Music Theorists: Another question on harmonies

[StompBoxBlues]

Sort of piggybacking on the great other "Musical Theorist" thread on the progression. So many knowldgeable folk here.

I play ok, know electronics, and enough theory to know how dumb I am on theory.

Recently bought one of the Helicon series vocalist pedals, a harmonizer stompbox. Maybe someone here can tell me if I'm wrong on this, but it seems to me that in some songs the Key of the Song is NOT the key signature of the vocal melody.

The pedal has two modes (major, and the other...where to access it you hold in the footswitch while dialing in the key...and it is according to the manual "minor, dorian,...." and a few other. I probably should get the manual before asking this. The main thing, in a song like Brown Sugar, which we play as the original, in D...but when singing the chorus, it is going between G and D, and it sounds to me like choosing G works better as a major harmony. I'm not sure though.

Other songs seem to have it like that as well. There is a feature with the pedal that you can run the guitar signal into it, choose that, and it will automatically choose the right harmony, but I haven't tried it yet, it mentions it works best with chords, and a lot of our songs have riffs etc. in places we might harmonize.

So main question, can it be that you have to somehow figure out what the vocal melody is (major or minor, or even another key than the "song key"?) in in order to set a pedal to harmonize?

[dlguitar64]

Brown Sugar is in C

[burningyen]

Brown Sugar seems like a particularly tough song for a harmonizer, with almost no parallel motion. But yeah, the harmonize-to-the-guitar-chord thing isn't going to work for that song.

[jacoblee83]

^^ agreed. Also, take a pitch inventory as in what are all of the notes in the melody to analyze the scale. You may want to take into account all of the chords as well. A major key has standard notes and harmonies but many songs venture out of that as Derek Q has mentioned. Mixolydian uses that bluesey dominant 7th or 'flatted' 7th. In D you have a C instead of C#.

Example:
D Major chords: D Em F#m G A Bm C#dim.
D Mixolydian : D Em F#m G A Bm C

There's a song I play with the chords: D Am C G. Those chords are all in the key of G major but the song centers on 'D' So even though I wouldnt say the song is in 'G' I would set my harmonizer for that.

Hope that hopes.

[mark norwine]

I've never found a harmonizer that didn't mess up some harmony somewhere....usually a "wrong type of 7th" or an "unexpected #4"

Honestly, I've always found these things to be more of a pain than they're worth.

[huw]

...Example:
D Major chords: D Em F#m G A Bm C#dim.
D Mixolydian : D Em F#m G A Bm C...

Er, that would be:

D mixolydian: D Em F#dim G Am Bm C.

The b7 note, C, makes the chord on F# dim not minor, and the chord on A min not major.

IOW the same chords as in the key of G major.

[thedroid]

On sheet music you see a key signature -- a number of sharps or flats on the lefthand side by the clef -- that tells you what diatonic scale most, or perhaps all, of the notes in the melody are derived from.

I say "scale," not "key," because as someone pointed out G Major and D Mixolydian, for example, are the same scale, but people sometimes think of them as different keys.

In many songs, you will also see the occasional sharp or flat beside individual notes on the staff. Those are called "accidentals" and indicate notes from outside the scale.

It's the accidentals that your harmonizer will clash with.

They pop up in many songs because of temporary key changes or chords "borrowed" from closely related keys to add interest.

Blues harmony doesn't correspond precisely to any Western key signatures, so it always has accidentals.

Minor key songs also tend to have more accidentals, because the seventh of the scale is sometimes played flat and sometimes as a major seventh.

Jazz standards tend to use accidentals because the harmony is too "vanilla" without them.

[mark norwine]

C'mon...don't think of it as a sharp 4th. It's a FLAT-FIVE, BABY!!!!!!!!:D

only if it's an alteration on a dominant chord.

[StompBoxBlues]

Brown Sugar is in C

Yes, thanks...and we do play it in C...I was at work when I wrote and
didn't have a guitar in front of me, but we do.

Not only that but I messed up in saying the chorus goes from G to D, I meant G to C...sheesh...I wouødn't blame any potential helpers here from dropping out, sorry!!

Even so, it doesn't seem like the harmonizer likes it in C. The chorus is going between G and C, but still seems like G (and I could just be way off, have to listen to the recording we just did at rehearsal...problem is it is hard for me to hear what the harmonies do when I am singing, except only roughly).

Also, again...I'm ignorant of so much regarding harmony singing, but the Stones in this song and also Honky Tonk Woman, I kind of think of as "hillbilly harmony"...is there a name for that particular type if you know what I mean by my phrase? It's usually one or two vocals above the main vocal, and they aren't "pure" major or minor (but more minor) to my ignorant ears...sort of a lazy harmony that isn't always right on?

Some of the answers are making a whooshing sound by my head, as I said I have tried to understand music theory, but only have it yet on a basic level...and time is running out on me...

I guess the absolute MAIN question here from me, while understanding as some of you wrote that a harmonizer is not going to fill all needs perfectly (unless I get a much more advanced one, that can be programmed...and I'm not up for that) but understanding that, the question is....

Key or scale...am I right in thinking that just because a song (the instruments) is in one key doesn't necessarily mean the melody is in that
same key as far as a harmonizer would see it?

Also thanks to all for the great responses...

In the end I liked very much Derek Q's point, and agree...if it sounds right it is..trust my ears. As you all probably have guessed I learned guitar by "ear" and I play by "ear" so...this could work by ear but I would like to know a little to make it less difficult to get to the right settings.

There is a chart that follows with the manual...when I can get a chance I probably might post it here in this thread to see if it sheds any light for the folks that know theory.

I'm really not sure how to even determine the scale or key from the melody...

[RockManDan]

Harmonizers are notoriously bad for any kind of bluesy music. By its very nature it shifts and bends and hops between major and minor harmonies all the time.

[burningyen]

Key or scale...am I right in thinking that just because a song (the instruments) is in one key doesn't necessarily mean the melody is in that same key as far as a harmonizer would see it?
Yes.

[thedroid]

Key or scale...am I right in thinking that just because a song (the instruments) is in one key doesn't necessarily mean the melody is in that
same key as far as a harmonizer would see it?


I'm really not sure how to even determine the scale or key from the melody...

The key of a song is usually an approximation based on the root -- the chord that feels like "home." If that chord is C major, as in "Brown Sugar," then we say the song is in C major, even though, within the first 8 bars or so, it uses chords like Eb, Bb, and Ab, which come from C natural minor. And the melody might ignore the underlying harmony at times, but the root note, C in this case, will still feel like home and have the least tension.

But unfortunately none of this means that a C major scale or pure C major harmonies will sound good played over the song.

[chervokas]

It seems like there are a couple of problems the OP might be having in trying to duplicate those raggedy front porch keening Stones harmonies with a harmonizer set to a major key.

First, often those harmonies don't move in parallel with the melody. Quite often they'll just ride on a single note maybe a 3rd or a 5th above the first melody note even if the melody moves around. If the harmonizer is automatically producing notes a 3rd or a 5th (or both) above the melody you'll never get that single riding note above, which is a big part of that feel.

Second those harmonies aren't always at fixed intervals to the melody.... So, maybe the harmony is singing E above G on a C chord then D above G when the played chord switches to G -- so the third of the C chord above a sung G and then the 5th of the G chord above the same sung G. But maybe the harmonizer is tracking it as a 5th above the sung note, so it's producing D against the sung G the whole time giving you a jazzy C9 harmony above the C chord instead of a straight C major. Is that how these harmonizers work? I have no experience with them.

It seems like if the only input to the harmonizer is the melody note, and it's always reading that note as the root of a chord harmonizing at fixed intervals to that it's going to be challenging.

[StompBoxBlues]

It seems like there are a couple of problems the OP might be having in trying to duplicate those raggedy front porch keening Stones harmonies with a harmonizer set to a major key.

First, often those harmonies don't move in parallel with the melody. Quite often they'll just ride on a single note maybe a 3rd or a 5th above the first melody note even if the melody moves around. If the harmonizer is automatically producing notes a 3rd or a 5th (or both) above the melody you'll never get that single riding note above, which is a big part of that feel.

Second those harmonies aren't always at fixed intervals to the melody.... So, maybe the harmony is singing E above G on a C chord then D above G when the played chord switches to G -- so the third of the C chord above a sung G and then the 5th of the G chord above the same sung G. But maybe the harmonizer is tracking it as a 5th above the sung note, so it's producing D against the sung G the whole time giving you a jazzy C9 harmony above the C chord instead of a straight C major. Is that how these harmonizers work? I have no experience with them.

It seems like if the only input to the harmonizer is the melody note, and it's always reading that note as the root of a chord harmonizing at fixed intervals to that it's going to be challenging.

Thanks to all of you for your help!
And to you, yes, as some above mention the same, and it jibes with my experience, I think you nailed it, even if you have no experience with Harmonizers...that all is exactly what seems to be happening.

I really had no illusions that a harmonizer was going to fill all needs. I'm a decent (on some songs) vocalist, not a great one, and nobody else in the band is willing to try harmony, so I think...in no small bit thanks you guys, I have a strategy...

I write them here in case anyone else is like me...looking to see how they can use this thing..

- I think my hunch was right, so basically "best guess" as to what "key" to set the harmonizer to, and go from there, realizing it might be a totally different key that works. Also that I can make an educated (or not so educated) guess, by what I think the vocal melody scale is (key, and major or OTHER...minor, etc.

- realize that it isn't going to work right on all types of songs. Bluesy songs might be hardest...but I can also try not using a full (two or three) part harmony, but could try above or below only..(one extra voice) and also if it mostly is good, can mix it down so barely heard...

- Seems like also I have a little bit of control as to how strong the harmony vocals are by using proximity effect on the mic. I noticed that if I am singing about 6" or more from the mic, there is no harmony. If I am rigth up on the mic they are strong (I also have a mix knob for dry-effected but whatever I set that to, the proximity effect seems to also really affect it)...so I may play with it to if songs where 90% of the harmonies are right, but not on some "blue notes", see if I can back up slightly so there are no harmony on the notes that they mess up.

- Going to have to evaluate just how much this brings to the table. For one it might bother folks in the audience that see one singer and hear three...luckily with my voice there is NO way they are going to conclude that I'm lyp syncing it all, nobody would record it as I sing :messedup

- The preamp circuit in the pedal is pretty damned good. It definitely helps a lot when you are going into a not-so-great PA...it can boost and it's a lot more solid than adjusting some PA's input gain. For that reason alone I think I'm going to be bringing it to practice and gigs. If it weren't for that, I think with our material it wouldn't be worth the trouble as only about 3-4 songs would benefit from it, out of like 25 or so. But if I have it there anyway...might as well use it.

- As I said, it's hard to hear too while singing, how well it is doing. I think to really judge the settings I have to sit at home, with a recorder, or video so I can see the settings and just try some of our songs, see which settings work best.

[chervokas]

I think the easiest solution is to get someone to sing those high harmonies..... I mean Keith wasn't, and isn't, exactly Phil Everly....those are ragged and simple harmonies. It's gonna be faster and easier to figure out that the harmony notes are and have someone sing 'em than to try to get a simple program that just generates pitched at fixed intervals to sound right on them.

[StompBoxBlues]

I think the easiest solution is to get someone to sing those high harmonies..... I mean Keith wasn't, and isn't, exactly Phil Everly....those are ragged and simple harmonies. It's gonna be faster and easier to figure out that the harmony notes are and have someone sing 'em than to try to get a simple program that just generates pitched at fixed intervals to sound right on them.

Believe me, if I could I would. Nobody is willing to try. I actually think a few of them could do it good enough, but they won't sing.

[Frank Prince]

I have been interested in this for a while. For some reason, I don't "hear" harmony vocals as well as I can hear guitar or bass parts, so they are much more difficult for me to transcribe.

I think as far as the theory goes, as some others have said, a lot of them are based on standard chord inversions. Learning basic triad inversions and voice leading on the piano will go a LONG way towards helping with this since most vocal harmonies will follow or infer the underlying chord changes in a tune. Understanding and being able to instantly recognize intervals of a 3rd, 4th, 5th, 6th, and octave will also take you a long way since these are the building blocks of probably 98% of the 2 part harmonies you will hear, and then the 3rd and 4th parts are usually added on with one of those intervals.

As far as tools go, EQ and multiband compression can help with bringing gindividual parts out, and if you are proficient with a DAW you can probably slice out individual sections and loop them so they sound like one sustained chord stack that can be heard and processed easier.