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View Full Version : EVM 12L vs Eminence Delta Pro 12A


fraterlii
04-05-2012, 10:37 AM
I play baritone guitar. My string gauges are .13 to .64, and I play in standard B tuning with a drop A. I have an orange ppc412 4 x 12 and I don't care for the Celestion Vintage 30 speakers.

So the title says it all. What do you guys recommend?

I'm really considering 2 EVM 12L's and 2 Delta Pro 12A's in the same cabinet, as I like the sound of both from what I've heard, and I like that Delta Pro 12A's can go down to 52hz, which I think would be good for me. But does the sensitivity match up between the two speakers?

Let me know what you think.

Ed Rembold
04-06-2012, 08:54 AM
really like the DP-12A
buy two and try them, if you need a little more top end, add two EVM-12L. if you've got enough top, add two more DP-12A. you will not lack bottom with either speaker.

Ed R.
toneczar effects

qingcong
04-06-2012, 02:23 PM
I recorded the Delta Pro 12A, Deltalite, and EVM12L some time ago, and below is a screenshot of the relative amplitude of each speaker. First is DP, second DL, third EVM. I'm playing the same thing in each, and as you can see EVM is clearly loudest, followed by Delta Pro and finally Deltalite. EVM + DP12A is like combining godzilla and king kong.


http://i831.photobucket.com/albums/zz235/qingcong/screenshot-1.jpg

polaris26
04-08-2012, 04:17 PM
Here's a different tack if you might want to look at something other than the EV line - I have a 4x12 cabinet that was loaded with 4 Weber C1230-55's - 55Hz cones with Pre-Rola doping. These sound very relaxed and confident on the low end, something like the 12L but perhaps with a bit more personality. I found they were ok for bass guitar but needed a little brightening sometimes for guitar so I mix them w/ other speakers in the cab depending on what I am playing into the cab with. Maybe give the Webers a try? (Scumback also has a version of the 55Hz cone and I think so does Warehouse speakers but I have no experience with either of those versions.)

Dave

qingcong
04-08-2012, 07:51 PM
Puh-leez, don't even bring up those wimpy guitar speakers when we're talking about real woofers..:p

dspellman
04-08-2012, 09:36 PM
I play baritone guitar. My string gauges are .13 to .64, and I play in standard B tuning with a drop A. I have an orange ppc412 4 x 12 and I don't care for the Celestion Vintage 30 speakers.

So the title says it all. What do you guys recommend?

First, there's not really an EVM vs Delta Pro controversy. They're very close. Both will handle a potload of wattage and both will go low. Honestly, for what you're doing, an EVM won't give you much more of anything than a Delta except a bigger hole in the pocket book.

Second, you're not going to get what you want from a 4x12. While both speakers may go low, they aren't going to do it in that cabinet. I ended up building two 2x12s with ports (and tweeters, but that's just me) in order to take advantage of the Deltas:

http://i18.photobucket.com/albums/b149/dspellman/finished.jpghttp://i18.photobucket.com/albums/b149/dspellman/driversonbaffle.jpg

Third, if you want some more bottom end from an extended range (ER) guitar, you're going to want MOAH POWAH! 100W is going to continue to give you mud.

Okay, here are some better speaker choices:

Instead of replacing the speakers inside the 4x12, getting very little ooomph for your money, add a subwoofer, like the Vector SL (SL = Steve Lukather, some lameass guitar player who does some studio work now and then <G>) from ISP Technologies. The Vector SL puts a 15" subwoofer in a separate box and feeds the lows to a 600W SS amplifier that feeds the sub and then routes the 100W of tubey mids goodness from your amp into the 4x12 which sits on top of it. Very imposing. That's them under the 4x12s with that Carpenter guy from the Deftones:

https://unix.securenet-server.net/%7Eaceword1/images/stories/news/images/carpenter.jpghttp://static.musiciansfriend.com/derivates/18/001/260/048/DV016_Jpg_Large_483010_R.jpg

It'll cost you a bit more than four new speakers for your 4x12, but it's MUCH mas macho.

If you don't want to carry around another 95 lb cab and speaker, try the ISP Technologies Vector, which is a similar concept. Two 12" speakers in a separate enclosure in one side of the cabinet with a 15" subwoofer and a 400W SS amplifier on the other side. Same deal; the 100W of your head gets used for the mids and highs, the 400W gets the juicy bottom end.

http://greenplanetaudio.com/images/541isp%20vector%20active.jpg

Here's another option, right out of the '70's... This is an old 2x15 (Altec Lansing 418-8As) with a mids/high horn. 30"W x 48"H x 14"D ported cabinet. I handed this to a guy who played what you do and had a hard time getting it back. It will NOT fit in the back of your Honda Civic unless you roll down the windows.

http://i18.photobucket.com/albums/b149/dspellman/Picture1-17.png

And one more solution: Take a close look at some of the new full-range cabinets that are coming on the market. Most have a 15" LF driver, a 6" mids driver and a 1" tweeter. Some of them will easily handle 900W. These are ostensibly for bass/keyboards/drums/PA, and their ability to handle bass depends on the LF driver. Best at the moment are lightweight cabinets from fEARful and Barefaced Bass (yeah, I KNOW you've never heard of these). The fEARful is called the 15/6/1. Google it. Avatar has a heavier weight version of this cabinet called the TB 153, around $500. And Carvin has a version with a not-quite-as-good LF driver designed for PA use called the LS 1503. That sucker is an amazing deal at $259. About what it will cost you for one EVM. Trust me...

http://www.talkbass.com/wiki/images/thumb/d/d3/FEarful_15-6-1.jpg/450px-FEarful_15-6-1.jpghttp://farm6.static.flickr.com/5304/5614518650_9382b679fc.jpghttp://www.carvinguitars.com/images/ls/ls1503-speaker.jpg

qingcong
04-09-2012, 09:53 AM
One of the things to consider, do you really want your speaker system to respond all the way down to 40 or 50Hz?

A lot of 7 stringers still play normal 4x12s and it works because we're hearing harmonics, which trick our ears into thinking we're hearing something lower than it really is. The V30 sounds like ass when you try to crank bass freqs through it because it's a low excursion, cheap woofer that starts crapping out because it can't handle those low freqs.

12L and Delta Pros are higher excursion woofers with strong motor systems that should handle those bass freqs better. In a sealed 4x12 box, the system response will start falling off at around 100Hz, but again, does it really need to go that low? The harmonics give us the information we need to recreate the bass freqs and the system will remain "tight" sounding, as opposed to a midrange + sub system which maybe sounds cool in theory, but transient response may suffer and things start getting muddy.

I guess the thing to do is to try it with the 4x12 first and if it's not enough bass for you, add the subs, or switch to a ported cab.

dspellman
04-09-2012, 02:57 PM
One of the things to consider, do you really want your speaker system to respond all the way down to 40 or 50Hz?

A lot of 7 stringers still play normal 4x12s and it works because we're hearing harmonics, which trick our ears into thinking we're hearing something lower than it really is. The V30 sounds like ass when you try to crank bass freqs through it because it's a low excursion, cheap woofer that starts crapping out because it can't handle those low freqs.

12L and Delta Pros are higher excursion woofers with strong motor systems that should handle those bass freqs better. In a sealed 4x12 box, the system response will start falling off at around 100Hz, but again, does it really need to go that low? The harmonics give us the information we need to recreate the bass freqs and the system will remain "tight" sounding, as opposed to a midrange + sub system which maybe sounds cool in theory, but transient response may suffer and things start getting muddy.

I guess the thing to do is to try it with the 4x12 first and if it's not enough bass for you, add the subs, or switch to a ported cab.

Most of the above is accurate. But there are a couple of other considerations.

For starters, a standard sealed 4x12 won't produce much of anything below 100Hz (as you note), no matter WHAT's in it. So you'll be spending money for good speakers even though you know you'll not get the results you want.

Second, an A1 frequency is around 55Hz. Generally, if you can, you want at least *some* of the fundamental in the note, though it IS possible for your ear to identify the note without the fundamental (assuming that it's got enough of the harmonics above it to listen to). Since one of the traits of the Delta Pro that the OP liked was that it actually went down to 52Hz, I assume he wants that range available to him. But given that 100W and a 412 won't really give you even enough of the harmonics to suggest that note, I think that's mostly just interesting discussion at this point.

The 12L and Delta Pro are good speakers, but I've worked with the EV for 22 years now and the Delta for about 5, and if they don't have the proper cabinet to work with, they aren't going to do much for you that the Vintage30 won't. In my 2x12s, the Deltas will go down to 52Hz, but the cabs are properly sized and ported.

If you've got a choice between having your system able to reproduce a fundamental and a system that won't, which would you rather have?

Finally, a mid and sub system doesn't just sound good "in theory" -- it works perfectly in fact. Both the ISP Vector and the Vector SL have been designed *specifically* for extended range guitar playing (as in 7-, 8- and 9-string guitars and baritones). They're being used on tour right now by national acts. There's no loss of anything in "transient response" or otherwise. Fact is, having a 600W or 400W amplifier powering the sub within its own box pretty much guarantees outstanding damping. I've been listening to these things for several years here in LA, and I know that they work exactly as they're supposed to. No "theory" involved.