Buying a pedal steel is a lot harder than buying a regular guitar.

[Kitten Cannon]

Let's all take a moment to be thankful... pedal steel people are remarkably old-fashioned (guess that can't come as a huge surprise?). They don't post prices of anything, it seems! And you have to call people on the phone and yap with them about specs and details and this and that. And while I don't really mind the IDEA of that, it's a lot easier to fire off a quick email at work than it is to have a 2-hour phone conversations.

Add to that the fact that there's precious little info on any of these guitars, and a lot of players are picky as hell about details I can't figure out why they care about. I feel like I should be asking the same questions I see them ask on the SGF, but I don't know what that would possibly net me. Can't figure out why two seemingly identical guitars can cost (brand new) $1500 and $3200, respectively.

Sigh. Think I found my new guitar though. Can't wait till it arrives; then I'll have 2. One set up permanently at home for practice, and the other will be for gigging.

[Jiffy_Jeff]

I was very close to buying a 1956 Fender "White" steel guitar. The lady started flaking and I hesitated. Then it sold. No biggie.

A couple of days later I found a mid to late 60's ShoBud Professional pedal steel for less than the Fender. Awesome deal.

Just gotta wait for the right one.

[chumley]

What questions are you talking about? What details? I have bought three used steel guitars and sold three through SGF. Good deals each time. I have usually ended up talking to the guys after a few E-Mails. I have found these guys to be old fashioned(as I am), or maybe just old(as I am), but honest. Seems to me it is easier to buy a steel guitar, sight unseen, than a six string. Unless you are buying a "vintage" pedal guitar with a primitive or worn changer mechanism, most are comparable, pretty good machines. I've had Carters, Mullen, Emmons, all of which were better mechanically than my student model MSA or old Sho Bud Pro 1. The Emmons was an older model, all pull, short key head, maybe early eighties? It sounded great but required a good bit of travel on the knee levers. One generation back in the evolution of the all pull changer maybe? Still a great guitar. I really think it would be hard to find a very bad steel guitar made in the last ten or fifteen years. Carter, Mullen, Derby, Rittenberry, Zum, GFI, Williams, Emmons, any of the well known brands sound and play great, stay in tune better than the guitars I started out on.

[Kitten Cannon]

What questions are you talking about? What details? I have bought three used steel guitars and sold three through SGF. Good deals each time. I have usually ended up talking to the guys after a few E-Mails. I have found these guys to be old fashioned(as I am), or maybe just old(as I am), but honest. Seems to me it is easier to buy a steel guitar, sight unseen, than a six string. Unless you are buying a "vintage" pedal guitar with a primitive or worn changer mechanism, most are comparable, pretty good machines. I've had Carters, Mullen, Emmons, all of which were better mechanically than my student model MSA or old Sho Bud Pro 1. The Emmons was an older model, all pull, short key head, maybe early eighties? It sounded great but required a good bit of travel on the knee levers. One generation back in the evolution of the all pull changer maybe? Still a great guitar. I really think it would be hard to find a very bad steel guitar made in the last ten or fifteen years. Carter, Mullen, Derby, Rittenberry, Zum, GFI, Williams, Emmons, any of the well known brands sound and play great, stay in tune better than the guitars I started out on.

Yeah... I just wish there were more information on all this. Everyone wants to see the underside, but I never know what they're looking for. Seeing how flexible it'll be for their wacky custom copedents maybe? Or maybe they're like people here who don't know the difference between a cap and a resistor demanding gut shots of an amp before buying? Then again, I'm sure lots of them know what they're looking for, but they never come right out and say it, so it's hard to pick it up by watching.

They're definitely old-fashioned, whereas I hate talking on the phone with a fiery passion and avoid it at ALL costs. I don't know why they're so sensitive about posting prices, too. You can't even see the going rate for an amp stand at Bobbe Seymour's site. It boggles the mind. When I see a price, I never know if it's an actual price or the MAP/list price, and that makes it hard to tell what's even in my range. If it says $2000 does that mean it's $2000 or they'll actually sell it for $1700 if you call them? Ugh. And don't even get me started on the websites. Holy cow, take a look at Mullen's for example. Makes the Heritage guitars site look like an HTML masterpiece.

Buying a steel sight unseen is probably fine if you understand what to look for, but I don't really. This time around I decided to take the easy way out and buy a brand new guitar with a stellar reputation, so I've got an ETS S10 3x5 on the way. It'll be a good complement to my old Pro I, which is super finnicky. The Sho-Bud sounds great, as you'd expect, but for 3+ nights out a week, A) it's heavy, and B) that finnicky nature of it is starting to bug me. I bought it sight unseen and it came to me a bit whack. Let's just say I have learned an awful lot about maintenance and setup of pedal steel guitars in the process. That said, I still don't know enough to get it just right, so I'd like to take the Sho-Bud to Williams and have them do what must be done to get it into shape. It'll be a great practice/recording/occasion gig when I feel like it steel. And the ETS will be my lightweight road-dog, I guess.

[Dave2512]

Be sure to ask if they have any amps for sale in addition to the guitars. I swear every time I've bought a pedal steel the old guy selling it has something choice. Last time I picked up a mint SFDR for $250. It was a special amp.

[Kitten Cannon]

Be sure to ask if they have any amps for sale in addition to the guitars. I swear every time I've bought a pedal steel the old guy selling it has something choice. Last time I picked up a mint SFDR for $250. It was a special amp.

Whoa. Dang. Nice score.

I think most of the guys on the SGF, they'd know better. And the folks who refuse to give out pricing are dealers. I guess it's actually a forum rule over there, although I can't for the life of me figure out why.

But I bet if someone was coming CL for pedal steels, this approach could net them some fascinating stuff. Big loud fascinating stuff like BFTRs with JBLs!:)

[chumley]

Haven't seen an ETS in person, but I bet you'll like it. It will probably have a bit different tone than your Sho Bud, as it has a metal body. But it is a Bud Carter guitar, it will be a good instrument. I like my Carter better than any other steel I have owned.

[stratovarius]

I spoke to an expert about buying a steel guitar and he told me there is quite a bit to watch out for as far as wear issues that make the instrument unplayable.

[BedroomRockStar01]

Hey Kitten, a friend of mine and fellow forum member bought a pedalsteel earlier this year and has had very little time to actually learn how to play it. I know that it's a 70's Sho Bud, that it has 10 strings, and it's a single neck, but that's about all the details I could really provide. He may be interested in moving it. I'll get you his contact info if you'd like.

Edit: Reading comprehension eludes me. I see where you've bought a second one already. Grats.

[mudster]

My good friend hangs out at what I think is steelguitar.com and the people are super nice, can answer questions and help hook you up. Lots of gear sells there too.
I'd try a forum as the dealer info can be scarce.

[Kitten Cannon]

They are nice enough, but very old fashioned there. Thing is, I don't know that forum like I know this one. I know that some people there have absolutely no idea what they're talking about, but I don't know which ones do and which ones don't. The gear sells pretty quickly there - imagine an emporium of Danocasters with a few overpriced items that nobody wants until they come down in price. Builders spam the threads all the time - not necessarily in unpleasant or aggressive ways, but if you say "I'm looking for a steel that does x" you'll probably get two or three responses from guys that say "Check out my steels. Call for pricing."

Ultimately my biggest frustration is that you can't passively do very much. You have to talk to people to get info, pricing, etc. I'd much rather do all the research on my own, make my decision, and THEN deal with the people selling the merchandise.

Oh well. Here's the guitar I'm getting: http://bb.steelguitarforum.com/viewtopic.php?t=221406

[slipbeer]

Nice gut shots on the ETS.

How many knees do ya need to play one of them things?

[BadCat]

Definitely a pain to buy a steel, spend all that money for something you haven't tried in person. You need to live in Nashville or Saint Louis or go to a steel show to try one in person.
I bought a 1992 Mullen from Mickey Adams on the steel forum, it's turned out OK, but I wish I could afford to buy a new Zum or Williams or a Jackson.

[chumley]

Everyone wants to see the underside, but I never know what they're looking for

One thing they are looking for is how the bell cranks attach to the pull rods, to determine how easy it will be to change pedal and knee lever pulls. Also the condition of the return springs on the changer. How the cross levers are mounted, etc. When you get the new ETS, flop it over and compare the undercarriage to your Pro 1. You will see a big difference right away. I think my old Pro 1 had maybe two holes in the bell crank to position the pull rods. Looks like the ETS has several notches on each bell crank, making fine tune adjustments in mechanical advantage for pedal travel and tension possible. The Pro 1 has a double raise, single lower changer, the ETS triple raise and lower, making multiple changes to a single string possible. Now if you never change your pedal or knee lever setup, these advantages are nil, but if you are one of those guys who likes to experiment with a new pull, they are helpful.

Again, I think most any pro level guitar built in the last few years will be relatively trouble free, in terms of wear, tuning problems, etc.

[Kitten Cannon]

One thing they are looking for is how the bell cranks attach to the pull rods, to determine how easy it will be to change pedal and knee lever pulls. Also the condition of the return springs on the changer. How the cross levers are mounted, etc. When you get the new ETS, flop it over and compare the undercarriage to your Pro 1. You will see a big difference right away. I think my old Pro 1 had maybe two holes in the bell crank to position the pull rods. Looks like the ETS has several notches on each bell crank, making fine tune adjustments in mechanical advantage for pedal travel and tension possible. The Pro 1 has a double raise, single lower changer, the ETS triple raise and lower, making multiple changes to a single string possible. Now if you never change your pedal or knee lever setup, these advantages are nil, but if you are one of those guys who likes to experiment with a new pull, they are helpful.

Again, I think most any pro level guitar built in the last few years will be relatively trouble free, in terms of wear, tuning problems, etc.

Huh. Maybe I've got a different Pro I than you had, or maybe it's been toyed with... but I'm pretty sure mine's triple raise-double lower. And there 3 or 4 (can't remember for sure) holes in the bell crank for each pull rod. I guess that's why I'm always surprised to see these questions come up - I've never owned a steel that couldn't be set up with a standard Emmons copedent. But I also haven't seen very many new steels that weren't at least equipped with triple raise-double lower changers.

I sure am interested to compare the two when it arrives, though. I bet the new one will be MUCH easier to play.

[FirstBassman]

Buying a pedal steel is a lot harder than buying a regular guitar.



You think buying a pedal steel is harder.

Try playing one!

[hubberjub]

The owners are typically old timers, but they are good people. I too wanted to purchase a second PSG so I didn't need to set up and tear it down just to practice. I now have four. Two D10s and two S10s. They can be a very expensive instrument to get into.

[hubberjub]

You think buying a pedal steel is harder.

Try playing one!

Actually, to go from never having played one to being able to fake your way through gigs is really easy if you have a little basic musical knowledge. To go from being able to fake it to being a good player takes a long time.

[BadCat]

Some of those old guitars can get pretty grungy underneath and can look like a bowl of spaghetti, too.
Man those new Jackson sure look nice underneath, they have some nice pics on their site.

[hotraman]

Yes...buying a pedal steel guitar is way harder than a 6 string. I was fortunate to have made some great connections here in the Portland Oregon area. I found my SD 10 Rittenberry used at a great price a few years ago. The Emmons are very expensive to purchase, but most of the people I know at the PSG forum are good folks. Most of the "steelers" are very happy to help "beginners" out. I just wish I could play better than I currently do.

[toocommercial]

One thing to remember is that vintage pedal steels are generally worth no more than new pedal steels. The vintage steel guitar world is NOTHING like the regular vintage guitar world. In fact, it's not a good idea at all to buy an old pedal steel if you're trying to learn the instrument. There are too many variables with the mechanism. So much can go wrong. It's way better to buy a modern steel, built within the last 10-15 years at least. That way you'll spend more time on the instrument instead of underneath it.

I play a Jackson Pro IV. They have the best of both worlds: vintage tone and reliable mechanics. Here is the Jackson site. Drool away. (Warning: a song comes on automatically when you click on the site):

http://jacksonsteelguitar.com/

There are many other great brands. Most are solid and reliable. But Jackson has it all, in my opinion.

I'm very active on the steel guitar forum. If you have any questions, ask away. I've bought about 15 steels through that forum since I joined in 2005. All great transactions from good people.

[tjs]

Lots of knowledge on the SGF, but don't you dare mention sacred steel, indie/ambient music, or any other style that's not country, Texas swing, or Hawaiian. They tend to get rather hostile toward anyone who isn't doing the same thing they've been doing for the last 60 years.

[toocommercial]

Lots of knowledge on the SGF, but don't you dare mention sacred steel, indie/ambient music, or any other style that's not country, Texas swing, or Hawaiian. They tend to get rather hostile toward anyone who isn't doing the same thing they've been doing for the last 60 years.

This is true, although there are also many who will defend other genres.

One issue over there is religion. It's acceptable to use God and Jesus in posts and not get much flak. Just don't use Allah or any other non-Christian names. I've had it out over there with some bible thumpers. But it's a losing battle. It's a Christian forum, have no fear. Moderators discourage the mention of religion but no one ever gets thrown out for expressing their love of God - as long as it's the one with the long, white beard.

[Kitten Cannon]

Interesting. toocommercial, I've seen a few of your YouTube videos. Great stuff!

I actually think starting on a vintage steel was a good move, though. Here's why: when my Pro I arrived, it was a mess. The copedent was set up all wrong, the pedal and levers had really different travel, lots of stuff like that. It forced me to learn a ton of stuff I would never have learned if it weren't buggy, and chances are, knowing how the mechanism works will come in handy more than once when something goes awry at a gig. Which sooner or later, no matter what I'm playing, will probably happen. I had the famous Sho-Bud knee lever break a few months back, and I learned really quickly A) where and how to find the new part, and B) that for someone gigging on pedal steel 2-4 nights a week consistently from now till the end of time (according to the Mayans, anyway), a backup steel is really a must. In any case, I've learned a lot more about controlling a wily instrument, and when the ETS shows up, my guess is that my playing will seem improved just because the instrument is getting out of my way a little. It's for this same reason that I'm pretty psyched to have the Sho-Bud set up permanently in the living room -- makes for a good practice steel. I'm going to have the guys at Williams take it in once the new one arrives, recondition it, set it up, all that jazz... and then it should be in pretty good shape too, even if I'm just using it for practice.

[Bobbofallenstar]

Huh. Maybe I've got a different Pro I than you had, or maybe it's been toyed with... but I'm pretty sure mine's triple raise-double lower. And there 3 or 4 (can't remember for sure) holes in the bell crank for each pull rod. I guess that's why I'm always surprised to see these questions come up - I've never owned a steel that couldn't be set up with a standard Emmons copedent. But I also haven't seen very many new steels that weren't at least equipped with triple raise-double lower changers.

I sure am interested to compare the two when it arrives, though. I bet the new one will be MUCH easier to play.

My Pro 1 only has 2 adjustment hole thingys.

Buying mine was easy. This guy wanted my '77 Twin Reverb and all he had to trade was a '71 ShoBud. Worked out well for me although they both weigh roughly the same.

[chumley]

I know that some people there have absolutely no idea what they're talking about, but I don't know which ones do and which ones don't.

As opposed to this forum, where everyone knows what they're talking about....i.e. poly finished guitars don't "breathe" like nitro, guitars with thick finishes sound bad, guitars with thin necks don't sound as good, micing the entire band is a must for good sound, the best pickup for a particular sound is....every boutique offering ever produced, "Lance picked out the most "resonate" one for me", ....etc., etc.

Seriously, I have read some stuff at SGF that I thought was BS, but I roll my eyes on a regular basis at some of the wisdom I read here.

[brdstl]

Lots of knowledge on the SGF, but don't you dare mention sacred steel, indie/ambient music, or any other style that's not country, Texas swing, or Hawaiian. They tend to get rather hostile toward anyone who isn't doing the same thing they've been doing for the last 60 years.

I noticed this hostility while a friend and I were in Nashville looking for a steel. When we told a guy at the store we were at that we weren't really looking to use it for country music, he shot us a go to Hell look that felt like it was meant to burn a hole in us. It reminded me of most people I've ever been around that play bluegrass.

[FirstBassman]

Actually, to go from never having played one to being able to fake your way through gigs is really easy if you have a little basic musical knowledge.


I like to think that I possess a bit more than "a little basic musical knowledge."

But to be able to keep track of where to find the notes on eight strings in some new-fangled tuning (C6, E9, etc.) that I've never played before and coordinate foot pedals and knee levers at the same time - it just wasn't gonna happen for me.

You're a better man than me, brother.
Congrats to ya.

[Kitten Cannon]

I like to think that I have a little more than "a little basic musical knowledge."

But to be able to keep track of where to find the notes on eight strings in some new-fangled tuning (C6, E9, etc.) that I've never played before and coordinate foot pedals and knee levers at the same time - it just wasn't gonna happen for me.

You're a better man than me, brother.
Congrats to ya.


You mean 10 strings? :)

You're right though... you certainly don't strum them all at once. It ain't no autoharp. Right hand technique is far and away the most important (and probably difficult) part of playing PSG. There are a lot of wrong notes available if you don't pull the right strings, too.

I did find it pretty easy to figure out how to pull out the basic A+B pedal I-IV-V stuff, but there's really no shortcut for the rest.

[Bobbofallenstar]

Pedal Steel is one of those things that you may be able to find your way around it today but years from now you will still be finding new things.

I'm about 4 years on my PS and still feel like I have another 20 before I'm good.

[Neer]

Lots of knowledge on the SGF, but don't you dare mention sacred steel, indie/ambient music, or any other style that's not country, Texas swing, or Hawaiian. They tend to get rather hostile toward anyone who isn't doing the same thing they've been doing for the last 60 years.

This just isn't true. While there are many dyed-in-the-wool Country and Hawaiian fans, there are plenty of folks who are into those other styles. The fact that this resource is available is priceless.
The information shared was so difficult to find in the past anywhere--from essential recordings, to stories, to mechanical stuff, to tunings, and more. It pays to take all the other stuff with a grain of salt.
And exactly the opposite is true with a lot of new players--they don't want to meet the old timers half way. If you want them to accept the musical styles you like, you have to at least try to appreciate the older styles.

I don't know that I would have ever successfully learned to play steel without the knowledge I got from the forum.
Living in NJ is not exactly the hotbed of steel guitar.

As for all the religious, it's just another thing to take with a grain of salt. I don't let it bother me at all.

[Kitten Cannon]

As opposed to this forum, where everyone knows what they're talking about....i.e. poly finished guitars don't "breathe" like nitro, guitars with thick finishes sound bad, guitars with thin necks don't sound as good, micing the entire band is a must for good sound, the best pickup for a particular sound is....every boutique offering ever produced, "Lance picked out the most "resonate" one for me", ....etc., etc.

Seriously, I have read some stuff at SGF that I thought was BS, but I roll my eyes on a regular basis at some of the wisdom I read here.

The thing about this forum, however, is that I know enough about who's who here to separate the wheat from the chaff.

[jimshine]

It has been at least a decade since I had one. I bought 3 over the years and looked at maybe a dozen. Most had some hack repairs done to them over the years. The first one I bought needed a lot of work and I lost money on it after getting all the kinks squared away. Then I only wanted ones that were apparently in original shape. Even they needed some work. If I wanted one for myself, I would either shop new or buy from a player than keeps it well maintained. It is worth the extra couple bucks as these things are all about the mechanicals being in smooth, proper, working order.

[chumley]

This just isn't true. While there are many dyed-in-the-wool Country and Hawaiian fans, there are plenty of folks who are into those other styles. The fact that this resource is available is priceless.
The information shared was so difficult to find in the past anywhere--from essential recordings, to stories, to mechanical stuff, to tunings, and more. It pays to take all the other stuff with a grain of salt.
+1

I wish the shared knowledge of SGF had been available back in the middle seventies when I first attempted to play steel guitar. Other than Winnie Winston and Bill Keith's book, which was really good and the best thing out at the time, there was little information available. Who knows, I might have been good if I hadn't had to spend all that time correcting my self taught bad habits. :)

[snacker]

i just got my name on the list for a universal 12 fulawka - it's gonna be a LOOONG wait, but it will buy me some time to save up the moolah

[hotraman]

Pedal Steel is one of those things that you may be able to find your way around it today but years from now you will still be finding new things.

I'm about 4 years on my PS and still feel like I have another 20 before I'm good.

+1 .... that's why I enjoy playing mine.

[dennyman]

The SGF has different age groups just like TGP does. And there are people of all ages on that forum that appreciate Bruce Kaphan, BJ Cole, Greg Leisz, Rusty Young, Buddy Cage, Robert Randolph and even Jerry Garica. And then there are people of all ages that appreciate Buddy Emmons, Jimmy Day, Lloyd Green, Ralph Mooney, Buddy Charleton, John Hughey, etc.

I've never seen a newbie player dismissed, mocked or unanswered for asking any PSG related question. And not everyone there belongs to the same religion or denomination. I think it's the same here. And just like here, if you ask for some mojo, good wishes or prayers, you'll get them in large quantities.

[toocommercial]

I have made some lasting, close, real-life friendships on the Steel Guitar Forum. And another great thing about it is that any of the surviving greats usually either post there or or at least lurk. So if you really want to pick their brain, they're usually receptive. I've made a friend of the legendary Lloyd Green (The Byrds, Charlie Pride, Paul McCartney, etc.), and we now converse regularly. On a recent trip to Nashville he even came to meet me for a coffee. I later wrote a piece about our meeting, and I posted it on another thread a while back:

http://chrisledrew.wordpress.com/2012/03/06/lloyd-green-the-real-deal/