Tape and/or modulated digital delay question

[screamingdaisy]

What I want to do is a delay with one repeat at a very short delay time and detuned enough so that it sounded similar to a chorus type effect, but thicker/soupier and not so 80s sounding when used with gain.

I'm thinking I'll need a tape delay to do this, but I don't know which ones are capable of this type of effect. I've heard an old Korg tape unit will, but I've never heard one. Will any of the Space Echo's do that sorta effect? Any other suggestions?

Thanks. :)

[brent]

you can get some pretty extreme modulated delays out of the Line6 DL4 and probably the echopark as well although I haven't tried the EP

[forestryguy]

The Boss DD-20 has a nice sounding modulated delay as one option. Also the EH Deluxe Memory Man does very soupy chorused delays.

[screamingdaisy]

Originally posted by brent
you can get some pretty extreme modulated delays out of the Line6 DL4 and probably the echopark as well although I haven't tried the EP

Tried the Line6 stuff....doesn't really interest me.


Originally posted by forestryguy
The Boss DD-20 has a nice sounding modulated delay as one option. Also the EH Deluxe Memory Man does very soupy chorused delays.

I have a DD-20 that I've been experimenting on....I like it, but it's not really doing what I'm after.

Does the DMM modulate the whole signal or just the repeats, because that's what I'm looking for....also, does the modulation sound similar to the Small Clone?

[65bfdr]

If you want to modulate the whole signal, why don't you use a different pedal and stick it front of the delay???

[MrMunky]

hmm

http://www.inrerocknroll.com/tunes/Slap.mp3

http://www.inrerocknroll.com/tunes/HollyJ.mp3

http://www.inrerocknroll.com/tunes/Rudy.mp3

[screamingdaisy]

Originally posted by 65bfdr
If you want to modulate the whole signal, why don't you use a different pedal and stick it front of the delay???

Sorry, I should've worded that better.

I don't want the direct tone modulated, just the repeats, and I need to get enough detune/depth to give it a chorusy kinda sound.

[screamingdaisy]

Originally posted by MrMunky
hmm

http://www.inrerocknroll.com/tunes/Slap.mp3

http://www.inrerocknroll.com/tunes/HollyJ.mp3

http://www.inrerocknroll.com/tunes/Rudy.mp3

Something like the guitar on the right in Rudy.



Or, like in this (it's from a 1975 live concert, and the playing starts at 0:41)

Children of the Grave (http://www.bigozine.com/MP3s/BSBasbury/BSBasbury207.mp3)

[forestryguy]

Best I remember, the DMM modulates the whole signal. I'll experiment a little to see if it can be tweaked to do what you want. Sorry, no experience with the Small Clone.

[drolling]

Yes. The sickest, thickest & soupiest modulated delay's got to be the EH Deluxe Memory Man. They call it "chorus", but I don't really know what it is. Very cool, tho'. And only on the repeats.

The Diamond Memory Lane does a cleaned up, hi-fi version of this trick, but IMO, the authentic, gunked up sound of the MemoryMan's somehow more appealing.

[Moe45673]

actually, the keeley modded dd-3 will do everything you're asking for and more, due to the built in fx loop. You can stick a pitch shifter in there!

the boss dd-20 does do a sweet modulated delay, which I believe mr munky used on his recordings

http://www.robertkeeley.com/product.php?id=41

[duende]

Get a space echo and crinkle up the tape. Best chorused/mod delay you will ever hear.

Otherwise.... get a Echoczar with an Angle baby. Only modulates the repeats!!

Alex

[65bfdr]

The Diamond memory lane does that to a tee

[drbob1]

I sound like a broken record here... here... here...

Yamaha E1005 or 1010 or Ibanez AD202 will do that in spades, but they are larger than a pedal...

[chrisr0712]

The Line6 Echo Park modulates the repeats only. Sounds very very nice.
The modulation knob adds the following to the repeats
Tape - wow and flutter
Digital - chorus
Analog - vibrato

[HassanBinSober]

http://www.buildyourownclone.com/delay.html

Get the one with the effects loop and add chorus to only the repeats and leave the original note alone.

[drbob1]

Originally posted by splatt
it'd be a very rare design, indeed, that only modulated the "repeats";
in the "classic" analog design, it's the original delay whose time/length is being modulated; since the modulator is actually *in constant motion*, it's the "repeats" that seem like they're changing:
well, they are, because each iteration of the original delay is being modulated.....
in those designs, the dry signal is NOT (typically) modulated;
control is provided w/modulation *depth+speed*, and the all-important *mix* control.
in the past,
there were great-sounding mod-delay pedals by both ibanez and pearl, which were likely designed by the same folks.
(but, they're noisier, of course, than current designs might be: maybe someone like sean/lovepedal or robert keeley could 'fix' these older units?).
fwiw, the echo-czar sounds great, to me;
the blackbox quicksilver also offers this kinda function, as well as the potential for interesting external voltage-controls.
dt / spltrcl

I've been thinking about this. How do they modulate the delay to create the pitch shifting effect without getting the delay time to vary noticeably?

Also, I asked in another thread, I have one modulated delay (Yamaha E1005) that each repeat is pitch shifted but a constant tone, whereas the AD202 each repeat is not only pitch shifted but is also internally modulated (warbly). Why or how is this done?

[screamingdaisy]

Originally posted by Moe45673
actually, the keeley modded dd-3 will do everything you're asking for and more, due to the built in fx loop. You can stick a pitch shifter in there!

the boss dd-20 does do a sweet modulated delay, which I believe mr munky used on his recordings

http://www.robertkeeley.com/product.php?id=41

I'll have to look into the DD-3. I was actually thinking of getting a Maxon AD-999 modded for an FX loop to pull this off as I really love the sound of that pedal.

I've been messing with the DD-20 for days....it's too "clean" and "Boss" sounding....I need something that's thicker and detunes more.


FWIW....I dug out a (pretty broken) DigiDelay tonight and it's modulation setting seems to work well as it has the slight detune I'm after. I'll have to try it again tomorrow though and see how it sounds turned up louder.


Originally posted by drbob1
I sound like a broken record here... here... here...

Yamaha E1005 or 1010 or Ibanez AD202 will do that in spades, but they are larger than a pedal...

Do those have a detune to the repeats?


Originally posted by chrisr0712
The Line6 Echo Park modulates the repeats only. Sounds very very nice.
The modulation knob adds the following to the repeats
Tape - wow and flutter
Digital - chorus
Analog - vibrato

I'll have to give Line6 another go and see if it gets me the sound I'm after.

[dramaticrunner]

hi there, i know you said you've been messing around with the dd-20 for a while, so this might not help all that much.

i set the mod depth and rate to taste, almost at full effect level, with feedback all the way down, and the delay set at 1ms. it gives it a pretty thick sound, like a cheap leslie imitation, hope this helps

[threm]

Originally posted by screamingdaisy
I'll have to look into the DD-3. I was actually thinking of getting a Maxon AD-999 modded for an FX loop to pull this off as I really love the sound of that pedal.
As I`ve mentioned before Analogman modded a couple of AD900 for me with true bypass and two input jacks for expr pedals (delay time and repeats). Works perfect and lots of fun.
If you had this done in addition to an effect loop, wou would have a wicked delay. With an added on/off stompswitch for the effect loop it would be about perfect.

Post a picture of the glory box then. ;)


Or get the Echoczar................

[screamingdaisy]

Originally posted by dramaticrunner
hi there, i know you said you've been messing around with the dd-20 for a while, so this might not help all that much.

i set the mod depth and rate to taste, almost at full effect level, with feedback all the way down, and the delay set at 1ms. it gives it a pretty thick sound, like a cheap leslie imitation, hope this helps

Hmm....never thought to turn the effect level all the way up. I'll give it a shot.


Originally posted by threm


Post a picture of the glory box then. ;)

I will. :)


Or get the Echoczar................

For that $$$ I'd rather spend a little more and get a TTE.

[Tim Bowen]

Line 6 DL-4 is a rather deep box that I've found invaluable for recording applications. As a live performance tool, the unit did nothing but consistently bite me on the arse, and quite hard, at that. Lots of working players and pros routinely utilize the big green monster, so all I can do is to relate my personal experience. Which is this -

1.) The unit is extremely voltage-sensitive, no question. In venues with clean, consistent power, it's not a problem. I don't always play venues with such. At two outdoor shows at different venues, I used a Pedal Power II, along with the dedicated Line 6 power cable, to power the unit. It intermittently dropped my volume to less than half capacity (I'm not talking about the "volume drop" issue that's been mentioned here - I'm talking quite severe and useless). Subsequently, I had no choice but to remove the DL-4 from my chain. I've since determined that powering the unit via a Godlyke Powerall, as plugged into the courtesy outlet of the PPII, effectively alleviates such. I would *speculate* that use of a voltage regulation device in-line would alleviate said issues as well. In any event, a stompbox is not the sort of thing I care to worry about in this regard.

2.) Having moved past the voltage thing, I got to the point where I couldn't deal with the character that the digital converters added to the tone - in all honesty, I've worked around all sorts of buffers and tonesuckers, but that clanky, metallic tonal blueprint fatigued my ears in no time, in no uncertain terms. When I use the DL-4 for recording, it's always for some sort of embellishment track, never a primary core track.

As to the original question - Toneczar Echoczar is among the most brilliant "noisemakers" I've encountered, in addition to being a highly practical tool. Not a schill, just a fan. The slide, feedback, and repeat character options offer the sonic anarchist a myriad of options.

For pure tone, nothing sounds cooler to me than tape. However, no tape echo offers *at the stomp of a foot* the sonic possibilities of an Echoczar (to my knowledge). For live use, I'm not into tape delays, due to the required maintenance, as well as the considerable difference between the base tone and the effected tone.

Just my opinion and experience. YMMV and all that good stuff.

[screamingdaisy]

Originally posted by Tim Bowen

For pure tone, nothing sounds cooler to me than tape. However, no tape echo offers *at the stomp of a foot* the sonic possibilities of an Echoczar (to my knowledge). For live use, I'm not into tape delays, due to the required maintenance, as well as the considerable difference between the base tone and the effected tone.

Everytime I think tape, I start thinking about the same problems....


.....so how does the Echoczar handle FX loops?


.....and do you need the Angelbaby to do modulated repeats, or could you wire any chorus pedal/pitchshifter into it?

[drbob1]

I'd love to find out if the AD202 and Yamaha 1005 are using an LFO to modulate the delay, or a seperate chip to do pitch shifting either up or downstream from the delay?

I've recently tried the Mooger Fooger CP251 with my blue (tube) SIB delay and it's not a huge success, the modulation does work but I can't find a setting of the modulation that does say a smooth chorus or flange, or even a tremelo on the delays. It'll give a sort of sick warble, or a huge volume/pitch change but nothing like the built in modulation fo the bigger delays.

As a side note, I recently set up the CP251 with sync'd LFOs for my MF Ring Modulator, MF Low pass filter, Foxrox TZF (with the LFO controlling the "Manual" which pretty much sounds like the Flange is syncing with the other pedals) and the SIB Delay. Since you can't use the LFO to set delay time on the SIB, it comes down to manually syncing that witht he 251, but you can get the whole mass working together-pretty cool noise making. Not sure how useful but cool.

On another note, since I've rediscovered the Yamaha E1005, I have no need or excuse to get the Echoczar-I just can't think of a way that's going to be more useful in my non-gigging life, although tap temp would be fun. Maybe just the Diamond:cool:

[Tim Bowen]

Originally posted by screamingdaisy


.....so how does the Echoczar handle FX loops?


.....and do you need the Angelbaby to do modulated repeats, or could you wire any chorus pedal/pitchshifter into it?

Good questions - which I unfortunately can't answer! None of my amps contain loops, and actually, I'm sort of a noob to modulated repeats. I'd never previously went for that sound until recently at a session, where I just used the dedicated patch on the Line 6 DL-4. It's a cool texture, just not one that I'd ever had much call to use. Since the Echoczar does not have a loop per se, I'd *speculate* that it'd be tough to configure an auxiliary detuned pitch device in line such that only the repeats would be modulated, other than with use of the Angelbaby. Somebody please correct me if I'm wrong.

[DonneR]

Some 'old school' entries ~~~

the Boss Harmonist - if you put the harmony selector at 0 it does a detune chorus --- there are two harmony generators, one at 0 does down/detune - the other does 'uptune' for lack of a better word....in stereo its interesting ~~~

and the old Ibanez DCF digital chorus flanger on longer settings does some odd short modulated slapback thing

and the old Ibanez DML modulated delays will do 'sick' way past anything youd ever actually use :D there were I II III version the I being the lowest fi - greasier.......

there is also a setting on the old boss RV2 thats a gated reverb which throws a full verb and then cuts it, and if you set it just shy of your next note it can give some wierd space.......;)



and duende is right - crinkled tape is a favorite of mine from way back ---- :cool:

[forestryguy]

I have a rack unit called the Peavy Ultraverb which I got FREE because it supposedly didn't work. All I did was find a wall wart rated appropriately and found that it works fine. A bit of a bear to program but it sounds great. It will do a "pre-delay" up to 340 ms, then you can add chorus, flanging, gated reverb, vibrato and stereo parallel echoes. You may be able to get what you want out of this unit, or an Ultraverb II if you can find one. This is not a quadraverb in quality, but it may be worth a try for your use.

[BmoreTele]

From a post in the HC Keyboard Forum about hooking up his Moog CP251 to a Boss DD20 -

"I have the LFO (Square wave) going out to the multiple module, then sending it out from there to the pedal in of the giga delay - it works great! as you change the frequency of the LFO you can see the delay time change. Great way to have tempo synched delays."

[threm]

The Echoczar doesn`t have a dedicated effect loop par se but you can get the same results; blend of direct (dry) sound and effected (modulated, harmonized etc) repeats, when used in stereo.
Using the Mix knob and the two outputs you can have the dry going in one amp and the repeats in the other, or a more gradual blend between the two.
Ok, it`s one more amp added but the sound you`ll get is five times bigger. ;)

[screamingdaisy]

Originally posted by threm
The Echoczar doesn`t have a dedicated effect loop par se but you can get the same results; blend of direct (dry) sound and effected (modulated, harmonized etc) repeats, when used in stereo.
Using the Mix knob and the two outputs you can have the dry going in one amp and the repeats in the other, or a more gradual blend between the two.
Ok, it`s one more amp added but the sound you`ll get is five times bigger. ;)

Thanks. I've run in stereo before and it sounds killer, particularily with chorus, which sorta the same idea as this is. My big-rig is based around stereo chorus and delay, only I've never been able to get the sound quite right, but I think with the Echoczar/Angelbaby I'll finally be able to nail the sound in my head.

------

Anyway, thanks for the help guys. I've put my name on the waiting list for the Echoczar and Angelbaby, so hopefully in about six months I should have it in my hot little paws. Damn that's a long waiting list though.....I should've bought in before the hype built up. :D