Pod HD500, still nasty crossover distortion after update

[Rena Rune]

The Plexi is actually particularly bad for it -

http://www.box.com/s/1f17246c80e1917d941f

All models are affected by this, but not equally. In some it's easier to dial it out by changing the Bias than others. This leads me to believe it's not a hardware issue, though it may be somehow influenced by it(and this is my second unit anyway).

You can hear it particularly badly when I pick the lower notes.

As awesome as the mid gain sounds are, especially now with the cab controls, I feel like giving up on the unit now, maybe going back to an M9(though that had some of it's own problems).

[Funky Monkey]

I hear it. I haven't had much time with it (Plexi or any amp sims in general) but when I practiced Wednesday, I was plugging into an Acoustic 30w combo, so I assumed the garble was just because the amp couldn't hadle it (it was also fuzzing out with a vocal mic plugged directly into it.) I'll try messing with it more tonight with my studio cans on. But right now, to your sample, I'm listening with iPod earbuds and I can definitely hear it. :(

[mwc2112]

I'm hearing this too, especially with particularly articulate pickups (like my WCR SRs in my Strat).

[nsbucky]

most of my line6 gear tends to make strange noises after a while.... all I have now is an m9 that I just use for occasional effects. Depending on song, switching it in/out a bunch introduces eventual audio artifacts. I even sent it back once to them to get fixed and they claimed it was fine, but it still acts up.

[Willowdale]

What do you expect for a $400 all in one type of budget unit?

[Rena Rune]

What do you expect for a $400 all in one type of budget unit?

This really isn't an excuse and I wish people would stop saying this. It's a bit useless being "all in one" if all the clean/low gain tones are ruled out. My Zoom G3 cost a fraction of the price and I have better luck getting low gain tones out of it.

[Gasp100]

Aren't there some extraneous noise parameter controls in the HD? (I'm serious). Like 50Hz vs. 60Hz hum or something? Maybe mess with those settings?
If not I would cut bait... I think you have been wrestling with this for some time.

[Pietro]

Huh... I'm not getting it so far with my Variax... That sounds a little like the noise some folks got when they had the input set up in the wacky (default) manner...

[Rena Rune]

I've tried all the different impedance settings, padding the input, etc. it's not regular clipping, it's more like crossover distortion. It's a bit less noticeable with my Jag(probably since it's less Bassy) than the HH guitar I tried it with there but it's still there.

[Lance Romance]

Johnny Ramone would just turn it up and rock your face off. So would a million other guitar players.

Start playing and stop nit picking.

[Lolasaurus]

This is a common issue?
Crossover distortion is a generic fault, and I imagined there would be a little bit now and then with the POD HDs, but I've never heard of any complaints about it before; nor have I heard such a bad case of it.

[chrisjw5]

Can you define crossover distortion? I think mine sounds 'off' too, but I don't understand what you mean.

I'm also not sure if my 'issue' is the HD500, as I just got my Aerodyne Strat upgraded with some Duncans and a Tom Anderson bridge. So what I'm hearing could be the new pickups or 'crossover distortion'.

[Rena Rune]

Johnny Ramone would just turn it up and rock your face off. So would a million other guitar players.

Start playing and stop nit picking.

Ladies and gentlemen, the world's worst consumer.

[Rena Rune]

Can you define crossover distortion? I think mine sounds 'off' too, but I don't understand what you mean.

I'm also not sure if my 'issue' is the HD500, as I just got my Aerodyne Strat upgraded with some Duncans and a Tom Anderson bridge. So what I'm hearing could be the new pickups or 'crossover distortion'.

Crossover distortion is, to put it very simply, distortion that occurs on the crossover point of a wave, so it's kind of "inside" the waveform, it's not caused by regular clipping. Generally tubes that are biased too cold can cause this. It has a very rattly kind of sound.

[Willowdale]

Problem is you're staying in a $40/night Motel. You will have to put up with some roaches and stained sheets!!

There is a Ritz Carlton in a much better part of town, but it's gonna cost ya!!

Either way you pay a price. Sounds like you're not happy with the price you're paying!

[DRS]

Rena

Once I figured out the issues with FX placement, I have no weird distortions. I remember you complained about this before with clean tones. I have great clean tones (now) and so do guys like Jim Soloway.

[Pietro]

Rena

Once I figured out the issues with FX placement, I have no weird distortions. I remember you complained about this before with clean tones. I have great clean tones (now) and so do guys like Jim Soloway.

Can you summarize these "issues"? For the benefit of the rest of us?

[Julia343]

Okay, I've been happy with the tones before the update. I haven't done the patch yet. Were you happier before the update or after? Sounds to me like the patch didn't help.

But then pretty much all I use is the Fender Deluxe model w/ screamer and reverb anyway.

[jrockbridge]

Pod HD500, still nasty crossover distortion after update

I recall this being an issue back when I owned my HD500. But, I have to admit, I never really noticed it. I mostly stayed with the BF Lux for clean stuff. Also, the guitars I use for clean typically have low output pups. In fact, I mostly favor single coils. Of course, I have no idea if any of that had any influence on the problem.

I assume you don't want to step into a higher price bracket. Perhaps, a G3 or G5 would be a good alternative for you.

[marshall2288]

you guys are talking Greek to me. I'm in love with my HD500.

[chrisjw5]

Crossover distortion is, to put it very simply, distortion that occurs on the crossover point of a wave, so it's kind of "inside" the waveform, it's not caused by regular clipping. Generally tubes that are biased too cold can cause this. It has a very rattly kind of sound.

Not helping, but thanks. "Rattly" doesn't help, I guess I'm not hearing COD.

[Guitar Vilain]

It's a relief to learn I'm not the only one hearing this, didn't know it was crossover distortion, just called it "digital distortion"... Yep it's a very ratly / fuzz-like distortion, not pleasant at all. I agree it's particularly bad with the new plexi model. Too bad, I had some nice expectations about that one. I don't get it, how can Line 6 screw up so hard? Not that it's a big loss to me anyway, my HD500 has been just a fancy MIDI footswitch since I've got my 11R and apparently will continue to do so.

[GuitarKidd]

How about a screen shot of the patch or upload it to customtone... I don't know have anything like that at all... granted, I haven't been able to update as I'm out of town and will be back tomorrow evening and will update.

[mmcm4]

I've heard some great HD-500 tones without any of this "bad" crossover distortion.


Here's one in particular (as an example of a good tone):
ex. http://soundcloud.com/johnandkris/plexi

[Rena Rune]

I dunno, I hear something a bit off with that too, but it depends how it's set up.

[Gasp100]

I dunno, I hear something a bit off with that too, but it depends how it's set up.

Have you ever heard a real Plexi? They can sound really ratty in some instances. I often wrestle with the Plexi tones on most modelers (including the AxeFX II)

[Just A Box]

Have you ever heard a real Plexi? They can sound really ratty in some instances. I often wrestle with the Plexi tones on most modelers (including the AxeFX II)

I'm sure they didn't model the "ratty-ness" of a Plexi. I was playing just a few minutes ago and heard it clear as day. Plexi model, Ibanez S7420 with CL/LF pickups. Without any OD and with, it was there. The sound, to me, can be best described as the sound of something loose and vibrating in the amp, especially right after you strike a chord and the notes are ringing out. Until recently, I though it was a problem with my guitars.

I was getting ready to sell my Carvin V3, GT-8 and my Avatar 2x12 and get a DT25 combo and then pursue a Variax. I may have to rethink the dream rig scenario if I start hearing what I can now clealy identify as an issue in my other non-high-gain patches.

[marshall2288]

I would like to hear some clips or have you guys upload your tones in CustomToneZone. I've never had a problem with any of this and I would like to hear/ play some patches with this problem.

Who knows, maybe I inadvertently found a secret trick or something??

[DRS]

Can you summarize these "issues"? For the benefit of the rest of us?
Maybe it's only an "issue"for me. I find if you put some FX downstream of the mixer, you get unwanted distortion. When I first got mine, I never paid much attention as to where I put the FX. I assumed it's digital so what does it matter. For instance, I would put a tape echo after the mixer and it always sounded bad. Now I put everything before the mixer.

[Pietro]

I'd like to try some of these tones that are causing problems, too.

If you're a TGP member, you can actually email them to other members without posting them on customtone...

Seriously, it'd help me learn, and who knows... it might help you out!

[marshall2288]

Maybe it's only an "issue"for me. I find if you put some FX downstream of the mixer, you get unwanted distortion. When I first got mine, I never paid much attention as to where I put the FX. I assumed it's digital so what does it matter. For instance, I would put a tape echo after the mixer and it always sounded bad. Now I out everything before the mixer.

FX placement is key IMO. This threw me for a big loop when I first my POD. I was getting ridiculous tones and it frustrated me alot. Then I started to think outside the box and i started rearranging everything in the signal chain.

FWIW the only thing I put behind the mixer is reverb. Delay either goes in front of the amp or in its FX loop.

[Pietro]

I think a part of it might be that you want to set your output level high enough in the mixer so that you're not jamming your levels in the amp... that I can put FX anywhere in the chain I want without any real "noise" penalty.

[Rena Rune]

It's not clipping though. Clipping isn't the only kind of distortion.

I have noticed that when I turn up the master louder on the unit it does seem to lessen but then it will just clip. That could just be my ears though.

[Lolasaurus]

It's not clipping though. Clipping isn't the only kind of distortion.

I have noticed that when I turn up the master louder on the unit it does seem to lessen but then it will just clip. That could just be my ears though.

which master? the amp or the final unit master volume?
Cause I know L6 says the latter should be as loud as possible, and that you should turn down the trim/volume of what ever the pod is plugged into instead to reduce noise; essentially the opposite of clipping.
While cranking the former would clip it.

[Pietro]

It's not clipping though. Clipping isn't the only kind of distortion.

I have noticed that when I turn up the master louder on the unit it does seem to lessen but then it will just clip. That could just be my ears though.

I would LOVE to look at one of your patches that's doing this, if you'd be willing...

[Just A Box]

I would LOVE to look at one of your patches that's doing this, if you'd be willing...

I'll post my Patch later tonight. I just finished dinner with the wife and am waiting for the movie to start (this is as close to "checked in" as I'm ever going to get). It's totally happening on the Plexi and has been happening on other patches. I will put my patch up later tonight along with any other settings. I will also try it stripped down of anything but the amp itself.

Honestly, I had chalked it up to the limitations of modelers, but the more people draw attention to it, the more I search for it in my own patches, and the more I hear it. At this moment it's only low and mid gain. My metal patches are loaded, so it's not apparent to me at this time.

Check in later. The Hunger Games is about to start. We'll see if this is a waste of time or not.

[GuitarKidd]

Eh... Hunger Games... disappointed in the film. My wife and daughter both read the books and were disappointed. Back on topic... Both Rena and JAB, please post your patches...

[MKB]

Look, the HD-500 is a modeler. If a model has true crossover distortion, they intended it to be there. It's part of the tone of some amps. Personally I hate it and can tune it out of my tube amps, unfortunately this is not possible with a modeler.

[tgp100]

Yes the crossover distortion is very obvious in some HD amp models.
Particularly at lower bias settings.
My Fender Prosonic amp that was bias very cold did the same thing.
It would be much better if line 6 removed that flaw when they modeled the amps or at least gave the users the option to do it.
Still, the new Plexi sounds great!
:)

[Rena Rune]

Look, the HD-500 is a modeler. If a model has true crossover distortion, they intended it to be there. It's part of the tone of some amps. Personally I hate it and can tune it out of my tube amps, unfortunately this is not possible with a modeler.

But people have complained. There's no reason for it to be there. Also it's pretty constant, while some have it worse than others I refuse to believe it could be this bad on ALL the tube amps.

[Rena Rune]

Eh... Hunger Games... disappointed in the film. My wife and daughter both read the books and were disappointed. Back on topic... Both Rena and JAB, please post your patches...

It's not a problem with the patches. It's any given model at breakup/low gain. Especially the new Plexi.

[Just A Box]

Well, here's the patch, my settings, and hopefully some simple sound samples to show off what I think some of us are hearing.

Here's the patch:
http://line6.com/customtone/tone/218399/

Here's the settings:
https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-c45nkFUeM6o/T4D9wwxEn7I/AAAAAAAACBw/VEcityTPgvc/s704/Main.jpg

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-6Z8-slCpqX4/T4D9wgWc0BI/AAAAAAAACBs/B7E97Ng_nVE/s659/Amp.jpg

https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-R6W0Cl7j6bQ/T4D9wu3fybI/AAAAAAAACBk/w3_jmRZhuDM/s327/Mixer.jpg

Here's some simple power chords with the (hopefully evident) crossover distortion present right after the chords are struck, as they ring out.

Bare Bones (amp only) Patch Clip:
http://soundcloud.com/just-a-box/plexi-bare-bones-crossover

Full Patch Clip:
http://soundcloud.com/just-a-box/plexi-bare-bones-crossover-1

[Just A Box]

Also, I tried lowering the preamp volume, lowering the master volume, relocating the amp itself, losing all effects, pad off, pad on (pad was on with my guitar, (an Ibanez S7420 with DiMarzio Crunch Lab and Liquifire pickups). Seemingly no way I can dial it out at this time. It's also equally present in the preamp model.

[Rena Rune]

Yes, normally crossover distortion should be coming from the poweramp, so something is wrong.

It's not a little thing, and it's not something I can get over because it ruins most of the clean tones entirely. For mid gain tones, great. But I can't use any low gain tones at all.

[Rena Rune]

It would be kind of cool if there was actually a seperate control to increase/decrease crossover distortion as if you really cranked it you might be able to get a pretty cool effect for nasty noisey distortions.

But that rattly sound is just awful.

[Will Chen]

Well, here's the patch, my settings, and hopefully some simple sound samples to show off what I think some of us are hearing.

Here's the patch:
http://line6.com/customtone/tone/218399/

Here's the settings:
https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-c45nkFUeM6o/T4D9wwxEn7I/AAAAAAAACBw/VEcityTPgvc/s704/Main.jpg

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-6Z8-slCpqX4/T4D9wgWc0BI/AAAAAAAACBs/B7E97Ng_nVE/s659/Amp.jpg

https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-R6W0Cl7j6bQ/T4D9wu3fybI/AAAAAAAACBk/w3_jmRZhuDM/s327/Mixer.jpg

Here's some simple power chords with the (hopefully evident) crossover distortion present right after the chords are struck, as they ring out.

Bare Bones (amp only) Patch Clip:
http://soundcloud.com/just-a-box/plexi-bare-bones-crossover

Full Patch Clip:
http://soundcloud.com/just-a-box/plexi-bare-bones-crossover-1

Didn't listen to the clip, but I'd bet you're overdriving the delay post mixer for sure with the amp master at full and boosting the mixer. Unlike most other modeling devices, you can overdrive the virtual input of many of the effects. in the HD500. Gain staging int the HD500 is absolutely critical.

[SquashPile]

I don't see how you could not be clipping on the Plexi with Master cranked, drive @ 65, CH Vol @100 and Mix + 7.5db. Do you monitor your input and gain in a DAW or any SW mixer?
I'll try the patch asap.

[chrisjw5]

Well, here's the patch, my settings, and hopefully some simple sound samples to show off what I think some of us are hearing.

Here's the patch:
http://line6.com/customtone/tone/218399/

Here's the settings:
https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-c45nkFUeM6o/T4D9wwxEn7I/AAAAAAAACBw/VEcityTPgvc/s704/Main.jpg

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-6Z8-slCpqX4/T4D9wgWc0BI/AAAAAAAACBs/B7E97Ng_nVE/s659/Amp.jpg

https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-R6W0Cl7j6bQ/T4D9wu3fybI/AAAAAAAACBk/w3_jmRZhuDM/s327/Mixer.jpg


Why are you running everything so hot? Master at full, amp volume at full and 7.5 dB on the mixer.....

Turn the amp volume down to 60-70 and drop the mixer back to 0. I only use the mixer to level the quieter sims so everything is at the same volume for changing patches. Same with amp volume... roll back the Plexi. There's no need for either the mixer or the amp volume to be that high.

[SquashPile]

Quick G chord strum with Strat neck pickup tube drive off.

Fader @ 0 - Firestudio Universal Control - That is +6db at least. Pull that mixer down to 0. Have you tried centering this patch in the mixer?

Alabama in August

http://i.imgur.com/DwcZh.jpg

[James Freeman]

Please read here about everything you need to know about the HD500 gain staging:
http://foobazaar.com/podhd/toneGuide/index.html

By the way that it looks you are Clipping the hell out of the Ping Polng Delay with channel set to 100%.
Channel Volume does NOTHING in terms of modeling and real amp.
Its only a digital volume control after the completely finished modeled amp (after the Poweramp and Cab simulation).
Use it to compensate the volume if it drops too much when tweaking the Tone Stack, Gain or DEP Master settings.

Basically with everything flat (50) this is the starting point in terms of volume,
if you crank the DEP Master and the volume changes too much lower the channel volume to compensate.
Or other way around.

You also clip the Analog Delay with the Mixer. And the Spring Reverb.

Please try to keep balanced/equal volume proportion when turning on effects or tweaking the amp.

Hope it helps.

:beer

[bsuite]

Problem is you're staying in a $40/night Motel. You will have to put up with some roaches and stained sheets!!

There is a Ritz Carlton in a much better part of town, but it's gonna cost ya!!

Either way you pay a price. Sounds like you're not happy with the price you're paying!

Well played, Naomi price.
http://i44.tinypic.com/w7kldw.jpg

[Just A Box]

Also, I tried lowering the preamp volume, lowering the master volume, relocating the amp itself, losing all effects, pad off, pad on (pad was on with my guitar, (an Ibanez S7420 with DiMarzio Crunch Lab and Liquifire pickups). Seemingly no way I can dial it out at this time. It's also equally present in the preamp model.

Well, this will be the first time I've quoted myself.

I have to assume that everybody who is concerned with my levels read this as well. The only thing I hadn't considered was that my output on the HD500 via the knob on the far right of the unit is usually at 11:00. I could raise the overall output and bring the mixer level down. Other than that, I've gone as far as amp-only patches to reduce the unpleasantries that I'm hearing with zero effect.

Looking at it is fine, and the comments are helpful, but has anyone actually tried tweaking the patch for themselves?

[lspaulsp]

Kick on that Tube Driver and let's see what BLOWS!
I like the sound of my 11R with everything cranked to h@ll but it distorts in a bad way too.
Pull everything out, back everything down and start again, Skippy. One thing at a time till you find the problem and it's probably going to be GAIN. It's not your friend.
I read, I listened, I looked, and you're WAY too hot. Now read the foobazaar tone guide, it's a great piece of work.

You asked, they responded, and you attacked. I thought they were being pretty nice with their advice. Loose the ego, they're trying to help. Next time put a disclaimer at the end of yer post. "Anyone replying to this post in a nice way may be told to go to h@ll."

Love, this Easter! Chill out, eat an egg!

[Just A Box]

Quick G chord strum with Strat neck pickup tube drive off.

Fader @ 0 - Firestudio Universal Control - That is +6db at least. Pull that mixer down to 0. Have you tried centering this patch in the mixer?

Alabama in August

http://i.imgur.com/DwcZh.jpg

The panning is because it sounds better with the 20ms delay. Take it out, and it sounds alot less full.

[derek_32999]

Well, this will be the first time I've quoted myself.

I have to assume that everybody who is concerned with my levels read this as well. The only thing I hadn't considered was that my output on the HD500 via the knob on the far right of the unit is usually at 11:00. I could raise the overall output and bring the mixer level down. Other than that, I've gone as far as amp-only patches to reduce the unpleasantries that I'm hearing with zero effect.

Looking at it is fine, and the comments are helpful, but has anyone actually tried tweaking the patch for themselves?

Most of us don't even have to plug the patch in to know what is the prob, having toyed with the unit for hours and hours (lol)). You are clipping your post mixer effects. Turn up the PODs VOLUME knob on the unit to the far right and turn the mixer down. I always keep the vol knob at about 4 oclock so I have plenty of volume from the unit and can still turn up a tad if needed. IME, the reverb sounds kinda crappy if you hit the front end too hard. Makes it all splashy and nasty. I will check her out tomorrow when I have time to play ;)

[derek_32999]

The panning is because it sounds better with the 20ms delay. Take it out, and it sounds alot less full.

You can leave the delay in and still pan to center. IME, panning to center makes it sound fuller, too.

[Just A Box]

Kick on that Tube Driver and let's see what BLOWS!
I like the sound of my 11R with everything cranked to h@ll but it distorts in a bad way too.
Pull everything out, back everything down and start again, Skippy. One thing at a time till you find the problem and it's probably going to be GAIN. It's not your friend.
I read, I listened, I looked, and you're WAY too hot. Now read the foobazaar tone guide, it's a great piece of work.

You asked, they responded, and you attacked. I thought they were being pretty nice with their advice. Loose the ego, they're trying to help. Next time put a disclaimer at the end of yer post. "Anyone replying to this post in a nice way may be told to go to h@ll."

Love, this Easter! Chill out, eat an egg!

Dude, honestly, your assessment of my "ego" is, IMO, way off base. There is no ego, attitude or pissy intent, I assure you.

I simply stated that with several comments on the levels, it seemed that they may have overlooked the post immediately following where I went amp (or even preamp) only, no effects, and still had the issue. And, while I sincerely appreciate assistance from those who are potentially more "in the know" than I (in the form of comment, analysis, or even the occasionally well deserved dope slap), I had no intent of conveying any attitude or ingratitude for good feedback. On the contrary, I will be lowering my mixer levels, and adjusting the overall output of the HD later today and see how it goes, thanks to the advice of others.

If anyone has an HD500 and wants to tweak the patch & see if they can eliminate the issue, feel free. My biggest reason for signing up for SoundCloud for the first time yesterday, recording and uploading clips, taking the screen shots, and posting the patch was to help myself, the OP, and others isolate and perhaps eliminate this issue. I'm not even the OP, but I think I'm going the extra mile here in trying to weed this problem out.

[Rena Rune]

It's nothing to do with his levels. It's not an issue of clipping in the first place and it should be obvious. The POD does have issues with some things clipping too easily though.

[stratotastic]

:facepalm

After all the dramatic buildup, then finally hearing the clips, you're complaining about that?!

Sorry, I just don't see much there to complain about. My TUBE AMPS often make peculiar sounds...when strumming chords IN ISOLATION with a background quiet enough to hear a pin drop! I guess if all you do is slowly strum chords with nothing else going on around it and specifically listen for strange artifacts, maybe you have a reason to get annoyed, but put that into a mix of actual music and it will sound completely fine. Why don't you post some clips playing within real ensemble music? Play it with your band or something and post it up. The cymbals will swallow up any top end stuff you may be "hearing."

The guy with the Johnny Ramone comment earlier had it right.

[chrisjw5]

And happy Resurrection Day to you all! (My God is no bunny)
Read the Forum rules.

I simply stated that with several comments on the levels, it seemed that they may have overlooked the post immediately following where I went amp (or even preamp) only, no effects, and still had the issue.
I didn't overlook anything. I DID look at the screen grabs you posted and commented on them. I don't need to program that patch in - which is, I'm guessing, what you wanted us to do, in posting THOSE shots - to tell you where to start in diagnosing your problems.

And your first problem, according to your own screen grabs, is:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/1/1e/Motorhead_Everything_Louder.jpg

If you wanted us to consider lower volume and mixer settings, perhaps those are the screen grabs you should have posted instead of the ones you did.


It's nothing to do with his levels. It's not an issue of clipping in the first place and it should be obvious. The POD does have issues with some things clipping too easily though.

Are we looking at the same screenshots? you can't claim that clipping is the first problem that patch has. You can't. I'm not saying you're off base with your clipping assertions, though I don't hear it. But you can't go straight to clipping based on those settings.

[Rena Rune]

:facepalm

After all the dramatic buildup, then finally hearing the clips, you're complaining about that?!

Sorry, I just don't see much there to complain about. My TUBE AMPS often make peculiar sounds...when strumming chords IN ISOLATION with a background quiet enough to hear a pin drop! I guess if all you do is slowly strum chords with nothing else going on around it and specifically listen for strange artifacts, maybe you have a reason to get annoyed, but put that into a mix of actual music and it will sound completely fine. Why don't you post some clips playing within real ensemble music? Play it with your band or something and post it up. The cymbals will swallow up any top end stuff you may be "hearing."

The guy with the Johnny Ramone comment earlier had it right.

It's extremely noticeable to me. You can't get a proper clean tone out of it at a decent volume because of it. I don't see how his is any small thing. Crossover distortion also isn't "top end stuff", you generally can't filter it out meaning you can't drown it out in a mix. Yes, it's less noticeable in a mix, as is the kind of amp and guitar you're using, and any number of settings you may have tweaked. It's still there.

If everyone here was just playing no-fi punk rock they'd have bought a random Solid State amp and been done with it. The Pod HD is still a fairly large investment, you can get many decent tube amps and guitars for the same price.

[gtr37]

I would be it is in your settings .

Spring reverb will create that metallic ringing sound plus you have delays ,Compressor ,all volume pinned as well as mixer go back and bring down all levels Turn OFF all the fx until you get the tone you want.

Bring them back in one by one ,change the spring to a room verb ,Cut the compressor .Try different guitars my guess is if you start dry amp you will figure out where the noise is coming from.

Good Luck

[Jim Soloway]

It's extremely noticeable to me. You can't get a proper clean tone out of it at a decent volume because of it. I don't see how his is any small thing. Crossover distortion also isn't "top end stuff", you generally can't filter it out meaning you can't drown it out in a mix. Yes, it's less noticeable in a mix, as is the kind of amp and guitar you're using, and any number of settings you may have tweaked. It's still there.

If everyone here was just playing no-fi punk rock they'd have bought a random Solid State amp and been done with it. The Pod HD is still a fairly large investment, you can get many decent tube amps and guitars for the same price.

Rena, some of us are actually very happy with the clean tones we get from these units but you seem to have been unhappy with it from the start and none of the upgrades seem to have made it work any better for you. Maybe it's just not the right rig for you. Not all gear is going to work for all people so maybe you'd be better off selling it and trying something else.

[chrisjw5]

It's extremely noticeable to me. You can't get a proper clean tone out of it at a decent volume because of it. I don't see how his is any small thing. Crossover distortion also isn't "top end stuff", you generally can't filter it out meaning you can't drown it out in a mix. Yes, it's less noticeable in a mix, as is the kind of amp and guitar you're using, and any number of settings you may have tweaked. It's still there.

If everyone here was just playing no-fi punk rock they'd have bought a random Solid State amp and been done with it. The Pod HD is still a fairly large investment, you can get many decent tube amps and guitars for the same price.

Post your patch. Not your sound clip, but your patch on Custom Tone, or here. Or do screenshots.

People want to help, but as Just A Box has shown, posting the actual patch might just lead to actual results. Or at least it'll let us try to hear what you're hearing and replicate it in our environments.

[GuitarKidd]

Ok.. I recorded a few clips. One with the stock patch minus the overdrive being on...

One thing that I did have to do was lower the recording level in the HD in Ableton using the HD's Hardware settings. At first it was clipping and WAY to loud. Once I adjusted that, I was getting somewhere even with the stock patch.

These were recorded in haste and not all that great. I will say I really like how this amp responds to picking dynamics... woot woot. This is played using my PRS SE245 stock pickups and all.

http://soundcloud.com/guitarkidd/jab-clip-a

This one is with the Mixer Centered, and the levels at 0. Also some minor adjustments to the levels of the amp. Nothing major.

http://soundcloud.com/guitarkidd/jab-clip-b

Now, I am no tube amp guru.. in fact have never owned one before. So I couldn't tell you if I was hearing crossover distortion or an amp that had a screaming cat in it... I have used Modelers since I started playing almost 9 years ago.

I am not sure why the stock patch is set so hot. I have never had to push the mixer like that, EVER.. only slight increases to bring up clean patches.

[lspaulsp]

Dude, honestly, your assessment of my "ego" is, IMO, way off base. There is no ego, attitude or pissy intent, I assure you.

I simply stated that with several comments on the levels, it seemed that they may have overlooked the post immediately following where I went amp (or even preamp) only, no effects, and still had the issue. And, while I sincerely appreciate assistance from those who are potentially more "in the know" than I (in the form of comment, analysis, or even the occasionally well deserved dope slap), I had no intent of conveying any attitude or ingratitude for good feedback. On the contrary, I will be lowering my mixer levels, and adjusting the overall output of the HD later today and see how it goes, thanks to the advice of others.

If anyone has an HD500 and wants to tweak the patch & see if they can eliminate the issue, feel free. My biggest reason for signing up for SoundCloud for the first time yesterday, recording and uploading clips, taking the screen shots, and posting the patch was to help myself, the OP, and others isolate and perhaps eliminate this issue. I'm not even the OP, but I think I'm going the extra mile here in trying to weed this problem out.

Then, HAPPY EASTER

[SquashPile]

Off topic I guess, but check some of these out.

Hjle_eoLgWo

[Pietro]

Well, this will be the first time I've quoted myself....Looking at it is fine, and the comments are helpful, but has anyone actually tried tweaking the patch for themselves?

I will be evaluating this patch when I get time, probably tomorrow (family day today).

I'll let you know what I find out, if this discussion is still current then...

[Dr Git]

I thought of your recent clean tones... I thought they were impressive...i think for the money the HD500 rocks



Rena, some of us are actually very happy with the clean tones we get from these units but you seem to have been unhappy with it from the start and none of the upgrades seem to have made it work any better for you. Maybe it's just not the right rig for you. Not all gear is going to work for all people so maybe you'd be better off selling it and trying something else.

[rufedges]

FX placement is key IMO. Delay either goes in front of the amp or in its FX loop.

+10

I have the HD300, it doesn't give you the opportunities to screw up effect placement like the HD500 would, but my delay goes before the amplifier as well.....correct me if I'm wrong, but EJ does the same thing with his echoplex; that way it doesn't pick up any fuzz or fizz from the amp / preamp distortion. I only use a compressor and amp/pre amp gain, no screamer, tube drive,...........works for more of a Lincoln Brewster, EVH, Journey type Marshall lead tone.

Try the delay before the preamp; also, try lowering your bias x to below 20% or pretty much off. Also, I pretty much use the SM57 on and off axis,…the 421 Dynamic microphone can get a bit raspy and tinny. I don’t have the 500, only a 300, but that is my 2 cents.

[rufedges]

Why are you running everything so hot? Master at full, amp volume at full and 7.5 dB on the mixer.....

Turn the amp volume down to 60-70 and drop the mixer back to 0. I only use the mixer to level the quieter sims so everything is at the same volume for changing patches. Same with amp volume... roll back the Plexi. There's no need for either the mixer or the amp volume to be that high.

I agree, noticed that too.

[CharlieFoxtrot]

Please read here about everything you need to know about the HD500 gain staging:
http://foobazaar.com/podhd/toneGuide/index.html

By the way that it looks you are Clipping the hell out of the Ping Polng Delay with channel set to 100%.
Channel Volume does NOTHING in terms of modeling and real amp.
Its only a digital volume control after the completely finished modeled amp (after the Poweramp and Cab simulation).
Use it to compensate the volume if it drops too much when tweaking the Tone Stack, Gain or DEP Master settings.

Basically with everything flat (50) this is the starting point in terms of volume,
if you crank the DEP Master and the volume changes too much lower the channel volume to compensate.
Or other way around.

You also clip the Analog Delay with the Mixer. And the Spring Reverb.

Please try to keep balanced/equal volume proportion when turning on effects or tweaking the amp.

Hope it helps.

:beer
I just wanted to chime in and let everybody know that this thread has been extremely helpful to me. I have previously looked over the link posted above about gain staging but I did not dig deep enough. After looking over the information in the link and reading this thread I have managed to get near 100% of crossover distortion and or low end rumble noise out of my patches.

The main key for me has been to have the mixer last in the signal chain and moving everything to center in the mixer and then muting Path B. Most of my patches had the mixer set at 0 dB so I could compensate for the volume drop by raising the volume level on Path A to 3.0 or 4.0 db.

I don't know if I was having the crossover distortion problem talked about in this thread or if it was clipping somewhere in the signal path, but my issues are all but resolved at this point. I know what I did may not work for everyone, but I seldom if ever use a dual path patch and I not using a variax guitar so problem solved for me.

Thanks for all of the valuable information in this thread and thanks to MeAmBobboo for putting up an excellent online guide!

[Pietro]

Well, here's the patch, my settings, and hopefully some simple sound samples to show off what I think some of us are hearing.

Here's the patch:
http://line6.com/customtone/tone/218399/

Your whole patch was unbelievably too loud for my system. Wonder how much of your issue was just that.

the delay and reverb after the mixer was especially not a great idea with a too loud patch in my experience, and btw, I'd put the noise gate after the amp if it were me. works better.

Sounded like a normal tube amp to me...

Rena, I'd still like to see your patch.

[Pietro]

Please read here about everything you need to know about the HD500 gain staging:
http://foobazaar.com/podhd/toneGuide/index.html

I LOVE that this guy has gone to this trouble...

I need a one or two page version of his explanation of what he's found crucial in gain staging without all the extraneous stuff about pickups, guitar setup, etc... seriously... this document is SO long I can't use it... I'd rather play than read...

[GuitarKidd]

I LOVE that this guy has gone to this trouble...

I need a one or two page version of his explanation of what he's found crucial in gain staging without all the extraneous stuff about pickups, guitar setup, etc... seriously... this document is SO long I can't use it... I'd rather play than read...

Agreed... I tried..but too much. Keep it to the HD and setting up patches and what not. I nice cliff notes versions or something

[meambobbo]

hey guys - i'm sorry my guide is so long. i just wanted to be comprehensive. i definitely don't recommend trying to read it front to back.

where you should start if you want quick fixes is the cheat sheet or troubleshooting sections. cheat sheet is brief tips and troubleshooting is mostly links to other sections as well as possibly diagnoses of what could be going wrong. you can also read through the contents and just pick a topic and start right there - most of the sections are more-or-less independent.

i have 2 independent sections in the setting it up page dealing with this issue - one is about clipping inside the Pod and one is about gain staging.

the main things to keep in mind are the channel volume (volume knob that changes the volume on the amp model) is not modeling any real analog amplifier, nor are the mixer channel level controls. Also the FX loop send/receive volume settings and SPDIF outputs are not modeling an analog amp. This means that volume boost/cuts are done digitally. So long as you don't boost the signal so high as to exceed the Pod's internal digital resolution, you will not get clipping. Likewise, it's not bad to set it far lower than clipping, since this is all just math on floating point numbers, where you have no loss of precision from really low to really high. so it's better to keep them conservative than to try to squeeze volume from them.

Many other effects do in fact model analog amplifiers, the most obvious being the Amp Drive and Master DEP controls. However these have more impact on tone than volume. I would not use these to try to get the right volume for your patch.

I often recommend using the mixer or a Studio EQ's gain control to obtain a "clean boost" in your signal chain. I think this is a purely digital volume change, not a model of an analog amplifier, but I can't verify it without Line 6 chiming in. If it is analog modeling, it seems to have infinite headroom (you hit digital signal resolution clipping far beforehand) and does not seem to introduce any noise to the chain. I use it like a digital volume leveler.

Another point I can't emphasize enough is that the Parametric EQ (maybe other effects too) are MODELING limited headroom. So even if you signal strength isn't clipping the Pod's digital resolution, the effect may demonstrate nasty digital sounding clipping on its input. Since you likely place these after your amp, I don't like using the amp/channel volume knob to set patch volume, since it may cause effect clipping.

If you are outputting digitally, you shouldn't need to worry much. As long as you're not boosting the USB output level in the driver control panel or the SPDIF level in the Pod system menu, you will doubtfully be clipping your audio interface. There's no reason to push it up to clipping here. You can send a weak signal and boost it digitally in your interface without any loss of precision or lower signal-to-noise ratio.

If you are outputting to analog output, all analog circuitry has a noise floor, so the weaker the analog signal in relation to this floor, the lower your signal-to-noise ratio will be. So you want your digital signal to be as loud as possible without digital clipping before hitting the output D/A converter.

As mentioned above, I find the best way to set up a single amp tone to avoid any internal signal clipping but maximizing the patch final volume is to put all my effects in one channel and use the mixer as the last piece of the chain to boost the volume to near clipping. keep amp/channel volume conservative to avoid clipping any effects behind it.

if you for some reason can't put the mixer last, try to put a Studio EQ last and boosting gain the same way. if you can't fit the Studio EQ, just be careful about gain staging any Parametric EQ's - place them where they are assured to get the weakest signal level. That's usually right after the amp block, and place any EQ's that cut first and those that boost last.

Once you set up your patches using these guidelines, then try to level them. Find the one that is the softest and can't be boosted any more and use that as your baseline. If you start with your loudest or a medium level patch, you may find your softer patches can't be boosted to that level and then you have to start over.

i know these instructions are a pain in the ass to follow. i'm not endorsing some of line 6's design choices, nor am i going to make any argument as to why leaving out a clipping meter was a good idea. but if you want to get the most out of this unit, you MUST follow them. You'll be far happier doing so, trust me. after a few patches, it becomes second nature.

i wish i could condense the guide or make it know in advance what you would like to get out of it. as far as i know, i've already done that as best i can but am definitely open to taking suggestions as to making it more accessible.

[secretsoundz]

Yikes, reading all of this makes me glad that I stay far, far away from modeling gear and stick to the real deal...

:hide

[Jim Soloway]

Yikes, reading all of this makes me glad that I stay far, far away from modeling gear and stick to the real deal...

:hide

Just out of curiosity then, what are you doing here?

[RedTiger]

Yikes, reading all of this makes me glad that I stay far, far away from modeling gear and stick to the real deal...

:hide

Welcome do the Digital and Modeling Gear forum! Enjoy your stay!

I'd rather tweak settings on a computer interface than do any of the stuff you have to do on the "real deal" all day, any day of the week, no question. Grats if working on tube amps is a skill set you have. It's not one I have the time or desire to develop.

IMHO, I think it's pretty crazy that products like tube amps are still sold that require the end user to either find someone with a niche skill to service them or actually partially disassemble the thing and poke around in them at their own risk. I'm not being snarky, I really have a hard time wrapping my head around that one. Seems kinda presumptuous in this day and age.

[RedTiger]

This is an informative thread. I had no idea that the amp settings could have so much of an impact on the effects it is run through. As in, I didn't know the HD500 modeled that. :eeks

[Rena Rune]

Post your patch. Not your sound clip, but your patch on Custom Tone, or here. Or do screenshots.

People want to help, but as Just A Box has shown, posting the actual patch might just lead to actual results. Or at least it'll let us try to hear what you're hearing and replicate it in our environments.

But it's *not* the patch. It's the amp. Any way I use it, in any given patch, it's the same result.

[secretsoundz]

Just out of curiosity then, what are you doing here?


Reading up on different gear for curiosity sake...just because I'm not personally into digital modeling gear doesn't mean I'm not interested in learning more about it.


Welcome do the Digital and Modeling Gear forum! Enjoy your stay!

I'd rather tweak settings on a computer interface than do any of the stuff you have to do on the "real deal" all day, any day of the week, no question. Grats if working on tube amps is a skill set you have. It's not one I have the time or desire to develop.

IMHO, I think it's pretty crazy that products like tube amps are still sold that require the end user to either find someone with a niche skill to service them or actually partially disassemble the thing and poke around in them at their own risk. I'm not being snarky, I really have a hard time wrapping my head around that one. Seems kinda presumptuous in this day and age.

Yes, "different strokes for different folks". I agree that tube amps are not always easy to deal with. However, learning to set the bias and other basic tube amp maintaince is not difficult to learn.

I really think digital gear is getting better, no doubt about it. But, in my experience I have not heard a modeler that beats the real deal in terms of the rich, organic tone and dynamic response a tube amp offers.

Overall, digital might be easier to deal with but when complex problems such as the subject of this thread pop up you can't just replace a tube and be done. It kind of makes me think of cars...when an old school car has an issue it is usually easy to figure out and deal with. Newer computer controlled cars can be nightmares to fix...

Just my opinion of course!!

[meambobbo]

1 - READING IS GOOD

2 - even if you have a real tube amp you have to worry about gain staging and level thresholds when used with effects. This is even more true when trying to mic up you rig and run the signal into a daw or pa. If anything the pod is better in this regard because incorrect settings are not going to fry anything

[Rena Rune]

This is kind of why I wish there were more top notch affordable Solid State amps as they lack a lot of the BS that comes with either tube amps or modelling.

[Jim Soloway]

Reading up on different gear for curiosity sake...just because I'm not personally into digital modeling gear doesn't mean I'm not interested in learning more about it.




Yes, "different strokes for different folks". I agree that tube amps are not always easy to deal with. However, learning to set the bias and other basic tube amp maintaince is not difficult to learn.

I really think digital gear is getting better, no doubt about it. But, in my experience I have not heard a modeler that beats the real deal in terms of the rich, organic tone and dynamic response a tube amp offers.

Digital might be easier to deal with but when complex problems such as the subject of this thread pop up you can't just replace a tube and be done. It kind of makes me think of cars...when an old school car has an issue it is usually easy to figure out and deal with. Newer computer controlled cars can be nightmares to fix...

Just my opinion of course!!

Since you live in Portland, I would be happy to have you try my rig in person. If you like clean BlackFace style tones, I have that dialed in pretty well. Feel free to give me a call at 503-977-2727 anytime.

[secretsoundz]

I'll take you up on that sometime, Mr. Soloway!

[RedTiger]

This is kind of why I wish there were more top notch affordable Solid State amps as they lack a lot of the BS that comes with either tube amps or modelling.

Yep, totally agree. I've said as much myself. I know there are some companies out there making solid state amps intended for recording and giggin applications, but it seems most are still intended to be stand-ins for tube amps for kids until they can afford the real thing. I don't understand why there aren't more out their like Pritchard that are exploring what's possible.

[mach90]

This is kind of why I wish there were more top notch affordable Solid State amps as they lack a lot of the BS that comes with either tube amps or modelling.
no they just exhibit different problems you have to deal with tube amps are in the main very forgiving to being overdriven ss are not they will clip like crazy and as such gain staging is even more critical

[GuitarKidd]

But it's *not* the patch. It's the amp. Any way I use it, in any given patch, it's the same result.

Upload two or 3 patches you have made to customtone and let's see them. I hate to say it, until you do, it sounds like all you want to is complain about the unit. Give us one of your "clean" patches that you are not happy about as well, and let us look at them.

I don't want to come across as a jerk, but your not giving us anything to go on other than a sound clip and not seeing how you have it set up, tells us nothing.

[Pietro]

no they just exhibit different problems you have to deal with tube amps are in the main very forgiving to being overdriven ss are not they will clip like crazy and as such gain staging is even more critical

THIS!

[C-4]

Maybe you are using the wrong digital device, if you are having some of these problems. I have had no problems using a Marshall JMD-1. It does what it was designed to do the first time, every time. You may spend time updating other digital devices, then trying to fix the updates, and re-tweaking everything for various reasons. I tried that, and found it to not be a good use of my time.
Sometimes, even digital gear which has too many options, is not going to give you what you desire from it.

Instant gratification from the JMD-1 and being able to get clean to high gain sounds immediately which sound good, makes life a lot more pleasurable.

As for tube amps, the samething holds true. Some amps are more fussy then others. I have gotten the same type of flexibility and instant gratification with Diezel amps for 12 years. I don't understand why all the problems, some speak of, exist.

[Pietro]

Upload two or 3 patches you have made to customtone and let's see them. I hate to say it, until you do, it sounds like all you want to is complain about the unit. Give us one of your "clean" patches that you are not happy about as well, and let us look at them.

I don't want to come across as a jerk, but your not giving us anything to go on other than a sound clip and not seeing how you have it set up, tells us nothing.

:agree

This! I'm DYING to see what you're doing in your patches, since I'm not having any problems with this unit even CLOSE to what you have experienced...

[mach90]

no they just exhibit different problems you have to deal with tube amps are in the main very forgiving to being overdriven ss are not they will clip like crazy and as such gain staging is even more critical
and if you strip away the AD/DA converters, digital effect algorithms you are in the HD or any other MFX you are left with a SOLID STATE preamp

[RedTiger]

no they just exhibit different problems you have to deal with tube amps are in the main very forgiving to being overdriven ss are not they will clip like crazy and as such gain staging is even more critical

If you're talking about overdriving a solid state amp, then you're correct, but that's the beauty of solid state. You don't *have* to.

With a tube amp you face several imperfect solutions that you can use individually or together - turning the amp up loud to soak the power tubes, using preamp gain, using a pedal, etc. All of these can sound GREAT, but they're all just a compromise that exploits how tubes work.

With solid state, it can be designed to have as much sustain and compression as you want onboard without any need for pedals, at any volume AND indepedent of volume. Touch sensativity and good-sounding distortion are also possible with a little creativity.*

*disclaimer: I don't know anything about how amps are made. I speak only from anectdotal evidence and my own limited experience.

[mach90]

absolutely, no need to convince me I already use a lot of solid state amps as well as tube amps, however where people run into problems with SS is overdriving the amps plugging in external effects mixer etc and overdriveng one or more amp stages

[RedTiger]

absolutely, no need to convince me I already use a lot of solid state amps as well as tube amps, however where people run into problems with SS is overdriving the amps plugging in external effects mixer etc and overdriveng one or more amp stages

I understand you now. :)

[Pietro]

and if you strip away the AD/DA converters, digital effect algorithms you are in the HD or any other MFX you are left with a SOLID STATE preamp

But, based on the design... you CAN'T take those things out of the equation. It's all integrated...

[Just A Box]

Well, I changed the Plexi patch, bringing the HD output (on the unit) to around 4:00, dropped the pre and post volume on the model, lowered the mixer levels to 0db gain, and found that (at this point) I'm not sure what I'm hearing anymore, but I like how things sound a lot right now.

I'm not sure how much impact moving the reverb or delay into the pre-mixer loop had on the patch, as I was under the impression that placing reverb and delay post mixer was better. Also, as I will hopefully read the "tone guide" in part or in whole at some point, but I'm not too keen on using up three effects slots for EQs to correct tonal shortcomings. BUT, if someone is happy with their tone, it doesn't matter how they get it done.

Can't wait to update the rest of my patches and start tweaking from there. Even better will be when I load up a patch I haven't used in a while and blowing my ears out because I forgot I had the levels cranked to the max.

I'll upload an updated Plexi patch later today to see the improvement or lacks thereof.

[Will Chen]

If you're talking about overdriving a solid state amp, then you're correct, but that's the beauty of solid state. You don't *have* to.

With a tube amp you face several imperfect solutions that you can use individually or together - turning the amp up loud to soak the power tubes, using preamp gain, using a pedal, etc. All of these can sound GREAT, but they're all just a compromise that exploits how tubes work.

With solid state, it can be designed to have as much sustain and compression as you want onboard without any need for pedals, at any volume AND indepedent of volume. Touch sensativity and good-sounding distortion are also possible with a little creativity.

To be fair tube amps can be designed this way as well, but that's way OT.

To the OP. Please do not take any offense, but at this point I have several suggestions:

1. Post your patch. There are lots of folks who have overcome many of the challenges in patch design on the POD HD. Many folks have posted ways in which they feel you could overcome the hurdles which you are encountering. By not offering the associated patch for which you are getting your results and challenging those offering you help, you're coming off as a bit of a curmudgeon at this point. I will be the first to admit the POD HD isn't perfect. To some degree I have a bit of a love/hate relationship with it. But I do think its better than your giving it credit for. Offering a patch to examine not only provides a baseline for suggested changes, but a reference point for others to load up and see if they can replicate your tonal issues.

2. Perhaps get out of the tonal lab. A little technical practice and/or songwriting and a little less obsessing over tone would likely do you some good. To me in the clip it sounds like your hitting the strings with an extremely heavy hand. I agree that there's something happening in the resultant tone with isn't ideal, but I do not agree that it is inherently unavoidable. A softer touch and/or deeper editing would clean that up a ton.

3. And if you simply don't like the first 2 options, forget the POD. Clearly it isn't meshing with you. Move on to something which fits your tonal ideas better. Perhaps the Tech 21 Character series would be a good option. They're dead simple to operate and sound very, very convincing.

[Will Chen]

Well, I changed the Plexi patch, bringing the HD output (on the unit) to around 4:00, dropped the pre and post volume on the model, lowered the mixer levels to 0db gain, and found that (at this point) I'm not sure what I'm hearing anymore, but I like how things sound a lot right now.

I'm not sure how much impact moving the reverb or delay into the pre-mixer loop had on the patch, as I was under the impression that placing reverb and delay post mixer was better. Also, as I will hopefully read the "tone guide" in part or in whole at some point, but I'm not too keen on using up three effects slots for EQs to correct tonal shortcomings. BUT, if someone is happy with their tone, it doesn't matter how they get it done.

Can't wait to update the rest of my patches and start tweaking from there. Even better will be when I load up a patch I haven't used in a while and blowing my ears out because I forgot I had the levels cranked to the max.

I'll upload an updated Plexi patch later today to see the improvement or lacks thereof.

I think the best patch methodology to follow for the majority of people, is to build a patch in the top signal flow between the split and before the mixer, set the pan to center, and mute the secondary chain. Forget about dual chains entirely unless you're going for something very specific which can't be done any other way. With all due respect to meambobbo, forget about EQ as well and keep things as dead simple as possible. I think a huge part of the challenge with the HD500 is they give you enough rope to hang yourself....

[Pietro]

I'm not sure how much impact moving the reverb or delay into the pre-mixer loop had on the patch, as I was under the impression that placing reverb and delay post mixer was better.

As long as the delay and verb are after the amp, it shouldn't matter if they're before or after the mixer at all. I don't myself have any "distortion" in those FX when I use them past the mixer, probably because I'm not making patches as loud as some of y'all...

Glad it is starting to work out for you.

[Pietro]

To me in the clip it sounds like your hitting the strings with an extremely heavy hand. I agree that there's something happening in the resultant tone with isn't ideal, but I do not agree that it is inherently unavoidable. A softer touch and/or deeper editing would clean that up a ton.

didn't want to say that... but I noticed it, too. I've learned over the years not to be a heavy-handed player, after breaking a LOT of strings when I was quite young.

[chrisjw5]

Upload two or 3 patches you have made to customtone and let's see them. I hate to say it, until you do, it sounds like all you want to is complain about the unit. Give us one of your "clean" patches that you are not happy about as well, and let us look at them.

I don't want to come across as a jerk, but your not giving us anything to go on other than a sound clip and not seeing how you have it set up, tells us nothing.

:agree

This should be the new standard in this forum.... post the patch or don't complain. There are plenty of folks here willing to help. Otherwise it's sound and fury, indicating nothing.

[GuitarKidd]

Well, I changed the Plexi patch, bringing the HD output (on the unit) to around 4:00, dropped the pre and post volume on the model, lowered the mixer levels to 0db gain, and found that (at this point) I'm not sure what I'm hearing anymore, but I like how things sound a lot right now.

I'm not sure how much impact moving the reverb or delay into the pre-mixer loop had on the patch, as I was under the impression that placing reverb and delay post mixer was better. Also, as I will hopefully read the "tone guide" in part or in whole at some point, but I'm not too keen on using up three effects slots for EQs to correct tonal shortcomings. BUT, if someone is happy with their tone, it doesn't matter how they get it done.

Can't wait to update the rest of my patches and start tweaking from there. Even better will be when I load up a patch I haven't used in a while and blowing my ears out because I forgot I had the levels cranked to the max.

I'll upload an updated Plexi patch later today to see the improvement or lacks thereof.

The new Cabinet edits I believe will eliminate for the most part most of the EQ's that are used in that tone guide. One of the biggest complaints was the low end fartiness of some of the cabinets. Is spurned a lot of complaints about the cabinets and people wanting to be able to load their own IR's for cabinets. With the new Cab edits or as people are calling it DEP's, you can probably get away with not using EQ's if at all.

[chrisjw5]

The new Cabinet edits I believe will eliminate for the most part most of the EQ's that are used in that tone guide. One of the biggest complaints was the low end fartiness of some of the cabinets. Is spurned a lot of complaints about the cabinets and people wanting to be able to load their own IR's for cabinets. With the new Cab edits or as people are calling it DEP's, you can probably get away with not using EQ's if at all.

What does DEP stand for? "________ effects parameter"?????

[kingjoemom]

What does DEP stand for? "________ effects parameter"?????

Deep edit parameter.

[HolyMuffDiver]

What does DEP stand for? "________ effects parameter"?????
Deep Editing Parameters

[Rena Rune]

no they just exhibit different problems you have to deal with tube amps are in the main very forgiving to being overdriven ss are not they will clip like crazy and as such gain staging is even more critical

No, it depends entirely on the design, much like with Tube amps. Far too many tube amps(and modelers) I've tried have farted out if I try to run a Big Muff or something through them above unity gain.

[Rena Rune]

Upload two or 3 patches you have made to customtone and let's see them. I hate to say it, until you do, it sounds like all you want to is complain about the unit. Give us one of your "clean" patches that you are not happy about as well, and let us look at them.

I don't want to come across as a jerk, but your not giving us anything to go on other than a sound clip and not seeing how you have it set up, tells us nothing.

Allow me to tell you how to recreate the problem then.

Make a new patch.

Select a Plexi 100 Bright.

Set gain to just below half.

There you go.

I haven't set up my thing for uploading patches and doing it for something that simple would be silly. I have said several times it's absolutely nothing to do with the patch for FX placement. It's just using one amp model in the normal fashion.

[Rena Rune]

:agree

This should be the new standard in this forum.... post the patch or don't complain. There are plenty of folks here willing to help. Otherwise it's sound and fury, indicating nothing.

Sorry, but this is driving me insane! I am going to go nuts if you keep it up. It's not to do with the patch. It's any given patch. Anything I do, involving an amp model(and even some of the ODs) will cause this. It's NOTHING TO DO WITH PATCH DESIGN. It's in the amp models themselves.

If you want to hear a "patch" that does it, in the default patches, choose "Bright and Woody". I can hear it very clearly on that patch. It's a problem that needs to be fi xed on Line6's end. I don't know why some people don't have the issue but it seems some people's ears aren't even tuned to it in the first place.

[derek_32999]

To me in the clip it sounds like your hitting the strings with an extremely heavy hand.


Ya, when I heard the clip, I thought "gee, with that style of playing, why WOULDN'T you want crossover distortion"? I mean, bang the hell out of the strings. Its fun! Just don't complain when you get a bunch of string rattle as a result.

I don't have problems with effects down past the mixer clipping, either. However, I tend to not have the mixer turned up way loud, except on a couple patches due to the DT50's volume changes between topologies.

[Will Chen]

Allow me to tell you how to recreate the problem then.

Make a new patch.

Select a Plexi 100 Bright.

Set gain to just below half.

There you go.

I haven't set up my thing for uploading patches and doing it for something that simple would be silly. I have said several times it's absolutely nothing to do with the patch for FX placement. It's just using one amp model in the normal fashion.

So...how did you have the input set? Doubling the signal or did you accommodate for the default setting? And your complaining essentially about the amp's stock settings except for gain, not taking into account the control Line 6 has given you to alter the response of the amp? I can assure you, I do not get the same EXCEPT if I slam my guitar hard enough to force that type of response and that's only with my PRS SE Singlecut, the hottest of my guitars with the input pad disengaged.

If you go looking for problems with any modeling device, your going to find them. I'm not a Line 6 apologist. In fact, since acquiring a GT-100 to demo, the HD500 hasn't gotten very much play time except to A/B. That's not to say one is better than the other, I've got a GSP1101 as well. Each has a set of unique quirks which one needs to learn in order to minimize their impact through parameter tweaks. That's life in the digital modeling universe...

[mach90]

No, it depends entirely on the design, much like with Tube amps. Far too many tube amps(and modelers) I've tried have farted out if I try to run a Big Muff or something through them above unity gain.
of course they will especially if they have a in the case of ss state amps or modellers you are overdriving them. Even some tube amps have ss stages so they will clip.

If you overdrive the hell out of any amp its going to fart out at somepoint how musical that is depends on the design of the amp and if your wacking the amp above unity gain and it has ss state gaine stages you are going to get clipping

A pure tube amp will soak that up to a point but it also depends a lot on how much gain you have dialed in through the amp but every amp design is different and you need to undertand the topology of each amp and their individual gain stages. SOme have more headroom and allow you to stick more gain up front than others

[Gtrman100]

Sorry, but this is driving me insane! I am going to go nuts if you keep it up. It's not to do with the patch. It's any given patch. Anything I do, involving an amp model(and even some of the ODs) will cause this. It's NOTHING TO DO WITH PATCH DESIGN. It's in the amp models themselves.

If you want to hear a "patch" that does it, in the default patches, choose "Bright and Woody". I can hear it very clearly on that patch. It's a problem that needs to be fi xed on Line6's end. I don't know why some people don't have the issue but it seems some people's ears aren't even tuned to it in the first place.
I'm sorry, but your unwillingness to post your patch on Customtone makes me suspicious that you don't really want to find an answer to your problem, you just want to b**ch. We are all trying to get the best tones possible with this gear, and their are many ways to create problems with a complex and flexible software program like this. If there is an inherent bug in the software, let's all confirm it and get the info to Line 6.

You're not the only one who has encountered unwanted distortion, and you would be doing others a favor if you would let others examine your gain staging and effects chain. I don't think that it's a matter of some people not hearing the undesirable distortion; it's obvious in your clip. It's because other people's patches don't exhibit the distortion like yours.

I will take a look at the "Bright and Woody" patch later today to see if it shows the same breakup as your clip.

[darren199]

Hey all, I'm new here - I just found this thread describing exactly what I'm dealing with, so I thought I'd create an account so I can contribute. I've had my HD500 for about 8 months now, and I've come across this from time to time. Often I can dial it out enough to get passable low and mid-gain tones, but not completely. Just last night I was playing with the new plexi lead model, and in a patch with just the amp I was unable to dial out that exact same type of distortion that's heard in the audio clips posted in this thread. It was to the point where I couldn't get a patch to the point where I could just ignore it and play. Now that I'm listening closer to some of my other patches, I'm definitely hearing this to a point in them as well, although it hadn't been as obvious to me until now. I can't really hear it as much in my higher gain patches, but I'm betting that's because it's just masked by the gain. I can attest that this doesn't seem like a natural distortion, and definitely takes away from the tone in a big way. It's much more obvious through my QSC K10 than it is listening to a recording through cheap headphones.

Last night I tried bringing down the gain, the channel volume, the master DEP setting, and the mixer levels on my patch with just a plexi lead, but nothing allowed me to get rid of this completely I also tried messing with all of the DEP amp and cab parameters. Raising the values for bias and bias excursion helped a bit, but didn't completely get rid of the problem. Note that I do have my inputs 1/2 set to Guitar/Variax.

I just wanted to chime in while the thread is still active to confirm that I'm seeing this as well. I'm at work right now, but I should be able to upload some clips and patches later tonight.

[darren199]

I can assure you, I do not get the same EXCEPT if I slam my guitar hard enough to force that type of response and that's only with my PRS SE Singlecut, the hottest of my guitars with the input pad disengaged.

I forgot to mention that I'm playing through a PRS SE Singlecut as well, and I don't have to strum hard or max the volume knob to get this behavior. But as I said, I should be able to post clips and patches showing exactly what I'm dealing with later tonight.

[DRS]

I've been following Rena's complaints about the HD500 over several threads Rena has created. At first I had the same problem but quickly found out the problem and fixed it. Now I have good patches at any volume with any guitar with no weird transients. I'm puzzled Rena won't post his best patch (not clip) so we can "look under the hood." Almost seems like either extreme subborness or a carefully crafted troll against L6.
Regardless, there have been many good and helpful posts by knowledgeable people trying to help. Time to move on.

[mwc2112]

I've been following Rena's complaints about the HD500 over several threads Rena has created. At first I had the same problem but quickly found out the problem and fixed it.

But your solution had to do with FX placement, right? He was saying it happens with just the amp model and no FX, so I don't necessarily think it's the same thing.

I'm puzzled Rena won't post his best patch (not clip) so we can "look under the hood." Almost seems like either extreme subborness or a carefully crafted troll against L6.

That (and other comments) seem a bit unfair since he has identified a stock patch he has this problem with. Not saying it *isn't* some sort of other setup issue on his part, but you wouldn't tell that from a patch anyway.

[meambobbo]

http://foobazaar.com/podhd/toneGuide/setup#clipping
if you follow this to the T, you should NOT have clipping. i'm typing up an even more systematic approach to determining exactly where you are getting clipping.

If for some reason you still have clipping after following all that, you may have a corrupted firmware or a defective unit. I would try a global reset and then re-update the firmware. also, make sure you're not blaming the Pod when in fact the nasty tone is caused by bad cables or guitar electronics.

if you have clipping on EVERYTHING, including when using the tuner or a completely empty patch, the issue is either your input level into the Pod or the output level to a DAW or amp. It has nothing to do with the modeling, but clipping input A/D converters, maxing out digital signal resolutions, or overloading some buffer stage in a real amp.

if your issue is simply the crossover distortion modeled in some of the clean amp models, you can dial this out using the DEP's - I like to turn down Master and turn up Bias X. You can also reduce the Drive control, and/or put a Studio EQ in front the amp model and turn down Gain, and/or change Input 2 to Variax (or Mic).

[DRS]

But your solution had to do with FX placement, right? He was saying it happens with just the amp model and no FX, so I don't necessarily think it's the same thing.



That (and other comments) seem a bit unfair since he has identified a stock patch he has this problem with. Not saying it *isn't* some sort of other setup issue on his part, but you wouldn't tell that from a patch anyway.
I guess a fair analogy would be Rena saying, "my Toyota has a weird sound in the engine." mechanic: "may I look under the hood of your Toyota?" Rena: "no, but that Toyota across the street makes the same noise, what's wrong with my Toyota?"

[Pietro]

Allow me to tell you how to recreate the problem then.

Make a new patch.

Select a Plexi 100 Bright.

Set gain to just below half.

There you go...

How the heck could you POSSIBLY get anything close to a clean sound out of the Plexi with the gain at just below half.

[Franzel]

if your issue is simply the crossover distortion modeled in some of the clean amp models, you can dial this out using the DEP's - I like to turn down Master and turn up Bias X. You can also reduce the Drive control, and/or put a Studio EQ in front the amp model and turn down Gain, and/or change Input 2 to Variax (or Mic).

No need to turn down the Master, and Bias X won't help to reduce the modeled crossover distortion. Turn up the the Bias instead, and you get what you want. You don't have to max Bias, just set it from the default 50% to around 65/70% for the Plexi Lead, and the modeled crossover distortion is mostly gone.

Cheers, Hans

[mwc2112]

I guess a fair analogy would be Rena saying, "my Toyota has a weird sound in the engine." mechanic: "may I look under the hood of your Toyota?" Rena: "no, but that Toyota across the street makes the same noise, what's wrong with my Toyota?"

Why do people insist on car analogies? :cool:

If he says it happens with a stock preset, does that mean he should post that stock preset just to verify that it is, in fact, a stock preset?

I totally get people asking about his input settings, questioning his pick attack and the resultant string buzz etc, but when you say it happens with something everybody already has, what's the point of needing to post it?

[Just A Box]

I'm still waiting to get home and try my Plexi patch with some fresh ears. I felt that it sounded better last night. If I feel like at least some ligit progress was made, I'll share it here.

Also, as far as suggestions to correct these issues:
Some of the remedies involve using adjustments that will alter the overall character of the patch. From Meambobbos guide suggesting lowering pickup height or raising string height as one way to avoid clipping, to the recent suggestion involving tweaking the bias: all will change the overall sound of the patch, irrespective of any corrections made to the sonic symptom described.

I lowered a lot of levels, relocated some effects, and tweaked a few other moves that didn't involve changing gain levels or dropping effects. I'll see how I feel about it later and post it to see if any of you feel that I've made some good progress.

[DRS]

I actually overwrote that patch a long time ago. And if I did have that patch and can't hear a problem, what does that prove? or disprove? If I did hear a problem and was able to fix it, so what? And since when have the awful patches L6 loads into the HDs been any kind of a baseline for tone? If we take the actual patch Rena has attempted to tweak but with no success, we can see what is really going on. If we fix Rena's actual patch, upload it, and then Rena still hears a problem, then either Rena's ears are much better than ours, or Rena is reaching for a tone that just isn't achievable from L6.

[GuitarKidd]

No need to turn down the Master, and Bias X won't help to reduce the modeled crossover distortion. Turn up the the Bias instead, and you get what you want. You don't have to max Bias, just set it from the default 50% to around 65/70% for the Plexi Lead, and the modeled crossover distortion is mostly gone.

Cheers, Hans

Franz, thanks for chiming in. For those of you who don't know, Franz has the magic touch on programming the HD's. So much so that when the HD was released, Franz's patches were so good, that Line6 sent him a nice gift in the form of a DT amp (Correct me if I am wrong on that Franz).

Franz, have you uploaded any new Plexi patches to customtone. (I guess I could just go search).

[Will Chen]

I actually overwrote that patch a long time ago. And if I did have that patch and can't hear a problem, what does that prove? or disprove? If I did hear a problem and was able to fix it, so what? And since when have the awful patches L6 loads into the HDs been any kind of a baseline for tone? If we take the actual patch Rena has attempted to tweak but with no success, we can see what is really going on. If we fix Rena's actual patch, upload it, and then Rena still hears a problem, then either Rena's ears are much better than ours, or Rena is reaching for a tone that just isn't achievable from L6.

For the record, I can hear what the complaint is about and concur that this "artifact", whatever you want to call it, exists in the HD (more prominent in some amps than others). I simply believe they have provided a tool set to minimize it to the point of it being of little concern. That is what's at issue IMHO. Are the default settings ideal? No. Can it be tweaked to sound very good? Yes. Don't complain about the former if your unwilling to do the later...

[mwc2112]

I actually overwrote that patch a long time ago. And if I did have that patch and can't hear a problem, what does that prove? or disprove? If I did hear a problem and was able to fix it, so what? And since when have the awful patches L6 loads into the HDs been any kind of a baseline for tone? If we take the actual patch Rena has attempted to tweak but with no success, we can see what is really going on. If we fix Rena's actual patch, upload it, and then Rena still hears a problem, then either Rena's ears are much better than ours, or Rena is reaching for a tone that just isn't achievable from L6.

If the same behavior, as is being claimed, exists on a stock patch *and* on a custom patch, I fail to see how using the stock patch is irrelevant whereas the custom patch is not. If one can be corrected, the other one can too and I fail to see the distinction.

Of course if you have overwritten the stock patch then that could be problematic for you. :cool:

[fr8_trane]

How the heck could you POSSIBLY get anything close to a clean sound out of the Plexi with the gain at just below half.

Easy...roll back your volume knob on the guitar.;)

It even works when the gain is dimed just like the real thing.

If you really want the ultimate control put the tube comp after the mixer block set for around 40% threshold. Now you can get cleans at 5-6 that are almost the same loudness as the full volume crunch tones.

[Jim Soloway]

For the record, I can hear what the complaint is about and concur that this "artifact", whatever you want to call it, exists in the HD (more prominent in some amps than others). I simply believe they have provided a tool set to minimize it to the point of it being of little concern. That is what's at issue IMHO. Are the default settings ideal? No. Can it be tweaked to sound very good? Yes. Don't complain about the former if your unwilling to do the later...

So why don't I ever hear it (and no one has ever pointed it out in any of my many clips)?

[meambobbo]

ok, here is a very systematic guide:
http://foobazaar.com/podhd/toneGuide/troubleshooting#clipping

hans, the reason i suggest lowering Master and turning up Bias X rather than changing Bias is because from my experiments changing Master and Bias X had less effect on the tone than changing Bias, at least on the Blackface Dbl. I agree that changing Bias does better remove the crossover distortion, but it also has more impact on tone, not necessarily in a good or bad way, but for ppl who want the exact same tone without the distortion, my method will work better.

just a box, you are accidentally putting words in my mouth. i only suggest lowering pickup height if you are getting INPUT CLIPPING. It is the only surefire way to dial it out although a few other tweaks can help a little. otherwise, you will have clipping in all your patches, irrespective of what other settings you choose. if you DON'T have input clipping, I do NOT recommend changing your pickup height but using a different method to dial out the clipping. ALL of my suggestions are designed to be as tone-neutral as possible. Where it is not possible, i advocate dialing out the clipping over preserving the tone.

[fr8_trane]

No need to turn down the Master, and Bias X won't help to reduce the modeled crossover distortion. Turn up the the Bias instead, and you get what you want. You don't have to max Bias, just set it from the default 50% to around 65/70% for the Plexi Lead, and the modeled crossover distortion is mostly gone.

Cheers, Hans

Funny you should say as I like the Plexi best around 70-75% Bias. Its also cool to set the bias to 100% for giggles. Some interesting tones to be had that way on several amps. For instance, a real AC-30 when dimed is basically operating in class A mode so 100% bias would make sense in that application. It also sounds good on the Dr.Z.

Also i like the SS rectified Marshall amps best so I always set the sag to zero on the HD.

[meambobbo]

Jim, I believe you are mainly using the Deluxe Reverb, which doesn't have the crossover distortion. or if it does, it's nowhere near as bad as in the blackface dbl and vox models. correct me if i'm wrong.

i'm not sure about the plexi model. I've used it with all manner of settings - gain, bias, presence. it certainly gets nasty at some settings (and maybe with a kind of artificial tone), but i don't think it has artifacts or anything resembling the crossover distortion.

in any case, the nastyness is pretty easily dialed out on my end. i suspect some people are getting other types of clipping. the whole idea that you either have clipping or not is moot to try to figure out how to eliminate it. that's just groping in the dark. if you really want to eliminate it, you have to determine exactly what is causing it and how to deal with it.

[mwc2112]

So why don't I ever hear it (and no one has ever pointed it out in any of my many clips)?

You play with a pretty soft touch... maybe it has to do with the input level into the unit?

[Will Chen]

So why don't I ever hear it (and no one has ever pointed it out in any of my many clips)?

Your playing clean with a soft touch Jim. It really only comes into play when the gain is turned up, and then only a real issue on a few of the models. I have zero problems with it on low gain and clean patches. But I do hear it (and have dialed it out) on higher gain stuff.

[fiftywatt]

Welcome do the Digital and Modeling Gear forum! Enjoy your stay!

I'd rather tweak settings on a computer interface than do any of the stuff you have to do on the "real deal" all day, any day of the week, no question. Grats if working on tube amps is a skill set you have. It's not one I have the time or desire to develop.

IMHO, I think it's pretty crazy that products like tube amps are still sold that require the end user to either find someone with a niche skill to service them or actually partially disassemble the thing and poke around in them at their own risk. I'm not being snarky, I really have a hard time wrapping my head around that one. Seems kinda presumptuous in this day and age.

Ok.. not being snarky either but here's a point worth making (and one that I bet loads of other guitar players who use modeling gear will concur with) For 32+ years I've used real deal tube amps/stompboxes/mic pre's and most of the other signal chain items that we use to chase "tones". It is because of this that I can dial in modeling devices/software to closely mimic analog/tube gear. In some cases I've gotten gorgeous tones with modelers on my recordings that I cannot reproduce with any of my "real" gear. If not for all the years of using analog stomps/old Marshalls/Vox/Fenders etc. I would not know where to begin when it comes to dialing in all of the virtual rigs available in the HD500/Amplitube/Guitar Rig etc. I've kept most of the old gear for reference too.. which helps a great deal.

[Franzel]

hans, the reason i suggest lowering Master and turning up Bias X rather than changing Bias is because from my experiments changing Master and Bias X had less effect on the tone than changing Bias, at least on the Blackface Dbl. I agree that changing Bias does better remove the crossover distortion, but it also has more impact on tone, not necessarily in a good or bad way, but for ppl who want the exact same tone without the distortion, my method will work better.

meambobbo, my suggestion was mainly directed at those, who are complaining about the crossover distortion, and I don't think your method will be sufficient for them. Bias X is a pretty subtle control and is highly dependant on the Drive and Master settings. Now if you turn down the Master, you'll have a hard time to even hear, what Bias X is doing. Bias X comes into play, when the amp is driven hard.

- Hans

[meambobbo]

try it on the Blackface Dbl. I set Master down to 20%. Then I set Bias X up to about 80-85%. Makes a big difference IMO in how much crossover distortion I get. But yes, if you mainly seek to dial it out, turn up Bias all the way.

[Rena Rune]

If the same behavior, as is being claimed, exists on a stock patch *and* on a custom patch, I fail to see how using the stock patch is irrelevant whereas the custom patch is not. If one can be corrected, the other one can too and I fail to see the distinction.

Of course if you have overwritten the stock patch then that could be problematic for you. :cool:

Why do people insist on car analogies? :cool:

If he says it happens with a stock preset, does that mean he should post that stock preset just to verify that it is, in fact, a stock preset?

I totally get people asking about his input settings, questioning his pick attack and the resultant string buzz etc, but when you say it happens with something everybody already has, what's the point of needing to post it?

Exactly.

I am going insane repeating myself, but it is not my patch. You cannot fix it by tweaking my patches anymore than you can with the stock patches.

Cranking the Bias only works for some models too. On others it just increases the "sustain" of the distortion. Increasing the range of the bias might help but then it'd alter the tone too much, it also reduces overall gain/distortion on some models quite a bit so if I wanted to go from clean breakup to heavy, that could be a problem.

If you want to recreate the "effect" and have overwritten your stock settings, just make a blank patch with the Plexi, AC15

[Franzel]

Franz, thanks for chiming in. For those of you who don't know, Franz has the magic touch on programming the HD's. So much so that when the HD was released, Franz's patches were so good, that Line6 sent him a nice gift in the form of a DT amp (Correct me if I am wrong on that Franz).

Franz, have you uploaded any new Plexi patches to customtone. (I guess I could just go search).

Aah, way too much honour, thanks GuitarKidd!:o I don't have any new patches on CustomTone. I'm gonna post here, when there's anything new.

Cheers, Hans

[GuitarKidd]

Just a quick thought on all this. You know "YOU" (you being all those people that complain that a certain model of an amp doesn't sound like that amp) are all to blame for this stuff, right? Line6 has given us a product that is emulating characteristics of a real amp because of all the Bi@#*&!G going on about how they don't sound like the real thing. Then they try and give us the real thing, and people cry about those aspects of the modeling.

If you guys want a great sounding modeler without all the worrying of gain staging and what not, go to digitech. They make a great product without all the realism IMO.

[RedTiger]

Ok.. not being snarky either but here's a point worth making (and one that I bet loads of other guitar players who use modeling gear will concur with) For 32+ years I've used real deal tube amps/stompboxes/mic pre's and most of the other signal chain items that we use to chase "tones". It is because of this that I can dial in modeling devices/software to closely mimic analog/tube gear. In some cases I've gotten gorgeous tones with modelers on my recordings that I cannot reproduce with any of my "real" gear. If not for all the years of using analog stomps/old Marshalls/Vox/Fenders etc. I would not know where to begin when it comes to dialing in all of the virtual rigs available in the HD500/Amplitube/Guitar Rig etc. I've kept most of the old gear for reference too.. which helps a great deal.

That's a good point. I suppose the only thing I can say is that a great deal of that knowledge can be gained by researching forums like TGP. That's how I did it. I don't know how to bias an amp, but I understand the basic idea of what people mean when they say an amp is biased "cold" and how biasing should effect the tone of an amp. I can apply that to the POD easily enough. But there are some things that I'll admit did not click for me until I could actually afford to buy tube amps, mostly how pedals interact with them as boosts.

[Will Chen]

...If you guys want a great sounding modeler without all the worrying of gain staging and what not, go to digitech. They make a great product without all the realism IMO.

Actually, they model it in Digitech devices too, its just much, much more subdued from the stock Line 6 settings.

[Hoth]

This reminds me of the whole ghost notes debate that raged for years... (with never a final conclusion)

[Pietro]

Exactly.

I am going insane repeating myself, but it is not my patch. You cannot fix it by tweaking my patches anymore than you can with the stock patches.

Cranking the Bias only works for some models too. On others it just increases the "sustain" of the distortion. Increasing the range of the bias might help but then it'd alter the tone too much, it also reduces overall gain/distortion on some models quite a bit so if I wanted to go from clean breakup to heavy, that could be a problem.

If you want to recreate the "effect" and have overwritten your stock settings, just make a blank patch with the Plexi, AC15

I guess I just don't hear a problem...

[Just A Box]

ok, here is a very systematic guide:
http://foobazaar.com/podhd/toneGuide/troubleshooting#clipping


just a box, you are accidentally putting words in my mouth. i only suggest lowering pickup height if you are getting INPUT CLIPPING. It is the only surefire way to dial it out although a few other tweaks can help a little. otherwise, you will have clipping in all your patches, irrespective of what other settings you choose. if you DON'T have input clipping, I do NOT recommend changing your pickup height but using a different method to dial out the clipping. ALL of my suggestions are designed to be as tone-neutral as possible. Where it is not possible, i advocate dialing out the clipping over preserving the tone.


Allow me to withdraw and rephrase:

I'm quite sure there is alot to be learned from your tone guide, I sincerely do. I simply disagree with some methods you employ to achieve what you consider to be great tones.

I think there is something inherently wrong with the HD, and it should have not been released to the public, if the only sure fire way to get great tones out of it is to insert EQs into three locations in the signal chain in order to dial out sonic issues. I can't justify lopping off three effects blocks in favor of EQs.

About the pickup height: Altering the pickup height will affect your tone, sometimes minimally, sometimes moreso. I think we all can agree on that. IMO, that if your guitar is adjusted the way you want it, for it's own particular sound, trying to compensate for a perceived shortcoming on the HD by altering something other than the HD is crazy. I wouldn't do it on a real amp if the amp was the problem.

I don't know everything about tuning this device (clearly), and these are just my opinions, not meant to offend or insult what may work for others.

[Just A Box]

As a slight aside: Regarding this and all threads looking to wring out real and perceived shortcomings with the HD series, I give Line 6 12-16 more months of updates, new amps and paramaters, and that's it. It'll then be time to welcome the HD500-3D! Can't wait for the inclusion of the crossover distortion knob.

[Pietro]

...I give Line 6 12-16 more months of updates, new amps and paramaters, and that's it. It'll then be time to welcome the HD500-3D! Can't wait for the inclusion of the crossover distortion knob.

:rotflmao

[hanales]

Allow me witdraw and rephrase:

I'm quite sure there is alot to be learned from your tone guide, I sincerely do. I simply disagree with some methods you employ to achieve what you consider to be great tones.

I think there is something inherently wrong with the HD, and it should have not been released to the public, if the only sure fire way to get great tones out of it is to insert EQs into three locations in the signal chain in order to dial out sonic issues. I can't justify lopping off three effects blocks in favor of EQs.

About the pickup height: Altering the pickup height will affect your tone, sometimes minimally, sometimes moreso. I think we all can agree on that. IMO, that if your guitar is adjusted the way you want it, for it's own particular sound, trying to compensate for a perceived shortcoming on the HD by altering something other than the HD is crazy. I wouldn't do it on a real amp if the amp was the problem.

I don't know everything about tuning this device (clearly), and these are just my opinions, not meant to offend or insult what may work for others.

It's weird, because I gig my hd500 every weekend, and don't have any of these problems you people talk about. I recently added the DT 50 and it's even better, to the point where I am no longer considering any other devices.

When you say things like "Should not have been released to the public" that's a really damning statement, and demonstrably false. Also, I don't need 3 EQs to sound good, but then again, I got by for years with only one EQ in my tube amps.

Someone in this thread actually said you can't get a proper clean tone at a good volume, yet I do just that every weekend at my gigs.

I really just don't get it.

[meambobbo]

i somewhat agree with what you just said and definitely didn't mean any offense by my comment. i was simply pointing out that "lower pickup height" isn't an accurate summary of how I advocate dialing out clipping. a more accurate summary would be to determine the source of the clipping and dial it out specifically for that source.

As I mentioned in the guide, the input sensitivity is a bit of a weakness in the Pod, but it's not really out of line with most digital devices. From what I've read the 11 rack uses the same A/D converters and I wouldn't be surprised be if it clipped at similar input levels. My audio interface (m audio firewire solo) clipped at the same input levels that clipped the pod, when I used the 1/4" in with the gain knob on 0. I think the weakness is more an issue with A/D conversion on such a dynamic signal than the Pod specifically.

95% of ppl shouldn't have to change their pickup positions. of the remaining 5%, 3% probably don't know what they're doing and have set the pickups so close they're getting pole pull. as to the remainder, you can't please everyone - they can try another product, but i'm curious to know if they get better results, other than using a completely analog device.

if some digital device has an analog buffer before the A/D converter but costs 2x the Pod HD, then one could simply buy a stand-alone buffer for far less. There's no reason Line 6 should jack up the price of their unit to include it for everyone when it only affects 2% of their user base.

As far as the EQ's, it's definitely a drawback. But if the Pod had 2 more extra blocks available it wouldn't be an issue at all. And I wouldn't count using one in front the amp in place of a distortion/boost pedal effect. Really the Pod's EQ's are just really narrow in focus. I'd rather be able to use combinations of narrow EQ's than one all-encompassing one that takes up lots of DSP. I know that may seem a little bizarre to some people, but it's a good, modular approach when DSP is precious. The documentation on the EQ's could have been ALOT better - that's part of why I wrote my guide. Also some of the EQ's could be even narrower, and some could be more functional. But overall, I don't think Line 6 completely failed here.

My issues more often involve running out of DSP than effects blocks. One way I often use EQ's is to time-delay one signal in a dual amp tone to phase correct the two signals. I'd be better served by a time delay that focuses on 0-20ms. Or incorporating that into the cab DEP's.

Most of the EQ issues I have revolve around the extremities of the cab/mic frequency responses. Keep in mind Line 6 wasn't going for a completely plug and play approach here but to accurately model everything. In the studio, this means lots of post-EQ. Even a mixing board live should be EQ'ing some of the tone. The reason my patches have lots of EQ is because I'm trying to get it all from the Pod. The cab DEP's have greatly helped here.

I've found the frequency response from the unit going into a real cab is much more in line of where you'd expect it. So I don't need to use nearly as much EQ. Also, using dual cabs for direct tones can even out the frequency response, so I don't have to use as much EQ.

I wouldn't consider using EQ's to dial out sonic issues a very minor aspect of using EQ's in the Pod - I sometimes use one to dial out a "fizzy spot" in the high frequencies for a heavily distorted tone. This is again associated more with the cab/mic modeling than the amp modeling. and it's a very small aspect of the overall tone. as mentioned earlier, this is also an issue, albeit less "artificial" sounding, using real mic'ed cabs. Granted the Axe 2 and perhaps 11 rack do it better - great but they're also more $$.

I do recommend using some EQ to balance a tone because the natural response of some of the cab/mic models are a bit "unbalanced", but I don't consider this to be sweeping the dirt under the rug.

Normally I'm not a huge Line 6 apologist. but you have to understand where they're coming from before laying into them. if you take a patient and sober approach to what they did, a lot of it actually makes sense, even if it's not exactly intuitive, or well documented.

curiously, what methods do you disagree with of mine?

[Just A Box]

It's weird, because I gig my hd500 every weekend, and don't have any of these problems you people talk about. I recently added the DT 50 and it's even better, to the point where I am no longer considering any other devices.

When you say things like "Should not have been released to the public" that's a really damning statement, and demonstrably false. Also, I don't need 3 EQs to sound good, but then again, I got by for years with only one EQ in my tube amps.

Someone in this thread actually said you can't get a proper clean tone at a good volume, yet I do just that every weekend at my gigs.

I really just don't get it.

Dude, I really love the HD. It was a little sarcasm. The point was that if I heard, prior to purchase, that the HD series required 3 EQs to get it to sound right, I'd think it had a fatal flaw and wouldn't consider buying it. Just a little hyperbole.

You liked the HD enough to continue to add the DT50. I'm considering the DT25. Some people who have concerns about how good or authentic the HD500 sounds might be pushed in the other direction if they think a nagging concern (for them) would only be magnified by diving deeper into the "Dream Rig".

Personally, after seeing the Guitar World JTV variax review, I may look to acquiring one of those before I consider the amp.

[meambobbo]

yes, i documented step-by-step instructions to find any unwanted clipping and dialing it out. people can write them off without trying them, but they've helped lots of people. if you want to be obstinate, that's fine, but you can't make outrageous statements like the device is unusable. maybe it should come with better documentation or be more intuitive or have built in checks or be more ___, in line with your opinion. but we're not crazy when we say we can get great clean tones from the unit.

[Just A Box]

yes, i documented step-by-step instructions to find any unwanted clipping and dialing it out. people can write them off without trying them, but they've helped lots of people. if you want to be obstinate, that's fine, but you can't make outrageous statements like the device is unusable. maybe it should come with better documentation or be more intuitive or have built in checks or be more ___, in line with your opinion. but we're not crazy when we say we can get great clean tones from the unit.

See above, just a little opinion mixed with hyperbole.


"You don't need to see his identification" ..

"These aren't the droids you're looking for"...

"He can go about his business"...

"Move along"...

"Move along! Move along!"

[meambobbo]

just a box, i wasn't really aiming that last post at you.

allow me to lighten things up:
http://teamlattie.tumblr.com/post/20767527587

[Just A Box]

just a box, i wasn't really aiming that last post at you.

allow me to lighten things up:
http://teamlattie.tumblr.com/post/20767527587


That's awesome. Hope it doesn't come with a broken hyperdrive.

[derek_32999]

I liked my patches pretty good, but what I find when I load up Meambobbo's patches is that they are a lot less cluttered sounding. IOW, when you strum a chord, things don't get as mushed up. Even if there is a lot of gain, the definition of your chords/music is intact. I didn't notice it point blank, but when I was a/bing the patches it was evident. Good work :cool:

[GuitarKidd]

If you want to hear a "patch" that does it, in the default patches, choose "Bright and Woody". I can hear it very clearly on that patch. It's a problem that needs to be fi xed on Line6's end. I don't know why some people don't have the issue but it seems some people's ears aren't even tuned to it in the first place.

Bright and Woody is no longer a patch in the recent updates. Have you even updated the HD500?

[dannopelli]

Bright and Woody is no longer a patch in the recent updates. Have you even updated the HD500?


Good point...:horse

[Rena Rune]

For the record, I *really like* the POD HD. The amp models aren't exactly what I would have chosen(between it and my G3, I'm sorted though), but it has some of the best and most usable mid gain tones I've used. The Bassman model is fantastic, as is the Dr.Z, and some of the drives and fuzzes go great with some of the amps. With this update especially I'm finally able to get great rock tones from the Plexi and JCM800(using the Plexi's cab especially).

I got it because of the versatility in effects. I sold my M9 to get one, as I didn't like the limited number of patches etc. with it. There isn't really any other unit that does what the HD does for anywhere near the same price, so I don't have much of a choice. I find myself using the G3 more often these days, as it's a more solid piece of kit for the money.

Aside from the crossover distortion, EQs, lack of working auto-wah and looper quantize, maybe lack of really tight metal tones, the size of the HD500 is one thing that puts me off, I've only gigged with it once and probably won't gig it with often at all in the future. I'm not sure it could be reduced that much though as I need the footswitches.

I have to point out too, that another thing this makes almost unusable are compressors. Compressors are generally used for clean tones - once it hits breakup it's essentially going to stretch out and sustain the crossover distortion. I've heard some pretty hideous sounds doing this, and this is coming from someone who listed to an hour of Merzbow last night.

[derek_32999]

Bright and Woody is no longer a patch in the recent updates. Have you even updated the HD500?


LMFAO... I looked for it over and over and couldn't find it... Is that why??

[derek_32999]

I've heard some pretty hideous sounds doing this, and this is coming from someone who listed to an hour of Merzbow last night.


Ya, those clips you posted sounded horrible. I played for a good while today messing with the POD/DT50 and couldn't get it to sound that bad at all?

[Rena Rune]

It might depend on your guitar. My Jag seems to be a lot better with it, though again with a compressor especially I can hear it on some models. It could be something to do with how it's reacting to low frequencies then, I'm not sure.

[fr8_trane]

This reminds me of the whole ghost notes debate that raged for years... (with never a final conclusion)

The conclusion is they are still there. I gave up trying to win over the masses on that one. FWIW I was maybe the first guy to post clips of the digital clipping artifacts on the HD series. THAT issue blew up here and on the L6 Board and headway was made.

But.. I still hear ghost notes on several of the amps including the JTM and Deluxe. Not as bad as the XT was but still annoying especially when you have some who argue its a FEATURE.:messedup:bkw

[Guitar Vilain]

I've just realized I might have been hearing something entirely different from what RR has described, but I think I was able to duplicate the so called crossover distortion just now. I played a chord to my girlfriend and asked her "what do you hear", and she gave me a weird look, grabbed a piece of celophane and made a similar noise. If this is what you're hearing, maybe I've just solved the puzzle. Try lowering the "Master" knob below the noon position and see if it goes away. With Master past noon virtually any amp model will produce this weird and annoying artifact. Shame, shame, shame on you Line 6.

[Rena Rune]

Haven't tried that yet, will give it a go in a second. The pre models are doing it too though, so I doubt it'll help.

[Jim Soloway]

I've just realized I might have been hearing something entirely different from what RR has described, but I think I was able to duplicate the so called crossover distortion just now. I played a chord to my girlfriend and asked her "what do you hear", and she gave me a weird look, grabbed a piece of celophane and made a similar noise. If this is what you're hearing, maybe I've just solved the puzzle. Try lowering the "Master" knob below the noon position and see if it goes away. With Master past noon virtually any amp model will produce this weird and annoying artifact. Shame, shame, shame on you Line 6.

Hmmmm .... my master volume is ALWAYS past noon and sometimes well past noon.

[DRS]

Bright and Woody is no longer a patch in the recent updates. Have you even updated the HD500?
And I thought I'd overwritten it:facepalm

[Rena Rune]

Yeah, reducing master volume does nothing. It just reduces gain. Yes, if you turn down the gain enough, it'll go away. Turn the pre-gain up again so you get the same level, and it'll come back.

What's really annoying is that it's the most noticeable *just on the edge* of breakup. This makes it especially difficult, for example, if I wanted a clean organ sound form my POG. The Flip Top model does it too -bassists won't be happy at all.

[darren199]

I've got some patches and clips of the distortion that I'm hearing. I just recorded a short clip of the new plexi lead with no pedals, and one of the AC30 with with a boost comp. Both get that somewhat harsh unwanted distortion on the top end. In both clips, the distortion comes through the clearest in the second last chord. I tried maxxing out the bias in the plexi patch, and it got better, but it was definitely still there and (to my ears) not natural sounding. I'm playing through the bridge pickup of a PRS SE Singlecut with the volume around 8. Here are the clips and patches:

Plexi lead:
http://soundcloud.com/darren199/plexi1
Patch: http://line6.com/customtone/tone/218436

AC30:
http://soundcloud.com/darren199/vox1
Patch: http://line6.com/customtone/tone/218437/

Hopefully the distortion is evident in these recordings - it's definitely more obvious through my QSC K10, but I think it comes through reasonably well here. I'm just finding that it's present in most of my low-mid gain patches, and I'd like to know if this is normal behavior or if there is something wrong/different with my unit.

[Rena Rune]

One of the worst things is that the Twin model has it pretty bad too. You need to crank the bias to get a "pushed" sound out of it. And forget about using a compressor.

[Guitar Vilain]

Hmmmm .... my master volume is ALWAYS past noon and sometimes well past noon.

Yeah, reducing master volume does nothing. It just reduces gain. Yes, if you turn down the gain enough, it'll go away. Turn the pre-gain up again so you get the same level, and it'll come back.

What's really annoying is that it's the most noticeable *just on the edge* of breakup. This makes it especially difficult, for example, if I wanted a clean organ sound form my POG. The Flip Top model does it too -bassists won't be happy at all.

This makes me think that some (many) of us might have defective units. That's not encouraging either as my warranty has been expired for months.

[Franzel]

I've got some patches and clips of the distortion that I'm hearing. I just recorded a short clip of the new plexi lead with no pedals, and one of the AC30 with with a boost comp. Both get that somewhat harsh unwanted distortion on the top end. In both clips, the distortion comes through the clearest in the second last chord. I tried maxxing out the bias in the plexi patch, and it got better, but it was definitely still there and (to my ears) not natural sounding. I'm playing through the bridge pickup of a PRS SE Singlecut with the volume around 8. Here are the clips and patches:

Plexi lead:
http://soundcloud.com/darren199/plexi1
Patch: http://line6.com/customtone/tone/218436

AC30:
http://soundcloud.com/darren199/vox1
Patch: http://line6.com/customtone/tone/218437/

Hopefully the distortion is evident in these recordings - it's definitely more obvious through my QSC K10, but I think it comes through reasonably well here. I'm just finding that it's present in most of my low-mid gain patches, and I'd like to know if this is normal behavior or if there is something wrong/different with my unit.

First, as this thread is about crossover distortion, you should ditch the Boost Comp in your AC30 patch. You have set it to 70% Drive and 58% Output, so no wonder you get distortion. In the Plexi patch you have Drive on 81% and Master on 80%. So given the fact your guitar has humbuckers and you have lowered the volume on your guitar to only 8, distortion is to be expected.

- Hans

[darren199]

First, as this thread is about crossover distortion, you should ditch the Boost Comp in your AC30 patch. You have set it to 70% Drive and 58% Output, so no wonder you get distortion. In the Plexi patch you have Drive on 81% and Master on 80%. So given the fact your guitar has humbuckers and you have lowered the volume on your guitar to only 8, distortion is to be expected.

- Hans

Thanks for taking a look! It appears that maybe I've misunderstood exactly what crossover distortion sounds like, but part of the reason I had the gain a little higher on these patches was to make sure the unwanted distortion was obvious. When I bring the master and gain on the plexi way down I can definitely still hear it, but I was worried that it wouldn't be very audible when uploaded, compressed, and listened to on other devices (sorry, I won't be able to post any more samples until tonight). Either way, I'd expect to be able to dial in the plexi with a reasonable amount of gain and get a smooth, natural sounding distortion, but instead I have that harsh ugly distortion (or clipping?) on the top end that makes it impossible to dial in a good sound. Most advice I've come across deals with effects placement, but I'm getting this on the plexi with no effects in the patch, even though I've tried pretty much the full range of all the amp controls (including amp and cab DEP knobs).

It would be interesting to see if someone else with a similar humbucker guitar could try my plexi patch and see if they get the same harsh/ugly distortion. From the great sounding tones I've heard that others are able to get from the plexi, I'm almost wondering if there's something defective with some HD500 units. Due to the fact that many tones that I find on custom tone (including meambobbo's) often have a similar harsh clipping with my setup, I almost have to wonder if everybody's HD500s are working exactly the same...

[meambobbo]

many of my plexi patches I have since modified. The EQ controls have a lot of influence over the distortion tone (since the power amp is providing most of the distortion). with the presence dimed, the distortion gets a very nasty tone - i kind of liked it at first, but i've grown to find it's overbearing. Now I set the mids and presence about the same amount, and I set treble a little lower. This seems to smooth out the tone a bit.

I leave the DEP's at their default settings or turn up Bias a bit. I leave Master cranked. I usually set the Drive around 50-80%. But of course I'm going for a distorted tone. I'm not trying to roll off guitar volume and get it to clean up. I've found the Pod is still far from a real amp in its ability to accurately respond to rolling off the guitar volume knob.

Also, I have not tried using the Plexi for a natural, mild crunch type breakup. If I wanted that I'd use the Park model instead. The Plexi sounds more raw and piercing.

[meambobbo]

Rena, have you gone through my troubleshooting guide on this issue? If you are getting the clipping in the "pre" models, YOUR ISSUE IS NOT THE CROSSOVER DISTORTION ISSUE. You are clipping the Pod somewhere else in the signal chain, either at the input, on certain sensitive effects (mostly EQ's), or by boosting the signal volume past its digital resolution threshold. Or you are distorting the DAW or amp/PA you are running to.

http://foobazaar.com/podhd/toneGuide/troubleshooting#clipping

At this point I'm wondering if you actually want this issue solved. I don't know how many times I've pointed out you need to systematically diagnose where the clipping is coming from before you can start treating it.

[meambobbo]

Guitar Villian, you wrote "Try lowering the "Master" knob below the noon position and see if it goes away. With Master past noon virtually any amp model will produce this weird and annoying artifact. Shame, shame, shame on you Line 6."

I assume you are refering to the big knob labeled "MASTER" on the unit, not the Master DEP for the full amp models. Again, this is not crossover distortion. You are more likely distorting the amp/PA/DAW you are running the Pod into. So not shame on Line 6 - shame on you, for not listening to my advice.

[overunderdrive]

I've been following this thread pretty closely. I did some quick tracking the other night with a HB equipped guitar, and I noticed some unpleasant clipping, but I didn't have the time to diagnose the cause.

then last night, I was tracking again, but this time with a Strat, and there was no hint of that clipping. The settings were basically the same.

I was using headphones both times, so I would have noticed the change.

I have a funny feeling there is an input sensitivity issue that hasn't been discussed. In other words, the signal might be clipping BEFORE it actually hits the effects, even with teh pad engaged on the front of the unit.

I will do some experimentation later to try to get to the bottom of what I experienced.

[darren199]

I've been following this thread pretty closely. I did some quick tracking the other night with a HB equipped guitar, and I noticed some unpleasant clipping, but I didn't have the time to diagnose the cause.

then last night, I was tracking again, but this time with a Strat, and there was no hint of that clipping. The settings were basically the same.

I was using headphones both times, so I would have noticed the change.

I have a funny feeling there is an input sensitivity issue that hasn't been discussed. In other words, the signal might be clipping BEFORE it actually hits the effects, even with teh pad engaged on the front of the unit.

I will do some experimentation later to try to get to the bottom of what I experienced.

For the record, I did a test with a completely empty patch (no amp or effects), and with my guitar volume maxxed I still didn't hear any clipping there. So in my case anyway it seems to be something related to the amp sims.

[James Freeman]

I got the feeling people in this thread like to commiserate together and don't actually give a F or want to solve anything.

[meambobbo]

"I've been following this thread pretty closely."

"I have a funny feeling there is an input sensitivity issue that hasn't been discussed."

**facepalm**

[Rena Rune]

Just to point out, though it sounds like crossover distortion and is affected by the bias knob it's present even on the "Pre" models. Even some of the overdrives exhibit it. My last unit had this problem even worse. I'm thinking that units may have this problem to varying degrees, but it's still probably something that's fixable digitally.

[overunderdrive]

"I've been following this thread pretty closely."

"I have a funny feeling there is an input sensitivity issue that hasn't been discussed."

**facepalm**

my bad...

I went back and read your section on input clipping, and there it is.

FWIW, it's a bit annoying that there isn't at least a clipping LED combined with a variable input gain knob on the unit. but I guess if you just turn off all the modeling, turn your guitar up to 10 and strum a chord, you should be able to tell if the source is too hot.

[RedTiger]

"I've been following this thread pretty closely."

"I have a funny feeling there is an input sensitivity issue that hasn't been discussed."

**facepalm**

:rotflmao

The ones that haven't been discussing for the last 13 pages. :bonk

[meambobbo]

my bad...

I went back and read your section on input clipping, and there it is.

FWIW, it's a bit annoying that there isn't at least a clipping LED combined with a variable input gain knob on the unit. but I guess if you just turn off all the modeling, turn your guitar up to 10 and strum a chord, you should be able to tell if the source is too hot.

totally agree. It would be even better if Line 6 could tell you WHERE in the chain you are clipping. It's definitely possible, AFAIK.

[meambobbo]

Rena, try this:

select a "pre" model with default settings. boost the drive to mild breakup. now reduce amp/channel volume 10-20%. still rattling? keep going - 30-40%. now?

I had a patch I was dealing with last night that was giving this same distortion at lower levels than usual. I don't know why, but it has something to do with the frequency response. Most of the EQ's were quite sensitive to it. Turning down the amp/channel volume dialed out the distortion. I couldn't fit a Studio EQ at the end of the patch to boost back the volume. But when I boosted the SPDIF send levels up real high, it did not re-introduce the distortion.

I don't think the distortion you're experiencing is modeled, I think it's volume dependent. Perhaps the signal has random, normally inaudible spikes that become audible as the levels increase to the point where the digital resolution clips. or maybe there's just a bug in the software that doesn't allow volume past a certain point at certain points in the chain. I think the EQ sensitivity is basically a bug.

but if it's so nasty, then you can compromise volume for tone. at least i think so. give it a whirl and let us know. i'll try it myself when i get home.

[marshall2288]

I haven't chimed in for several pages now but after reading all this....dammit I'm glad I love my HD500.

[meambobbo]

here's one more thing to consider. i remember when i was trying to dial in a mild breakup on an otherwise clean patch the distortion always came in a bit too rattly similar the crossover distortion being described. i had to use a different cab model to get it to sound right. I forget what cab I was initially using but it was definitely the contributing factor to the harsh breakup. I switched to the phd 2x12 with a '67 condenser mic.

[darren199]

here's one more thing to consider. i remember when i was trying to dial in a mild breakup on an otherwise clean patch the distortion always came in a bit too rattly similar the crossover distortion being described. i had to use a different cab model to get it to sound right. I forget what cab I was initially using but it was definitely the contributing factor to the harsh breakup. I switched to the phd 2x12 with a '67 condenser mic.

Thanks for the tip - I really appreciate all the suggestions! I'll give that a try (as well as your previous suggestion to Rena about turning down the channel volume) tonight when I'm back home.

[Guitar Vilain]

Guitar Villian, you wrote "Try lowering the "Master" knob below the noon position and see if it goes away. With Master past noon virtually any amp model will produce this weird and annoying artifact. Shame, shame, shame on you Line 6."

I assume you are refering to the big knob labeled "MASTER" on the unit, not the Master DEP for the full amp models. Again, this is not crossover distortion. You are more likely distorting the amp/PA/DAW you are running the Pod into. So not shame on Line 6 - shame on you, for not listening to my advice.

You assume too much. I have my HD500 connected to a mixer and am monitoring its input levels, no clipping there whatsoever. Why do you take criticism at Line 6 as a personal attack on you, and worse, reply as if that was the case? Are you a Line 6 employee or endorsee? BTW all I have in my test patch is an amp model (tried several, all with the default settings), nothing more. My inputs are set to guitar/variax as per numerous recommendations on this forum, output is set to line / direct.

[meambobbo]

no, i'm not a L6 employee or endorsee. i don't generally care about criticism against line 6 - in fact i do my fair share of it. i guess it just irks me when i see unwarranted criticism or a muddled argument. if we were talking about the lack of a power switch or USB prongs breaking off, i wouldn't rush to line 6 defense at all.

for your issue, the way your master knob is working is not in line with how most people's works for them. so i suspect the issue is with your mixer, even if it isn't hitting red, maybe there's something going on there. if possible test with other mixers or to do different gear, like a real amp. it could be the output amplifier in your pod that's the issue, but i've never heard of that before.

[meambobbo]

ok so i did some experimenting with some mid-gain tones. i focused on the blackface deluxe nrm model using mostly default settings. This model definitely has a nicer sounding breakup with single coils vs. humbuckers, especially the bridge humbucker. i tested using both.

i made 4 patches, comparing the following:
1) "pre" model with 1x12 blackface deluxe cab - 57 on axis vs. '67 condenser
2) full model with 1x12 blackface deluxe cab - 57 on axis vs. '67 condenser
3) full model with 2x12 phd ported cab - 57 on axis vs. '67 condenser
4) full model with 1x12 blackface deluxe cab - 57 on axis with high and low pass vs. 57 on axis with DEP adjustments

The point of all this was to determine if there is crossover distortion, if it's nature is always similar to the rattly digital clipping, what it's source is, and if it can be tamed.

the "pre" model with all defaults had no crossover distortion but wasn't really broken up. turning up the Drive dialed in distortion but also boosted the volume to the point of clipping. I reduced the amp/channel volume so that it was no longer clipping due to volume. the distortion was definitely nasty sounding with the bridge humbucker. a little rattly. Using the different mic didn't help very much.

the full model with default settings was enough to get a good bit of breakup. it does get a bit nasty, but it's less brittle than the cranked pre. there's more of a midrange distortion happening too. changing the mic definitely had a strong impact on the tone in general, getting less of the rattly sound. Not sure if the mic change was simply covering it up, or the mic choice plays a part in the rattlyness being generated.

the results were the same using the 2x12 phd cab, but even better at making the distortion sound less rattly and more natural.

The low pass filter via a mid-focus EQ also strongly dialed back the rattliness of the distortion, but as expected there was also less shimmer to the tone. Better tweaking could likely dial in more shimmer without more rattle. Adjusting the DEP's similarly helped, although it couldn't dial it out completely. It was on par with other adjustments rather than being a surefire fix.

Conclusions: cab, mic, high-end filtering, and DEP adjustments all helped reduce the harshness and noticeability of the rattliness of the distortion for the full model. Using all of these would likely make it not apparent at all. The pre model distortion was harsher and more difficult to deal with.

2 very important additional points - I got a great bridge humbucker breakup from the PhD full amp with default settings, including cab and mic. It did not have the noticeable rattly characteristics. For the Blackface Deluxe nrm, the distortion sounded much nicer (less rattly) using single-coil pickups or a neck humbucker. So pairing amp models with the right pickups is a big part of getting the breakup you want.

I have never played the real versions of the modeled amps, and I'm not very familiar with mid-gain or mild breakup tones. I would agree that the rattliness in the tone is apparent and undesirable. However, this might simply be accurate modeling. It doesn't sound as bad as digital clipping and is mixed into the breakup. Between using the appropriate pickups for the appropriate amp models, adjusting DEP's, using less harsh cab/mic choices, and using high-end filters, I would argue the bad aspects of the tone are easily dialed out. I don't think the Pod HD has inherent problems.

i'll post my patches and clips right now.

[meambobbo]

clips:
http://soundcloud.com/meambobbo/sets/crossover-distortion-test

patches:
http://foobazaar.com/podhd/xoverTest/

[jesserides2005]

So basically, what I've learned from this entire thread is that the POD HD 500 responds well to the dynamics of your pick attack...........

:D

[tbd]

I have had all the pods since pod 2.0 and now i have the pod hd500.

my pod hd500 has digital clipping problem that the other pods didn't have. I can't remove the clipping no matter what i tried to do (and i have tried all the methods that meambobbo advised to).

in certain configuration i can lower the clipping .but if i am picking hard I still hear it even if i playing with single coils and low gain/low master etc.

you can't disguise the problem by saying that it meant to be there as a crossover distortion. I have had many kind of tube amps in the past and still have, and never heard this kind of nasty harsh clipping from tube amp...

Is anybody know if the other devices has the same problem - 300/400/bean/pro? is there pod hd500 devices without the clipping?

after so many update that didn't fix this issue, it make you think - either some of the devices have hardware problem (so line 6 had to do a recall) or this defect is in the development of the pod hd500 (IMO).

[rezidentura]

Sorry if this was mentioned, (Too lazy to read...) but if input was a possible cuprit maybe a radial dragster might help. I think the OP thoughts were the problem was with the POD and not anything else. I have a HD500 and although I'm not sensitive to it, I haven't noticed this problem. I did a recording session last tuesday (before the update) and I couldn't have been happier with the result (XLR OUT, main volume about halfway up)

[darren199]

Ok, now I'm starting to wonder if I'm going crazy now that I'm paying more attention to this problem. I turned on my POD last night to try some of the suggestions that were given, and the same plexi patch that I posted yesterday sounded a fair bit better to me (playing the same guitar with the same pickup/volume/tone settings). I'm not 100% sure if it was just my ears or if there was actually a difference in sound, but last night I was only getting a little bit of this nasty distortion - not enough to cause me to complain about it. I'll have to pay close attention to this over the next few days and see how it goes...

[meambobbo]

tbd, if you ALWAYS have clipping, even with no amp selected or effects in the chain, then the problem has to do with your input levels (or maybe output levels). even if you have low gain pickups, they can still have a voltage spike on pick attack if you pick hard enough in the right place that overwhelms the Pod (or most digital devices). do you have an audio interface you can plug directly into where you can monitor the levels? can you eliminate the problem by rolling back the volume knob?

i mean do you hear the nasty clipping in the second clip i posted, with the single coils? it's not digital clipping, and I can change its tone or dial it down inside the pod. I've never played a Fender Deluxe Reverb, so I don't know what the breakup is supposed to sound like, but I imagine pushing an amp that hard would get you something similar. maybe the harsh rattly nature to the distortion is overstated - but as i said, it can be dialed down.

And keep in mind what you're hearing there also has cabinet and mic simulation. i didn't test the tones through a real amp with both of those disabled.

[tbd]

meambobbo, I don't think i hear clipping while tuning the guitar or without any amp, but i'm in my office, so i can not try it now.

anyway, I have played a drri amps, i have had jcm800, 5150, and now have blackstar and peavey classic at home. not one of this amps had this digital, metalic, harsh clipping that i can hear also in some segment (3 for example) of your second clip ( and more apearent in the first clip).

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aBXntqgPo6Q
this is how it should sound like. no harsh digital clipping.

also, when i try to lower the clipping it is like i'm losing the warmth and the fullness of the amp (when i'm lowering the master/gain/cranking the bias/putting vol. pedal on 60% before/pad etc.).

when i plug the pod to ther return of my amps, the clipping are less noticeable.

[meambobbo]

I'll do some testing tonight to mimic that guy's settings as best I can - notice he's using the vibrato channel, not the normal - I tried that briefly and remember it gave more distortion, but I'm not sure if it was more rattly vs. a normal breakup. He's also got some reverb on there. You can hear him get some similar rattly distortion, even at the lower gain settings, but it's very brief and you have to be listening closely for it.

I think the best way to dial back the rattly sound without affecting the tone would be to use the Mid-Focus to give a low pass with a Q setting of around 50%. The high frequency cutoff extends all the way up to almost 20kHZ at 100%, but quickly moves down so every % counts. See http://foobazaar.com/podhd/toneGuide/eq#effects-mid . Q above 50% it tends to actually boost the cutoff frequency before rolling off which is the opposite of what you'd want to do. I think the 57 off axis would be a better choice than the default 57 on axis as well.

From what I've heard, yes, I suppose the Pod is getting the rattly breakup too early, and it is too powerful compared to the rest of the breakup. I will have to test the vibrato channel with reference to see how obvious the difference is.

Again, I don't find the PhD amp has this similar rattle to its distortion. I definitely think it's the modeling, but I'm outside my comfort zone in discussing the accuracy of the modeling for these amps.

[Rena Rune]

Again I don't think what you're talking about is clipping. Clipping is when the waveform is too big to fit through something or other so bits get chopped off in a square-wave-ish shape which sounds pretty nasty unfiltered(try running one of the fuzz pedals and nothing else). I think it's crossover distortion, just not brought about by the normal means. And people are right when saying that it's not how a tube amp *should* sound like. That Deluxe Reverb demo sounds so much better than it ever does on my HD500, and it's not the quality of the modelling that's the main factor.

[meambobbo]

you mean it IS the quality of modeling that's the main factor? or are you saying this is simply part of all modeling?

[Rena Rune]

I'll take more clips if I get the chance, but I decided to see if my Zoom G3 was as bad for crossover distortion. The answer was a pretty simple no.

http://www.box.com/s/a1f54938515dc14aad59

Here's the Plexi model, also modelling the 1959 amplifier. It's not as warm as the HD(it's not the best model in the box anyway), though I do have it dialed in with the presence all the way up I believe which makes it sound a bit more sterile, so you can hear the distortion more.

It's definitely there. However it's buried lower in the mix and doesn't stand out or sustain as much. Even though I like the sound of the Pod HD model better, I would nearly rather put this on a recording for lower gain tones where the mix won't be all that busy, and do some subtle post EQ to warm it up.

The Twin model also fared much better when I tried it, and I couldn't really hear any with the Hiwatt.

I did notice a bit of it with the Vibroverb, which is possibly my favourite amp in the box for both cleans and farty crunch tones. But it's not unbearable, and since you're going for a more imperfect clean tone with something like that, it works. For something like a twin or deluxe reverb it's not really acceptable, or even for a Plexi IMO.

The JCM2000-ish model also cleaned up much better than the JCM800 on the POD.

Again, the POD is definitely warming sounding as a general rule. But the dynamics on the G3 are great and it doesn't suffer from as many problems like this.

[Electric I]

Could the issue be hardware ? As in ad/da converters not up to the task ?

[Rena Rune]

It would seem unlikely that a cheaper unit like the G3 would be faring relatively better then.

[Lolasaurus]

Just to point out, though it sounds like crossover distortion and is affected by the bias knob it's present even on the "Pre" models. Even some of the overdrives exhibit it. My last unit had this problem even worse. I'm thinking that units may have this problem to varying degrees, but it's still probably something that's fixable digitally.

ummmm...


http://www.google.com/search?btnG=1&pws=0&q=crossover+distortion+and+biasing#hl=en&pws=0&sclient=psy-ab&q=crossover+distortion+and+biasing&oq=crossover+distortion+and+biasing&aq=f&aqi=&aql=&gs_l=serp.12...0l0l0l8164l0l0l0l0l0l0l0l0ll0l0.frg bld.&pbx=1&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.r_qf.,cf.osb&fp=af73696fe4de10c7&biw=1680&bih=925

[Rena Rune]

...... yes, I said that to confirm that it "acts" somewhat like crossover distortion.

It almost sounds like some kind of mistake where the modelled crossover distortion has become present in the pre rather than post section of the model, or something.

[jpelzel]

clips:
http://soundcloud.com/meambobbo/sets/crossover-distortion-test

patches:
http://foobazaar.com/podhd/xoverTest/

Just quickly trying your Xover black.h5e. Can hear it a bit? Maybe if that's what I think it is. But get rid of that unused second amp and it clears up some. If that means anything.

[meambobbo]

i had the two amps in the patch, so FS1 would toggle them. AFAIK the tone should be the same whether using the amp in Channel A or if you dragged it in front of the path split... it might be a bit louder when you drag it in front though.

[meambobbo]

so I did some more testing last night - no clips or patches yet, but here is what i found out. Emulating the clean settings worked very well. I used a '63 Spring Reverb, set the amp with the same settings as the video - Drive 35%, Bass 78%, Treble 50%. I changed the DEP's a little - boosted Bias and reduced Bias X but not very much. I also reduced Sag a little. I also changed the mic used from 57 on axis to '67 condenser.

Note that there are no mids or presence controls on the real amp - I leave these at 50% and 0%, respectively. Deviating from there is a recipe for disaster, especially for broken up tones.

I also tried to get a broken up tone: Drive 80-90%, Bass 50%, Treble 50%. This was more difficult. actually impossible. The distortion indeed has too much of the crackly, rattly crossover distortion. i will say that when using the '67 mic the crossover distortion doesn't sound nearly as piercing or harsh. really the tone isn't that far off from the video, but it's definitely harsher and more broken up, but not in a good way.

Single notes, lower on the fretboard actually sound great, as do small simple chords or intervals. But full chords suffer. chords on the higher strings, higher on the fretboard have it the worst. you can adjust your playing dynamics to compensate, and you have a workable tone, but you do not have a 100% accurate model here AFAIK.

i tried using a mid-focus both in front and behind the amp using it only as a low pass. in front does help clean up the distortion a little so it's warmer, but then you lose some of the pop to single notes. it makes the tone dull. I tried all kinds of settings, but it's all the same - you can find a middle ground for a slight improvement, but when all was said and done, i found it wasn't much better than changing the treble knob. behind the amp was also as expected - the distortion is already in there - you can try to dial it out but it makes the tone more dull and it's always faintly in there.

Changing the DEP's offered mild improvements but nothing to write home about.

Boosting the presence off 0% just makes it worse, even if you compensate by backing off treble. Changing the EQ in other ways, such as using more mids changes the distortion, but does not eliminate the problem while making the tone more dull sounding.

now i don't have much single-coil to work with. I have a EBMM JPM which has a 3 way toggle - the middle position coil split on both neck and bridge humbucker pickups. So I'm basically using 2 single coils similar to a telecaster in position.

Two final points: the crossover distortion does not sound like digital clipping once you change the mic. in both the video and the zoom there is also crossover distortion, just not as much.

[meambobbo]

"Could the issue be hardware ? As in ad/da converters not up to the task ?"

I doubt they have anything to do with it. I have confirmed I'm not getting any input clipping, which would change the way the amp broke up. As for output D/A, I'm not even using them - I'm outputting digitally via SPDIF. And the PhD model delivers a much more natural sounding breakup without the crossover distortion, so if it works on one model, why not another?

[Will Chen]

meambobbo, while I greatly thank you for the work you've done. I must agree with the others that at this point what you are implying is off base. This is not a clipping issue, but has to do with how up front the modeled crossover distortion is in several of the HD amp models at their stock settings, especially during the decay of notes. At this point I think you are clouding the issue with your insistence folks are experiencing some form of unwanted clipping. I complained about this too prior to the the DEP addition. In the earlier firmwares, you were stuck with it. But now its easy to minimize. Its still there, but much more manageable, only an issue when the gain and master is cranked (presuming the other DEPs have been set to minimize), and really only an issue in isolation. In the context of a mix or live performance its a non factor and it can be completely masked by dialing down the gain on the amps exhibiting it and using one of the overdrives or compressors to push the amp for more gain.

[meambobbo]

Will, that's exactly what I'm saying. The issue was clouded because some of the clips (edit - patches) posted earlier on had gain settings on the amp and mixer blocks that would have certainly led to digital clipping. My immediate thoughts were that most of the unwanted tone is simply digital clipping that could be dialed out. After experimenting I agree with Rena and others that the crossover distortion on many models when pushed to mild break-up is too prevalent and lasts too long.

so i encourage people to make sure they are not confusing digital clipping with crossover distortion. but there is too much crossover distortion as well for the modeling to be considered accurate, IMO. and as I said, the whole tone of it changes when switching from the 57 mic to the '67 cond.

[GuitarKidd]

I wonder if Rich Renken would care to chime in here.

[Rena Rune]

I've actually already sent one unit back, and in fairness I did get a new one and the problem did seem more manageable. It could be some weird internal setting that varies from unit to unit.

[Lolasaurus]

I've actually already sent one unit back, and in fairness I did get a new one and the problem did seem more manageable. It could be some weird internal setting that varies from unit to unit.
just now (over the course of this thread)?
or are you referring to a while back

[Rena Rune]

No, a while back. I posted about this before. I suspect the older unit may have been defective in some way that aggravated the problem.

[Electric I]

It would seem unlikely that a cheaper unit like the G3 would be faring relatively better then.

Makes sense, but not all converters are created equal. Or a bad batch could have found it's way into a certain number of units.

"Could the issue be hardware ? As in ad/da converters not up to the task ?"

I doubt they have anything to do with it. I have confirmed I'm not getting any input clipping, which would change the way the amp broke up. As for output D/A, I'm not even using them - I'm outputting digitally via SPDIF. And the PhD model delivers a much more natural sounding breakup without the crossover distortion, so if it works on one model, why not another?

I thank you as well for your continued efforts with all of this. I had 2 HD desktop units fail on me & were subsequently returned. Thank you warranty. And while I would like to take another chance on Line6, I remain ever-so-skeptical.

[jpelzel]

Curious. Is there anything showing whether or not this issue is model specific?

By that I mean hd 500 vs desktop or 300. Not amp models ;).

[Rena Rune]

If I had the money I'd consider selling this and switching to a Desktop/Pedal rig, maybe I'd get lucky and find it has less distortion since it's designed slightly differently.

Not sure how much space that'd save realistically live, but I'm not sure I'm as bothered about the footswitches as I was.

[tbd]

I did some test over the weekend.

first i downloaded the s-gear (free for 15 day) and used the pod as a soundcard - imo the modeling of the fender on the s-gear is much better than the pod. realistic dynamic fatter and warmer. i think the marshal modeling is also better. you don't need to tweak much the presets they are just good. i didn't like the soldano modeling i think the pod high gain amps are better.

strangely i had some digital cliping on the s-gear duke, but less than the pod (the s-gear software have a clipping metter - it didn't show any clipping and i was on the green). so it can be the input of the pod? i don't know. i can't connect the guitar straight to the computer because my asio4all don't work so i can not verify it.

the problem i had with the s-gear is the some anoying latency.

i also tried conecting my pod to external d/a (zero) but it didn't have no impact on the clipping so it is not the internal d/a of the pod.

i tried twiking my settings using 67 mic / mid eq etc' but it made my sound darker and i would like to hear the upper freq but without the digital clipping.

any attempt to make the fender deluxe of the pod to sound warmer and realistic (with the tube comp infront for example) make the clipping louder.

[meambobbo]

tbd, have you tried reducing your guitar's volume knob but turning up the gain on the s-gear amp model? That should prevent getting input clipping on the pod, but you're compensating in s-gear for the softer signal.

if you're getting any kind of digital clipping in the Pod, you should be able to hear it using headphones before sending the signal to PC, and it should be there even if you're using no amp models/effects, such as when using the tuner. definitely eliminate that possibility.

otherwise, the s-gear may be modeling crossover distortion like the pod. i think that's a realistic feature of the fender amps. the problem is that the pod is overstating it, and honestly i think the tone would be better if it were understated or non-existent, rather than accurate, let alone overstated.

[tbd]

I will try to post some clips today with the vol rollback/pad/line etc. fender s-gear (pod as audio interface) vs fender pod hd500 ...

I'm using ssl-1 single coils with low vintage output (and not close to strings) so i should'nt have clipped the input anyway....

[tbd]

Ok i did some clips to demonstrate what i was talking about -

I have used the pod as soundcard with the s-gear.

the pod settings - mixer left balanced /right null
guitar+same and guitar+veriax on some patches
fender deluxe vib chanel no effect just rolled down the master to 50%
(so no power tube clipping).
and than i did some patch that i used the pad instead of line and rolled down the vol of my guitar. than i used 67 mic.
i think you can hear the digital nasty clipping (in the ending of the chord like a "sand" high harsh freq.)

strat guitar , neck pickup, ssl-1 duncan, not close to the strings

sorry for the lousy playing and some clicks on some clips becouse of the short buffer

http://www.box.com/shared/0c87efa4ea0b07526df3

http://www.box.com/shared/df03e767e320f2839af1

http://www.box.com/shared/2154f276a25a7308f344
http://www.box.com/shared/58ff317aa205578cc3cf

http://www.box.com/shared/baf08f1f888f4ae4106f

http://www.box.com/shared/e8c88ff779d66f2c5d7f

[meambobbo]

thanks for the clips, tbd. it seems fairly obvious to me that the s-gear sounds better with the fullness of the response, the attack, and the breakup. the pod sounded thin and bright. something that might be worth trying to compensate is using the 2x12 cab that the Blackface Dbl uses rather than the 1x12 default deluxe reverb cab. that might beef up the tone a little. and maybe adjust the EQ and volume for a more apples to apples comparison. but nothing is going to fix that breakup.

the s-gear has a mild lower breakup that is like a warm kind of purr to it. on the notes where there's a strong attack, you can hear a bit of a more aggressive breakup in the highs. but you don't lose the attack - the tone powers through. and even though you get the more nasty kind of breakup, it sounds much less crackly than the pod.

the pod seems to lack the midsy, warm purr type breakup. and on the attack, it almost sounds like you're hitting a wall - the tone doesn't power through and give you as strong of an attack - it goes right into breakup, and it's the harsher variety. you can really hear how the Pod doesn't get as much attack on the single notes.

that said - it's hard to hear the complete difference between the two from these clips. the s-gear are much louder, and the EQ between the two is pretty far off.

I'm curious to hear clips of the s-gear and Pod pushed clearly into breakup, similar to what my clips were doing. As long as everything's clean, the Pod can be made to sound really good. It seems what it struggles with is replicating the way the real Fender breaks up. The S-Gear tones hear make me optimistic of what it would sound like.

[tbd]

if we go back to the op thread, you can hear in the following clip-

http://www.box.com/shared/2154f276a25a7308f344

that in the end of the chord there is some high freq. that is like metalic "tssss"
to the sound. you can reduce it if you darken you sound but you can not make it vanish. so you can not have realy fendery clean sound from the pod (even if you roll down the master, gain and the chanel vol, low output singlecoil etc)

imo rolling guitar vol. or using pad is not a good solution because it have an impact on your sound.

i think the purpose of the pod is to have variety of amps/mics/cabs but because of this nasty dist. you just using whatever reducing this clipping.

you can tweak the pod to sound fuller and tubyer like the s-gear (with the tube comp for example, eq and some reverb) but that at the price of raising the clipping.

about the low gain overdrive i think it is very good in the pod, in the new plexy gain 20 for example is very good marshall low gain tone, but the crossover clipping is very annoying once you here them.

is there someone here who returned the pod and got new pod without this clipping issue? is there someone here who know how to eliminate the clipping but not loosing the sound with an eq?

[Will Chen]

so you can not have realy fendery clean sound from the pod (even if you roll down the master, gain and the chanel vol, low output singlecoil etc)


It is indeed possible. This is perhaps the best example. Granted technique comes into play. Using a controlled touch pays dividends

su9bT024iqQ

[meambobbo]

yeah - it's not the pure clean tone that's the issue IMO. it's when you try to push it to breakup.

[Will Chen]

yeah - it's not the pure clean tone that's the issue IMO. it's when you try to push it to breakup.

That was a direct answer to his quote. Here are several clips with the HD500 Fender models set to different gain levels.

http://soundcloud.com/willchen28/hd500-w-es-339

you can here "that sound" at the end of the Bassman sectin of the clip. But then again, check out the 5 min mark and beyond in this vid...

kICb4GcYMhA

[meambobbo]

i know! i wasn't arguing with you ;-)

as for your clip, I thought the bassman tone sounded good - maybe a little too much crossover distortion compared to the real deal in the youtube vid, but not terribly far off. I think the Deluxe Reberb fares the worst. the crossover distortion appears before it gets to the warm breakup and it sustains. and from the earlier youtube vid of a real deluxe reverb, the real deal definitely hit crossover distortion as well, but not as easily and it never sustained as long as it does on the pod.

[DRS]

I just put a new private jack speaker in my Reeves Custom 12 - a small amp that excels at edge of break-up and crunchy tones at useable volumes. It sounds great!
So last night I decided to use some of the patches I already had on my HD500 (with Mackie TH12 powered monitor) to try and cop the same edge of break-up tone as my Reeves. I was able to get good versions with the Bassman and Hiwatt settings by only taking the patches I had already made and tweaking the gain knob on the floorboard (not HD Pod Edit). This was done at basement volume levels. When I turned up the Reeves to a level that would be appropriate for a gig with a rock drummer, the HD500 was not so good. But I think this is most likely because the Mackie TH12 seems to get boomy at higher volumes. I think a power amp and actual guitar cab would be different with the HD500. Bottom line - I had good useable giggable tones with no weird distortion in the "edge-of-break up" tone palette compared to an actual tube amp that is pretty stellar in this department. Anyone not familiar with the Reeves C12 combo
SDLewGzqsig&feature=player_embedded#!

[lspaulsp]

That was a direct answer to his quote. Here are several clips with the HD500 Fender models set to different gain levels.

http://soundcloud.com/willchen28/hd500-w-es-339

you can here "that sound" at the end of the Bassman sectin of the clip. But then again, check out the 5 min mark and beyond in this vid...

kICb4GcYMhA

It's funny I have a Boss Bassman pedal and I hated it until I sat down one day after years and went wow, that nasty speaker nasally fizzy break up is exactly how one really sounds. The pedals just fine. My expectations we askew.

[Jim Soloway]

that in the end of the chord there is some high freq. that is like metalic "tssss"
to the sound. you can reduce it if you darken you sound but you can not make it vanish. so you can not have realy fendery clean sound from the pod (even if you roll down the master, gain and the chanel vol, low output singlecoil etc)

You must have much better ears than I do then because I think the clean Fender tones are spectacularly good and I use them every day.

[tbd]

It is indeed possible. This is perhaps the best example. Granted technique comes into play. Using a controlled touch pays dividends

Are you saying that i should strum gently inorder to get a clean sound without the digital "crossover" clipping even at low gain/low master vol/low output pickups ?

As i said before, I have never heard this digital harsh "sand" like clipping before from a tube amp and even from my past pods (2.0, xt, x3), while strumming hard, imo it is not similiar to tube amp clipping ...

the first segment of your clip and mr soloway clip shows that very good clean sound can be achieved from the pod hd500, please share your patch and i will try it.

[Will Chen]

the first segment of your clip and mr soloway clip shows that very good clean sound can be achieved from the pod hd500, please share your patch and i will try it.

I believe Jim has posted a patch or 2 up. I don't plug my HD500 to the computer except for updates and as such don't participate in patch sharing, sorry. There is a wealth of info for programming the HD500 with several good tips suggested in this very thread. For clean tones, you need to make sure you have a guitar which sounds good clean and use the necessary techniques one would typically use for cleaner tones like a softer touch.

[Jim Soloway]

Are you saying that i should strum gently inorder to get a clean sound without the digital "crossover" clipping even at low gain/low master vol/low output pickups ?

As i said before, I have never heard this digital harsh "sand" like clipping before from a tube amp and even from my past pods (2.0, xt, x3), while strumming hard, imo it is not similiar to tube amp clipping ...

the first segment of your clip and mr soloway clip shows that very good clean sound can be achieved from the pod hd500, please share your patch and i will try it.

Here's a link to my current version. It's actually an HD patch but if you want ot use it on a 500, all you have to do is rename the extension.

http://line6.com/customtone/tone/218370/

[tbd]

You must have much better ears than I do then because I think the clean Fender tones are spectacularly good and I use them every day.


I dont think so, you have very good tone in the clip :-).

there are other options -
1. your pod hd300 don't have that issue
2. my pod hd500 is defective.
3. your tone is dark/jazzy so we can't hear the harsh freq.

What is certain is that i'm not the only one that hear this clipping .

[Jim Soloway]

I dont think so, you have very good tone in the clip :-).

there are other options -
1. your pod hd300 don't have that issue
2. my pod hd500 is defective.
3. your tone is dark/jazzy so we can't hear the harsh freq.

What is certain is that i'm not the only one that hear this clipping .

I've owned the 300, the 500 and now use a desk top model (that's what the link is to). I've also used the 300 and the desk top model at a few guitar and amp shows where they were played by dozens of players with all sorts of different playing styles. Most of those players loved the sound they were hearing and that includes a lot of REALLY good players. I suppose it's possible that you have a defective unit, because I have never experienced the problems that you're having.

As for my tone, while it is "jazzy", it really isn't dark at all. In fact, most jazz players consider it to be very bright.

[darren199]

I've owned the 300, the 500 and now use a desk top model (that's what the link is to). I've also used the 300 and the desk top model at a few guitar and amp shows where they were played by dozens of players with all sorts of different playing styles. Most of those players loved the sound they were hearing and that includes a lot of REALLY good players. I suppose it's possible that you have a defective unit, because I have never experienced the problems that you're having.

As for my tone, while it is "jazzy", it really isn't dark at all. In fact, most jazz players consider it to be almost overbearingly bright.

I'm seriously wondering if there's a defective batch of HD500's out there. It just seems like there's two very distinct camps - those who are very happy with the sounds they're getting out of their HD500's, and those (including me) who are complaining about this fizz/clipping/crossover distortion. The second group seems to not be able to completely dial it out no matter what they try, while others are raving about the fantastic tones that they're getting. I can tell that if I didn't have that constant high end distortion in the back of every tone I'd be VERY happy with the sounds I'm getting as well. As it is, I have to dance around it with things like avoiding the SM57 and EQing to minimize (but by no means eliminate) it.

I opened a support ticket with Line6 on Monday including a recording and a patch of the new plexi lead model asking if there's any possibility that my unit is defective. It's been two days and I haven't heard back, but hopefully that gets me somewhere. At this point I'd just like to know if my unit is normal or not - if it is, I can live with that, and I'll keep tweaking to get the best sounds that I can. I just have my doubts based on what I've heard and read...

[Rena Rune]

I've already had my unit replaced once.

[Rena Rune]

Also if you run the amps dead clean you shouldn't get any crossover distortion on most models. But most people like a little bit of breakup. It can be hard to get decent volume out of it with the gain way down.

[mpr]

I opened a support ticket with Line6Tell us if they say anything interesting!

[Will Chen]

Also if you run the amps dead clean you shouldn't get any crossover distortion on most models. But most people like a little bit of breakup. It can be hard to get decent volume out of it with the gain way down.

That isn't the case if you build you patch in a single arm of the parallel chain with the mixer at the end. Then you can boost amp volume and mixer to your heart's content without distorting the virtual input of effects after it.

[Rena Rune]

Yeah, most of the models sound pretty flat without some gain though.

I think it needs some good SS amps that are designed for it, talk to Rich and he agrees, saw him saying so elsewhere too. SS amps don't do the crossover distortion thing either.

[meambobbo]

U can reduce the volume using a studio eq in front the amp and use one behind to boost it back. Also you can use the mixer as will mentioned. And you can reduce the master dep. all of that should clean up the tone and you should be able to get plenty volume

[Rena Rune]

^ Kind of pointless, can't you just reduce the gain? Only worth doing for models that you want to clean up. Some of the metal type amps have interesting cleans.

Reducing the Master DEP has no effect on the crossover distortion too in my experinece.

[Will Chen]

Yeah, most of the models sound pretty flat without some gain though.

I think it needs some good SS amps that are designed for it, talk to Rich and he agrees, saw him saying so elsewhere too. SS amps don't do the crossover distortion thing either.

I would agree that a clean SS amp would be fantastic. I can't speak for "most of the models", but I can say 3 or 4 sound good to me (post 1.4) clean. They're not JC-120 clean, but that's whole different beast. I don't think anyone can listen to any of Jim Soloway's POD clips and say they sound flat. If so, I'd have to say their tonal ideal is not in concert with what the majority of player's would consider a good clean tone.

[TomWaitsForNoMan]

I'm surprised Line6 hasn't been in this thread yet. At 17 pages (and with apparently no consensus) this thread alone could be causing folks to steer clear of the HD500 and go with a competing product.

[MKB]

It's funny I have a Boss Bassman pedal and I hated it until I sat down one day after years and went wow, that nasty speaker nasally fizzy break up is exactly how one really sounds. The pedals just fine. My expectations we askew.
I have an original '59 5F6A Bassman, and they do have the sizzly high end to a certain point. The original is much smoother on the high end, but the sizzle is still there. Part of this is the design causes the output tubes to distort first, where other amps like Marshalls will distort in the preamp before clipping the output tubes. Another thing that makes it more apparent is the Jensen speakers, they have a bright high end response that does very little to tame the sizzle unless the amp is really cranked (in that mode the speakers smooth out a bit).

If someone is getting sizzle with the Tweed Bassman model, experimenting with different cab models might help a bit.

[Rena Rune]

don't forget the Bassman was originally a bass amp. If you listen to the cab model with more amps, it has more higher frequency response as a lot of Bass amps do since they're not expected to go nuts on those frequencies in the first place. Some amps themselves roll off the high frequencies more than others too, so their speakers may not sound as good with other amps. For example amps with "presence" knows tend to be a bit more FR. This is a good thing I think, as it lets you go between a smooth overdrive and more nasty fuzz. I wish modern amps did this.

Speakers are generally the biggest component in sound aside from that. IMO the real reason cheap SS amps sound like shit is the shitty speakers. Much of this "tube like warmth" and roundiness comes from how the speaker rolls off the high end.

Guitar amps work similar to synths, take a harsher, buzzy waveform and filter off the high end. You generally need some resonance for it to sound good of course, which is why just dialing out the high end tends to make it sound muffled. Speakers often have quite complicated frequency responses which makes sure it sounds textured instead of just muffled or low pass filter'd. Running synths through guitar amps can be pretty cool.

[meambobbo]

i've pretty much said all I have to say in this thread, but I did play around with the Deluxe Reverb Vibrato a bit more last night. I found it was mostly the midrange frequencies that really drove the amp into the nasty breakup. So I reduced those with a couple parametric EQ's. I also used a Mid-Focus EQ to make the tone slightly darker before hitting the amp. for the EQ controls on the amp I leave mids at 50 and presence at 0, but I crank up both bass and treble. I messed with the Hum, Bias, and Bias X - might help a little but nothing dramatic. After the amp, I use a Mid-Focus EQ to put the mids back in the tone.

For effects I used a trem, a spring reverb, and a tube screamer which is mostly a boost.

I found I liked the tone I was getting this way much more than the default settings. It still gets the rattle clipping, but it's much less pronounced, and I can get the more bassy, natural-sounding breakup without the tone going to rattle city.

Patch is here for those interested:
http://foobazaar.com/podhd/miscPatches/maB_DelRev_0418.h5e

And before anyone says, "You shouldn't have to do all that to get a good tone," I don't disagree. If you're looking exclusively for the best modeler of Fender mild distortion, I'm no expert, but I'd suggest you explore all options. I'm just saying that I like the tone I get with those settings. I primarily use the Pod for high-gain, and I'm not interested in getting another modeler for Fender slightly-broken-up cleans.