playing in the pocket [Archive]

Tim Bowen

11-23-2005, 10:43 PM

Good suggestions from fr8_trane, and to that list, I would add The Meters, and a very unsung band whose heyday was the 60's/70's, known as Rare Earth (whom I *believe* were the only "white" band signed by Motown).

Listen to a lot of "bluesy jazz" and "jazzy blues". Quite a few of the heads and more conversational improvisations are, by design, somewhat rhythmically 'behind the beat'. Kenny Burrell is a master of this, as was Hammond B3 organ grinder Jimmy Smith.

Among modern guitarists, John Scofield plays behind the beat about as far as it's possible without sounding 'out of time'! I think this is very much by design though; it's his "style".

In terms of musical genres, I would probably first suggest listening to (various and sundry varieties of) "swing", for the player that wants to focus on playing in a relaxed, unhurried manner. Masters of this style can sound like they're "loping" even at very quick tempos.

Also listen to some of the great British rock drummers. John Bonham is an obvious choice, and additionally, Lee Kerslake (Uriah Heep) and Simon Kirke (Free, Bad Company) provide great examples of 'behind the beat' kit banging (and there's good reason it's called "backbeat"). Do not listen to Stewart Copeland (for your purposes)! Great drummer, very thematically intelligent, but decidedly a very 'on top of the beat' drummer. In fact, that was one of the "issues" with The Police (I'll sidestep the personality conflict thing) - Sting played very loping, 'behind the beat' figures, while Copeland always pushed the downbeat forward. That rhythmical "clash" is, to me, one of the things that made that band sound interesting, but, having been involved in several scenarios where there's different rhythmic perspectives among rhythm section players, I know that it can be more fun to listen to than to try and groove with, in the heat of the moment. Many of the rock "power trio" rhythm sections from the 60's and 70's played 'on top of the beat' (and of course were quite "busy" - product of the era). In the Jimi Hendrix Experience, Mitchell and Redding pushed forward, while Hendrix "laid back". Again, quite interesting, from the listener's perspective. Compare the time and feel of The Experience to Band of Gypsies. Among other notable power trios, I'm not sure what Jack Bruce and Ginger Baker were attempting to accomplish... never mind.

In his improvisations, Eric Johnson often plays 'on top of the beat'.

For a style of music that (to me) most often represents dead-nuts time (neither behind or ahead, but RIGHT ON IT), I quickly think of Bluegrass. Accomplished Bluegrass musicians have such great sense of time that it should be illegal.

As with many things, some of the most difficult scenarios for which to lay down convincing time are often perceived as being the simplest. For instance - playing a percussive chord "chank" on beats '4' and '10' within a 12/8 time siganature (try it!); playing upstrokes on the 'ands' in Cajun/Zydeco music (as well as within New Orleans-approved Blues shuffles); the much maligned (I'm too-cool-for-school and far-too-cerebral to actually get this RIGHT) root-five bass guitar move that is so integral to Country music (I've known guys that could play like Jaco, and yet could not properly deliver this to recording media 'in time', with a set of cans on their ears, for three solid minutes, if their butts were on fire).

As for my own playing... I've worked really hard on my time, but because I'm a human being, I falter constantly. I've noticed a couple of constants, which, in my case, apply more to the bandstand than to the studio: if, for whatever reason, I'm stressed, or if I'm "thinking too much", my playing is slightly ahead of the downbeat. When I'm relaxed and happy, my time is where I want it to be - which is either slightly behind, or as dead-nuts ON as humanly possible (depends on the tune or style of music). I just listened to a live recording of a show I did last week, and sure enough, my time was more solid after the first number (I've always suffered from "first tune of the set syndrome").

Since you mentioned the recording process, doubling your parts (and not just rhythms - try "learning" your improvised fills and leads, and double them) is a great way to get in touch with your innate sense of time, in addition to being an invaluable sonic texture for certain tracks. If you dink with it long enough, you can sort of "vary the delay time" (in ms) in "real time", as opposed to using a delay for such, which can add huge ambience to a track. Try playing an extremely tight and precise track, and then double that with a very loose, *borderline sloppy* take, and pan hard, right and left. It can sound pretty cool.

Hank Linderman

11-24-2005, 08:37 AM

I designed this exercise to separate time from all other aspects of playing.

You'll need a day with no distractions - no phones, tv, visitors, nothing.

Clost the door to your room, start the metronome at a moderate tempo and play one note at each quarter note. The same note, over an over again. Don't change tempo, don't change notes.

The first thing you will notice is how impatient you are, how bored you are, all the things you could be doing, etc. This stage can last a long time. Stay with it, it will pass.

Keep playing the one note, focusing on nailing each click of the metronome. You will occasionally need to rest your hand, that's ok, but keep the metronome going.

After about 45 minutes, you will be getting pretty good at hitting the click dead on for a few measures. As these locked-in periods lengthen, you may notice a feeling something like a meditative "high". Keep playing one note, and focus on the "high" feeling. If you want, change the tempo a little.

When you can play nailing each click consistently for as long as you want, it's time to play with the beat. Start to play a consistent amount ahead of the beat - make the distance you are ahead consistent. Experiment with different amounts of rushing, from subtle to extreme. As you do this, notice how each approach feels. Repeat with playing behind the beat.

When I did this, I spent 4 or 5 hours. I haven't had to do it since. That was 25 years ago. Be aware that you will be slightly unfit for human company for awhile after this - you'll be so deep into time that your personality will be supressed. It wears off in a few hours.

The meditative high feeling is what you look for when you go back to playing music.

Let me know if it works for you!

Best....H

mtlin

11-24-2005, 01:34 PM

Great observations Tim! I'm going to listen to some of those guys and try to get a sense of the way those different rhythm styles feel. One question about your terminology: by "on top of the beat" do you mean dead on or do you mean slightly a head of the beat?

Crazy exercise, H! If I ever have enough time on my hands, I'll consider giving it a whirl. It will be like going on a zen retreat. I'm not sure I have the patience for it.

Tomo

11-24-2005, 09:49 PM

Everyone said great suggestion. I don't need to add anything.

I would practice my swing groove with Rt 3 7 (Rt on 6th or 5th
strings, 3rd & 7th on 3rd or 4th strings)... using simple Bb blues
or Eb blues... I IV V changes with slow temp. around 40-52
2 & 4(there are more ways to practice... but here just a few ideas)

This way you can control your time feel, chord changes(harmony)
and left hand muting technique for funk groove.

I love funky groove myself... but I don't just jump into jam or
groove.. I like to do things with purpose and prepare certain
things. Swing groove will give you many thoughts on things
that you didn't notice before.

You record this to your tape. (now you have your
comping & metronome) @@@@ You should practice
cleaner, precise ... in order to do this right. You may
want to practice without your metronome for a while
until you can handle your groove in tempo.

Now you need to practice "Melody" simple melody
(I teach these, but I would like to give you just ideas
here...ok) play that melody over and over...but please
compare your melody, how you phrase it? each entrance
and exit(duration), singing quality... check and compare
these to your favorite musician, Ben Webster, Coleman
Howkins... anybody who plays soulful...

but if you feel you need to work on more technique
then you need to practice some chromatic exercises
with very slow tempo, kill all your bad habits (if you move
your left fingers too much?) Watch out both fingers
timing... many things you need to check.

Back to the Melody. Now you record your melody..
play melody 2-3 times, solo 2-3 times(imagining as
if you are playing with the band, other instruments)
back to melody.... Play like a performance, not sound
like a practice. Record this and check your performance
timing, singing quality, feel, tone, and everything.

Then play swing groove over this recording.
Check balance, performance quality. Just make sure
you want to sound good just yourself.

Just a idea.... Many many possibilities. Each person
has own pace and order.

Good luck.

mtlin

11-25-2005, 08:33 AM

Hi Tomo,

Great suggestion. BTW, I recently bought your video, Accelerate Your Guitar Playing, and I've started to incorporate some of the exercises I found there into my practice routine. It's great stuff! Thank you.

Best,

Martin

Tomo

11-25-2005, 09:42 AM

Originally posted by mtlin
Hi Tomo,

Great suggestion. BTW, I recently bought your video, Accelerate Your Guitar Playing, and I've started to incorporate some of the exercises I found there into my practice routine. It's great stuff! Thank you.

Best,

Martin

Hi Martin,

I am glad that you liked my comment. I would like to practice
way way slow　so that I can hear tiny nuance on my time, tone.
Thank you so much for　using my AYGP dvd. Thanks.
Please work on exercise 19. That's my worm　up..
Booklet suggested around 55 (2&4), but I make my students
to play 40-52. You can practice "Blue Monk" over it.
You can taste rhythm displacement ahead , dead, behind of beat,
you can play short, long, even notes. many ways.

Let me know your progress.

Thanks,

Tomo

Free

11-25-2005, 07:01 PM

Tim Bowen - very well said on the topic of rhythm, groove, and feel. Musicians, even educated ones, seem to forget about the effect of playing with a non-metronomic rhythm and realizing the effects of playing ahead or behind the beat. Nice work.

Tim Bowen

11-26-2005, 12:53 AM

Originally posted by mtlin One question about your terminology: by "on top of the beat" do you mean dead on or do you mean slightly ahead of the beat?

"Slightly ahead" is what I meant. Not sure if that's proper jargon, but that's the phrase that was always used as I was being brought up in the trade.

Tim Bowen

11-26-2005, 12:55 AM

Free, thanks for the kind words.

mtlin

11-26-2005, 09:58 PM

Tomo-- I will start to work on exercise 19 and do the things you suggest. I had been practicing chops on the 2 and the 4. But I see how ex. 19 is an even better warm up.

Thanks for the clarification Tim. I`m going to listen to the guys you mention and try to hear the rhythmical subtlties that you note.

Martin

fr8_trane

11-28-2005, 07:21 AM

Man I must be time retarded. I have always heard of musicians playing behind the beat, ahead of the beat and in the pocket. But all I know is a great groove when I hear one. Stewart Copeland's ahead of the beat? That's news to me - I think his grooves on "the world is running down, Walking on the moon, Voices in my head" and others are SMOKING but I just don't hear any rhythmic clash:confused:. I can hear 3 against 4 as a rhythmic clash or playing a solo with swing feel over straight 8ths (or vice versa) but I don't "get" ahead of or behind the beat. How the hell can a drummer be ahead or behind the beat when he IS the beat? In my limited world there is bad timing and "in the pocket". Now I understand that some advanced musicians play with time but to me this is on the same skill level as a Baseball player who intentionally slows his swing to hit to the opposite field. I would be satisfied just playing consistently in time and being able to switch from a straight eighth to a triplet feel or swing feel without skipping a beat. I would also like to be able to comp or solo in 5/4, 7/8 and other odd meters.

harryjmic

11-28-2005, 08:01 AM

Another great thing to practice which is very tough to do is set a metronome to play about 30 BPM and use each click as a count of 4. Since each click is the start of a new measure play between the clicks all the possible combinations between the clicks.

For example: play 2 half notes, 4 quarter notes, 8 eigth notes, 6 3/2 triplets 5 in the space of 4, etc... get good enough to land on each click while putting all the stuff between the clicks. This is a real B***ch to do because the clicks are so far apart and you will notice a lot of drifting, well at least I do.

mtlin

11-28-2005, 08:12 AM

Lol, trane. I often wonder the same thing about how a drummer can be ahead or behind the beat when he is the beat. But I would guess that it would be something like hitting the snare late relative to the pattern being played on the highhat. Is that the idea Tim?

Great excercise harry. Sounds like a killer.

mtlin

Tomo

11-28-2005, 09:58 AM

How about this?

1) play F jazz blues walking bass line...
same time, you sing melody, Straight No Chaser,

2) Play shuffle bass line ...keep it simple..
sing improvised melody against your bass line.

Time management.

Tomo

Free

11-28-2005, 06:09 PM

Originally posted by mtlin
Lol, trane. I often wonder the same thing about how a drummer can be ahead or behind the beat when he is the beat. But I would guess that it would be something like hitting the snare late relative to the pattern being played on the highhat. Is that the idea Tim?

Great excercise harry. Sounds like a killer.

mtlin

Great point - can Tim or someone elaborate on what exactly the technique or touch would be to convey the effect of a Drummer playing behind the beat - is it all relative to things the high-hat tempo and vica versa or something? Thanks.

Tim Bowen

11-29-2005, 01:54 AM

Originally posted by mtlin
I often wonder the same thing about how a drummer can be ahead or behind the beat when he is the beat. But I would guess that it would be something like hitting the snare late relative to the pattern being played on the highhat. Is that the idea Tim?

mtlin

That's an interesting question. I suppose I've never really looked at it from exactly that angle. Either the bassist or the drummer sets the pace, and when both can get together on it, it's really great. Acoustic-electric guitars can act as a melodic "hi-hat" within the band format, and if that player is convicted enough, all should follow him or her.

One of the drummers that I work with pushes toward the downbeat moreso than the other drummers I play with. In his case, it's everything - kick, snare, hat, cymbal splashes and rides, tom fills. There's nothing whatsoever wrong with his meter, it's quite consistent - he simply likes to push. His sense of time is a lot like Copeland's. Which is interesting, given the fact that he idealized Bonham when he was learning to play in the early to mid 70's.

I would think that combining different sense of the downbeat between hat and snare would/could sound a bit seasick. I do enjoy drummers that tastefully/artfully superimpose time other than four over four, as Bill Bruford has been known to flirt with in working with Yes, but that's not really about how meter feels in relation to the downbeat.

Sometimes I'm the timekeeper with projects, other times I'm following someone else's time. As guitarist and mandolin player, I'm usually embellishment and gravy. When I play bass, I've a fairly strong groove, and if the drummer is prone to floundering, I'll make him follow me. If the drummer is strong, I'll default to the fact that the drummer should be the timekeeper, and I'll lock in with his foot. Whoever's time seems to be the most convicted is what I hook up with.

1-Take-Wonder

11-30-2005, 02:31 PM

Originally posted by Free
Great point - can Tim or someone elaborate on what exactly the technique or touch would be to convey the effect of a Drummer playing behind the beat - is it all relative to things the high-hat tempo and vica versa or something? Thanks.

I suspect we're all coming at this from different angles. Those of us with "band geek" history are probably looking at it from a notation stand point on the sheet music. The straight rock guys see the tempo as "whatever the drummers' playing." From a notation standpoint the tempo is dictated to you. Hence "Presto" at the top of the page gets you into the 100-150 BPM tempo range, for example. In the rock setting, I tend to think of this as the "beat" or the tempo of the song. It lives objectively from the rhythm section's ability to set a tempo in that range and stay on it.

A good rhythm section is able to both establish a tempo, and push it or drag it without losing track of where the beats are landing if they just played it straight. So the drummer might "be" the beat, but if he's losing or picking up time from the initially established tempo in an...'unmusical' way, (chuckle) it creates the nausea that was referred to earlier.

Is this helping or am I just trying to find some value in all those years in the brass section???

Free

12-01-2005, 01:00 AM

Thanks - I think we are definitely getting somewhere with this, but would really like to delve more into it - it's really interesting to me trying to make the intangible aspect of FEEL more concrete!

Antero

12-01-2005, 01:39 AM

Here's the way I look at it:

When you're playing an instrument (or dancing, or singing...) you're playing to a rhythm that is external to you. You are fitting what you're playing onto this rhythm, rather than having the rhythm defined purely by what you do. Often, the drummer is just there to lay that out for everyone, but a skilled drummer can manipulate it and weave around it.

You're also choosing where to put the attack - jazz drummers, for example, generally seem to start the kick just a bit early, so the actual sound falls precisely on the beat, while a lot of rock drummers aim for the mallet-head impact at the beat, which makes the kick hit slightly later. This matters for bass and kick more than for treble sounds.

Tomo

12-01-2005, 07:29 AM

Hi Martin,

Here... some groove examples.

Groove with Rt 3 7 type voicings. You can hear a metronome 2 & 4

Rt 3 7 swing F blues variation (http://www02.homepage.villanova.edu/david.kaplowitz/tomo/TS_Ryo_FuchsC_Swing_1.mp3)

Relax feel on shuffle blues...

shuffle blues groove (www02.homepage.villanova.edu/david.kaplowitz/tomo/Wizard_335_shuffle-blues_1.mp3)

Blues & jazz type of phrasing over "All of me" .... showing all chord changes. If you look at your fretboard, it's difficult
imagine those sounds.

Jazzy feel (http://www02.homepage.villanova.edu/david.kaplowitz/tomo/TS_335_Jazzy_Solo_1.mp3)

Just feel .... over R&B type song... David T Walker type sound.

R&B laid back feel (www02.homepage.villanova.edu/david.kaplowitz/tomo/Wizard_335_RandB-solo_1.mp3)

Just walking bassline... a head of beat? push & pull...

Walking bass line on Confirmation (www02.homepage.villanova.edu/david.kaplowitz/tomo/Wizard_335_fast-walking_1.mp3)

If you have specific image of sound, it's easier to focus and
plan toward that way...

Tomo

mtlin

12-01-2005, 01:58 PM

Interesting points 1-take-wonder and Antero! I really appreciate getting your perspective. I'm being to realize that if I approach this analytically, I'm just going to get in over my head. I think the best approach for me is in terms of feel. That's why I appreciate Tomo's soundclips so much. A sound clip is worth a thousand words.

I'm also happy to report that I've been practicing with a metronome -- doing some of the excercises that Tomo recommended and some toher stuff -- and I've already seen some improvement. This is fun!

mtlin

1-Take-Wonder

12-01-2005, 02:40 PM

Originally posted by mtlin
...That's why I appreciate Tomo's soundclips so much. A sound clip is worth a thousand words.

mtlin

NO DOUBT....which is why I'm posting words and he's posting clips!!! (LOL)

I listened to them earlier too...HOLY MOTHER!!....monster chops, great feel, you can almost hear how much he loves playing...(I think I found a new guitar hero!)

can't imagine going wrong following his advice...

Tom Gross

12-01-2005, 03:15 PM

Originally posted by 1-Take-Wonder
NO DOUBT....which is why I'm posting words and he's posting clips!!! (LOL)

I listened to them earlier too...HOLY MOTHER!!....monster chops, great feel, you can almost hear how much he loves playing...(I think I found a new guitar hero!)

can't imagine going wrong following his advice...

You should check out his tonemerchants clinic DVD.

Antero

12-02-2005, 12:16 AM

Man, Tomo rocks the house. :cool:

Tomo

12-02-2005, 05:24 PM

Originally posted by mtlin
Interesting points 1-take-wonder and Antero! I really appreciate getting your perspective. I'm being to realize that if I approach this analytically, I'm just going to get in over my head. I think the best approach for me is in terms of feel. That's why I appreciate Tomo's soundclips so much. A sound clip is worth a thousand words.

I'm also happy to report that I've been practicing with a metronome -- doing some of the excercises that Tomo recommended and some toher stuff -- and I've already seen some improvement. This is fun!

mtlin

Hi Mtlin,

I am glad that my sound clips were useful. I am listening "Soul" Coleman Hawkins
(one of my heros) this record was recorded in 1958.... with Kenny Burrell on guitar
(please check out his phrasing touch!), Ray Bryant on piano...
you can hear many great jazz/blues tunes. great groove and feel.
Thank you for your report! Hang in there!

1-Take-Wonder,

Thank you for sharing your idea too. I like to see people
helping others. It's good to see that. Thank you so much!
Thank you for your comment on my playing. Yes, playing
guitar is my joy of life. I don't have chops. no no. I try to
play simple things with good feel.

Tom,

Thanks for recommend my TMC DVD. I am glad that you liked too.
You are one of great educated/tasteful musician here at TGP.
Thank you so much!

Antero,

Great comment of yours. Thanks a lot. I have been working my
inner rhythm for years. I am still work on my time feel.
Push & pull effect. Human sound... Work with great drummer..
great reward to your time feel too. Thanks for your word.

Tomo

Tim Bowen

12-05-2005, 02:16 AM

Originally posted by fr8_trane
Man I must be time retarded. I have always heard of musicians playing behind the beat, ahead of the beat and in the pocket. But all I know is a great groove when I hear one. Stewart Copeland's ahead of the beat? That's news to me - I think his grooves on "the world is running down, Walking on the moon, Voices in my head" and others are SMOKING but I just don't hear any rhythmic clash:confused:. I can hear 3 against 4 as a rhythmic clash or playing a solo with swing feel over straight 8ths (or vice versa) but I don't "get" ahead of or behind the beat. How the hell can a drummer be ahead or behind the beat when he IS the beat? In my limited world there is bad timing and "in the pocket". Now I understand that some advanced musicians play with time but to me this is on the same skill level as a Baseball player who intentionally slows his swing to hit to the opposite field. I would be satisfied just playing consistently in time and being able to switch from a straight eighth to a triplet feel or swing feel without skipping a beat. I would also like to be able to comp or solo in 5/4, 7/8 and other odd meters.

Please don't misconstrue my comments as relating to Mr. Copeland in any way as to suggest the opposite of "smoking" - I LOVE those records, in no small part due to Stewart's work, and please make no mistake in this regard. On the contrary, the musicians that I find to be most interesting are decidedly "quirky", particulary with regard to time, and in that regard, I stand by my observations, for what it's worth. Metronomes are great, but I don't own any records by Mr. Metronome!

Tomo

12-05-2005, 06:29 AM

Originally posted by Tim Bowen
Metronomes are great, but I don't own any records by Mr. Metronome!

Hi Tim,

You always write great stuff!

I love how you put it. I agree with you.

A metronome is not everything... That's why I suggest
people to LISTEN good records or go out to see
live music. We need to know "Taste" from the sound
first.

Thanks,

Tomo

fr8_trane

12-05-2005, 06:58 AM

Please don't misconstrue my comments as relating to Mr. Copeland in any way as to suggest the opposite of "smoking" - I LOVE those records, in no small part due to Stewart's work, and please make no mistake in this regard.

No offense taken - I never thought you were putting Stew down. I just don't hear his playing as "ahead of the beat" or clashing in any way with stings bass line. Maybe its a lack of sophistication on my part but I just hear a great groove.

dkaplowitz

12-05-2005, 10:21 PM

Originally posted by fr8_trane
I would also like to be able to comp or solo in 5/4, 7/8 and other odd meters.
Aside from listening to great artists who use lots of odd time sigs, like Frank Zappa, King Crimson, The Mahavishnu Orchestra, Rush, Yes, <insert prog rock/70s fusion band here>, this book (http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0769233724/qid=1133845864/sr=8-1/ref=pd_bbs_1/102-9776775-6971354?n=507846&s=books&v=glance) is quite helpful. It's just rhythm exercises, no note recognition. His original "Modern Reading Text" is a veritable rhythm bible.

Tomo

12-06-2005, 07:34 AM

Originally posted by dkaplowitz
Aside from listening to great artists who use lots of odd time sigs, like Frank Zappa, King Crimson, The Mahavishnu Orchestra, Rush, Yes, <insert prog rock/70s fusion band here>, this book (http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0769233724/qid=1133845864/sr=8-1/ref=pd_bbs_1/102-9776775-6971354?n=507846&s=books&v=glance) is quite helpful. It's just rhythm exercises, no note recognition. His original "Modern Reading Text" is a veritable rhythm bible.

Hi Dave,

Thanks for mentioning that book! Yes, that is one of my bibles.

I use page 4 & 5 from that book for my blues/funk class
as Berklee. Great rhythm exercises... but you can apply
'chord changes" to those, you will have unlimited ideas..

Thanks,

Tomo

Tim Bowen

12-08-2005, 03:53 AM

Hi Tim,

You always write great stuff!

And you always play great stuff.

- TB

StompBoxBlues

12-08-2005, 06:25 AM

Just some related observations (I liked especially the post about playing one note with metronome, over and over...that sounds like something I would try).

I've been playing and practicing for over 30 years. I learned playing along with cassettes (they had them back then even!) became a master at rewingind right to just before the part I was trying to nail came in.

Anyway, some years back I got a GT-1 guitar trainer, lets you play along with, and loop sections of a CD, or even slow it down but keeping pitch. This is the single best learning aid I have ever had. Makes us obsessives happy, keeps the poor family from suffering (they can barely hear the plink of an unpugged solid bdy going over the same riff 400 times) and you can start slow (-50%) and work your way up to speed. Which gives great insight.

The point is, with all my years playing, I realized after reading here one day about "killing the beat". Actually a misnomer, it is more like "killing the original phrasing". I understood it immidiately and recognized it was a problem I had.
Similar to how in the car you think you can sing along perfectly with a song, not realizing you were almost impreceptibly lagging to hear the vocals a fraction of a second to know when and where, or what tones to come in with.

It's a mental thing, and it is subtle...but when I tried playing a Clapton solo, or another thining "kill the beat" suddenly instead of hearing myself playing along with Clapton, I was only hearing me playing claptons' part. Suddenly two guitars turn into only one (until you flub a note or timing...then suddenly you hear yours and the correct one). This has helped me immensely! Check yourselves out next time you play along with something...then think "kill the beat" and try and beat...I need to do that to get there at the same time, the guitar to the notes.

Also, for solo playing (not playing solos, but playing alone) say with acoustic, a few years ago I finally did buy a metronome. Man, I knew I "liked to flow...not be a complete slave to the beat" but phew...I was convinced that metronome was broken...because when I got to a part I could play eaily, it always SLOWED DOWN...and when I got to a difficult part, it started racing.

Now how did that metronome know which parts were hard for me?

:)

Really, really, needed to work with one, and I hear improvements like I couldn't believe soon after using one. It is a great tool to point out to you where you need to work on parts as well...

PlexiBreath

12-11-2005, 08:35 PM

... His original "Modern Reading Text" is a veritable rhythm bible.
Dave and Tomo,
A big thanks to you guys for recommending these books. I just got both the other day and "Modern Reading Text" is really helping my sight reading already as well as the site reading lesson's in "Accelerate".

dkaplowitz

12-12-2005, 11:39 AM

Dave and Tomo,
A big thanks to you guys for recommending these books. I just got both the other day and "Modern Reading Text" is really helping my sight reading already as well as the site reading lesson's in "Accelerate".
Cool books, ain't they? I'm glad to hear you like them. When I was going to GIT they encouraged us (once we felt comfortable with one of the pages of the 4/4 book) to read the measures on the page backwards, diagonally, every other measure, etc. etc. The goal was to be able to actually internalize every pattern/rhythm so that the instant you saw it, you would know exactly what it would feel like. Hope you get a lot out of the books.

Dave

PlexiBreath

12-12-2005, 02:41 PM

When I was going to GIT they encouraged us.....
Dave,
So you went to GIT? Cool! That's what I'm preparing for. I'm going through MI's "Music Reading For Guitar" by David Oakes and really like it, but was looking for more material to practice with and the "Modern Reading Text" really does that well. I'll try that reading backward and jumping around measures which was also recommended at the beginning of the MI book. Courious, how good was your sight reading skills just before you started at GIT? I ask because it is my weakest skill, but I have until April 3 when I start at GIT to improve in this area. They say sight reading is no longer entry criteria for the school, but I don't want to be just barely getting by either, I've got a lot to work on between now and April.
Thanks,

dkaplowitz

12-12-2005, 03:39 PM

Courious, how good was your sight reading skills just before you started at GIT?
Note recognition in the first position (maybe some in the 5th on the top strings) and absolutely oblivious to rhythmic values, ties, rests, time signatures, etc. Sadly my reading didn't improve very much while I was there and I missed out on a lot for that reason alone. They did teach me enough to know how to learn how to read on my own though.

I have the Oakes book too. It's a good one, and I notice his is very rhythmically oriented. I assume that's b/c they told him to develop something in house instead of directing students to buy the Bellson book. I also like that he gets into position playing right away, whereas the Berklee method takes a long time in open position before moving on to any positions.

Dave's a nice guy, BTW, I liked his classes and I took some private lessons from him after I got out of GIT and he was always very cool, patient as well as willing and able to teach you just about anything on the guitar. If he's still teaching there, he's a very good guy to get to know better.

I went to GIT in 87-88. At that time, reading charts well would have been a much more useful skill than actual sight-reading. Pretty much from the first day we were on the bandstand reading simple to intermediate charts of rock, fusion and jazz standards. If you can get a Real Book (if you don't already have one) and just trudge through as much of it as you can (as part of your daily reading study), I think you'll be happy you did when you get there.

Good luck man! I wish I could go back there for a year knowing what I know now. That'll only happen if I win the lottery (or get an IT job at a good music school -- which I hope will happen some day).

Cheers,

Dave

PlexiBreath

12-12-2005, 05:54 PM

..... reading charts well would have been a much more useful skill than actual sight-reading. Pretty much from the first day we were on the bandstand reading simple to intermediate charts of rock, fusion and jazz standards. If you can get a Real Book (if you don't already have one) and just trudge through as much of it as you can (as part of your daily reading study), I think you'll be happy you did when you get there.

Thanks, I'll take that advice to heart, just the other day I got my copy of the Real Book. I'll start going through it along with my other studies.:RoCkIn
BTW, could you give me a heads up on any perticular pieces they go over a lot there?

..... I wish I could go back there for a year knowing what I know now.
What would you do differently if you went back now?

dkaplowitz

12-12-2005, 07:24 PM

Thanks, I'll take that advice to heart, just the other day I got my copy of the Real Book. I'll start going through it along with my other studies.:RoCkIn
BTW, could you give me a heads up on any perticular pieces they go over a lot there?

What would you do differently if you went back now?
They've probably changed curriculum quite a bit since I was there. The mistakes I made were allowing myself to get easily distracted. There were great country classes, classical classes, fingerstyle classes, the whole Yngwie thing had hit around that time, so everyone was playing 1,000,000 notes per second. Satch had just hit it big too, so a lot of people were doing that as well. I tried to get good at all of it and wound up cheating myself of some basic things I could have gotten out of being there. They tell you not to try to absorb it all and it's true. Just work on your weakest points, some nuts and bolts of musicianship, and don't fall into the master of all trades trap.

Al Dimeola when he was there kinda' smugly said something like why learn anything but jazz at a music school. It met with mixed feelings b/c there were a lot of rockers at GIT because of Paul Gilbert, Nick Nolan and some of the other rockers that were teaching there. But Al Di was kinda' right. You can learn rock and shredding anywhere/anytime, but the opportunity to play jazz and/or improvise with so many different people in an environment where everyone's trying to learn it isn't something one always gets after graduating and being in the real world looking to make back some of the money you just spent.

Another thing I would do over would be to use every opportunity I could to play with players of tons of different styles and levels of playing. I used to be afraid to bring my guitar into the rooms with Scott Henderson and Frank Gambale. I just felt like I couldn't hang. Indeed, I couldn't. But now I'd be more of a pain in the ass, bring my guitar everywhere and bud in to every jam and ask to play, and ask for help. I remember everyone felt that way. And in those small rooms, with like 12 people, Gambale and Scott H. would have to ask 2 or 3 times for volunteers to jam. It was a total waste that I was too inhibited to let it all hang out. That's the place to do it. How many opportunities to play with Scott Henderson will I have in my life? Maybe some, but a lot less likely than back then when I could have done it every other day until he kicked me out for playing so bad. ;)

I still got a ton out of it, but I think those things were more important. I don't regret it too much. GIT took my money and I was a pretty inexperienced player in general -- they knew it from the demo tape I sent, but they didn't suggest I get with a band, do some gigs and try again in a year or two. They just let me in. For being the level of player I was when I came in, I was a different player altogether when I got out.

Anyway, I'm rambling....good luck man!

1-Take-Wonder

12-13-2005, 08:35 AM

Al Dimeola when he was there kinda' smugly said something like why learn anything but jazz at a music school. It met with mixed feelings b/c there were a lot of rockers at GIT because of Paul Gilbert, Nick Nolan and some of the other rockers that were teaching there. But Al Di was kinda' right. You can learn rock and shredding anywhere/anytime, but the opportunity to play jazz and/or improvise with so many different people in an environment where everyone's trying to learn it isn't something one always gets after graduating and being in the real world looking to make back some of the money you just spent.

I'm kind of running into this same "all roads lead to and from jazz" question as I work on my playing. For me some of the coolest players in any given genre have this in their background.

not to steal the thread (and I imagine this is relevant to Plexibreath as he tries to choose his track) but what's the consensus on focusing on jazz in the school setting as a framework for being a better player in any genre down the road?

PlexiBreath

12-13-2005, 09:37 AM

Hey thanks Dave,
That makes a lot of sense. I mainly intend to work on things I'm weakest at, I'm a rocker/blueser and have found my "voice" there, so why bother working on that stuff at all?

But the three things on guitar that are the most foriegn to me are Jazz, Country, and sight reading. I figure if I hit these hard and heavy from the start of my time at GIT, then I can branch out from there. Fingerstyle acoustic, Rockabilly, gypsy jazz are other areas I'd explore next. Now that they offer an 18 month AA degree, that's what I'll be taking, maybe the extra time will help me round out more styles.

1-Take,
I think you are right about "all roads lead to and from jazz", there is so much disipline, nuance and complexity to it that it's beome my main focus. I have a feeling that getting deep into jazz guitar first, then leveraging that knowledge should allow me to pick up other styles like country a lot quicker, rather than the other way around of working up to jazz through other styles. Over the last 6 months I have been learning some jazz standards, but at this point I'm just learning the how of playing jazz progressions, I'm still struggling with the why these progressions work the way they do.

Jazz certainly isn't my first love, and I'll probably get out of GIT still being a rocker at heart, but it's something I've finally really come to enjoy playing.

1-Take-Wonder

12-13-2005, 09:57 AM

I have a feeling that getting deep into jazz guitar first, then leveraging that knowledge should allow me to pick up other styles like country a lot quicker,

listen to Hank Garland. Perfect example of how jazz phrasing is used to make country more interesting. Jim Campilongo's another guy with a great blended twang/hipster jazz voice (IMO)

You could just learn the riffs, but if you had worked on the theory and voicing in the jazz context where it wasn't an accent phrase, you could reproduce in a country or rock context without even thinking about it i.e. "oh here's where I splice my jazz riff in"

Best of luck to you at GIT!!!

PlexiBreath

12-13-2005, 10:14 AM

Jim Campilongo's another guy with a great blended twang/hipster jazz voice (IMO)
1-Take,
Actually my first voyage into jazz guitar is from two instructional cassette tape lessons from Jim Campilongo, one was the classic "All Blues" the other was his "Bb triads" lesson. He's a great player and teacher, and you gotta dig a Tele slinging jazzer.
Thanks for the best of luck at GIT too.:dude

1-Take-Wonder

12-13-2005, 10:41 AM

Thanks for the best of luck at GIT too.:dude

keep us updated on your progress...

I (re) entered the realm of semi-professional players this year and hope to earn a living at it one day as well. I was enrolled and ready to get started at AIM (Atlanta's offshoot of GIT) but the day job was creating too many conflicts :BITCH so I'm having to take it a bit slower :BITCH than I wanted to :BITCH (and I have a few anger issues over it now :))

Seriously...go for it, work hard, learn all you can, and have fun...

PlexiBreath

12-13-2005, 12:44 PM

keep us updated on your progress...

I (re) entered the realm of semi-professional players this year and hope to earn a living at it one day as well. I was enrolled and ready to get started at AIM (Atlanta's offshoot of GIT) but the day job was creating too many conflicts :BITCH so I'm having to take it a bit slower :BITCH than I wanted to :BITCH (and I have a few anger issues over it now :))

Seriously...go for it, work hard, learn all you can, and have fun...
I was almost enrolled in GIT way back in 1977 when it started. I was 20 years old at the time and toured the facilities, Howard Roberts asked me to play something on guitar to see where I was at, Joe Dorio was in the room and at one point Howard was distracted by a call from Joe Pass about something, (that was a very cool experience.). It made me feel good when Howard complemented my note bending technique and that he could hear the chord progression moving under my soloing. But he said I needed to be able to sight read at a modest level in order to enter the school. Well, life got in the way and I never got around to it. Now I'm an Engineer at Cisco Systems, 48 years old, I've sold my home to pull out the equity in order to finance this dream, (thank gawd for the housing bubble), I resign from Cisco on my birthday January 6th and will get moved in to the LA area in order to start school April 3rd. At 48 it's a bit old to be changing careers, but I'm not looking to become a rock star, just a gigging musician taking whatever jobs come up to put a roof over my head and food on the table. I figure life's too short to continue in a job I've lost the passion for, so time for a change. I'll let you know how it goes.

dkaplowitz

12-13-2005, 01:07 PM

Good luck, Plexi. There was a guy there in his 60s when I went who was a student and he seemed to be enjoying himself quite a bit. It's great to be able to follow a dream like that. Congrats on being able to pull it off.

BC742007

12-28-2005, 10:17 AM

Ok I have never heard of any of this. How in the world do you play off beat and make it sound good and right? Does on top of the beat mean right on time?

Balok

12-28-2005, 06:36 PM

I find that players who get ahead of the beat are playing with their heads instead of their ears...in other words, not listening to the drummer, and not listening to themselves. Thats why taping is so helpful - you can devote all your attention to listening and suddenly hear all the disconnection.

I find that singing what I am playing gets me back in touch with my real internal voice. This also takes your ego out of the equation, which is another groove killer because the ego wants to dazzle. This means a calculated move that seldom sounds heartfelt...not heartfelt, not grooving.
It can happen to great players occasionally. I once saw Eric Johnson play an entire section ahead and out of the pocket.

Lucidology

10-09-2006, 03:38 PM

Extending great thanks to Cap'n Fingers for finding this ... :AOK

'tis always the right time to reincarnate,
such useful & functional info...
as this thread has to offer...!!

willhutch

10-09-2006, 06:54 PM

Valuable thread. I'm copying in my post on the "Playing behind the beat" thread. Since the original poster has the ability to view and manipulate a recorded waveform, this might be of interest to him:

I had an enlightening experience about 6 years ago that taught me a lot about what I call "microtiming".

After laying a rythm track in the studio, we took a look at the waveform of my track in theprotools interface. When comparing my track to the click track I discovered two things: 1) my timing was very regular 2) I was hitting on the front edge of the beat.

Using the magic of modern technology, I was able to pull my track back and forward in relation to the click. I found that by pulling my track back 11 milliseconds, the groove sounded just right when the drums and bass (which were referenced to the click) were added to the mix.

I started working on being able to manipulate placement of notes on the beat. I kept a metronome in my car. When I'd drive, I'd snap my fingers to the beat. To play behind the beat, I'd pretend I wanted to slow the metronome down. Of course, the metronome wouldn't slow down, but I'd start lagging behind the beat. I'd then practice lagging more or less. After a while I internalized the feeling of hitting at different places on the beat.

Try it. If you are able to play with regularity, you'll be able to get the feel of "microtiming". It's not all that hard.

In live situations, trying to slow that band down works to find a groove somewhat behind the beat. When you get it, the measures take on a full, pregnant quality.