5E3 Dilemma

[Jonster]

I am desperately trying to dial in my 5E3 clone, and need some help. It is a very nicely built clone....period correct iron, and top shelf components. Cab is also material/period correct. Just your standard 5E3, running JJ 6V6's, NOS 12AY V1, Mullard RI AX7 V2, and a Tung-Sol 5Y3.

I have an old Kendrick Black Frame ceramic speaker in there now....one of their very first C12 style speakers they made,...or so they told me on the phone when I described it. Smooth cone, no doping. It sounds killer.....however, it is a fairly dark, somewhat innefficient sounding speaker. To get it to bark in the 5E3, I have to run the tone around 10-11, on the bright input, which sounds great, but by then, the tone is very dirty and compressed, and has a hard time punching through a live mix. Killer tone, just kinda weak. Now, I know the amp is capable of much more.....based on other speakers I have tried....keep reading (please!)...

So, I deduced that the problem lay with the speaker. Task: find a more efficient version of the BF. Enter: WGS's new smooth cone 85 watt speaker. I purchased one, and it does sound great....except it made the amp so loud, that even on 3 it was actually too loud!! Yes, it's the same amp.......the speaker changed the output that drastically. Night-day.

I need a speaker that behaves like the Kendrick, and somewhat like the WGS, (though their speaker is lightly doped, I am thinking I like no doping at all) but is not going to take the amp to insane volume levels. Does Weber have something, maybe someone else has used that would fit the bill?? Anyone tried say a 20-30 watt C12 variant, no dope in a 5E3?

The tone I seek is in that amp, I just need to get the efficiency thing happening. Wish I had more info on the Kendrick.

I'll describe: It has a gold label, "Kendrick Black Frame speaker" was made in TX I believe, the paper has a purpl-ish color, it has a fairly large, flat felt cone, and no doping or ribbing at all. The magnet is @ the size of a 35-50 watt, though it behaves more like a 15-20 watt speaker. It is ceramic.

[SkippyD]

Don't know about clones, but the speaker I would pair with it to get the typical 5E3 sound is a P12R or P12Q. Those are Alnico speakers not ceramic and what came orginally with the Deluxe. Now my reference is my 55 Deluxe with the original speaker and it works beautifully, but there is no telling what the effect of 35 years has had on the speaker, but if I was to replace it I would turn first to a P12 styled speaker.

Have you tried a P12 style yet?

[bgood]

Here's what I did for that with my Mission build. I bought a Weber 12F125 - light dope/30 watts. It added clean headroom and more overall volume and punch. It took the speaker breakup out of the equation from the stock speaker - which I liked. You can order from Weber with options so you'll probably be able to find what you want.

I am looking to try an alnico but this speaker made the amp gigable for me in small clubs. It's LOUD.

[Jahn]

Hmm i hear you on this problem. I love the chime of an alnico blue/gold, but those things are so efficient that they will blow your ears off. But you don't want to go for a ceramic that cuts but has that dark thing going on, maybe like what a greenback would do. And a chimey but less efficient speaker like a Jensen P10R (or in your case a P12R) might not be able to hold together under duress and bass pushing - at least mine didn't.

My solution was to get an old ceramic celestion from the 60s, i think it was a 7724. not sure what the 12" equivalent would be. it tames a tweed, but doesn't squash it. and something about it seems to be less tight, i guess that's what they call "vintagey." who knows. not sure if that helps really. btw i'm putting a gold and greenback in a cab together and letting that combo balance each other out, the result is probably going to be damn loud tho!

[thosk]

I tried a Jensen RI c12q(good, but a little harsh on overdrive), a C-rex(too loud, a little too subtle on the high end, late breakup), ended up with a $45 Weber AlNiCo Sig 12s. May not be efficient enough for your situation but at moderate volumes it's killer. Weber has several choices in the p12 realm.

[GaryE]

What about installing a Hall VVR kit to lower the B+ voltage and control the output volume? It works for me,if you like the sound of your new speaker this might do the trick http://www.hallamplification.com/main.html#2,2

[Jonster]

These are all great responses....I thank you all, keep em coming.

I should have added in the initial:

I have tried:
20 watt GB RI (UK made)
59" Jensen P12R - sounded great clean but too trebly and a tad fizzy when pushed
the WGS speaker - KILLER chime, but un-Godly loud
V30 - YUCK
Jensen C12Q RI - Had laying around, got for $35....worst of all
Jensen P12Q RI - too flubby and bass heavy. better w/ a box on it

The Kendrick crushes them all. I can nail those cool ZZ Top-esque tones, even with my Teles, and I hit it with a BOR and it just morphs into a mini-Marshall. The problem is the speaker just can't deal......not sure why. It's an odd-bird speaker for sure. The Weber selections sound like the ticket....I need to get a slightly more trebly speaker, that behaves in a similar fashion, and is more efficient. One thing I have learned: I DIG smooth cone, non doped speakers!!

[Head+Cab]

Have you tried other 6V6 tubes yet? Is it possible the JJs are too 6L6-ish and not as period-correct as all other components you've described? Maybe try some NOS or current Tung-Sol instead.

[neils]

Look into the speaker Tungsten amps sell. They are made by Weber to sound like an OLD Alnico Jensen.

I have one T12N? T12Q?, can't remember 25 watts, few ribs and seems dopeless. I don't have a 5E3 to try it in but have used it in a couple of other small 6V6 amps, and didn't really like it BUT I've tried other speakers that are "ahhhhhhhh" holy grail for 5E3 amps and didn't like them either. So it is either me or I need a 5E3 to really see what these sound like.

But anyhow check the Tungsten site for details and a review. FWIW I really like a Weber 12F150B in a small 6V6 10-12 watt amp.

Neil

[Hulakatt]

Here's what I did for that with my Mission build. I bought a Weber 12F125 - light dope/30 watts. It added clean headroom and more overall volume and punch. It took the speaker breakup out of the equation from the stock speaker - which I liked. You can order from Weber with options so you'll probably be able to find what you want.

I am looking to try an alnico but this speaker made the amp gigable for me in small clubs. It's LOUD.

I have the 12a125 at 20 watts and i love it. The speaker breakup adds to the overall feel too much for me to use a higher watt speaker. Still pretty loud and clean though!

[How]

Weber 12A125-A 30 watt light dope and the Celestion Blue are my two favorites in the Tweed Deluxe. Tried the 12A125-O which is the smooth cone version but did not do it for me.

[GrungeMan]

Yep smooth cones and ceramic magnets are for me, but I like it loud, crunchy with less compression (remember the 5E3 circuit is cathode biased so that is compressed anyways)

So 5E3, 5E3/5881 or 5E3x2 with any of these cabs 1x10 2x10 3x10 4x10 1x12 2x12 1x15 gives a variety of tones.
Well ok there is a Weber 12F150-W in there somewhere for added twang.
(working on a 12x15 x 2-10's for something to do???)

Also have several Cali/JBL type speakers and various sizes for cleaner tone.

All just a matter of preference though.

Some like the added compression of alnico but don't want a lot of bottom so they go with a Weber 12A125.
Others want to add more bottom so they go with a Weber 12A150.

Can't go wrong with either of these alnico speakers in a 5E3 circuit.

Don't discount a Weber Bluedog(Celestion Blue) with a 5E3.

Grungy :D

PM sent Jonster