Why is Mesa no longer considered "boutique?"

[guitarrhinoceros]

I am just wondering. I've always thought that they were a boutique amp maker, but it seems I am wrong based on what I read on the 'new. Yet, I never get any definitive or justified reasoning as to why they aren't a boutique amp maker. Could someone help me understand that better?

Thanks!

[scienceguy]

I guess first we need to define "boutique amp maker". Dictionaries define "boutique" as a small shop or company that specializes in something.
While Mesa started out small, they're definitely not that way these days. When I bought my first Boogie in '81, you could only buy it from the shop in Petaluma, and there was a 6 month waiting list. Now you can walk in almost any Guitar Center and buy one.
They quit being boutique when they allowed dealerships. It doesn't mean they're any less of an amp company and I haven't noticed any quality decrease in 30+ years. And they still make their amps in the same location in Petaluma, CA.

[Sirloin]

not this again :facepalm

[440gtx6pak]

It's all just a matter of perception and trends.
Mesa is too mainstream for the Gearpage hipsters right now.
But music equipment here follows basically the same cycle as fashion.

http://qph.cf.quoracdn.net/main-qimg-8ca3f6b93a20790c99bec58572e39127

[Sirloin]

...I haven't noticed any quality decrease in 30+ years.


Actually, their construction techniques on several of their models have changed over the years. They used to promote a "Flying Lead" approach to construction and describe the advantages of this approach on their website. Basically a good quality PCB board hand wired to chassis mounted pots, tube sockets, and transformers, jacks, etc. Many models are no longer made that way. Not sure if is an indication of lower quality, but I personally prefer their flying lead method over PCB mounted tube sockets/pots/jacks. I recently saw a new Mini Recto head in my local very reputable authorized amp tech shop for repair. I said "what's up with the mini recto?". He just chuckled.

[guitarrhinoceros]

not this again :facepalm

Was this already a topic before? Whoops, if it was a previous thread, all apologies.

Mesa, although they definitely sell a lot of amps per year, still operate with a relatively small crew. I went to the factory tour and it was incredibly amazing how small their factory was. And they didn't even work on Fridays. Crazy, right?

[guitarrhinoceros]

It's all just a matter of perception.
Mesa is too mainstream for the Gearpage hipsters right now.
But music equipment here follows basically the same cycle as fashion.

http://qph.cf.quoracdn.net/main-qimg-8ca3f6b93a20790c99bec58572e39127

Ha ha ha! I used to live in Portland, Oregon. people there definitely followed that cycle of living. Too funny and too true!

[Sirloin]

Was this already a topic before? Whoops, if it was a previous thread, all apologies.

Mesa, although they definitely sell a lot of amps per year, still operate with a relatively small crew. I went to the factory tour and it was incredibly amazing how small their factory was. And they didn't even work on Fridays. Crazy, right?

It has come up a lot in the past regarding several amp makers...it's an honest question that usually devolves into a pi$$ing match. But really, does it matter if it's booteek or not? Just get what works for you and play the crap out of it :banana

[guitarrhinoceros]

It has come up a lot in the past regarding several amp makers...it's an honest question that usually devolves into a pi$$ing match. But really, does it matter if it's booteek or not? Just get what works for you and play the crap out of it :banana

I totally agree! I'm just interested in WHY people perceive Mesa the way they do. Mesa is such a polarizing company -- either people love them or hate them (or so it seems).

[Kitten Cannon]

I totally agree! I'm just interested in WHY people perceive Mesa the way they do. Mesa is such a polarizing company -- either people love them or hate them (or so it seems).

Mesas are thoroughly modern amps. And let's face it, lots of guitar player have no interest in that. I personally fall in that camp, although I guess I don't really care if other people want to play modern gear.

But in my opinion, a Mesa usually sounds like the sonic equivalent of finger-paint when I'm looking for a marker. Perhaps I could dial that mush out of the sound, but the few times I've gotten stuck playing one I couldn't... and even when I hear big Mesa guys like Andy Timmons play his I still hear it. And that's just not my bag, baby.

As for why they're not considered boutique, it has more to do with exclusivity than anything else, I think. Boutique gear is supposed to be what you start using once you grow out of shopping for gear at Guitar Center. So anything you can buy at Guitar Center is categorically not boutique. It's heavily distributed, mass produced gear. They've got a zillion different products... and that isn't really a knock against them. They've simply outgrown being "boutique."

[Blues Power]

as far as im concerned if you can buy it in a box store, most mom and pops and 1400 online vendors its no longer boutique. this includes mesa, fulltone, pigtronix and the rest of them companies making 'massed produced items for the masses"

[guitarrhinoceros]

as far as im concerned if you can buy it in a box store, most mom and pops and 1400 online vendors its no longer boutique. this includes mesa, fulltone, pigtronix and the rest of them companies making 'massed produced items for the masses"

In your opinion, does Divided By 13 fall into this non-boutique camp then? They are offered all over the web by primarily online dealers. If you go to Divided's website, it is also clear that they are widely available to the mass market, even if they are priced out of most people's financial range.

[Sirloin]

In your opinion, does Divided By 13 fall into this non-boutique camp then? They are offered all over the web by primarily online dealers. If you go to Divided's website, it is also clear that they are widely available to the mass market, even if they are priced out of most people's financial range.

exactly...and...if that's the case, then Two-Rock are not booteek either.

[440gtx6pak]

I totally agree! I'm just interested in WHY people perceive Mesa the way they do. Mesa is such a polarizing company -- either people love them or hate them (or so it seems).

Well, as a long-term Mesa owner I can say when I got my first MK-IV in 1991, it was intimidating and required setting controls in ways that just did not make sense for a typical Marshall/Fender user. Also, the amp seemed to prefer NON Celestion speakers. I had two choices at that time... the easy way of just saying it sucked and sell it, or spending the time to get it to sound right. Somehow, I could just hear 'through' the amp and was convinced it had killer tones to be unlocked. The same way I can tell a good guitar 'through' a bad setup, I was convinced the MK-IV had potential. Once I did finally get it right and understand it, I was rewarded with an amp that could do basically anything. Most in this world find it easier to choose an amp that instead offers a few tones that the designer 'CHOOSES' for you. The Mesa MK-IV is an open palette and the 'freedom of choices' can overwhelm some because not every setting combination is going to sound good and it's just too much work. Ironically, this is a lifestyle choice too in general for them if you get my analogy.

These days the MK-V took care of the MK-IV layout confusion issues. Plus they make other simpler amps too now for the Marshall/Fender type buyer. Lastly, what hurt them was the Rectifier series. .. Why? .. well just refer to my previous picture of the "Hipster Trend Cycle". :rotflmao

[Kitten Cannon]

In your opinion, does Divided By 13 fall into this non-boutique camp then? They are offered all over the web by primarily online dealers. If you go to Divided's website, it is also clear that they are widely available to the mass market, even if they are priced out of most people's financial range.

exactly...and...if that's the case, then Two-Rock are not booteek either.

How many big box stores can you find these amps in? None.

How many mom and pops? Just their dealers, which isn't any different from any other boutique brand.

As far as I'm concerned, there's your answer.

[speedemon]

It's all just a matter of perception and trends.
Mesa is too mainstream for the Gearpage hipsters right now.
But music equipment here follows basically the same cycle as fashion.

http://qph.cf.quoracdn.net/main-qimg-8ca3f6b93a20790c99bec58572e39127


Brilliant!:rimshot

[speedemon]

Yes,

Try a boss GE-7 with a Mesa, helps quite a bit.

[Sirloin]

How many big box stores can you find these amps in? None.

How many mom and pops? Just their dealers, which isn't any different from any other boutique brand.

As far as I'm concerned, there's your answer.

I thought GC was carrying Two Rock at one point...hence my statement...my apologies

[Kitten Cannon]

I thought GC was carrying Two Rock at one point...hence my statement...my apologies

Not in the brick and mortar stores. And if I recall correctly, they seem to have given up on PBG online as well, although I could be wrong. But anyone can order anything online... Mesa has amps on the floor at GCs all over the country. When you think about it, a lot of people yammer about stuff they've never played here... that's part of the hype and hoopla surrounding the boutique gear, and the fanboy mentality that goes with it all sometimes. Anyone who wants to go hear a Mesa for himself/herself/itself could do so quite easily. And at the same time, I'm not sure I've ever heard a Divided by 13 in real life, and have no idea where I'd even to go find one.

[harryjmic]

They are starting to smell funny.

[teemuk]

Last time I peeked at discussion about a so-called boutique amp it was about output transformer failures due to fitting incorrectly spec'd cheap parts.

I've seen several "boutique" amps that were built like $£¤#£$@ using cheap parts and hazardous and unrealiable techniques. I've also seen several top-notch built generic factory-made amps, even ones made in China.

"Boutique" is just a word. Get over it. Does being boutique or not being boutique magically turn the amps into something different? Why do folks obsess about "Boutique" since it sure isn't representative of neither quality or tone. Bragging rights, perhaps?

[ripoffriffs]

Many people in this forum still insist judging tone with their wallets and the "air" of exclusivity instead of their ears.



http://qph.cf.quoracdn.net/main-qimg-8ca3f6b93a20790c99bec58572e39127

[Soul Man]

It's all just a matter of perception and trends.
Mesa is too mainstream for the Gearpage hipsters right now.
But music equipment here follows basically the same cycle as fashion.

http://qph.cf.quoracdn.net/main-qimg-8ca3f6b93a20790c99bec58572e39127

Outstanding.

[Thinline_slim]

I'm usually much more concerned with how the amp sounds than the categorization of the maker. Not that your question isn't still valid.

[Onioner]

Boutique means something at least reasonably specific. Mesa is a large centralized company that sells through the biggest distributors of our day, hence, not boutique. What you gotta ask is does that mean a damn thing to you? Do you like them more or less?

IMO, it's not that we gotta stop getting hung up on what is and what is not boutique, we gotta stop getting hung up on caring in the first place...

[Blues Power]

In your opinion, does Divided By 13 fall into this non-boutique camp then? They are offered all over the web by primarily online dealers. If you go to Divided's website, it is also clear that they are widely available to the mass market, even if they are priced out of most people's financial range.

that statement doesnt make any sense.
price point doesnt make something booteek.
just b/c someone cant afford or wont pay for it (like me) has nothing to do with it.

[jtm622]

Mesa products are NOT authorized to be carried by every GC across the country... The GC stores that actually have Mesas in stock are fairly limited in number...
(No, I have no idea why that is...)

[docsmith]

not this again :facepalm

+1

lol

[Lance]

This!!! Oh, and it's also because people who own Mesas don't have a green star on their chest. Remember this from when you were a kid?

http://i235.photobucket.com/albums/ee295/Satchemup/574223612_l.jpg


It's all just a matter of perception and trends.

http://qph.cf.quoracdn.net/main-qimg-8ca3f6b93a20790c99bec58572e39127

[wordfromthewise]

Mesas are only modern amps? WTF. How old are you that you consider 1969 modern. Hilarious.

I'm glad mesa is not considered boutique. Because if they were I wouldn't want one.

I love going to concerts or shows and watching some yuppy play through a "boutique" amp and then another guy rip through a standard marshall, fender, or mesa and have the same if not (in most cases) better tone than the booteeker

[madryan]

Mesa is the original Boutique company. Like it or not Randall Smith has done more to push amp technology forward than any other single person.

Additionally, they've never cheaped out. They've never put out a crappy cheap amp. They've never compromised their quality. They've taken some chances on new designs that ended up being duds but that's part of that whole "innovation" thing. Again, Randall Smith has a huge set of brass balls and isn't afraid to take risks on new products that might flop because he's all about pushing the technology.

Some people don't dig that but you can't deny they're the original boutique amp company. Most "boutique" builders are just offering rehashed tweed circuits. Boogie is actually innovating.

[soundchaser59]

Was this already a topic before?

Heh- Heh!! :facepalm

And some of those threads got locked! :eek: :nuts

Finally, I am officially not the new guy on the page any more. :rimshot

[Nickstrtcstr]

IMO, it's not that we gotta stop getting hung up on what is and what is not boutique, we gotta stop getting hung up on caring in the first place...

You are correct with this statement. Mesa has been building great product for 40 years now. Plenty of attention to detail, great components, sturdy build quality. It doesn't make any difference what the categorization of the companies that build amps are. It is important what they sound like. Boogies sound great and they are reliable.

[Nickstrtcstr]

Mesa is the original Boutique company. Like it or not Randall Smith has done more to push amp technology forward than any other single person.

Additionally, they've never cheaped out. They've never put out a crappy cheap amp. They've never compromised their quality. They've taken some chances on new designs that ended up being duds but that's part of that whole "innovation" thing. Again, Randall Smith has a huge set of brass balls and isn't afraid to take risks on new products that might flop because he's all about pushing the technology.

Some people don't dig that but you can't deny they're the original boutique amp company. Most "boutique" builders are just offering rehashed tweed circuits. Boogie is actually innovating.

:agree

[ronmail65]

Right or wrong, I associate boutique with a small business, personalized service, and product customization. Maybe they were boutique one day, but I don't think so anymore.

I don't feel like I could call Mesa and talk to the guy who's building my amp. That's the test.

[guitarrhinoceros]

that statement doesnt make any sense.
price point doesnt make something booteek.
just b/c someone cant afford or wont pay for it (like me) has nothing to do with it.

I never wrote that price makes something boutique. I also don't really care what is or isn't boutique. If I did, I could've spent my money on things that ARE considered boutique. I just thought it would be interesting to see what people perceive boutique to mean. I could never really figure it out. I'm also new to all of this (relatively).

No need to misread my post or to put words in my mouth.

[billfoma]

Many people in this forum still insist judging tone with their wallets and the "air" of exclusivity instead of their ears.

This statement pretty much sums up TGP.

[guitarrhinoceros]

Geez, I'm sorry I started this thread. People get really cranky about this sort of thing, and to make matters worse, some of these posts can easily be misread as being filled with hostility and anger.

Again, I really AM the new guy still. SORRY EVERYONE! Now I know ...

[RedTiger]

Mesas are only modern amps? WTF. How old are you that you consider 1969 modern. Hilarious.

Whenever you read "modern" on TGP with regards to guitar tones, just mentally replace that word with "more gain than I personally like", and you'll do fine.

[Kitten Cannon]

Mesas are only modern amps? WTF. How old are you that you consider 1969 modern. Hilarious.

I'm glad mesa is not considered boutique. Because if they were I wouldn't want one.

I love going to concerts or shows and watching some yuppy play through a "boutique" amp and then another guy rip through a standard marshall, fender, or mesa and have the same if not (in most cases) better tone than the booteeker

As in, they're not making tweed or blackface repros. They're modern. They're intended to "improve" upon the canon of old amps, not to emulate them. Channel switching, power scaling, OD channels, etc. etc.... those are by definition MODERN features.

Anyway, you're welcome to come to one of my gigs anytime and critique the tone of my "yuppy" boutique Tone Kings.

[madryan]

Right or wrong, I associate boutique with a small business, personalized service, and product customization. Maybe they were boutique one day, but I don't think so anymore.

I don't feel like I could call Mesa and talk to the guy who's building my amp. That's the test.

No but you can call up and as often as not talk to Mike B who most likely designed it. They're not a big company.

[jtm622]

"Mesa Boogie" PREDATES the use of the word "boutique" as an adjective for an amp building company...

Consequently, the descriptive term "boutique" has never been applicable to them...

[guitarrhinoceros]

No but you can call up and as often as not talk to Mike B who most likely designed it. They're not a big company.

Yeah, actually this is true. If you call Mesa, you actually can talk to Mike B on the phone if you are insistent enough.

[scolfax]

No but you can call up and as often as not talk to Mike B who most likely designed it. They're not a big company.

+1!

[Kitten Cannon]

No but you can call up and as often as not talk to Mike B who most likely designed it. They're not a big company.

Yeah, but you can just as easily get a hold of Mike Eldred, so does that mean Fender is a boutique company?

[scolfax]

Geez, I'm sorry I started this thread. People get really cranky about this sort of thing, and to make matters worse, some of these posts can easily be misread as being filled with hostility and anger.

This statement pretty much sums up TGP.

[madryan]

Yeah, but you can just as easily get a hold of Mike Eldred, so does that mean Fender is a boutique company?

What's Fender done to compare with the Mark IIC+ with regards to Preamp Topology?

Mike B is a genius.

[soundchaser59]

Geez, I'm sorry I started this thread. People get really cranky about this sort of thing, and to make matters worse, some of these posts can easily be misread as being filled with hostility and anger.

Again, I really AM the new guy still. SORRY EVERYONE! Now I know ...


No need. Never apologize for starting a thread that is based on a sincere or well meaning question.

Everything on the internet is easily misread or misconstrued. Welcome to font world pixel speak.

Some times you will get people who deliberately want to convey hostility simply to watch what happens next, like throwing dry pine twigs on a fire. Hence the existence of this emoticon: :stir

Don't change a thing. Learn, do it better next time, never let the sun set on your guilt in this place. Aint worth it. In the long run, the good info far outweighs the bad, just gotta pay attention.

[Kitten Cannon]

What's Fender done to compare with the Mark IIC+ with regards to Preamp Topology?

Mike B is a genius.

I don't know, but they invented the Telecaster, so...

[Modulator]

The emperor wears no clothes while eating sour grapes in this thread...

[soundchaser59]

I don't feel like I could call Mesa and talk to the guy who's building my amp.

When's the last time you called Mesa?

Rivera is not considered "booteek" any more, but you can call Rivera and - some times - Paul Rivera (Jr.) will answer the phone!

[madryan]

I don't know, but they invented the Telecaster, so...

Fender did great things for the guitar world no doubt but they've tread safe and well charted waters in the amp sector.

[madryan]

When's the last time you called Mesa?

I needed to do some work on my DC-5. Just a serial effects loop mod but I called boogie and got Mike B on the phone and he sent me the complete Schematics for the amp via email.

Quite helpful.

[Kitten Cannon]

Fender did great things for the guitar world no doubt but they've tread safe and well charted waters in the amp sector.

Yeah, it's not like they designed the amps that defined rock and roll or anything.

And if you're going to point out that they started with RCA designs, then I'm going to point out that Randall Smith started by modding Princetons.

[madryan]

You're right, almost nobody plays Fender amps.

No, everyone plays Fender amps. But they're basically nothing new. A typical Fender combo is essentially the exact same Fender that came out 40 years ago aside from being PCB and a little shoddier construction.

No innovation. No vision. No risk.

Just taking their well proven cosmetic and tonal package that sells and re-releasing it year after year. Kind of like the Harley Davidson of the amp world.

In other words, nothing like Mesa Boogie.

[hotraman]

I, for one, am happy with my Mesa Express 5:25... easy to play and create tone with.

I don't care if its boutique or not ... I just want to be inspired to play better. Mesa helps me with this.

[madryan]

Yeah, it's not like they designed the amps that defined rock and roll or anything.

And if you're going to point out that they started with RCA designs, then I'm going to point out that Randall Smith started by modding Princetons.

lol ninja edit.

I'm not bagging on Fender BTW. Don't get butthurt. But they've never taking any risk in their corporate history with regards to their amp division.

[Kitten Cannon]

No, everyone plays Fender amps. But they're basically nothing new. A typical Fender combo is essentially the exact same Fender that came out 40 years ago aside from being PCB and a little shoddier construction.

No innovation. No vision. No risk.

Just taking their well proven cosmetic and tonal package that sells and re-releasing it year after year. Kind of like the Harley Davidson of the amp world.

In other words, nothing like Mesa Boogie.

I get what you're saying, but let's be realistic. If you're the CEO of Fender, and you know that everyone wants a vintage Fender, of course you're going to focus most of your efforts on providing the next best thing for those people. If all they did was try to innovate, they'd have been eaten alive by small builders like Victoria and Clark and such. I mean, really, come to think of it, this is what they DID do throughout the CBS years... and look what that gave us? Rivera amps?

The long and short of it is, by getting there first (and possibly even more importantly by getting there when they did), they also kind of forced themselves into a corner because the old stuff sounded so good.

But, you still have the immensely popular Hot Rod series, Mustang series, the new Pawn Shop series, G-DEC series, SuperSonic amps, and a bevy of other things over the years. So it's not like they're JUST cranking out RIs of old amps.

lol ninja edit.

I'm not bagging on Fender BTW. Don't get butthurt. But they've never taking any risk in their corporate history with regards to their amp division.

Oh I'm not butthurt about anything. I'm just discussing.

I think the biggest mistakes they've made over the years involved taking risks and trying to improve designs that were already good.

But, in the same breath, the blackface amps are a pretty good evolution of the brownface amps, which were a pretty good evolution of the tweeds. They've done their share of innovating... it's just that most of it was done long, long ago.

[madryan]

I get what you're saying, but let's be realistic. If you're the CEO of Fender, and you know that everyone wants a vintage Fender, of course you're going to focus most of your efforts on providing the next best thing for those people. If all they did was try to innovate, they'd have been eaten alive by small builders like Victoria and Clark and such. I mean, really, come to think of it, this is what they DID do throughout the CBS years... and look what that gave us? Rivera amps?

The long and short of it is, by getting there first (and possibly even more importantly by getting there when they did), they also kind of forced themselves into a corner because the old stuff sounded so good.

But, you still have the immensely popular Hot Rod series, Mustang series, the new Pawn Shop series, G-DEC series, SuperSonic amps, and a bevy of other things over the years. So it's not like they're JUST cranking out RIs of old amps.

My point is that you're pulling out Fender amps and it's apples and torque wrenches. You've got Boogie which is a very small very high quality minded company then you have Fender which puts out a huge volume of stuff the best of which barely competes quality wise with the average Boogie amp.

Plus all the newer stuff you're mentioning featuring plate driven tonestacks and high gain circuits are all borrowing technology that Randall Smith and Mike B came up with back in the late 70's and early 80's. That's kind of my point. Plus all the made in China garbage that other amp companies put out you'd never see coming from Boogie.

So yeah... apples and torque wrenches.

[Kitten Cannon]

I never said Fender and Mesa are the same, though... I was originally just pointing out that access to people who are highly influential in the organization isn't that restricted at either company (nor is it with most boutique builders).

For what it's worth, Fender is still building some pretty high end stuff in addition to all the crap. Amps like the Vibro King, by the way, also bear mentioning... and that's not a crappy MIC POS amp, nor is it a repro of anything they used to make. The EC series they're doing now has some pretty wicked stuff too, and I don't think the quality is any less than than it would be from Mesa, or most other boutique brands. Of course, the amps also carry pretty hefty boutique prices, but this is still kind of an irrelevant point.

I won't argue that Fender isn't spread out all over the map doing a zillion different things. Some of which are better than others. But again, my main point... access to influential people in the company doesn't not make the company boutique. Just smart enough to know that's the level of service people will get elsewhere.

I give Fender a lot of credit for watching what the smaller builders have been up to lately, actually... because the last 2-3 years they've been quietly releasing some of the best stuff they've ever made. Some of it is straight up copied from the good old days, but they're doing a lot more vintage-inspired new design stuff than they ever used to, and they're the only large manufacturer that seems to be able to compete with low end and boutique brands at the same time.

[diagrammatiks]

these discussions are funny.

how come no one asks the builder/company if they want to be boutique or not?

Dear Mesa,
Are you boutique?
Sincerely,
Me

Dear You,
Here at Mesa we would very much like to sell as many amps as we damn can.

[guitarrhinoceros]

No need. Never apologize for starting a thread that is based on a sincere or well meaning question.

Everything on the internet is easily misread or misconstrued. Welcome to font world pixel speak.

Some times you will get people who deliberately want to convey hostility simply to watch what happens next, like throwing dry pine twigs on a fire. Hence the existence of this emoticon: :stir

Don't change a thing. Learn, do it better next time, never let the sun set on your guilt in this place. Aint worth it. In the long run, the good info far outweighs the bad, just gotta pay attention.

Thanks for the kind and meaningful words, soundchaser59. It is very much appreciated.

[440gtx6pak]

http://i1108.photobucket.com/albums/h414/440gtx6pak/hipster-.jpg

[macmax77]

I get what you're saying, but let's be realistic. If you're the CEO of Fender, and you know that everyone wants a vintage Fender, of course you're going to focus most of your efforts on providing the next best thing for those people. If all they did was try to innovate, they'd have been eaten alive by small builders like Victoria and Clark and such. I mean, really, come to think of it, this is what they DID do throughout the CBS years... and look what that gave us? Rivera amps?

The long and short of it is, by getting there first (and possibly even more importantly by getting there when they did), they also kind of forced themselves into a corner because the old stuff sounded so good.

But, you still have the immensely popular Hot Rod series, Mustang series, the new Pawn Shop series, G-DEC series, SuperSonic amps, and a bevy of other things over the years. So it's not like they're JUST cranking out RIs of old amps.



Oh I'm not butthurt about anything. I'm just discussing.

I think the biggest mistakes they've made over the years involved taking risks and trying to improve designs that were already good.

But, in the same breath, the blackface amps are a pretty good evolution of the brownface amps, which were a pretty good evolution of the tweeds. They've done their share of innovating... it's just that most of it was done long, long ago.

I think Fender has innovated and by the way, the HRD, is the biggest selling amp in history if i am not wrong!

[macmax77]

these discussions are funny.

how come no one asks the builder/company if they want to be boutique or not?

Dear Mesa,
Are you boutique?
Sincerely,
Me

Dear You,
Here at Mesa we would very much like to sell as many amps as we damn can.

LOL :D

[forum_crawler]

I don't know, but they invented the Telecaster, so...

I fail to see how inventing a boring guitar is worthy of note. I suppose that when the company he works for is busy making the most boring amps known to man...

[Kitten Cannon]

I fail to see how inventing a boring guitar is worthy of note. I suppose that when the company he works for is busy making the most boring amps known to man...

Oh, well if you say so then I guess I better get rid of mine before anyone else catches on.

[SteveO]

I fail to see how inventing a boring guitar is worthy of note. I suppose that when the company he works for is busy making the most boring amps known to man...

Guitars are only as "boring" or "interesting" as the person playing them makes them. ;)

[riffmeister]

I am just wondering. I've always thought that they were a boutique amp maker, but it seems I am wrong based on what I read on the 'new. Yet, I never get any definitive or justified reasoning as to why they aren't a boutique amp maker. Could someone help me understand that better?

Thanks!

Why does a label like 'boutique' even matter?

[stratsnboogies]

The amp I ordered today is #38. I guess that qualifies in this thread as compared to Mesa which I like very much and understand, a great amp does not have to be limited in numbers.

[stratsnboogies]

Guitars are only as "boring" or "interesting" as the person playing them makes them. ;)

Yes, It's like holy shit did you hear that thing? a guitar called Thing?
All the while Thing was the person playing it or not or both. It's a cool thing.

[forum_crawler]

Oh, well if you say so then I guess I better get rid of mine before anyone else catches on.

Ah... So you are a fender amp + tele guy. Nothing wrong with that, decent guitars and amps but hardly the kind of I struments that catch my eye when I visit a music store.

I do see why you may not be a boogie fan, which is cool, not everybody is. I myself like the Mark 5 and Roadster. I have yet to play a fender that I find interesting...

[Kitten Cannon]

Ah... So you are a fender amp + tele guy. Nothing wrong with that, decent guitars and amps but hardly the kind of I struments that catch my eye when I visit a music store.

I do see why you may not be a boogie fan, which is cool, not everybody is. I myself like the Mark 5 and Roadster. I have yet to play a fender that I find interesting...

More often than not, yeah. But still, even if you're like, a die-hard metalhead or something, it's hard not to see what a significant dent the whole Fender thing made on the world of musical instruments as we know it today.

[SteveO]

Ah... So you are a fender amp + tele guy. Nothing wrong with that, decent guitars and amps but hardly the kind of I struments that catch my eye when I visit a music store.

I do see why you may not be a boogie fan, which is cool, not everybody is. I myself like the Mark 5 and Roadster. I have yet to play a fender that I find interesting...

My favorite combination is my Tele with my Mark V and Recto 2x12, but I do also own a DRRI. And no, I don't live on the clean channel of the Boogie.

[SteveO]

More often than not, yeah. But still, even if you're like, a die-hard metalhead or something, it's hard not to see what a significant dent the whole Fender thing made on the world of musical instruments as we know it today.

Yep. There's that whole thing about the drummer who owned a music shop in England, and had his tech build an amp based loosely on a Fender amp...

[forum_crawler]

Guitars are only as "boring" or "interesting" as the person playing them makes them. ;)

Well yes and no. The comment was not about who plays the intruments. James Hetfield and Jim Root (who has a signature model) do not make the intrument interesting.

When placed besides guitars like a les Paul, explorer, flying V, Jackson flying v, the telecaster is the guitar that gets ignored. Wait... My dad may look at it but then pickup the strat instead.

[Kitten Cannon]

Methinks you need to get out more.

[UncleLarry]

Mesa, although they definitely sell a lot of amps per year, still operate with a relatively small crew. I went to the factory tour and it was incredibly amazing how small their factory was. And they didn't even work on Fridays. Crazy, right?

I went on the factory tour a few years back. I was also surprised at the size of the facility. I was employed in manufacturing at the time and asked a few questions about their production process.

Basically the Mesa facility is a design and assembly plant that also does repairs. They build the cabinets, assemble the chassis and do final parts installation and soldering of lead wiring and such. They also do all the inspection and testing before the amps go out the door.

Everything else is outsourced. I don't believe that they have the work done outside of the U.S. but I didn't ask that. The PC boards, metal work, silk screening and paint is all contracted out and done by other fabrication companies according to Mesa specs. The parts are shipped back to Mesa for assembly.

If Mesa did all their manufacturing in house, the facility could easily be five times the size it is now. They would also need a huge investment in real estate, manufacturing equipment and trained workers which would raise their overhead costs significantly.

Niche companies like Mesa quite often build product in batch runs, so it's much more cost effective to be able to order a quantity of components for assembly than tool up an entire factory to manufacture a few hundred amplifiers.

[forum_crawler]

Methinks you need to get out more.

Hm... Me thinks it is the other way around.

I think people who ask for vanilla icecream have never tried other flavours...

Muah ha ha :messedup

[professorfingers]

Mesa does production runs of their different models. I know this from conversations with Mesa folks over the years-in trying to buy special order amps.

TW

[sfarnell]

The way that I understand the term "boutique" is that the term is related to the number of amps sold each year, and whether the designer has his hand in all stages of the build, from selection of the parts, to building the circuits, choosing the cabinetry, and final inspection and testing of the final product.

Mesa sells thousands of amps every year (that my guesstimate), and I doubt that RS personally has his hand in each and every amp that leaves the plant. Two Rock sells hundreds, again my estimate, and I would venture a guess that Bludotone, Carol Ann, Glaswerks, Alessandro, and other "boutique" companies sell less than one hundred amps a year. IMO, these companies are stereotypical "boutique" amp companies. However, Two Rock may be losing that "boutique" label because they are selling so many amps, and the designer has less of a presence in the actual plant than he did before the company was sold. But their amps keep getting better and better, so who cares about a label. I think that Mesa lost the "boutique" label a long time ago. Who the hell cares. They make great amps.

[forum_crawler]

I went on the factory tour a few years back. I was also surprised at the size of the facility. I was employed in manufacturing at the time and asked a few questions about their production process.

Basically the Mesa facility is a design and assembly plant that also does repairs. They build the cabinets, assemble the chassis and do final parts installation and soldering of lead wiring and such. They also do all the inspection and testing before the amps go out the door.

Everything else is outsourced. I don't believe that they have the work done outside of the U.S. but I didn't ask that. The PC boards, metal work, silk screening and paint is all contracted out and done by other fabrication companies according to Mesa specs. The parts are shipped back to Mesa for assembly.

If Mesa did all their manufacturing in house, the facility could easily be five times the size it is now. They would also need a huge investment in real estate, manufacturing equipment and trained workers which would raise their overhead costs significantly.

Niche companies like Mesa quite often build product in batch runs, so it's much more cost effective to be able to order a quantity of components for assembly than tool up an entire factory to manufacture a few hundred amplifiers.

I believe this is the case for most companies that produce amplifiers in volume. I also believe they have someone actually installing all the components on the boards by hand.

They do outsource the chassis, and PCBs, and perhaps the cloth, but the stuff they use is of very high quality, and they use local suppliers. I have not looked inside a Soldano or bogner but I doubt their manufacturers make their boards at home using copper boards and a batch of acid ;)

[diagrammatiks]

mesa's stuff has actually gotten much better in terms of the little details, while doing other stuff to keep prices low.

the ta15 is like 900 bucks. You couldn't buy stuff like that 10 years go.

[UncleLarry]

I believe this is the case for most companies that produce amplifiers in volume. I also believe they have someone actually installing all the components on the boards by hand.

The PCBs are shipped to them with the smaller electronics (resistors, small caps, diodes, some transistors) are installed at the PCB manufacturer by CNC component stuffers and wave soldered. Larger components such as chokes, filter caps, tube sockets, etc., are installed at Mesa.

At least that's the way it was done when I was there about ten years ago. :)

[Anthony_S]

I remember when I got my first Boogie combo many years ago. It was a Studio Caliber DC-2, severely beaten and bruised. Living in rural Sweden, Boogies was quite rare in those days and considered very bo-teek and cooler than an iceberg.

I don't know if it had to do with very limited availability (I was the only Mesa-owner in town. The ONLY one. Imagine just how cool I was ;) And mind you, this was not a Rectifer stack it was a compact little combo!), or the fact that they were so ridiculously expensive back then. Or a combination of both. Today in Sweden, they are as common and as popular as any other classic brand of amplifiers. It must be mentioned that a huge national price-drop took place a couple of years ago, and that might have something to do with it. They are still considered botique amps in a lot of places here in Sweden, though.

[teemuk]

I went on the factory tour a few years back.

And there you have it, folks: A factory, not a boutique.

[macmax77]

question:

If someone likes a Brand, if their amps sound good and work for you, Why the hell does it matter if it is Boutique or not?
What if they sound better than boutiques and can cope sounds and styles boutique cannot?

I mean, why does it matter at all?

buy and play what you want.

[Nickstrtcstr]

I can understand people liking Fender amps (I own one). I don't understand them not liking Mesa amps though. Fender tones are easily achieved on Boogies, especially the Mark Series I, II and III. Think Fender with even more headroom.

[Kitten Cannon]

I can understand people liking Fender amps (I own one). I don't understand them not liking Mesa amps though. Fender tones are easily achieved on Boogies, especially the Mark Series I, II and III. Think Fender with even more headroom.

I think there's only one error in your statement. Highlighted in bold.

[madryan]

I think there's only one error in your statement. Highlighted in bold.

My Lonestar Classic out Fender'd every Twin Reverb I've ever played. The clean was huge and beautiful and squished just enough but still rang like a bell.

[madryan]

While we're at it, lets be honest.

Fender isn't the sound of Rock-n-Roll. That's Marshall. When I think fender I think blues jam at the local club. When I think Marshall I think Arena rock shows with shit blowing up and livestock on stage.

In other words... epic.

[Kitten Cannon]

My Lonestar Classic out Fender'd every Twin Reverb I've ever played. The clean was huge and beautiful and squished just enough but still rang like a bell.

I didn't say it wasn't possible. I've played that amp too. Kind of liked it... still had that low-mid mush area, but you're missing the point.

Some people like twisting knobs and dialing in their amp. They want multiple power levels and drive channels. Some people want their amp to cover every possible tone under the sun. Some people really want a Swiss Army Amp. Those people love their Mesas.

BUT... some people would much prefer something that they can dial in almost immediately. These people tend not to love Mesas... EVEN IF the tones they're aiming for can be achieved with one. Personally, I don't have the patience to dial in an amp that complex, because every room is so different.

For example: with my Tone King, I have a volume, tone, and mid-bite knob on the channel I use most, and then a master reverb and speed/depth controls for the trem. That's it. Kind of hard to screw that up, and tweaking the tone knob or the mid-bite gives me all the range I need to accommodate the different dynamics of a new room. Have I owned considerably more complicated equipment? Certainly - hell, I gig with an Eleven Rack from time to time. And I've owned Bad Cats, and a Star, a few tweeds with the full tone stack (which can get pretty interactive), Voxes, and a few other more amps that aren't so easily dialed in.

I guess my point is, sometimes it has much less to do with what your amp CAN do, and a lot more to do with how easily you can get there. I gig all the time - so on one hand I know my gear pretty well, but on the other, I don't have an hour to sit and twiddle to get 'my tone.' Set up, play all night, tear down, do it again. Simplicity drives a LOT of my gear preferences these days.


While we're at it, lets be honest.

Fender isn't the sound of Rock-n-Roll. That's Marshall. When I think fender I think blues jam at the local club. When I think Marshall I think Arena rock shows with shit blowing up and livestock on stage.

In other words... epic.

You do realize that rock and roll predates the 70s, right?

[madryan]

I didn't say it wasn't possible. I've played that amp too. Kind of liked it... still had that low-mid mush area, but you're missing the point.

Some people like twisting knobs and dialing in their amp. They want multiple power levels and drive channels. Some people want their amp to cover every possible tone under the sun. Some people really want a Swiss Army Amp. Those people love their Mesas.

BUT... some people would much prefer something that they can dial in almost immediately. These people tend not to love Mesas... EVEN IF the tones they're aiming for can be achieved with one. Personally, I don't have the patience to dial in an amp that complex, because every room is so different.

For example: with my Tone King, I have a volume, tone, and mid-bite knob on the channel I use most, and then a master reverb and speed/depth controls for the trem. That's it. Kind of hard to screw that up, and tweaking the tone knob or the mid-bite gives me all the range I need to accommodate the different dynamics of a new room. Have I owned considerably more complicated equipment? Certainly - hell, I gig with an Eleven Rack from time to time. And I've owned Bad Cats, and a Star, a few tweeds with the full tone stack (which can get pretty interactive), Voxes, and a few other more amps that aren't so easily dialed in.

I guess my point is, sometimes it has much less to do with what your amp CAN do, and a lot more to do with how easily you can get there. I gig all the time - so on one hand I know my gear pretty well, but on the other, I don't have an hour to sit and twiddle to get 'my tone.' Set up, play all night, tear down, do it again. Simplicity drives a LOT of my gear preferences these days.




You do realize that rock and roll predates the 70s, right?

I get that. The stereotype that boogies are hard to dial in is pure bunk. They're super easy to dial in once you get how the tonestack works. My lonestar had 2 channels with basic EQ on each. Not a million knobs or switches. I ran 6V6's in it and it sounded incredible. I played with a Blues/Soul group and dialed in a monster fat warm clean sound on the clean and a nice clean fusion style lead tone with the "dirt" channel. You're right that many folks don't need a bunch of options and I used to play out with my Deliverance 60 quite a bit because I could do everything with just my Volume knob and leave my pedalboard at home.

But there's lots of folks who need 2 or 3 good solid discrete sounds and don't want to lug separate amps. Boogies are great for them.

And btw... I grew up on 70's and 80's rock so for me, Rock music will always be about Les Pauls plugged into Marshalls. It's just what I was raised with.

[JPF]

And there you have it, folks: A factory, not a boutique.But maybe they have funky carpeting on the floor, instead of exposed concrete. Surely that would have them straddling the boutique fence at the very least?

[Nickstrtcstr]

I think there's only one error in your statement. Highlighted in bold.

I have to disagree. The settings are right there in the manuals for anyone who cares to read them. There is no shame in reading a manual for anything. Someone years ago gave me this acronym about a non music related issue: RTFM. It works.

[forum_crawler]

While we're at it, lets be honest.

Fender isn't the sound of Rock-n-Roll. That's Marshall. When I think fender I think blues jam at the local club. When I think Marshall I think Arena rock shows with shit blowing up and livestock on stage.

In other words... epic.

I couldn't agree more. The 70's where all Marshall, and the 80's Marshall and boogie, 90's all boogie.

Not to sound mean or anything, but I honestly can't think of a great rocking band that played fender amps.

I have to disagree. The settings are right there in the manuals for anyone who cares to read them. There is no shame in reading a manual for anything. Someone years ago gave me this acronym about a non music related issue: RTFM. It works.

This is very true. I own a Roadster and the sparkly clean tones are there. I don't particularly go for said tones, but they are there. Plug a strat into that sucker and ta-dah.

[Zingeroo]

Boutique or not, to me, rectifiers sound like ass.

[Nickstrtcstr]

Boutique or not, to me, rectifiers sound like ass.

Recto's were designed for metal guys mostly. Not my cup of tea either but, also not indicative of most of the Mesa line.

[dank]

[Quote/]Not to sound mean or anything, but I honestly can't think of a great rocking band that played fender [\QUOTE]


Guess you never heard of The Beatles, huh? Their later work was all Fender.

:facepalm

[SteveO]

Boutique or not, to me, rectifiers sound like ass.

Recto's were designed for metal guys mostly. Not my cup of tea either but, also not indicative of most of the Mesa line.

All Mesas are capable of producing bad tones, just like any other amp. Mesa just has the honor of having an amp line with which the "bad tones" defined the sound of a decade.

[Zingeroo]

All Mesas are capable of producing bad tones, just like any other amp. Mesa just has the honor of having an amp line with which the "bad tones" defined the sound of a decade.

Part of my disdain of "modern rock" bands is their tones. The muddy, sludgy, inarticulate guitar tones. It's like a wall of farts.

[madryan]

[Quote/]Not to sound mean or anything, but I honestly can't think of a great rocking band that played fender [\QUOTE]


Guess you never heard of The Beatles, huh? Their later work was all Fender.

:facepalm

I'm not a boomer. To me the Beatles aren't "rocking" music.

[madryan]

Boutique or not, to me, rectifiers sound like ass.

Properly used they can sound stellar for a wide variety of music. The nu-metal crowd sort of glommed on to them so they got a rap for that genera but they're actually quite versatile.

[SteveO]

Part of my disdain of "modern rock" bands is their tones. The muddy, sludgy, inarticulate guitar tones. It's like a wall of farts.

I couldn't agree more.

[SteveO]

Properly used they can sound stellar for a wide variety of music. The nu-metal crowd sort of glommed on to them so they got a rap for that genera but they're actually quite versatile.

Rectos were originally designed around the time of the hair bands and shred guitar, IIRC, and were not meant to be used the way the nu-metal dimed-gain dropped-D single-finger floggers "played" them.

[Nickstrtcstr]

Properly used they can sound stellar for a wide variety of music. The nu-metal crowd sort of glommed on to them so they got a rap for that genera but they're actually quite versatile.

I don't know if there is a "wrong" way to use an amp. If there was, nu-metal tones would be it IMO. There is no subtlety or nuance to the gained out mush that comes out in this genre. Even the 80's hair metal guys had better tone than that.

[forum_crawler]

[Quote/]Not to sound mean or anything, but I honestly can't think of a great rocking band that played fender [\QUOTE]


Guess you never heard of The Beatles, huh? Their later work was all Fender.

:facepalm
I know, their best tones were thanks to VOX amps.

All Mesas are capable of producing bad tones, just like any other amp. Mesa just has the honor of having an amp line with which the "bad tones" defined the sound of a decade.

I disagree. Modern metal is a different sound that old school 80's with all that chorus and delay. Calling tone crappy because you don't like it is silly

Part of my disdain of "modern rock" bands is their tones. The muddy, sludgy, inarticulate guitar tones. It's like a wall of farts.

I don't know if there is a "wrong" way to use an amp. If there was nu-metal tones would be it IMO. There is no subtlety or nuance to the gained out mush that comes out in this genre. Even the 80's hair metal guys had better tone than that.

"popular" music is seldom about musicianship. Nu-metal is not about playing the guitar but about catchy hooks and sounding heavy.

Assuming that all modern metal is mush is not only silly but also narrow minded. I would love to see people calling Necrophagist, Veil Of Maya, or Dream Theatre mush.

[SteveO]

I disagree. Modern metal is a different sound that old school 80's with all that chorus and delay. Calling tone crappy because you don't like it is silly

I wasn't referring to modern metal, I was referring to the nu-metal stuff from the 90s. Plus, that was a bit tongue-in-cheek. ;)

[teemuk]

Not to sound mean or anything, but I honestly can't think of a great rocking band that played fender amps.

Jimi Hendrix? Focus? Santana? Brian Setzer? Ted Nugent?

If we have to go to strawman arguments then I'd say none of great rocking bands used Marshall amps either since they used Hiwatt or Randall amps. Makes about as much sense.
:stir


What's this got to do with Mesa/Boogie not being boutique, by the way?

[forum_crawler]

I wasn't referring to modern metal, I was referring to the nu-metal stuff from the 90s. Plus, that was a bit tongue-in-cheek. ;)

I must confess that I can't really think of any metal bands from the 90s that I really like. Most of the ones I do had their origins in the 80s. I am so not a fan of "hair metal."

I also don't like nickelcrap... :stir

[forum_crawler]

Jimi Hendrix? Focus? Santana? Brian Setzer? Ted Nugent?


What's this got to do with Mesa/Boogie not being boutique, by the way?

Mesas rock. When I think Jimmy I think Marshall. When I think Santana I think boogie, so did he ;)

[SteveO]

I must confess that I can't really think of any metal bands from the 90s that I really like. Most of the ones I do had their origins in the 80s. I am so not a fan of "hair metal."

I also don't like nickelcrap... :stir

Well, most guitarists tend to not like Nickelback, so there you go...

I was a teenager in the eighties, and just about everybody had the hair by around '87 or '88, but they weren't all considered "hair bands". The hair bands (we referred to them as the "poser bands" back then) were the ones that leaned more on the image than the music (though at the time the bar for guitar prowess was set so high that even the "shitty" bands had great guitar work in them), and the shredders had the hair but were more focused on the guitar parts.

BTW, I didn't call the tone "crappy", I said "bad tones" with the quotes, because the tones that people used for the nu-metal stuff are the same tones that most "anti-Mesa" people refer to when they call Mesa amps muddy and too gainy. So the "bad tones" definition is not my own in this case.

[teemuk]

Mesas rock. When I think Jimmy I think Marshall. When I think Santana I think boogie, so did he

When I think Santana I think of a GMT stack or Silverface Fender amp, after all that's the gear providing his famous tone from Woodstock performance and from his first two albums, and which Boogies just tried to mimic. The stuff he recorded with Mesas isn't all that interesting to begin with.

When I think of Jimmy (Hendrix) I think of several different amps, including Fender, Sunn and Sound City amps. When I think of Jimmy (Page) I think of Hiwatt, Supro or even Rickenbacker.

Folks aren't married to a single amp brand and what you often associate being tone of certain amp usually isn't.

[gatordoc]

IMO, the whole boutique vs non-boutique label is pretty meaningless anyway. Ask 10 different people what boutique means and you will get 10 different definitions.

An amp company: 1) has a head count of one, 2) uses the highest quality components, 3) hand wires each amp, 4) makes 12 amps a year, 5) personally QC's each amp, and 6) charges $5000/amp. Yep, it's boutique.

I forgot to mention, the amps all sound like crap. Still boutique though.

[madryan]

FWIW I like some of the hardcore stuff done with Rectifiers. I mentioned in another thread I used to run a Dual rec and a 2203 stereo and it sounded like the giant fist of an angry god.

Amps are tools. Pick the tool for the job and go with it. I can build an amp that's as clean a build and sounds as good as any builder out there so I don't really care if a builder is "boutique" or not. If I buy someone else's amp it's because it offers something I don't want to take the time to build myself such as 3 channels and tons of features ala a Boogie Mark series or similar amp.

There's a very short list of amps I'd actually buy these days rather than just building and a real Boogie Mark IIC+ is at the very top.

[It's Time!]

Because they sell so many amps.

[Nickstrtcstr]

I know, their best tones were thanks to VOX amps.



I disagree. Modern metal is a different sound that old school 80's with all that chorus and delay. Calling tone crappy because you don't like it is silly





"popular" music is seldom about musicianship. Nu-metal is not about playing the guitar but about catchy hooks and sounding heavy.

Assuming that all modern metal is mush is not only silly but also narrow minded. I would love to see people calling Necrophagist, Veil Of Maya, or Dream Theatre mush.

I didn't call all nu metal music mush. I said that I thought much of that type of tone was mushy (essentially too dark and over compressed). You may find it "silly and narrow minded" but, it is my opinion and I am entitled to it. I am not forcing it on you or calling your opinion silly. That is how it is supposed to work.

I used to play the 80's rock of music with the 80's tone in a band 25 years ago. While I still noodle in that genre for nostalgia's sake I have also embraced less gainy tones and it has made me a better player. Try playing guitar with a really great clean tone sometime. It can be very rewarding.

[jtm622]

FWIW I like some of the hardcore stuff done with Rectifiers. I mentioned in another thread I used to run a Dual rec and a 2203 stereo and it sounded like the giant fist of an angry god.



Occasionally, I run a Mesa Trident and a 2203 "stereo"... The sound you get is coming from everywhere - there's no place to hide... :)

[melodiusthunk]

'Caz Mesa can afford to buy their employees health insurance?

[dearlpitts]

i remember health insurance-barely.

[somedude]

Mesa's sh*ttiest low end amp is still made in America.

Just sayin'...

[LSchefman]

The more we categorize and pigeonhole things, the more we tend to miss out on, because it's human nature to accept these categories and definitions, and not look at opportunities that can arise outside the confines of each category.

By the way, to the person who said Fender amps aren't really rockin': you might be surprised to learn of some of the bands that regularly record or recorded with Fender amps down through the years, among them, Hendrix, Jimmy Page, Dave Grohl (Foo Fighters), The Strokes, The Cure, The Who, U2 (tweed amps)...Geez, so many others it's impossible to list them. This is despite what these pros were "known" for using. I list these bands/artists because they all sound different on recordings and live.

I've been in the business of music for a long time.

Thing is, most pros will use whatever tool in a recording session fits the song, are not partial to only using one amp (though some do insist on a particular amp), and will try lots of different ways to achieve what they want on a song. Sometimes they'll combine amps and often they'll step out of their comfort zone.

It's mainly the amateurs/unitiated who insist that they can only get tones with a certain amp, or see their favorite stars on stage with a given amp, and reach those kinds of conclusions like "you have to do this thing to get a particular sound." Well, not true. There are a surprising number of ways to get your sound.

All amps rock with the right players.

I forgot to mention that lots of Mesa models are terrific recording and gigging tools, and they do lots of things.

[mj07]

I always laugh when I see this come up...again. I feel the inherent nature of boutique is an artisan more personal thing. I don't think boutique stuff comes from a huge factory for a pretty big start. Same way I never thought of PRS as boutique though it is quality.

[Doc58]

It's all in how good it sounds...PCB Boards put us on the Moon!

[stratsnboogies]

The more we categorize and pigeonhole things, the more we tend to miss out on, because it's human nature to accept these categories and definitions, and not look at opportunities that can arise outside the confines of each category.

By the way, to the person who said Fender amps aren't really rockin': you might be surprised to learn of some of the bands that regularly record or recorded with Fender amps down through the years, among them, Hendrix, Jimmy Page, Dave Grohl (Foo Fighters), The Strokes, The Cure, The Who, U2 (tweed amps)...Geez, so many others it's impossible to list them. This is despite what these pros were "known" for using. I list these bands/artists because they all sound different on recordings and live.

I've been in the business of music for a long time.

Thing is, most pros will use whatever tool in a recording session fits the song, are not partial to only using one amp (though some do insist on a particular amp), and will try lots of different ways to achieve what they want on a song. Sometimes they'll combine amps and often they'll step out of their comfort zone.

It's mainly the amateurs/unitiated who insist that they can only get tones with a certain amp, or see their favorite stars on stage with a given amp, and reach those kinds of conclusions like "you have to do this thing to get a particular sound." Well, not true. There are a surprising number of ways to get your sound.

All amps rock with the right players.

I forgot to mention that lots of Mesa models are terrific recording and gigging tools, and they do lots of things.


Maybe older amps and newer Custom shop amps.. I think Eric Johnson and his twin Heads are smoken good.

I have a 1968 50 watt Marshall Replica in route to me. The build number is 38. I suppose it's a boutique amp. For me, it's what I wanted.. A true hand wired 1968 spec Marshall.

[madryan]

Maybe older amps and newer Custom shop amps.. I think Eric Johnson and his twin Heads are smoken good.

I have a 1968 50 watt Marshall Replica in route to me. The build number is 38. I suppose it's a boutique amp. For me, it's what I wanted.. A true hand wired 1968 spec Marshall.

Dang man... you're still waiting on that thing?

[V-Type]

I think Boogie isnt considered by many as a boutiquer these days primarily by how many of them are out there. As well as they are a mass production "boutique" shop.
The owners arent hand building them and they are available at Best Buys,GCs,etc....
The one thing they havent done that other mass producers have ie: Fender,Marshall,Vox,etc.... is come out with a line of SS or modeling guitar amps although they easily could.
Btw just because some Metal guys dial in the chug or Nickelsack uses them doesnt mean they arent capable of Great and genre crossing tones.
User error is imo why Mesa gets such a bad rap.

[madryan]

I think Boogie isnt considered by many as a boutiquer these days primarily by how many of them are out there. As well as they are a mass production "boutique" shop.
The owners arent hand building them and they are available at Best Buys,GCs,etc....
The one thing they havent done that other mass producers have ie: Fender,Marshall,Vox,etc.... is come out with a line of SS or modeling guitar amps although they easily could.
Btw just because some Metal guys dial in the chug or Nickelsack uses them doesnt mean they arent capable of Great and genre crossing tones.
User error is imo why Mesa gets such a bad rap.

This... although you can't fault Nicklesack's tone. Just their totally uninspiring radio friendly writing.

[somedude]

This... although you can't fault Nicklesack's tone. Just their totally uninspiring radio friendly writing.

+1.

I hate Nickelback's songs as much as the next guy, but I find it hard to fault their actual guitar tones.

[madryan]

+1.

I hate Nickelback's songs as much as the next guy, but I find it hard to fault their actual guitar tones.

Another band like that is Blink182... Tom Delong ran a Triple Rec and a JCM-900 in stereo and it sounded huge. Absolutely monstrous.

[forum_crawler]

I didn't call all nu metal music mush. I said that I thought much of that type of tone was mushy (essentially too dark and over compressed). You may find it "silly and narrow minded" but, it is my opinion and I am entitled to it. I am not forcing it on you or calling your opinion silly. That is how it is supposed to work.

I used to play the 80's rock of music with the 80's tone in a band 25 years ago. While I still noodle in that genre for nostalgia's sake I have also embraced less gainy tones and it has made me a better player. Try playing guitar with a really great clean tone sometime. It can be very rewarding.

No worries man, perhaps something got lost in translation there. I agree, we are all entitled to our opinions and that is where variety comes from which is good.

...so long as we all agree that nu-metal and nickelcrap sucks :bonk ha ha

[V-Type]

This... although you can't fault Nicklesack's tone. Just their totally uninspiring radio friendly writing.
Agreed. I was being an ass. Their tones are very good imo.
And yep I kinda like them but in short doses.

[Jonny D]

because they have a factory and mass produce.

[somedude]

because they have a factory and mass produce.

If having a factory and mass production is the difference between whether someone is boutique or not then there's a whole lot of boutique companies that would be eliminated from this category...

http://i.imgur.com/HGjdd.jpg

[teemuk]

If having a factory and mass production is the difference between whether someone is boutique or not then there's a whole lot of boutique companies that would be eliminated from this category...

Indeed, and so they are. Which even more begs the question: Why care?

[J D Miley]

I believe Mesa amps have circuit boards, they are not hand wired.
That is what i think would be one of the requirements for "boutique " status.
To me, the best thing they ever made was the V twin pedal !

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jCsFJgW6FtM

[riffmeister]

true, mesa's amps are foot wired. it's a real challenge.

[somedude]

Indeed, and so they are. Which even more begs the question: Why care?

Because this thread allows us to poke fun at the heart of all that is TGP.

[Onioner]

I believe Mesa amps have circuit boards, they are not hand wired.

Prohibiting circuit boards seems an odd restriction. I'll agree with the hand wired bit, but I'm not quite sure how it's possible to make an amp that isn't hand wired, unless that's another knock on PCBs. Anyways, even discounting my personal beliefs that circuit board vs. turret board vs. eyelet vs. PtP is a rather insignificant distinction, I see no 'cause to strip PCB builders of any vague boutique title.

Really, all that you should need to be a boutique amplifier builder is to be small. Everything else is just personal opinion of what you think is a good practice and what you think isn't. How small is certainly open to interpretation, but size is what matters. I'd add too that you do need to be doing it professionally. Your home builder who sells his work occasionally doesn't count. Give him a website, and some vague sense of professionalism, and it's boutique.

Remember, 'boutique' just meant 'shop.' In english we appropriated it in an age of increasingly large corporations to mean a small, personalized shop. In the age of the internets, the concept of a shop changes pretty dramatically, but the use of the word doesn't really change. Your shop's just more likely to be a website rather than a couple blocks off the local Main Street.

As an aside, I can't believe this thread is still around, nor that I replied to it, nor that I did so in defense of PCB (because that's a futile task to undertake), nor do I really give a damn what you call boutique and what you don't. Yet still I post. Ah well.

[veus55]

I enjoy the sound of different amps. A Mesa is a Mesa and you can identify that modern type of amp.

I like it for what it is the same way that I love the blackface sound, tweed sound,..........

[riffmeister]

As an aside, I can't believe this thread is still around, nor that I replied to it, nor that I did so in defense of PCB (because that's a futile task to undertake), nor do I really give a damn what you call boutique and what you don't. Yet still I post. Ah well.

I know what you mean.

How many angels fit on the head of a pin? :bonk

[lang.murphy]

As an aside, I can't believe this thread is still around, nor that I replied to it, nor that I did so in defense of PCB (because that's a futile task to undertake), nor do I really give a damn what you call boutique and what you don't. Yet still I post. Ah well.

One of my favorite amps was my '73 Marshall 1959 PCB... gawd... that amp was a MONSTER! It could stand with the best turret board amps, in my opinion. Crazy great cleans and, needless to say, dime both channels and run a MM into it and the feedback was freakin' HILARIOUS! Yeah... gotta vote it best amp I've ever owned. PCB. Rawk on...

[Adambomb]

I have read this whole thread and I think everythings been debated and covered already. Everything now will just be Mesa lovers or haters. I personally love most Mesa amps. So much punch, clarity, saturation and definition in their tone. Boutique or not who cares now. I'm 100% sure Randall Smith has had so many oppurtunities to "cheap out", sell out, manufacture outside US, or buy other companies and have an empire of multiple amp companies... But Randall Smith has not.

I wonder how many "Boutique" amp builders out there now that "if" given or had as much success as Randall Smith, if they would stay as true and humble as far as truely making great amps and still trying to make more amp magic as Randall Smith still tries to do every year.

I used to built a component for Mesa Boogie years ago along with many other amp manufactures and I can honestly say Randall Smith is one of the most intelligent, picky, and concerned about tone type company owners I've ever delt with.

[67mike]

People need to buy vintage or obscure and cannot possible play the amp that can be had in a shop down the street......to be accepted by the cool kids.

[rummy]

Who the F cares if an amp is considered "boutique?" Considered by who? What is boutique?
Just play.

[SeanMc]

Because you can buy them new at GC... Kinda the definition of "not boutique".

[Billion81]

Because you can buy them new at GC... Kinda the definition of "not boutique".

So where I buy an amp determines it's boutique(ness)?

Good to know.:huh

[SeanMc]

So where I buy an amp determines it's boutique(ness)?

Good to know.:huh

Well, it actually does... By definition.

bou·tique   [boo-teek]
noun
1. a small shop or a small specialty department within a larger store, especially one that sells fashionable clothes and accessories or a special selection of other merchandise.
2. any small, exclusive business offering customized service: Our advertising is handled by a new Madison Avenue boutique.
3. Informal . a small business, department, etc., specializing in one aspect of a larger industry: one of Wall Street's leading research boutiques.

[kodou]

You people make me want to give up playing guitar.

[teledude55]

Boutique to me means one guy building one amp, by hand...so the PCB seems to go with more efficient production methods and doesn't hold up the same quality as a handwired amp.

[ken374]

I have read this whole thread and I think everythings been debated and covered already. Everything now will just be Mesa lovers or haters. I personally love most Mesa amps. So much punch, clarity, saturation and definition in their tone. Boutique or not who cares now. I'm 100% sure Randall Smith has had so many oppurtunities to "cheap out", sell out, manufacture outside US, or buy other companies and have an empire of multiple amp companies... But Randall Smith has not.

I wonder how many "Boutique" amp builders out there now that "if" given or had as much success as Randall Smith, if they would stay as true and humble as far as truely making great amps and still trying to make more amp magic as Randall Smith still tries to do every year.

I used to built a component for Mesa Boogie years ago along with many other amp manufactures and I can honestly say Randall Smith is one of the most intelligent, picky, and concerned about tone type company owners I've ever delt with.
Mr Smith worked on old amps back in the 60's when he was a tech. He said he prefers pcb the best because he can produce the same sounding amp over and over opposed to turret handwired boards because the amps were inconstant sounding form one another. One would sound good and the same other 3 were not so good. Even wire length can effect tone from what he said so how a amp feels when you hit the strings if it feels tight or too loose they would make it right, thats why boogie goes to great lengths for tone:)maybe todays newer amps are different who knows

[brianr0131]

Boutique to me means one guy building one amp, by hand...so the PCB seems to go with more efficient production methods and doesn't hold up the same quality as a handwired amp.

Fuchs uses pcb on some models. I don't think anyone would argue Andy's boutique-ness.

[guitarrhinoceros]

While Mesa's aren't considered boutique, they are some of the finest amps I've used. Very versatile, very functional, very 3-D sounding. For me, my Mesa Royal Atlantic presents all that I need in a electric guitar amp. I'm sure there are great boutiques out there, just as there as some great amps being made from big name vendors. Play them all (or as many as you can find) and play them loud. When you find your sound, you'll know (unless you spend too much time on TGP and succumb to dreaded GAS).

I'm really into Mesa/Boogie. They are the best of both worlds. They are made with the quality and attention to detail one would find with boutiques, all while maintaining the availability and customer service of a mainstream company.

I. Love. Mesa.

[somedude]

Boutique to me means one guy building one amp, by hand...so the PCB seems to go with more efficient production methods and doesn't hold up the same quality as a handwired amp.

Boutique to me means a place where women buy crap I could care less about.

[Onioner]

Boutique to me means a place where women buy crap I could care less about.

I don't think that's the sort of boutique we're talking about, though i do agree with your conclusion.

[mockoman]

Because their factory is 97 Bazillion square foots...

http://www.russomusic.com/images/mesa/Mesa-Building-2.jpg

Here is the break room...

http://www.russomusic.com/images/mesa/Mesa-Building.jpg

Employees parking lot...

http://brucefong.files.wordpress.com/2011/06/parking-lot.jpg


Office space...

http://www.archetype-intl.com/images/PacifiCare/PacifiCare%20Bldg.jpg

[teemuk]

...And because boutique amps like this are $1500 better.
http://spinoo.free.fr/projetG5/Images%20Amplis/Bruno/Bruno%20Cowtipper.jpg
:sarcasm

[mockoman]

:sarcasm

Yeah,me too.

[KiwiJoe]

I have read this whole thread and I think everythings been debated and covered already. Everything now will just be Mesa lovers or haters. I personally love most Mesa amps. So much punch, clarity, saturation and definition in their tone. Boutique or not who cares now. I'm 100% sure Randall Smith has had so many oppurtunities to "cheap out", sell out, manufacture outside US, or buy other companies and have an empire of multiple amp companies... But Randall Smith has not.

I wonder how many "Boutique" amp builders out there now that "if" given or had as much success as Randall Smith, if they would stay as true and humble as far as truely making great amps and still trying to make more amp magic as Randall Smith still tries to do every year.

I used to built a component for Mesa Boogie years ago along with many other amp manufactures and I can honestly say Randall Smith is one of the most intelligent, picky, and concerned about tone type company owners I've ever delt with.

Who the F cares if an amp is considered "boutique?" Considered by who? What is boutique?
Just play.

:agree Both well said. Thank you.

[dascher]

[Quote/]Not to sound mean or anything, but I honestly can't think of a great rocking band that played fender [\QUOTE]


Guess you never heard of The Beatles, huh? Their later work was all Fender.

:facepalm

And of course Jerry Garcia is famous for playing a Twin. He also played Mesa at some points but the Twin is his most copied sound.

[forum_crawler]

Actually I would be interested to see if there is a boutique out there that can make an amp like the roadster but with better build quality and better sound. Oh, and not have it cost $10K.

There are a bazillion boutiques with circuits based off Marshalls, Fenders (not sure why... you can dip poo in chocolate, it is still poo), VOX, etc, but I have yet to see a definitive Mesa "boutique" builder that does what Mesa does, but better.

I think that itself should be enough for the haters... I know it isn't.

[somedude]

And of course Jerry Garcia is famous for playing a Twin. He also played Mesa at some points but the Twin is his most copied sound.

Hendrix first album.

John Fogerty.

[forum_crawler]

Hendrix studio work.

I don't have any of his studio records, but have seen many videos of him playing live, and it was all Marshall.

The guy was such an incredible player. He sounded amazing despite playing fender guitars... I am sure he would have made any amp sound interesting. Even fenders.

[Dave_C]

Because they are now built like all other mass-produced amps on the market.

[somedude]

I don't have any of his studio records, but have seen many videos of him playing live, and it was all Marshall.

That's alright. I'm wrong either way. He used Fenders in the US prior to leaving for England but the album was recorded in England with Marshall's. I'm not enough of a Hendrix nerd to be sure what singles may have been prior to his trip overseas.

It was his speakers that he switched between albums. My apologies.

[Adambomb]

Because they are now built like all other mass-produced amps on the market.

Mesa is "Built like all other mass produced amps"... Not quite.

[somedude]

Mesa is "Built like all other mass produced amps"... Not quite.

Dave C hates Mesa yet has some kind of weird quirk that requires him to read and comment in every Mesa thread that pops up. I've learned to ignore him, although I'm starting to wonder if he's a closet Mesa lover that just won't admit it to himself.

[guitarrhinoceros]

Dave C hates Mesa yet has some kind of weird quirk that requires him to read and comment in every Mesa thread that pops up. I've learned to ignore him, although I'm starting to wonder if he's a closet Mesa lover that just won't admit it to himself.

:rotflmao:rotflmao:rotflmao

[Defendant]

And precisely why do we care?

Mesa make a bunch of great amps. Some define the sound of whole genres.

They make their stuff well and the gear lasts.

Personally I love some (Mk1, LSS, TA30, BA) and don't want to be around others (Mk4/5, Nomad, most rectos, maverick, express...). But they make a big range.

these days I roll with a custom plexi build and a Victoria but I used a mesa as my main amp for years and would happily do so again in future.

[sharpshooter]

I've always kinda wanted an original MK I, cane grill, with an altec,, but with most of the brand since then,,"Thou dost have, in a protruding manner, to many knobs and switches, to perceive the containment of honest sound".

[soundchaser59]

but with most of the brand since then,,"Thou dost have, in a protruding manner, to many knobs and switches, to perceive the containment of honest sound".

That is so lame as to not even deserve a rebuttal. :bonk

[bigdaddy7115]

:rotflmao:rotflmao:rotflmao:rotflmao:boxer:boxer:b oxer

[teemuk]

but I have yet to see a definitive Mesa "boutique" builder that does what Mesa does, but better.

Oh come on, there was a total craze to copy Mesa's amps in the early 1980's. ...and let's not even get started with the bazillion boutique companies out there that manufacture "modern hi-gain" -style amps.

[Dave_C]

Mesa is "Built like all other mass produced amps"... Not quite.

Modern Mesas are definitely built just like all other mass-produced amps from Fender, Marshall, Vox, Orange, etc. They use PCB-mounted tubes, jacks, pots and switches and press-fit ribbon cable connectors, not to mention notoriously unreliable components, such as LDRs, which have given many customers and dealers so much grief that they will no longer carry the brand. There are no discerning construction/quality differences which separate Mesa from any other mass-produced guitar amplifier. This is why they are no longer considered "boutique" by most folks. This is neither good not bad. It's just a statement of fact. Anyone can crack one open and take a look for themselves.

[Adambomb]

Modern Mesas are definitely built just like all other mass-produced amps from Fender, Marshall, Vox, Orange, etc. They use PCB-mounted tubes, jacks, pots and switches and press-fit ribbon cable connectors, not to mention notoriously unreliable components, such as LDRs, which have given many customers and dealers so much grief that they will no longer carry the brand. There are no discerning construction/quality differences which separate Mesa from any other mass-produced guitar amplifier. This is why they are no longer considered "boutique" by most folks. This is neither good not bad. It's just a statement of fact. Anyone can crack one open and take a look for themselves.


Lol. Sure yea their unreliable alright. Yep everything's mounted to PCB board....... Wrong again.

[guitarrhinoceros]

Modern Mesas are definitely built just like all other mass-produced amps from Fender, Marshall, Vox, Orange, etc. They use PCB-mounted tubes, jacks, pots and switches and press-fit ribbon cable connectors, not to mention notoriously unreliable components, such as LDRs, which have given many customers and dealers so much grief that they will no longer carry the brand. There are no discerning construction/quality differences which separate Mesa from any other mass-produced guitar amplifier. This is why they are no longer considered "boutique" by most folks. This is neither good not bad. It's just a statement of fact. Anyone can crack one open and take a look for themselves.

:BluesBros Yeah, Mesa thinks they are so sneaky coming off like they're a cut above the rest. :rotflmao

Aren't Soldano's, Diezel's, and Bogner's created using similar PCB mounting techniques as Mesa employs? Regardless, considering Mesa's customer service and generous warranty, I doubt they are putting out amps that are going to be problematic. They'd have such a class action lawsuit against them if their amps were so faulty and they weren't doing anything to correct such issues. I think you are exaggerating Mesa's culpability in creating problematic amps. Mesa prints a creed in all their manuals discussing their commitment to putting out quality products, all while thanking customers for their patronage. I doubt their amps are using parts that are "notoriously unreliable."

[guitarrhinoceros]

Modern Mesas are definitely built just like all other mass-produced amps from Fender, Marshall, Vox, Orange, etc. They use PCB-mounted tubes, jacks, pots and switches and press-fit ribbon cable connectors, not to mention notoriously unreliable components, such as LDRs, which have given many customers and dealers so much grief that they will no longer carry the brand. There are no discerning construction/quality differences which separate Mesa from any other mass-produced guitar amplifier. This is why they are no longer considered "boutique" by most folks. This is neither good not bad. It's just a statement of fact. Anyone can crack one open and take a look for themselves.

Dude, are you ignorant? You wrote that Mesa uses unreliable components -- then you post at the end of your statement that Mesa's build techniques aren't good or bad. You begged the question which is it? I mean, aren't you stating (without any empirical evidence, mind you) that Mesa is using unreliable components in their amps? If your statements are true and you know what you are talking about, wouldn't such usage of inferior components be characterized as being undeniably a bad thing?

Personally, I think you just don't like Mesa's amps -- which is completely okay. You just don't need to be an oversimplifying troll about it. :boxer

[guitarrhinoceros]

Modern Mesas are definitely built just like all other mass-produced amps from Fender, Marshall, Vox, Orange, etc. They use PCB-mounted tubes, jacks, pots and switches and press-fit ribbon cable connectors, not to mention notoriously unreliable components, such as LDRs, which have given many customers and dealers so much grief that they will no longer carry the brand. There are no discerning construction/quality differences which separate Mesa from any other mass-produced guitar amplifier. This is why they are no longer considered "boutique" by most folks. This is neither good not bad. It's just a statement of fact. Anyone can crack one open and take a look for themselves.

http://t0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcRvx6AvBUcaqvRIB3s8bVM7TnCrwkgxm p8OHezusSW6ZMI4oIubaA

I didn't realize how much you resembled Carrot Top. All I can say is WOW. :(

[Bikedude]

I have a Mark V Combo, and a Tone King Metro, both are PCB board wired, so I guess that makes my MV a "booteek" amp then. BTW, Mesa are the only people that ever called me and thanked me for buying one of thery're amps, my late LSC Combo.

[forum_crawler]

Oh come on, there was a total craze to copy Mesa's amps in the early 1980's. ...and let's not even get started with the bazillion boutique companies out there that manufacture "modern hi-gain" -style amps.

Examples?

[Dave_C]

Aren't Soldano's, Diezel's, and Bogner's created using similar PCB mounting techniques as Mesa employs?

I dunno, you tell me.

Mesa Mark V:
http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y43/maz_master/mmv.jpg

Fender SuperSonic:
http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y43/maz_master/FenderSuperSonic.jpg

Soldano SLO100:
http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y43/maz_master/soldano.jpg

As for "empirical" evidence, a good friend who carried Mesa in his store and played them for many years and did some high volumes through his store stopped both due to reliability and service issues. The biggest issues, apparently, were LDRs used for switching (a cheap alternative to relays) but there were many others.

Its' not good or bad because most modern mass-produced amps are made this way and the customer goes in knowing that. It is what it is. It's a product for a market. And, lastly, I love the tone of several Mesa amp models, including the Blue Angel, T-Verb, Electro Dyne and Mark IIC+...and...I'd never rule out the possibility of owning one someday, as needs/wants dictate.

[Abe]

Examples?

Diezel, Engl, Bogner?

[forum_crawler]

Diezel, Engl, Bogner?

Examples of high gain amps: yes.
Examples of Mesa-flavoured high gain amps, or maps claiming to be better at the Mesa game than Mesa amps: no.

[zenas]

13 pages ? Really ? They're just another mass produced amp like all the big names are making these days.

[teemuk]

Examples?

You just want an answer you want to hear. The truth is, there are many Mesa-inspired designs out there. Some definitely aimed to out Mesa the Mesas.

Mesa/Boogie's still going to be on the top because it's a widely known brand that has introduced influental products and continues to do so. A brand with very deep legacy in the scene. Like Marshall. Why is not Marshall boutique? For same reasons Mesa amps are not.

[forum_crawler]

You just want an answer you want to hear. The truth is, there are many Mesa-inspired designs out there. Some definitely aimed to out Mesa the Mesas.

Mesa/Boogie's still going to be on the top because it's a widely known brand that has introduced influental products and continues to do so. A brand with very deep legacy in the scene. Like Marshall. Why is not Marshall boutique? For same reasons Mesa amps are not.

So you can't name one? hm...:bonk

[JoeB63]

Slightly off-topic, but can anyone help me find a hand-wired LCD flat-screen TV? I'm shopping for one, but everything seems to be PCB. I don't want a PCB one because I'm planning on watching it every day, and I'm concerned about reliability. I'm pretty sure one that's been wired by hand will be more reliable than one built by a robot in some factory. I'm willing to pay more.

Thanks,
Joe

[SeanMc]

Slightly off-topic, but can anyone help me find a hand-wired LCD flat-screen TV? I'm shopping for one, but everything seems to be PCB. I don't a PCB one because I'm planning on watching it every day, and I'm concerned about reliability. I'm pretty sure one that's been wired by hand will be more reliable than one built by a robot in some factory. I'm willing pay more.

Thanks,
Joe

As soon you find your TV be sure to stock up on Lean Cuisine and Diet Coke from your local Walmart. Buying the cheapest mass-produced products from the large retailers is the healthiest option and in everyone's best interest. Fresh food prepared by actual chefs served with fine wine causes obesity and is soooo overrated, and overpriced.

One hyperbole begets another... :wave

[scolfax]

Slightly off-topic, but can anyone help me find a hand-wired LCD flat-screen TV? I'm shopping for one, but everything seems to be PCB. I don't a PCB one because I'm planning on watching it every day, and I'm concerned about reliability. I'm pretty sure one that's been wired by hand will be more reliable than one built by a robot in some factory. I'm willing pay more.

Thanks,
Joe

Priceless

[JoeB63]

As soon you find your TV be sure to stock up on Lean Cuisine and Diet Coke from your local Walmart. Buying the cheapest mass-produced products from the large retailers is the healthiest option and in everyone's best interest. Fresh food prepared by actual chefs served with fine wine causes obesity and is soooo overrated, and overpriced.

One hyperbole begets another... :wave

Well, my analogy was good, and yours was not. I was talking about electronic devices, like, say, AMPS. And as we all know, PCB doesn't mean low quality, it just means PCB. Just as hand-wired doesn't mean high quality. You should see some of my lovely soldering work. And PCB does not = Walmart or Diet Coke.

Some things are better when hand-made, like chef-prepared food, but would you want hand-made tires on your car? So tell me exactly why we are hung up on hand-wired amps?

I have nothing against them in principle. I have 3 real amps, two are hand-wired boutique amps, and one (the one I like the best) is Bogner PCB. However, the Bogner cost more than either of the 2 hand-wired amps. You really can't generalize here.

[SeanMc]

For someone that views a guitar amp as a commodity appliance, then your point has some logical merit to it.

For someone that views a guitar amp as an instrument that is a work of art from an expert craftsman, then your point doesn't really have merit.

My preferences are toward craftsmanship and artistic pleasures; not so much towards commodity appliances and name-brands from mass retailers.

So the analogy does hold up... And it's not about PCBs, but rather the notion of a musical instrument "wired by hand by a human" as opposed to some arbitrary appliance "built by robots in some factory".

You choose to poke sarcastic fun at my tastes, I'm allowed to respond in kind.

[JoeB63]

You choose to poke sarcastic fun at my tastes, I'm allowed to respond in kind.

Sure you are! :aok

[Dave_C]

13 pages ? Really ? They're just another mass produced amp like all the big names are making these days.

:agree

[Dave_C]

So you can't name one? hm...:bonk

All stacked gain, master volume amps that came after Mesa, probably even Dumble, were inspired by Mesa.

[Billion81]

Slightly off-topic, but can anyone help me find a hand-wired LCD flat-screen TV? I'm shopping for one, but everything seems to be PCB. I don't a PCB one because I'm planning on watching it every day, and I'm concerned about reliability. I'm pretty sure one that's been wired by hand will be more reliable than one built by a robot in some factory. I'm willing pay more.

Thanks,
Joe

awesome!!

[somedude]

I dunno, you tell me.

You tell me...

Mesa Mark V:
http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y43/maz_master/mmv.jpg

Bogner Ecstasy
http://www.klangforschungszentrum.de/100B/guts_L.jpg

Diezel Einstein
http://i.imgur.com/mP0I2.jpg

Mark V
http://i258.photobucket.com/albums/hh269/leadfootdriver/Mark%20V/IMG_1532.jpg

Soldano SLO100:
http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y43/maz_master/soldano.jpg

Mesa Dual Rectifier from the same time period

http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8187/8084152592_e263cf5b1f_b.jpg

Soldano Avenger from this time period
http://www.captainbob.de/publicuse/Soldano%20Avenger.jpg

Mesa Dual Rectifier also from this time period
http://www.captainbob.de/publicuse/mesa_dualrectifier.jpg



As for "empirical" evidence, a good friend who carried Mesa in his store and played them for many years and did some high volumes through his store stopped both due to reliability and service issues. The biggest issues, apparently, were LDRs used for switching (a cheap alternative to relays) but there were many others.


Probably why they stopped using LDRs around the turn of the century.

[somedude]

You just want an answer you want to hear. The truth is, there are many Mesa-inspired designs out there. Some definitely aimed to out Mesa the Mesas.

+1.

Just because people aren't producing straight up Mesa clones doesn't mean they weren't using Mesa designs.

That... and Randall patents everything he does specifically to make it difficult for people to copy him.

[bellyrubs]

I think we can all agree on where MESA/boogie stands a company, both from their humble repair shops origins to their current worldwide status as a maker and innovator in the realm of high-end (and high-gain) guitar amps.

I think you all are confused by the definition of the word 'boutique', and its meaning does not appear to be the same to everyone.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boutique

http://www.strategicdc.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/12/inconceivable.jpg

To me, it means that the company works with the client to provide a service or product, that no one else can provide to the client's specifications, something that is not able to be purchased off the shelf or mass produced (hence the term bespoke, which is generally reserved for custom apparel.)

Eventually, the 'hipster time-cycle' thing takes effect and the once-boutique item becomes mass produced and available to just about anyone. This would be the current state of MESA/boogie.



j4XT-l-_3y0

[noah76]

They are not "Boutique" because when you pay for one you don't have to wait years to maybe get it . Or you end up in a pyramid scheme (MC looking at you) with a drug addict. But the true "Boutique" guys will send your amp back after 5 years of hunting the them down in 100 pieces with no care about it.(MC looking at you again.)

[forum_crawler]

+1.

Just because people aren't producing straight up Mesa clones doesn't mean they weren't using Mesa designs.

That... and Randall patents everything he does specifically to make it difficult for people to copy him.

I am still waiting to be given a link, a name or something to investigate who makes a better sounding Mark than Mesa, or a better sounding Rectifier than Mesa.

Sure there are many high gain amp manufacturers out there, but I don't think I could confuse a VH4, an Uberschall, or a Fireball 100 for a Rectifier or a Mark.

Boutique or not, Mesas do "Mesas" better than anyone, and are not confused with any other manufacturer. Something that Marshalls, VOX, Fenders, and many other manufactures can't claim. Even those so called boutiques who are not shy about revealing what circuit they are copying.

People may not like Mesas, nor Randall, but what he does, he does better than anyone else.

[ken374]

http://i653.photobucket.com/albums/uu255/ken3611/487121_10151126763717685_921646082_n.jpg (http://<a href=)


:) custom shop..... oh!

[Dave_C]

You tell me...

Bogner Ecstasy

Diezel Einstein

Mark V

Mesa Dual Rectifier from the same time period
[/IMG]

Soldano Avenger from this time period

Mesa Dual Rectifier also from this time period

Probably why they stopped using LDRs around the turn of the century.

I have owned several Bogners and an Engl and they are also built very much like mass-produced Fenders and Marshall's, no doubt! Diesel used to be built in a more "boutique" fashion but have now gone the way of Mesa, Bogner, Engl, etc. my Bogners were the most unreliable amps I've ever owned!

However, the Mesa pics you show above still use mass-produced techniques - PCB mounted tubes, ribbon cables, slip-on connectors vs soldered connectors, some PCB-mounted jacks, switches, etc.

Soldano is the only high quality PCB-based guitar amplifier in the whole bunch. Fuchs and THD are examples of high quality PCB. They basically are the same as PTP except all the small components are connected together with heavy duty PCB. Tubes, jacks, switches, pots are mounted on the chassis and soldered via flying leads to everything else. Mesa, Bogner, Diezel, Engl do not use those high quality techniques universally.

[somedude]

I am still waiting to be given a link, a name or something to investigate who makes a better sounding Mark than Mesa, or a better sounding Rectifier than Mesa.

If you're looking for a straight up clone you're not going to see it. Randall patents everything specifically to prevent it and litigates anyone who tries. Even if someone made a clone they couldn't sell it in the USA (see: Bugera Magician and Trirec).

With those limitations against outright copies in mind others have been using Randalls ideas for years. Cascading gain preamps?

The SLO design includes ideas Soldano got from the Mark series of amps. In turn, the Recto was designed using a SLO style preamp. Ubershall was designed using a Recto as a reference.

People may not like Mesas, nor Randall, but what he does, he does better than anyone else.

Won't argue that point. :)

[JB6464]

I will never own another amp with PCB mounted output tube sockets.
When shit hits the fan in that area , it takes alot of other stuff on the PCB with it.

[leftty]

And this proves what? That americans make beter solder joints? Look the bottom like is wire is wire, solder joints are solder joints, it makes no differance. Too many people put some kind extra value on things like hand build vs machine build when the only real differance is it cost 3x as much and takes longer for a real person to put things together then it does a machine and in the end they will both sound the same.


You tell me...



Bogner Ecstasy
http://www.klangforschungszentrum.de/100B/guts_L.jpg

Diezel Einstein
http://i.imgur.com/mP0I2.jpg

Mark V
http://i258.photobucket.com/albums/hh269/leadfootdriver/Mark%20V/IMG_1532.jpg



Mesa Dual Rectifier from the same time period

http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8187/8084152592_e263cf5b1f_b.jpg

Soldano Avenger from this time period
http://www.captainbob.de/publicuse/Soldano%20Avenger.jpg

Mesa Dual Rectifier also from this time period
http://www.captainbob.de/publicuse/mesa_dualrectifier.jpg





Probably why they stopped using LDRs around the turn of the century.

[soundchaser59]

So tell me exactly why we are hung up on hand-wired amps?
Because I owned a couple of Frenzel amps and they are everything Jim Frenzel claims they are. Can't wait to get another! :JAM

To me, it means that the company works with the client to provide a service or product, that no one else can provide to the client's specifications, something that is not able to be purchased off the shelf or mass produced

Eventually, the 'hipster time-cycle' thing takes effect and the once-boutique item becomes mass produced and available to just about anyone. This would be the current state of MESA/boogie.

To me it means that the first time I got access to a Mesa amp I realized it was several miles better than any other amp I had ever had or had available to me in my town, miles beyond the profit margin Peaveys and Line 6's that the retailers hope will be their bread and butter. Compared to where I've been, Mesa amps are toadly booteek!

Soldano SLO100:
http://www.soundchasermusic.com/demos/soldanoslo100.jpg


Glad you posted this pic. Now I understand why they cost $5000 dollars! :bow

[somedude]

I have owned several Bogners and an Engl and they are also built very much like mass-produced Fenders and Marshall's, no doubt! Diesel used to be built in a more "boutique" fashion but have now gone the way of Mesa, Bogner, Engl, etc. my Bogners were the most unreliable amps I've ever owned!

I only brought them up because a lot of people consider them boutique and call Mesa down for being mass produced.

Soldano is the only high quality PCB-based guitar amplifier in the whole bunch.

I know you have a dislike for LDRs because you feel manufacturers choose them because they're cheap... but they also switch silently. It's one of the reasons that people desire the LDR equipped 2 channel Rectos over the relays in the later Rectos.

Should you happen across one of the amps that developed bad LDRs Mesa will still repair it for free, despite the bad batch of LDRs being from 15 years back.


Fuchs and THD are examples of high quality PCB. They basically are the same as PTP except all the small components are connected together with heavy duty PCB. Tubes, jacks, switches, pots are mounted on the chassis and soldered via flying leads to everything else. Mesa, Bogner, Diezel, Engl do not use those high quality techniques universally.

The trade off is that neither the Fuchs or the THD sound like a Mesa.

[somedude]

And this proves what? That americans make beter solder joints? Look the bottom like is wire is wire, solder joints are solder joints, it makes no differance. Too many people put some kind extra value on things like hand build vs machine build when the only real differance is it cost 3x as much and takes longer for a real person to put things together then it does a machine and in the end they will both sound the same.

All it proves is that people dump on Mesa for using mass production techniques while elevating other manufacturers who use the same techniques.

[jads57]

To me 2 things mater Tone and Reliability. And Mesa Boogie has both! That's why I've played them for over 30 years and continue to use them in the real gigging world.

[Dave_C]

I will never own another amp with PCB mounted output tube sockets.
When shit hits the fan in that area , it takes alot of other stuff on the PCB with it.

And, THAT is one of the biggest factors separating Mesa, Bogner, Engl, Diezel, Fryette from the high quality PCB guys like Soldano, Fuchs, THD, Suhr and the PTP leaders like Germino, Dr. Z, Allen, Metro. Matchless, Bad Cat, Etc. The latter two groups are more "boutique" (ie, highest quality possible) while the first group is typical mass-produced.

[somedude]

I'm just going to post these because I'm bored. Try not to read too much into it, it's just for entertainment purposes.


Mark I
http://www.charlie-heavner.com/Mesaboogie/Chassis1.jpg

Mark IIC+
http://spinoo.free.fr/projetG5/Images%20Amplis/Mesa%20MKIIC+.JPG

Mark III Red Stripe
http://i104.photobucket.com/albums/m197/screamingdaisy_album/Guitar%20Kit/Amplifiers/MkIIIChassis3.jpg

Mark IVB
http://www.lilypix.com/photos/data/14bfa6bb14875e45bba028a21ed38046/482_p55981.jpg

Mark V
http://i258.photobucket.com/albums/hh269/leadfootdriver/Mark%20V/IMG_1515.jpg

Original Recto
http://mesaboogie.com/news/wp-content/uploads/2010/06/origrecproto.jpg

2 Channel Recto
http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3476/3366474609_a4a78e2e3b_b.jpg

2 Channel Rack mount
http://www.theinside.net/misc/DRchassis.JPG

Tremoverb
http://i48.tinypic.com/2dbuiic.jpg

3 Channel Recto
http://www.captainbob.de/publicuse/mesa_dualrectifier.jpg

4 Channel Recto (Roadster)
http://i245.photobucket.com/albums/gg75/krankguitarist/Mesa%20Roadster/IMG_0377.jpg

4 Channel Recto (Road King)
http://www.tonymckenzie.com/Site/images/pimages/road_king_chassis_2010.jpg




And totally not Mesa, but always fun!

A VHT Deliverance
http://spinoo.free.fr/projetG5/Images%20Amplis/vht_deliverance6.jpg

[sharpshooter]

^ Somedude,, your post is priceless,,it just shows to go ya,,,

[scolfax]

Yeah, what the dillio with that one resistor up there?!

[Dr. Tweedbucket]

Was this already a topic before? Whoops, if it was a previous thread, all apologies.

Mesa, although they definitely sell a lot of amps per year, still operate with a relatively small crew. I went to the factory tour and it was incredibly amazing how small their factory was. And they didn't even work on Fridays. Crazy, right?


nah, he just didn't have anything useful to add :dunno

[Dr. Tweedbucket]

I'm just going to post these because I'm bored. Try not to read too much into it, it's just for entertainment purposes.


Mark I
http://www.charlie-heavner.com/Mesaboogie/Chassis1.jpg

Mark IIC+
http://spinoo.free.fr/projetG5/Images%20Amplis/Mesa%20MKIIC+.JPG

Mark III Red Stripe
http://i104.photobucket.com/albums/m197/screamingdaisy_album/Guitar%20Kit/Amplifiers/MkIIIChassis3.jpg

Mark IVB
http://www.lilypix.com/photos/data/14bfa6bb14875e45bba028a21ed38046/482_p55981.jpg

Mark V
http://i258.photobucket.com/albums/hh269/leadfootdriver/Mark%20V/IMG_1515.jpg

Original Recto
http://mesaboogie.com/news/wp-content/uploads/2010/06/origrecproto.jpg

2 Channel Recto
http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3476/3366474609_a4a78e2e3b_b.jpg

2 Channel Rack mount
http://www.theinside.net/misc/DRchassis.JPG

Tremoverb
http://i48.tinypic.com/2dbuiic.jpg

3 Channel Recto
http://www.captainbob.de/publicuse/mesa_dualrectifier.jpg

4 Channel Recto (Roadster)
http://i245.photobucket.com/albums/gg75/krankguitarist/Mesa%20Roadster/IMG_0377.jpg

4 Channel Recto (Road King)
http://www.tonymckenzie.com/Site/images/pimages/road_king_chassis_2010.jpg




And totally not Mesa, but always fun!

A VHT Deliverance
http://spinoo.free.fr/projetG5/Images%20Amplis/vht_deliverance6.jpg



That was beautiful man :cry:


*sniff*

[Dave_C]

EXCELLENT PICS! The two-channel Rectos and T-verb did it right! Now, those are high quality "boutique" builds!

I'm just going to post these because I'm bored. Try not to read too much into it, it's just for entertainment purposes.


Mark I
http://www.charlie-heavner.com/Mesaboogie/Chassis1.jpg

Mark IIC+
http://spinoo.free.fr/projetG5/Images%20Amplis/Mesa%20MKIIC+.JPG

Mark III Red Stripe
http://i104.photobucket.com/albums/m197/screamingdaisy_album/Guitar%20Kit/Amplifiers/MkIIIChassis3.jpg

Mark IVB
http://www.lilypix.com/photos/data/14bfa6bb14875e45bba028a21ed38046/482_p55981.jpg

Mark V
http://i258.photobucket.com/albums/hh269/leadfootdriver/Mark%20V/IMG_1515.jpg

Original Recto
http://mesaboogie.com/news/wp-content/uploads/2010/06/origrecproto.jpg

2 Channel Recto
http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3476/3366474609_a4a78e2e3b_b.jpg

2 Channel Rack mount
http://www.theinside.net/misc/DRchassis.JPG

Tremoverb
http://i48.tinypic.com/2dbuiic.jpg

3 Channel Recto
http://www.captainbob.de/publicuse/mesa_dualrectifier.jpg

4 Channel Recto (Roadster)
http://i245.photobucket.com/albums/gg75/krankguitarist/Mesa%20Roadster/IMG_0377.jpg

4 Channel Recto (Road King)
http://www.tonymckenzie.com/Site/images/pimages/road_king_chassis_2010.jpg




And totally not Mesa, but always fun!

A VHT Deliverance
http://spinoo.free.fr/projetG5/Images%20Amplis/vht_deliverance6.jpg

[somedude]

EXCELLENT PICS! The two-channel Rectos and T-verb did it right! Now, those are high quality "boutique" builds!

It's unfortunate that the latest ones with all the mass production methods sound better.

[teemuk]

http://mesaboogie.com/news/wp-content/uploads/2010/06/origrecproto.jpg

Wow, what a mess! I'm glad they don't make amps this "boutique" any more.

[ken374]

I see Alex lifeson has a Mark V in his rig:)

[Sirloin]

Wow, what a mess! I'm glad they don't make amps this "boutique" any more.

I'm guessing that was a prototype/test mule? I agree with Dave C, the two channel Recto's back in the day were well made. I like tube sockets to be chassis mounted.

[somedude]

It's the prototype. I added it because I thought it was cool.

[guitarrhinoceros]

I see Alex lifeson has a Mark V in his rig:)

What a loser! Why would he take the risk of having an amp with PCB board mounted tube sockets. Unbelivable! :rotflmao

[Rupe]

Cool pics!!! A few more people should quote that post so we can keep seeing them :bonk

[ken374]

What a loser! Why would he take the risk of having an amp with PCB board mounted tube sockets. Unbelivable! :rotflmao
that a joke or you?

[SG_Seth]

that a joke or you?

99.999% positive he's joking

[guitarrista#5]

People know me, I'm the guy who thinks everything costs too much. I own a a couple of boutique amps, a few mesas, and a couple of fenders. I like the amps that I have. I don´t think boutique necessarly means better quality all the time. On the other hand some mass produced amps are of poor quality. Each amp has to be judged on its own individual merits in relation to what the buyer is looking for. As far as I know, mesa boogie was the first boutique amp company in the beginning. The company has grown and evolved, but they still make good products. I think that is what is most important. I love their amps, not everybody does. There is no one amp company that can satisfy every guitar players taste amd perhaps there never will be.

[guitarrhinoceros]

99.999% positive he's joking

Yup, I was mocking the posts that came before that I felt were unfairly critical of Mesa. I love Mesa's. I've never had an issue with any of the ones I've rented, and never had an issue with my current Boogie, the Royal Atlantic. On the one hand, you've got guys that are positive that Mesa's are built with inferior parts that could be problematic. Then, on the other hand, you've got bands like Rush using Mesa's during their live gigs.

:rotflmao

[sdhnc123]

Yes,

Try a boss GE-7 with a Mesa, helps quite a bit.

Speedemon is correct. Use a GE-7 in the loop of the Recto. :agree :beer

Problems with Rectifier's "Modern" sound:
Fizzy highs that reduce clarity of what is being played.
If you cut the mids to try to make it heavy, it just reinforces the fizzy Recto sound.
If you leave the mids high, the fizz isn't as noticeable, but now the mids sound honky and annoying.

The goal is to get a sound that is MASSIVE LOWS + NO HONKY MIDS + SHARP ATTACK MIDS (upper mids) + TAME THE FIZZ. In other words, we are kind of making the Recto sound similar to a Diezel Herbert with midcut engaged.

This can be accomplished with a Boss GE-7. The GE-7 can make the Rectifier as heavy as Cannibal Corpse.

Set your GE-7 like this:
100 = -2db
200 = 0db
400 = -10db
800 = -5db
1.6 = -2db
3.2 = 0db
6.4 = -2db
Level = +2db

These EQ settings will make every channel in the amp sound better.
100 is cut because the power amp will fart out at band volumes. If you are just jamming and want to keep 100 higher, that is cool. But even a Triple Rectifier farts out with these EQ settings if you don't cut 100. Also, those freq aren't important at band volumes because the bass guitar takes over under 100.
Annoying lower mids are cut. If you don't want to cut so much, that is ok. But it is important that 800 is always 1/2 of what 400 is. If 400 is -12, 800 is -6. If 400 is -8, then 800 is -4.
Cutting 6.4 tames the fizz. There is still fizz, but it is balanced. No longer a swarm of bees.
Level is boosted to compensate for all the cuts everywhere else. It should be approx the same level with the GE-7 on and off.

Cabinet:
Use a closed-back cab loaded with Vintage 30s. I haven't used every speaker out there, but the Recto 412 will rip with these settings.

Preamp 12ax7:
I recommend 12ax7 that are higher gain. You will have more gain on tap. Once your EQ gets rid of that annoying fizz, you can crank the gain and without annoying fizz taking over (just sustain and heavy thick palm-mutes).
JJs have harder stiff mids with less highs. High gain JJs are good for me, but you should probably buy several and try them out to see what works for you. The "V1" preamp tube is the most important in shaping the sound.

Amp Knobs for "Modern" Mode on a 2 Channel Triple Rectifier:
It has been years since I owned a Rectifier, so forgive me if these settings are a bit off. But I'll do my best. You might need to tweak them a bit for the newer Rectifiers that have 3 channels. But the GE-7 is far more important in shaping the tone than the amp knobs.

BASS = 1 o'clock
MID = Noon or 1 o'clock
TREBLE = Turn it up just until the point where it makes the MID FREQ shift lower. But don't go any higher. (The frequency affected by the MID knob depends on where the Treble knob is set).
PRESENCE = Turn it up until it is bright, but no bee attack. You will adjust the presence after all other knobs and GE-7 are dialed in.

That is it. These settings are amazing for metal riffs. If you need more mids for your solos, just turn off the GE-7 and you have a mid boost.

[somedude]

Problems with Rectifier's "Modern" sound:
Fizzy highs that reduce clarity of what is being played.
If you cut the mids to try to make it heavy, it just reinforces the fizzy Recto sound.
If you leave the mids high, the fizz isn't as noticeable, but now the mids sound honky and annoying.

An easier method is to turn the tone knob on your guitar down until the fizz goes away. I usually run mine between 8 and 9.


BASS = 1 o'clock
MID = Noon or 1 o'clock
TREBLE = Turn it up just until the point where it makes the MID FREQ shift lower. But don't go any higher. (The frequency affected by the MID knob depends on where the Treble knob is set).
PRESENCE = Turn it up until it is bright, but no bee attack. You will adjust the presence after all other knobs and GE-7 are dialed in.

I'm quoting this because it's important. Most people don't seem to realize that the treble knob shapes the midrange response. Need more mids? Consider reducing the treble instead of increasing the mids.

That said, presence controls upper midrange punch and not the fizzy treble region. You can run the presence wide open and it'll turn the Recto into a monster without increasing the fizz.

[guitarvc]

I've owned many, and even built a few myself. Currently I have a Mesa Lonestar Special and I would put that up against any amp out today...especially for the money. I like Bogners and Soldanos a bit better tonally, but the mesa line is in the same class, just voiced differently. Quality of build is pretty much the same.

[Bikedude]

If the Mesa MV is good enough for Alex Lifeson, i guess my MV Combo will do for me, and it's built like a friggin TANK! Of course A.L. also use an Axe FX II, but I'm only on a HD500 presently.

[Dave_C]

It's unfortunate that the latest ones with all the mass production methods sound better.

Well, the new stuff is hit or miss. It was the old Rectos that established an entire genre, although I don't care for that tone myself and don't know how they actually held up in the field. The T-Verb is also one of the best sounding amps they ever made, as many Mesa aficionados will attest. Personally, I went through three Road Kings which were absolute shite but have heard and played Electro-Dynes which sounded unbelievably good...although never had the chance to see if they'd hold up over time. So, tone, as always is subjective. What is less subjective is construction technique, component quality and failure rate.

You can obviously still push electrons around with modern mass production builds and it's still circuit architecture and component values which primarily determine what an amp will sound like. That's no mystery to anyone! Question is, will the amp hold up in the field and stand the test of time? Unfortunately, the fact is that modern mass production techniques and associated cost reduction efforts increase the likelihood of premature failure and unreliability in units exposed to environmental hazards and even just time itself. And, the modern, mass-produced Mesas are very similar to other mass-produced amps in that regard.

[Dave_C]

An easier method is to turn the tone knob on your guitar down until the fizz goes away. I usually run mine between 8 and 9.



I'm quoting this because it's important. Most people don't seem to realize that the treble knob shapes the midrange response. Need more mids? Consider reducing the treble instead of increasing the mids.

That said, presence controls upper midrange punch and not the fizzy treble region. You can run the presence wide open and it'll turn the Recto into a monster without increasing the fizz.

Or, you could use an amp which inherently doesn't have that fizz and doesn't require any special outboard gear, dialing techniques or guitar tone rolls to get rid of it. I haven't heard it in the Electro Dyne, so Mesa is capable of building amps that don't have it.

[somedude]

You can obviously still push electrons around with modern mass production builds and it's still circuit architecture and component values which primarily determine what an amp will sound like. That's no mystery to anyone! Question is, will the amp hold up in the field and stand the test of time? Unfortunately, the fact is that modern mass production techniques and associated cost reduction efforts increase the likelihood of premature failure and unreliability in units exposed to environmental hazards and even just time itself. And, the modern, mass-produced Mesas are very similar to other mass-produced amps in that regard.

The construction methods in high reliability applications have evolved a lot in the last 60 years.

[somedude]

Or, you could use an amp which inherently doesn't have that fizz and doesn't require any special outboard gear, dialing techniques or guitar tone rolls to get rid of it. I haven't heard it in the Electro Dyne, so Mesa is capable of building amps that don't have it.

Or, I could use a Recto and dial it in for the sound I like.

It's not like it's rocket science....

[Faraday]

Perhaps an amp is no longer considered boutique when you see a dozen of them on the floor of any Guitar Center in the country, with four or five of them being played for hours any Saturday afternoon by packs of 14-year-olds dropped off for babysitting whose tone and technique consists of excruciatingly loud barrages of notes united by neither rhythm nor harmony. Some Mesa prices approach boutique but they seem to have the same distributor as Pokemon cards. That's not boutique, even if they are good amps.

[Dave_C]

Or, I could use a Recto and dial it in for the sound I like.

It's not like it's rocket science....

Well, sure, that's true, indeed. But, it just seems like some folks are jumping through hoops to try to get the amp to do things it doesn't do very easily or naturally by trying to filter out something undesirable that's inherently buried in the base signal. But, I'm sure many folks find other unique things in the tone they dig.

[Dave_C]

The construction methods in high reliability applications have evolved a lot in the last 60 years.

I know, I have circuits in orbit as we speak. But, Mesa doesn't build to anywhere near those standards and they probably don't need to. But, there are PCB-based amp builders, like Fuchs, Solbano and THD and hybrid PCB/PTP builders, like Glaswerks, who surpass Mesa quality and go to reasonable and marketabe lengths to approach MIL-SPEC, if not meet or exceed it in some areas. Those amps meet all criteria associated with high quality PCB amp design but Mesa does not, as is the case with many other amp companies, like Fender, Marshall, Peavey, Orange, etc. Are all these amps good enough to tour with? SURE, as long as you have a backup, which is good practice when using ANY amp!

So, in practice, it may not make all that much difference, except to the guy who wants additional peace of mind and/or who gigs a lot and hates dealing with repairs and/or who appreciates high quality and the tones they may not be able to find any other way.

But, can you push electrons around in a modern, mass-produced amp and still produce killer tone? Of course! Here's an excellent example of a very fine player doing just that! He's also a guy who doesn't let emotion get in the way of realizing the limitations of the gear he's using.

http://www.thegearpage.net/board/showpost.php?p=14117235&postcount=422

[SG_Seth]

Boutique means nothing. It's an absurdity. Who cares. Mesas are high quality. Quality is what should matter, not some ill defined standard of "boutique." The only "mass produced" element is the use of pcb which is arguably more reliable than its hand wired counterparts. Open up a modern Marshall, fender, vox, egnater or whatever and compare it to any Mesa build. No comparison. Not even close.

Good to see the usual Mesa bashers make an appearance. Now go talk about red plates. ;)

[BEMUSofNrthAmrca]

It's all just a matter of perception and trends.
Mesa is too mainstream for the Gearpage hipsters right now.
But music equipment here follows basically the same cycle as fashion.

http://qph.cf.quoracdn.net/main-qimg-8ca3f6b93a20790c99bec58572e39127

What a ill informed post. Please, quit trying.

[Adambomb]

Boutique means nothing. It's an absurdity. Who cares. Mesas are high quality. Quality is what should matter, not some ill defined standard of "boutique." The only "mass produced" element is the use of pcb which is arguably more reliable than its hand wired counterparts. Open up a modern Marshall, fender, vox, egnater or whatever and compare it to any Mesa build. No comparison. Not even close.

Good to see the usual Mesa bashers make an appearance. Now go talk about red plates. ;)

Exactly ^^^ . They are on their game, made and sound better than all the rest "mass produced" amps IMHO. I had a Greer amp at one time, all hand wired, boutique as hell, waited 5 months for it, and the sound was just "ok". Boutique sure as heck doesn't mean it sounds good.

[guitarrhinoceros]

What a ill informed post. Please, quit trying.

By the way -- your statement should have read, " ... AN ill informed ... ."

Perhaps you should quit trying as well. :facepalm

[guitarrhinoceros]

Boutique means nothing. It's an absurdity. Who cares. Mesas are high quality. Quality is what should matter, not some ill defined standard of "boutique." The only "mass produced" element is the use of pcb which is arguably more reliable than its hand wired counterparts. Open up a modern Marshall, fender, vox, egnater or whatever and compare it to any Mesa build. No comparison. Not even close.

Good to see the usual Mesa bashers make an appearance. Now go talk about red plates. ;)

Well said!

[BEMUSofNrthAmrca]

By the way -- your statement should have read, " ... AN ill informed ... ."

Perhaps you should quit trying as well. :facepalm

Wow, sure got me there. I'm so upset about my typo.

What happens if I edit my typo out?

The guy who posted the hipster cycle image still looks like a fool. You've got your priorities perfectly straight, huh?

Typo police. Out in full force. :mmm

[SeanMc]

The grammar and Mesa nazis must UNITE!

[riffmeister]

B-O-H-I-C-A

[soundchaser59]

The grammar and Mesa nazis must UNITE! Include the dyslexics, and UNTIE!

[ungarn]

No different between microbrewery and craft beer.
If you sell enough "quality" stuff...technically no longer a microbrewerey...but a craft brewer.

[guitarrhinoceros]

Wow, sure got me there. I'm so upset about my typo.

What happens if I edit my typo out?

The guy who posted the hipster cycle image still looks like a fool. You've got your priorities perfectly straight, huh?

Typo police. Out in full force. :mmm

:rotflmao

You are such a sore loser.

[SG_Seth]

No different between microbrewery and craft beer.
If you sell enough "quality" stuff...technically no longer a microbrewerey...but a craft brewer.

Great analogy.