CAGE system (Learning the fretboard)

[iDavid]

I'm looking into "other" ways to learn the fretboard. I'm using Fretboard road-maps (DVD and book) and like it pretty well. I tried Fretboard logic and the CAGE systemand it looked interested, but I couldn't get my head around it...

I see a Homespun as Video Guitar soloing 101 which goes into the CAGE system. I also have seen some stuff on the net about it...

A few questions
1. Does CAGE only apply to major scales (chords)?
2. Anyone tied the Guitar soloing 101 video?
3. Do you think I should just stick to Fretboard road maps?

[Frank B]

I'm not familiar w/ the g101 system but have used FL to teach many students. Often the difficulty with CAGED is making the 'connections' more difficult than they really are- sometimes it helped to just concentrate on the octave shapes embedded in each of the 5 cowboy (open position) chord forms
ie: "C" octave shape is based on the 3rd fret A string and 1st fret B string. Get used to moving that shaped around until you are comfortable and aware that 'that shape' on the 5 fret A string/3 fret B string is still a "C" shape but is a D (note name) octave.

It's easy to see moving around but a little tricky to describe on paper/internet w/o the visual aids but if you do that for each of the shapes, stick to octaves you should be able to see how the octaves link together and use the octaves as a launching pad for chords, arpeggios and scales.

Good luck.

[dkaplowitz]

1. Does CAGE only apply to major scales (chords)?
2. Anyone tied the Guitar soloing 101 video?
3. Do you think I should just stick to Fretboard road maps?


1. As Frank B notes, it's CAGED, 5 patterns, not 4. It applies to just about any scale (including pentatonics), except for symmetrical scales and the chromatic scale.
2. No, don't know that video
3. I don't know how that one works, can you explain the approach?

Do what works best for how you think and approach the guitar. The CAGED made a lot of sense to me b/c it was pretty easy to see where one of those chords was anywhere on the fingerboard in any key. So to be able to quickly build a scale around that chord (wherever I was) seemed like the right way to go. It might not be the approach for some people, though. I know Jimmy Bruno has his own 6 pattern approach, and some people play 7 3-note-per-string patterns for most of their 7 note scales.

Also, you can learn one approach now and later abandon it for another. It's not like learning CAGED, or one of the other ones you mentioned, is going to hurt you. Learning anything is good. Learning what you can use best is better.

Good luck!

[Tom Gross]

Also, you can learn one approach now and later abandon it for another. It's not like learning CAGED, or one of the other ones you mentioned, is going to hurt you. Learning anything is good. Learning what you can use best is better.


Great, great point.


AS to CAGED:
I learned CAGED and it really helped me. After you get the patterns down, some things to do (with a metronome and/or over some chords) may be:

1. Connect them - play two adjacent of the patterns (e.g. G & E), to help blend them together.
2. Find all the chords and triads in each shape.
3. Turn each one into another scale (lower the 3rd for melodic minor, raise the 4th for lydian, etc.)
4. Define a series of major scales (say C Major, G major, D major) to play in a pattern, then play them (perhaps to a chord progression) in the same general fretboard position by changing scale forms. This helps us not think horizontilly or be locked in the box.


I also dug some 3-note per string patterns as well.

[decay-o-caster]

CAGED or a variant thereof is what really opened up the fretboard to me after decades of pentatonic wanking. It works for major, minor and seventh forms - if you know, say, a Dmin shape, and move it up 2 frets, you're going to be playing an Emin.

But most useful when learning about the CAGED approach for me was making sure I knew which was the I, iii, V, or vii of the chord. So if I'm playing Gmin shapes, I might not be thinking "Bb" for the minor third, but at least I know the note I'm playing is the minor third, and to go major, just raise it a half step.

For playing rhythm licks, CAGED can't be beat - you can move all over the neck playing little chord chunks, makes rhythm playing tons more interesting.

Don't know the other approaches you're talking about.

[WhosYourPal]

David, check out Kirk Lorange's Planetalk method. IMO, he has an interesting way of looking at the fretboard that is easy to understand.

[CAFeathers]

Fretboard Logic is excellent and works with the CAGED system. There are 3 parts to it and a DVD/Video.

[russ6100]

decay-o-caster wrote:
But most useful when learning about the CAGED approach for me was making sure I knew which was the I, iii, V, or vii of the chord. So if I'm playing Gmin shapes, I might not be thinking "Bb" for the minor third, but at least I know the note I'm playing is the minor third, and to go major, just raise it a half step

I agree totally with that statement.
The ear begins to make associations with intervals based off the root - it becomes a more "honest" way of playing, if that makes any sense. It really creates a situation where you really know what a note is going to sound like before you grab it.

I sort of developed my own take on the CAGED system after many years of mostly a scale based approach and it really helped free things up. Now, I'm viewing the fretboard from both perspectives simultaneously, which is the best of both worlds.

Russ
http://www.russletson.com

[Tomo]

Dave, Tom

Great points.

I like the CAGED system with triads/scales.
even blues phrases. Simple connection.

Then I used to practice 3 notes per strings...
with many sequencings.

I have been teaching so many people from all over the world.
People tends to prefer one system and follow too much
shapes. It's ok when you learn them for the first time.
but gradually you have do something... You can't look at
fretboard to do good soloing? (Another great topic).

So I use many possibilities as long as I don't have to use my brain
to much. I also like to use "One string' or "2 strings" side by side
approach.

I have tried many possible ways... now I try to forget everything.
Pretty much by ears... (another approach). I try to avoid to look
at my left fingers. I don't want to know where I am.

Please do try all choices and examine them. hopefully each
person will understand something new...

Tomo

[iDavid]

Hey Guys,

CAGED is really making sense to me now. It is a pretty simple concept that seemed pretty complicated.. until now that is...

I was using D-A-F Roadmap from Fretboard roadmaps.
http://www.fenderplayersclub.com/pdfs/lessons/d_a_f_roadmap.pdf

I can't quite get how the two relate to each other, I seem to just about get it and then poof... gone :cool: If anyone wants to shed some more light on the subject, I'm listening

I think D-A-F deals more with finding chords on the first four strings... Later in the book it deals with some scales but not to the extent of CAGED

I appreciate Tomo's response and plan to start on interval ear training in the weeks to come.

I love guitar and learning just never stops... dig it!

[iDavid]

Are you Tomo Fujita?

If so, I LOVE your DVD. I have to finish up a few more lessons on some other DVDs then I'm focusing on yours. You have a hell of a groove. My daughter has just turned two and I was playing the DVD, she got up and started dancing crazy. She knows good music, btw (she has also starting playing bongos... really)

Small suggestion. These little booklets make me nuts. It would be cool if we could purcase a large one to go with it... just a thought

oh, if our not Tomo Fujita, thanks for the advice anyway :BEER

[Old Tele man]

...if you study the CAGED system, you'll soon realize that basically there are just THREE (3) chords (ie: those that begin on ROOT, those that begin on THIRD, and those that begin on FIFTH)...and these 3 chords are "inter-related" like this:

1) the E-chord (R on 6) is related to G-shape (R on 6)
2) the C-chord (R on 5) is related to D-shape (R on 4)
3) the C-chord (R on 5) is related to A-shape (R on 5)

...so, "...what's the difference," you ask? Well, consider the "sequence" in which the notes are played (downstroke, ie: bass to treble):

1) on the E-chord shape (R,5,R,3,R,R), the first two notes are ROOT and then FIFTH.
2) on the G-chord shape (R,3,5,R,3,R), the first two notes are ROOT and then THIRD.
3) on the A-chord shape (x,R,5,R,3,5), the first two notes are ROOT and then FIFTH.
4) on the C-chord shape (x,R,3,5,R,3), the first two notes are ROOT and then THIRD.
5) on the D-chord shape (x,x,R,5,R,3), the first two notes are ROOT and then FIFTH.
6) on the E-chord shape (x,x,R,3,5,R), the first two notes are ROOT and then THIRD.

...notice a trend going on there? Yep, all the chord shapes are related by which direction you want the chord notes to progress...ie: ROOT-to-THIRD means chord shape-fingering will go "down" (toward nut) from the ROOT note, while ROOT-to-FIFTH will go "up" (toward bridge).

...there's more; ask me if you're interested.

PS--yes, chords can begin on SEVENTH too!

[Tomo]

Are you Tomo Fujita?

If so, I LOVE your DVD. I have to finish up a few more lessons on some other DVDs then I'm focusing on yours. You have a hell of a groove. My daughter has just turned two and I was playing the DVD, she got up and started dancing crazy. She knows good music, btw (she has also starting playing bongos... really)

Small suggestion. These little booklets make me nuts. It would be cool if we could purcase a large one to go with it... just a thought

oh, if our not Tomo Fujita, thanks for the advice anyway :BEER



Yes, I am Tomo Fujita.

Thank you so much for using my AYGP dvd. Say thanks to your
daughter! I am happy to hear that i move somebody.

Great suggestion about booklet. Unfortunately...
this dvd was originally produced in Japan and it was
video format. So when I got offer from Hal Leonard,
I suggested to make this booklet bigger.. but we had
size issue.. because this AYGP was video format, if
we made bigger size booklet... won't fit the video shelf.

Plus everything is smaller in Japan. Even this AYGP book
version (w/cd and 3 more sections) is not big as book in
U,S. Because people read books while riding trains in Japan.

PS, My AYGP DVD2 will be released in U.S. very soon.
This will discuss all possible fingerings ideas(ideal, useful fingerings
you will see...) and organized as simpler concept. I don't like complicated
approach. So that you can apply to your own playing,
not just need to follow the method.


Tomo

[Frank B]

Looking forward to Aygp II !!!

[justicetones]

Looking forward to Aygp II !!!


Mee too. I have enjoyed breaking out of my comfort zones with AYGP.

Thanks Tomo:BEER

[daddyo]

I am using a book called Beginning Jazz Guitar by Jody Fisher. I'm learning basic triads - major, minor, dim, aug. You learn them for each inversion based on string sets - 1st string set is 6,5,4; 2nd is 5,4,3; etc. It seems to be working for me. I worry about learning patterns. I have already learned a lot of movable chords and scale patterns and know my fingerboard well but I want to learn the theory behind harmony, not memorize patterns. Then hopefully I can play without thinking. Maybe a futile task.

[1-Take-Wonder]

1. Connect them - play two adjacent of the patterns (e.g. G & E), to help blend them together.


and get to this quickly...dont spend too much time drilling the 8/16 note scale because as Tomo and others suggested, eventually you want to forget the scale.

For me, this was where these patterns changed from scales into music. So once you get the pattern down somewhat, start adding others and blend the two, restrict to three strings, two strings etc, start adding ever wider string skipping, octaves, etc to bring some drama into the runs, again this is where I started to hear melodic ideas rather than scale or apreggio progressions in the runs.

[Tomo]

I am using a book called Beginning Jazz Guitar by Jody Fisher. I'm learning basic triads - major, minor, dim, aug. You learn them for each inversion based on string sets - 1st string set is 6,5,4; 2nd is 5,4,3; etc. It seems to be working for me. I worry about learning patterns. I have already learned a lot of movable chords and scale patterns and know my fingerboard well but I want to learn the theory behind harmony, not memorize patterns. Then hopefully I can play without thinking. Maybe a futile task.

It's ok to learn as shape for the first time.
Hey , my open D chord is triangle right?

but next step is very important

1) Hear the degrees/colors
5 Rt 3 ? or 3rd 5 Rt? What note is on top?

2) Make more mistakes while you practice
without looking at your fretboard!
Don't visualize too much.

3) Apply these ideas into song, not just
keep practicing! You just get the result
of the method?

No rules. There are too much information
about playing. Too much! All depends how you
apply it.

Capisi ?

Tomo

[free_jazz]

hearing intervals like a horn player?

[flatfinger]

Dave, Tom

Great points.

I like the CAGED system with triads/scales.
even blues phrases. Simple connection.

Then I used to practice 3 notes per strings...
with many sequencings.

I have been teaching so many people from all over the world.
People tends to prefer one system and follow too much
shapes. It's ok when you learn them for the first time.
but gradually you have do something... You can't look at
fretboard to do good soloing? (Another great topic).

So I use many possibilities as long as I don't have to use my brain
to much. I also like to use "One string' or "2 strings" side by side
approach.

I have tried many possible ways... now I try to forget everything.
Pretty much by ears... (another approach). I try to avoid to look
at my left fingers. I don't want to know where I am.

Please do try all choices and examine them. hopefully each
person will understand something new...

Tomo



" I try to avoid to look
at my left fingers. I don't want to know where I am.
"


YES , The left brain gets way into visual shapes; which hinders musicality!!

You Da Man , Tomo!