Mic'ing small combos - some clubs too small?

[pater familias]

The couple of bars left around here that still have rock and roll bands are small, and I mean small. Brick walls and very tight "stage" areas with one not even having a riser.

And these places don't have any PA gear of their own just like every other place I've played south of Atlanta in Georgia. So you bring your own mains on sticks for the vocals and maybe keys. And any kind of monitoring short of IEM is difficult to impossible as it just turns into a big damn screech fest and mud.

Do you reach a point where it's not really practical to mic small amps through the PA?

And if so how do you monitor them and your vocals? Are IEM systems really doable in that kind of situation anyhow?

I'm at a crossroads gear-wise from just playing in acoustic bands to now being guitarist and "soundman" for a fledgling 90's cover band. I have to invest in some kind of monitoring for at least three people as my QSC K12 speakers will serve as mains. I'd like to give IEM a serious try, but the other guys nor myself for that matter can really afford to spend a lot of money on something we might very well hate. One's tried it in another band and didn't like it.

I have paralysis by analysis here. Plus I'm basically broke.

[chequepoint]

Monitors in a situation like that can make things worse as easy as they could make them better. Sometimes you just need to learn to hear yourself in the mains.

That's also a situation where I find a good 4x12 cab can actually help as it throws a wider beam and fills out the room better.

[lareplus]

Vox 15R's are perfect for this situation! ( self parody )

[GCDEF]

We mic everything, use subs and floor monitors wherever we play, no matter how small. It's about sounding good, not loud.

There are some little places that hire rock bands, but aren't really big enough to accommodate them. Even though it's hard to turn down gigs when you're starting out, some gigs just aren't worth it.

[pater familias]

We mic everything, use subs and floor monitors wherever we play, no matter how small. It's about sounding good, not loud.

There are some little places that hire rock bands, but aren't really big enough to accommodate them. Even though it's hard to turn down gigs when you're starting out, some gigs just aren't worth it.

Unfortunately, around here if you want to play gigs, it just is what it is.

[newi123]

My band played very similar gigs in the UK playing rock and blues (loud blues - zz top, bonamassa etc etc) - here's what we did!

Keep it simple - for us that meant guitar, bass and drums - no 2nd guitar and no keys. This way nobody is competing for the same frequency band, and you don't have an ever increasing volume level as everyone gradually turns up.

Acoustic drummer who played rock but wasn't deafening. He set up, then the bass player matched his level to the drums, I matched my guitar to both. The vocals went through the mains we brought (500 - 1000w compact system) and if the room needed it the only other thing mic'd was the kick drum to give a bit of spread.

No monitors.

The bass player usually used a closed back 4x10, but the positioning of this was less essential as bass frequencies carry. I personally preferred an open back 1x12 or 2x12 to a closed back cab as sound comes out the back too - that way if the stage is so small the amp ends up in front of the drummer, he can still hear me........

I then positioned myself near enough to one of the mains to hear myself sing. Easily done in fact and a small 'stage' helps here.

This approach works really well as it's so simple - effectively any required change in volume or balance is a simple turn of 1 knob. We didn't need a separate sound man - I simply used a long enough cord to walk off stage to check the instruments levels, and trusted the bass player enough to check the level and tone of the vocals.

The entire gear list was:

1 smallish drum kit
1 bass head / cab
1 guitar amp
small pa with poles for 2 1x12 pa cabs

We could be in and set up in 30 mins max - wonderful!

We figured if we every need to play larger gigs where we'd need monitors etc etc etc there would be a house pa and supplied soundman. I actually found it more difficult to hear myself in some clubs with sound guys and big systems that I did with our micro set up...............

[ronmail65]

We mic everything, use subs and floor monitors wherever we play, no matter how small. It's about sounding good, not loud.

There are some little places that hire rock bands, but aren't really big enough to accommodate them. Even though it's hard to turn down gigs when you're starting out, some gigs just aren't worth it.

Same here.

3 ways of dealing with this...

Big rooms where ambient amp volume supplements PA, turn up the mic'd combo as much as soundman can handle. Use PA monitor mix for vocals and other band instruments only.
Small rooms - no ambient amp volume permitted. Use your small mic'd combo as a personal monitor and direct it at your head (but not facing forward). Use PA monitors for vocals and other band instruments only.
Small rooms - no abient amp volume - no stage volume permitted. Turn your mic'd amp against a wall. Rely completely on PA monitor mix for everything.

[weshunter]

don't overthink it man -- put a wedge or 2 on the floor, turn everything down and mic it.

time tested; bar-gig approved

[pater familias]

don't overthink it man -- put a wedge or 2 on the floor, turn everything down and mic it.

time tested; bar-gig approved

I've done it in these same clubs with two different bluegrass bands, and it was just plain muddy, screechy Sh*t. And the gear is good, QSC, Presonus, etc.

Some rooms just plain suck.

[newi123]

The other thing about turning small amps (or any amps) down and using the pa for all gigs, is that is not really how guitar amps are supposed to be used in my book.

Correct me if I'm wrong, be we spend hours arguing here about the 'perfect' tone for an individual - guitars, leads, pedals, amps, valves, speakers and ......... why do you want to turn the amp down (assuming stage volume is not too high in the first place of course) and stick your wonderful guitar tone through some shitty pa drivers and monitors....... also messing with the sound with mic placement, pa eq etc etc......... Sure, in big venues you have to do it so they can hear you at the back - but small venues - just, why?????

[chumley]

I must be getting really old...didn't know what a monitor was for the first ten years of gigging. If you are running your own sound, why do you want to complicate everything, increasing the chances of having a lousy sound? More PA gear to lug, more knobs to tweak, correct mic placement, crowded stage, cables strung everywhere, more time in setup and tear down....if it's a small room, mic the vocals, set stage volume to the drum level...I agree with newi123....

Most of the time when we play a job with a sound man, I ask for no monitor, or if it's already set up, I usually end up turning it a little bit away from me. They are usually so loud I can't hear my amp behind me. I hear more than I want from the monitor of the guy standing next to me.

[ronmail65]

The other thing about turning small amps (or any amps) down and using the pa for all gigs, is that is not really how guitar amps are supposed to be used in my book.

Correct me if I'm wrong, be we spend hours arguing here about the 'perfect' tone for an individual - guitars, leads, pedals, amps, valves, speakers and ......... why do you want to turn the amp down (assuming stage volume is not too high in the first place of course) and stick your wonderful guitar tone through some shitty pa drivers and monitors....... also messing with the sound with mic placement, pa eq etc etc......... Sure, in big venues you have to do it so they can hear you at the back - but small venues - just, why?????

Maybe I'm splitting hairs, but I don't completely agree. Guitar amplification is used to project the sound for other band members and listeners to hear you. Or through a PA system to manage the best overall sound for the band as a whole -- not just for my guitar.

IMO, the fact that specific levels of volume are needed to reach a certain tone or potential for an amp is secondary. It's a great perspective if all you do is record in isoloation or play by yourself.

Don't get me wrong, I obsess about my tone and I'm into nice gear and I'm very particular as well. But, I also believe that this obsession is counter-productive if it gets in the way of playing in a band with other people, creating a good sound together while performing for others. The tone/volume obsession has got to be managed to a reasonable level.

[batsbrew]

right tools, for the right job.

if you don't have money to throw at the solution, quit worrying about it.

turn amps backwards and eq accordingly.

tell the drummer to tone it down, and quit hitting the cymbals so hard.

put nothing but vocals thru pa, and call it good.

[newi123]

Maybe I'm splitting hairs, but I don't completely agree. Guitar amplification is used to project the sound for other band members and listeners to hear you. Or through a PA system to manage the best overall sound for the band as a whole -- not just for my guitar.

IMO, the fact that specific levels of volume are needed to reach a certain tone or potential for an amp is secondary. It's a great perspective if all you do is record in isoloation or play by yourself.

Don't get me wrong, I obsess about my tone and I'm into nice gear and I'm very particular as well. But, I also believe that this obsession is counter-productive if it gets in the way of playing in a band with other people, creating a good sound together while performing for others. The tone/volume obsession has got to be managed to a reasonable level.

I think we are actually kind of saying the same thing here - i'm certainly not a 'it's gotta be on 10 to get MY tone' kind of guy. I'm not advocating stage volume to achieve a certain tone.

But my point is that when you play with an acoustic drum kit, they can't be turned down - so it makes sense to me to all match to the drums, and in small venues, the sound the amps make, and the mix from the amps onstage for the band members, is exactly what the audience also gets. It's the minimum volume the band can realistically play at with out using v drums and line 6 gear..........

I have been told a couple of times in clubs by sound guys (when playing a carr vincent on 7 watts btw) 'you need to turn that down significantly so I can put some through the pa - if you want more onstage I can put some through the monitors for you'. Now in those situations, I had a tone that I was more than happy with, at a sensible volume level - matched to the drum kit, that I also wanted to share with the audience - there is simply no way I'm turning and having it fed back through the monitors. It was a completely pointless exercise, because the band was happy with the stage mix - we could all hear each other nicely, with only vocals being monitored in that instance. It also nicely avoided having the sound guy who I didn't know mess with the tone of the guitar.......... cos they all do it :-)

Of course for larger gigs pa becomes essential - but really the term pa is outdated. It should be sound reinforcement. Ie you need to reinforce the sound for the audience when the audience can't hear the acoustic instruments or amps on stage..........

For me, if I can possibly avoid bringing out a big pa system, having an extra guy to run it offstage, who may or may not do a good job, and leave ourselves open to all the extra things that can go wrong well it's a no brainer!

Plus, as the OP originally mentions, some venues are physically too small for a full pa rig with monitors etc etc etc

[batsbrew]

But my point is that when you play with an acoustic drum kit, they can't be turned down

yes, they can.
it's all a choice made by the drummer.

[Dark Helmet]

yes, they can.
it's all a choice made by the drummer.


who, as we all know, are gargoyles...




(we need a bad-drummer-joke thread...)

[pater familias]

yes, they can.
it's all a choice made by the drummer.

Well they just can't physically play any lighter past a certain point without sacrificing some technique. He already tones it down as much as feasible and still sit in the pocket.

I'm not disagreeing with you here, but I see the comment A LOT about if your drummer's any good he can just play more quietly. I suspect many who say it don't play drums themselves, or at least they don't excel on them as a primary instrument.

[newi123]

who, as we all know, are gargoyles...


(we need a bad-drummer-joke thread...)

What do you call a man that hangs around with musicians?.......... A drummer.

[newi123]

yes, they can.
it's all a choice made by the drummer.

True to a certain extent - but the guy we had used a nice Yamaha fusion kit (smaller drums than the rock so so I'm told), used the small sticks we made him play with, and didn't hit too hard.......... so there does come a point where it just can't get any quieter. After all this is rock and roll............

[Dark Helmet]

What do you call a man that hangs around with musicians?.......... A drummer.


HA! nice.


my older brother is our drummer, and he's an very good musician, but he goes stupid when he picks up a set of sticks... its shocking!

[stratotastic]

I must be getting really old...didn't know what a monitor was for the first ten years of gigging. If you are running your own sound, why do you want to complicate everything, increasing the chances of having a lousy sound? More PA gear to lug, more knobs to tweak, correct mic placement, crowded stage, cables strung everywhere, more time in setup and tear down....if it's a small room, mic the vocals, set stage volume to the drum level...I agree with newi123....

Most of the time when we play a job with a sound man, I ask for no monitor, or if it's already set up, I usually end up turning it a little bit away from me. They are usually so loud I can't hear my amp behind me. I hear more than I want from the monitor of the guy standing next to me.

Guess you don't sing?

[tiktok]

It's not uncommon for a given room to be too small for "rock" music. Just because you can fit four guys and their gear in the corner doesn't mean the place is big enough for rock music.

Plus, the drummer is always too loud.

[batsbrew]

Well they just can't physically play any lighter past a certain point without sacrificing some technique. He already tones it down as much as feasible and still sit in the pocket.

i've played with too many excellent drummers who managed these types of situations to agree with that.
there are tuning options, stick options, muting options, hell, you can throw towels over snares and cymbals....

bottom line is, you got a problem, and you gotta fix it.

you've already identified the biggest source of the lack of volume control, so approach it scientifically and use common sense.

problem wont fix itself, in the name of rock and roll.


after 5 years of full time road work, there isn't a problem i haven't seen. there are answers to all of them.

[tiktok]

True to a certain extent - but the guy we had used a nice Yamaha fusion kit (smaller drums than the rock so so I'm told), used the small sticks we made him play with, and didn't hit too hard.......... so there does come a point where it just can't get any quieter. After all this is rock and roll............

Drumming is like running. If you're running, and you keep on slowing down you end up jogging. If you slow down further, you're speed-walking. The arms and legs are still moving, you're covering distance, but it's not just like "sprinting" slow--you can't sprint "slowly".

The fact that drum kits have been designed to be louder and louder over the last few decades is the just the icing on the cake.

[newi123]

i've played with too many excellent drummers who managed these types of situations to agree with that.
there are tuning options, stick options, muting options, hell, you can throw towels over snares and cymbals....

bottom line is, you got a problem, and you gotta fix it.

you've already identified the biggest source of the lack of volume control, so approach it scientifically and use common sense.

problem wont fix itself, in the name of rock and roll.


after 5 years of full time road work, there isn't a problem i haven't seen. there are answers to all of them.

I appreciate the advice - but I never actually said we had a problem with the drummer - I just pointed out that the point my band worked from, as a reference to how loud we should all be, was the acoustic drum kit. We kept that manageable, and it was never too loud for the rooms we played.

My point was why have the guitar & bass artificially low compared to the drums, and then pump them back up through the pa and monitors? Just seems a self defeating exercise - unless I have missed the point of this whole thread of course............. happens from time to time!

[modernp]

I use a single bose ll1 with a bass module for gigs that small. Works great no need for monitors and just a stellar sound.

[batsbrew]

why have the guitar & bass artificially low compared to the drums, and then pump them back up through the pa and monitors? Just seems a self defeating exercise

i agree with this.

it boils down to monitoring.
if the drums are cranking at medium volume, but the bass and guitar is way down, how is he going to lock into you?
so he's gotta have some guitar and bass in his monitors, or in -ear.

the only reason to drive volume down on stage, is to dial in your front of house mix.
and it's different from room to room, if you have guitar and bass in the PA loud, and you're hearing it in the room, that's a nice feeling....
but if it's a dead room, and you're not hearing any of yourself coming out of the PA, and you're playing low on stage, it's gonna feel funny.

the drummer might want to invest in some plexi shields.
very common, and they work.
not cheap.

but again, you're right back to 'having a problem', and having to figure out a way to fix it.

i'm just throwing suggestions and opinions and experiences out there, hoping something will help.

some rooms....... you just can't win, no matter what.

but you gotta please the boss, to get paid.


i've been successful in playing certain clubs that were just downright impossible, with hardly any PA, and managed to find the magic balance between tone, volume, clarity and dispersion, between the guitars, bass, keys, and drums, without micing anything.....

of course, everybody in the band has to be on the same page, looking for the same result.

part of the reason i went to a set of (3) 1x12 closed back cabs, was so i could spread my sound out across the stage evenly, just for that purpose.
in tight situations, i'll aim a cab up at me from the floor in front of me, like a monitor-- aim another on the back line backwards, to mic up... and use the other one on the other side of the stage, so that side can use it however they need to....


then putting mostly just the vox thru the PA, and just barely augmenting the FOH mix with the tiniest bit of the music, and kick, just to balance it out.

[pater familias]

I use a single bose ll1 with a bass module for gigs that small. Works great no need for monitors and just a stellar sound.

Per person? I've seen bands doing that, and they sounded good. However, there's no way the other guys would pay for one even if I could.

[pater familias]

i agree with this.

it boils down to monitoring.
if the drums are cranking at medium volume, but the bass and guitar is way down, how is he going to lock into you?
so he's gotta have some guitar and bass in his monitors, or in -ear.

the only reason to drive volume down on stage, is to dial in your front of house mix.
and it's different from room to room, if you have guitar and bass in the PA loud, and you're hearing it in the room, that's a nice feeling....
but if it's a dead room, and you're not hearing any of yourself coming out of the PA, and you're playing low on stage, it's gonna feel funny.

the drummer might want to invest in some plexi shields.
very common, and they work.
not cheap.

but again, you're right back to 'having a problem', and having to figure out a way to fix it.

i'm just throwing suggestions and opinions and experiences out there, hoping something will help.

some rooms....... you just can't win, no matter what.

but you gotta please the boss, to get paid.


i've been successful in playing certain clubs that were just downright impossible, with hardly any PA, and managed to find the magic balance between tone, volume, clarity and dispersion, between the guitars, bass, keys, and drums, without micing anything.....

of course, everybody in the band has to be on the same page, looking for the same result.

part of the reason i went to a set of (3) 1x12 closed back cabs, was so i could spread my sound out across the stage evenly, just for that purpose.
in tight situations, i'll aim a cab up at me from the floor in front of me, like a monitor-- aim another on the back line backwards, to mic up... and use the other one on the other side of the stage, so that side can use it however they need to....


then putting mostly just the vox thru the PA, and just barely augmenting the FOH mix with the tiniest bit of the music, and kick, just to balance it out.

What amp are you using in that set up?

[modernp]

Per person? I've seen bands doing that, and they sounded good. However, there's no way the other guys would pay for one even if I could. They are basically a monitor also, and then I just run the vocals and the miced amps to the other inputs. Plenty of volume for a real small stage.

[pater familias]

They are basically a monitor also, and then I just run the vocals and the miced amps to the other inputs. Plenty of volume for a real small stage.

But you're only using the one L1 for the whole band, correct?

[modernp]

Yep thats all I need but I do use 2 bass modules with the bose. They are so directional that they fill a small room very adequately.

[batsbrew]

pater:
What amp are you using in that set up?

i'm using a vintage mesa boogie mark2b, 60 watt head.
i can run all three cabs off the 2 outputs from the head, or, i can use my hafler power amp, take the left and right outputs from my yamaha dg stomp pedal, to the power amp, and play in stereo, with the center cabinet dry.

works like a charm.

[Guitar Dave T]

The bigger issue here is the ability to get a good stage mix off your backline and play the room has become a lost art. As a result, we're too often building a bridge when the job is just to get across the river. For the $100-a-man gigs we do, it's just not worth it.

After 24 years of playing in small rooms, on stages too small to fit monitors, etc., we've become adept at getting a good stage mix off backline only for all but large clubs. Here's an instrumental break clip with a single stereo condensor mic so you get an idea of what everyone sounds like IRL:

http://www.guitardavetaylor.com/AmbushVamp2011.mp3

We do use monitors, but we keep it simple - some $75 Kustom 10's just so we can hear enough to sing on key and so the drummer can cue off the vocals. Our PA is a Yamaha 600 watt, 6 channel powered mixer with 15"/horn cabinets-on-sticks. Works like a champ.

And to the guys who mic EVERYTHING in super small clubs, unless you put the drummer behind a sheild, there's no way you can mic drums in a small room without adding over decibals, sorry.

[Shiny_Beast]

I have been told a couple of times in clubs by sound guys (when playing a carr vincent on 7 watts btw) 'you need to turn that down significantly so I can put some through the pa - if you want more onstage I can put some through the monitors for you'. Now in those situations, I had a tone that I was more than happy with, at a sensible volume level - matched to the drum kit, that I also wanted to share with the audience - there is simply no way I'm turning and having it fed back through the monitors. It was a completely pointless exercise, because the band was happy with the stage mix - we could all hear each other nicely, with only vocals being monitored in that instance. It also nicely avoided having the sound guy who I didn't know mess with the tone of the guitar.......... cos they all do it :-)



:dude

[Guitar Dave T]

yes, they can.
it's all a choice made by the drummer.

Yep. I did a pickup gig with everthing mic'd through FOH, and the drummer kept demanding the soundman turn him down in the mix.

I wasn't the band leader, so I kept quiet, but the question I really wanted to ask the drummer was, "Why don't you not play so f$%^#g loud?"

[Guitar Dave T]

Well they just can't physically play any lighter past a certain point without sacrificing some technique. He already tones it down as much as feasible and still sit in the pocket.

I'm not disagreeing with you here, but I see the comment A LOT about if your drummer's any good he can just play more quietly. I suspect many who say it don't play drums themselves, or at least they don't excel on them as a primary instrument.

I don't play drums myself, but I do work with some outstanding drummers who are skilled at playing at ALL levels in the pocket. They may not enjoy it as much, but I don't enjoy not being able to crank a Marshall stack anymore as much either. But we get by because we love playing for idiots and shit pay, right?

[Shiny_Beast]

I think some of the guys that have been around the block know their equipment and have kits that sound good at less than ear bleeding volumes. Hve fun getting a standard loud rock kit to sound right at any other volume.

Even if you have the skill to keep a lid on the dynamics, the hit's just don't have the same feel to them.

[dewey decibel]

I guess I'm not understanding the OP. I wouldn't dream of micing my amp in a tiny club. Do you mic your amp at band practice? You just setup the amp in a way you can hear it, as in off the ground or at least tilted up at you. I prefer NOT to get my amp sound through a monitor anyway (just a splash on a big stage at most).

Vocals are a different story. But I wouldn't mess with IEMs unless I had a dedicated soundman to do it. As the others have said the stage volume should be low enough that just a bit of vox in a monitor or two should be enough.

[Dark Helmet]

I don't care about the pay, I'll do it for free if I can really crank it up and get loud!

[mudster]

I gigged for years, still do occasionally, never mic in a small room. What's the point? In my opinion, with a rock band, all you need through the PA is the vocals. There is no reason on earth why you would sound any better mic'd at a lower volume, then amplifying that signal to a louder volume, than just playing at a reasonable volume for the room in the first place and putting the vocals on top. Occasionally, we'd mic the kick or even the kick, hi-hat, snare, or just put one overhead on the drums, but those were larger rooms.
I'm kind of wondering if we all have the same definition of small room. Here in Kansas, a small room can be the smaller than the 3 car garage on the houses on the new side of town.
If by small you mean a club that can legally hold 350 people, mic it baby. If you mean can legally hold 50 people, skip it.

[dewey decibel]

I have a tip for anyone interested; if you're ever in a situation where the vocal monitors aren't cutting it (or are nonexistent) try putting one ear plug in. Although it won't help you hear the other singers for matching harmonies, it really helps you hear what you're singing.

[GCDEF]

I guess I'm not understanding the OP. I wouldn't dream of micing my amp in a tiny club. Do you mic your amp at band practice? You just setup the amp in a way you can hear it, as in off the ground or at least tilted up at you. I prefer NOT to get my amp sound through a monitor anyway (just a splash on a big stage at most).



Micing for a performance vs rehearsal is apples and oranges. You mic so that you get a better mix in the house and you can have independent stage and house mixes. Two things you don't need in rehearsal.

[Guitar Dave T]

I gigged for years, still do occasionally, never mic in a small room. What's the point? In my opinion, with a rock band, all you need through the PA is the vocals. There is no reason on earth why you would sound any better mic'd at a lower volume, then amplifying that signal to a louder volume, than just playing at a reasonable volume for the room in the first place and putting the vocals on top. Occasionally, we'd mic the kick or even the kick, hi-hat, snare, or just put one overhead on the drums, but those were larger rooms.
I'm kind of wondering if we all have the same definition of small room. Here in Kansas, a small room can be the smaller than the 3 car garage on the houses on the new side of town.
If by small you mean a club that can legally hold 350 people, mic it baby. If you mean can legally hold 50 people, skip it.

^THIS.

The first part of understanding is in definition of terms. Thanks for defining.

[Guitar Dave T]

I think some of the guys that have been around the block know their equipment and have kits that sound good at less than ear bleeding volumes. Hve fun getting a standard loud rock kit to sound right at any other volume.

Even if you have the skill to keep a lid on the dynamics, the hit's just don't have the same feel to them.

Unfortunately, loud rock kit's only really still work on the big stage, or on play-for-cover, low-pay rock club stages.

Most small clubs and restaurants that pay anything these days don't really have a place for 'em. This is the world where I live, and I'll bet it's where a lot of us live.

[pater familias]

I'm the OP. I asked the question, because many members here say you don't need more than 10-15 watts to gig...just mic it they say.

But I thought around here the 2-3 clubs are too small and you have to run your own sound. So seems to me in these situations to play un-mic'ed with acoustic drums you need enough power to play clean parts loud enough when necessary. I don't think anything under at least 25 watts and probably more like 30 will do it clean.

I'd love to be able to use a Deluxe Reverb-sized amp, but I don't think it'd handle it cleanly if necessary. So I have a Vibrolux Reverb.

I think a lot of the mic-it players have a soundman out front and play larger places.

[Bikedude]

We mic everything, use subs and floor monitors wherever we play, no matter how small. It's about sounding good, not loud.

There are some little places that hire rock bands, but aren't really big enough to accommodate them. Even though it's hard to turn down gigs when you're starting out, some gigs just aren't worth it.

This! We also do this. I use an IEM using only one ear for the vocals. I then hear my amp thru the open ear. Keeps vol. manageable on stage, but gives best FOH sound for dispersion.

[RupertB]

If the place is very small and the audience is directly in front of us, no mic is fine.

The non-mic'ed situations I try to avoid are:

A) Wide or odd-shaped rooms. Amps being directional, I'll be too strong on-axis and/or too weak, off-axis.

B) Low or no-stage places where there'll be a wall of bodies in front of the "stage area." That wall of bodies will stop your sound (especially HF) dead. Got to either elevate the amp above the audience's shoulders or mic it.

FWIW, I do band gigs with a mic'ed Lightning 15 clone. Works great for stage volume (I run it right at 5-6, MV dimed) but wouldn't cut it unmic'ed.

[newi123]

I'm the OP. I asked the question, because many members here say you don't need more than 10-15 watts to gig...just mic it they say.

But I thought around here the 2-3 clubs are too small and you have to run your own sound. So seems to me in these situations to play un-mic'ed with acoustic drums you need enough power to play clean parts loud enough when necessary. I don't think anything under at least 25 watts and probably more like 30 will do it clean.

I'd love to be able to use a Deluxe Reverb-sized amp, but I don't think it'd handle it cleanly if necessary. So I have a Vibrolux Reverb.

I think a lot of the mic-it players have a soundman out front and play larger places.

Hey Pater,

So just to further clarify my own personal experience of un-mic'd gigging - for small uk pub gigs (room holding 50 - 100) I was happily matching my Carr Vincent's clean sound to a medium volume acoustic drum kit (yamaha custom fusion jobbie played by someone that showed a bit of restraint...... but not too much). All drive came from pedals and the amp was on the 7 watt setting. Mind, stave carr does use very efficient speakers in these amps (eminence red whites and blues from memory). I have also played a blues Jnr in a similar place with a TS9 for drive, the amp set clean and the stock fender speaker.

I was not competing with another guitar player, but these small amps sound really full and fat when the power tubes are working a bit.

I am sure that in a small room your deluxe reverb would work fine - unless your drummer is stupid loud!

Hope this helps a bit more.

[jeffm725]

I think we are actually kind of saying the same thing here - i'm certainly not a 'it's gotta be on 10 to get MY tone' kind of guy. I'm not advocating stage volume to achieve a certain tone.

But my point is that when you play with an acoustic drum kit, they can't be turned down - so it makes sense to me to all match to the drums, and in small venues, the sound the amps make, and the mix from the amps onstage for the band members, is exactly what the audience also gets. It's the minimum volume the band can realistically play at with out using v drums and line 6 gear..........

I have been told a couple of times in clubs by sound guys (when playing a carr vincent on 7 watts btw) 'you need to turn that down significantly so I can put some through the pa - if you want more onstage I can put some through the monitors for you'. Now in those situations, I had a tone that I was more than happy with, at a sensible volume level - matched to the drum kit, that I also wanted to share with the audience - there is simply no way I'm turning and having it fed back through the monitors. It was a completely pointless exercise, because the band was happy with the stage mix - we could all hear each other nicely, with only vocals being monitored in that instance. It also nicely avoided having the sound guy who I didn't know mess with the tone of the guitar.......... cos they all do it :-)

Of course for larger gigs pa becomes essential - but really the term pa is outdated. It should be sound reinforcement. Ie you need to reinforce the sound for the audience when the audience can't hear the acoustic instruments or amps on stage..........

For me, if I can possibly avoid bringing out a big pa system, having an extra guy to run it offstage, who may or may not do a good job, and leave ourselves open to all the extra things that can go wrong well it's a no brainer!

Plus, as the OP originally mentions, some venues are physically too small for a full pa rig with monitors etc etc etc

Strongly agree here. Ive played many rooms where the best option is to just put Vocals through the mains, throw a couple wedges down with just vocals through them in front of each singer (all on the same mix through a little Yamaha 2 channel powered 6 channel mixer) and we will throw a mic on the kick drum to give a little thump reinforcement and that's IT. Both guitars, the bass and keys are all un micd and the amplifiers are MORE than enough to fill the space and sound better than they would turned down and mic'd.

We hire a sound guy for most of our gigs, but there are certain rooms where it makes NO sense to as they are not going to make us sound any better in that room and possibly we will sound worse. A big part of that is our problem as we play too loud, but since I know we do, I use that as a parameter of making a decision. If we are playing a small room and the guitarist or keys player is playing so loud that the sound guy has them out of the mix, well then, why have a sound guy?! Id rather split the extra 2-300 dollars we pay the sound guy and drag out the powered mixer and a couple 15 inch mains.

It is absolutely realistic to play gigs in smaller bars with just a small 6 channel vocal reinforcement rig and mic no instruments or drums (besides a little kick).

[Peteyvee]

don't overthink it man -- put a wedge or 2 on the floor, turn everything down and mic it.

time tested; bar-gig approved

That's worked for me for decades.

I've done it in these same clubs with two different bluegrass bands, and it was just plain muddy, screechy Sh*t. And the gear is good, QSC, Presonus, etc.

Some rooms just plain suck.
It doesn't work everywhere, but I'd give a it another shot and figure out what frequencies are screeching and then terminate them with extreme prejudice. Start with the vocal mics picking up extraneous noises and then work your way up (down?) to the guitars and whatever else you're using...but I have a feeling you've already done this.

[timmy2tone]

I've always tried to mic my amp merely to give it "spread." Rather than boosting the volume, it's nice to have the guitar sound coming from many sources across the stage. Sometimes unmic'd it sounds like all the guitar sound is coming from that one little box in the corner. The spread makes it sound really big, not to be confused with loud! LOL

[GCDEF]

I've always tried to mic my amp merely to give it "spread." Rather than boosting the volume, it's nice to have the guitar sound coming from many sources across the stage. Sometimes unmic'd it sounds like all the guitar sound is coming from that one little box in the corner. The spread makes it sound really big, not to be confused with loud! LOL

Somebody else gets it. :agree

[Miles]

Yes, some clubs are too small to mic. Hence the word amp - sometimes your amplifier is meant to project itself and I think they often sound good standalone. Small pubs or bars just don't need a lot of sound reinforcement to fill out the room. Your single combo speaker can cover a lot of ground. I've had to play larger halls where even the drums had some PA support and all I had was a 1x12 and it still sounded fine. I got to open it up and let it roar. Plus, unmic'd, you might be able to open it up a bit.

My vote - maybe angle it back a little and let it open up. Some clubs, you just don't need the PA support.

[DrSax]

Anybody have this problem (which i noticed recently at one of my gigs)?..

Our soundguy insists on the guitar amps being VERY low, so he can control the FOH mix totally. Our amps are mic'd and put in the mains, and usually sound quite nice. However....

the amps are so disproportionately low compared with the drummer's stage volume, that when i walk out straight in front of the stage all I hear is drums. If you walk out further past the throw of the mains it starts to sound good because you can then hear the guitars etc, but for anyone dancing right in front of the stage all they're getting is drums. It's a total buzzkill for folk up close to the stage. Our amps are so low, we can't even hear them on stage, we have them in our monitors quite loud.

It would seem to me that as long as the amps are equal to the drums, it shouldn't present a problem for the FOH mix, but our soundguy disagrees.

EDIT: didn't mean to hijack the thread, I thought it was germane to the discussion, if the OP disagrees i'll delete....

[GCDEF]

A
It would seem to me that as long as the amps are equal to the drums, it shouldn't present a problem for the FOH mix, but our soundguy disagrees.


I think you're right. I like the amp to carry the stage volume and match the drums comfortably. Anybody up close will be getting mostly stage mix, which should sound pretty good.

[pater familias]

Anybody have this problem (which i noticed recently at one of my gigs)?..

Our soundguy insists on the guitar amps being VERY low, so he can control the FOH mix totally. Our amps are mic'd and put in the mains, and usually sound quite nice. However....

the amps are so disproportionately low compared with the drummer's stage volume, that when i walk out straight in front of the stage all I hear is drums. If you walk out further past the throw of the mains it starts to sound good because you can then hear the guitars etc, but for anyone dancing right in front of the stage all they're getting is drums. It's a total buzzkill for folk up close to the stage. Our amps are so low, we can't even hear them on stage, we have them in our monitors quite loud.

It would seem to me that as long as the amps are equal to the drums, it shouldn't present a problem for the FOH mix, but our soundguy disagrees.

EDIT: didn't mean to hijack the thread, I thought it was germane to the discussion, if the OP disagrees i'll delete....

All opinions are welcome in my threads as long as we're civil. I also happen to agree with you.

[tiktok]

I've always tried to mic my amp merely to give it "spread." Rather than boosting the volume, it's nice to have the guitar sound coming from many sources across the stage. Sometimes unmic'd it sounds like all the guitar sound is coming from that one little box in the corner. The spread makes it sound really big, not to be confused with loud! LOL

I used to just put an extension cabinet on the other side of the stage.

[Guitar Dave T]

We are playing at a small club this Friday. We will not be micing instruments, nor does anyone who plays there. We will be using open back guitar amps, as does everyone else I've seen who plays there (or anyplace we typically play these days).

My guitar amp always has plenty of "spread".

Come see for yourself. We'll be at The Goat in East Dallas this Friday.

Or if you don't care to make the 800 mile trip to come show some love for an out-of-town bar band, here is a video of us playing in the same small club, vocal PA only - video camera microphone right in the first row of seats (pardon to those who've already seen this). That's me with the red Gibson CS336, opposite my partner in crime, Skeeter Harrison, on the Tele Deluxe:

v8tZrJKuKCk

Seriously, this works for 90% of the bar bands in the greater DFW Metromess - and when you're pulling down $100 a man with tips and all, you really want to pay a soundman?

[dewey decibel]

I'm the OP. I asked the question, because many members here say you don't need more than 10-15 watts to gig...just mic it they say.

But I thought around here the 2-3 clubs are too small and you have to run your own sound. So seems to me in these situations to play un-mic'ed with acoustic drums you need enough power to play clean parts loud enough when necessary. I don't think anything under at least 25 watts and probably more like 30 will do it clean.

I'd love to be able to use a Deluxe Reverb-sized amp, but I don't think it'd handle it cleanly if necessary. So I have a Vibrolux Reverb.

I think a lot of the mic-it players have a soundman out front and play larger places.


Ah, I think I follow you now. I don't understand guys that say, "just use a small amp and mic it," at least not in the context of a club gig. Here's my take on it; you set up your band so that to the best of your ability everyone on stage can hear every instrument clearly without monitor reienforcement. Of course there's always a compromise and it's not always possible to hear everyone (especially guys on the other side of the stage) but I would NEVER rely on monitors to get my sound (learned that one the hard way). As far as how many watts/speakers you need it depends on your band. For myself if I need a completely clean sound I've found I need around 35 watts, that's my standard. At the same time I've done gigs with a Deluxe Reverb and got away with it, but to be safe 35 watts. There's nothing worse then running out of headroom when you need a clean sound.

If you don't need a totally clean sound it's different. The "small amp mic'd up" thing for me has been about guys that only need semi-clean to dirty. If you can hear your Pro Jr or whatever with the sound you want over the drums then you're golden, just mic it up for the FOH. Same as with a bigger amp. A cranked 12 watt amp is still pretty loud, where as a cranked up 50 watter is going to overpower everything else on stage in most situations, hence "small amp mic'd up".

As for clubs that don't have a FOH I don't think it's necessary to bring a bigger amp to compensate. If you're band's levels are even onstage it should be OK off stage. Again, get your amp off the floor or at least pointed up. Bass amps are a little different, they should usually stay on the floor. Only thing you need through the PA you brought is vox, maybe a little kick. If more is needed the club should have a proper FOH system.



Anybody have this problem (which i noticed recently at one of my gigs)?..

Our soundguy insists on the guitar amps being VERY low, so he can control the FOH mix totally. Our amps are mic'd and put in the mains, and usually sound quite nice. However....

the amps are so disproportionately low compared with the drummer's stage volume, that when i walk out straight in front of the stage all I hear is drums. If you walk out further past the throw of the mains it starts to sound good because you can then hear the guitars etc, but for anyone dancing right in front of the stage all they're getting is drums. It's a total buzzkill for folk up close to the stage. Our amps are so low, we can't even hear them on stage, we have them in our monitors quite loud.

It would seem to me that as long as the amps are equal to the drums, it shouldn't present a problem for the FOH mix, but our soundguy disagrees.

EDIT: didn't mean to hijack the thread, I thought it was germane to the discussion, if the OP disagrees i'll delete....


That sounds awful. Is your soundguy running FOH and monitors? If so, there's your first problem. At the same time I know a lot of soundguys that like the fact that I use an amp with tilt back legs because it gives them more control over the FOH mix. But I still play at volume, meaning I can hear what I'm playing pretty clear when I'm standing in my spot. I've also had plenty of nights where the soundguy said he didn't have me in the FOH at all (or horns, or leslie, or whatever) and that's totally fine with me as long as it sounds good out there.

I've played a lot of big stages, outdoor gigs, arenas, etc, and those are situations where you pretty much need a monitor as there's so much air, the sound just disperses but I've learned not to rely on it. For instance we use to set up really spread out to fill the stage but have since learned we play MUCH better when we set up close together, pretty much as close as we would on a medium size stage. And like I said I use a monitor in those situations but I've learned to get by without one.

I really don't understand how Im expected to playing dynamically when I'm getting my sound (and everyone else's) from a monitor. Guess that's why I prefer to record all together in one room rather than overdub.




Seriously, this works for 90% of the bar bands in the greater DFW Metromess - and when you're pulling down $100 a man with tips and all, you really want to pay a soundman?

Yeah that's a fine mix on that vid, if anything I'd like to hear more drums. The soundman makes more $$$ than me most of the time...

[Tone_Terrific]

I think you're right. I like the amp to carry the stage volume and match the drums comfortably. Anybody up close will be getting mostly stage mix, which should sound pretty good.

And that is all you need for a small club.
Good stage mix for the players and good sound right in front. The rest of the room can take care of itself.

LEAVE the weak areas alone for talkers, play to the front row enthusiasts and dancers.
The whole room will hear you, anyway.
Trying to get a perfect mix into every corner will drive you nuts and/or cost a bundle..and then it is too loud.:bonk

[Guitar Dave T]

And that is all you need for a small club.
Good stage mix for the players and good sound right in front. The rest of the room can take care of itself.

LEAVE the weak areas alone for talkers, play to the front row enthusiasts and dancers.
The whole room will hear you, anyway.
Trying to get a perfect mix into every corner will drive you nuts and/or cost a bundle..and then it is too loud.:bonk

EXACTLY. And gone are the days when everyone went to a local bar JUST to hear a local bar band. Most are there to socialize.

[guitfiddle]

I've always tried to mic my amp merely to give it "spread." Rather than boosting the volume, it's nice to have the guitar sound coming from many sources across the stage. Sometimes unmic'd it sounds like all the guitar sound is coming from that one little box in the corner. The spread makes it sound really big, not to be confused with loud! LOL

Somebody else gets it. :agree

I think you're right. I like the amp to carry the stage volume and match the drums comfortably. Anybody up close will be getting mostly stage mix, which should sound pretty good.


YES

WAY too many soundguys miss two very important points.

1. They are there as reinforcement to make what isn't loud enough be so.

2. The stage sound should be part of the total sound the crowd hears, and be balanced.

If the band has it's shit together, then they can make a great sound for themselves onstage, and then the sound guy just has to spread it out, and boost the stuff that's too low.

[GCDEF]

then the sound guy just has to spread it out, and boost the stuff that's too low.

That's the salient point that the don't need to mic it guys miss. It's not about making it loud, although in a big place that's obviously part of it, it's to distribute the sound evenly throughout the room.

[guitfiddle]

That's the salient point that the don't need to mic it guys miss. It's not about making it loud, although in a big place that's obviously part of it, it's to distribute the sound evenly throughout the room.

Yup. Plus, the guys who make the amps go super low miss that fact that there is now a big hole in the sound right in front of the stage, and that PA speakers can be as directional as guitar cabs, and sometimes more so. Having the stage do part of the heavy lifting keeps it even. Not to mention, way more fun for the band.

I still agree, though, that in the tiniest of rooms, vocal PA is the only thing needed.

[losergeek]

This seems to have gotten off track a little, but I'll put in my 2 cents on the original question - for me it would depend on whether you have someone working the sound throughout the set. In a really small bar your stage volume is probably going to fill the room, so in that case the mics are mainly to give the soundguy a little more control to balence out one amp against the other or against the other instruments. However if you're manning the PA yourself (side stage, or what have you) then there's not point - either you're not going to be able to tell if the mix is off, or you can just adjust the amp levels directly.

[pater familias]

This seems to have gotten off track a little, but I'll put in my 2 cents on the original question - for me it would depend on whether you have someone working the sound throughout the set. In a really small bar your stage volume is probably going to fill the room, so in that case the mics are mainly to give the soundguy a little more control to balence out one amp against the other or against the other instruments. However if you're manning the PA yourself (side stage, or what have you) then there's not point - either you're not going to be able to tell if the mix is off, or you can just adjust the amp levels directly.

Everyone in these parts pretty much has to bring their own gear and run sound from the "stage." Sad but true. Even if you could make enough money to afford a "soundman" there's probably not three guys within 30 miles that would have a damn clue how to do it.

[gillman royce]

I started when there were no p.a.'s - you plugged a mic into a guitar amp - and obviously no monitors- so I've learned a few tricks along the way. We had a similar problem playing a circuit of venues as you describe. What did it for us was a small pa with monitors; an electronic drum kit with 'live' snare; my guitar going through a Mesa V-twin pedal and the bass through an ss top with dummy load - everything through the pa. It's gear that fits the gig. While the overall sound may not be your first choice, set up/tear down is a breeze.

[pater familias]

I started when there were no p.a.'s - you plugged a mic into a guitar amp - and obviously no monitors- so I've learned a few tricks along the way. We had a similar problem playing a circuit of venues as you describe. What did it for us was a small pa with monitors; an electronic drum kit with 'live' snare; my guitar going through a Mesa V-twin pedal and the bass through an ss top with dummy load - everything through the pa. It's gear that fits the gig. While the overall sound may not be your first choice, set up/tear down is a breeze.

That's where I'm thinking about heading. Using Tech 21 Blonde, something similar for the bass.

Guess you really need at least one sub if you're gonna put bass through the PA though.

[bsuite]

Monitors in a situation like that can make things worse as easy as they could make them better. Sometimes you just need to learn to hear yourself in the mains.

That's also a situation where I find a good 4x12 cab can actually help as it throws a wider beam and fills out the room better.

:huh some of the places I've been in, you had a hard time fitting your 1x12 in. let alone a 4x12.

[uitar99]

I must be getting really old...didn't know what a monitor was for the first ten years of gigging. If you are running your own sound, why do you want to complicate everything, increasing the chances of having a lousy sound? More PA gear to lug, more knobs to tweak, correct mic placement, crowded stage, cables strung everywhere, more time in setup and tear down....if it's a small room, mic the vocals, set stage volume to the drum level...I agree with newi123....

Most of the time when we play a job with a sound man, I ask for no monitor, or if it's already set up, I usually end up turning it a little bit away from me. They are usually so loud I can't hear my amp behind me. I hear more than I want from the monitor of the guy standing next to me.

+1. We haven't been mic'd in 7 years. We just get the instrument levels to match our drummer. I haven't touched my amp knobs in last three 3 gigs at the same bar. Just us e a volume pedal

[otaypanky]

We're in the same boat around here. OMost places are very tight on space and our favorite place to play is very small. The audience is right on top of us. There is precious little space to set up. But the owner, help, and crowd are great and the folks that come are into the music, so we love it there.
I have set up there using a 10 watt amp mic'd and it was fine, and sometimes use a bigger amp. I just keep it reasonable. There's no room for any monitors, plus they would add to the overall sound in the place and it's just not needed. I set up small pa cabs behind us and it works fine with no feedback issues at all.
It works out well. The folks who are listeners report the sound volume and balance is good, and the folks that want to talk and visit with friends are appreciative that they are actually able to have a conversation while the band is playing ~

[NashSG]

I play with a louder rock band. When I have to bring my sound system, it's run the amps evened up with the drums and then just use the PA for vocals and maybe the kick and snare. I don't play anywhere that big (usually we get about 70-85 paid last few gigs), but it always sounds better doing this than when we get to some club where someone wants to mic everything and TURN DOWN.

Probably a lot different for the bands doing the cover and/or blues circuit - but that generally kind of sucks if you are playing hard rock.

Crazy thing on some of those guys that are big on "hey let's try to turn this amp down" always blast the joint with a CD player louder than the actual band.

[losergeek]

Everyone in these parts pretty much has to bring their own gear and run sound from the "stage." Sad but true. Even if you could make enough money to afford a "soundman" there's probably not three guys within 30 miles that would have a damn clue how to do it.

Well, it doesn't even have to be a 'soundman' - when we run our own sound for shows, we just make sure that someone from the other bands or just a friend in the crowd knows generally what's going on with the board in case any major disasters happen. Trying to run it from the side of the stage just puts too much stress on the band in my opinion so we try to avoid it.

[stratotastic]

LOL - this thread has a nerdy-guys-huddled-in-the-corner-at-the-dance-talking-about-how-to-pick-up-girls feel to it.

[Kelsey]

I've played several places here in Memphis, including a few places on Beale St., and most of the stages are very small, facing rooms that are long and narrow -- shotgun shacks so to speak. The only thing through the mains is usually vocals and occasionally harp and horns. A good 15 watt amp with a 100 dB speaker is plenty for typical blues and rock guitar tones -- a Blues Jr with C.Rex, a Deluxe Reverb or DRRI, and a Vibrolux Reverb on 4 with Tubescreamer in front have sounded best for both rhythm and lead while riding the guitar volume knob. Occasionally the kick drum might get a mic for a little reinforcement.

The best vocal sound overall came from using a single powered Wharfedale speaker (with two input channels) angled slightly to provide some onstage vocal monitoring without feedback. I could hear myself and it was plenty loud out front with the volume about 1/3 up at most. Two guitars through a pair of BJ's and stout drumming through a full sized kit with bass to match. It worked remarkably well and loaded out pretty quickly, too.

[losergeek]

LOL - this thread has a nerdy-guys-huddled-in-the-corner-at-the-dance-talking-about-how-to-pick-up-girls feel to it.

Isn't that kind of the point of all threads on TGP?