Cello vibrato and neck bending

[Clifford-D]

Who are the greats (and not so greats) that use
cello vibrato and/or neck bending in their playing,
be it chords or single line playing??

My first offering is the wonderful Ted Greene, big on cello vibrato in an attempt to tune on the fly,
he then comments on how he likes to change keys because they start "loose their charm" (does he mean out of tune??)
Ted shows with his tuning on the fly that the guitar is hard work
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AlrpMgoP_uc

[shg]

When it comes to vibrato technique, nobody tops Yngwie.

[Melodic Dreamer]

Cool Vibrato and Neck Bending goes to Bill Frisell.

[Jazzydave]

When it comes to vibrato technique, nobody tops Yngwie.

...and B.B. King, Clapton, SRV, Slash, and I have to mention Steve Vai...just to name a few...

[Clifford-D]

...and B.B. King, Clapton, SRV, Slash, and I have to mention Steve Vai...just to name a few...
I'm talking about CELLO VIBRATO

much different than BB who had his "butterfly" vibrato

And no whammy bars, that is NOT what a cello vibrato is.

Cello vibrato ok?.

[DRS]

Teach us about cello vibrato.

[tiktok]

Isn't that where your finger moves parallel to the string instead of perpendicular? The vibrato that classical guitarists use?

[Jazzydave]

I'm talking about CELLO VIBRATO

much different than BB who had his "butterfly" vibrato

And no whammy bars, that is NOT what a cello vibrato is.

Cello vibrato ok?.

Sorry if I took it the wrong way. I've heard many different style of cello vibrato, some tight and quick such as the "butterfly" vibrato of BB King's...but more so similar to the wide vibrato of Clapton, Slash, etc. It's very controlled and their intonation has been mastered. I've hear Steve Vai (without his whammy bar) do some incredible vibrato that moves in and out very similar to the cello (and other stringed instruments other than the cello).

I know you're asking for examples...and I realize the ones I mentioned are surface level players, but can you give us some more description of what you're after hearing/seeing? I'm interested in hearing them and learning more about this since you seem to think I don't know what it is...

[Jazzydave]

Isn't that where your finger moves parallel to the string instead of perpendicular? The vibrato that classical guitarists use?

Is that similar to like what George Lynch does? Check out around 3:44 on this one. I know he goes into more detail during his teaching sessions and I think he's mentioned pulling that from classical players...

ZdSmnkLIBxI

[tsar nicholas]

I'm not sure which major electric players use classical-style vibrato, but that was the only style I used for many years, and still generally prefer it.

[Clifford-D]

Is that similar to like what George Lynch does? Check out around 3:44 on this one. I know he goes into more detail during his teaching sessions and I think he's mentioned pulling that from classical players...

ZdSmnkLIBxI
Similar, however a cello vibrato never leaves fret. (I think)

A cello vibrato is the same motion as a slide player vibrato
back and forth with the target pitch in the middle. That could be very wide
so perhaps that is a cello vibrato of sorts that Lynch is doing.

[Secret Ingredient]

For me, cello vibrato only seems to really work higher up on the neck and on the G, B and E strings. Otherwise it does not seem to produce much pitch change. BTW I think Holdsworth uses that technique.

[JamonGrande]

Can't name any specific players, but I did have some really interesting experiences with that style of pushing/pulling laterally along a string and bending the neck while playing Alvin Lucier's "Still and Moving Lines of Silence in Families of Hyperbolas." Essentially various beating patterns, arranged for 3 ebowed acoustics spread around an auditorium. It was a very intense piece to perform, considering it was really just "1 note."

joe

[Matt L]

George Lynch, Warren DeMartini and Greg Howe all use that very wide cello-like vibrato at times in a rock context.

When I think of extreme neck bending, Jake E. Lee is the first name that comes to mind. He must have had the neck bolts very loose on his guitars to get the wild pitch variations he got.

At the end of the 1st solo, around 2:40ish, he does a neck bend that is so deep and even, it sounds like a whammy bar dump-

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[medrawt]

This is OT, but I always thought when Greene talked about keys losing their charm here he just meant that he starts to want to hear modulation, or his ear gets bored hearing too much material in one tonal center.

[Matt L]

I love how Frisell uses it, BTW. Like a natural chorus.

[shg]

To be strictly accurate it is IMPOSSIBLE to employ a cellist's vibrato on an electric guitar because an electric guitar has frets. Think about it.

What electric guitarists think of as cello vibrato is when you're alternately stretching and compressing the guitar string along its length to achieve a fluctuation in pitch. This enables the vibrato to go BELOW the pitch of the fretted note, something that would otherwise only be possible with a whammy bar or a neck bend - or hitting a pre-bent note and releasing and then returning to the bent pitch.

The vid quality is atrocious but when Yngwie does just this sort of quasi-cello vibrato at about 0:40 in this video you can hear the distinct feel it gives to the vibratoed note.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rFFgOhDlLwk

[DRS]

To be strictly accurate it is IMPOSSIBLE to employ a cellist's vibrato on an electric guitar because an electric guitar has frets. Think about it.

What electric guitarists think of as cello vibrato is when you're alternately stretching and compressing the guitar string along its length to achieve a fluctuation in pitch. This enables the vibrato to go BELOW the pitch of the fretted note, something that would otherwise only be possible with a whammy bar or a neck bend - or hitting a pre-bent note and releasing and then returning to the bent pitch.

The vid quality is atrocious but when Yngwie does just this sort of quasi-cello vibrato at about 0:40 in this video you can hear the distinct feel it gives to the vibratoed note.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rFFgOhDlLwk
Not true. Classical players do it. You fret the note and rapidly move your finger in line with the string. It pushs the string sharp and flat - just not nearly to the degree of a cello player.

[Jazzydave]

Not true. Classical players do it. You fret the note and rapidly move your finger in line with the string. It pushs the string sharp and flat - just not nearly to the degree of a cello player.

A similar effect is simply pushing down on the string and then relieving the pressure - regardless, it's still in relation to the frets, unlike an instrument like the cello.

Maybe a better example of this technique would be on a feetless guitar or bass?

[TubeStack]

Al DiMeola was the first guy I saw incorporating cello-type vibrato on electric, he really made it sing nicely.

[shg]

Not true. Classical players do it.

Entirely true, and no they don't. I guess you didn't actually read my post.

[deeohgee]

Cello vibrato - Robert Fripp
Neck Bending - Bill Frisell

[GovernorSilver]

To be strictly accurate it is IMPOSSIBLE to employ a cellist's vibrato on an electric guitar because an electric guitar has frets. Think about it.


I took cello lessons. The vibrato motion I was taught was "think of turning a door knob" while keeping the finger in one place on the fingerboard.

It was easy enough to apply the same concept to the guitar since the finger is not actually moving up or down in a big motion. I don't know though if this style of vibrato is what CliffordD is actually talking about.

I've done vibrato the "wrong" way on cello and viola too - that is where the finger is actually moving up and down the string like a slide player's slide moves. Cool sound, but it's different.


What electric guitarists think of as cello vibrato is when you're alternately stretching and compressing the guitar string along its length to achieve a fluctuation in pitch. This enables the vibrato to go BELOW the pitch of the fretted note, something that would otherwise only be possible with a whammy bar or a neck bend - or hitting a pre-bent note and releasing and then returning to the bent pitch.


The cello vibrato that I was taught (on a real cello) is pretty subtle - the pitch range is actually quite small. When applied to guitar, the range seems about the same - when the pitch gets bent below the fretted note pitch, it doesn't go near a half-step down - probably not even a quarter step down.

Anyway, that's just my experience on the cello and viola vs. the guitar and how I apply vibrato from the bowed strings to guitar. No claims to great shakes on the cello (which I don't play anymore) or the viola.

Anyone who is interested in how a classical violin vibrato is done (it's similar to viola) can check out this site - enter as Guest and look for the Vibrato video lesson - you'll see and hear the vibrato pitch range is very limited compared to Albert King, whammy bar vibrato, etc.: http://violinmasterclass.com/

[Chuckracer]

Have any of you experimented with strictly below-note vibrato on the guitar, as opposed to the normal above note vibrato?
There may be a name for this, not sure...just wondering.

[kimock]

To be strictly accurate it is IMPOSSIBLE to employ a cellist's vibrato on an electric guitar because an electric guitar has frets. Think about it.

Ok, I thought about it and I think it is possible because you don't do vibrato with a fret anyway, you do it with your finger.

[cruisemates]

Ok, I thought about it and I think it is possible because you don't do vibrato with a fret anyway, you do it with your finger.

No - I get it - you can't do "real" cello vibrato on a guitar because on a cello when you move your finger in the direction if the neck (not up & down) you get actual "vibrato' by changing the pitch subtley - because you are actually changing the location of the "note" on the neck.

On a guitar you can only achieve the pitch and sharpness (no going lower) because there is a fret there - unless you are bending the neck to make the fretted note flatter - and then you can theorhetically use some kind of vibrato to give it "cello (sounding) vibrato".

But I don't know of any guitar players who actually do this - and I don't personally like bending my neck unnecessarily.

[kimock]

No - I get it - you can't do "real" cello vibrato on a guitar because on a cello when you move your finger in the direction if the neck (not up & down) you get actual "vibrato' by changing the pitch subtley - because you are actually changing the location of the "note" on the neck.

On a guitar you can only achieve the pitch and sharpness (no going lower) because there is a fret there - unless you are bending the neck to make the fretted note flatter - and then you can theorhetically use some kind of vibrato to give it "cello (sounding) vibrato".

But I don't know of any guitar players who actually do this - and I don't personally like bending my neck unnecessarily.

You got that all pretty much backwards there chief.
Don't worry about location on the neck, the point is the modulation of the pitch, the intonation or micro-intonation of it, and the pitch center relative to the vibrato.

There are more than a couple ways to accomplish that.
And of course you can bend flat, vibrato flat, whatever on fretted guitar.
Just push the string flat, toward the bridge.

It goes down!!!

[DRS]

You got that all pretty much backwards there chief.
Don't worry about location on the neck, the point is the modulation of the pitch, the intonation or micro-intonation of it, and the pitch center relative to the vibrato.

There are more than a couple ways to accomplish that.
And of course you can bend flat, vibrato flat, whatever on fretted guitar.
Just push the string flat, toward the bridge.

It goes down!!!
What I was trying to explain. Thanks Mr Kimock. When you fret a note and move your finger in line with the string, you move a portion of the string back and forth to the nut and away thus changing the vibrating tension and increasing and reducing pitch. Subtle but real. Try it.

[trailrun100s]

Just push the string flat, toward the bridge.

It goes down!!!

Well damn, you learn something new every day. I just tried that and whaddya know, it goes flat. When you pull toward the nut, sharp...All sorts of new sounds and inspirations have just sprung forth...

[Chuckracer]

That also explains why guitar intonation needs to be set by the player's ear and not by a machine.

[cruisemates]

On a guitar you can only achieve the pitch and sharpness (no going lower) because there is a fret there - unless you are bending the neck to make the fretted note flatter - and then you can theorhetically use some kind of vibrato to give it "cello (sounding) vibrato".


You got that all pretty much backwards there chief. Don't worry about location on the neck, the point is the modulation of the pitch, the intonation or micro-intonation of it, and the pitch center relative to the vibrato.


There are more than a couple ways to accomplish that.

And of course you can bend flat, vibrato flat, whatever on fretted guitar.
Just push the string flat, toward the bridge.

It goes down!!!


Well, I discovered something new, too, but I still think my analysis is more accurate. And as much as I appreciate the promotion to "chief" I'll decline.

The note doesn't go DOWN as you move your finger towards the bridge (if you start in the place we are all trained not to use - next to the lower fret and move it closer to the note fret, where you are supposed to play a guitar note). At the fret it plays the correct pitch. It goes SHARP as you move your finger towards the nut (away from the fret). - but only a few micro-cents, barely indicated by my tuner and not by my ear at all.


If this is what guitar players call "cello vibrato" I am not here to argue, but I disagree the note goes "lower" or "flat" = that is physically impossible with a fret there.


I can do vibrato from the fretted note to sharp on my guitar with "guitar vibrato". But trying to "master" cello vibrato for the purposes of pitch variation is not anything I will be trying to do anytime soon - seems pointless to me as I already have a very good regular guitar vibrato. Both only go from the actual note to sharp, not "lower".


Now, if I learn there is another benefit to "cello vibrato" (sustaining the note, possibly) then I might care about it. But as I try it now I don't hear any real pitch variation (pretty much the definition of vibrato). I sometimes use "cello vibrato" when I play piano as well, both work about the same for me.


Is this a gag from TAG post?

[cruisemates]

Is that similar to like what George Lynch does? Check out around 3:44 on this one. I know he goes into more detail during his teaching sessions and I think he's mentioned pulling that from classical players...

ZdSmnkLIBxI

By the way - I like what he does there (I think it is closer to 3:48), but I don't think this is what they are talking about.

[Lance]

I think the three dudes in Apocolyptica all have extremely well developed vibrato technique! What a great show they put on.

[Yngtchie Blacksteen]

Yngwie uses it on rare occasions:

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I like how he mixes various kinds of vibrato to get a different sound out of the notes. The one I believe this thread is about is the one he does at 0:45 and 1:16.

[Aaron Smith]

In deference to the experts that have already posted here, I don't think a true "cello" vibrato is possible on guitar. I play steel-stringed guitar, classical guitar, and violin so I'm pretty familiar with the vibrato techniques on all three instruments.
The vibrato that people usually do on violins, cellos, and other fretless instruments is actually the tip of the finger rolling up and down the string and fretboard. This changes the length of the string, and thus the pitch of the note. Check out this slow motion video, and watch the point of finger contact:

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On a fretted instrument, the string length is defined by the distance between the fret and the bridge saddle. The only way to get vibrato is to change the string tension; you can't move the frets around. You can make a cello-like motion, but what you're actually doing is changing how hard you press the string behind the fret. This is easier to do with nylon strings (or very light steel strings), and it's also easier to get the necessary wrist motion in the classical posture; which is why it's a more practical technique for classical players. It is also why classical guitars have very small frets. Tall frets + strong grip = bad intonation.

I haven't tried to "push" the string towards the bridge to make it go flat (although now I'm curious), but I would bet that the reason it's going flat is because you're also pushing the back of the neck and bending it forward. To really see if this works, you need to do it without your thumb touching the guitar neck.

So a guitarist can make the same vibrato motion as a cellist, and it will even make a vibrato sound. But I don't think it's working the same way, and it's a lot more subtle.

[kimock]

Jeez. . . You can push the string flat, depending on position as much as a half step. You can reliably knock any of the basic 4, 14, 22, 33, cent down adjustments on the wound strings in the higher positions.
In other words, just to be clear, I can put my finger on the 12th fret D string and by using pressure "english" in one direction or another raise or lower the pitch without bending the string.
That's what we're talking about, moving the pitch above and below the fretted pitch.
You're just bunching the string up in one direction or the other, increasing or decreasing the tension and pitch on one side of the fret or the other.
Please, please, please, one of you no-playing motherf*ckers bet me a whole bunch of money I'm wrong.

I'll be back in the country next week to collect.

[Aaron Smith]

Jeez. . . You can push the string flat, depending on position as much as a half step. You can reliably knock any of the basic 4, 14, 22, 33, cent down adjustments on the wound strings in the higher positions.
In other words, just to be clear, I can put my finger on the 12th fret D string and by using pressure "english" in one direction or another raise or lower the pitch without bending the string.
That's what we're talking about, moving the pitch above and below the fretted pitch.
You're just bunching the string up in one direction or the other, increasing or decreasing the tension and pitch on one side of the fret or the other.
Please, please, please, one of you no-playing motherf*ckers bet me a whole bunch of money I'm wrong.

I'll be back in the country next week to collect.

I'm not sure why you are taking it so personally, but...

I just plugged an electric strung with 10's into a Strobostomp to see if I could reproduce what you're talking about. Turns out I was able to drop the pitch a bit by pushing towards the bridge, as you described. However- I was only able to do it on the wound strings, from about the 7th fret up. My finger had to be sitting directly on top of the fret, and I had to squeeze the shizz out of the string to get enough grip to push it flat. If I was even the tiniest bit behind the fret, my finger pressure would pull the string sharp instead of flat. I was not able to get anywhere close to a 1/2 step drop, even putting the butt of the guitar on the floor and pushing towards the ground.

So you are correct that it is possible to push the string flat. Maybe you pros can use it as a practical playing technique, but for us "no-playing motherf*ckers" it seems pretty hard. Ironically, I wasn't disagreeing with you in the first place- my point was that it is still NOT AT ALL how a cello vibrato works. You're still changing the string tension instead of the string length.

[GovernorSilver]

Just tried the "push the string towards the bridge" trick on my steel string acoustic. Wow! it works! Tried it on the wound D string on 12th fret, then on the 12th fret of each of the higher UNWOUND strings. Works on them too! My string gauge is typical steel string acoustic - .013.

Thanks, Kimock! Another fun tool for my toolbox.

I'll leave the "is it really cello vibrato" debate to others. I didn't take Clifford's nomenclature so literally :rotflmao (sorry guys!). I do like to use it in my own playing, because sometimes I actually like the sound of it compared to the more common string bending vibrato. I was first attracted to that sound when I saw and heard Allan Holdsworth play vibrato that way.

[trailrun100s]

Jeez. . . You can push the string flat, depending on position as much as a half step. You can reliably knock any of the basic 4, 14, 22, 33, cent down adjustments on the wound strings in the higher positions.
In other words, just to be clear, I can put my finger on the 12th fret D string and by using pressure "english" in one direction or another raise or lower the pitch without bending the string.
That's what we're talking about, moving the pitch above and below the fretted pitch.
You're just bunching the string up in one direction or the other, increasing or decreasing the tension and pitch on one side of the fret or the other.
Please, please, please, one of you no-playing motherf*ckers bet me a whole bunch of money I'm wrong.

I'll be back in the country next week to collect.

i did it and it is quite easy to do...Don't know why others are having such a hard time...