Good source for room treatment foam? How much is enough?

[Rango]

I've got a 16 by 25 space with bare walls and tile floors.
http://i976.photobucket.com/albums/ae245/Chutist/76a73f64.jpg

As you can imagine, things get bouncing around a bit when we have band practice. :p

I'm not trying to sound proof. Just want to make it better to play in.... :bounce

I thought about this ->The Auralex Alpha DST Roominator Kit:
http://www.hellomusic.com/ec/DealMain.aspx?did=12569
That's a 100 sq ft.
But I think I'd need SEVERAL kits :huh

I'm sure even one would help.

What's the conventional wisdom here?

[Fran Guidry]

Your link didn't get me to a product, but the use of the term "foam" is a red flag in today's acoustic treatment world. Foam products only attenuate high mids and above, leaving low mids and below unaffected and resulting in a boomy but dead room sound.

Fiber materials of various kinds are generally recommended these days. Owens Corning OC703/705 is the single most widely cited product, but rockwool and insulation cotton are both alternatives.

Check the Gearslutz.com acoustics area, Realtraps.com, johnlsayers.com for more info.

I've done a couple of posts at my Homebrewed Music blog as well: http://www.homebrewedmusic.com/2009/03/06/building-a-broadband-absorber-on-the-cheap/

Fran

[jmoose]

Foam is mostly a terrible waste of money at best...

Best pricing for real 703, either prewrapped or raw is ATS acoustics;

http://www.atsacoustics.com/

Most expensive is Real Traps, basically four times the cost.

Lots of other solutions in between.

How much you need depends on the goals for the room. Don't forget about the ceiling!!

[Rex Anderson]

auralex.com

Free room analysis. You should take your guitars off the wall so you can put panels there.

Because your room has good dimensions, it should be easier to treat and sound good.

You need: corner trapping like LENRDS and corner cubes to help tame the bass

a combination of absorption and diffusion so you don't get the room too dead

and FWIW, a colleague told me foam like Sonex, if thick enough (4"-6") is actually a very good absorber because it has linear absorption characteristics. It's expensive but it does work (according to an acoustician who measures the stuff in an anechoic chamber and teaches the subject at Columbia College).

If you do rigid fiberglass, it's good to get panels at least 4" thick with two layers of 2" material. My guy recommended 2" of 703 with 2" of 701 on top (703 closest to the wall). spi products inc can custom make those panels for you (2' x 4' x 4" recommended).

If you buy Auralex product, you can get good pricing from Tom Merritt at Music Center in Kenosha,WI.

Your room and band mates will thank you.

[chrisgraff]

Given that room at "band volume," You would need to cover 75% of the walls/ceiling/floor to hear an appreciable difference.

Just to give you an idea...

My room is apx 18' x 18' x 18' (at the highest point of the sloped ceiling).

The room didn't sound right until about the 24th realtrap, (about half are DIY).

http://i28.photobucket.com/albums/c206/nashguitar1/th_photo5.jpg (http://s28.photobucket.com/albums/c206/nashguitar1/?action=view&current=photo5.jpg)

[travisvwright]

WTF? Maybe some sort of depth perception issue but are you miking the right PA speaker?

[jmoose]

Given that room at "band volume," You would need to cover 75% of the walls/ceiling/floor to hear an appreciable difference.


And here I was thinking 40% would do it in style... unless hanging haphazardly you'll hear a noticeable difference around 20% coverage.

How did you end up with 24 traps in an 18x18 room? Just looking at the picture you posted, that trap on the floor behind the monitors isn't doing anything more then collecting dust. Rule of thumb is that the first two feet of the walls make no difference whatsoever... the largest differences come from boundaries... wall to ceiling etc.

[jspax7]

Sounds like you just want to tame some reflections, as opposed to building a home studio.

The Auralex Roominator kit should meet your needs. Check the product to make sure it contains 6 bass traps and 24 squares. I picked mine up for $199.

1 kit, properly placed should improve the sound of your room tremendously. Bass traps in all corners, foam on walls that your speakers are pointing at should get you started.

Nice room, btw.

[simplykind]

Sent a PM. I have some spare sound proofing material from a professional company.

[chrisgraff]

And here I was thinking 40% would do it in style... unless hanging haphazardly you'll hear a noticeable difference around 20% coverage.

How did you end up with 24 traps in an 18x18 room? Just looking at the picture you posted, that trap on the floor behind the monitors isn't doing anything more then collecting dust. Rule of thumb is that the first two feet of the walls make no difference whatsoever... the largest differences come from boundaries... wall to ceiling etc.

11 realtraps (4 front wall, 5 as a cloud, two extra)
2 DIY 703 panels in the front corners
entire back wall (12'w x 18'tall) is 703

PS Good point...that one on the floor *should* be straddling the floor/wall corner. Must've been lazy after sweeping that day.

[vicdeluca71]

I wouldn't waste the money it's just a practice space

[Scott Whigham]

The number one thing to understand, I think, is that you'll need to tame two types of reflections: upper/mid frequencies and low frequencies. The "best" stuff that I've found is OC705 - it stops both wonderfully. The problem is that it's expensive. OC703, however, works great as well - it's just that it won't stop the low end as well as OC705. So what a lot of us do is we have our "broadband absorbers" (our upper/mid frequencies) use OC703 and our "bass traps" (the low end trappers) use OC705.

You should be able to find a local insulation supply company who can help you - I found it was WAY cheaper to buy locally than to have to pay shipping for a pallet of 4'x2' panels weighing 50lbs. I used these guys and found a local place: http://spi-co.com/. I then either DIY the frames or bought some of these DIY frames (http://www.acoustimac.com/home/diy-acoustic-diy-acoustic-material).

For broadband absorption, you can create either a 4'x2'x2" panel or stack two panels into one frame and create a 4'x2'x4" one. The more "mass", the better the absorption.

For bass absorption, you have two options:


Stack three 4'x2'x2" OC705 panels to make a 4'x2'x6" deep bass trap - hang these in the corners
Create what are called superchunks (http://forum.studiotips.com/viewtopic.php?t=535)

Either works great although I think superchunks are easier to use and I like them better.

I bet that if you added two superchunks and four broadband absorbers that you would REALLLLLLLLLY hear a difference. The more absorbers you add, the better of course, but there is a point of diminishing returns.

Materials cost for something like that would be about $100 - $150 for the OC703 and OC705, $50-$200 for the frames (depending on DIY or buying pre-made), and $20-$40 for the frame covering. This would be way better than what you linked to IMO. It would also be expandable and moveable: if you move to a new location, cool - just take these with you. Or if you want to add more panels, no prob.

Also check your local craigslist - people sell this sort of thing infrequently.

And Chris and Moose - you guys are scaring the dude haha. "What it takes to treat a mixing room" and "What it takes to make a practice room sound better" don't have to be the same thing :p

WTF? Maybe some sort of depth perception issue but are you miking the right PA speaker?haha - I'm thinking that the drummer sings

[Rango]

Lot's a great replies...

I had a detailed muti quoted reply that was lost when the editor here locked up. :(

Now I've got to run but quickly

Just trying to make the room more livable. :) Not make a recording studio. ;-)

OBTW - that pic was 25' from the speaker in the back right and the mic is about 8' from that speaker. AND it's only there because it's set off to the side so I can watch TV! LOL!!!

Thanks again! Keep'm coming. :)

[Fran Guidry]

I have an 8' ceiling so a frameless panel works great for me. I can jam two of them into the vertical corners without any attachment. The lack of a frame makes them lighter for suspending as a cloud. And it was easy to tie the frameless panels up to hold them across the wall-to-ceiling horizontal corners.

Going frameless saves the cost of the frame, of course, and makes construction so simple even a klutz like me could do it.

http://www.homebrewedmusic.com/2009/03/06/building-a-broadband-absorber-on-the-cheap/

Fran

[jmoose]

And Chris and Moose - you guys are scaring the dude haha. "What it takes to treat a mixing room" and "What it takes to make a practice room sound better" don't have to be the same thing :p


Yah... it's more or less a "tracking" room where neutral is the goal.

Free room analysis here;

I'd yank all the gear out and start again from scratch. Couple of things look wonky... first thing would be to yank the Ampeg out of the corner. All that's doing is building up more low end in the room then what's naturally there which we'll try to kill with bass traps. The bass cab should be in the center of a wall... under the TV, flip it with the blonde Fender... whatever. Get it off the ground too.

Second thing that doesn't look right at all is those two PA speakers on either side at the back of the room, a monitor wedge facing those cabinets and vocal mics inbetween. Why? Its setting up a potential feedback loop at worst and is simply amplifying bad room tones (leakage) at best. Better idea, in a small rehearsal space would be to put those two cabs side by side in a "line array" style setup so they cover the space as a whole and drag the wedge wherever it needs to be.

Get good sounds in the room first, THEN figure out where you need treatment. Probably a dozen 2x4' panels evenly dispersed is more then enough to tame things, maybe even less.

[Rango]

That room has been in a bunch of configurations.

What you see in the pic is not set up for practice. It's in "watch TV and JUST me playing guitar". Most the time we move one of the mains about where I'm standing taking the picture. Really they are just you you can hear the singers. Feedback has never been an issue. What is an issue is the room gets so "muddy" you can't hear the vocals clearly.... hence the desire to "tame" the room a bit. ;-)

[landru64]

i'd check this out..

http://www.johnhunteracoustics.com/

[Outlier]

Try acoustical cotton. Works great and you can buy it from a local HVAC dealer for a lot less than many of the options you have looked at. This is the stuff they use to line heating ducts to reduce noise. Good specs. You can literally glue it to the walls and cover with Guilford & Main acoustic fabric for looks (if you prefer). for corners add several layers and you have a home made bass trap.

[straticus]

Lots of good info. Tagged for later. :)

[barhrecords]

In my practice space, I have concrete floor, drywall ceiling and drywall walls.

I use and would recommend 2' x 4' x 4" panels of OC703 evenly spaced on the walls and ceiling.

I got some DIY premade cloth bags and bought the 703 separate.

Figure out your budget and get as many identical panels as you can then make as even a pattern as you can in the room and include the ceiling.

The premade bags come with cloth handles for mounting vertical or horizontal.

For the ceiling mounting I used dry wall anchors into 4"x4" metal fence post toppers I picked up at lowes. They end up forming a nice 4" offset U shape that the bags can hang from.

For the walls I use those wire push through dry wall mounting hooks.

Richard