No matter what I do...I just don't can't get my head around music theory. [Archive]

flatfinger

01-21-2006, 06:05 PM

Well,
it is true that it's been made more difficult than it has to be. most nomenclature involves old greek and roman names( often 2 or 3 for the same concept) . The best thing to do is to break it down into small concepts and worry about the big picture a little later on. The good news on key sigs is that most guitar oreinted music is in A, G, E, or C, really.

You can memorize 4 , right? Just keep at it and remeber that the main thing to do is develop your ear. If it sounds good , know one will care about the technical aspects except the guys at your publishing CO. who are releasing your songbooks!!!!!:JAM

Thwap

01-21-2006, 07:15 PM

-=MYK=-

01-21-2006, 08:00 PM

Perhaps I will try out this Fretboard Logic thingy.

Best wishes,

-Michael

Tom Gross

01-21-2006, 10:06 PM

Yo Myk, sometimes the hardest part to learning theory is that there are different approaches to it, so you can get a whole lot of not necessarily conflicting information, but confused information from too many sources.

My suggestion would be pick a system, I started with the Fretboard Logic CAGED system. It worked well for me to get started. But I'm thinking if you take one system, whichever one it is and apply yourself to it, if you have questions it will be much easier for someone to help you out. I obviously don't know where you're at as far as what you want to learn, but start slowly, you know maybe work on chord/scale relationships, and don't move on from there until you've got it cold. Just remember, it's not a race, take your time, you'll get it :dude

Yes, great advice.

It not only isn't a race, it will not work if you race thru it.
It is important to be patient, and to learn stuff one thing at a time, often without understanding right then how it will be useful.
The CAGED system is a good one, cause it builds off of chord shapes we all know.
If you walk the path patiently, pretty soon you'll start having those "Ah-Ha!" moments where it starts to come together & be useful.

justicetones

01-21-2006, 10:14 PM

+1 on the CAGED system.

I am embarrassed to say that sometimes I have to think harder than I should about where I am on the fretboard and where notes are that are in close proximity. :NUTS

I learned guitar more as patterns and by ear. :jo

As someone that works sometimes as a guitarist it is sad. I am focusing completely on brushing up on the CAGED system and also I am using Tomo's DVD Accelerate your guitar playing. :RoCkIn

StevenA

01-22-2006, 08:02 AM

-=MYK=-

01-22-2006, 12:28 PM

I want to learn it so that I can understand music from a theory standpoint, and not just 'oh this sounds good', I already know how to do that part.

justicetones

01-22-2006, 12:46 PM

Why do you need to learn music theory? No matter how hard I try I can't get my head around dancing! So I don't do it! I also can't get my head around physics but that doesn't mean that I don't drive a car. Have fun playing.
There is always the alternative.

Steven

+1 Have fun playing. 100% agreed

Knowing Theory makes you a better musician BUT it should not be such an obsession that you can't and don't have fun playing. Theory should be one regiment of practicing not the ONLY.

jspax7

01-22-2006, 01:24 PM

I want to learn it so that I can understand music from a theory standpoint, and not just 'oh this sounds good', I already know how to do that part.

If you don't read music, start there. 15 min. a day will be easy to do. Take your time. Say the name of each note, (aloud) as you play.

Music is about notes and their relationship to chords. (chords are basically 3 notes.)

Start with the key of C Major. C D E F G A B C

Every other note gives you a chord.

Example; (C) D (E) F (G) is a C Major chord.

Here's how it breaks down in C Major:

C Major = CEG
D minor = DFA
E minor = EGB
F Major = FAC
G Major = GBD
A minor = ACE
B minor7b5 = BDFA. This chord is seldom used in Rock, but is used in a minor Blues or in Jazz.

Now, record a 2 chord progression. C Major to E minor.
C = CEG
Em= EGB

Which note in Em is not in the C chord? (answer = B)
Play a C major scale, but hang out around the C note. When the chord changes to Em, move to the B note. (Magic!) You've just made the chord/scale connection.

Try recording C Major and any other chord in the key. (2 chords at a time for now) The "key" (pun intended) is to be able to change from any note in the C chord to any note in the E minor chord. (or whatever chord you choose)

Practice spelling out the chords in C major. Then play the notes in a familiar location. (scale pattern) Use 1 position. (the one you know best)

The idea is application. When you learn a concept, apply it! When you can do this well, you're ready for a new concept.

If you have any other questions, send me a PM.
Hope this helps.

By the way, the key of C Major is also the key of A minor, so start with an A minor chord and apply the same concept. (2 chords only. It's clearer that way.)

lhallam

01-22-2006, 02:01 PM

First and foremost, you won't be able to apply your theory until you know the fretboard inside and out. If you don't know it, get it down cold.

Next learn what an interval is. Then memorize all the intervals because they are the cells upon which the music/theory is built.

INTERVALS
Perfect unison = the same pitch (EG 5th fret B string and 6th string open E)
minor 2nd = one 1/2 step (one fret)
Major 2nd = one whole step (two frets)
minor 3rd = three 1/2 steps (three frets)
Major 3rd = four 1/2 steps (four frets)
Perfect 4th = five 1/2 steps
augment 4th AKA diminished 5th = six 1/2 steps
Perfect 5th = seven 1/2 steps
minor 6th = eight 1/2 steps
Major 6th = nine 1/2 step
minor 7th = ten 1/2 steps
Major 7th = eleven 1/2 steps
Perfect Octave = twelve 1/2 steps

A to Bb = minor 2nd
A to B = Major 2nd
A to C = minor 3rd
A to C# = Major 3rd
etc...

Once you get this basic alphabet, the rest comes easier. Also, it really really helps to know and reference a keyboard because you can see the note relationships much clearer.

NOTE: Notice no black key between B & C and E & F. Memorize when playing only the white keys (natural notes - no sharps or flats) that from B to C = one 1/2 step and from E to F = one 1/2 step, all the rest are whole steps. This will help you in the future.

Don't make it more complicated than it really is. There are a few things you need to memorize and the rest is very logical. Sort of like learning a theorem in math.

If you have a particular issue that is confusing you don't hesitate to email me or post and I'll do my best to provide the correct answer. I'm sure others will as well.

These are all accurate replies and I don't everyone but I can tell you that Tom Gross is always right and he never lies so vote for him. dkaplowitz also knows his stuff. They are both very helpful and you can't go wrong listening to them.

lhallam

01-22-2006, 02:11 PM

Why do you need to learn music theory? No matter how hard I try I can't get my head around dancing! So I don't do it! I also can't get my head around physics but that doesn't mean that I don't drive a car. Have fun playing.
There is always the alternative.

Steven

Theory allows musicians to communicate faster and easier. I sure wouldn't want a surgeon working on me to not know his tools and how to use them. The more you know about any subject the better.

johnspeck

01-22-2006, 02:43 PM

Thanks for the replies, this is a great way for me to start learning theory as well.

I have a good ear, can play pretty much anything I hear that's at my level (most rock but shred; although I can cop a pretty convincing metal lead if necessary... blues, some simple pentatonic jazz phrases), but I want to really improve, and I need to learn this in order to get there. Too often when I'm improvising, I end up playing some standard lick instead of really stretching out, and sometimes when I do stretch, I hit a bum note 'cause I'm used to playing patterns.

I've heard that all you really need to do is play what you sing in your head, but I'm not familiar enough with the fretboard to know how to do it anywhere.

I need to start seeing someone about one on one lessons around here. Detroit area, any suggestions? (not too expensive, either, I'm broke!)

Tom Gross

01-22-2006, 02:50 PM

I need to start seeing someone about one on one lessons around here...

Yes. That is the best way to get going. Find someone to take you step by step through it. A little theory goes a long way in helping you find cool ways to stretch out & express yourself.

StevenA

01-22-2006, 02:57 PM

The last few posts were very generous and thoughtful in their explanations, but I couldn't help but imagine that MYK felt as if he were looking at a blank screen. You can try to make music theory as simplistic as possible but that isn't what MYK needs. In my opinion he needs to know that theory is not life and death. He needs to realize that he is intelligent and with the proper amount of relaxation and temperment the science of music theory will become easier to extrapolate. Now may not necessarily be the best time for theory. Perhaps a few sessions with a private teacher will be stimulating enough for further comprehension. The thing is not to worry about it. If you look at the entire syllabus it could be quite frightening. Move slowly, compile little successes. and remember how lucky and fortunate you are to be able to express the gift of music.

Steven

johnspeck

01-22-2006, 03:04 PM

Yes. That is the best way to get going. Find someone to take you step by step through it. A little theory goes a long way in helping you find cool ways to stretch out & express yourself.

Yes! In the past few years, I've seen the greatest progress as a player, since I picked up the instrument (almost 30 years ago!) I've just lately been able to hear what a player is doing, and have some inkling of how to play it (ala Eric Johnson, although I don't know any scales but the typical box blues, really). My alternate picking has really improved, and i can play a little bit of country major scale stuff.

I want to be able to play jazz lines and know what I'm doing, not just rote riffing and patterns. I can scat like George Benson and hit neat jazz stuff vocally to myself, but I wouldn't have a clue as to how to translate that to the fretboard, and I don't know what notes I'm singing/playing, I just know they sound right.
I'm a songwriter, but when someone says something to me like, "I really love that minor diminished discombobulator froop that you play in the bridge to that song!", I'm just nodding going "Thanks, that's EXACTLY what I was going for!" when I'm totally in the dark as to what any of my stuff is. I just hear the music in my head.

StevenA

01-22-2006, 03:08 PM

Theory allows musicians to communicate faster and easier. I sure wouldn't want a surgeon working on me to not know his tools and how to use them. The more you know about any subject the better.

Says who?
No offense, but you have research to back this up?
Last time I checked, musicians didn't need a lisence to play.

justicetones

01-22-2006, 03:33 PM

Originally Posted by lhallam
Theory allows musicians to communicate faster and easier. I sure wouldn't want a surgeon working on me to not know his tools and how to use them. The more you know about any subject the better.

Says who?
No offense, but you have research to back this up?

I think the spirit of most of the other posts has been quite positive. I would agree with Ihallam. Most all of us have encouraged Theory as part of a practice regiment. Not the end all must know. And none of us have said that it is a must know subject.

That said

IMHO, all of the musicians I know that have chops of varying degrees and know some theory play circles around the one's that don't. PERIOD. Knowing theory doesn't necessarily mean you can spell out every chord or scale on the spot either. It is recognizing colors parts of chords relative to others and using your ear.

I agree with your post that basically says to take small steps and enjoy music as a gift. 100 % agreed..... :)

StevenA

01-22-2006, 03:55 PM

I hope it hasn't been construed that I am anti-theory. On the contrary, I have been through Russell's Lydian Chromatic Concept, Slomninsky's Thesaurus of Melodic Patterns, Wyble's Two part Improvisation, Arkin's Creative Chord Substitutions, the list goes on and on and on....I was only trying to make one point. There have been immensely successful musicians in every genre throughout history that were music theory illiterates. Would I recommend theory for MYK? Absolutely, as much as can be shoved down his throat. But when it comes to playing one's instrument, if you can't hear it, then there really is no use playing it. If MYK spent more time listening to great musicians, and stop worrying about theory his progress would increase enough to allow new acceptance of theoretical material. I don't think about theory one bit when I play, Neither did Clapton, Hendrix or Vaughn. I know much more theory than my friend Mark, and I can't even sit in the same room as him when he's playing. But then again, he spent much more time listening to the above guitarists than I did.

Steven

justicetones

01-22-2006, 04:26 PM

StevenA

01-22-2006, 04:37 PM

100% agreed

It was just a little unclear what you meant. I don't think any of us want to lead MYK down a frustrating road. Just encourage him with some good thoughts and tips.

:AOK

Thanks man,
Time to let it rest and get back to jammin'

Steven

-=MYK=-

01-22-2006, 04:39 PM

I wasnt to thank all of you for your contributions!

I really appreciate it, and I'll def get working on some of the stuff mentioned above.

I'm trying to get somewhere music-wise, and i'm not really sure where exactly that may be, but I do know that if I lack the tools to make something, then I won't be able to accomplish whatever it is.

I'd like to be able to write music with my guitar, and without it. If I don't know what the heck I'm doing without it then I can't do it(was that redundant enough?)

Thanks again, and I'll try to ask more questions when i encounter specific problems.

Best wishes,

-Michael

justicetones

01-22-2006, 04:44 PM

You can always feel free to email me. I will answer the best I can.

Tom Gross

01-22-2006, 06:31 PM

Another thing that's cool about knowing a little theory is just that it's a common language, so it's easier to talk to a lot of different people about songs or riffs or whatever. It doesn't really matter whether you say "Dorian" or "cool thing like Carlos plays in Black Magic Woman" or "I just play blues in A but add in the 4th fret of the B & G string", all talkin' bout the same thing, but the the first form of saying it is simpler and may help you communicate with a different group of folks.

And, yeah, it's all just to help us play and express ourselves. I've never regretted learning anything.

jzucker

01-22-2006, 06:33 PM

uberschall

01-22-2006, 07:29 PM

I agree with a suggestion from Steven A- maybe try a teacher. Sometimes when you're stumped, you only have one frame of reference, or way of approaching the problem. A good teacher can give insights or alternate explanations that might help you get the concept.

I hadn't taken lessons for over ten years, but I took 3 over the past 3 years with a couple of great teachers. Those few lessons have helped me advance in ways I hadn't even expected, and I refer to that material and theory all the time. Seeing how a great musician thinks can also increase the efficiency of your own practicing.

You don't need theory to enjoy playing, but the more you know, the easier it is to communicate your ideas with other musicians and your audience. That can give you more opportunities and situations in which to perform.

jspax7

01-22-2006, 07:38 PM

Theory isn't that hard to learn. Just get a good book and devote an hour a day to it for a few months. My son became very knowledgeable in music theory in less than a year.

Try Joey Goldstein's book.

I agree! Just keep it simple to start with. You can do so much with just a little information. Practice basic concepts until you are ready for more.

You can't learn it all at once. It's step by step. I could tell you everything I know, and confuse the issue even more. What's important is that you understand it.

Start with one position of a C Major scale. Apply the simple chord/scale relationships that you grasp. Then you can move to other positions, and other keys.

It's a journey. Enjoy the ride!

neve1073

01-23-2006, 01:42 AM

I hope it makes sense sooner or later. :(

why do you care about understanding music theory??

neve1073

01-23-2006, 01:48 AM

I want to learn it so that I can understand music from a theory standpoint, and not just 'oh this sounds good', I already know how to do that part.
Ok. Then I recommend taking a first year harmony class at your local college. CAGED is a great concept for learning your way around the guitar fingerboard, but if you want to learn music theory I'd recommend starting from the beginning with counterpoint and ending with classical harmony...and it's all keyboard based!!!! It'll be a bitch for a couple semesters but if you are into music for the long haul (the rest of your life) you'll probably never regret it.

jzucker

01-23-2006, 04:35 AM

why do you care about understanding music theory??

Why do you care about speaking english?

neve1073

01-23-2006, 02:31 PM

Why do you care about speaking english?

My question was a fair question...except that when i went back to read all the posts i saw that he had already answered it.

Lot's of people speak English just fine and don't need to learn the historical evolution of formal grammar, sentence structure and literary genres. By the same token, lots of people play great music without being able to describe a chord progression in roman numerals etc.

jzucker

01-23-2006, 02:38 PM

Lot's of people speak English just fine and don't need to learn the historical evolution of formal grammar, sentence structure and literary genres. By the same token, lots of people play great music without being able to describe a chord progression in roman numerals etc.

No. That's a bad analogy. Nobody suggested that you have to learn the historical evolution of music in order to understand conversational theory. I doubt the original poster was interested in parallel 4ths or bach chorales. I assume he was interested in understanding how notes relate to chords and how chord progressions work.

Of course you can play great without knowing theory, just as you can be a street poet without knowing good grammar.

HOWEVER, knowing theory will give you a head's up in terms of musical understanding.

neve1073

01-23-2006, 03:16 PM

Of course you can play great without knowing theory, just as you can be a street poet without knowing good grammar.

That actually was the point of my analogy.

Really I was just trying to explain my question "why do you want to learn music theory?" It's a fair question. I wasn't trying to be rude or sarcastic. I got the feeling from his post that he wants to do it because he thinks he's supposed to master theory to be a player. That may or may not be necessary depending on what he wants to do, his ear, etc.

You're probably right to assume "he was interested in understanding how notes relate to chords and how chord progressions work." But I was trying to get some more info out of him to answer his question.

In any case, studying music is great, if you are into it. There are many valid ways to go about it. I suggested taking a good 1rst year class on harmony at the college level. It's a tried and true method. There are other methods too.

jzucker

01-23-2006, 04:16 PM

I suggested taking a good 1rst year class on harmony at the college level. It's a tried and true method. There are other methods too.

Not a bad start but that's the long way around...That will teach you nothing about applied theory and how chords work and how notes relate to chords.

neve1073

01-23-2006, 06:33 PM

Well, I have to disagree respectfully. If you take a standard "old school" textbook, eg walter piston's "Harmony," you will see that it teaches all about how chords work/function and how the notes relate to chords. A good book specifically on jazz harmony would do the same thing, focusing more on the language of jazz and applying it to standards.

It was good for me to learn harmony in a class that wasn't geared toward the guitar. Many guitarists learn harmony only as it applies to the fretboard and ultimately that is limiting if you want to compose for other instruments.

Jzucker, I just had a look at your website. Based on seeing the table of contents and some example pages I saw, it is obviously an excellent and acclaimed book for building chops and learning lines over harmonically challenging standards. But, as you describe it, it looks like a (very good) technique book which IMO is different from a book on the rudiments of harmony. I mean, I'm guessing that someone who spends time with your book, aside from learning scales, arps, cool lines etc, will pick up some knowledge about voice leading and chord function, but it doesn't seem to be the focus of your book based on the table of contents. Correct me if I'm wrong about your fine looking book.

I'm really not trying to start a fight here.

neve1073

01-23-2006, 06:35 PM

PS:

By the way, this is not in any way a negative criticism of your book. I'm just saying that a technique book is different from a book on functional harmony.

jzucker

01-23-2006, 06:39 PM

Well, I have to disagree respectfully. If you take a standard "old school" textbook, eg walter piston's "Harmony," you will see that it teaches all about how chords work/function

No it doesn't. Not in a modern context.

What does Piston say about

| D/Eb C/Ab | E/C C#m74ths | ????

Does he explain how that's a | ii V | I VI | sequence?

jzucker

01-23-2006, 06:42 PM

PS:

By the way, this is not in any way a negative criticism of your book. I'm just saying that a technique book is different from a book on functional harmony.

Where did I say my book was a functional harmony book?

neve1073

01-23-2006, 06:48 PM

As I said, "A good book specifically on jazz harmony would do the same thing, focusing more on the language of jazz and applying it to standards."

I'm not interested in a pissing contest.

jzucker

01-23-2006, 07:05 PM

As I said, "A good book specifically on jazz harmony would do the same thing, focusing more on the language of jazz and applying it to standards."

I'm not interested in a pissing contest.

I didn't read where you said that. I read where you said to take an introductory harmony class and work your way up to classical theory.

Thwap

01-23-2006, 07:34 PM

The reason that I originally suggested the CAGED system, is because it's the first time I could understand a basic chord scale relationship. What I'm getting at (and this is only my experience), is that if you can get someone to overcome the belief that they can't do something, and have a few small victories, they will seek out the more advanced stuff on their own. If you just pick one system...whatever it is....and focus on it, IMO you have a better chance for success than trying to incorporate many different outlooks, there's time for that later. Private instruction would obviously be the best, no doubt. College courses would have intimidated me, I'd have felt the need to keep up...not knowing whether I could or not...that's just me. And I guess I assumed, which I don't know why I did, that since Myk had said he had looked all over the internet, that maybe he was wanting to try to tackle it himself. Anyway...wish you the best Myk.

StevenA

01-23-2006, 08:31 PM

Why do you care about speaking english?

Jack I'm having trouble with your analogy. You are an excellent communicator and I wonder what theoretical material you have assimilated in order to have advanced as far as you have. What advice would you give someone who wanted to excell in conversation? You are no doubt an astute listener and more than likely you have appreciated the exceptional skills of other master speakers. But is there truly a theoretical apprenticeship one must enter to hone these talents. If one may be directed to such luminary orators as King, Lincoln, and Kennedy, as well as countless other writers, poets, and maestros of the spoken word, then can't a musician extrapolate from the genius of great soloists and just hear the changes you have proposed without having to delve into music theory in order to successfully play them? If a musician is so inclined to investigate what theoretical structures precisely define that progression then the results should be more than satisfying. However, I don't know of any corolary in the use of the english language that permits this kind of utilization.

jzucker

01-23-2006, 08:55 PM

Jack I'm having trouble with your analogy. You are an excellent communicator and I wonder what theoretical material you have assimilated in order to have advanced as far as you have. What advice would you give someone who wanted to excell in conversation? You are no doubt an astute listener and more than likely you have appreciated the exceptional skills of other master speakers. But is there truly a theoretical apprenticeship one must enter to hone these talents. If one may be directed to such luminary orators as King, Lincoln, and Kennedy, as well as countless other writers, poets, and maestros of the spoken word, then can't a musician extrapolate from the genius of great soloists and just hear the changes you have proposed without having to delve into music theory in order to successfully play them? If a musician is so inclined to investigate what theoretical structures precisely define that progression then the results should be more than satisfying. However, I don't know of any corolary in the use of the english language that permits this kind of utilization.

You're on the right track. Wes and Benson know a ton of theory even if they can't express it in tradition terms. The issue isn't whether or not you can express theory in traditional terms. Look at Allen Holdsworth for example: Have you ever seen his instructional video with his flip-charts and weird notation? It's like Alien-Theory!?! Yet, it's still theory. Whether it's the same theory I use is not the issue. The point is that he understands the fundamentals of chord movement and how to construct melodic lines over chords. If you can achieve that by copying the masters and with no formal training I have no problem with that. Some of the best musicians and artists in history were self taught.

However you spin it, whether you're Joe Bonamassa playing blues or John Abercrombie playing polychords you've got a knowledge of some type of theory.

My point is that learning the rudiments of keys signatures, harmonizing basic scales and applying chord-scale principals is no more complex than learning the multiplication table.

It may seem daunting but it's not , really...

StevenA

01-23-2006, 09:22 PM

Whatever Jack,

I've seen the posted video of you playing Giant Steps. That's good enough for me.

Steven

Tom Gross

01-23-2006, 09:41 PM

King, Lincoln, and Kennedy
King, Lincoln, and Kennedy all studied rhetoric

StevenA

01-23-2006, 10:12 PM

King, Lincoln, and Kennedy all studied rhetoric

Theoretical rhetoric?
I love studying. I just want the most efficient way of getting from here to there. My time is limited and I must make choices. I have done my homework, put huge amounts of time into jazz theory and I now chose to spend almost no further time hashing out melodic possibilities or alternatives. My playing is being souped up by engaging in a huge diet of listening and gleaning possibilities from the playing of others. In reading many interviews of fine jazz players, I can recall very little mentioned regarding one theoretical treatise or another. But I pay attention when these players reveal their musical influences. In any event, to each his own. Your way, is not my way, except when it is.

Steven

TBone

01-23-2006, 10:27 PM

My point is that learning the rudiments of keys signatures, harmonizing basic scales and applying chord-scale principals is no more complex than learning the multiplication table.

It may seem daunting but it's not , really...

Correct - it always came back to basic math. And as far as the keyboard - theory is much easier because everything is linear. With the guitar, you have the same repeating notes on different strings. But for basic music theory, the linear layout of the piano makes it much easier to understand. And the key of C is a common place to start because the major scale is all white keys.

So in the simpliest form, two adjacent notes are a half step - keys or frets. Two half steps equal a whole step.

Take the progression of a major scale - whole step, whole step, half step, whole step, whole step, whole step half step. This progression of notes starting anywhere will produce a major scale.

Then if you assign numbers to this major scale - 1 thru 8 with 8 being the octave, a combination of note numbers 1, 3, 5 is always a major chord. These can be voiced alternately as 3, 5, 8 or 5, 8, 3 but still represent the same major chord. This is way basic but it all grows from this simple math. Flat the 3rd and you get the minor chord, Flat the 3rd and 5th and it's dimished. etc - the numbers don't change. Classical theory is good to know but a lot of it not useful in modern music IMO. But basic theory can really be a big help and is a worthy investment of your time.

Tbone

neve1073

01-24-2006, 04:43 PM

Classical theory is good to know but a lot of it not useful in modern music IMO.

See I still disagree with this. It's true, classical harmony is not really sufficient to deal with modern jazz harmony (it can but it's an ugly stretch) as Jzucker pointed out, but it's a great place to start. Most pop tunes are easily analyzable with classical harmony. Learning counterpoint is a great way to learn voice leading on your axe. Chord inversions and basic functional harmony can all be expanded later to encompass other languages like modern jazz.

It is the long way round, but in my experience you can miss a lot taking shortcuts.

my 2 cents.

Administrator

01-24-2006, 05:30 PM

Years ago i put a lot of time into learning theory. Even after i had a grip on modes and chord/scale construction i didn't feel that it changed my playing a whole lot. Early on it helped with harmony, knowing what was going on during jams and talking music during band practice and writing tunes.

These days i'm not sure what elements have shown up in my playing from learing all i could but it sure opened up the doors on where to go when writing, jamming, playing out there....etc.

For some players learing theory may not reinvent or even change what they do but I think it is a must know. It gives you something to draw on when you go into uncharted waters or try different styles. IMO even if you can't 'play in modes' its a valuable tool to have.

Rush_898

02-02-2006, 08:20 AM

It's hard to gauge the effect something has on your playing when you've been studying it and applying it, because you can't go back and see where you would have been without. For myself I am in the midst of realizing how I've internalized the theory knowledge I was coerced into learning by my teacher, and then it comes out without me consciously thinking about it. I personally hated the CAGED system, I disliked learning chords before note names and arpeggio construction. I had to go back and talk to someone who tunes piano's and find out about how the Western major scale is contstructed around frequency deviations...like FM radio stations really led me into seeing the purpose of it all. You begin at 440 Herz and branch out from there. Once I understood why a C Major scale had no accidentals, and why in the chromatic scale B-C, and E-F are half steps instead of whole. It all comes down the very basic elements of frequency and the ears differentiation of tones. Then I was ready to piece together chords from every other step in a scale. C-E-G, etc. Once I had gone through this phase things began to clear up and the fog and mystique of 'theory' was lifted for me. The basics of theory is just observed relationships between musical tones, that's all it is. So I guess my advice for learning theory is to not to buy into any single 'system' of thinking about it, because all the labels and fancy words are arbitrary, it's the concepts that matter. Whether you think of it as Uncle Tim's Theory On Them There Major Chord Thingy's or in a more traditional sense if you have the same understanding of the relationips of chords to scale degrees, notes, etc then you will be in a great position for learning another languages labels for the same exact idea. It's like scale shapes to me. I see dozens of books with scale shapes for every key on guitar. These things are a hundred pages thick and more, but if you go back to the root of it and take a little time to learn key signatures and you know your fretboard then you have all of the knowledge in those books at your fingertips. I've found that after while I don't think in scale shapes for the most part anyways, I think in key signatures, because in reality that is what each scale is indicating. I know I've just reiterate some good points, but one more opinion can't hurt.

Cheers.

GuitslingerTim

02-03-2006, 08:01 PM

I've tried, and tried.:(

Reading through one website to another, each one becoming more and more confusing than the last.

Maybe I'm doomed:(

I'm just an intermediate hack, but I can get you started.

First you must learn the chromatic scale. It consists of the 12 possible notes plus the octave, ordered according to the key note in the scale. In this case I'm demonstrating the C chromatic scale:

C C# D D# E F F# G G# A A# B C

The chromatic scales can be played up any string in intervals of a half-step, or one fret right after another, or across several strings. The main thing to be learned from the chromatic scale is that a half step spans the distance of one fret, a whole step spans the distance of two frets. If the sequence of notes starts or ends with any other note, then a different chromatic scale in a different key is created.

All musical theory is rooted in the diatonic scale, more commonly and practically known as the major scale. The major scales are obviously derived from the chromatic scales, consisting of the 1st, 3rd, 5th, 6th, 8th, 10th, 12th, and 13th notes of the chromatic scale. The major scale is the key to understanding why chords are made up of specific notes, and why specific scales are played over specific chords. This example is the C major scale:

C D E F G A B C

Every note in the major scale is assigned a numeric position:

C-D-E-F-G-A--B--C
I II III IV V VI VII VIII

The reason a C major chord consists of the notes C, E, and G is because every major chord is derived from the 1st, 3rd, and 5th notes of the major scale in a given key. In order to play lead guitar over a C major chord, some or all of the notes within the C major scale will have to be used.

Minor chords consist of the 1st, flat 3rd, and 5th tones of the major scale, so accordingly the notes of a C minor chord are C, D#, and G. A flat note is derived by dropping a note within the major scale a half-step. By changing a note within a major scale a new scale is created; in this case the new scale is a C relative-minor scale, which as you may have guessed is one of the scales that can be used for playing lead lines over a C minor chord.

I'm going to stop there, but if you want to know more I'll continue. What I've shown you explains how major and minor chords are derived and an appropriate scale that can be played over each one.

amper

02-25-2006, 10:14 PM

Given that you're posting on The Gear Page, you probably have a pretty good understanding of Music Theory at some level, but are just unable for one reason or many to communicate what you know. The important part of music, after all, is listening.

The most basic level of theory, IMHO, is rhythm, and it's related topics, tempo, timing, and phrasing. Once we have these ideas firmly fixed, we should probably think a bit about dynamics. Or put dynamics first, if you like.

Next we might progress to harmonic realtionships, starting with intervallic relationships and chord progressions (which are actually easier to learn if you don't focus so much on how exactly to make those chords...just use the tonics, or root notes, for the time being), to help you understand concepts such as "resolution". Take a side trip into intonation systems.

Next we want to start thinking a bit more in depth about harmony, including chord structures and such.

Then we can progress to melodic relationships, scales and so forth. If your wondering why I put melody after harmony, it's because I don't think you can really understand melody without learning harmony first.

At this point, we can really start to get a handle on compositional skills, so we can take all those things we've previously learned and put them to good use as communication tools in the context of a song, or opus, if you will.

Theory can be a wonderful thing, but many people can get a little too caught up in it. There's an amazing amount of very moving music that's been made with the simple, but powerful, I-IV-V (tonic, subdominant, dominant) progression. Hell, I could play I-IV all day and be happy.

Music Theory is just an inconvenient way to talk about things to which we should be listening.

Dickie Fredericks

02-26-2006, 07:52 AM

You wanna know Theory and Jazz? This post is intended for those folks who want to know the theory and be able to improvise in any key. This assumes you know what all the notes on the fretboard are. I have found no other method for learning how to improvise and play over changes than this.

www.jazzbooks.com

This is Jamey Aebersolds routine. I suggest you start with vol.1 and vol. 21 which is where I started. I have used this with my students as well to get them both the theory and the mechanics.

How did I find this? I once saw a metal guy doing Charlie Parker licks over Death Metal rythyms. I also saw this guy play in his Jazz band. I asked him for lessons. He turned me on to Jameys stuff and there has been no looking back. I hope it helps you as much as it has helped me.

Once you learn it and it becomes ingrained, you'll forget it and it will become a part of you.

Imagine... You have a group of guys playing in all keys they start in C and play for 4 bars then go to G for 4 bars then D then A then E 4 bars each and you solo over it changing keys each time. Then they do it in 2 bar segments. Then 1 bar segments.

Killer....

Then after you know all this you never use it cause you're playing Sweet Home Alabama at the local bar for $150 a night with your band LOL

Richard

PM me if you need any other help.

Ned B

03-10-2006, 11:21 PM

I was a music major in college and studied Walter Piston. Having a non-instrument specific perspective on music is great, but not practicle when there is barely enough time to just get good playing under your fingers. But if you strive to learn a lot of music and be prolific with your repertoire, the theory is going come naturally.

HarryJ

03-12-2006, 09:34 AM

There have been some very good suggestions here.
To some folks theory is simply scales, modes, intervals, and at first perhaps it is.

I.M.H.O, understanding theory, (including the study of rhythmic subdivisions, drop voicings etc...) can give the player the tools to help create, both from a compositional perspective as well as improvisational.

You can learn a parker solo note for note, or learn a standard. You then have THAT solo, or song, or you can analyze it to see why and how it functions against a particular set of chord changes or implied changes for that matter.

You can then take that knowledge and apply it in countless DIFFERENT ways, with endless variations, and dynamic contrasts, thus enabling you to be more creative in the true sense of the word, as opposed to strictly emulative.

I can't count how many times someone has replied with "some of the all time greats didn't understand theory" I agree with Jack Z. and suggest that they certainly did understand it. Albeit, perhaps it took them 20+ years to get there.

Got 20 years???

Hit me wit' your best flames... I'm suited up :-)

Harry Jacobson
Senior Faculty National Guitar Workshop
www.harryj.net (http://www.harryj.net)

fr8_trane

03-12-2006, 11:21 AM

Here's some practical information. These 2 websites are the best I have found for dealing with theory as it relates to songwriting and guitar respectively. Chris Juergensens site in particular is immensely valuable.

Music Theory for Songwriters
http://members.aol.com/chordmaps/

http://chrisjuergensen.com/
(click on lessons)

The bottom line is this: Learn the major scale, learn the intervals contained in the major scale, learn the harmonized major scale.

From there you now have access to the concepts of key signature, triads, arpeggios, chord construction, modes, and altered harmony. Its all built off of the major scale.