Layered Rosewood boards on new Gibsons....?

[jazzandmetal?]

What is it? Does that mean it has a rosewood veneer on top of something else?

[dspellman]

Gibson is claiming that they're putting two half-thickness rosewood boards on top of one another (with both rosewood). It's possible that they're running them cross-grain, but that's not necessarily true. In any case, it seems obvious that it's a measure occasioned by their inability to bring full-thickness boards into the US (likely in part because of the ongoing investigation into their wood-purchasing procedures, which allegedly supported illegal logging and destruction of habitat for endangered species.

In any case, it may or may not affect the tone of the instruments and it may or may not affect the instruments long term (refretting, neck stability, etc.).

There are a lot of other manufacturers who still have traditional fretboard woods on their new instruments, and there are certainly a lot of used Gibsons available that do as well. Buy what you're comfortable with.

[patentcad]

Like I've said before, for 2012 the Gibson Custom Shop offers you a choice of Indian or Brazilian Plywood.

[patentcad]

Are they going to extend this RW plywood approach to the cheaper (Gibson USA) guitars too? Or will those be baked maple?

[mullytron]

IME, any time you laminate any wood to any other wood, the resonant peak shifts higher and the harmonics get deader. "The Sound Of Glue."

[Ron Kirn]

any time you laminate any wood to any other wood, the resonant peak shifts higher and the harmonics get deader. "The Sound Of Glue."

Is that based on empirical data, or is it just another "myth" gong around....

the comment about glue, makes me wonder how many actually know how glue, at least the glues we use, work.

Ron Kirn

[dysorexia]

Glue makes your tone sound dead. Got it...

[vivaoaxaca]

IME, any time you laminate any wood to any other wood, the resonant peak shifts higher and the harmonics get deader. "The Sound Of Glue."

So what exactly is the sonic effect of the glue that's used to affix a single-piece fretboard to a neck?

I've thought ever since I heard about the new fretboard construction at Gibson and read the first complaints about it that it was much ado about nothing. If you want to make the argument that it isn't historically accurate then fine, make that argument. But I'm much more interested in how it sounds and feels than whether or not it was done that way in Kalamazoo in 1959.

As to a difference when a refret is done, can someone please explain to me why there would be any problem? While you're at it maybe you can explain how the composition of the fretboard could affect neck stability. The fretboard is attached to the neck and the neck is attached to the body. This argument carried to it's logical conclusion would imply that the headstock veneer material could somehow affect neck joint stability.

I don't know how the new fretboards sound or feel, but I'm betting I can't tell the difference in a blind test. If I ever get to play one and if I can tell the difference I'll report back with my thoughts. I'd encourage anyone else to do the same. If you play one and can quantify the reasons you think it's worse or better than the traditional one-piece board, then great. But "It's different" or "uh.... Glue!" isn't a well thought out criticism. And if your concern is purely with historical accuracy, then just say so. It's ok if that's what you value.

[billfoma]

IME, any time you laminate any wood to any other wood, the resonant peak shifts higher and the harmonics get deader. "The Sound Of Glue."

So then a Les Paul must be the most dead sounding guitar around? Glued in neck, glued on top, glued on board...

Same goes for PRS. I suppose Fender too. Only the Strats or Teles with glued on rosewood boards though, right?

WOW, what is the point of playing any guitar, really? They all have glue. That's it! I'm selling everything and getting a saxophone!

[TRS1]

This has been discussed many times before and like its predecessors this will go south quickly

[Ron Kirn]

Glue makes your tone sound dead. Got it...

No, actually I "don't got it"... if there's specific research that supports such a hypothetical, I'll be happy to re-evaluate my position... But.... I've heard a lot, I mean a lot of guitars with the unjustly accused sonic impediment, glue, holding a really nice top on some equally nice bodies, and holding really nicely done necks to amazing bodies....

Has anyone carved a complete guitar out of one solid hunk of wood to make a comparison?

So.... what do luthiers use? Duct tape 'n staples?

Ron Kirn..

[Wasatch]

So then a Les Paul must be the most dead sounding guitar around? Glued in neck, glued on top, glued on board...

Same goes for PRS. I suppose Fender too. Only the Strats or Teles with glued on rosewood boards though, right?

WOW, what is the point of playing any guitar, really? They all have glue. That's it! I'm selling everything and getting a saxophone!

LOL. But actually, saxophones have tons of glue holding all of those pads in, so... :stir

[Patrick2]

No, actually I "don't got it"... if there's specific research that supports such a hypothetical, I'll be happy to re-evaluate my position... But.... I've heard a lot, I mean a lot of guitars with the unjustly accused sonic impediment, glue, holding a really nice top on some equally nice bodies, and holding really nicely done necks to amazing bodies....

Has anyone carved a complete guitar out of one solid hunk of wood to make a comparison?

So.... what do luthiers use? Duct tape 'n staples?

Ron Kirn..

Last time I was up at our plant in Kalamazoo, the one and only lovely lady we have working there (we lovingly call her "the girl")was pounding 10 penny nails through the rosewood to hold the finger board onto the maple neck. When I asked why she was using such large nails, she said that it increases the sustain exponentially. She did say she was having a real hard time getting the nails through the genuine MOP trap inlay position markers on the fret board . . . kept splitting them. The binding was being staple set into the neck and the body. The easiest part of the whole process were the stainless steel beauty bolts and brass wood screws that were used to afix the 2 piece maple top to the Mahog body. HOWEVER!! When I asked her how she was holding the two pieces of the maple top together, she hung her head in shame and said . . . under her breath . . . . "glue". So then . . . we too are guilty of using . . . GLUE!! :eek: :stir

[I'm Incinerator]

I'm a little confused by the whole Gibson wood situation, probably won't affect me, unless I wait a few years to buy a used 2012 guitar...

If it is a "historic" aspect, then how is using other species of rosewood other than old growth brazie rw, any other mahogany species other than old growth mahogany, and any maple species other than old growth hard eastern maple for the historic RI's. I don't think CNC machines or plek machines were used in 52-60 either.

I won't give in to speculation or the rampant Henry J-isms over the laminated fretboard issues until I play one. If it sounds good and it feels good, and there won't be any issues down the road...why not?

[Abe]

No, actually I "don't got it"... if there's specific research that supports such a hypothetical, I'll be happy to re-evaluate my position... But.... I've heard a lot, I mean a lot of guitars with the unjustly accused sonic impediment, glue, holding a really nice top on some equally nice bodies, and holding really nicely done necks to amazing bodies....

Has anyone carved a complete guitar out of one solid hunk of wood to make a comparison?

So.... what do luthiers use? Duct tape 'n staples?

Ron Kirn..

I remember reading a magazine article from the very early 80's about a luthier who carved a complete one piece guitar from a log of lignum vitae. It was said to be pretty dark sounding guitar but with unparalleled sustain...

I think it was in an issue of Guitar World.

[Peteyvee]

Last time I was up at our plant in Kalamazoo, the one and only lovely lady we have working there (we lovingly call her "the girl")was pounding 10 penny nails through the rosewood to hold the finger board onto the maple neck. When I asked why she was using such large nails, she said that it increases the sustain exponentially. She did say she was having a real hard time getting the nails through the genuine MOP trap inlay position markers on the fret board . . . kept splitting them. The binding was being staple set into the neck and the body. The easiest part of the whole process were the stainless steel beauty bolts and brass wood screws that were used to afix the 2 piece maple top to the Mahog body. HOWEVER!! When I asked her how she was holding the two pieces of the maple top together, she hung her head in shame and said . . . under her breath . . . . "glue". So then . . . we too are guilty of using . . . GLUE!! :eek: :stir

:spit

[coreybox]

Has anyone carved a complete guitar out of one solid hunk of wood to make a comparison?


Some ritter basses have a body/neck carved out of one piece of wood, but have a separate fingerboard glued on.

http://www.ritter-instruments.com/instruments/2007/0725-1.jpg

[SlyStrat]

Some of my best toned guitars had pieces glued together for the body.

I bet NO ONE could hear the difference between a one or two piece fret board.

[hacker]

Jeez, I hate those laminated ES-335s that Gibson's been making all these years. Can't they use solid tops on those?

[Brett Faust]

I think I will just mount some truss rods on a rosewood tree and wait for the wood to grow over them. This process will make a true one piece neck but the lead time on a build can be quite a while.

[jimshine]

It is a common misconception. Don't get all upset at the guy. It is not the glue itself that has a negative affect on the tone, it is the sniffing of the glue that alters how we perceive it.

[BarryE]

I thought the sniffing of the the glue was the crucial element in the whole process. All those years of telling my folks I needed more glue for making model airplanes when I was improving my musical sound.

[axe4me]

I haven't purchased a new Gibson guitar since 2004.
Henry J. = PT Barnum.

[BrentB6]

Some ritter basses have a body/neck carved out of one piece of wood, but have a separate fingerboard glued on.

http://www.ritter-instruments.com/instruments/2007/0725-1.jpg

They must be crap then....oh well:nuts
The only thing that should be different with the new laminated boards is a lower cost for the consumer.

[coreybox]

The only thing that should be different with the new laminated boards is a lower cost for the consumer.

Maybe. It uses the same amount of rosewood, but now requires an extra step of glueing them together.

[RedTiger]

Last time I was up at our plant in Kalamazoo, the one and only lovely lady we have working there (we lovingly call her "the girl")was pounding 10 penny nails through the rosewood to hold the finger board onto the maple neck. When I asked why she was using such large nails, she said that it increases the sustain exponentially. She did say she was having a real hard time getting the nails through the genuine MOP trap inlay position markers on the fret board . . . kept splitting them. The binding was being staple set into the neck and the body. The easiest part of the whole process were the stainless steel beauty bolts and brass wood screws that were used to afix the 2 piece maple top to the Mahog body. HOWEVER!! When I asked her how she was holding the two pieces of the maple top together, she hung her head in shame and said . . . under her breath . . . . "glue". So then . . . we too are guilty of using . . . GLUE!! :eek: :stir

Well played, sir.

[patentcad]

I haven't purchased a new Gibson guitar since 2004.
Henry J. = PT Barnum.

Ok, but the two 2011 Les Pauls I purchased in the last few months (a Standard Plus and an R0) are the best Lesters I've owned, they are better than the ones I had ten years ago.

http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y117/patentcad/GrailLester3.jpg

http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y117/patentcad/PcadEgnaterStack.jpg

[Jon@Home]

Laminated woods are for two things, make something cheaper or stronger. I not being a guitar expert can only speak from my experience playing various guitars, that and 25 years as a woodworker. From what I can tell the biggest tone killer is plywood tops on acoustic guitars. That is where you will hear the difference right away. But on electrics, it's all about playability and electronics.

[BrentB6]

Maybe. It uses the same amount of rosewood, but now requires an extra step of glueing them together.

The top veneer may be rosewood or a better grade....doubt that the other plys would be the same if rosewood at all. Why go through a lamination process using all grade a rosewood the extra expense for more labour and materials(glue). Cheaper guitars for the most part have used veneer tops and plywood boards. Having said that...I doubt I could hear the difference anyway. Don't forget that mass production ply boards are not made one at a time.

[bterry]

Laminated woods are for two things, make something cheaper or stronger. I not being a guitar expert can only speak from my experience playing various guitars, that and 25 years as a woodworker. From what I can tell the biggest tone killer is plywood tops on acoustic guitars. That is where you will hear the difference right away. But on electrics, it's all about playability and electronics.

I have a bit of a hard time believing this from my own experience. I have played many modern guitars with boutique pickups and "the best" electronics and the outcome varies widely from block of wood to block of wood.

I have also played quite a few 80's Japanese copies that, with their inferior pickups and electronics, sound better than some modern custom shop and boutique models I have played.

Basically, it is a combination of many variables and it is a crap shoot. Also, it is always about the sum of the parts and not necessarily the parts themselves.

[magicaxeman]

It really all boils down to whether or not the customers will accept the stop gap measures currently being used, and whether Gibson decides to retain the woods/resin boards etc they are currently using.

I wouldn't lay out hard cash on a standard without a nice simple single slab of rosewood on it.
It's also worrying that there is no price reduction to reflect the cheaper materials used on some of the guitars.

All in all I think Gibson need to be very careful as they could see themselves relegated from the top marques list for anything other than pre woodgate guitars.

[mullytron]

Is that based on empirical data, or is it just another "myth" gong around....

the comment about glue, makes me wonder how many actually know how glue, at least the glues we use, work.

Ron Kirn

I don't mean to talk out of turn, I'm definitely no chemist. I would be curious to compare the new Gibson fingerboard to a traditional one, just to try it. Other than using them in guitar repair and construction, the only real empirical data I have about glues is extremely anecdotal, in that it involved me and a friend gluing pieces of various species of tone wood together, finishing some of them, leaving them in an outdoor spot, and checking how they reacted over about 6 months. I forget the details, it was his pet project, but we wiped them down with acetone first, and used a bunch of different types of glue (aliphatic resins, polyvinyl, some cements, acrylics, 2part marine epoxies, and some other 2part catalyzed glues, including a construction type and a dental type. FWIW the dental glue seemed to be the most stable...) We sanded all the samples to 220, mixed all the 2part stuff right, and used multiple Bessey clamps without starving the joints, but it still doesn't prove anything. We never made a bunch necks a bunch of different ways and rigorously compared the sound or anything.

Isn't it similar to the nitro/polyester finish issue? If you can get it thin and hard, either finish works great, and sounds great. I don't mean to suggest that any glue has a sound, but that in the more laminated designs (beyond maple/maho necks and bodies), what you are for sure NOT hearing is a single piece of wood, under tension, being excited by string vibration, which I think is a sound that is subtle and unique. Laminated construction is great for a lot of things, like 335 tops, or laminated bracing, it's not either-or. I like rosewood fingerboard Fender necks and one-piece maple necks, but not for the same reasons.

Just as a player, I feel like all the classic laminated bodies and laminated neck designs, and to a different extent, neck-thru designs, exhibit a certain linearity in the midrange that I associate with a damped lower midrange response. You're right though, I should have more data though, to make claims.

I thought this was interesting, from Frank Montuoro:

"In the case of the guitars that I have built I have noticed that the guitars built utilizing hide glue have a much more desirable tone, to me that is. And that is one thing that I feel to be very important is that the guy or girl building the instrument be satisfied with the materials they use as well as their particular methods.

Hide glue has been around forever and for good reason. As well it is by far and wide much stronger then white or yellow glue. And when used for building musical instruments it allows for uninterrupted transmission of vibration which of course translates into that great old woody, percussive and responsive sound we all love so much.

Yellow and white glues IMO are carpenters glue and have no place in guitar making, that's my opinion. I am sure if they were not so easy to use and readily available people would not even bother with them. The reality of the situation is that guitar factories only got into using aliphatic resin glues because they set up faster and are easy to operate. Martin for instance didn't switch to these types of glues because they made the guitars sound better. They make the money a little faster.

Yellow glue creeps under even mild heat conditions where hide glue does not. It is supposed to creep slightly that is what is partly designed to do. Now it doesn't mean your guitar is going to fly apart but what it does mean is that this creep allows for dampening to occur in sensitive joints. This creep is what will change the way your guitar is going to sound over the years. What I tend to hear is a pillow like tone that lacks character, depth, articulation and power. Yes it might be a nice sound but it's not the same sound that a hide glue instrument would make.

The thing to take into consideration is the guitars you are referring to in this thread for the most part are very new instruments. They still have years to go before they even start to develop their true character of sound. I can guarantee you that if you put any guitar made with yellow glue next to a guitar made with hide 10, 20 years from now you will know exactly why hide glue should be the only glue to use when making guitars or anything you want to sound as good as it can sound.

Stanford University had done extensive testing on hide vs yellow and white glues. One year later and hundreds of tests later time and time and time again hide glue remained the clear winner when it came to strength from sheer testing as well as severe heat and humidity ranges of 10% humidity to 100%, as well as temps that went all the way up to 375 degrees!!! The hide still held longer then all of the other aliphatic resin glues.

Here is something that Frank Ford has said about hide vs titebond- I'd heard so much discussion about the various qualities of glue joints that I finally decided to do a little testing of my own. As you may know, my goal is to make luthiers aware of the tendency of aliphatic resin and white glue (I tend to use Titebond as a generic term) to creep under even mild heat. I felt I learned that hide glue in normal joint will stand up to heat so much better that the commonly used Titebond aliphatic resin that I've really become a crusader for the use of hide glue in highly sensitive stressed joints.
The facts boil down to this. You may never be able to tell the difference between the way two guitars sound one using yellow vs the other hide but the person building the guitar sure does.
Everyone out there building musical instruments can try and convince themselves that yellow glue is just as good but it just is not. If we are going to take the time to discuss top material, top thickness, lightness of the build, finish, pyramid bridges etc we can't ignore the true hard facts. That is none of these materials would even be able to come together if it wasn't for the glue that binds them. The glue IMHO makes more of a dramatic effect on the sound ( of a hand made guitar ) then most any of the other factors including the finish. It is what joins all of the integral parts of these musical machines together and we would be foolish to assume that the type of glues we use or don't use will not have a dramatic effect on the tone of the instrument.

I personally don't charge more money to use hide glue I use it because there is no alternative to a glue for me personally. I would not feel right knowing what I know to go and use yellow glue because it's more convenient to use. I can hear the difference even if my client can't and that means something to me. I need to be just as satisfied as the person getting the guitar. Everyone out there woodworking in general should learn how to work with hide glue you can't complete this kind of journey without familiarizing yourself with it. There are many things in this world that technology may make faster but by no means will make better. And that is truly the case with instruments and the glue that binds them...

I am sorry for being so long winded but this is a subject I take very seriously and is close to my heart. Don't be fooled there is no substitute for hide glue in a guitar. I will stand by that statement forever http://www.ezboard.com/intl/aenglish/images/emoticons/smile.gif"

Some might say extremist I guess, but he's built a few nice ones!

[pcovers]

In the world of guitar obsession, there is not a molecule that is not subject to the "I truly honestly believe" factor. There is no religion more grounded in blind faith, radical dogma, mysticism, and ancestor worship than the religion of guitar.

Blatant, observable contradictions to a "belief" has little power to influence. It is what it is.

[Tubevalvemaniac]

Glue makes your tone sound dead. Got it...

There are supplies of fantastic toneglues on horizon.
It is not so important whether the wood is plywood, laminated or solid.

[Dev...in]

Im not going to get pulled into a debate about how glue sounds. But i will say the point of contention for me is it seems everyone would rather have a one piece board. ....There are many many other much cheaper guitars that feature this. But what choice does Gibson have? seems like they are in really deep water.

[MKB]

It always struck me as strange that Gibson makes it a point to list the glue they use in some guitar assemblies, and in every case I can recall it was all Titebond. It makes no sense. Why brag about the glue you use when you use the bad (from a tone perspective) stuff?

[Dev...in]

titebond does make a hide glue i think fwiw

[overunderdrive]

No, actually I "don't got it"... if there's specific research that supports such a hypothetical, I'll be happy to re-evaluate my position... But.... I've heard a lot, I mean a lot of guitars with the unjustly accused sonic impediment, glue, holding a really nice top on some equally nice bodies, and holding really nicely done necks to amazing bodies....

Has anyone carved a complete guitar out of one solid hunk of wood to make a comparison?

So.... what do luthiers use? Duct tape 'n staples?

Ron Kirn..

I certainly understand your point, even if it is a bit disingenuous.

But the real question here comes down to logic.

Does a laminate fretboard affect either the tone or long-term stability of an instrument?

If it does, are the effects positive or negative?

And if so, how? and why?

And if the answer is no to both questions, why aren't more builders doing it? And why haven't they up till now.

I personally find it hard to believe that a change to laminate would have zero influence on tone, but I'm certainly open to persuasive arguments, as well as scientific evidence...

[Ron Kirn]

here it is a gain... yet another discussion about something of such infinitesimally small importance to the overall performance of a guitar..


First, how would you compare laminated fingerboards to non laminated boards... It couldn't be done by playing similar guitars, one with, one without.... Why . . . Because it's an absolute impossibility to build 2 guitars that sound identical... they can be close... but in a sound lab... the similarities fall apart like a house of cards in a hurricane...

the sound difference would, under the most extreme circumstances be so subtle, all but the most acutely sensitive hearing, could detect it. Ummm you guitar playing rascals... we have all been accused of many things... but after years of standing in front of a stack of amps cranking at +90 db... having acutely sensitive hearing ain't on the list.

If the "tone conundrum" were a calendar year... I'd break it down like this . . . your talent would carry you from January 1, to October 1... the amp would take you to December 15th...then we would all take the next 11 days off . . . . all the other shi* we argue about would happen in those last 5 days... And as ya all know... nobody does diddly between Christmas and New Years...

Ron Kirn

[SPROING!]

I certainly understand your point, even if it is a bit disingenuous.

But the real question here comes down to logic.

Does a laminate fretboard affect either the tone or long-term stability of an instrument?

If it does, are the effects positive or negative?

And if so, how? and why?

And if the answer is no to both questions, why aren't more builders doing it? And why haven't they up till now.

I personally find it hard to believe that a change to laminate would have zero influence on tone, but I'm certainly open to persuasive arguments, as well as scientific evidence...

I can offer one piece of real world experience. Not long ago, I had a guy make a tele neck for me from black walnut. He abandoned the project before finishing and left me with a partially completed neck that was way out of spec. Way too thin. The neck, in its original form, was quite springy and flexible.
I removed the rosewood fingerboard and grafted in a 1/8" thick pice of walnut between the original neck and then replace the fingerboard.
This sint an exact comparison, as I actually changed the neck's dimensions, however, compared to another walnut neck of equal size, the one with the additional lamination is much stiffer.
Not really a surprise, as we all know laminates are stiffer than solid pieces.
Whether stiffer is good or bad is up to you. I'm a fan and will likely use the technique again. I hate spaghetti necks.

[SPROING!]

Oops. Pic of said lamination...

http://i677.photobucket.com/albums/vv134/EliasGraves/OklahomaCity-20120115-00799.jpg

[cardamonfrost]

I'm selling everything and getting a saxophone!

If you think glue is bad, wait till you hear the sound of weld!

:)
C

[SPROING!]

If you think glue is bad, wait till you hear the sound of weld!

:)
C

It's fine if they use vintage sticks. New welders make horrible, shrill sounding seams, though. It's awful.

[overunderdrive]

If the "tone conundrum" were a calendar year... I'd break it down like this . . . your talent would carry you from January 1, to October 1... the amp would take you to December 15th...then we would all take the next 11 days off . . . . all the other shi* we argue about would happen in those last 5 days... And as ya all know... nobody does diddly between Christmas and New Years...

Ron Kirn

I like the analogy, but I think it works in reverse as well.

if you start from the position of perfect talent and the perfect amp, then in order to get the perfect tone, you'd need the perfect guitar.

which, of course, doesn't exist. but let's just say, for the sake of argument, that a '59 burst is a perfect guitar.

so that's your full 'year'.

swap out the PAFs, and your probably down to 6 months. use Basswood instead of Mahogany for the body, and you're down to 3 months. Add a maple neck, you're down to 2 months. Remove the carved maple top, you're at 1 month. change the hardware, your at 2 weeks. use a poly finish instead of nitro, your at week 1.

get ready for it....

use a laminated rosewood fingerboard, and you're at January 1. New Years Day.

And who in their right mind doesn't hate new year's day?

NOBODY!

[cardamonfrost]

First, how would you compare laminated fingerboards to non laminated boards... It couldn't be done by playing similar guitars, one with, one without.... Why . . . Because it's an absolute impossibility to build 2 guitars that sound identical... they can be close... but in a sound lab... the similarities fall apart like a house of cards in a hurricane...



You could increase the sample size of the test. Then the pools would show less deviation on a whole. IS there a point> not sure, I dont think anything other than a computer will show the differnce in tone. Of course, the player will feel a differnce, as the lam necks should be stiffer.

C

[mullytron]

all the other shi* we argue about would happen in those last 5 days... And as ya all know... nobody does diddly between Christmas and New Years...

Well put.

[AD_]

A high quality glue of proper characteristics is a necessary component of building a guitar. With some exception to certain designs that employ metal fasteners, it is what holds the different pieces of the guitar together. Without it, there would be no guitar, just the same as one can't have a guitar without a neck.

However, it should be used only when necessary as structural demands dictate. This laminated fingerboard idea from Gibson is a political compromise. It is the result of human laws and bureaucracy and not of careful design for the benefit of the guitar's sound, strength, or cosmetics. I will not own a laminated Gibson guitar for this reason of principle alone. Call me shortsighted or eccentric, but I disagree with everything surrounding Gibson's recent seizure of wood and I don't want a guitar made to compromise its specs due to a legal battle. I'll look harder and find a better-made used instrument.

[Ron Kirn]

in order to get the perfect tone, you'd need the perfect guitar.

Interesting thought... would you describe the perfect tone... while you're at it, describe the perfect Woman, Song, Sunset, Beer, Work of art, Car, Pair of shoes, Pizza, Number of colors in a box of Crayons, and on and on....

I'm not trying to be a snot.... just making a point... these discussions about things we make CHOICES about cannot be definitively defined. To even try is a study in futility..

We can express opinions... but to attach a definitive applicable to everyone is nuts...Last time I was in a crowd, I noticed something I realized long ago.... we're all different... and guess what. . . It's OK... I approve... ;)

Ron Kirn

[overunderdrive]

I dont think anything other than a computer will show the differnce in tone.

I think you're probably right, but the converse of this argument is that if the small details--which can't be measured individually--don't matter, then NOTHING matters.

If we agree that any instrument--guitar or otherwise--is basically the sum of it's materials and construction, then the small things do matter.

the end result is the accumulation of many small things...from the wire in the pickups, to the tap tone of the body wood, to the break-angle of the strings off the bridge, to the radius of the fingerboard, etc, etc.

I guess my question, again, is if this seemingly minute detail--laminate v. solid fingerboard--doesn't matter, then what DOES matter?

[patentcad]

In order to get the perfect tone you'd have to be J. Bonamassa. The guitar is not relevant.

[mhz88]

If we agree that any instrument--guitar or otherwise--is basically the sum of it's materials and construction, then the small things do matter.

the end result is the accumulation of many small things...from the wire in the pickups, to the tap tone of the body wood, to the break-angle of the strings off the bridge, to the radius of the fingerboard, etc, etc.

I guess my question, again, is if this seemingly minute detail--laminate v. solid fingerboard--doesn't matter, then what DOES matter?

this probably sounds stupid, but just my 2 cents ...

Can this be compared to the following scenario, leather seats vs cloth seats in a car, in that they do matter in the manufacturing of the car, functional or aesthetic. However, whether faux or real leather are used, our butts probably can't tell the difference.

[sanhozay]

people heed too much these days. they heed lifestyle, heed their bride, heed their friends, their physician, their pastor, the internet, search engines, the gear page, the pedal builder, the guitar builder, the administrators. like living one's life on the sidelines; watching the big game play out before their eyes and borrowed time.

it's super cool that people are still prepared to argue out music with their instrument of choice in hand versus taking a side, or insatiably heeding & hoarding completely useless information. good is good & bad is bad and greatness is arguable. all day long.

[MKB]

titebond does make a hide glue i think fwiw
Some Gibsons are supposed to use Franklin Titebond 50, which is an aliphatic resin glue:

http://www.franklinadhesivesandpolymers.com/Wood-Adhesives-International/Wood-Adhesives/Application/Assembly/Titebond-50.aspx

One Gibson example, note the Adhesive section:

http://www2.gibson.com/Products/Electric-Guitars/Les-Paul/Gibson-USA/Les-Paul-Traditional/Neck-and-Headstock.aspx (http://www2.gibson.com/Products/Electric-Guitars/Les-Paul/Gibson-USA/Les-Paul-Traditional/Body.aspx)

They also use it to glue the body together.

[patentcad]

It's a sticky situation.

[pcovers]

I think you're probably right, but the converse of this argument is that if the small details--which can't be measured individually--don't matter, then NOTHING matters.

I guess my question, again, is if this seemingly minute detail--laminate v. solid fingerboard--doesn't matter, then what DOES matter?

That would be a straw man premise. Because it is very definitely possible that some things really do not matter, where matter is associated with measurable audible differences and yet other things absolutely do matter.

One example is pickups. There is no need for computers to prove or demonstrate a difference between the audible perception of HBs vs single coil. There would be very few who cannot hear the difference; whether the HB is on a strat or set neck, it can be discerned by most well informed players as different from the same guitars fitted with, say, a lisptick single. There are things that do make a difference in almost every application. Things that don't require a belief system to hear. An EQ circuit will produce very clear and universally heard differences in tone. Not to say everyone agrees to how that is qualitatively described, but it is almost universally heard.

It is possible for little things that do not matter to coexist with other things that do. It is not all or nothing.

As for the sum of the parts concept, if each minute piece that makes up the sum total cannot be predictably applied to produce a known and audible impact, then how can one imagine the many unpredictable pieces can then be put together to produce a sum total based predictable impact.

I defer to Ron Kirn's positions previously posted. A voice of reason in the murky water of guitar lore and minutia.

[Bluedawg]

If it plays well and sounds good ...

I don't care


:banana

[deadbeat son]

The top veneer may be rosewood or a better grade....doubt that the other plys would be the same if rosewood at all. Why go through a lamination process using all grade a rosewood the extra expense for more labour and materials(glue). Cheaper guitars for the most part have used veneer tops and plywood boards. Having said that...I doubt I could hear the difference anyway. Don't forget that mass production ply boards are not made one at a time.

Because rosewood fretboards of the proper thickness aren't available. It's as simple as that.

Indian export law prohibits shipment of unfinished goods greater than a certain thickness, but not veneers. The Lacy Act makes it illegal to import things that are deemed illegal for export by the country of origin.

Therefore, Gibson cannot legally import Indian rosewood boards as thick as they would like, so they laminate two thinner "veneers" together to make a fretboard.

[overunderdrive]

It is possible for little things that do not matter to coexist with other things that do. It is not all or nothing.



I agree to some extent, although one could argue that form is function, and--with the exception of purely cosmetic flourishes--it would seem that most of the details on a Les Paul, however small, are there for a reason.

but we are not talking about an insignificant detail. small, maybe. but not insignificant.

and the significance might be broader than simply the effect on tone or stability.

at least IMHO, there is the issue of bucking what has become an industry standard for at least 100 years--if not longer--and 'pitching' that divergence in what many have expressed is a disingenuous way.

I've said this before, and I think it's pretty obvious: if there were any advantage to laminated fingerboards other than cost and/or solving Gibson's particular shortage issues, this idea would have been embraced long ago, and there would be plenty of guitars on the market with laminate fingerboards.

but there aren't. even the cheapest imports have solid rosewood boards.

[pcovers]

I agree to some extent, although one could argue that form is function, and--with the exception of purely cosmetic flourishes--it would seem that most of the details on a Les Paul, however small, are there for a reason.

but we are not talking about an insignificant detail. small, maybe. but not insignificant.

and the significance might be broader than simply the effect on tone or stability.

at least IMHO, there is the issue of bucking what has become an industry standard for at least 100 years--if not longer--and 'pitching' that divergence in what many have expressed is a disingenuous way.

I've said this before, and I think it's pretty obvious: if there were any advantage to laminated fingerboards other than cost and/or solving Gibson's particular shortage issues, this idea would have been embraced long ago, and there would be plenty of guitars on the market with laminate fingerboards.

but there aren't. even the cheapest imports have solid rosewood boards.

But it is just as likely that there was never a need to even consider benefit or lack thereof with a laminated fretboards as solid are so much easier to deal with and plentiful to find. And to another point, there is nothing that suggests that laminated fretboards would not have been "better". If a guitar with a laminated fretboard does not differentiate from one with a solid, in a blind playing or listening test, then the proof is in the pudding and the inconsequential reality is what it is for those not prejudiced to the concept.

[overunderdrive]

If a guitar with a laminated fretboard does not differentiate from one with a solid, in a blind playing or listening test, then the proof is in the pudding and the inconsequential reality is what it is for those not prejudiced to the concept.

That might just be my new sig...lol.

but all kidding aside, we could go round and round on this, but for me the bottom line is that Gibson can spin this all they want, but in the end it's a solution to a problem...

and that problem, unfortunately, is not how they can make their guitars sound and play better.

in any case, I don't really buy new guitars anyway, so if I buy a Gibson, I won't have to worry about it...

[pcovers]

That might just be my new sig...lol.

but all kidding aside, we could go round and round on this, but for me the bottom line is that Gibson can spin this all they want, but in the end it's a solution to a problem...

and that problem, unfortunately, is not how they can make their guitars sound and play better.

Ok, if that is one of your main points, we are in 100% agreement on that.

[MKB]

One thing is for sure; the second Gibson can start getting reliable supplies of rosewood and mahogany that won't get them busted, they are going to drop this lamination stuff immediately and go back to the old way of doing things. The laminated fingerboard and roasted maple guitars will take a HUGE hit in resale as a result. Maybe eventually they will go back up in value, but that will take decades.

[Stringrazor]

I don't understand why Gibson is shooting themselves in the foot with laminated and resin boards on fairly expensive guitars (ok, maybe not expensive compared to CS Historics but still not cheap). I just got a 2012 SG Standard and it has a Katalox board which is a species of Ebony from Mexico. From what I've read it's pretty sustainable and other companies like Martin are using it. I think it sounds, looks, and feels fine and it's solid "tonewood". The SG Standard is one of their less expensive models so why aren't they using more Katalox?

[blong]

If glue makes guitars sound dead, then all Les Pauls, PRSi, laminate hollow and semihollow body guitars, and all acoustics should sound like caca. I did not want to get involved in an argument where convincing others is probably not possible, but I can't allow myself let more internet mythology become widespread. There is so much crap out there that people speak as if they are an authority about that really know very little about guitar construction that it disturbs me a bit. As a professor, I can't stand when people (especially teachers, but anyone for that matter) spread misinformation. If you dont' know what you are talking about and you are using Aristotelian logic, then please refrain.

I bet if Gibson and Fender were using this laminate fingerboard process in the 50-s and up to today, and then went to one piece boards, half of these misinformed individuals would state, in a knee-jerk fashion, "I don't think solid boards would sound good. They're not glued like the old ones."

It's mystical voodoo, and bad logic. Remember, the entire world of educated people believed two objects of different mass would fall at different rates b/c the heavier one would obviously fall faster. Aristotle argued this. He was a great mind, so everyone accepted it. Then Gallileo did the experiment and discovered that all falling objects accelerate at the same rate, 32 feet per second per second. Alas, the entire scientific world and their logic was proven wrong.

Believe it if you want, but until I play a few I won't make up my mind. B/c it is impossible to do a fully objective experiment eliminating all other factors as possible inluences on tone difference, it can't be determined. So, if it feels good and sounds good, I don't care if "the girl" at Gibson did staple and bolt it together, I will play it and enjoy the hell out of it.

I like teles and strats, but bolt-ons are supposed to be tonally inferior. Go suck and egg. They rock! I like Gibson and PRS guitars, but the glues make 'em dead (remember the laminate necks, not just the already glued on tops, fingerboards, and multiple piece bodies?), yeah right.

Quit hearing with your imagination and thoughts and hear with your ears. If it sounds good, enjoy it. Quit finding reasons to be a snob about something. You might be missing out.

Bob

[335guy]

While I do not buy into the idea that the use of "glue" is detrimental to a guitar's tone, I do think a comparison can be accurately done. For example:

Take a wood bodied guitar, say a tele shape, constructed out of a single piece of ash or alder and loaded with whatever hardware one chooses. No glues used here. Then build three necks from the same piece of maple lumber. These necks will be identical in size and shape and use the same tuners and fret sizes. The necks would be attached with screws or bolts and all would be unfinished ( just for our tone test). There would be no truss rods either, as these necks would be built for tonal comparison only. Neck one would be a single maple neck with a maple board. Neck two would be built out of the same piece of maple but with a standard thickness rosewood finger board. Neck three would be also built from the same piece of maple and also use a rosewood board, except for this fingerboard, the rosewood ( also built from the same stock as guitar 2's board ) would be band sawn in half and glued back together so it equals the same thickness as the non laminated rosewood board. All the necks would be machine crafted using a CNC machine to be as close in shape as possible. No handshaping except for a final fine hand sanding to make them smooth. Then each neck would be bolted to the same body and tested in a sound chamber with sound analysis software. The same player would play the same piece of music using the same amp on the same settings. The results would also be recorded and played back to listeners for a blind sampling.

While this would be a somewhat time consuming experiment, it's about as close as one could get to actual data on any true differences between the three different construction methods. One could also use maple instead of rosewood to see the effects of gluing on a fingerboard and eliminate the tonal differences of rosewood vs maple.

Call me crazy but IMO, such an experiment could put this discussion to bed.

[walterw]

Call me crazy but IMO, such an experiment could put this discussion to bed.
yeah;

the player would report night-and-day differences in each guitar, while listeners to the recordings wouldn't be able to tell one from the other.

[vortexxxx]

The Re-Issues should not have split fretboards but I doubt Gibson cares.

[mullytron]

Who knows, if one of the laminates was cross-grained it might sound totally cool in a new exciting way.

[Frenster]

I do believe that hot hide glue dries harder and probably transfers sound better than yellow glue.

That said, my two best sounding electric guitars played acoustically are my tele style (two pieces of would and 4 screws) and my 335 (lots of laminations, lots of glue). Go figure.

[Catoogie]

IME, any time you laminate any wood to any other wood, the resonant peak shifts higher and the harmonics get deader. "The Sound Of Glue."

So by your estimation 335's sound dead.

[Catoogie]

I haven't purchased a new Gibson guitar since 2004.
Henry J. = PT Barnum.

My brand new Les Paul Deluxe is the greatest guitar ever built.

[Catoogie]

Laminated woods are for two things, make something cheaper or stronger. I not being a guitar expert can only speak from my experience playing various guitars, that and 25 years as a woodworker. From what I can tell the biggest tone killer is plywood tops on acoustic guitars. That is where you will hear the difference right away. But on electrics, it's all about playability and electronics.

That would depend on what tone you are looking for. I have a handful of cool little acoustics with ply tops and they are amazing recording guitars. They sit in the track and have a character not achievable with a high-end Martin, Guild Gibson etc..

[mullytron]

So by your estimation 335's sound dead.

No, but I think the set neck (glued) construction results in a stronger fundamental, as opposed to designs that help inspire more harmonics. Same thing with a rosewood fingerboard Strat neck as opposed to a one-piece maple.

Sorry if I insulted your 335.

[tiktok]

So by your estimation 335's sound dead.

Why would anyone expect anything else of a plywood-bodied guitar?

[BEACHBUM]

Being one that doesn't believe fret board wood effects tone as long as it looks good and does the job I'm OK with it in practice. However in principal the practice really puts me off. Gibson is full of crap concerning this entire issue. There is no downside in it for Gibson at all. They will simply write off the confiscated wood, use cheaper materials, and hold the same prices eventually raising them while covering their butts by saying it's all the fault of the big bad government. I'm not a fan of some of our governments practices either but in this case I'm convinced that Henry is happy as a peach taking advantage of the entire affair.

[MRW55]

Honest question here:

Does anyone know if these lam finger boards also extend to Gibson acoustics?

[Stringrazor]

Things must be changing daily at Gibson. A couple of weeks ago in my NGD SG thread, this link
http://www2.gibson.com/Products/Electric-Guitars/SG/Gibson-USA/SG-Standard/Specs.aspx
let to a page that listed the fretboard material as Katalox (which I verified by s/n with Gibson). Now it says "rosewood" again.

[aussiemeats]

+
G'Day

I just bought a Midtown Custom with a Richlite Fretboard.

(and to complicate matters more, I installed a Bigsby on it as well)

I'm sorry but I cant tell the difference in "FEEL" or "SOUND" between

Richlite and Ebony...I have had both.....

The guitar FEELS and SOUNDS GREAT....

IF the string is not touching the fretboard, can somebody tell me

WHY or WHAT affect the glued on FRET BOARD has on the total sound of the guitar?

I understand that the string vibration is being transferred from the FRET thru the neck, and the STOP Piece or

Tail Piece or Bigsby, thru the Body..and the Neck which is attached to it..

What effect does the slight portion of Fretboard, that the STRINGS DON'T touch, whether solid, laminate, or Man made,

have on the TOTAL sound signature of the guitar??

Doesn't the base portion of the neck which the fretboard is glued to, have more mass

and therefore more influence, on the vibration, or resonance of the tone?

Doesn't the Face portion of the body, have more vibrational impact, on the sound, even then the neck?

(It also has more MASS then the fretboard) Isn't all of the related to Physics and mass etc?

The fretboard is such a small amount of the total mass of ANY guitar...

So in the final analysis, How much Total influence does a fret board have no matter WHAT

it's made of, on ANY guitars sound signature?

This Guitar SOUNDS Great with the Burstbucker 1 & 2 pickups and unplugged ...as well...

Tell me what I'm missing here??

Here it is:

http://i1028.photobucket.com/albums/y343/aussiemeats/0319121858.jpg

Thank for your input

Cheers!

[texasdw]

Being one that doesn't believe fret board wood effects tone as long as it looks good and does the job I'm OK with it in practice. However in principal the practice really puts me off. Gibson is full of crap concerning this entire issue. There is no downside in it for Gibson at all. They will simply write off the confiscated wood, use cheaper materials, and hold the same prices eventually raising them while covering their butts by saying it's all the fault of the big bad government. I'm not a fan of some of our governments practices either but in this case I'm convinced that Henry is happy as a peach taking advantage of the entire affair.

I agree; I don't think the fretboard wood is going to make a difference in tone, sound or appearance when you're comparing laminated rosewood with one-piece rosewood. But let's think about this. I don't think anybody could tell the difference. So...why did Gibson tell us? Why'd they tell anybody? Lots of Gibson / Henry J hate here, but I think the fact they're telling us what they're doing (and are willing to verify fb construction before you buy one of their guitars) is a very positive statement about them. I know I'm on the outside on this.

[texasdw]

Aussiemeats...nice guitar. I like the Midtowns. Did you put a roller bridge on with that Bigsby? I can't tell in the picture.

[aussiemeats]

Aussiemeats...nice guitar. I like the Midtowns. Did you put a roller bridge on with that Bigsby? I can't tell in the picture.

Texasdw........

G'Day Again,

Sorry about the picture quality I used my camera phone....

Yes Sir, I did. Schaller Roller bridge..I believe it's the same one that Gibson

uses on the Midtown Standard. I just got done intonating it yesterday

did the install this week. I'm really pleased with it.

Thanks for the compliment. I LOVE this guitar...Richlite or non matching

maple face...It's STILL just a really nice instrument.

Here's another one with it's baby brother and Daddy



http://i1028.photobucket.com/albums/y343/aussiemeats/0319121853-1.jpg



Cheers Mate!

[Tuberattler]

So then a Les Paul must be the most dead sounding guitar around? Glued in neck, glued on top, glued on board...

Same goes for PRS. I suppose Fender too. Only the Strats or Teles with glued on rosewood boards though, right?

WOW, what is the point of playing any guitar, really? They all have glue. That's it! I'm selling everything and getting a saxophone!


You forgot the tone deadening glue that saxophone's have on their tone pads... you're done with anything musical because most stuff has glue used to hold things together... dang the whole world is coming to a stop.

[gnobuddy]

So by your estimation 335's sound dead.
Played acoustically, yes, they do (sound dead). Why do you suppose an unplugged 335 is so much less loud than its solid-top, hollow-body Gibson predecessor archtops?

This, by the way, was completely intentional. Guitars that are "live" acoustically also suffer badly from feedback problems as volume levels go up. Early solid-top, hollow body archtop electrics suffered badly from feedback as guitar amplifiers began to become more powerful. The solid Les Paul fixed that, but didn't have the warmth of tone of the older hollow archtops. The ES-335 was intended to be a compromise between those two - more dead than a full hollow-body, less dead than a Les Paul.

Since part of Gibson's goal with the ES-335 was to make it deader, using plywood for the top made complete sense - it was cheaper than solid wood, and the reduced "livliness" was actually desirable.

Incidentally, the mathematics of waves propagating in media has been well understood for a very long time - electromagnetic waves were extensively studied by the end of the late seventeenth century, after Lorentz came up with his electron theory and cleaned up Maxwells equations. Acoustic waves travelling through wood, glued to other wood, are subject to the same math that describes all waves: basically there will be some reflection, some absorption, and some transmission of sound at every glued interface (wood/glue join).

So there's no doubt that a glue joint will alter the vibrations in a guitar, or that soft glue (aliphatic) will affect the sound differently than hard glue (hide glue, etc). Those things are mathematical fact. However, the question of whether the change in vibration is audible or not - that is subjective, and open to the usual endless and fruitless debate.

It does seem clear, though, that a majority of musicians can hear the difference between a plywood top and a solid wood top in an acoustic guitar. Of course on an acoustic guitar the top is the part most responsible for the sound - the part doing most of the vibrating. That's where you'd expect it to be easiest to hear "the sound of glue".

Leaving guitar tops aside, can you hear the "sound" of a guitar neck on an electric guitar? I have personal experience that says the answer, in at least one case, was "yes!". In the 1980's I was given a cracked archtop acoustic guitar that had a distinctive slightly nasal or sad-sounding tone to it. I took it apart and built a solid-body guitar using the neck from that archtop. When my solid-body guitar was done, I was shocked to find out that I could still hear a little of that exact same nasal, sad-sounding coloration in its tone. Remember, the two guitars shared nothing except the neck - and yet I could hear that characteristic tone.

Much later I realised that in a solid-body the neck is actually the least stiff part (the body is much stiffer), and therefore the *neck* is the part most likely to vibrate. Those vibrations transfer to the body, shaking the pickup, altering its distance from the strings, and allowing the pickup to sense that neck vibration. That's how the sound of your electric guitars neck can come through the pickups.

Incidentally, by the same logic, the sound of a Fender Strat is probably significantly influenced by its pickguard - that flimsy piece of plastic is going to vibrate much more than the solid body does, especially on guitars with a big "swimming pool" rout, and the pickups are mounted to the pickguard...the sound of plastic, anyone?

Can you hear the sound of a laminated fretboard? I have no idea, not having any experience with them. It is likely the laminated fretboard is stiffer than the solid one, so it's likely the neck with the laminated fretboard is stiffer than the older necks with solid fretboards, and that in turn would alter the neck resonance frequencies. Whether the change is enough to be audible or not, I don't know.

Sound aside, I too would be more than a little miffed if I'd shelled out Gibson's exorbitant prices and was given in return a guitar glued together from little pieces of wood.

I have a feeling those carbon fibre Rainsong guitars might start to look a lot more attractive to a lot of people as the shortage of good wood continues to hammer the guitar industry in the years to come.

-Gnobuddy

[DarthElvis]

Glue makes your tone sound dead. Got it...


Pretty sure this guy means "Glue makes your tone sound dead. RIIIIGHT, Got it...:messedup"

as opposed to "Glue makes your tone sound dead. Got it?!:bitch"

Just noticed him being raked over the coals, when he probably shouldn't be. Sarcasm never translates well over teh interwebs.

[robertkoa]

The solid Granadillo wood on the Bonamassa Studio Sig looks and feels fine.

IMO they don't need Laminate Wood on a Fingerboard.

If they send a Laminate Wood Les Paul to a Guitar Playing Government Agent who was one of the people who confiscated the Rosewood- they will surrender and return all the wood to Gibson- OK maybe not but.........

There are so many great substitute woods for Fingerboards if you can't get Rosewood ( it's not like the stuff grows on trees- well at least not in New York State- where I grew up but in Florida where I live now - OK it does grow on Trees , but you have to make at least 1 to 4 phone calls to FIND any- difficult )- that it's silly, ridiculous and bad Marketing IMO to use Laminates.

Wouldn't you guys rather have a Les Paul with a Pau Ferro or Wenge or some other wood instead of a Laminate ?