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View Full Version : Master Volume vs. non Master Vloume CLEAN to SCREAM with volume knob


Tag
11-08-2005, 03:18 PM
You hear time and time again how Non MV amps go from clean to scream with just the volume on the guitar better than MV amps. This is simply NOT TRUE! A MV lets you set the overall MAX VOLUME you need, then you adjust the gain from there. I took a Dumble ODS, a Trainwreck express, a Komet 60, a Bogner Shiva 6L6, a TwoRock Emerald Pro, and a TwoRock Opal and checked them SPECIFICALLY for this. NONE did it any better than the other. They were all about the same. Here is a clip of my Fuchs ODS doing just this. The guitar is a Fender hollow USA Tele. Straight into the fuchs. I cranked the gain up about 1\2 way, then turned the volume on the guitar down until it cleand up. There is no cap on the guitar to keep the highs when you turn it down, but it still sounded fine to me. To make it REALLY cool, the Max volume was still at house practicing volumes. I could obviously turn the MV WAY up to allow even more clean headroom. This goes to show how muck flexibility the MV gives you. Try THIS on a 50 watt Non MV amp! You will blow your ears and neighbors out!
:p Anyway, I play a few open chords and strings, then just turn up the volume on the guitar and let it RIP! Totally not my style, but it WORKS. Top clip here...

http://www.soundclick.com/bands/pagemusic.cfm?bandID=271268

Another thumbs up to Andy Fuchs and Howard Dumble for a MV that works like it SHOULD.

VERY GOOD VERY GOOD!!!!

Don L
11-08-2005, 03:25 PM
My Naylor Super Club 38s, which has the MV, does the clean up with guitar volume knob thing very well, too.

Laroosco!
11-08-2005, 03:32 PM
For me the best case scenario would be to have a nice non master amp that I could turn up to it's sweet spot. Then I could do all my adjustments with the volume knob. Most amps IMO don't sound their best when cranked to 10. There is usually a sweet spot between 4 and 7 on the volume knob.

But since I'm not playing huge venues to thousands of people I am realizing that a nice 50watt MV amp is just what I need. I haave the volume on tap if needed but I won't be a slave to a loud amp.

I love the Blonde Tremolux but I ffind that it does one thing great but doesn't have the headroom I need. When I bought it I needed an amp that sounded good turned up to 1:00. Unfortunately I'm ggoing fora gig where I will need an amp that can sound good quiet or loud, that can be cranked for a mean sounding OD or set to a nice loud clean.

So while I know you will not agree Tag, the perfect amp for that IMO is the Matchless Clubman. So the search begins. I'm a litttle bummed that I will have to sell the Tremolux to get it though, but you don't like old Fenders either

:D

Scumback Speakers
11-08-2005, 03:55 PM
Tag, do you have a corresponding NON MV clip to compare yours to? All I see/hear is the MV clip.

Shea
11-08-2005, 05:41 PM
I'm sorry Tag, but that is not jazz OR bebop.

Shea

Ed DeGenaro
11-08-2005, 05:47 PM
Except that clip shows clean to crunch, no scream in sight.

Ed DeGenaro
11-08-2005, 05:54 PM
Originally posted by Ed DeGenaro
Except that clip shows clean to crunch, no scream in sight.
And since you're going to ask for clips...
http://www.eddegenaro.com/audio/oz7.mp3
http://www.eddegenaro.com/audio/circit.mp3

8nthatK
11-08-2005, 06:02 PM
Wow...serious deja vu, lol! I was just about to post a few clips I did of a Two Rock I had a few years back in response to this thread. It was also illustrating the ability of the (Dumble) circuit design cleaning up with the V knob, and I'll be damned if Mr. DeGenaro didn't post the near exact same reply, lol...

I suppose he's right of course, (Ed), it just made me laugh. In fact, I think I titled my original clips I posted, way back when, much the same way, “clean to scream”.

Anyway, I agree Tag, those circuits clean up exceptionally well with just a twist of the knob.

markp
11-08-2005, 06:07 PM
Well tag ,I give you credit for the atempt,seeing how I remember you always saying that it is not possible.

Now if you would crankit up so the cleans have some powertube body to em and your crunch goes to scream,then you will see how fun it is.

8nthatK
11-08-2005, 06:10 PM
Originally posted by Ed DeGenaro
And since you're going to ask for clips...
http://www.eddegenaro.com/audio/oz7.mp3
http://www.eddegenaro.com/audio/circit.mp3

And that is CRUNCH to Scream,, no clean there...

markp
11-08-2005, 06:11 PM
Originally posted by 8nthatK
Wow...serious deja vu, lol! I was just about to post a few clips I did of a Two Rock I had a few years back in response to this thread. It was also illustrating the ability of the (Dumble) circuit design cleaning up with the V knob, and I'll be damned if Mr. DeGenaro didn't post the near exact same reply, lol...

I suppose he's right of course, (Ed), it just made me laugh. In fact, I think I titled my original clips I posted, way back when, much the same way, “clean to scream”.

Anyway, I agree Tag, those circuits clean up exceptionally well with just a twist of the knob.

I would like to hear your clip too.

Ed DeGenaro
11-08-2005, 06:12 PM
Originally posted by 8nthatK
And that is CRUNCH to Scream,, no clean there...
True, but for what it's worth I didn't claim it was...then again I don't think anything does clean to scream.
Well one thing does my 2 amp rig...
http://www.eddegenaro.com/audio/2channel.mp3

ericb
11-08-2005, 06:41 PM
Originally posted by Ed DeGenaro
And since you're going to ask for clips...
http://www.eddegenaro.com/audio/oz7.mp3
http://www.eddegenaro.com/audio/circit.mp3

I don't really care about the tone games and clean to mean demos but damn you're one of my favorite guitarists ever!! Get another touring band together would ya? Geez, although only about 30 of us saw Scott Henderson in Vermont last time I'm sure I could get gather together 30 musicians on my own to see ya LOL.. That means the club will have to provide the other 400 , but if they played your shit, that would be no problem.

ERic

waxnsteel
11-08-2005, 09:12 PM
I'm sure some good MV amps do it. I've never playeda Fuchs, or any of those Dumble types. My Silverface Bandmaster didn't do it. In fact, I didn't like any of the distorted tones in that amp a whole lot. Usable, but never great. Cleans were very nice, but cranking up the channel vol, and keeping the master low didn't sound very good. Is this a characteristic of certain types of amps?

Laroosco!
11-08-2005, 10:14 PM
Originally posted by waxnsteel
I'm sure some good MV amps do it. I've never playeda Fuchs, or any of those Dumble types. My Silverface Bandmaster didn't do it. In fact, I didn't like any of the distorted tones in that amp a whole lot. Usable, but never great. Cleans were very nice, but cranking up the channel vol, and keeping the master low didn't sound very good. Is this a characteristic of certain types of amps?

SF Fenders have really shitty MV's

Tone_Terrific
11-08-2005, 10:23 PM
2 aspects to this IMO.
-Does the amp sound good cranked with the same eq as clean?
-Does the amp sound good cranked at all?
-How much volume range is required for the transition?

OK, 3 aspects, but they're related.

If there is such a thing as loud clean and quiet distorted form the same amp using the guitar control....well there can't be, right?

So, the playing dynamic and level is not versatile enough for Joe Average guitar player in different situations.

MV or not, channel switching or pedals is a necessity.

Ed DeGenaro
11-08-2005, 10:39 PM
Originally posted by ericb
I don't really care about the tone games and clean to mean demos but damn you're one of my favorite guitarists ever!! Get another touring band together would ya? Geez, although only about 30 of us saw Scott Henderson in Vermont last time I'm sure I could get gather together 30 musicians on my own to see ya LOL.. That means the club will have to provide the other 400 , but if they played your shit, that would be no problem.

ERic
That's about all I draw here as well. :)
But thanks for the compliment. Those a re some mighty big shoes to fill, especially with guys like Splatt, Wayne, Matte, etc... around here.

FWIW, I know I will be back in NYC for some gig in the late Summer.

Also I do like the tone games, I find it entertaining..so...I figured I see how a totally slammed and attenuated to hell amp does the clean-up...
http://www.eddegenaro.com/audio/cleanscream.mp3

8nthatK
11-09-2005, 04:51 AM
Originally posted by Ed DeGenaro
I don't think anything does clean to scream.


Yeah, I agree.

And like ericB said...either way, your playing is killer. Inspirational.

8nthatK
11-09-2005, 04:53 AM
Originally posted by markp
I would like to hear your clip too.

I'll try to get that posted tonight...

LaXu
11-09-2005, 06:24 AM
I think pretty much any amp cleans quite well when you turn down the volume control, as long as you're not using supercompressed high gain tones that is. However, very few amps clean really well by just picking softer.

Jackie Treehorn
11-09-2005, 09:13 AM
How is this? Strat straight into amp, airbrake on click 4.

Clean the Movie (http://www.theinside.net/Clean.MPG)

Mondoslug
11-09-2005, 09:22 AM
Cool, kinda like Lennon's movie with the fly.


sounded good though.

zoooombiex
11-09-2005, 10:07 AM
For what it's worth, i thought my two-rock ruby came pretty close to doing both clean and scream via guitar volume, and that was with the master volume in the circuit. it had much more gain available than my other two-rocks (sig, em. pro, opal, custom), and still cleaned up to just a little hair around the edges.

i unfortunately had to sell it, but i might have some clips at home to showcase this... [yes, i know that's a bit of a tease ... hence the "for what it's worth" disclaimer :)]

Killa-B
11-09-2005, 10:15 AM
The GWSA goes from bell tone clean (with a strat) to controlled feedback with picking technique only. Sorry, no digital recorder, so no clips. This amp is a pleasure to play, and it is one of the only pieces of gear that actually made be a better player.

Shea
11-09-2005, 10:59 AM
Originally posted by Laroosco!
SF Fenders have really shitty MV's

You gotta pull them out. Then they sound friggin' AWESOME.*

Shea









*Just kidding

Laroosco!
11-09-2005, 11:09 AM
Originally posted by Shea
You gotta pull them out. Then they sound friggin' AWESOME.*

Shea









*Just kidding

LOL!! :dude

mike@switchback
11-09-2005, 11:17 AM
Originally posted by Ed DeGenaro
And since you're going to ask for clips...
http://www.eddegenaro.com/audio/oz7.mp3
http://www.eddegenaro.com/audio/circit.mp3

I totally love that second one, playing and tone. But in the context of this thread, I distinctly hear what sounds like a pedal clicking on in there. :D

mike@switchback
11-09-2005, 11:18 AM
Originally posted by Tag



http://www.soundclick.com/bands/pagemusic.cfm?bandID=271268

Another thumbs up to Andy Fuchs and Howard Dumble for a MV that works like it SHOULD.

VERY GOOD VERY GOOD!!!!

Although I agree with the folks that say it's crunch and not scream, this is a great-sounding clip. It might have screamed if it wasn't a tele.

Ed DeGenaro
11-09-2005, 11:19 AM
Originally posted by ratter
I totally love that second one, playing and tone. But in the context of this thread, I distinctly hear what sounds like a pedal clicking on in there. :D
Pick-up selector. No pedal on that.

mike@switchback
11-09-2005, 11:22 AM
Originally posted by Ed DeGenaro
Pick-up selector. No pedal on that.

Wow, at 1:01, that's just switching pickups?? Either way, I loved it.

Ed DeGenaro
11-09-2005, 11:26 AM
Originally posted by ratter
Wow, at 1:01, that's just switching pickups?? Either way, I loved it.
Had to listen back to it. :)
Actually pick-up selector andd bringing up the volume. That said that's EMGs.

LaXu
11-09-2005, 11:43 AM
Originally posted by Jackie Treehorn
How is this? Strat straight into amp, airbrake on click 4.

Clean the Movie (http://www.theinside.net/Clean.MPG)

What amp is that? Sounds good.

Ed DeGenaro
11-09-2005, 12:32 PM
Just found one specifically for Tag...
http://home.comcast.net/~loudfunk/plexinopedals.mp3

Jackie Treehorn
11-09-2005, 02:19 PM
Originally posted by LaXu
What amp is that? Sounds good.

Thanks! That's the homemade wreck type amp.

Tag
11-09-2005, 02:45 PM
Originally posted by Ed DeGenaro
Just found one specifically for Tag...
http://home.comcast.net/~loudfunk/plexinopedals.mp3


Hey Ed!
That is some cool playing on all of your clips! I should have spent some more time on mine. That style is WAY out of my comfort zone however. LOL!

Anyway, I honestly think mine shows a cleaner sound, and I am going to at least as much gain from what I can tell. I am also playing at a pretty low volume. If you crank the MV up more, obviously you have more volume to play with. (between dirt and clean) I laugh when guys max the gain knob, turn the volume ALL the way down, and then say it does not clean up with the volume knob on the guitar. LOL! It CANT at that point. There is not enough volume to allow it to happen. A MV allows it to happen at WAY lower volumes than a non MV amp is all. In any case, I wanted to show that ALL amps seem to do this about the same. My HR Deville does it in the gain channel pretty well too, and I believe that has some diode clipping device in there. A MV or lack of MV has NOTHING to do with it, as I am sure you already know. :)

Ed DeGenaro
11-09-2005, 02:59 PM
Originally posted by Tag
Hey Ed!
That is some cool playing on all of your clips! I should have spent some more time on mine. That style is WAY out of my comfort zone however. LOL!

Anyway, I honestly think mine shows a cleaner sound, and I am going to at least as much gain from what I can tell. I am also playing at a pretty low volume. If you crank the MV up more, obviously you have more volume to play with. (between dirt and clean) I laugh when guys max the gain knob, turn the volume ALL the way down, and then say it does not clean up with the volume knob on the guitar. LOL! It CANT at that point. There is not enough volume to allow it to happen. A MV allows it to happen at WAY lower volumes than a non MV amp is all. In any case, I wanted to show that ALL amps seem to do this about the same. My HR Deville does it in the gain channel pretty well too, and I believe that has some diode clipping device in there. A MV or lack of MV has NOTHING to do with it, as I am sure you already know. :)
Doesn't sound like it to me on the gain side, but yeah your clean is way cleaner (kinda was a given :)...but then the pick-ups slam the amp pretty hard.
As for volumee this was with a Hot Plate down just about bedroom volume.

scottcw
11-09-2005, 05:44 PM
Originally posted by Jackie Treehorn
How is this? Strat straight into amp, airbrake on click 4.

Clean the Movie (http://www.theinside.net/Clean.MPG)

You win.