Acoustic pickups

[lydog]

So, my Taylor Expression System took a shit last week. As I bought second hand, I'm unsure if they'll repair it gratis. I should have heeded warnings about this system. It also got a lot of noise when the treble was up, and a consistent 'clicking' noise when my bandmate played it (although I never had this issue).

And although I like the ease of use and the fact that I can go directly into a PA/Mixer, I think I'm leaning more towards getting a new system to amplify my acoustic. After some research I've narrowed it down to four systems:

K&K Trinity System
Sunrise
K&K Ultra Pure
LR Baggs M1

Does anyone have any experience with these &/or recommendations. I'm unsure if I'll put this system in my 615ce or get a new gutiar altogether. (Found a 1971 D35 locally that I'd like to try for $2000). The 615 does seem a bit nasaly to me, and I love the tone from my J-40 so much more (but that is a heirloom studio/home guitar only).

[stephenT]

the best acoustic pickup IS the Sunrise. no pizeo quack, all the dynamics you need, no feedback. I installed a K&K for a second on a Collings OM, thought it was horrible.

[Stevoreen]

I really like the sound of the K & K trinity system, but based on great reviews and simplicity of installation, I bought the M1 (active version) and put it in my Taylor and have been very pleased with it. It has a full balanced sound and it's very hard to make it feedback when playing live. The adjustable pole pieces and built in voume knob are nice too.

[kfowler11]

Just to throw this in there, I bought a LR Baggs iBeam to replace the old Fishman Thinline in my 810. It sounds outstanding. I was totally floored. A friend had it in his cedar top Taylor and it sounded amazing. I've used it in some sizable venus and have been very pleased. Price is nice too.

[royd]

I have a dual source in my Lowden - Sunrise and McIntyre surface mount. It is an amazing combo and either pup alone sounds pretty good, each with its own strengths and weaknesses.
I have had an M1 too and it is a great single source pickup. I'm not sure whether I like it better than the Sunrise alone but it is certainly close.
IMHO, you would do well with either.

[empty71]

+1 for the Baggs iBeam Active :dude

[waxnsteel]

There's a dealer's site called Shoreline Music, I think, and there are tons of clips available via links. I think the particular stuff was on "Dave's" website, you'll know if you go scope out the site. From that it seemed to me that trthe best sounding components were the K & K western, and the Joe Mills mic. Personally, I'd like to get something that would allow me to install both in my cars, and then have an external pre. I have a lot of guitars. I have Fishman (mic and piezo) in my guitars, and an LR Baggs dual source. I get decent sound from it, after having tweaked them A LOT, but I would like to try those pieces. I've never been into magnetic systems. Sunrise included, though that one is the least magnetic sounding. To me the expression system has that same magnetic sound. (makes sense, it's basically 3 magnetic pickups) My girlfriend has a guitar with ES in it, and Strumming chords on the first few frets, but moving up, it gets yucky, bulbous, like an strat neck pickup(I like that tone, just not for acoustic). And if you're playing with someone who isn't using an ES guitar, your hi end will sound thin. Sorry, but I poo on ES every chance I get.

[tubetone74]

Go for the K&K. The Mini Western is the s*it!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[jim0115]

Anybody have any experience with Pickup the World brand pickups? This page has some good sounds samples for comparing pickups and I think the PUTW #27 sound fabulous. Sounds like they are very easy to install as well, in that they adhere to the underside of the saddle.

http://www.dougyoungguitar.com/pickuptest.htm

http://www.pick-uptheworld.com/products.htm

[mischultz]

Anybody have any experience with Pickup the World brand pickups? This page has some good sounds samples for comparing pickups and I think the PUTW #27 sound fabulous. Sounds like they are very easy to install as well, in that they adhere to the underside of the saddle.

http://www.dougyoungguitar.com/pickuptest.htm

http://www.pick-uptheworld.com/products.htm

Their stuff does indeed sound fabulous and it's as good in person as it is in clippage.

Here are the two caveats:

1. It absolutely doesn't cut in a mix. It's so dimensional and has so little edge to it that you can find yourself struggling to place it live. Conversely, if you're talking about coffee shop/house concert solo acoustic gigs, you couldn't as for anything better.

2. They need a *lot* of gain. I've used the Stealth undersaddle and #54 (two 27s working together) and both have required some manner of outboard preamp - I favor the Baggs PADI and/or GigPro - with the gain maxed plus a healthy dose at the mixer - at least 3:00 if not nearly maxed again.

Please understand that I meant the first bit every bit as much as the warning; David makes a *great* pickup that is noticeably different in form and function from just about everything else going. Worth investigating...

Best,

Michael

[jim0115]

Their stuff does indeed sound fabulous and it's as good in person as it is in clippage.

Here are the two caveats:

1. It absolutely doesn't cut in a mix. It's so dimensional and has so little edge to it that you can find yourself struggling to place it live. Conversely, if you're talking about coffee shop/house concert solo acoustic gigs, you couldn't as for anything better.

2. They need a *lot* of gain. I've used the Stealth undersaddle and #54 (two 27s working together) and both have required some manner of outboard preamp - I favor the Baggs PADI and/or GigPro - with the gain maxed plus a healthy dose at the mixer - at least 3:00 if not nearly maxed again.

Please understand that I meant the first bit every bit as much as the warning; David makes a *great* pickup that is noticeably different in form and function from just about everything else going. Worth investigating...

Best,

Michael

So that one likely won't work for me. I'm not doing a solo thing, but an acoustic band with another guitar, bass, and piano. Also, the reviews on Harmony Central for the PTWP's were not good. Lots of frustration with not finding the sweet spot for installation, and disappointment with the low output, even with a preamp.

How are the LR Baggs line, and is one of their pickups better than the other for my application? The guitar is a 1971 Martin D28.

I see no one mentioned the Fishman line as a favorite. Is there a problem with that brand?

[DiazDude]

I have LR Baggs in all my Martins
I Beam in the 00028EC & Dual Source in the D1228 & 000038H
Both sound great. The Dual Source has more output since the output is active. (9volt)
http://i34.photobucket.com/albums/d136/diazdude/martins.jpg

[royd]

Any time you use a surface mount transducer you have to fiddle with positioning. The one exception might be the Baggs Ibeam which is positioned by your bridge...
Again, I really like thw M1 but for a band situation, you can't beat a Sunrise. Add a surface mount transducer to bring back some of the artifacts and it sounds amazing. Two sources often can be used to compensate for weaknesses in one or the other. You would need either a stereo pre-amp like the new Duncan Solstice or an older Raven blender (what I use) or two dedicated channels in your PA.
If you're interested, the link in my sig goes to some tunes that all include my live acosutic set-up and even the pieces that have an additional micropone still seek to be close to the live sound.

[jim0115]

I'm leaning towards the Baggs I-Beam active pickup. Three questions:

Does this pickup cut through well in an acoustic band setting (2 guitars, bass, piano)?
Is feedback a problem?
Even though it is an active setup, does adding the Baggs Para Acoustic DI Preamp further improve the sound, or is that just added baggage?Or would it be a better setup to go with the I-Beam passive and the above mentioned preamp?

[waxnsteel]

Anybody have any experience with Pickup the World brand pickups? This page has some good sounds samples for comparing pickups and I think the PUTW #27 sound fabulous. Sounds like they are very easy to install as well, in that they adhere to the underside of the saddle.

http://www.dougyoungguitar.com/pickuptest.htm

http://www.pick-uptheworld.com/products.htm


That's the site I was talking about. I didn't like the PUTW sound at all, myself. I'd still call it an improvement over the ES.

Every type of system has a "sound" of it's own. Magnetics soud different from piezos. which sound different from contact systems, mics, ETC. Personally, I hate the magnetic sound. All the while, I'm hearing electric guitar. Magnetics I've heard definitely have better dynamic range. The ES is outstanding in that respect. Just not my sound. I'll take the "quack" any day. I'd still prefer an undersaddle and mic blended. A 3-way system can be even cooler. I used to jam with a guy who had wires hanging all over his guitar. He had a mag (rare earth), internal mic and pickup submixed through a little mixer, and apreamp taped to his strap. Great tone, but damn, tough to commit to all those pickups. And what a mess!

But really, listen to the clips on that page. Tons of systems are well represented. No matter how good the pickup sounds, though, if you're going to be playing in a band cointext, the PA is critical. Don't skimp.

[royd]

what waxnsteel said is very true... each pickup does have its own sound... but as he hates mags, I hate the quack of under-the-saddle pups. It all adds up to what you like and what compromises you're willing to make.

As for the choice between the active and passive I-beams, I would always choose passive with an external pre-amp. That way you aren't stuck when you want to switch systems as you're expoeriencing with moving from the EX system... you'll have holes etc. in your guitar in places that you don't want or need them.

[jim0115]

The guys at Shoreline are recommending the M1, or the Sunrise. They think that the volume necessary to cut through the mix when playing with a bass player will create feedback problems if using soundboard pickups. If I settle on the M1, and decide to buy a Baggs preamp as well, is there any advantage to getting the active M1 versus the passive M1?

[jokerjkny]

the best acoustic pickup IS the Sunrise. no pizeo quack, all the dynamics you need, no feedback. I installed a K&K for a second on a Collings OM, thought it was horrible.
course, the high strings still sound like your playing thru an archtop. but yea, the lower wound strings are AWESOME. wish i could somehow get a lower E, A, D only version.

and shame you didnt like the K&K. did you have the right size pickup? they make a large version for big bodies/bridges, and a small version for OM's, etc.

IMHO, i think the Pure Western the best thing out there. PLENTY of output for at least a 10ft. cable run to my DI box, and sounds nice and woody. not to mention, there's no battery to fuss, and its the least intrusive!!!

as for the iBeam, its waaay too fussy for my needs, and only the active version is worth getting. the passive is waaay too noisy, even w/ a 3 ft. cable to my DI box. :(

[Stevoreen]

........If I settle on the M1, and decide to buy a Baggs preamp as well, is there any advantage to getting the active M1 versus the passive M1?

The active model has a volume wheel right at your fingertips that I find useful in live situations.

[jim0115]

I went ahead and ordered the active, but decided to hold off on the preamp for now until I see how much eq'ing I can get from the PA.

[Stevoreen]

I went ahead and ordered the active, but decided to hold off on the preamp for now until I see how much eq'ing I can get from the PA.

I have the Baggs PADI, but haven't found it necessary to use it with this setup. I go straight from the M1 to my Ultrasound amp and then direct to the PA. It gives me a great sound.

[Den]

After much research, I just installed a Bagg's iMix system in my new Goodall. As it turns out, this is exactly the system James Goodall recommends as the best for his guitars. Although I'll be gigging for the first time with it this weekend, so far I couldn't be more pleased ... it's by far the best amplified acoustic tone I've ever had and really retains a lot of what's great about the Goodall acoustically. I've used both a Takamine and Ovation for plugged-in tone for years ... the difference in the clarity and overall "acousticness" of the iMix in this Goodall is unbelievable to me.

What I really like is the flexibility in blending the element and ibeam pickups ... you can easily favor one or the other as the gig, volume, PA system or music dictates. I found it easy to dial in the onboard preamp and hope it works as well on the gig as it does in my home studio. I find I favor more of the Ibeam at lower volumes and for fingerstyle ... while it seems blending more of the element will work well for cutting through and heavier strumming.

Good luck in your quest.

[DrDespair]

I have Fishman Matrix II installed in all my Acoustics.
Active, no Volume or Eq pot.

works well with both all mahogany-cheapos and my famed brazilian Rosewood/spruce dreadnaught.

and then I run it into a Boss AD-5! this combination rocks. I´ve had Professional Sound-Guys and Guitarist impressed with that sound.

the results with other Pickups didn´t work that well.

Matrix-Boss AD5-AER or similar.
recommend, esp. for strumming.

DrDespair

[jim0115]

Being as the M1 attaches directly to the top, do you find that it has any effect on the acoustic tone of the instrument when not plugged in? I'm trying to decide on the right pickup for live situations but I don't want to screw up the tone since I play unplugged alot. I've heard the M1 and do like the sound of it pretty well but I didn't have the chance to do a with/without comparison.

I don't hear a difference in tone when playing unplugged. However, if you do want to remove it when playing unplugged, it's a simple pickup to take off, and it can be done quickly and without loosening the strings, at least on my Martin d28. It simply unplugs via an 1/8" mini-plug from the endpin jack.

[royd]

The Sunrise is bigger & heavier than the M1 and covers more of the soundhole and I don't really hear any difference with my Lowden when it is in or out so I would expect very little effect from the M1... unless you are putting it into a guitar with a very thin top in which case it might make a slight difference.

[jokerjkny]

I went ahead and ordered the active, but decided to hold off on the preamp for now until I see how much eq'ing I can get from the PA.

good thought,

IMHO, onboard preamps w/ an outboard preamp only muddies the tone. best to just go w/ a simple passive DI box to the house, and let the soundman do his thing.

i too have the paraDI, but only as an onstage feedback killer, which the notch filter does very simply and easily. i use it w/ my Pure Western, and the tones are terrif.

[Beer]

I'd recommend going right to Taylor and asking for the guitar to get serviced. Taylor has been nothing but cool to me when I've asked questions. I'd guess they'd probably honor any service agreement even to a second hand guitar. Just call and say, "I was considering getting a custom Taylor made but first I wanted to get this guitar fixed".

I think the Expression System is tremendous. I'm considereing having my 814CE converted to it (costs about $600 I'm told). I think mine is just under the deadline of the year when the conversion is possible. I haven't read the complaints you site or experienced any problems with the system in my 354CE.

It is very difficult to compare pickup systems unless we are all talking about the same acoustic amplifier (and/or P.A.). It makes a huge difference IMO.

[lydog]

The battery clip and a wire on the circuit board were bunk/unattached. It cost me $30 to have a local repair guy fix it. (Less than one way shipping probably!)

After all this, I'm going to do something I should have done long ago... A/B my Taylor vs. my old Takamine and also do some pickup comparisons.

FWIW... my local repair guy also hates the ES. He installed a redundant pickup system (Baggs Element) on the 10+ Taylors he recently toured with. He also is endorsed by Taylor, but only plays them on stage. Everywhere out of the public eye, he's playing a Martin (probably better for the anti-Martin thread going on right now).

[andybog]

I totally recommend the L.R.Baggs iMix; they make a drop in unit that fits in the old Fishman hole in the Taylor guitars. I had the iMix dropped into my 98 Taylor 514CE, it improved the sound greatly, and no more quack. The guitar even sound great through my Bruno CT45, that usually isn't the case with acoustic guitars through tube amps.
I just had the system put into my new Goodall TCD, and it sounds fantastic, through our church PA, and also through my Ultrasound DS50 amp and satellite cab. I use the system in conjunction with the Baggs Para Acoustic DI, works very well. The iMix incorporates the Active ibeam and the Element undersaddle transducer, so you can blend the two together, or mix however you desire. Very quality system. I had a Taylor with the ES, personally I thought it sounded good, and had many compliments. BUT, it is very sensitive to touch, and any grounding issues in the sound system or building electrical are really amplified, it can be very annoying to say the least. One of my friends has had his guitar back to Taylor several times with ES problems, buzzing, popping. It was in a fairly high end Koa guitar. That's my .02

[Seegs]

I've got a the K&K Pure Western Minis and they sound great...tried an M1 by itself and hated it...couldn't get rid of the mid-honk with a Padi or on a AER acoustic cube or through a pa with powered Mackie Monitors...the Sunrise sounded the same as the M1 to me...

if I was into a dual system then I would consider using the Sunrise or M1 by not as my sole pu source...YMMV!!!

Chow,
Seegs

[Ogre]

I am surprised no one has mentioned the B-band systems, They have a lot less quack than most of the under saddle pickups I have heard.

[waxnsteel]

course, the high strings still sound like your playing thru an archtop.
HAH!! Same thing with the Expression sys. Have you tried it?

I know the piezoe doesn't perfectly capture the natural sound of an acoustic, but I just hear electric guitar EVERY TIME I hear someone playing a mag system. Even Shawn Colvin and all the big names using/endorsing the systems.

[r9player]

I have 3 E/A guitars (well 4 actually one is a Yamaha which is feedback prone I think)
First off, Takamine had it right when they made theirs, it still is a sound I like very much.
Other one is an IBeam - I really like this sound and it has a small pre-amp and volume wheel, also love the fact there is not much cut out.
last one is a B-Band which also does a splendid job although I like the I-Beam better a drawback is zero adjustments available here.

[waxnsteel]

)
First off, Takamine had it right when they made theirs, it still is a sound I like very much.

They are good. I know a guy who bought a Tak just to gut it, and put the electronics in his Martin. In a bright guitar, though, the Tak electronics can get harsh, but you're right, they haven't improved much on that sound since Takamine did it. As far as adjustments, I never find myself adjusting anything on-the-fly more than volume which lives at 3 O'clock while I'm strumming, and maxxed out when I'm fingerpicking. I rarely see anyone else adjusting EQ or anything, either. Are you talking about EQ changes, or just boosting for leads in a multiplayer context? If you need a boost, have you ever tried a comp or EQ pedal?

[Phil]

...

[erksin]

Do any of you guys know what Emmy-Lou Harris uses on her J-200? Her acoustics always sound great. It looks like an EMG or something. Anyone tried one?

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v491/TravisE/Emmy.jpg

That's a Sunrise...

God, I love that guitar!

[Adam1234]

Just never drill!!!;)

[thintele]

I am surprised no one has mentioned the B-band systems, They have a lot less quack than most of the under saddle pickups I have heard.

I've got the B-Band 2.2 in my Guild D55 and it sounds fantastic, a very authentic acoustic sound...I wish it had a bit more output though

[rodr55]

I use a Sunrise with my Collings 000-2HC and it sounds great.

[mccreadyisgod]

I found this guy's site when I was researching the purchase of a Schatten Design pickup for my acoustic...

http://www.dougyoungguitar.com/pickuptest.htm

BTW, I'm overjoyed with my Schatten. Natural, full, cuts in the mix but sounds good solo, and no quack.

http://www.schattendesign.com/HFN-Artist.htm

[stephenyi]

+1 on the Baggs stuff. I have an iMix installed in my Taylor 410 and a Dual Source installed in my 810B. Consistently better tone than other guitarists using Fishmans.