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Paul Bacon
11-25-2012, 08:24 AM
I’ve memorized and have been working to bring up to speed both Dickey and Duane’s solos from this Fillmore East recording for, probably, five months. I have always loved this song. At my playing level Dickey's was do-able. Not so, Duane’s. I did not have the chops.

Working on Duane’s solo has brought my playing to new heights—big time. I’m 60 years old and have been playing since age 14. The biggest technique improvement has been with my picking speed and accuracy. I didn’t know I had it in me. I sifted through archived TGP posts to find the help I’ve needed to accomplish that. I’ve also learned to do 5 beats over the space of 4 and come out perfectly on the 1 of the next measure. I had to develop both strength and a light touch in my left hand as well—in ’92 my ring and pinky fingers went paralized from a cervical operation. I’ve learned too many things to post here. I can’t believe where I’ve come in the last five months from working on this solo.

The song clocks in at 111 bpm. I’m just now getting fluid with it at 105 bpm. The big challenge now are those 16th note triplets at the first peak of Duane’s solo. Getting those clean and articulate (like he does) is a bear. A Gear Page post made me aware of the technique of a slight wrist rotation (like turning a doorknob) while picking at that speed has given me a glimpse of the light at the end of the tunnel. It’s just a matter of practice at this point. How much?—I have no idea.

And my question (among so many) is this. Are the solo’s in this song pre-prepared? I can only imagine that they are, but I do know that they were an improvisational band. But some of the solo’s on this record seem just so very carefully crafted. And I just can’t believe that all those varied and different phrases were springing like lightening in a momentary instance! I also read that they prepped for this recording on an island somewhere for a couple of months before the concert. I’ve tried to find other recordings of IMOER that happened in the same time period to compare to this particular recording, but haven’t been able to.

Would or could anyone shed some light on this for me? Or even any other thoughts on the topic would be very welcome.

Paul

guitarjazz
11-25-2012, 08:47 AM
There are other live recording of the Bros. playing it. They were improvisers so it was different every time though I bet you'd hear some of the same licks from version to version.

Jon Silberman
11-25-2012, 09:21 AM
I've heard several other live versions. The solos are not identical night to night though as guitarjazz says, you can hear repeated licks.

guitarjazz
11-25-2012, 09:32 AM
There's some videos of them playing at the Fillmore floating around. Might be on YouTube.

Axis29
11-25-2012, 11:16 AM
I know that I am a 'mostly' improvisational player. But it's only because I'm not smart enough to remember everything I did yesterday. Before I unveil anything live, I've practiced it a number of times. I obviously don't mean jam stuff, but band oriented stuff.

Being as how those boys were so much more talented, musically smarter and overall more talented than I hoep to ever b, I bet they practiced everything a good bit before unveiling it. I doubt the solos were canned, but they were familiar enough with the chord progression and sounds they wanted, as well as what the other players were going to do, that little of it was a true surprise. Sure it was spur of the moment to a point, but as mentioned, I'm sure there were some canned phrases for the song... and we all know we tend to find stock phrases that make appearance sin our playing elsewhere. It's just some of you (and certainly those two!) have a lot more than I've got! LOL

Paul Bacon
11-25-2012, 11:45 AM
I've heard other live versions after the Fillmore concerts, and they are different, yes. I'm more wondering if, that weekend, each show was a different solo.

I've seen all the YouTube video's of those concerts. I think I read that there's only 18 minutes of video from those concerts. I can find none of Elizabeth Reed.

All the different album versions of the Fillmore Concerts use the same two show's solo's. I've listened to each album. And the liner notes say so as well.

You can also hear Duane use many of the same licks in Wipping Post --that 16th note triplet thing stands out among others.

It amazes me that his musical ideas/phrases come out so fast. He never misses a beat, literally. Although there is one phrase in that solo that ends up being on the off-beat that I'm pretty sure he meant to be on the beat.

I guess I shouldn't find it so unusual that musicians should be able to make their solo's so coherent. I'm just in awe of that ability.

Any more or other thoughts would be welcome for sure.

Paul

Paul Bacon
11-25-2012, 11:52 AM
I doubt the solos were canned, but they were familiar enough with the chord progression and sounds they wanted, as well as what the other players were going to do, that little of it was a true surprise.

Yes, there is a place where Berry Oakley playes exactly the same notes along with Duane. It's not possible that this particular spot I'm thinking of was a co-incidence :)

flavaham
11-26-2012, 11:06 AM
Yes, there is a place where Berry Oakley playes exactly the same notes along with Duane. It's not possible that this particular spot I'm thinking of was a co-incidence :)


Not possible? I don't know about that. When you're jamming, especially with people who you know well in a musical sense, it's not at all impossible to end up at the same spot at the same time.

I'm sure that as much as these guys played these tunes the same riffs would pop up here and there. I'd imagine though that most, MOST of the solos were on the spot. For me, that's the goal and I don't find it all that out of the question to think that guys who played at this level could pull off some amazing music in this setting.

Along these lines, I've never sat and tried to learn an ABB solo note for note with one exception (that being One Way Out). I think there are phrases that you might want to throw in there from each tune but overall these solos should be improvised. Liz Reed is an amazing tune. If I were to play it live I think the only parts that I'd focus on would be the lead in of each solo and the outro to each. Other than that, it's up to you to make it what you will. If I want to hear Dickey and Duane, I'll throw on Fillmore East. Just my .02

Paul Bacon
11-26-2012, 04:52 PM
Along these lines, I've never sat and tried to learn an ABB solo note for note with one exception (that being One Way Out).

I, too, learned that solo (just beautiful.) But I started learning it many years ago, and realized when I started learning the Fillmore version that the old version I started on was identical to the Fillmore except for 1 measure (at least on the first time through the changes--at the time I got no further.) So obviously Dickey knew before hand what he was going to play.

I think there are phrases that you might want to throw in there from each tune but overall these solos should be improvised.

I can agree that, in the end, I'd rather make my own way through it--it's a lot of fun, but what I have come to as a result of memorizing this solo would not otherwise have been achieved in as short a time.

I would also, if performing it live, have something pretty well planned out ahead of time so I wasn't just fumbling around in the dark. And I imagine Duane must have too. Learning it note for note made me realize how carefully constructed the solo was.

I was reading the "memorization" thread and came upon this:
One thing I have realized: Having MEMORIZED that part allows you to be more INTERPRETIVE. You know your way, so its easier to put emotion and yourself into it. Much easier. This makes complete sense. It is even, after all, how an actor practices his craft.

Liz Reed is an amazing tune. If I were to play it live I think the only parts that I'd focus on would be the lead in of each solo and the outro to each. Other than that, it's up to you to make it what you will. If I want to hear Dickey and Duane, I'll throw on Fillmore East. Just my .02

If it isn't Dickey and Duane (and Greg) then what makes Elizabeth Reed such an amazing song, as you say. Are you saying it's the just the song's structure?

I know they were an improvisational band, but this was an important recording for them. Their first two albums had not done as well as they'd hoped. I really would love to hear another show's version of all the songs done that weekend.

Respectfully,
Paul

VigilAndy
11-26-2012, 08:57 PM
If you listen to the studio version you can hear the elements that are strictly constructed. For the most part these are within the live version too. But beyond that they each stretch out the solos more and build on these themes. I would guess that some of this stretching was probably based on things they had stumbled on in previous shows or rehearsals and some was probably off the cuff based on the energy of that moment. I think I remember reading that Duane worked very hard at Muscle Shoals to construct solos when he was a session player. If that's true then he knew how to prepare for "improvisation" and in that sense it was wasn't totally off the cuff. All I can say is I've had 20 years to do my homework on Elizabeth Reed and my chops always suffer in the solo because I can't get Duane out of my head!

John Thigpen
11-26-2012, 09:02 PM
Different song, but there are several alternative versions of Statesboro Blues out on Youtube. Because they're live recordings, they do sound different, but many of Duane's slide licks from the Fillmore version also appear on the other versions. I'm specifically referring to the fills in the first couple of verses.

Guitars1
11-26-2012, 10:55 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3oNZo9A91FY

Paul Bacon
11-27-2012, 05:10 AM
I think I remember reading that Duane worked very hard at Muscle Shoals to construct solos when he was a session player.
That's very interesting.

All I can say is I've had 20 years to do my homework on Elizabeth Reed and my chops always suffer in the solo because I can't get Duane out of my head!
Yup, with all my efforts, that's what I've come to as well.:)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3oNZo9A91FY (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3oNZo9A91FY)
At the very end of the video, Dickey uses the same basic repeating figure that Duane used to end his solo on the Fillmore recording. Easily recognized by the other band members and maintaining the excitement his solo had built to. A perfect way to segue

johns048
11-27-2012, 10:07 AM
Greg called it "Hittin' the Note". If some one asked me what my favorite song is, I think I'd say Liz Reed. I know most of it but never bothered to learn it note for note, so cheers to you guys for doing so... But I think Duane would have said "make it your own"

The Filmore recording is just magical, to think that a band could be that tight "jamming" and they just so happened to capture it just blows my mind. I think it's the best live recording of all time. Then again I'm a big ABB fan.

Twitchey
11-27-2012, 10:30 AM
That's very interesting.


Yup, with all my efforts, that's what I've come to as well.:)


At the very end of the video, Dickey uses the same basic repeating figure that Duane used to end his solo on the Fillmore recording. Easily recognized by the other band members and maintaining the excitement his solo had built to. A perfect way to segue

Agreed.

Most of the live AB solos have 'finishing up' licks or 'sign post licks' that indicate a solo is over. Often they appear to played once by the soloist and then all together as part of a bridge to the next section. This is a useful tool within improvisational rock music and easy to identify if you are looking out for it (and likewise very effective for live performance as it can sound and look seamless)

johns048
11-27-2012, 10:51 AM
Agreed.

Most of the live AB solos have 'finishing up' licks or 'sign post licks' that indicate a solo is over. Often they appear to played once by the soloist and then all together as part of a bridge to the next section. This is a useful tool within improvisational rock music and easy to identify if you are looking out for it (and likewise very effective for live performance as it can sound and look seamless)

Great point, I play whipping post in my band, and for some reason (the time sig i think) it's the most challenging song we've tried as a band. But to your point, I play the second solo, and the high a octave part is the signal to go to the climb up.

flavaham
11-29-2012, 05:02 AM
If it isn't Dickey and Duane (and Greg) then what makes Elizabeth Reed such an amazing song, as you say. Are you saying it's the just the song's structure?

Respectfully,
Paul

What makes it an amazing song by an amazing band is the fact that they were able to pull it of like this. It's really just a few very basic chord vamps with some hooks that lead in and out of each section. No big deal really on the surface, but a lesser band wouldn't have been able to do this song justice. I wouldn't complain about listening to Liz Reed from the Fillmore album at all, so, yes, Dickey, Duane, Gregg, etc. all contribute to making this an amazing tune. My point was that if you are going to play it, you should have something of your own to say within the context of the song itself, not just play their (amazing) solos.

I think we often start to learn a song and decide that since we can play it (now) that it's no longer a big deal, but we lose sight of the fact that someone did sit and write this. They did come up with some of these solos in that very moment (which is why I like to go see bands who improvise). This type of song is intended to be a vehicle for each member to be able to make their own statement and say what they will. This is why I don't want to just hear someone play Duane's solo. I'm not saying that I don't want to hear Duane's solo. I'm saying that if I want to hear it, I'll put on the record. If I'm watching your band, I want to hear YOUR solo.

I think learning someone else's improvised line and regurgitating it is defeating the purpose and taking the interpretation and spirit of the tune out of it. I don't mind transcribing for the sake of analyzing and trying to find out WHY they played it that way (although I don't often do it myself). I just think that you can run into other hurdles by doing this. A few people on here have already said that they can't get the recorded solos out of their head when they are playing it. To me, that's reason enough NOT to learn the solos note for note.

With any song, you will have phrases that you might want to start a solo with or use as a cue that we're going back to the head, but, IMHO, these sections should really be used to say what you want and express how you feel in that very moment.

Again, just my .02

9fingers
11-29-2012, 10:02 AM
Learning someone else's solo may not be so much for the goal of repeating it live as it is for adding to my own musical vocabulary. Dickey & Duane used bits of pieces of stuff they copied from lots of other players to be able to improvise and compose the way they did. More power to the OP for working hard to learn it. He will grow mightily as his own player as a result.

flavaham
11-29-2012, 01:17 PM
Learning someone else's solo may not be so much for the goal of repeating it live as it is for adding to my own musical vocabulary. Dickey & Duane used bits of pieces of stuff they copied from lots of other players to be able to improvise and compose the way they did. More power to the OP for working hard to learn it. He will grow mightily as his own player as a result.

I'm not knocking learning someone's solo. That wasn't my point. You can't always figure out how they look at it without doing this. For me, I don't do it much. I would rather use my ears for fear of regurgitating other people's improvised lines.

Look at it this way. I'm at the bottom of a hill. There's a path, maybe two (We could call them Dickey and Duane in this case), beaten into the side of the hill that I can take to the top. At the top is an amazing view where you can sit and enjoy the company of the other people who climbed up there with you. It's not wrong to take one of those paths up, but just because someone beat this path into the hill does not mean it's the ONLY way up...

johns048
11-29-2012, 01:24 PM
^ In this case, it also might not be the easiest path :)

flavaham
11-29-2012, 01:27 PM
^ In this case, it also might not be the easiest path :)

Very true. Some of us have more experience than others with hiking and the like...

Paul Bacon
11-29-2012, 03:11 PM
Well, as 9fingers said, learning others' stuff is how they learned. And stumbling around here in the brush at the bottom of the mountain looking for the pathway up, wasn't getting me anywhere. It wasn't until I bought Transcribe and began learning solo's etc. that my playing began to take off.

Just how improvised is improvisation anyway? Not to parse this too much, but we're always working from a tool bag whether it be our own or someone elses.

One of the guys here shared some of his files with me (thanks again, R.) of recordings of the band with Dickey and Duane doing Elizabeth Reed. At least one of them was from another one of those Fillmore shows, I'm 98% sure. Judging from the lines they were playing, the other bootleg versions he sent were very near that time period, one of those may have also been from that weekend (can you say horns? From the sound, it's no wonder Tom Dowd said "No way!) But they were very interesting to hear.

First, the answer to my question is yes, the solos were improvised.

Dickeys' varied from one to the other more than Duanes', it seemed. Many of their phrases were the same but used in different places in the solo, or repeated either more or fewer times within the solo. The phrases changed rythmically sometimes but you could hear the similarity to another version. Parts that they'd "worked out" to some degree along the way were highlighted within the solo or developed to differing degrees in each version. Etc.

It was enlightening for me to hear this stuff. I guess the fluidity of their solos came from doing the song so many times, experimenting, and choosing. Having heard the other versions I can better understand the progression from good to great.

My goal, personally, is to get fluid in my improvising. If reaching into someones elses toolbag to borrow some tools is what it takes to get me there, it's fine with me. It was the advice I gleaned from this board that got me transcribing in the first place.

Paul

flavaham
11-30-2012, 12:41 AM
Right on. I'm not knocking transcribing at all. Again, I really don't do it, but I know that it is a great tool for getting into the mind of amazing artists.

As for improvisation at the level of a soloist, I think it is safe to say that a lot of players have riffs that just fall under their fingers. Some just have so many that it takes longer for them to get back to that same idea again, and it seems less likely that they repeat themselves.

In essence, improvisation is playing something that wasn't planned. When you get to an improvised part of a song, you may play a line or riff that you've played before, but it wasn't premeditated. SRV did it. ABB did it. Jerry did it. Trey Anastasio does it. Etc... We all have a tool box and pull from it when we play. That's fine.

A painter doesn't create colors as he goes. He lays out a pallet full of the colors that he wants to use to create the painting. He's used them again and probably decided on these particular shades based on past paintings and paintings of other artists who have inspired him/her. Chances are that he could try to paint the same landscape a hundred times and never have two identical paintings though.

flavaham
11-30-2012, 12:44 AM
Also, I used to work construction. Most guys put their names on their tools. If you're going to steal them I'd recommend scratching their name off and putting yours on it!

Twitchey
11-30-2012, 01:01 AM
Right on. I'm not knocking transcribing at all. Again, I really don't do it, but I know that it is a great tool for getting into the mind of amazing artists.

As for improvisation at the level of a soloist, I think it is safe to say that a lot of players have riffs that just fall under their fingers. Some just have so many that it takes longer for them to get back to that same idea again, and it seems less likely that they repeat themselves.

In essence, improvisation is playing something that wasn't planned. When you get to an improvised part of a song, you may play a line or riff that you've played before, but it wasn't premeditated. SRV did it. ABB did it. Jerry did it. Trey Anastasio does it. Etc... We all have a tool box and pull from it when we play. That's fine.

A painter doesn't create colors as he goes. He lays out a pallet full of the colors that he wants to use to create the painting. He's used them again and probably decided on these particular shades based on past paintings and paintings of other artists who have inspired him/her. Chances are that he could try to paint the same landscape a hundred times and never have two identical paintings though.

well said.

There is always the design by accident element. Most of the riffs that are a ‘signature’ part of my sound (some would probably describe this less kindly) came about this way, either during practice or during live performance.

During practice when this happens, normally I will either carry on playing, and hope that I remember it or just stop to quickly repeat (and hope I remember it).

During performance I am a faithful practitioner of the play a mistake once, play / repeat the same mistake (exactly the same) a couple of times to give the façade that it was intentional … or at least weave the mistake back in to the thematic tapestry of the solo.

It’s been 15 years since I learned and performed any Allmans stuff but believe that this exact thing happens during one of the Fillmore versions of Elizabeth Reed or Whipping post. An ‘eggy’ not is hit (by Duane I think), but then re-emphasised.

I’m at work now but will try to listen to some versions on youtube etc. to see if I can identify it.

Twitchey
11-30-2012, 01:27 AM
Okay - the mistake is not in Elizabeth Reed Fillmore '71. But as I listend through I made a note of all the 'Flag Riffs' used by the band to indicate parts of a solo or the end of a solo:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DcpwMZKPsQM

Intro to first solo is completely structured
5:37 – 1st ‘flag riff’ by itself, then everyone joins in which leads to keyboard solo
7:38 – ‘keyboard flag riff’, then repeated twice with band which leads to Duane
10:26 – Duane does his signature pentatonic triplets (this tells the band that the breakdown is coming)
11:58 – Final ‘flag riff’ which tells the band that the change is coming. The ‘flag riff’ finishes with two quick single tone bends for the drum interlude followed by structured end to the tune

flavaham
11-30-2012, 02:02 AM
These riffs are what I would definitely put back into the song if I were to cover it. The rest I'd mostly be improvising. I used to play along to this song back in the day and these were some of the only riffs that I really tried to nail. A couple others would be the beginning of the solos. If I'm using the analogy of the hill from above, I'd start the solos by starting up the path that was already there, but quickly end up veering off and carving my own path up the hill.

Paul Bacon
11-30-2012, 06:15 AM
but I know that it is a great tool for getting into the mind of amazing artists.

This is the exact experience I was having as I worked on those two solo's. Question after question came to me that I wanted to ask Duane or Dickey. It this point, I'd settle for asking Butch.

Also, I used to work construction. Most guys put their names on their tools. If you're going to steal them I'd recommend scratching their name off and putting yours on it!

I, too, work in construction (unfortunately.) That's why I specifically said "borrow." I thank the owner profusely and carefully put the tool back when I'm done --hard to do with a lick, I know.

Okay - the mistake is not in Elizabeth Reed Fillmore '71. But as I listend through I made a note of all the 'Flag Riffs' used by the band to indicate parts of a solo or the end of a solo:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DcpwMZKPsQM (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DcpwMZKPsQM)

While you've got that YouTube link up there, --I posted this question a few months ago and it didn't generate much interest. Listen to 9:52 to 9:54 --middle of Duane's solo. There is a distinct third guitar in there. The third guitars' notes are on the A string, going between notes D and E. It happens again a few seconds later, but you can't hear it as distinctly. WTF?

It's not the organ, Dickey's chording, and Duane's busy with other notes (so is Berry.)

The Fillmore version is a combination of two different shows and the splice was done at the start of Duane's solo according to Tom Dowd. So what was this? A mistake in the mixing? Some channel slider not pulled down in time, or what?! I think I found the Holy Grail!!

Lephty
11-30-2012, 10:06 AM
My own feeling on transcribing solos is that it can be a great way to begin to internalize the way a good player approaches a solo. Obviously you'll eventually want to get beyond that, but it's not a bad place to start. Jazz educators certainly recommend transcribing great solos as a way to learn to improvise on a tune, and I have certainly learned to pick bluegrass (well, sorta...I have a LONG way to go) by copping solos from Doc Watson, Tony Rice, etc. I mean, if you're going to learn, you might as well learn from the masters, right?

A better way to approach it (and again, this is just what has worked for me) is to learn the general gist of the solo--what scale/mode is getting used, where the guitarist is on the fretboard, how the phrases are put together, etc. If there are certain licks in the solo that are eluding you, or that sound particularly sweet to you, then learn them, and learn why they work and why they're placed where they are, and then try to learn how you can apply the same lick in different situations. Then, you work on coming up with variations on those licks, and eventually you realize you're improvising on your own, without a net.

I should also add that you should spend a LOT of time listening to good solos by all kinds of different players (most of us are probably doing this already, but it's worth pointing out the value in it).

Just don't be fooled--there's no real shortcut, and it can be a frustrating process, but with work, it WILL happen.

djdrdave
11-30-2012, 02:05 PM
Can't wait to listen to this tune again. We played Whipping Post in a band and I learned the solo note for note off the recording. Can't go wrong with the Allman Brothers. I always forget what an influence they are on me, of course I'm just a hobbyist hack.

Are there any recordings of Dereck Trucks playing this with the Allman brothers.

johns048
11-30-2012, 02:09 PM
Can't wait to listen to this tune again. We played Whipping Post in a band and I learned the solo note for note off the recording. Can't go wrong with the Allman Brothers. I always forget what an influence they are on me, of course I'm just a hobbyist hack.

Are there any recordings of Dereck Trucks playing this with the Allman brothers.

are there?!?! i think he's done 1 or 2 studio albums with them. They also do instant live recordings of all their shows. I have a boston show from last year, and hartford from this past summer (with santana on some select tracks!!) PM me and I'll try to share them with you.

flavaham
12-02-2012, 04:20 AM
I'm listening to IMOLR from Red Rocks '06 and these solos are totally on the spot improv. No doubt.

Perhaps, and this is just a thought, no facts to back it, but PERHAPS, knowing that they would be recording for a live record, they might have composed a few parts that they wanted to play ahead of time. For the most part though, when you go see ABB, you're getting straight improv. I'm pretty sure they don't (or didn't back in the day) use a set list. This would tell me further that they are going totally off the cuff.

Paul Bacon
12-02-2012, 08:54 AM
Perhaps, and this is just a thought, no facts to back it, but PERHAPS, knowing that they would be recording for a live record, they might have composed a few parts that they wanted to play ahead of time. For the most part though, when you go see ABB, you're getting straight improv. I'm pretty sure they don't (or didn't back in the day) use a set list. This would tell me further that they are going totally off the cuff.

This was the whole point of the question in my first post:

And my question (among so many) is this. Are the solo’s in this song pre-prepared? I can only imagine that they are, but I do know that they were an improvisational band. But some of the solo’s on this record seem just so very carefully crafted. And I just can’t believe that all those varied and different phrases were springing like lightening in a momentary instance! I also read that they prepped for this recording on an island somewhere for a couple of months before the concert. I’ve tried to find other recordings of IMOER that happened in the same time period to compare to this particular recording, but haven’t been able to.
Paul

Both Dickey and Duane's solo in the Fillmore recording of Elizabeth Reed sound composed --Dickey's more than Duane's. I wanted to compare them to other recordings done that weekend --if any existed. One of the files that was subsequently sent to me, and sounding very much like it was recorded during one of those shows (as in that weekend), made me think they were improvised --as in same licks different emphasis and placement. But now I'm not so sure. The more I work on this solo, the more convinced I become that Duane knew where he was going beforehand (--and so did Dickey). I think you'd really have to learn the solo to see that.

flavaham
12-02-2012, 12:12 PM
That's fair. I think you would find, either way, that they might play similar riffs durring the same song based on when they were played. Meaning, during 1970, the solos would probably be similar. Now, fast forward to 1977 and maybe Dickey's solo is a little different, but similar to other 1977 versions, based on how he was tending to play at the time. Make sense?

Paul Bacon
12-02-2012, 01:39 PM
Oh yes, absolutely. I'm just suggesting that, given the importance of this up and coming series of shows at the Fillmore (for reasons I mentioned before), that they pre-planned at lot more than they otherwise would have.

flavaham
12-02-2012, 01:44 PM
I think we can all comfortably settle on this. haha

JimmyD
12-02-2012, 03:06 PM
Alot of the solo sections were preplanned. They did not make that shit up on the spot.

shrp11
12-02-2012, 08:54 PM
Oh yes, absolutely. I'm just suggesting that, given the importance of this up and coming series of shows at the Fillmore (for reasons I mentioned before), that they pre-planned at lot more than they otherwise would have.

Paul,

Splicing together different takes for the best solos on jazz records was very common throughout the 60's and 70's. Bill Evans was famous for this and even the great classical pianist Glen Gould assembled multiple takes together to form completed solo takes (and he was playing written music).

Which brings me to ...

It's entirely probably Duane had this solo in his arsenal essentially composed and ready to go, why wouldn't he? They knew this was going to be recorded and laid down for all to hear for ever and ever - here we are 41 years later still marveling at it. We'll never know for certain.

But, who knows ... a week before this show, there's an incredible solo (on youtube) from the 2/28/71 concert at the Brewer Fieldhouse. Duane's solo here is 180 degrees different and some ways more interesting than the fillmore east shows (however, if I were recording both for posterity, I think the fillmore would win out for its better construction).

Duane was a highly intelligent guy - with a jazzman's gift for phrasing. It's too bad he couldn't have escaped the pitfalls of his youthful recklessness ... I can't imagine where he's be today if he had.

newb3fan
12-03-2012, 05:52 AM
There are other live recording of the Bros. playing it. They were improvisers so it was different every time though I bet you'd hear some of the same licks from version to version.

^^^This.
Duane and Dickey would work through parts together. At least that is what I've read. They would work through the specific harmonies of parts that they wanted to get on record. For example, the A & B sections of IMOER. But for the jam sections they would just go for it. You hear some of the same licks and passages because that is there style ringing through but you typically never hear the same solo.

Keep in mind these guys along with a few other bands were essentially the first "jam band" style players. The jams ebb and flow and go in somewhat different directions every time.

My band plays this tune along with several other ones by ABB. I like them so much because of this. You and play the tune differently every time you play it and create your own thing based on what you are feeling in the moment.

Paul Bacon
12-03-2012, 06:46 AM
Paul,

Splicing together different takes for the best solos on jazz records was very common throughout the 60's and 70's. Bill Evans was famous for this and even the great classical pianist Glen Gould assembled multiple takes together to form completed solo takes (and he was playing written music).

Which brings me to ...

It's entirely probably Duane had this solo in his arsenal essentially composed and ready to go, why wouldn't he? They knew this was going to be recorded and laid down for all to hear for ever and ever - here we are 41 years later still marveling at it. We'll never know for certain.

But, who knows ... a week before this show, there's an incredible solo (on youtube) from the 2/28/71 concert at the Brewer Fieldhouse. Duane's solo here is 180 degrees different and some ways more interesting than the fillmore east shows (however, if I were recording both for posterity, I think the fillmore would win out for its better construction).

Duane was a highly intelligent guy - with a jazzman's gift for phrasing. It's too bad he couldn't have escaped the pitfalls of his youthful recklessness ... I can't imagine where he's be today if he had.

My feelings exactly! Thanks for that.


My band plays this tune along with several other ones by ABB. I like them so much because of this. You and play the tune differently every time you play it and create your own thing based on what you are feeling in the moment.

...and sometimes your solo comes out "not so good," and sometimes "brilliant." Given the importance of this up and coming new album, and the lackluster sales of their first two releases, I doubt Duane would have wanted to take a chance on the solos.

Remember, too, that, on this album, there were lots of other places to improvise --the end of "You Don't Love Me" and the end of "Whipping Post" for starters.

sksmith66
12-03-2012, 06:56 AM
Are there any recordings of Dereck Trucks playing this with the Allman brothers.
there are an ever loving crap ton of audience recordings and instant live recording of Derek playing this tune.

sksmith66
12-03-2012, 07:11 AM
I also read that they prepped for this recording on an island somewhere for a couple of months before the concert. I’ve tried to find other recordings of IMOER that happened in the same time period to compare to this particular recording, but haven’t been able to.


Oh yes, absolutely. I'm just suggesting that, given the importance of this up and coming series of shows at the Fillmore (for reasons I mentioned before), that they pre-planned at lot more than they otherwise would have.

I am pretty sure they didn't spend a few months on an island preparing for this concert. the shows were recorded on march 12th and 13th of '71. They had a pretty constant touring schedule leading up to that. They played roughly 180 shows from the summer of '69 through the end of 1970 and kept the same schedule in early '71. They played at least 26 shows throughout january, february, and the first half march of '71. they hit the east coast, the west coast, the south, and the midwest during the 3 months prior to the fillmore shows. I don't see any time for them to spend a couple months hanging out on an island preparing for two shows at the fillmore. they prepared for the fillmore by playing a show basically every other night for a year and a half. In my opinion neither Duane or Dickey's solos were prepared before hand any more than they would have been on any other night and they certainly weren't composed. They were a free flowing set of ideas that contain reference licks that were regularly used and finely honed over an extensive an unrelenting touring schedule as well as a set of predetermined audible AND visual cues to help guide the rest of the band.

if you want other recordings of this tune from late '70 through mid- '71 head over to the allman brothers website and sign up for their forum. they have a sanctioned "bootleg" trading section. you'll find plenty. I am sure I have some in my collection somewhere.

edit: Liz reed was played on the following dates in early '71
1/16
1/17 x 2
1/23
1/28
1/31
2/12
2/28
3/13 x 2
3/20
3/25
4/22

recordings exist for most of those shows. I know it was recorded on 9/19/71. that is absolutely one of my favorite Allman brothers live recordings of all time. 20 minutes of Liz Reed and 20 minutes of Dreams. killer show. Liz Reed is one of my favorite rock tunes of all time. The jam chord progression is the first preset recording on my looper pedal. I improvise over it nearly every time I practice. great for noodling on pentatonic, hexatonic, major scale, Aeolion mode, Dorian Mode.

newb3fan
12-03-2012, 10:12 AM
...and sometimes your solo comes out "not so good," and sometimes "brilliant." Given the importance of this up and coming new album, and the lackluster sales of their first two releases, I doubt Duane would have wanted to take a chance on the solos.

Remember, too, that, on this album, there were lots of other places to improvise --the end of "You Don't Love Me" and the end of "Whipping Post" for starters.

Reasonable point.

gennation
12-03-2012, 10:39 AM
I've been playing that tune, as well as many other ABB tunes since high school bands in the mid-70's. Other than the main riffs or the soloist turn-over cues I don't believe I have ever learned any of their riffs verbatim. That vibe was always very easy to cop for me. I do still learn new things to play over it/them though, even after 30 some years.

Right now we do IMOER in a more fusiony jazz quartet I'm in, so now I'm exploring it's sound in more of jazz sense using a hollow Artcore jazzbox (way less bending, implementing chromatic connection, etc...). I'm approaching it like I've never played the tune before to still have some blues in it (that's hard to omit completely) but still fit more in the over all vibe of the band (the band is what we call an "ECM cover band" so we do a lot of Metheny, Burton, Abercrombie, Corea, but someone threw IMOER into the set), so now I'm on a quest to make it sound less like Duane or Dickie.

There is still more life to find in that tune after all these decades!

Paul Bacon
12-03-2012, 03:51 PM
I am pretty sure they didn't spend a few months on an island preparing for this concert. the shows were recorded on march 12th and 13th of '71. They had a pretty constant touring schedule leading up to that. They played roughly 180 shows from the summer of '69 through the end of 1970 and kept the same schedule in early '71. They played at least 26 shows throughout january, february, and the first half march of '71. they hit the east coast, the west coast, the south, and the midwest during the 3 months prior to the fillmore shows. I don't see any time for them to spend a couple months hanging out on an island preparing for two shows at the fillmore. they prepared for the fillmore by playing a show basically every other night for a year and a half. In my opinion neither Duane or Dickey's solos were prepared before hand any more than they would have been on any other night and they certainly weren't composed. They were a free flowing set of ideas that contain reference licks that were regularly used and finely honed over an extensive an unrelenting touring schedule as well as a set of predetermined audible AND visual cues to help guide the rest of the band.

if you want other recordings of this tune from late '70 through mid- '71 head over to the allman brothers website and sign up for their forum. they have a sanctioned "bootleg" trading section. you'll find plenty. I am sure I have some in my collection somewhere.

edit: Liz reed was played on the following dates in early '71
1/16
1/17 x 2
1/23
1/28
1/31
2/12
2/28
3/13 x 2
3/20
3/25
4/22

recordings exist for most of those shows. I know it was recorded on 9/19/71. that is absolutely one of my favorite Allman brothers live recordings of all time. 20 minutes of Liz Reed and 20 minutes of Dreams. killer show. Liz Reed is one of my favorite rock tunes of all time. The jam chord progression is the first preset recording on my looper pedal. I improvise over it nearly every time I practice. great for noodling on pentatonic, hexatonic, major scale, Aeolion mode, Dorian Mode.

I thought I read about the island thing in Gregg's book or Randy Poe's book. I checked. I was mistaken. I must have read it on the internet:nono

Thanks for all that info. I appreciate it.

I've been improvising over a loop in Transcribe. So far just the Dorian mode. I'm going to check out your suggestions as well.

ungarn
12-05-2012, 10:34 AM
I’ve memorized and have been working to bring up to speed both Dickey and Duane’s solos from this Fillmore East recording for, probably, five months. I have always loved this song. At my playing level Dickey's was do-able. Not so, Duane’s. I did not have the chops.

Working on Duane’s solo has brought my playing to new heights—big time. I’m 60 years old and have been playing since age 14. The biggest technique improvement has been with my picking speed and accuracy. I didn’t know I had it in me. I sifted through archived TGP posts to find the help I’ve needed to accomplish that. I’ve also learned to do 5 beats over the space of 4 and come out perfectly on the 1 of the next measure. I had to develop both strength and a light touch in my left hand as well—in ’92 my ring and pinky fingers went paralized from a cervical operation. I’ve learned too many things to post here. I can’t believe where I’ve come in the last five months from working on this solo.

The song clocks in at 111 bpm. I’m just now getting fluid with it at 105 bpm. The big challenge now are those 16th note triplets at the first peak of Duane’s solo. Getting those clean and articulate (like he does) is a bear. A Gear Page post made me aware of the technique of a slight wrist rotation (like turning a doorknob) while picking at that speed has given me a glimpse of the light at the end of the tunnel. It’s just a matter of practice at this point. How much?—I have no idea.

And my question (among so many) is this. Are the solo’s in this song pre-prepared? I can only imagine that they are, but I do know that they were an improvisational band. But some of the solo’s on this record seem just so very carefully crafted. And I just can’t believe that all those varied and different phrases were springing like lightening in a momentary instance! I also read that they prepped for this recording on an island somewhere for a couple of months before the concert. I’ve tried to find other recordings of IMOER that happened in the same time period to compare to this particular recording, but haven’t been able to.

Would or could anyone shed some light on this for me? Or even any other thoughts on the topic would be very welcome.

Paul

I think I have an older Guitar DVD-ROM laying around where Dickey is teaching IMOER...send me a PM with your address and I'll get it your way.

electricwally
04-24-2013, 02:02 PM
Hi Paul... I just found your post today and as a result, I'm probably late to the thread but I hope I can add some additional info.

I have always loved this song. At my playing level Dickey's was do-able. Not so, Duane’s. I did not have the chops.Paul

I've spent a very, very long time learning this song and breaking it apart to better understand its structure. Dickey Betts' solo is beautiful! Very straightforward and stays primarily in the same direction taking the listener into a deep conversation. I enjoy playing his solo and it seems to flow more naturally with my style.

Duane's solo is longer in time and contains longer phrases. The solo also contains lots of dynamics. I learned the solo by breaking it apart in sections (phrase by phrase). Learn the first phrase and nail it then move to the second, third and so on...

I eventually learned both Dickey and Duane’s solo and it took a couple of years of hard work and I still don’t have it down cold!

Here is my first video I uploaded to youtube. I’m performing Dickey Betts 1971 Fillmore East solo on a close approximation of note-for-note.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_HmvMWWghlE

I’ll be uploading a tutorial video I made back in 2010 featuring Dickey Betts' solo up-close. Should be finished with the video in a couple of days. Just google, “In Memory of Elizabeth Reed – Dickey Betts Solo Cover” and you’ll find it.

Here is our band’s performance video for an “Elizabeth Reed Showdown” contest we participated in. My task in this performance was to learn Duane’s solo which is the second guitar solo. I’m standing next to the organist.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x7MEJnBK9Kw

I had to develop both strength and a light touch in my left hand as well—in ’92 my ring and pinky fingers went paralized from a cervical operation. Paul

Glad to hear your working it all out!

I’ve learned too many things to post here. I can’t believe where I’ve come in the last five months from working on this solo.Paul

You said the "key" words, "last five months from working on this solo." Both Duane and Dickey performed this song extensively in 1970 and part of 1971. Check out their tour schedule at www.allmanbrothersband.com and you will see how extensive the touring was at that time. They played Eliz Reed so many times that by the time it reached the '71 Fillmore East recording, it was well perfected! Practice... Practice.... Practice

The song clocks in at 111 bpm. I’m just now getting fluid with it at 105 bpm. Paul

That's good. Start slow and build up. Learning the notes is only half the battle. Dynamics and phrasing are so very important! What good is playing the solo up-to-speed if one is tripping over notes and lacking dynamics. Also, if the guitarists are well aware of dynamics yet the band plows ahead thru the entire song at 111 bpm then forget it! As a result, there will be nowhere to slow down an accentuate dynamics. In the Fillmore East recording, the songs bpm’s fluctuate throughout the song’s runtime. The bpm changes are albeit minimal but very noticeable and this is what makes the song great! It’s the human element!

And my question (among so many) is this. Are the solo’s in this song pre-prepared? I can only imagine that they are, but I do know that they were an improvisational band. But some of the solo’s on this record seem just so very carefully crafted. And I just can’t believe that all those varied and different phrases were springing like lightening in a momentary instance! Paul

I would say a combination of both! But I would definitely lean "heavily" to the side of "working out the solo's". Many of those riffs and licks were born from improvising and performing night after night, day after day, month after month etc. My guess would be that each guitarist took their riffs and perfected them over the course of months and tied them together while simultaneously tossing in improvisational riffs as well!

Don't forget, according to "In Memory of Elizabeth Reed" wikipedia, the Allmans performed that song three times during their Fillmore East run. The recording from the Fillmore East album was from one of two shows that day. The band played the song “two times” on March 13, 1971 and I bet each time the song was NOT note-for-note identical. All three performances from the Fillmore East run (1970 and 1971) were somewhat different (some better than others).

Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/In_Memory_of_Elizabeth_Reed

I’ve tried to find other recordings of IMOER that happened in the same time period to compare to this particular recording, but haven’t been able to.Paul

Just go to youtube and watch the show from 1970. It’s completely different than the 1971 performance. There are some cool licks and riffs played in the 1970 show that are not heard in the 1971 performance. Both shows are great! The birth of a band that “jams” !

Source: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=22MRGWnPPIU

Hope this helps you in your endeavors.

Be well Paul

lhallam
04-25-2013, 12:35 PM
Okay - the mistake is not in Elizabeth Reed Fillmore '71. But as I listend through I made a note of all the 'Flag Riffs' used by the band to indicate parts of a solo or the end of a solo:

Just as an FYI to anyone (not necessarily you Twitchey) - the typical terminology for 'flag riffs' is "cues" which are used in all kinds of music.

Don't mean to be too picky, I find it helpful when working up songs that we all use the same terminology as it allows for more efficient use of time and less miscommunication.

electricwally
04-25-2013, 02:05 PM
As a subcategory of "cues" I've often used the term "anchor points". Works as well in specific situations.

gtrplyr1
04-25-2013, 09:05 PM
I absolutely loved the solos that Dan Toler played on Liz Reed

flavaham
04-26-2013, 10:15 AM
Ahhhh, the Liz Reed thread. I remember this one!

Electricwally, nice playing! I always like to hear what people are playing on TGP.

I definitely love this tune. There's nothing like hearing it on vinyl either! I was listening the other day and there's a skip on mine right in the transition before Dickey's solo!! CRAP!!! Gotta find a new copy!

Anyhow, as for the solos, it's pretty fun to play the solos from the record, but I gotta say I really just like to go to town over this. As I stated earlier in this thread, I've never really gone to any lengths to learn the solos note-for-note. I do however visit some common themes when I find them under my fingers. I definitely start the solos as I remember them on Fillmore East but from there I usually find myself just doing my thang.

I just grabbed my guitar and got a loop going with the chord progression and I'll say this; as fun as it is to try to play Dickey and Duane's parts perfectly, and as impressive as that may be, it's far more satisfying (for me anyway) to explore it and make it your own.

Also, I'm pretty sure that Duane didn't use a pick (I know he didn't for slide, not sure about standard, but pretty sure...). I've found that the 16th note triplet run is actually easier without a pick. Just my .02

Paul Bacon
05-01-2013, 04:46 AM
Hi Paul... I just found your post today and as a result, I'm probably late to the thread but I hope I can add some additional info.



I've spent a very, very long time learning this song and breaking it apart to better understand its structure. Dickey Betts' solo is beautiful! Very straightforward and stays primarily in the same direction taking the listener into a deep conversation. I enjoy playing his solo and it seems to flow more naturally with my style.

Duane's solo is longer in time and contains longer phrases. The solo also contains lots of dynamics. I learned the solo by breaking it apart in sections (phrase by phrase). Learn the first phrase and nail it then move to the second, third and so on...

I eventually learned both Dickey and Duane’s solo and it took a couple of years of hard work and I still don’t have it down cold!

Here is my first video I uploaded to youtube. I’m performing Dickey Betts 1971 Fillmore East solo on a close approximation of note-for-note.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_HmvMWWghlE

I’ll be uploading a tutorial video I made back in 2010 featuring Dickey Betts' solo up-close. Should be finished with the video in a couple of days. Just google, “In Memory of Elizabeth Reed – Dickey Betts Solo Cover” and you’ll find it.

Here is our band’s performance video for an “Elizabeth Reed Showdown” contest we participated in. My task in this performance was to learn Duane’s solo which is the second guitar solo. I’m standing next to the organist.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x7MEJnBK9Kw



Glad to hear your working it all out!



You said the "key" words, "last five months from working on this solo." Both Duane and Dickey performed this song extensively in 1970 and part of 1971. Check out their tour schedule at www.allmanbrothersband.com and you will see how extensive the touring was at that time. They played Eliz Reed so many times that by the time it reached the '71 Fillmore East recording, it was well perfected! Practice... Practice.... Practice



That's good. Start slow and build up. Learning the notes is only half the battle. Dynamics and phrasing are so very important! What good is playing the solo up-to-speed if one is tripping over notes and lacking dynamics. Also, if the guitarists are well aware of dynamics yet the band plows ahead thru the entire song at 111 bpm then forget it! As a result, there will be nowhere to slow down an accentuate dynamics. In the Fillmore East recording, the songs bpm’s fluctuate throughout the song’s runtime. The bpm changes are albeit minimal but very noticeable and this is what makes the song great! It’s the human element!



I would say a combination of both! But I would definitely lean "heavily" to the side of "working out the solo's". Many of those riffs and licks were born from improvising and performing night after night, day after day, month after month etc. My guess would be that each guitarist took their riffs and perfected them over the course of months and tied them together while simultaneously tossing in improvisational riffs as well!

Don't forget, according to "In Memory of Elizabeth Reed" wikipedia, the Allmans performed that song three times during their Fillmore East run. The recording from the Fillmore East album was from one of two shows that day. The band played the song “two times” on March 13, 1971 and I bet each time the song was NOT note-for-note identical. All three performances from the Fillmore East run (1970 and 1971) were somewhat different (some better than others).

Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/In_Memory_of_Elizabeth_Reed



Just go to youtube and watch the show from 1970. It’s completely different than the 1971 performance. There are some cool licks and riffs played in the 1970 show that are not heard in the 1971 performance. Both shows are great! The birth of a band that “jams” !

Source: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=22MRGWnPPIU

Hope this helps you in your endeavors.

Be well Paul
Thanks for resurrecting this thread.

Your band's rendition was great. I was on the edge of my seat while the two solos were happening because I know them so well --like watching someone dance on the edge of a cliff. It's also interesting to see the interpretation that the individual provides within a note-for-note solo... like watching an actor perform.

I finally got this song up to speed. It's at 116 bpm, not 111 --yikes! I've been practicing with a loop that I took out of Greg's organ solo so I used that as a backing on this attempt.

Here it is, warts and all. I got a number of flubbs and timing issues and I'm still tripping on the triplets, among other things. But I just wanted to update the thread --I'm still working on it. In fact I love doing it.

I never was able to figure out how Duane got that "seagull sound", but I noticed you did and wonder if you'd teach it to me :>).

https://soundcloud.com/crispee/imoer-duanes-solo

Thanks so much for your post Wally!
Paul

flavaham
05-01-2013, 03:49 PM
Sounds good man! Do you have that backing track available to download? I could give this a shot! I'm gonna be gone for two weeks though, so it'll be a while.

Not sure if you saw my last post - do you use a pick to play Duane's part?

Paul Bacon
05-02-2013, 06:19 AM
Thanks Flav. I had the song loaded into Transcribe and just looped 8 bars out of Greg's organ solo to give me a backing track. But I could upload just the loop. I might be able to do that this afternoon --work has gotten busy. I'll do it asap.

I do use a pick. I'm pretty sure Duane used a pick for everything but his slide stuff. The YouTube videos of that song show him using a pick. In fact, his picking is pretty amazing to me --Dickey's too. They both had great articulation and fluidity.

I mentioned earlier in the thread that I'd read a post here where someone said he was told that the motion of the right hand turning a door knob gave more speed in picking. I worked on that --it has been key to my slow improvement with picking those triplets. Still working on it....

I'll get that backing track up as soon as I have a minute:phones