Buying and selling on TGP (and elsewhere)

[Ahab3]

I recently killed a pending deal on a ***** because the seller wanted a gift payment, or for me to cover his PayPal fees; both violations the PayPal user agreement, my buyer's protection, and common sense.

Really, why would I give up my rights for him to save a few bucks? Conversely, why should I pay his seller's fees for him? He's the seller, its his idea to sell the damn thing, why do I have to pay for the item, and his bills too? If I wanted to do that, I'd just walk into a store. At least in a store, I'd have some buyers protection...

Below is the letter I didn't send him, but was thinking about when I wrote the letter I did send him (a simple no thanks and good luck).

I mention this as a suggestion to everyone here to act with integrity, do the right thing, not be a douche bag, etc...

Oh, and just to mess with your heads a bit more: Minors are legally unable to enter into any contract without explicit permission from their legal guardians... This means, if you purchase something here from a minor, and he screws you over, you have no legal recourse to pursue for restitution. Especially if you send him a 'gift'.

---Enjoy!---

That is a good price for the ******, however you should be aware that you are violating PayPal terms and agreement by requesting personal payment for this item, or by requiring the buyer to cover your PayPal fees.

If I was a PayPal employee, I could have your personal payment option removed from your PayPal account, and possibly, have your account closed for violating the agreement you 'signed' when you opened your PayPal account. (Don't worry, I'm neither a PayPal employee, nor a snitch; your 'secret' is safe with me.)

However, by asking me (the buyer) to either trust you as a stranger to not screw me when I give you a gift payment for an item (something you already agreed with PayPal you would never do); or by insisting that I (the buyer) cover your PayPal seller fees (fees you already agreed with PayPal you'd cover as the buyer), implicates and includes me in scamming PayPal. Something I don't care to do.

I suppose it's a question of honor, integrity and self protection. Why would I want to give my money to a stranger who admittedly behaves without integrity or honor. That would make me a fool.

So, I guess I will neither give you a gift payment for the **** and thus revoke all my buyers rights with PayPal (the reason I'm using the service :rolleyes:) nor will I pay your sellers fee and break the PayPal users agreement (and thus scam myself out of more money by paying your bills for you).

Hypothetically speaking:
If you really want someone else to pay your fees for you; simply include it in the price, but don't mention it. For instance, if you had offered the item for "$155 PayPal, shipped USPS, lower 48 states", instead of $150 as a gift payment or plus PayPal fees, I would have snapped it up happily. You would never have needed to tell me you're 'charging' me for the fee PayPal is charging you, and neither of us would have to worry about getting screwed over because we would then both be protected by PayPal.

Good faith is hard to come by these days. No one trusts people to act fairly, because people continually behave unfairly. I don't charge others the fees imposed on me for the convenience of playing merchant without having to pay sales tax. I don't charge them shipping fees either unless its out of country or oversized. I simply offer a price I think is fair, and I have no problem gaining trust and selling the gear I no longer use to people who happily will.

So, after reading PayPal's user agreement, I'm not really comfortable with either option. You may want to read it too, just for your own protection.

From user agreement, section 4.1: "If you are selling goods or services, you may not ask the buyer to send you a Personal Payment for the purchase. If you do so, PayPal may remove your ability to accept Personal Payments. "

From user agreement, section 4.5: "You agree that you will not impose a surcharge or any other fee for accepting PayPal as a payment method. You may charge a handling fee in connection with the sale of goods or services, as long as the handling fee does not operate as a surcharge and is not higher than the handling fee you charge for non-PayPal transactions. "

Good luck with the sale, I hope PayPal never finds out you're ripping them off.

Cheers.

[High Gain Junkie]

Include paypal fees in your selling price? What a great idea, and an idea that many seem to have a problem with. I just don't get it either.

[thornie]

Agreed. I only asked for a gift payment once, and it was during a local deal. The buyer said "no" and I said "Ok!". I usually always include paypal and shipping fees in my asking price.

[Ahab3]

Thanks, glad I'm not the only one here (amongst 100's of 1000's of users) that feels this way.

Also, I hold no animosity towards the seller in the above story (its why I didn't send the above testimonial to him/her); and I certainly am not implying he/she is without honor (I don't know em). But the deal itself is without integrity, and so I can't participate. And I thought others may feel the same, so that's why this thread exists.

Here is the most efficient and fair way (I think) to sell online:

1. offer a fair market price for the item (including one that covers your costs, if you feel the need for it)

2. show a recent photo of the item and describe it accurately (if it's not in mint condition ie, unopened/unused, don't say its 'minty', that's just fraudulent)

3. ask for PayPal and offer specific shipping (USPS, UPS, whatever) and a tracking number (or charge for shipping if out of country or too expensive to cover yourself; and again, add it to the asking price above)

4. accept payment and ship ASAP. (you got your money immediately, its only fair the buyer gets the item right away too.)

5. email the tracking number to the buyer as soon as you get it so the buyer knows right away he made a good deal (you know, didn't get jacked) and when to expect delivery.

Easy peasy! This will build your reputation of being honest and efficient; and will help future sales tremendously.

Man, I don't know why I'm on such a soapbox today... :p

[Pax]

I've walked on a deal b/c seller wanted gift and then, when I said no, wanted 3% more. It reminds me of when I first started in sales. A customer was trying to do business with me and I couldn't get out of my own way. He finally stopped me and said in his thick NY accent, "Why are you making it hard for me to do business with you"? Same thing.

[bullfrogblues]

That's one reason I don't use Paypal for these type transactions. I use it for inexpensive Ebay items for buy-it-now or not at all. Just this week my credit card, which I use only with the Paypal acct, was hacked and someone tried to purchase over $500 worth of goods from New Egg. Fortunately, the fraud dept of the credit card bank somehow was alerted to the deal and shut down the credit card immediately, then called to confirm whether or not I was trying to make the purchase. No more Paypal for me. It might not be their fault, but we never used that card for anything else. Somewhere in the chain it was stolen.

[Jazzydave]

I've bought and sold many guitars (and other gear) on here using the "gift" or "personal" payment. That being said, there's a circle of us that have known each other for awhile now and have either done deals in the past or are at least reputable enough to be trusted within that circle.

I understand PP's "safety" when using it to buy something...but what about sending someone a check, certified pmt, etc? There are still sellers who prefer a direct payment vs. PP.

I had a situation last year where I'm glad I used PP but even then, all they did on their end was suspend the seller's account. That also lead to him being banned on various forums and even eBay. All in all though, the money I got back mainly came from my bank because I reported him as a fraud since I never received the guitar I paid for (this went on for several months).

So, it all comes down to trust. If it's someone you've developed a relationship with someone on here (or elsewhere), I don't see why it's a big deal. If I meet them in person, I usually pay in cash or even PP without fees. If I've never done a deal with them, the situation could in any way be questionable, or I'm not 100% sure of the deal, I go the standard route.

I don't understand why this is brought up so often on TGP...and why people get so upset by sellers asking to get an extra 3% for PP. It's a service and if you're paying through PP for the protection, then that's your opportunity cost.

[newb3fan]

Thanks, glad I'm not the only one here (amongst 100's of 1000's of users) that feels this way.

Also, I hold no animosity towards the seller in the above story (its why I didn't send the above testimonial to him/her); and I certainly am not implying he/she is without honor (I don't know em). But the deal itself is without integrity, and so I can't participate. And I thought others may feel the same, so I that's why this thread exists.

Here is the most efficient and fair way (I think) to sell online:

1. offer a fair market price for the item (including one that covers your costs, if you feel the need for it)

2. show a recent photo of the item and describe it accurately (if it's not in mint condition ie, unopened/unused, don't say its 'minty', that's just fraudulent)

3. ask for PayPal and offer specific shipping (USPS, UPS, whatever) and a tracking number (or charge for shipping if out of country or too expensive to cover yourself; and again, add it to the asking price above)

4. accept payment and ship ASAP. (you got your money immediately, its only fair the buyer gets the item right away too.)

5. email the tracking number to the buyer as soon as you get it so the buyer knows right away he made a good deal (you know, didn't get jacked) and when to expect delivery.

Easy peasy! This will build your reputation of being honest and efficient; and will help future sales tremendously.

Man, I don't know why I'm on such a soapbox today... :p

I agree with you. I'm not into the gift thing. It's not the way to go.

I would add a 3a) to this:
Treat all prospective buyers with an opportunity for first right of refusal on a first come, first served basis. I just think it's common courtesy that if a potential buyer engage first with a potential seller and then buyer #2 comes along, that buyer #1 get an opportunity to close the deal to the satisfaction of the seller before the seller moves on.

This didn't happen with me as a buyer just this past week. No biggie in the grand scheme of things. But whenever I sell anything I always stack the potential buyers in the order they contacted me and give them first right of refusal before moving to the next person. I guess that's just the way I do it.

[rhinocaster]

I've bought and sold many guitars (and other gear) on here using the "gift" or "personal" payment. That being said, there's a circle of us that have known each other for awhile now and have either done deals in the past or are at least reputable enough to be trusted within that circle.

I understand PP's "safety" when using it to buy something...but what about sending someone a check, certified pmt, etc? There are still sellers who prefer a direct payment vs. PP.

I had a situation last year where I'm glad I used PP but even then, all they did on their end was suspend the seller's account. That also lead to him being banned on various forums and even eBay. All in all though, the money I got back mainly came from my bank because I reported him as a fraud since I never received the guitar I paid for (this went on for several months).

So, it all comes down to trust. If it's someone you've developed a relationship with someone on here (or elsewhere), I don't see why it's a big deal. If I meet them in person, I usually pay in cash or even PP without fees. If I've never done a deal with them, the situation could in any way be questionable, or I'm not 100% sure of the deal, I go the standard route.

I don't understand why this is brought up so often on TGP...and why people get so upset by sellers asking to get an extra 3% for PP. It's a service and if you're paying through PP for the protection, then that's your opportunity cost.

Dave, I don't get upset when a seller wants me to pay their fees, I just move on.

It really is as simple as the fact that we all agreed to pay the fees when we sell using Paypal. We all agreed to it as part of the service. We agreed to it. If people are using the service, why would anyone expect the buyer to pay the fees? We didn't agree to that.

I pay when I sell. I absolutely will not pay when I buy. :)

And sellers aren't doing themselves any favors on TGP when they ask for GIFT or tell the buyer to add money for Paypal fees:

http://www.thegearpage.net/board/showthread.php?t=862218

[Melodyman]

Sellers should just build the fee into their price, and offer a discount if the buyer wants to pay via another method.

Sellers who parse out the separate fees/shipping costs so you have to do the math yourself turns me away immediately.

It's like those ads you see where you see a good price but then in small print additional charges that get tacked on lol.

[Floyd Eye]

I recently sold a pedal to a TGPer. He wanted to send payment to my PP account. I no longer have or want a PP account. I told him I preferred a money order. He said that was a deal breaker. So I told him I would ship him the pedal first, then he could send me a MO when he got it. A little risky, but it's a little risky either way isn't it. Nevertheless it turned out fine. He got the pedal and he mailed me my MO.

[Jazzydave]

Dave, I don't get upset when a seller wants me to pay their fees, I just move on.

It really is as simple as the fact that we all agreed to pay the fees when we sell using Paypal. We all agreed to it as part of the service. We agreed to it. If people are using the service, why would anyone expect the buyer to pay the fees? We didn't agree to that.

I pay when I sell. I absolutely will not pay when I buy. :)

I adhere to that same policy...but I do think there are certain cases that it doesn't apply. For example, when a buyer doesn't prefer PP as a primary payment...like when they want a cashier's check/money order (or similar) and they offer PP as a courtesy.

On the other hand, if it pushes the gear over the amount worth paying for by the buyer, ah, move on...

[Jazzydave]

I recently sold a pedal to a TGPer. He wanted to send payment to my PP account. I no longer have or want a PP account. I told him I preferred a money order. He said that was a deal breaker. So I told him I would ship him the pedal first, then he could send me a MO when he got it. A little risky, but it's a little risky either way isn't it. Nevertheless it turned out fine. He got the pedal and he mailed me my MO.

That's a great example of what I just said. Any online deal is a risk...and you can't always depend on PP to bail you out of a jam. I know that first hand. It was months before they'd do anything in my case...and even then, it was still pulling teeth. Everyone's mileage is different, I'm sure...but...

Again, if the 3-4% up-charge is worth a calmed mind, go for it. I do it every once in awhile even knowing how the process works from direct experience.

[Floyd Eye]

Seems to me a place like this is safer than PP anyway. If someone here screws you, you can always out them here. I guess if the $50 is more important then their reputation here you are gonna get screwed, but in my experience dealing with people here or at TB or other forums, I have never been screwed yet. YMMV

[Jazzydave]

Seems to me a place like this is safer than PP anyway. If someone here screws you, you can always out them here. I guess if the $50 is more important then their reputation here you are gonna get screwed, but in my experience dealing with people here or at TB or other forums, I have never been screwed yet. YMMV

I've been told that before actually...because of the music and my social involvement, I had one guy say, "Dave, it's not like I couldn't find you!" it would take some serious net cleansing for me to disappear...haha.

Get a phone number, Google the address to make sure it's legit, etc, etc.

[tapeworm]

At this point I'd say it is advisable to never use the "gift" or "payment owed" option when making a purchase. Even if you know the person you are dealing with, if the deal goes bad, your chances of getting a refund is slim to none. Trust me, I got burned on a tgp deal gone bad, paid with the "payment owed" method at the suggestion of the seller and now I am out $2250. Tough way to learn this lesson. If you want the item bad enough, PAY THE FEES.

[78deluxe]

That is a good price for the ******, .
So he offered a nice price for a direct, cash style transaction. But it isn't worth 2.9% more to you to get buyer protection coverage.

There are a number of ways to get around the situation without getting upset about it.

[SuperSonic]

No paypal protection, no deal.

[shredtrash]

No paypal protection, no deal.

Simple as that.

[bsuite]

I've bought and sold many guitars (and other gear) on here using the "gift" or "personal" payment. That being said, there's a circle of us that have known each other for awhile now and have either done deals in the past or are at least reputable enough to be trusted within that circle.

I understand PP's "safety" when using it to buy something...but what about sending someone a check, certified pmt, etc? There are still sellers who prefer a direct payment vs. PP.

I had a situation last year where I'm glad I used PP but even then, all they did on their end was suspend the seller's account. That also lead to him being banned on various forums and even eBay. All in all though, the money I got back mainly came from my bank because I reported him as a fraud since I never received the guitar I paid for (this went on for several months).

So, it all comes down to trust. If it's someone you've developed a relationship with someone on here (or elsewhere), I don't see why it's a big deal. If I meet them in person, I usually pay in cash or even PP without fees. If I've never done a deal with them, the situation could in any way be questionable, or I'm not 100% sure of the deal, I go the standard route.

I don't understand why this is brought up so often on TGP...and why people get so upset by sellers asking to get an extra 3% for PP. It's a service and if you're paying through PP for the protection, then that's your opportunity cost.

You do realize you lose all credibility by cheating PP out of their fee?
Why is this OK?
You agreed to their policy didn't you?
You sir & your "Trusted" friends are being dishonest.

And Yes PP is a service, so YOU can get your money NOW.
Again YOU agreed to PP's terms of service for YOU to use.

[Pietro]

...If you really want someone else to pay your fees for you; simply include it in the price, but don't mention it...

YES!

[neville5000]

I just include PP fees and shipping in my price, or consider it the cost to easily sell something. A few times people have gifted me monies, but I never ask for it. Luckily, I haven't been scammed on this site - knock on wood.

[Gas-man]

You do realize you lose all credibility by cheating PP out of their fee?
Why is this OK?
You agreed to their policy didn't you?
You sir & your "Trusted" friends are being dishonest.

And Yes PP is a service, so YOU can get your money NOW.
Again YOU agreed to PP's terms of service for YOU to use.


Will be interesting to hear the response to this.

Big time :munchon this post!

[fuzz_factor]

I would add a 3a) to this:
Treat all prospective buyers with an opportunity for first right of refusal on a first come, first served basis. I just think it's common courtesy that if a potential buyer engage first with a potential seller and then buyer #2 comes along, that buyer #1 get an opportunity to close the deal to the satisfaction of the seller before the seller moves on.


I agree that a, "Hey - I have another buyer, do you still want this?" PM is common courtesy, but every single person who has asked me to "hold" something has subsequently backed out of the deal. Money talks and bullsh*t walks, as they say (not that I'm implying that is what went on with your deal). ;)

[michael.e]

I've bought and sold many guitars (and other gear) on here using the "gift" or "personal" payment. That being said, there's a circle of us that have known each other for awhile now and have either done deals in the past or are at least reputable enough to be trusted within that circle.

I understand PP's "safety" when using it to buy something...but what about sending someone a check, certified pmt, etc? There are still sellers who prefer a direct payment vs. PP.

I had a situation last year where I'm glad I used PP but even then, all they did on their end was suspend the seller's account. That also lead to him being banned on various forums and even eBay. All in all though, the money I got back mainly came from my bank because I reported him as a fraud since I never received the guitar I paid for (this went on for several months).

So, it all comes down to trust. If it's someone you've developed a relationship with someone on here (or elsewhere), I don't see why it's a big deal. If I meet them in person, I usually pay in cash or even PP without fees. If I've never done a deal with them, the situation could in any way be questionable, or I'm not 100% sure of the deal, I go the standard route.

I don't understand why this is brought up so often on TGP...and why people get so upset by sellers asking to get an extra 3% for PP. It's a service and if you're paying through PP for the protection, then that's your opportunity cost.

This..

[therhodeo]

OP has been here less than a year and has less than 20 posts. I wouldn't deal with him anyway. :dunno

[sanhozay]

I recently killed a pending deal on a ***** because the seller wanted a gift payment, or for me to cover his PayPal fees; both violations the PayPal user agreement, my buyer's protection, and common sense.


did you negotiate a price discount?

it ain't rocket science. no matter where you go things are structured very simply when you buy from private sellers, or people on commissions. the more they give/save you the more they take away from themselves. in that case, you better be worth it. or you better be opened to a more "copasetic" arrangement.



and - what the feck does this have to do with the sound hound lounge?

[Two-Octave]

OP has been here less than a year and has less than 20 posts. I wouldn't deal with him anyway. :dunno

I've been here longer than you and have fewer posts. What does that mean?

[therhodeo]

I've been here longer than you and have fewer posts. What does that mean?

I had a boring job for 3 years with unmonitored web access. :rotflmao

[Jazzydave]

You do realize you lose all credibility by cheating PP out of their fee?
Why is this OK?
You agreed to their policy didn't you?
You sir & your "Trusted" friends are being dishonest.

And Yes PP is a service, so YOU can get your money NOW.
Again YOU agreed to PP's terms of service for YOU to use.

You sir, are being judgmental. (haha, sorry, I couldn't resist)

I understand why you'd think that. Did you miss where I said that I do use the standard PP method in many cases? The guys I'm talking about are trusted friends and we buy, trade, and sell to one another quite often. I have no problem paying the fees when I'm using a card or am not doing a transaction with that circle. What's the point of the "money owed" option? I feel like PP added flexibility to their options for these reasons.

I use PP to process all of my online physical album sales along with several other options through my and my wife's site...all of which I have no problem paying the fees for.

[rhinocaster]

You sir, are being judgmental. (haha, sorry, I couldn't resist)

I understand why you'd think that. Did you miss where I said that I do use the standard PP method in many cases? The guys I'm talking about are trusted friends and we buy, trade, and sell to one another quite often. I have no problem paying the fees when I'm using a card or am not doing a transaction with that circle. What's the point of the "money owed" option? I feel like PP added flexibility to their options for these reasons.

I use PP to process all of my online physical album sales along with several other options through my and my wife's site...all of which I have no problem paying the fees for.

You KNOW that Paypal didn't add this flexibility to help customer avoid fees when purchasing goods.

Here's what Paypal has to say about the payment types.

What are the payment types when I send money?
The payment types for a purchase are:
Services: to pay for things like your internet service.
Goods: to pay for non-eBay goods.
eBay Items: to pay for your eBay purchases.

The payment types for a personal payment are:
Gift: to send money as a gift, like for a birthday.
Payment Owed: to pay your friend back for your share of a dinner bill, or other item that your friend paid for you.
Living Expense: to pay for things like rent or utilities.
Other: for other reasons that are not a purchase of good or services.


Why is it ever acceptable to use the service and lie about the the type of transaction in order to avoid fees? I don't understand that.

[bsuite]

You sir, are being judgmental. (haha, sorry, I couldn't resist)

I understand why you'd think that. Did you miss where I said that I do use the standard PP method in many cases? The guys I'm talking about are trusted friends and we buy, trade, and sell to one another quite often. I have no problem paying the fees when I'm using a card or am not doing a transaction with that circle. What's the point of the "money owed" option? I feel like PP added flexibility to their options for these reasons.

I use PP to process all of my online physical album sales along with several other options through my and my wife's site...all of which I have no problem paying the fees for.

No need to judge you, you judged yourself by your actions.
You still don't see what your doing as wrong either.
Nothing more to be said.

[Jazzydave]

You KNOW that Paypal didn't add this flexibility to help customer avoid fees when purchasing goods.

Here's what Paypal has to say about the payment types.

What are the payment types when I send money?
The payment types for a purchase are:
Services: to pay for things like your internet service.
Goods: to pay for non-eBay goods.
eBay Items: to pay for your eBay purchases.

The payment types for a personal payment are:
Gift: to send money as a gift, like for a birthday.
Payment Owed: to pay your friend back for your share of a dinner bill, or other item that your friend paid for you.
Living Expense: to pay for things like rent or utilities.
Other: for other reasons that are not a purchase of good or services.


Why is it ever acceptable to use the service and lie about the the type of transaction in order to avoid fees? I don't understand that.

I understand what you're saying and don't disagree with it. I guess the "Payment Owed" option can be taken a few different ways. I'd never use that option to pay a store or legitimate business of any kind. Picking up a guitar off a friend of mine? That's a gray area to me I guess.

Again, I can't stress enough that I use it in many transactions and I don't have anything against them getting their cut for their service.

[Jazzydave]

No need to judge you, you judged yourself by your actions.
You still don't see what your doing as wrong either.
Nothing more to be said.

You see it your way, I see it mine. No worries...and again, using the "Payment Owed" to a friend doesn't seem to break any rules to me. What's the difference between them fronting you some cash and you paying them back and taking a guitar off their hands?

It's a rare case that this actually happens - maybe once or twice a year. Every other time (which is often), I use the standard method. I don't understand why out of all of the people who agree with me and have said they do the same thing, I've become the scapegoat...maybe bc I don't mind saying that I'd help out a friend by saving him/her a few bucks when I can?

I've actually asked PP about this before because they flagged my account after doing it. You know what happened? They never asked me about it again. So, again...gray area? I guess it depends on when it's being done honestly between friends or dishonestly through businesses, etc.

[Ahab3]

Dave, I don't get upset when a seller wants me to pay their fees, I just move on.

It really is as simple as the fact that we all agreed to pay the fees when we sell using Paypal. We all agreed to it as part of the service. We agreed to it. If people are using the service, why would anyone expect the buyer to pay the fees? We didn't agree to that.

I pay when I sell. I absolutely will not pay when I buy. :)

And sellers aren't doing themselves any favors on TGP when they ask for GIFT or tell the buyer to add money for Paypal fees:

http://www.thegearpage.net/board/showthread.php?t=862218

I too, agree.

So he offered a nice price for a direct, cash style transaction. But it isn't worth 2.9% more to you to get buyer protection coverage.

There are a number of ways to get around the situation without getting upset about it.

Your missing the point. Those are sellers fees... They are there to ensure and guarantee a sale. Seller initiates sell, seller is responsible for sellers fees. This really isn't a difficult concept to understand. And, agreed, nothing to get upset about... until someone gets screwed of course. ;)

You do realize you lose all credibility by cheating PP out of their fee?
Why is this OK?
You agreed to their policy didn't you?
You sir & your "Trusted" friends are being dishonest.

And Yes PP is a service, so YOU can get your money NOW.
Again YOU agreed to PP's terms of service for YOU to use.

This outlines the intended spirit of this thread. Honesty and integrity. Its what separates the 'good' guys from the 'bad' guys; to grotesquely oversimplify it.

OP has been here less than a year and has less than 20 posts. I wouldn't deal with him anyway. :dunno

Thanks for the heads up! :)

You see it your way, I see it mine. No worries...and again, using the "Payment Owed" to a friend doesn't seem to break any rules to me. What's the difference between them fronting you some cash and you paying them back and taking a guitar off their hands?

It's a rare case that this actually happens - maybe once or twice a year. Every other time (which is often), I use the standard method. I don't understand why out of all of the people who agree with me and have said they do the same thing, I've become the scapegoat...maybe bc I don't mind saying that I'd help out a friend by saving him/her a few bucks when I can?

I've actually asked PP about this before because they flagged my account after doing it. You know what happened? They never asked me about it again. So, again...gray area? I guess it depends on when it's being done honestly between friends or dishonestly through businesses, etc.

The gift method seems intended for use in just this way. If a friend needs cash, you can send it to them without worry of fees or it getting lost in the mail or whatever. Its a nice service PayPal offers, for free.

Buying and selling goods to strangers using this method abuses PayPal's user policy that the user agreed to, which is dishonest.

Doing business with dishonest people is self defeating, rewards dishonest behavior, and perpetuates it by making it lucrative; which is socially destructive (competition goes up, cooperation goes down).

Sending money to a friend for free is awesome... Banks don't offer that service. Buying something from someone you never met and knowing that your money is safe in the off chance they try to screw you is also awesome.

Asking a stranger to pay your fees for you so that they have the confidence to buy from you after you already agreed not to charge such a fee is dishonest.

Its like saying, 'Hey, you don't want me to rip you off? Then pay my PayPal fee. Don't want to pay my fee? Then help me save 3%, rip off PayPal by using the gift method, and toss all your buyers rights under your delete key.

I've bought and sold a ton of stuff online. This is the first place I've seen this behaviour normalized amongst 'honest' folk, so do forgive me if I seem a bit stiff about it. Of course, if others feel the same, and we simply stop buying from those that wish to behave this way... I suspect those that sell honest will have no problem trading, while those that don't will be forced to follow suit or keep their used gear to themselves.

Just a thought.

[Gas-man]

You see it your way, I see it mine. No worries...and again, using the "Payment Owed" to a friend doesn't seem to break any rules to me.


Where does the user agreement say that it matters WHO you are buying from?

You aren't supposed to use it for purchases.

And you seem to be defining "friend" rather broadly. A guy you bought a custom shop Les Paul from 2 years ago across the country that you have never met is a friend.

Man is a rationalizing animal.

Hey we all do it!

[S.W.Erdnase]

Include paypal fees in your selling price? What a great idea, and an idea that many seem to have a problem with. I just don't get it either.

Totally agree. It's not rocket science.

[HerrRentz]

Paypal should split the percentage for the fee between buyer and seller.

After all, both are taking advantage of the Paypal service.

But that would make too much sense.

[stratotastic]

What I find funny are the guys that ask for gift on a $100 pedal.

Really?

If you can't swing the extra 3 bucks for paypal, maybe you shouldn't be buying/selling guitar gear as a hobby in the first place.

[buddaman71]

^ Exactly right ^

I ran a retail music store for years, and musicians (guitarists in particular) are the tightest bunch of tightwads in the universe. ;)

[darkstar11]

Ha,,Exactly..



What I find funny are the guys that ask for gift on a $100 pedal.

Really?

If you can't swing the extra 3 bucks for paypal, maybe you shouldn't be buying/selling guitar gear as a hobby in the first place.

[78deluxe]

Your missing the point. Those are sellers fees... They are there to ensure and guarantee a sale. Seller initiates sell, seller is responsible for sellers fees. This really isn't a difficult concept to understand. And, agreed, nothing to get upset about... until someone gets screwed of course. ;)



Well the "fee" doesn't protect the seller, it protects the buyer in these instances, correct?

It is called a seller fee...but seems a little strange as such. Especially if the money is coming out of the account as a "cash" style transaction.

[bcgraphicsguy]

Don't believe the hype....unless you are buying with Paypal on Ebay....you aren't anymore protected no matter which option you choose....

[pete692]

:agreeYay! Good to see the gift payment controversy is still alive and well.

[bluemonk]

Don't believe the hype....unless you are buying with Paypal on Ebay....you aren't anymore protected no matter which option you choose....

You may not be protected by Paypal itself, but with PP you can use a credit card, which does offer protection.

[Floyd Eye]

OP has been here less than a year and has less than 20 posts. I wouldn't deal with him anyway. :dunno


Understandable. That is precisely why I took the chance and sent the pedal ahead first.

[kurtsstuff]

I go through alot of gear...I buy alot of gear. I've been looking for a few things and have found them on this forum and on others but, Seems when I get down to where the seller list the price I read "PP Gift" or "Plus shipping and PP fee's" I immediately lose interest in "their" gear they are selling. Tells me alot about the seller..especially the gift thing

[Steve Snider]

I go through alot of gear...I buy alot of gear. I've been looking for a few things and have found them on this forum and on others but, Seems when I get down to where the seller list the price I read "PP Gift" or "Plus shipping and PP fee's" I immediately lose interest in "their" gear they are selling. Tells me alot about the seller..especially the gift thing

Totally agree!

[Jazzydave]

I go through alot of gear...I buy alot of gear. I've been looking for a few things and have found them on this forum and on others but, Seems when I get down to where the seller list the price I read "PP Gift" or "Plus shipping and PP fee's" I immediately lose interest in "their" gear they are selling. Tells me alot about the seller..especially the gift thing

For whatever it's worth, I always list my gear with the PP fees included...and offer an appropriate discount for buyers who would like to pay via methods that don't include fees (money order, cashier's check, personal check, cash, etc).

[fjblair]

I go through alot of gear...I buy alot of gear. I've been looking for a few things and have found them on this forum and on others but, Seems when I get down to where the seller list the price I read "PP Gift" or "Plus shipping and PP fee's" I immediately lose interest in "their" gear they are selling. Tells me alot about the seller..especially the gift thing

Same here. I don't want to do business with either. PP Gift guy looks shifty and the "buyer pays the seller fee" guy comes across as the not very negotiable type. Right or wrong that is how it appears to me and I just move on.

As far as the PP gift thing goes there is no gray area really, if you are selling something you are supposed to pay the seller fee. Not that I wouldn't be above avoiding it if I sold something to a "friend" but if it was really me friend they would just send me check.

[rhinocaster]

We have regular businesses that are now expecting the buyer to cover credit card fees.

The simple truth is that the majority of those asking the buyer to pay the fees when they're selling do NOT demand or even offer to pay the fees when they're buying.

It's not about negotiation, it's about doing what you've agreed to do. It really is that simple.

[edwarddavis]

Every deal on here is different. I have
Bought lots of stuff on this site.
Obviously its at my own risk. But the seller can
ask what ever they wish. Its your choice to buy it
Or move on.

[rhinocaster]

Every deal on here is different. I have
Bought lots of stuff on this site.
Obviously its at my own risk. But the seller can
ask what ever they wish. Its your choice to buy it
Or move on.

The point really is that the seller cannot ask whatever they wish. If they ask the buyer to pay their fees, their in violation of their Paypal agreement.

I'm always amazed that what people agree to ultimately means nothing.

[philiprst]

I am not convinced that a seller asking for a price + paypal fees is any different from a seller asking for a price + shipping fees. It's a clear offer to sell at a certain sum of money. It will also, in some cases, offer the buyer an option of using another method of payment or a local cash sale with the savings passed on to the buyer. If the seller included the fees or shipping in a single price would we then get bent out of shape because the seller is now implying that he pockets any shipping savings or fees?

As a buyer all that really matters is the total price you pay. If you pass over a possible deal because of the way the price is split then I would suggest that you may be missing out on some otherwise good deals. It is the same type of argument I have seen here over the inclusion of photos: often the best deal is for stuff without photos because the competition is less.

As far as the "gift"option is concerned, you don't pay a fee because Paypal is not providing the protection service you get with the regular paypal transaction. It's no different that making the choice to send a postal money order with the same minimal level of protection. I wouldn't do that with a private seller which is why I don't use the gift option.

Finally, I suspect that 95% of all significant transactions here involve some degree of negotiation over price and so however the seller splits the price doesn't really matter: it is all up for grabs and in the end the buyer and seller come up with a mutual agreement.

[rhinocaster]

I am not convinced that a seller asking for a price + paypal fees is any different from a seller asking for a price + shipping fees. It's a clear offer to sell at a certain sum of money. It will also, in some cases, offer the buyer an option of using another method of payment or a local cash sale with the savings passed on to the buyer. If the seller included the fees or shipping in a single price woud we them get bent out of shape because the seller is now implying that he pockets any shipping savings or fees?

As a buyer all that really matters is the total price you pay. If you pass over a possible deal because of the way the price is split then I would suggest that you may be missing out on some otherwise good deals. It is the same type of argument I have seen here over the inclusion of photos: often the best deal is for stuff without photos because the competition is less.

As far as the "gift"option is concerned, you don't pay a fee because Paypal is not providing the protection service you get with the regular paypal transaction. It's no different that making the choice to send a postal money order with the same minimal level of protection. I wouldn't do that with a private seller which is why I don't use the gift option.

Again, the seller agreed to pay the fees associated with Paypal if they accept Paypal. That alone makes it different than any other kind of added fees (like shipping) that ARE negotiable.

We're living in an age where people are trying to make an argument for not doing what they agreed to do when they signed up for a service. Ultimately this would work out to the disadvantage of those that actually DO follow through with what they agree to do.

Of course GIFT is a difference than sending a money order. Again, you agreed to not use GIFT for the purchase of goods. Why does this not matter?

[philiprst]

Again, the seller agreed to pay the fees associated with Paypal if they accept Paypal. That alone makes it different than any other kind of added fees (like shipping) that ARE negotiable.

We're living in an age where people are trying to make an argument for not doing what they agreed to do when they signed up for a service. Ultimately this would work out to the disadvantage of those that actually DO follow through with what they agree to do.

Of course GIFT is a difference than sending a money order. Again, you agreed to not use GIFT for the purchase of goods. Why does this not matter?

The seller is paying the fees on the total amount received from the buyer and is therefore in compliance with the Paypal policy they agreed to. Paypal has no interest or control in how that amount was agreed to between the buyer and seller. There is no moral hazard here.

On the gift issue, you are half right. The seller cannot require that a paypal payment for goods be sent as a gift as a condition of using paypal. However, the buyer can choose to transmit a gift payment to anyone they want on the understanding that it does not constitute a transaction in the eyes of Paypal with all the attendant risks and zero protection.

[bullfrogblues]

I mentioned earlier in this thread about my credit card problem, but back to Paypal, I didn't use it for anything over $50. Everything else the buyer or me uses Postal money orders, and that's it. If you don't like that, you don't buy from or sell to me, period.

[rhinocaster]

The seller is paying the fees on the total amount received from the buyer and is therefore in compliance with the Paypal policy they agreed to. Paypal has no interest or control in how that amount was agreed to between the buyer and seller. There is no moral hazard here.

On the gift issue, you are half right. The seller cannot require that a paypal payment for goods be sent as a gift as a condition of using paypal. However, the buyer can choose to transmit a gift payment to anyone they want on the understanding that it does not constitute a transaction in the eyes of Paypal with all the attendant risks and zero protection.

No, the seller AGREED to not charge the buyer more money for using Paypal when then signed up. The seller is absolutely NOT in compliance if they say that the buyer is responsible for Paypal fees. It really is that simple. You can give a discount for cash buyers (just like businesses do) but you can't ask for more money to cover the fees. If you do, you're not in compliance.

On the subject of GIFT, I'm not half right. You agree to not use gift for the purchase of goods with Paypal. It's used for gifts. That's it. Buying goods is not a gift.

[blownirocz]

I will say only two things:


You are completely delusional if you believe Paypal can ACTUALLY protect you from an unscrupulous seller. Paypal has no actual vested interest in protecting you as the buyer (or the seller for that matter). They may give the proper lip service to protecting the buyer in their T's & C's, but from their perspective, they are neutral. Moreover, why would they WANT to refund the 3%? That's their business model.


The best protection is common sense. Do business with people that:


Have references that you can verify
Are willing to speak to you on the phone
Have been a member for a while
Your senses tell you are decent human beings

[chucke99]

Oh please. Asking for a buyer to cover your PayPal fees is just a way to make your selling price appear to be 3% lower than it should be. If you need to net $1000 for the guitar, don't settle for less than $1,030 and pay the fees yourself. On the other hand, no one should get too bent out of shape if they're asked to cover the fees, because you just add 3% to what you're paying the seller. PayPal buyer protection still covers you.

Now, asking someone to "gift" you the money makes you appear to be a shallow seller, more interested in skipping the 3% fee (or avoiding taxes) than offering the buyer the protections they deserve. And if you're a buyer, just refuse to use the gift option. If you really, really want the guitar, offer to add 3% to the purchase price and go through the normal PayPal process.

Best thing, though, IMO, is for the seller to just use PayPal the way they intend for it to be used by merchants, and for buyers to adhere to that process as well.

[fjblair]

I will say only two things:


You are completely delusional if you believe Paypal can ACTUALLY protect you from an unscrupulous seller. Paypal has no actual vested interest in protecting you as the buyer (or the seller for that matter). They may give the proper lip service to protecting the buyer in their T's & C's, but from their perspective, they are neutral. Moreover, why would they WANT to refund the 3%? That's their business model.
The best protection is common sense. Do business with people that:



Have references that you can verify
Are willing to speak to you on the phone
Have been a member for a while
Your senses tell you are decent human beings



Agreed that common sense should be the guide.

Totally disagree about PP. They have a HUGE vested interest in ensuring that buyers aren't ripped off. They will not exist if there is rampant fraud, period. It has to be a top priority.

[chucke99]

Agreed that common sense should be the guide.

Totally disagree about PP. They have a HUGE vested interest in ensuring that buyers aren't ripped off. They will not exist if there is rampant fraud, period. It has to be a top priority.

Agree on PP. Want to get your money back on a PP purchase? If the seller doesn't use delivery confirmation and can't produce it, PP will not accept the item as delivered and will refund your money. I always ship with delivery confirmation and insurance using USPS, and always specify that I require a signature on delivery. I will not send it any other way. That's why I also don't ship international, because the chain of possession gets lost going over the border.

Oh, and I don't tag those charges on to the sale price after the fact. I just include them in the cost of shipping (which is always disclosed in the listing).

[Paul R Remark]

I usually try to work something out that is agreeable to both parties. I list the goods I sell at (what I think) are very low prices- which makes stuff sell quickly, and everyone is happy. I have given away plenty of stuff on this forum and always throw something extra into the deal for free. I have met a lot of great people here! PRR

[Paleolith54]

If they ask the buyer to pay their fees, their (sic) in violation of their Paypal agreement.

I'm always amazed that what people agree to ultimately means nothing.

The logic here escapes me. I'm pretty sure PP could care less where the seller gets the money for the fee, since there are no stipulations of such in the seller/PP agreement. As long as the fees get paid, sellers are not violating anything whether they get the money from the buyer, from their Aunt Mabel, or find it on the sidewalk.

[blownirocz]

Agreed that common sense should be the guide.

Totally disagree about PP. They have a HUGE vested interest in ensuring that buyers aren't ripped off. They will not exist if there is rampant fraud, period. It has to be a top priority.

You have the right to disagree. But please understand that the information I am providing is not based on subjective opinion. It's based on pure factual evidence through two different experiences:


I was a high-level consultant for Paypal for a while. Cannot provide any additional details due to NDA but suffice it to say that I understand their business model, and internal policies pretty well.
I had an actual personal experience using Paypal that proved it out.

But I'm not here to convince anyone one way or the other...if you've had good experiences with it, great! I'm just cautioning against the false sense of security that most seem to have with Paypal.

[rhinocaster]

The logic here escapes me. I'm pretty sure PP could care less where the seller gets the money for the fee, since there are no stipulations of such in the seller/PP agreement. As long as the fees get paid, sellers are not violating anything whether they get the money from the buyer, from their Aunt Mabel, or find it on the sidewalk.

Of course PP cares.

Didn't you read what you signed up for? Sections 4.1 and 4.6 are particularly relevant to this discussion.

4. Receiving Money.
4.1 Receiving Personal Payments. If you are selling goods or services, you may not ask the buyer to send you a Personal Payment for the purchase. If you do so, PayPal may remove your ability to accept Personal Payments.

4.2 Use of PayPal on eBay. Sellers who offer PayPal as a payment method in their eBay listings must follow these requirements:

Accept PayPal if the eBay listing includes PayPal as a payment method.

Accept all PayPal Payment Methods from a buyer, including but not limited to eCheck and credit cards.

Accept international PayPal transactions if the eBay listing offers shipping outside the U.S.

Sellers may not charge a surcharge for accepting PayPal as a payment method.

4.3 Payment Review. Payment Review is a process by which PayPal reviews certain potentially high-risk transactions. If a payment is subject to Payment Review, PayPal will place a hold on the payment and provide notice to the Seller to delay shipping of the item. PayPal will conduct a review and either clear or cancel the payment. If the payment is cleared, PayPal will provide notice to the Seller to ship the item. Otherwise, PayPal will cancel the payment and the funds will be returned to the buyer. All payments that clear Payment Review will be eligible for PayPal Seller protection coverage if they meet the PayPal Seller protection requirements. PayPal will provide notices to you by email and in the History subtab of your Account.

4.4 Risk of Reversals, Chargebacks and Claims. When you receive a payment, you are liable to PayPal for the full amount of the payment sent to you plus any Fees if the payment is later invalidated for any reason. This means that, in addition to any other liability, you will be responsible for the amount of the payment sent by the sender, plus the applicable Fees listed in Section 8 (Fees) of this Agreement if you lose a Claim or a Chargeback, or if there is a Reversal of the payment. You agree to allow PayPal to recover any amounts due to PayPal by debiting your Balance. If there are insufficient funds in your Balance to cover your liability, you agree to reimburse PayPal through other means. If a sender of a payment files a Chargeback, the credit card issuer, not PayPal, will determine who wins the Chargeback.

4.5 Refund and Reversal Currencies. All refunds and reversals will be made in the same currency as the original transaction. If your transaction must be refunded or reversed and you do not have the correct currency available in your Balance, a currency conversion will be performed.

4.6 No Surcharges. You agree that you will not impose a surcharge or any other fee for accepting PayPal as a payment method. You may charge a handling fee in connection with the sale of goods or services, as long as the handling fee does not operate as a surcharge and is not higher than the handling fee you charge for non-PayPal transactions.

4.7 Taxes. It is your responsibility to determine what, if any, taxes apply to the payments you make or receive, and it is your responsibility to collect, report and remit the correct tax to the appropriate tax authority. PayPal is not responsible for determining whether taxes apply to your transaction, or for collecting, reporting or remitting any taxes arising from any transaction. You acknowledge that PayPal will report to the Internal Revenue Service the total amount of payments for goods and services you receive each calendar year into all the Accounts you own if you receive into these Accounts (i) more than $20,000 in payments for goods or services, and (ii) receive more than 200 payments for goods or services, in the same calendar year.

4.8 Receiving Payments from Student Accounts. PayPal may block your ability to receive payments from Student Accounts if you sell goods or services that may be illegal for minors to purchase under any applicable laws or regulations. This includes, but is not limited to, alcohol, tobacco or adult-oriented materials.

4.9 Your Refund Policy and Privacy Policy. If you sell goods or services, we recommend that you have a published return policy and a published privacy policy on your website or at your point of sale.

4.10 Receiving Preapproved Payments. If you receive Preapproved Payments, you must comply with the following requirements:

Authorization. You must receive your buyer’s prior Authorization for the amount, frequency, and duration of the Preapproved Payment. You must provide your buyer with notice of the amount and date of each Preapproved Payment at least 10 days before the transfer, unless the buyer has elected to receive notices only for varying amounts, as described in clause (b) below.
Notice Requirements for Varying Amounts. If the amount of the Preapproved Payment varies, you must provide your buyer with notice of the amount and date of each Preapproved Payment transfer at least 10 days before the transfer. You may also give the buyer the option to receive notice only when the amount of a Preapproved Payment falls outside a range that you and the buyer have agreed upon in advance. If the buyer has chosen to receive notices only for Preapproved Payments falling outside the agreed upon range, then you must send your buyer notice of the amount and date of those transfers at least 10 days before the transfer.
Required Stop Payment Procedures for Preapproved Payments. You must provide buyers with the ability to stop a Preapproved Payment up to 3 Business Days before the scheduled date of the Preapproved Payment. If a buyer has stopped or canceled a Preapproved Payment, you may not restart future payments without the written Authorization of the buyer. In addition, if your buyer signed up for the Preapproved Payment through an online method, you must provide a simple and easily accessible online cancellation procedure.
4.11 No Log-In Payments. If you receive No Log-In Payments you must receive your buyer’s Authorization for the payment amount prior to submitting the No Log-In Payment.

4.12 Micropayments for Digital Goods. To qualify to receive Micropayments for Digital Goods, you must submit an application, be approved by us, and have an Account in good standing. By applying for Micropayments for Digital Goods, you agree that for Digital Goods transactions you receive up to the amounts in the table below, if a buyer opens a Dispute, PayPal may reverse the transaction, and remove the funds from your Account without requiring the buyer to escalate the Dispute to a Claim.

Each buyer will be limited to a maximum of three such reversals per month and after reaching this limit will be required to follow PayPal’s standard dispute resolution process for any additional Disputes they file

[ss396]

My personal policy when I sell here is I include paypal and shipping. It just makes an easier decision for the purchaser, one price to pay.

[Paleolith54]

[QUOTE=rhinocaster;12246314]Of course PP cares.

Didn't you read what you signed up for? Sections 4.1 and 4.6 are particularly relevant to this discussion.

4. Receiving Money.
4.1 Receiving Personal Payments. If you are selling goods or services, you may not ask the buyer to send you a Personal Payment for the purchase. If you do so, PayPal may remove your ability to accept Personal Payments.



4.6 No Surcharges. You agree that you will not impose a surcharge or any other fee for accepting PayPal as a payment method. You may charge a handling fee in connection with the sale of goods or services, as long as the handling fee does not operate as a surcharge and is not higher than the handling fee you charge for non-PayPal transactions.

I see your point, but it doesn't change mine (perhaps badly stated), which is simply that there's nothing wrong with building into my price (as others have pointed out) coverage for the fees I know I have to pay, have agreed to pay, and will pay. This doesn't violate either provision, at least in my mind, nor does it constitute some short of shirking on my part.

Also, note that I was not entering the debate on the Gift option, as I'd agree that misusing that to avoid paying for a service you're using is wrong.

[rhinocaster]

[QUOTE=rhinocaster;12246314]Of course PP cares.

Didn't you read what you signed up for? Sections 4.1 and 4.6 are particularly relevant to this discussion.

4. Receiving Money.
4.1 Receiving Personal Payments. If you are selling goods or services, you may not ask the buyer to send you a Personal Payment for the purchase. If you do so, PayPal may remove your ability to accept Personal Payments.



4.6 No Surcharges. You agree that you will not impose a surcharge or any other fee for accepting PayPal as a payment method. You may charge a handling fee in connection with the sale of goods or services, as long as the handling fee does not operate as a surcharge and is not higher than the handling fee you charge for non-PayPal transactions.

I see your point, but it doesn't change mine (perhaps badly stated), which is simply that there's nothing wrong with building into my price (as others have pointed out) coverage for the fees I know I have to pay, have agreed to pay, and will pay. This doesn't violate either provision, at least in my mind, nor does it constitute some short of shirking on my part.

Also, note that I was not entering the debate on the Gift option, as I'd agree that misusing that to avoid paying for a service you're using is wrong.

Make no mistake, there's nothing at all wrong with building the fees into your asking price. That's the way it's supposed to work and all businesses do this now that fees are a regular part of their deals. Paypal fees and shipping fees are factored in when I choose the price that I'm interested in selling my gear for.

The ONLY issue with this is when sellers list their price and then tell buyers that they are responsible for adding 3% if they want to use Paypal. As a seller, you agreed not to add this surcharge for the service.

The irony of all of this is that by telling the buyer that they're responsible for Paypal fees, the sellers here are significantly reducing the number of buyers that will contact them. The same buyers may well contact the buyer if the price is just slightly too high, but the "Buyer pays fees" idea just kills sales. They're not doing themselves any favors with this tactic. :)

[Paleolith54]

[QUOTE=Paleolith54;12252089]


The ONLY issue with this is when sellers list their price and then tell buyers that they are responsible for adding 3% if they want to use Paypal. As a seller, you agreed not to add this surcharge for the service.
. :)

Yeah, it just creates an issue where none needs to exist.

[Ahab3]

My personal policy when I sell here is I include paypal and shipping. It just makes an easier decision for the purchaser, one price to pay.

^^^ This +1 ^^^

I'll add that if a buyer offers me a price lower than the one I'm asking; if I want to sell quickly, I'll just eat the shipping to get it out the door. Small price to pay for a fast, easy, honest sale.

[bcgraphicsguy]

When I sell in the emporium I offer both options...because 9 out of 10 times I will get a PM saying "Will you drop your price to "such and such" if I use paypal gift?" . No lie , 9 out of 10 times...I get tired of answering all those PMs so I just include a 'gift' price. It's not that I am trying to do anything shady. I have flawless Ebay feedback, TGP and CL references and I'm willing to talk to anyone on the phone conceding anything I sell.


Like I said B4 though, paypal has no real interest in anyone's protection but their own...I know because I've been 'had' a couple times on eBay and never saw squat except some lip service...