How to know when its your time to leave the band?

[Schuyler Lane]

Well, this might be a lengthy read for some but here it goes.

Okay, close to 2 years ago i started playing with a friend who is another guitar player and started to sing. We played together for about 4-5 months and we decided to go ahead and get the other members for a band. Posted an add CL for a drummer, meet with a guy, he knew a bassist who lived 2 doors down and we were off. Played with those guys for 9-10 months, when i had enough. The drummer wasn't practicing in his free time and we were going no where, come to practice and play the same 15 songs week in and out. We did end up picking up another guitarist though I was getting frustrated and wasn't enjoying myself anymore and my "release" from everyday life was turning more into a chore. So I told them i was done and took my exit.

The band basicly disbanded after that and about 2 months later the same singer and myself decided we still wanted to play just without the drummer. So we called the other guys back up, the bassist didn't want to join without the drummer cause they were good friends and he didn't want to ruin that. The guitarist was in on the other hand. So we picked up a new drummer and bassist. Been playing with those guys for a while, when we start running into the same problem. Our drummer has some new life problem or drama everytime we talk to him and members are not playing in their free time, and we are stuck becaus we can't add new songs if people aren't going to learn them. Our bassist ended up leaving and we got our old bassist back.... I like the bassist a lot and he has great tone and feel. Problem with him is he uses band practice as an excuss to smoke pot. I dont have any issues with people smoking pot in general, but in my opinon do that stuff in your free time, band practice is for..... practicing.

Flash forward to this weekend, our drummer wanted us to play his sons 13th birthday party. We show up to set up on a 5' by 5' deck in a back yard that is 5' wide by 15' long :facepalm. Here we brought 2 4x12 cabs, our bassist brought his bass stack and we have 2 15" pa mains with 2 12" montiors. Can anyone say blow the windows out of the houses around you? Not to mention he was saying how big of a party its going to be. There were about 15 people there half of which sat inside while the other 7 watched us outside. We played about 7 or 8 songs and took a brake. While on our brake our bassist brought his trusty bag of weed and asked if anyone else wanted to join him. Our singer and other guitar player did. Now i don't consider myself a professional guitar player by any means, but i consider myself to have a professional attitude. Its one thing to smoke pot at practice, but to do it at a gig, no matter how small or big is unprofessional. They come back from their pot brake and we take stage again, and the singer is forgetting lyrics, guitar player is missing chords and bassist is screwing up to.

I left there with my head hung low. Like any band i feel when we show up to play and we are all firing on all cylinders i really think we could do well as a cover band in the town we are in, but im getting to a point of just being done again.

Im the person putting everything i have into this band, i pick the majority of the songs we play, ive fronted a lot of the cash for the pa stuff and i am always playing to try and make myself better. In my eyes the band is my first priority outside of taking care of my family. The other guys all other things going on, on other night, 3 of them have kids and twi play softball and the other is just busy guy in general and i have no problems with any of that and understand life happens, but how many practices in a row do you get to show up to saying sorry guys i haven't practiced the new songs we said were going to add cause i was to busy doing other stuff?

Anyway thats my rant. Thoughts and opinions are welcome.

[stevel]

It's time to leave the band.

Look, you're like me. You're not going to be happy until you're playing with people who have the same professional ideas you do.

Unfortunately, that won't happen easily.

To get pro players, you're going to have to pay them.

I've tried and I've tried and I've tried to play with people with a professional attitude. But unless you're paying them out of your own pocket and can control who stays and who goes, you're going to have them messing around.

You *might* be able to find some reasonable people to play with but you're going to have to be able to put up with the disappointment until you find the right people (IF you can find the right people).

Good Luck,
Steve

[Rockledge]

My answer to this would be "what do you want your reputation to be" because, unfair as it is, you yourself will benefit or deficit from a bands reputation you are with. If they do stupid things, you are likely to carry the image of those things with you in spite of the fact you may not be part of them or condone them.

I have quit a lot of potentially lucrative and otherwise enjoyable situations just based on what being involved with it could have done to my personal image.
Picture yourself one day being out of a gig and looking for one, and being the guy that is known for having played with "those guys".
Do you want to be that guy?
That is the answer.

[msowl61]

Sounds like you know what you need to do. If you aren't having fun don't do it. Although I agree with Schuyler, it's going to be tough to get those kinds of guys to play with with no financial incentive, mostly because those kinds of guys are in the bands already making some dough. Maybe put out adds and try to audition for a more established/serious band.

[slyzspyz]

Its one thing to smoke pot at practice, but to do it at a gig, no matter how small or big is unprofessional

Sorry to break it to you but there are plenty of pro's that play baked, eg Flea used to (maybe still does?) at all the RHCP concerts. There's a time and place for everything, and grown men getting high at a 13 year old's birthday party is certainly not one of them, that would piss me off enough to not want to be associated with them

[tiktok]

Well, the time to leave varies, but I'd say you've reached that point with this crew.

[Rockledge]

Sorry to break it to you but there are plenty of pro's that play baked, eg Flea used to (maybe still does?) at all the RHCP concerts. There's a time and place for everything, and grown men getting high at a 13 year old's birthday party is certainly not one of them, that would piss me off enough to not want to be associated with them

That pros do it doesn't mean it is a wise thing to do. It just means that musicians, like everyone else, sometimes do stupid things.
But you are right about the appropriateness of the situation.
Again, not a reputation I would want following me. And believe me, what musicians do gets around.

[slyzspyz]

I didn't say it was wise, more commenting on the fact that if lots of pros do it, then look for a word other than "unprofessional"

[GCDEF]

To me the issue is that it was a kid's birthday party. I don't care what frame of mind my bandmates are in as long as they can still play, but somebody who needs to get high at a minor's birthday party is somebody I would choose not to associate with.

[Framus]

If you are good enough to front a three piece band why would you bother with the grief?
Get yourself a good bass player and drummer...leave those guys in the dust.

In the end it all comes down to money. You can keep a band together easily as long as it stays booked; otherwise the friendship and buddy route is a total waste of time and effort.

If you're going all original and got your sights set on being a millionaire then you better find some dead serious people who want the same thing you want and are willing to go the distance regardless of the short run setbacks and lack of serious cash flow.

You want fun ? Well, the fun part comes when you're booked solid a year in advance and the money rolls in every week. Serious musicians attract other serious musicians. You will find no shortage of good, serious musicians if the money is right.

Yep,that's like putting the cart in front of the horse for an unknown band starting out, but to me that's a mere technicality. If you're at a talent level to hang with serious players who see music as a business that generates money I doubt the kind of problems you descibe will surface.

I've played with raging alcoholics and brain fried stoners who were basket cases in their personal lives, but when it came time to step on stage they were as pro as the best I've ever played with and rarely made even a small mistake. I never get involved in personal issues unless it's giving the band a bad reputation...in those cases I would fire my own brother, which I did once, because he thought the band couldn't do without him. He got a big shock to say the least...I hardly missed him and his constant whining about having to learn new material every other week.

Somebody has got to be the official or unofficial leader and keep the band between the ditches and focused on building a solid following. If you're up to it and dedicated, be prepared to lose a lot of friends and piss off lots of people in the process.

In the end, it's either wishing you were in a fabulous band making serious money every week and still screwing around with losers who aren't going anywhere in the next couple of decades; or bite the bullet and make up your mind to run with the big dogs where the real money is.

Yep, it's a big leap and the clock is still ticking last time I looked.

Good luck bro...it's your life, not theirs.

[ecm1117]

Yeah, sounds like it's time to move on.

Maybe you should take a break and spend some time assessing what your musical goals are and what kind of musicians you'd like to play with. Once you have that figured out (the more defined the better), focus on finding new people that are in tune with what you have in mind.

[Baminated]

When it's consistently "no more fun" , &/or not fulfilling musically, &/or the personell is too high maintenance / tough to work with, &/or the musicians' skills are mediocre at best / not advancing, etc . ..

[guitarrhinoceros]

When do you know when it is time to leave? There is no one answer to this question. Just remember -- you get what you put it -- meaning, if you have open communication and are honest, and work hard to be successful, you will be. If you have no goals, don't communicate well, etc, then expect failure.

[TNJ]

DeNiro's character in 'Ronin', when asked what he learned in the CIA:

First Lesson: "If there's any doubt...there's no doubt.".
Second Lesson: "I dont remember." :)

S.
j

[mannish]

I am sure no professionals perform under the influence. That is not unprofessional.

I think you should join them and have a good time.

probably a good time to quit


Its one thing to smoke pot at practice, but to do it at a gig, no matter how small or big is unprofessional.

[Fendegibs]

This reminds me of Spinal Tap opening for the puppet show...so yeah, probably time to quit

[monty]

If these guys arent scratching that itch, leave.

[wrong_note_rod]

Im the person putting everything i have into this band, i pick the majority of the songs we play, ive fronted a lot of the cash for the pa stuff and i am always playing to try and make myself better..


Little Red Hen syndrome.

Yes, been there, done that, way too many times.

A friend of mine summed it up nicely: "Bands suck, because they are full of people, and people suck". Its the same everywhere you go.

I got old and eventually got tired of it all, what little patience I did have, wears out even quicker now... as you get older, the people you are playing with, have more and more "conflicts of interest" and it becomes more and more difficult to even get in the same room together for a rehearsal.

Thats what you have to look forward to. "Enjoy it" while you can.

[rccCrawler]

Sounds to me that this was a fun (ie: not making-money) band, which I gather from the fact that you never had more than 15 or so songs memorized (???).

There's nothing wrong with that, as long as it lines up with what you yourself want. In other words, this sounds to me like a situation where you want the band to be more serious than it was, but the other band members are happy with it the way it is.

Time to sit down and make sure everyone's goals are aligned. If they are not, that might mean quit and find something more in line with what you want, or it might mean find a second band that provides some of that, or whatever....

.... but you can't make people line up with your vision if a) they don't know what it is, and b) it is a voluntary, for fun activity.

I often get frustrated by my band mates perceived lack of effort, but then I realize that I'm in a hobby band, and that by definition means that virtually everything else in everyone's life comes first, and that the members by and large don't want to get too serious about it. Then I realize that THAT also describes me, and that the mis-alignment of priorities only happens to be short changing me at the moment, and last week it was me that couldn't make it, and ..... I chill out, relax, and enjoy it for what it is.

That's not to say that I don't wish it was more serious and we could play better gigs etc, but when I step back and put things in perspective, I realize that practically speaking I myself cannot commit to that. Being in a hobby band is what actually fits my life right now, and I can't force that to be anything other than what it is.

Now I have been in other 'hobby' bands that have different levels of seriousness - you can get in a serious hobby band - but it will always be dependant on the collective group's ability to commit time and effort to it, and will always rely on everyone's ability to understand the demands on the others time - you're all in the same boat, so it is probably not a spot where you can be super demanding.

Nothing wrong with saying 'I'd like to take this up a little notch' though, just be prepared that they might not want that.

[wrong_note_rod]

good point, about trying to make sure everyone is on the same page, in terms of ultimate goals for themselves.

One issue I've had with that, is that some people will say anything they think you want to hear, just to "get hired" or whatever.. and then later, as the band progresses, you find that they do indeed have an agenda... one that is sometimes diametrically opposed to what you said you wanted in the first place.

I've seen this happen all too often.

[rccCrawler]

good point, about trying to make sure everyone is on the same page, in terms of ultimate goals for themselves.

One issue I've had with that, is that some people will say anything they think you want to hear, just to "get hired" or whatever.. and then later, as the band progresses, you find that they do indeed have an agenda... one that is sometimes diametrically opposed to what you said you wanted in the first place.

I've seen this happen all too often.

Absolutely this happens all the time, I'm dealing with it right now. All you can do to guard against it is use your judgement and experience to 'sense' that it might happen, then look at the behaviour of the person in question. For example, a member that is 'willing to play whatever', but raises a flag by other statements they make, and then you track it, and they behaviour is that although they say they are willing to play anything, they only ever come prepared to play (having practiced on their own time their own part) songs that match their favourite genre etc.....

Happens all the time. Human nature, unfortunately. Again, how you deal with that in a pro vs hobby band changes considerably. Hopefully after having lived through it a few times you can ferret that out during the member selection process, but it is not easy, as all the threads surrounding these topics on this board attest.

[wrong_note_rod]

and they behaviour is that although they say they are willing to play anything, they only ever come prepared to play (having practiced on their own time their own part) songs that match their favourite genre etc......

I was in a band like that, a good cover band, that got great paying tuxedo gigs, as well as bar gigs. As soon as I joined, the bass player was immediately trying to figure out what songs I knew and could sing, and get me to learn a bunch of other ones... he was sick of playing the same songs.

the keyboard player was the exact opposite, I remember an argument between them where the keyboard player said "we do not have a crisis for new material".

It was between a rock and hard place for me. Eventually the bass player would use the last set, very late at night, to try and test "new" material, knowing that the keyboard player had not even bothered to try and learn anything, but maybe if we could tell him the chords, we could drag him along.

Some songs worked, anything that had a specific keyboard or horn line that he had to play, would fail.. because he'd never deliver it. He couldnt be bothered to learn. Sometimes he'd merely leave the stage.

It got pretty bad. The keyboard player really got upset when we started doing Led Zeps "rock and roll" even tho we were doing a good version and people liked it... he told me, "that song isnt a good song for a bar... but "Stayin Alive" is...." :nuts

[art_z]

who brings weed to a kids 13th birthday party?

[mannish]

Musicians

who brings weed to a kids 13th birthday party?

[octatonic]

I would have left 6 months ago, probably.

[russ]

When the displeasure is greater than the pleasure

[direwolf]

It's all about having a decent singer at the play for fun level. If you are the singer then put new projects together using craigs list. When one of the new projects take off, politely bid fare thee well to the band. Kinda like quitting your job or girlfriend, you should have somethging lined up.


Copy the new songs from ultimateguitar.com, paste them to MS word and fix the errors. Make sure each song fits a single sheet of paper by sizing the text and font.
Email them to your band, if they don't bother to print them and bring them to practice............then they are prolly to lazy to deal with.


Smokin and jokin is a part of rocknroll...goes with the territory. They need it to play the same songs over and over, but it also prevents them from learning new material.

[JonnyAlright]

It all comes down to one thing. Do the things you love about the band outweigh the things you hate? If the answer is no, then it's definitely time to leave.

(Edit: saw Russ beat me to the punch, but that really is the thing to ask yourself.)

[Schuyler Lane]

Thanks for all the input guys. You guys really hit the head on the nail. I talked to the singer today, told him my issues and he agreed with a lot of them and said he felt the sameway, we talked about the pot smoking and how inappropiate it was he also agreed and apolgized and said he really wasnt thinking but looking back on it now he totally sees where i am coming from and said it wont happend again. As of right now it looks like i am going to do something i havent and take the lead of this band (from a organizer stand point) going to cut the drummer and possible the bass player, unsure at this point. Going to brake the band down to myself, the other guitar play and the singer and start practicing acousticly and really get our selves down tight guitar playing and harmony wise, and get some new songs under our belt while we look for new members. I feel the 3 of us are the core of the band, and if we put our heads down and just work we can get a lot done and sound great. I will put adds up for other members when i feel the time is right, thing that sucks about my area is there isnt a whole lot of what you would call "serious" musicians. There are a lot of sit around and smoke pot guys who just want to "jam", so finding new members may not be an easy feat. however we will see how it goes. From here on out, if someone isnt pulling their weight just gonna let them go and not let it get to this point again.

Again thanks for all the input.

[Brooks]

at this point in my life, i play in several "hobby bands" just so i can
a) get to jam more often than i could w/ just one hobby band,
b) get to veto a proposed gig if i have plans or just don't want to gig every weekend (a no-no when doing it for $$),
c) get to play music i like w/ folks i like.

[24frets]

If it were me, I would have tendered my resignation at that party as soon as that joint was lit. If you can't be proud of what you do and who you do it with, it's time to square your shoulders up and leave. Your name, your reputation, is the ONLY thing you can take to the grave with you.

[DarthElvis]

who brings weed to a kids 13th birthday party?

The kids probably had better weed.

[Fishin'Musician]

who brings weed to a kids 13th birthday party?

Who PLAYS a kids 13th birthday party?

[StompBoxBlues]

DeNiro's character in 'Ronin', when asked what he learned in the CIA:

First Lesson: "If there's any doubt...there's no doubt.".
Second Lesson: "I dont remember." :)

S.
j

Whoosh...that was the sound of that blowing by over my head.
I don't get the meaning...meaning "there's no doubt you have to stop"?
Saw the film but don't remember much, except DeNiro was the pro and had to work with a few of the guys that were not. I'd assume it meant "you gotta remove all doubt or else abort"...but..


To the OP, yeah...a kids party, I think smoking was a dumb idea. Other than that, I think it is the same...lotsa the early jazz musicians smoked pot (and more) but they were professional musicians, playing stuff that was on the edge, new, etc, AND the pot back then wasn't near as strong as it is these days.

BUT...if a musician can play, high or otherwise (they can't, by your story so this doesn't apply to them) I don't care what he did. If he can't remember changes, doesn't practice, and messes up songs, then it's time to let them know. In this case, honestly...I'd first try to tell them nicely "Look...even straight you are forgetting how the song goes, missing parts, etc. so getting high makes it even worse".

I've had (it's always the ones that take weeks to have even practiced a simple new song...like pulling teeth...unless of course it is one they suggested) folks that reply "hey, we're doing this to have fun" to which I tend to say "yeah, about that, it isn't FUN for me to have to do completely predictable songs, arranged totally predictably, because we can't do any tricky changes, timing changes, intricate arrangements, because nobody wants to work and can't remember how the thing goes then" also "It's fun to play as a band, tight...it's not so much fun or inspiring to play with a band all over the place".

The WORST...for me anyway, is some musicians you like, and they CAN play (at least some things) but they just never "get around to it"...week after week "lets try that new song" "I haven't had a chance to..." or sometimes "I worked on it but don't have it "down" yet". They are good, and it is a PITA to find a replacement...it's almost like some gauge how much they can get away with.

One solution is, "well lets just work on it anyway"...and work on the parts one by one til they are tight. That isn't a lot of fun. Also you find that okay...the guy says he hasn't got it down, then lets do the intro, first verse. Must be some amount of the song that works?

It's frustrating. The key is not just one or two practices, if it feels like a chore instead of enjoyable, over time, then move on, change something.
To me the chore is doing predictable, pedestrian versions of everything, I like the idea of "turning on a dime", suddenly having a riff, played by all, etc. timing, solos that aren't just say a guitar playing, then going back to the comp, then 4 beats later singing starts but instead seamless. That kind of stuff takes engagement by the band.

The upside, I have noticed some folks are afraid of going outside their comfort zone, learning really new things, etc. (especially as we get older) but often with a little pushing, those thing become the persons FAVORITE song/riff/whatever when they get it down.

[gmann]

When it's no longer fun it's time to go.

[guitarmook]

Thanks for all the input guys. You guys really hit the head on the nail. I talked to the singer today, told him my issues and he agreed with a lot of them and said he felt the sameway, we talked about the pot smoking and how inappropiate it was he also agreed and apolgized and said he really wasnt thinking but looking back on it now he totally sees where i am coming from and said it wont happend again. As of right now it looks like i am going to do something i havent and take the lead of this band (from a organizer stand point) going to cut the drummer and possible the bass player, unsure at this point. Going to brake the band down to myself, the other guitar play and the singer and start practicing acousticly and really get our selves down tight guitar playing and harmony wise, and get some new songs under our belt while we look for new members. I feel the 3 of us are the core of the band, and if we put our heads down and just work we can get a lot done and sound great. I will put adds up for other members when i feel the time is right, thing that sucks about my area is there isnt a whole lot of what you would call "serious" musicians. There are a lot of sit around and smoke pot guys who just want to "jam", so finding new members may not be an easy feat. however we will see how it goes. From here on out, if someone isnt pulling their weight just gonna let them go and not let it get to this point again.

Again thanks for all the input.


Just a thought - if you can get your trio working well together, take it out and play some shows. It might be easier to attract a serious rhythm section if you can show them you have at least 2 sets of music, and at least a couple leads on future gigs. And (for me) playing out helps tighten things up more than playing in the garage ever will.

[V-Type]

You cant control others habits Ive learned.
I have No problem with a casual smoker or drinker in a band.
Its when it turns from casual too constant use age that is the red flag for me.
Playing at a bar or club Id have no problem with a "break" but at a kids B-day party and around relatives naw Id have too restrain.
If you are the band leader you could go over the do's and donts again or as suggested find some other like minded players and reform another band.

[Jon Silberman]

I don't mean to get corny but the best "why I'm leaving the band" song ever written, to me, is 3rd Week in the Chelsea by Jorma Kaukonen. It's sweet that Grace Slick joined him on vocals.


Sometimes I feel like I am leaving life behind
My hands are moving faster than the moving of my mind
Thoughts and generations of my dreams are yet unborn
I hope that I can find them before my moving gets too worn
If only I can live to see the dawning of the dawn.

So we go on living trying to make this image real
Straining every nerve not knowing what we really feel
Straining every nerve and making everybody see
What they read in Rolling Stone has really come to be
And trying to avoid the taste of that reality.

On an early New York morning a mirror in the hall
Showed to me a face I didn't know at all.
Lines were drawn around a pair of eyes that opened wide
When I looked into them I felt nothing left inside.
So I walked into a little room that whistled like a sigh.

As dawn's light closed around me you know my head was still in gear
Thinking thoughts of playing more and singing loud and clear
Trying to reach a friend somewhere and make that person smile
Maybe pull myself away from that old lonesome mile
That often comes to haunt me in the morning.

All my friends keep telling me it would be a shame
To break up such a grand success, tear apart a name.
But all I know is what I feel whenever I'm not playing
Emptiness ain't where it's at, neither's feeling pain.

Well now what is gonna happen now is anybody's guess
If I can't spend my time with love I guess I need a rest.
Time is getting late now and the sun is getting low
My body's getting tired of bearing another's load
And sunshine's waiting for me a little further down the road.

[Structo]

I went through those same things back when I was trying to start a band.
Nobody took it serious, drank, smoked and it usually ended in a volume war with another guitarist.
He had a half stack Marshall so he won.

Never got any songs down and we went through the musicians but never found anybody that actually wanted to gig.

We were a garage band that never left the garage......

[Frank Prince]

I think the most important thing in a band is that people are on the same page. Often, musicians will claim to be "serious" about a project, yet smoke pot and do other undisciplined things, or claim to be doing it "just for fun", yet get very bossy and angry and pushier than the average horrible boss.

Best way to see where people are coming from is note what they DO, not what they SAY.

I have seen the following general groups of behavior and motivations from different people in bands after watching bandmates for a while:

1. People who have rehearsal at their house, like to play the boss, expect others to have the same level of commitment even though they have to travel to unpaid rehearsals and learn tunes that they don't like that much. They are a lot of times more comfortable playing the tunes at home or at gigs where all their friends are present than at your average working gig where they may or may not know a lot of people.

2. People who like rehearsal b/c it gets them out of the house and away from the wife/kids, and is somewhat social.

3. Chronic drunks/pot smokers who mean well but can't help doing their substance of choice whether or not it gets in the way.

4. People who really just want to jam out and get bored with learning strict arrangements or cover tunes.

5. People who do the homework on tunes, come to rehearsal prepared, and consider unpaid rehearsal ONLY as a vehicle to get to the paying gigs.

6. A group of people who are committed to creating original music with each other.

I tend to be #5 in cover bands, so I REALLY don't get along with #1 people well. I also have a #4 side to me, but I prefer to do that live at jazz or blues jams.

#2 people are fine with me as long as they are doing the work, and I don't really have any time at all for the #3 folks. :puh

Haven't really done #6 with a dedicated group of people. That could be fun.

[Mark Barna]

You lost me when you implied it's OK to smoke pot during practice. Not. Drinking. Not. All depends what you want out of it. I auditioned for a country rock band by sitting in on their outdoor gig Saturday. I get an email Sunday that they want me. But the band drinks too much and mostly plays smoker bars. The gigs would be about an hour's drive, but I could've lived with that. They weren't good musicians but they sang pretty well. I could live with that. But the negatives outweighed It's all about choices. Some people feel they have to gig so badly they'll play with almost anybody. Me, I'd rather stay home.

[Rockledge]

When it's no longer fun it's time to go.


Not necessarily so. Some gigs just work and pay well even after they become boring.
It depends on why you are doing it. If you are doing it for fun, then yeah, when it is no longer fun.
But if you do it professionally, you do it until it quits paying or a better job comes along.

I have quit some very fun situations, simply because the band members hadn't a clue about doing business.

[Rod]

I've dealt with this type of behavior before.
There has to be rules and boundaries set.
I don't want musicians I'm playing with drinking any alcohol till the last set if at all because it messes with their music creativity.. but that's me.
I know that other musicians I've played with think that sometimes I can be a pita.... but they are also the first to admit that they learned professionalism from me as well as becoming a better band player.
I think you know what you must do.