Pre War D-28 style Collings or Santa Cruz???

[reddgeetarzan]

Hey all....

I'm in the market for a nice pre-war appointed D-28 style dread.(probably Indian Rosewood, due to costs)-also not sure if I'm going with the Adirondack top or not.......

I've been looking primarily at Collings and Santa Cruz- anyone have any experience in comparing the two? Any tone, playability, quality/longevity, price issues between the two???

I'm open to suggestion.......

Thanks!

RG

[Eugene]

I've played a number of SCGC dreads and OM's...they are very fine instruments. I own 2 Colling's...a Ds1-A and a 00-1A. IMHO, they just feel a bit more traditional to me than they Santa Cruz's. I love the neck shapes on the Collings and the construction is virtually flawless. Maybe its me, but the Collings just seems rock solid to me construction-wise...more so than any other acoustic brand I've played.

In terms of Adirondack, both of my guitars have the Adi top and I feel it makes a difference. The down-side is that you'll wind up paying a $500-$700 premium for it, but I feel its worth it. If you're looking for a real bluegrass machine, definitely check out a 12 fret dread (Santa Cruz makes one as well)...they are just incredible and can move ALOT of air. To be honest, my guitars both have mahogany backs/sides and they have plenty of bass thump for their respective sizes. I think rosewood would probably be a bit boomy for my tastes.

I know its a cliche, but you really can't go wrong with either. However, I have had nothing but great experiences with Collings and they have my highest recommendation.

Good luck!

Eugene

[itsjustgas]

red-

You can't go wrong with either SCGC or Collings. Consistently great guitars. The Collings might give you a more "thumpier" bass, if that's important to you, but both are excellent choices. I don't think dealers discount more than 10% on these so you can figure out of pocket $$ if the retail price is listed. I had a Santa Cruz dred a couple of years ago that was great but, now have a Collings D-42 that is a cannon.

You might also want to check out Goodall's Traditional Dred. Beautiful balanced sound with great volume. Not quite as deep as the Collings, but close, and his necks are sweet and smooth! And I own one of these, too.

Try a bunch, and pick the one that says "take me home"!

jeff

[riffmeister]

You can't go wrong with either SCGC or Collings. Consistently great guitars.....Try a bunch, and pick the one that says "take me home"!

This is PERFECT advice!

I've tried dreads & OMs from both builders. My ear prefers Collings (D1A and OM1A) but for every Collings enthusiast, there is someone who prefers Santa Cruz. It's completely subjective as to which is 'best'. As a generalization, though, I'd say that Collings guitars are generally brighter in timbre than Santa Cruz guitars when comparing instruments with similar body styles & woods.

[riffmeister]

P.S. Adirondack does make a difference in sound compared to Sitka, in my experience, with Collings guitars. I started with an OM2H (Sitka/EI rosewood) and eventually sold it for an OM1A (Adirondack/mahogany), a D1 (Sitka/mahogany) and sold it for a D1A (Adirondack /mahogany). Again, a subjective thing.....my ears found Adirondack to sound 'better'.

[Bryan T]

I've been looking primarily at Collings and Santa Cruz- anyone have any experience in comparing the two? Any tone, playability, quality/longevity, price issues between the two???

As has been mentioned, play both guitars and see which you prefer. Make sure the guitars have fresh strings so that you have a level playing field.

Since you mentioned looking for a pre-war style, I thought I'd throw in my two cents. I have two Santa Cruz guitars: a D/PW and an OM/PW. The PW guitars have forward shifted bracing, which (to my ears at least) gives the guitars more high end sparkle than non-forward shifted bracing. I've played lots of Collings guitars and none of them have had the high end that the PW guitars have, the Collings have a stronger fundamental tone. Some people like sparkle, others like more fundamental. I'm a fingerstyle player, so the sparkle works well for me. My other guitar is a Goodall, which is all about sparkle. If you are primarily a strummer, then too much sparkle can get in the way.

Regarding playability: Both guitars can be set up to play as well as any guitar on the market. Santa Cruz usually ships with a pretty high setup, so buy from a shop that will include a good setup. I prefer the neck finish that Santa Cruz over Collings.

Regarding quality: I'd give the edge to Collings. I think that their finishes are more consistent than Santa Cruz. Guitars from both companies should last more than a lifetime.

Regarding price: The Santa Cruz PW guitars are their cheapest. My D/PW was $2250 and my OM/PW was $2300. They raised the prices on these about a year ago and some dealers price the guitars around $2600 now, which I think is a bit too much for such a simple guitar. Most Collings I've played have been in the $3K+ price range, including an $8K dread with Brazilian and Adirondack.

Bryan

[MichaelK]

I prefer the tone of Santa Cruz every time, but it's a matter of personal taste. You've really got to play both and see how you feel.

[Mrgearguy]

I've got a D2H, and it never fails to make me smile when I play it. The notes are even all the way across the board and the clarity of notes within each chord leaves my Martin in the dust. Maybe not the biggest or boomiest D-Type (the Martin gets that award) but the articulation is sublime.

Gearguy

[No Code 5]

I recently purchased a Martin D-28 Marquis... their answer to the other guitars mentioned in this thread. It is a beautiful guitar. It has the adi top and EI back and sides. Pre WWII bracing (Forward shifted), fossilized bone for the nut and bridge, larger "modified V" neck, etc.

Very nice woods throughout and top notch construction

Really head and shoulders above the standard Martins. It was the best sounding and playing new acoustic I had ever experienced. Big sound and the strong bass doesn't over power the mids and highs like on some Martins I have played.

I would suggest trying one of these as well. It has THE Martin dreadnaught tone.

[JPERRYROCKS]

Do all of Collings Dread style guitars come with a V neck, or can you order it differently.

[jokerjkny]

the santa cruz D-PW is by far one of the best values your money can buy.

while i still remember when they went retail for $2150, the newer prices arent that bad compared to alot of the collings stuff i've seen.

the collings gear is great, but honestly, right outta the box, a santa cruz just satisfies. most collings i've seen/owned take at least a good month of gigging to open up, which i found annoying.

BUT,

what's really surprised me these days is Martin's good ol' D-28. if you go to a reputable store like acoustic roots in philly or mandolin bros in staten island, the D-28's they've been getting have been STELLAR. my friend picked up one and it costed him waaaaaaaaaaaaay less than i expected. just a terrific pre-war sound.

[Gazza]

Collings

[Mr.Hanky]

I would not rule out Martin either, heck I bought a D-41 10 years ago and I played just about everything they had at Mandolin Brothers, including the above two. All are great, it just depends on which one speaks to you.

[reddgeetarzan]

Wow! Thanks you guys!

I did manage to get my hands on a Santa Cruz very recently- it was not the D/PW- but the standard D with Adi top- man......that thing was SWEEEEEEET.
At a list of over $4K it should be! I have a friend that swears by his Collings guitars- The D2H is right at 3K- the Santa Cruz is about $500 more- the only problem for me is there really are no Collings dealers close to me- and the closest I've found doesn't have what I'm looking for in stock....so the best advice I've received "Try a bunch, and pick the one that says "take me home"!"- may not exactly work out for me at this time- but that IS great advice!!!!!

I'll keep you all informed!

Thanks again for the help- I'm leaning slightly towards the Collings at this point.....if I could only have one of each!

RG

[MichaelK]

I'm leaning slightly towards the Collings at this point.

Not that it matters to me, but this kind of thing always baffles me so I'd like to ask.

You've never played a Collings, you've taken a poll on the internet, and now it's what you're leaning toward.

Why?

Just curious, is all, because it seems like an expensive decision to base only on majority opinion.

[Chops]

I recently purchased a Martin D-28 Marquis... their answer to the other guitars mentioned in this thread.

This is the first one I would check out if I were looking for a guitar of this type. it is, afterall, a genuine D-28.

[No Code 5]

This is the first one I would check out if I were looking for a guitar of this type. it is, afterall, a genuine D-28.

That was my thought... and experience... the sound is classic d-28. Those other companies make great guitars that have great tones, but they are still a bit different than a d-28.

I think the Marquis will take up the majority of my evening tonight... :BEER

[reddgeetarzan]

That's a good queston. At this point, I have played the Santa Cruz- I actually got my hands on the D/PW last night- as much as I liked it, I was not "blown away" by it- it did not scream "take me home!!!!".
I also have played about 20 different Martins- NONE of them had what I was looking for- they all sounded lifeless in comparison to the SC's I have heard. I'm not willing to spend the $$$ it takes to get a Martin of this calibur- it seems they want over $5K for what I've seen the "custom" builders making for nearly half that.

I have a very good friend that owns several Collings guitars and is good friends with a Collings dealer, so he's played many Collings guitars- he has, in fact, found one that he says, and I quote.. "simply, one of the best guitars I've ever played". He also owns one of the best sounding acoustics I've personally played- a '64 Epi Texan. I trust his opinion on these matters, but I also wanted to get the opinions of those on TGP, as I know many of you out there share the same feelings on the "quest for tone" as I do.....

I've found that when you ask those "in the know" (TGP members!) about things like this, they are usually right on the money!!! I've not been steered wrong yet.....and the overwhelming response was all very positive in regards to the Collings...that being said- I have to at least give it a try, and with the resale values on them, I can't lose too much if I don't like it!

THanks to everyone who has given input on this subject!!!!!

I'm not going totally blind on this one- but I've gone with a Collings D2H....I'll post my thoughts when I get it- it will be a few weeks...

RG
Not that it matters to me, but this kind of thing always baffles me so I'd like to ask.

You've never played a Collings, you've taken a poll on the internet, and now it's what you're leaning toward.

Why?

Just curious, is all, because it seems like an expensive decision to base only on majority opinion.

[MichaelK]

I actually got my hands on the D/PW last night- as much as I liked it, I was not "blown away" by it- it did not scream "take me home!!!!".

Well, that's a very good reason NOT to buy it! I know what you mean. I've played some SCs that left me feeling "eh...."

I serious doubt you'll be disappointed, I was just wondering. Me, I can only buy an acoustic if I or someone whose ears I trust has actually played it. They're all SO different.

Martin sometimes still comes out with great guitars. But because they're not voiced with the care and attention of the great builders, it's random. It has nothing to do with the model or the price... JMO. I played a few in Austin at the Folk Alliance conference, the ones at the Martin booth that they had hand-picked to show to professionals... and they all sounded like ass. Nice inlays on one. But I'd never buy it.

I should add, by the way, that the best 12-fret dread I've ever played or heard was an Adirondack Collings. It was a f*cking cannon.

[aoguitars]

just an addition to all the great advice given here (and this takes time and experience to listen for it), but on brand new guitars try to hear how the guitar will open up over time. most times, new guitars need to played a lot to really develop their sound and volume. spruce tops especially start off stiff, so when you play these guitars in stores and you find one that feels great but the projection may not be there, just know that it will improve a lot as you play it and that top has a chance to vibrate. that's why with new guitars I go for feel of the neck and the overall color of the sound, realizing that the projection and tone will open up over the years (you can even accelerate it by leaving your guitar between stereo speakers--anything to get the wood vibrating a lot).

having said this though, if you find a new one that really blows you away, don't let it go--it will only continue to get better. that's the beautiful thing about aged guitars. good luck!

[reddgeetarzan]

MOST excellent advice! I hadn't put a whole lot of thought into how the guitar will mature down the road- very useful information indeed.;)
RG

[MichaelK]

if you find a new one that really blows you away, don't let it go--it will only continue to get better.

That's all very true, and you have a good point. But see, that's the thing...

For that kind of money, I would want something that knocks me out, that I love at the get-go and that I'll love more as it opens up acoustically. Not someting I "like" that I'll like more. Both builders make brand new guitars that sound fantastic the day they hit the store... some more than others, anyway.

[reddgeetarzan]

You hit that one RIGHT on the money. I went last night and played a SC DA 1- it was very nice, in fact, MUCH nicer sounding, looking and playing than the D/PW I played the other night. It lacked a little bit of the bottom end I was looking for out of it, but it was very nice. All in all, I think I've made the right decision based on my friends opinion of Collings in question- we'll see!!!

Does anyone know the out the door price of the Marquis these days???
I haven't been able to find any locally to play, only the D-28V....

[riffmeister]

here's a clip of my Collings D1A:

http://media.putfile.com/Little-Red-Truck

fingerstyle....no picks

[reddgeetarzan]

That was NICE! I especially liked the little bluesy bend you snuck right into the middle.....very tasteful playing!!!:BEER

Thanks to all of you for your input on this- it really is a big decision for me, and its really helped me to make an informed choice. I'll post my findings when the guitar arrives- it will be a few weeks- I have to sell some other gear before I can bring her home (doghouse rules!):o

RG

[smiert spionam]

Lots of good advice here. I looked at Collings at Santa Cruz quite a bit while shopping for a slope-shouldered dread, though I ended up with a vintage J45. In general, Santa Cruz has always seemed to me to sound the most like a well-aged opened-up vintage box. That's a big generalization, of course, and it's the individual guitar that you have to take home, not the brand.

I played a Martin D28 Marquis, and was really impressed. The first new Martin I've played that really was on par with the best of the small-shop builders. Great guitar.

[TravisE]

Does anyone know the out the door price of the Marquis these days???
I haven't been able to find any locally to play, only the D-28V....

I think you'll find most dealers are asking somewhere around $3250. Most of them are fantastic guitars. I've probably played 20 or so of these things now and I'll bet LESS than 5 or so weren't up to par.

FWIW, I was trying to pick an OM for a guy the other day. I played several including Collings, Martin OM28V's, Marquis, etc...probably 6 or 8 guitars. The best one was, by far, a Marquis. That guitar has tone that I've only heard from 30's & 40's Martins. I was blown away. In the end, the guy was set on getting a shaded (burst) top so he went with another guitar. I wanted to reach through the phone and knock him in the head but, what ya gonna do, ya know? The guitar he got was the second best of the bunch but, man, that one Marquis just kills!

[reddgeetarzan]

Hey Travis,

How's it going?? Remember me- Scott, from Cincinnati- we did the Mod 30/ Deluxe trade- how's that amp doing? I'm sure its long gone- I did trade the Mod off- the guy just loves it- wasn't my cup of tea, but a GREAT amp- I do miss that Deluxe! One of the best I've heard.

Nobody around here stocks the Marquis- I went with the Collings D2H- for the money, it seems to be the best of the bunch, and I have a friend who "hand picked" the guitar for me in person- I trust him, so I know its going to be a killer- and about $350 less than the Marquis, and about $450 less than the SC's I've seen that compared......I'm not used to buying guitars blind, but I've had some luck when I have!

Oh yeah- Martin DOES make that guitar with a Sunburst finish- its more of the orange sunrise type, not the Gibson darkburst.....

Thanks for the info- I will be checking out the Marquis when I can find when to put my hands on. I couldn't lose on the Collings- the price was in my range, and it came VERY highly recommended both here and by the person who picked this particular one out for me...we'll see!

RG

[TravisE]

Hey Travis,

How's it going?? Remember me- Scott, from Cincinnati- we did the Mod 30/ Deluxe trade- how's that amp doing? I'm sure its long gone- I did trade the Mod off- the guy just loves it- wasn't my cup of tea, but a GREAT amp- I do miss that Deluxe! One of the best I've heard.

Nobody around here stocks the Marquis- I went with the Collings D2H- for the money, it seems to be the best of the bunch, and I have a friend who "hand picked" the guitar for me in person- I trust him, so I know its going to be a killer- and about $350 less than the Marquis, and about $450 less than the SC's I've seen that compared......I'm not used to buying guitars blind, but I've had some luck when I have!

Oh yeah- Martin DOES make that guitar with a Sunburst finish- its more of the orange sunrise type, not the Gibson darkburst.....

Thanks for the info- I will be checking out the Marquis when I can find when to put my hands on. I couldn't lose on the Collings- the price was in my range, and it came VERY highly recommended both here and by the person who picked this particular one out for me...we'll see!

RG

Hey Scott,

Good to hear from you. Yea, the Deluxe was traded long ago. I've got a Carr Rambler now that I absolutely love.

As for the Collings, we sell those as well and I really can't imagine you being disappointed in it. I've never played a Collings that I thought just wasn't a good guitar. Sure some are always gonna be better than others but Colling's build quality is second to none.

[A440]

the Collings axes are great. have played some OM's and D's (especially one with an Adirondack top) that blew me away

The huss and dalton OMs blew me away, but a bit out of my range

I ended up with an HD-28VE. I've played 28V's that were total cannons. I'm hoping this one opens up nicely over time...

[bobeau]

the Collings axes are great. have played some OM's and D's (especially one with an Adirondack top) that blew me away

The huss and dalton OMs blew me away, but a bit out of my range

I ended up with an HD-28VE. I've played 28V's that were total cannons. I'm hoping this one opens up nicely over time...


I _love_ my Huss and Dalton CM. And I've played a ton of high end acoustics, living just a couple miles from Buffalo Bros here in San Diego. Not sure what it is with this guitar exactly, it has a Fender Blackface kinda tone to it, perhaps due to the Englemann top that holds up under heavy picking.

I so much wanted to fall in love with a Collings, have played so many - in my hands they all seem so... sterile. Too strong on the fundamental perhaps.

[Long2Play]

Count me for another Santa Cruz vote! Richard Hoover and his crew make killer guitars!

[reddgeetarzan]

Well.......here is the BIG moment for me! I finally got my hands on the guitar........

I went with a Collings D2HA- I don't have a base to compare the non Adirondack top with, so my observations are strictly on this guitar.
I bought it used and got a great deal, which ALWAYS makes a guitar sound better......right??? Paid a tad over $2400 with shipping for it, so I'm very happy to say the least. My first impressions is that this IS THE guitar I've been looking for. It has the slightly wider width at the nut (1 3/4" vs the 1 11/16ths) and the neck shape is just right.....not to big, not too small with a comfy V shape to it. The guitar just BOOMS, but it has beautiful overtones and complexity to the notes. One thing I noticed immediately is how nicely the harmonics ring out on this- I mean its just "bell" like- they really sound massive. The volume of the guitar is not overdone by the wonderful tone- I'm a firm believer that a lot of the tone, no matter what the guitar, is in the hands, although I know some guitars fundamentally will have different sounds. The guitar does NOT sound sterile to my ears- its loud, responsive, clear, rings pure, and most of all, has a very nice quality to the notes- I'M VERY VERY HAPPY WITH THE COLLINGS!!!!!!!!

In summary, I do believe this was the right guitar for me- I wanted something that had volume, but could also sound beautiful at finger picking volumes.

THANKS TO ALL OF YOU WHO GAVE YOUR OPINIONS!!!!!!!!! That's what I love about this forum- opinions DO matter!!!!!!!!:AOK

I am one happy Collings customer!!!!! Now I can move on to the next obsession.........whatever that may be.:dude

[riffmeister]

I am one happy Collings customer!!!!! Now I can move on to the next obsession.........whatever that may be.:dude

Congrats!! :BEER

Now that you have one Collings, what will be your second????? :D

[elambo]

Congrats!! :BEER

Now that you have one Collings, what will be your second????? :D

Sure, you laugh NOW, but just wait. I swore when I bought my first Collings that it would be enough to keep me satisfied for a loooong time. And it did... until I found a German Spruce topped OM hanging in my local store. I wasn't "shopping" that day, or even in the mood to buy, but I tell you that I couldn't have been without that guitar after I played it. Bought it on the spot.

reddgeetarzan - You don't need assurance anymore, especially now that you HAVE your D2H, but I'll say anyway that you've invested in the best. I've spent a lot of time talking about, playing, and tweaking Collings guitars, and there's nothing else like them. Build quality 2nd to none, the tone of life, and a company that's obsessive and willing to do whatever it takes to make and keep the customer happy.

Congratulations. You made the right choice.

[retro]

Congratulations...and welcome to the Collings family.

And yep be careful of those Collings OM's ;)
http://www.psquaredstudio.com/Collings1.jpg

[dlxtele]

Congrats on the new guitar. I think the zing you mention is the result of the Adirondack top. I just got a Martin D-18V which is very balanced tonally. I ran across a 2006 D-18V that was custom ordered with an Adironndack top (that is a $1000 option for the premium top) and it was zingier than mine, a lot more. More overtones on the high-end and it sounded more like a Rosewood bodied guitar.

For my needs I liked the balance and stronger fundamental tones of the mahgany/sitka combo. I already have the rosewood strong bass, attenuated (sounding) mids and top end zing covered.

[reddgeetarzan]

Congrats!! :BEER

Now that you have one Collings, what will be your second????? :D

Ha! I've been jinxed now.......funny you say that!!!!! I just found a GREAT deal on a Collings D2H (yes, another), but this one is Brazilian RW......and it has Mr Collings signature on the tag!!!
I'd like to vary my choices a bit- maybe an OM or something along those lines...
It will be a few weeks before I can get the funds (sell enough stuff to come up with the cash)......but I'll keep you posted.

Thanks again you guys- It's been a lot of fun going over the decision and hearing everyone's opinions- I've listened to them all

[riffmeister]

I have a Collings Dread & OM. Great combo of acoustics to have. My acoustic GAS is mostly for classicals these days. Talk about an expensive (but rewarding) hobby.....

[Praline]

I prefer the tone of Santa Cruz every time, but it's a matter of personal taste. You've really got to play both and see how you feel.

My findings are similar. I liked both SC & Collings guitars I played, but the SC were better for me and consistently sounded more like I wanted.