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View Full Version : The CAGED Chord system, all roads lead to Dollywood


Clifford-D
10-20-2013, 08:02 PM
How do you use the concept of the CAGED Chord system in your life?

How did you come to understand it?

How have you "stretched" the concept into new ways to think it?

How have you simplified the concept?

How many here have simplified it down to two shapes, not five?

How many here have created six unique fingerings?

How many people here look at it as one "map" type picture?


How many here have their own stories about the CAGED chord system to share?

H_V_C
10-20-2013, 08:07 PM
I'm just about to start a flick with the lady. I'm saving this space, I'll be back!

smj
10-20-2013, 08:49 PM
Honestly, I must be dense, I still don't even know what the CAGED system is. I actually did try to watch lessons on YT as to what it was, how it was used...etc... but I didn't get it... nor how it would help me..

:dunno

Sean Meredith-Jones
www.seanmeredithjones.com (http://www.seanmeredithjones.com)

Bryan T
10-20-2013, 08:54 PM
I use it as a basis for teaching major scale positions and finding common chord voicings on the guitar neck. From there, I teach the student to identify any interval relative to the root. Then we start altering tones to create whatever scale, chord, or arpeggio they need.

I do want to point out that before we get to CAGED the student can play (and improvise with) the major scale along a string. I'm "allergic" to position playing and try to help people avoid getting stuck in boxes. I think by starting with moving along the string first, then introducing the CAGED boxes, that it helps the student play what they want to hear, not what their fingers want to play.

Ultimately, CAGED is a useful way to view the guitar neck.

Silver
10-20-2013, 09:04 PM
Honestly, I must be dense, I still don't even know what the CAGED system is. I actually did try to watch lessons on YT as to what it was, how it was used...etc... but I didn't get it... nor how it would help me..

:dunno

Sean Meredith-Jones
www.seanmeredithjones.com (http://www.seanmeredithjones.com)

I'd never heard of it until I came here to be honest. I'm assuming it's; Open C chord shape, open A chord shape, G chord shape, etc... Up or down the neck with the same root as a way of learning to navigate or map out the fretboard. I think if you were to be shown your first few chords and maybe one scale box shape and then left completely alone with it for a while, it's a fairly natural way to learn the fretboard. Was for me anyway. Wouldn't say I use it as such, it's just kind of there.

cubistguitar
10-20-2013, 09:54 PM
I guess I have seen the material, but never really read it. I understood already that a scale has multiple ways of being fingered across the fretboard and just kinda gradually figured out where stuff was. I suppose this can accelerate ones knowledge of where some patterns line up on the neck. Relating chord shapes to scale positions is positive I suppose. I often work chords a while before I get into my scales-- makes me look at them differently. Less a finger workout -more an interval thing.

flavaham
10-20-2013, 10:09 PM
I've never actually studied the CAGED system. I kind of understand the concept though. I think I am aware of its existance when playing but usually just because I stumbled across it.

I use chord tones for the bulk of my soloing and because of this I end up looking for triads and chord shapes wherever I can find them. So, if I am in fact using CAGED, (which would be subconsciously since I really haven't studied it) I suppose I'm using it to move around the fret board and keep myself from playing in one position, and keep it melodic rather than scalar playing.

Clifford-D
10-21-2013, 09:02 AM
Honestly, I must be dense, I still don't even know what the CAGED system is. I actually did try to watch lessons on YT as to what it was, how it was used...etc... but I didn't get it... nor how it would help me..

:dunno

Sean Meredith-Jones
www.seanmeredithjones.com (http://www.seanmeredithjones.com)

Maybe I can help.

The CAGED Chords System is simple

1. It starts with the five "cowboy" chords. The E A G D and C chords. Rearrange them so they spell the word CAGED.

2. Now, if you can, think of these five chords as five physical shapes on the fretboard, let's look at the E shape, one of the most important shapes.

- The E shape, and how the shape can move up and down the neck and gets renamed

.E......F.......G. etc...
-0-----1-----3
-0-----1-----3
-1-----2-----4
-2-----3-----5
-2-----3-----5
-0-----1-----3-etc...

Most of us are aware of this E shape and how the shape goes up and down the neck. This is true for all five shapes, up and down, names change, same shape,,


The next important feature of the CAGED chords is NOT BY DESIGN, just a freak of nature.

1. Play a C chord (cowboy style).
- Now let's find the other four C chords by moving up the neck,,

2. The next C chord up the neck will use the A SHAPE.

.C using C shape........C using A shape
----------------------------------------------
-1-----------------------5-------------------
-0-----------------------5-------------------
-2-----------------------5-------------------
-3-----------------------3-------------------
----------------------------------------------

The C chord moves up the neck and uses all five shapes, and that SPELLS the word CAGED, just a strange coincidence,,,

The C chord moving up the neck using all five shapes
C shape.....A shape.....G shape.......E shape.......D shape
----------------------8----------8---------12
-1----------5---------5----------8---------13
-0----------5---------5----------9---------12
-2----------5---------5---------10---------!0
-3----------5---------7---------10-----------
----------------------8----------8-----------

That is the basic concept, simplified,,,,done

So
Please raise your hand if you are confused, I kept this post short on words on purpose, so others can chime in and fill the holes.

More advanced stuff to come, I hope I did a decent job at keeping this much of the CAGED chords simple to understand.

ZeyerGTR
10-21-2013, 09:50 AM
I never really learned "the system" per say, I just kind of stumbled upon the concept by noticing patterns around the neck... and learning lots of chord and interval shapes.

buddyboy69
10-21-2013, 10:18 AM
i just learned all the possible major chord inversions and practiced them in each key. before the"CAGED" system was a "thing". then, wait for it.......did it with minor chords.......

Clifford-D
10-21-2013, 10:31 AM
So, what is a C chord?

start with the C major scale
C D E F G A B - C

Next, put those notes in an order of 3rds,,
C E G B D F A

This new "3rds" order of C E G B D F A is how every chord in the C scale is made.

CEG = C chord
DFA = Dm chord
EGB = Em chord
FAC = F chord
GBD = G chord
ACE = Am chord
BDF = B diminished chord

Those are the basic triads you can get from the C major scale.

All these chords and chord types like minor, diminished, major,, they are all candidates for the CAGED chords.
Am can be found in each fretboard area for each of the five chord shape (CAGED shapes)

But my example above only focused on the C chord and how it flows through all shapes.
- Just get the hang of the simple C chord first, work with it.
- try the same thing with the other four shapes (AGED), up and down the neck, they all move up and down the neck passing throw all five chord shapes. ie;

Here is an Am chord up and down the neck.

Am using all five shapes
..A.......G..........E...........D............C <<< shapes that make Am
-------5------5-------8--------
-1-----1------5------10-------10
-2-----2------5-------9--------9
-2-----2------7-------7-------10
-0-----3------7---------------12
-------5------5----------------

You can see some of these chords are impossible to play all of it, like G.
In more advanced playing we just grab two or three of the notes available.
Advanced players simplify all the time, we look at beginners playing way too many notes in their chords, and the buzz from the hard bars,,,,,

Here's what I might play for that Am, using all the shapes, I'll pick and chose.

Am edited
.A.............G...........E...........D.......... .C << shape
------------------------------------
-1----------------5------10-------13
-2--------2-------5-------9--------9
-2--------2-------7-----------------
----------3-----------------------12
--------------------------8---------

I don't have to use all the notes just because they're there, edit out the difficulty. That's something an advanced player does without thinking, it's automatic.

flavaham
10-21-2013, 10:36 AM
i just learned all the possible major chord inversions and practiced them in each key. before the"CAGED" system was a "thing". then, wait for it.......did it with minor chords.......

Haha, this is what I find strange about the CAGED system. As I said, I never learned it, I did what buddyboy did. I learned chords...

Not knocking CAGED, just didn't learn this way. I do see these shapes occur in my playing though, simply because they are unavoidable really. If I'm between the 4th and 7th fret and need an E chord I'm probably using the C fingering with the root on the A string, 7th fret, or at least part of that shape. Maybe something like this (which I think of as E in first inversion or E/G#):

e|-4-|
B|-5-|
G|-4-|
D|-6-|
A|---|
E|---|

This is just the C shape without the root. But to a CAGED enthusiast, this might look like a blend of the C and D shapes, right? See it? Take that G# on the D string and drop it to an E (2nd fret) and there's the D shape.

I'm not sure how things like this are accounted for in the CAGED system and I've truly never seen anyone explain how to learn minor chords very well with it. The fingerings become a bit awkward in my opinion.

Thanks for the explanation above though. This is pretty much what I understood about the theory at this point. Perhaps I'll find a use for it in my playing at some point. :idea

2HBStrat
10-21-2013, 10:39 AM
I've never heard of this.....it's a new one on me.

H_V_C
10-21-2013, 11:19 AM
Haha, this is what I find strange about the CAGED system. As I said, I never learned it, I did what buddyboy did. I learned chords...

Not knocking CAGED, just didn't learn this way. I do see these shapes occur in my playing though, simply because they are unavoidable really. If I'm between the 4th and 7th fret and need an E chord I'm probably using the C fingering with the root on the A string, 7th fret, or at least part of that shape. Maybe something like this (which I think of as E in first inversion or E/G#):

e|-4-|
B|-5-|
G|-4-|
D|-6-|
A|---|
E|---|

This is just the C shape without the root. But to a CAGED enthusiast, this might look like a blend of the C and D shapes, right? See it? Take that G# on the D string and drop it to an E (2nd fret) and there's the D shape.

I'm not sure how things like this are accounted for in the CAGED system and I've truly never seen anyone explain how to learn minor chords very well with it. The fingerings become a bit awkward in my opinion.

Thanks for the explanation above though. This is pretty much what I understood about the theory at this point. Perhaps I'll find a use for it in my playing at some point. :idea




Right. Everything you just said here is spot on, and I've have the same feelings as well. Over time that "C" shape between the 4th and 7th fret that can be used as an E Major chord looks less and less as a "C" Shape" and more and more like you're playing an a standard major chord voice R-3-5-R-3. The concept of it being a "cowboy chord" just sort of falls away in my experience.

I feel like the CAGED is useful to show beginners how shapes (intervallic structures) will be reproduced and reused in many ways all over the neck, but once the concept is ingrained, it should sort of dissolve in to learning the actual note relationships (and of course move on Minor, or 7th, tensions, and the like)

And yes, several of the minor versions of the CAGED shapes are crazy awkward.

Clifford-D
10-21-2013, 11:27 AM
Haha, this is what I find strange about the CAGED system. As I said, I never learned it, I did what buddyboy did. I learned chords...

I played for 24 years before I heard of CAGED in a Guitar Player mag taught by Joe Pass.


Not knocking CAGED, just didn't learn this way. I do see these shapes occur in my playing though, simply because they are unavoidable really.

They are totally unavoidable unless you strive to not reference it. But try to not think of a pink Telecaster, pretty hard not to reference it.


If I'm between the 4th and 7th fret and need an E chord I'm probably using the C fingering with the root on the A string, 7th fret, or at least part of that shape. Maybe something like this (which I think of as E in first inversion or E/G#):

e|-4-|
B|-5-|
G|-4-|
D|-6-|
A|---|
E|---|

yep


This is just the C shape without the root. But to a CAGED enthusiast, this might look like a blend of the C and D shapes, right? See it? Take that G# on the D string and drop it to an E (2nd fret) and there's the D shape.

No, it's not a blend, think of the CAGED chord fretboard territory, the D shape for an E chord is between the 2nd and 5th frets, that is the D's turf.
The C shape occupies the area between the 4th fret and the 7th fret.
Yes there is an overlap, but what decides it is where your hand is. If you play the 5th fret 2nd string with your pinky, your in the D shape turf,, if you play the same note with your middle finger, you are in the C shape.

The CAGED chord system is no more than marked off territory.

You've been doing it all along and aware it's there, but why not get as much knowledge of cracking the fretboard secrets that are so abundant?

For example, in my op I asked if anyone has reduced the CAGED chords down to just two intervallic shapes? Now I'm talking intervals, and that leads to chords, arps, pents, triads,, the whole thing.

Miles paraphrased Bird and said "learn it and forget it" Miles reduced Birds 1000 word explanation (lol) but very wordy and heady.. Miles always saw the simple line, he was a master at removing the fat, and getting to the heart.
Miles would say "learn the CAGED chords and then forget it", let it be on the back burner, not as the commander but as a trusty advisor. A silent guide that shines the flashlight so you don't trip. An automatic system in place.


I'm not sure how things like this are accounted for in the CAGED system and I've truly never seen anyone explain how to learn minor chords very well with it. The fingerings become a bit awkward in my opinion.

Thanks for the explanation above though. This is pretty much what I understood about the theory at this point. Perhaps I'll find a use for it in my playing at some point. :idea


Thank you for posting too

"It's all about community", SK

Flyin' Brian
10-21-2013, 11:36 AM
I don't remember any more. At some point I saw the chord shapes on the neck and used them as a basis for finding intervals. I learned the 3 notes per string "shapes" and Jimmy Bruno's 5 shapes.

I think that using mental chord "overlays" in my mind led me to understanding what actually were modes.

The downside of self learning is you end up sort of backing into everything. But ultimately it worked for me when it comes to using different chord inversions and especially to be able to transpose a song on the fly.

Bryan T
10-21-2013, 11:50 AM
[FONT=Courier New]e|-4-|
B|-5-|
G|-4-|
D|-6-|
A|---|
E|---|

[FONT=Verdana]This is just the C shape without the root. But to a CAGED enthusiast, this might look like a blend of the C and D shapes, right? See it?

Err ... it looks like the C shape without the root. In my mind, the E on the A string lights up and I see that it is an E chord in the C shape.

I do agree that the C shape and the D shape are similar. For that reason, I usually stress the C A G and E shapes.

H_V_C
10-21-2013, 11:57 AM
Err ... it looks like the C shape without the root. In my mind, the E on the A string lights up and I see that it is an E chord in the C shape.

I do agree that the C shape and the D shape are similar. For that reason, I usually stress the C A G and E shapes.


Although the G shape used as a bar chord can be tricky too. I usually will use just the top 4 strings of that shape, and let another instrument handle the bass.

Bryan T
10-21-2013, 12:03 PM
Although the G shape used as a bar chord can be tricky too. I usually will use just the top 4 strings of that shape, and let another instrument handle the bass.

Just to be clear, I don't focus on teaching these as barre chords. It is more about visualizing the root, being comfortable with the major chord voicing, finding the major scale within each of the shapes, and then bending it to your will.

Need an Eminmaj7? No problem. Identify a possible root note, figure out what chord tones you need, and you're on your way.

Clifford-D
10-21-2013, 12:05 PM
Here are all the D triads in the CAGED system, nothing is missing.

This also reveals all the inversions, all

-----------2----------5----------10
---------3----------7----------10
-------2----------7----------11
-----4----------7----------12
---5----------9----------12
-5---------10----------14

Clifford-D
10-21-2013, 12:13 PM
Although the G shape used as a bar chord can be tricky too. I usually will use just the top 4 strings of that shape, and let another instrument handle the bass. Me too, lol. But I tend to play four top strings in all shapes, shifting positions, much like blues playing shifting. for the single note playing side of CAGED.

But I am not shy of those two bottom strings. In fact those bottom strings are essential to spell the only close voiced D triad in the G shape.

-10 - root
--7 - 3rd
--7 - root
--7 - 5th <
--9 - 3rd <
-10 - root <

Clifford-D
10-21-2013, 12:32 PM
Just to be clear, I don't focus on teaching these as barre chords. It is more about visualizing the root, being comfortable with the major chord voicing, finding the major scale within each of the shapes, and then bending it to your will.

Need an Eminmaj7? No problem. Identify a possible root note, figure out what chord tones you need, and you're on your way.
Exactly! 1+

Every voicing can quickly be created from the basic major triad.
The student will quickly understand not only the chords location, but also it's construction or rearrangement from the basic triad as well.

And that all becomes "learn it and forget it" too. Auto pilot

guitarjazz
10-21-2013, 12:34 PM
The system, the organization, is simply the way the guitar is tuned in standard tuning. CAGED is just a manifestation of that.
Saturday night I had two gigs. The second gig, a late one at a jazz club consisted of all original music. I'm glad that my fretboard knowledge, which includes CAGED, was simply lurking in the background, because in the heat of the moment there was only time to concentrate on the notes, read the rhythms, making it sound musical,create an nice arc contour to solos, listen to the other soloist while comping. I'm not sure I thought about CAGED once.

Bryan T
10-21-2013, 12:44 PM
The system, the organization, is simply the way the guitar is tuned in standard tuning. CAGED is just a manifestation of that.

Exactly. It is simply a useful approach for making sense of that.

I remember, as a young guitarist, being confused by the three major triad voicings on the top three strings. Being able to find the correct one quickly was hard. Eventually, I had a :idea moment and learned to keep track of where the root note was. Applied to all six strings, this is CAGED.

Hotspur
10-21-2013, 12:47 PM
I never thought of CAGED as a tool to learn chord locations. I thought of it as a way of getting the major and minor scale into your head, and of helping you find them at any time at any location on the fretboard.

I have a background in CAGED, from using The Guitar Fretboard Workbook. But I've found that I've gravitated away from it as I've gained more experience. It was a tool in helping me internalize the sound of the major and minor scales, and as I've done a better job of that I need the scale shapes less and less.

There are some common complaints about the CAGED system, which I don't agree with (in fact, I think many of them come from ignorance of the system) but it's not the be-all, end-all either. If you want a way to help you find your way around the fretboard it's a great starting point.

Staggerlee
10-21-2013, 01:11 PM
I never understood CAGED until the Chord Soloing Book by Barrett Tagliarino. In it, he actually focuses on the locations of the root notes. I.e. in C:
CAGED SHAPES IN C MAJOR
e----|-----|-----|-----|-----|-----|-----|--R--|-----|-----|-----|--e--|
a-R--|-----|-----|-----|--e--|-----|-----|--g--|-----|-----|-----|-----|--R
d----|-----|-----|-----|--R--|-----|-----|-----|--e--|-----|-----|--g--|
g----|--e--|-----|-----|--g--|-----|-----|-----|-----|--R--|-----|-----|
b----|-----|--R--|-----|-----|-----|--e--|-----|-----|--g--|-----|-----|
e----|-----|--g--|-----|-----|-----|-----|--R--|-----|-----|-----|--e--|
1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12

If you look at each if these, you will see the CAGED shapes, but only applied to the roots. This way you can find each C note immediately if you know the shapes. The same can be applied to any other note by means of transposition.

ROOT ONLY
e----|-----|-----|-----|-----|-----|-----|--R--|-----|-----|-----|-----|
a-R--|-----|-----|-----|-----|-----|-----|-----|-----|-----|-----|-----|--R
d----|-----|-----|-----|--R--|-----|-----|-----|-----|-----|-----|-----|
g----|-----|-----|-----|-----|-----|-----|-----|-----|--R--|-----|-----|
b----|-----|--R--|-----|-----|-----|-----|-----|-----|-----|-----|-----|
e----|-----|-----|-----|-----|-----|-----|--R--|-----|-----|-----|-----|
1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12

MGT
10-21-2013, 02:23 PM
My first real introduction scales (on the guitar) was via the Heavy Guitar Bible by Richard Daniels. It taught the minor & major pentatonic scales as well as the relationship between the two. I basically memorized the shapes up & down the neck....gradually learned the major & minor scale up the neck after. As I learned more chords (triads, etc), I gradually superimposed them onto the scale patterns in my head.

Heard about CAGED much later but by that time, I already knew the neck pretty well.

Clifford-D
10-21-2013, 02:59 PM
Hey, Staggerlee, use the font "Courier News" and the tab will all line up. The numbers at the bottom need some sort of spacer too, I use periods.
Also with courier news use bold or else it won't stand out. =)
I also reduced the size to 1.

I never understood CAGED until the Chord Soloing Book by Barrett Tagliarino. In it, he actually focuses on the locations of the root notes. I.e. in C:
CAGED SHAPES IN C MAJOR
e----|-----|-----|-----|-----|-----|-----|--R--|-----|-----|-----|--e--|
a-R--|-----|-----|-----|--e--|-----|-----|--g--|-----|-----|-----|-----|--R
d----|-----|-----|-----|--R--|-----|-----|-----|--e--|-----|-----|--g--|
g----|--e--|-----|-----|--g--|-----|-----|-----|-----|--R--|-----|-----|
b----|-----|--R--|-----|-----|-----|--e--|-----|-----|--g--|-----|-----|
e----|-----|--g--|-----|-----|-----|-----|--R--|-----|-----|-----|--e--|
.....1..... 2.... 3..... 4.... 5..... 6.... 7.... 8..... 9... 10.... 11... 12

If you look at each if these, you will see the CAGED shapes, but only applied to the roots. This way you can find each C note immediately if you know the shapes. The same can be applied to any other note by means of transposition.

ROOT ONLY
e----|-----|-----|-----|-----|-----|-----|--R--|-----|-----|-----|-----|
a-R--|-----|-----|-----|-----|-----|-----|-----|-----|-----|-----|-----|--R
d----|-----|-----|-----|--R--|-----|-----|-----|-----|-----|-----|-----|
g----|-----|-----|-----|-----|-----|-----|-----|-----|--R--|-----|-----|
b----|-----|--R--|-----|-----|-----|-----|-----|-----|-----|-----|-----|
e----|-----|-----|-----|-----|-----|-----|--R--|-----|-----|-----|-----|
.....1..... 2.... 3..... 4.... 5..... 6.... 7..... 8.... 9.... 10... 11... 12

lukemosseguitar
10-21-2013, 03:24 PM
For me, really learning CAGED completely changed the guitar and my playing.

I used exercises where you jump through each shape C, A, G, E, D with any given chord quality to learn it. Once it sunk in it was like the guitar suddenly got A LOT smaller.

I think it's great.

H_V_C
10-21-2013, 04:04 PM
Just to be clear, I don't focus on teaching these as barre chords. It is more about visualizing the root, being comfortable with the major chord voicing, finding the major scale within each of the shapes, and then bending it to your will.

Need an Eminmaj7? No problem. Identify a possible root note, figure out what chord tones you need, and you're on your way.

Sure, same for me. It was just a thought involving their use with barre chords.

Mit
10-21-2013, 04:11 PM
a small correction
In fact those bottom strings are essential to spell the only close voiced D triad in the G shape.

-10 - root
--7 - 3rd
--7 - root
--7 - 5th <
--9 - 3rd <
-10 - root <

Clifford-D
10-21-2013, 05:34 PM
a small correction
Thanks, I fixed it =)

I appreciate it.

straightblues
10-21-2013, 06:41 PM
I have played for 25 years and gig several days a week.. I have always been a pentatonic player and thought of solos in terms of pentatonic scales and blues boxes. About a year ago I got introduced to the CAGED system. My playing has really progressed because of it. I now use chords as the bases of my soloing. It helps me to quickly find notes all over the fretboard. After 25 years of playing, I was able to really change my playing a lot.

sharpshooter
10-21-2013, 07:56 PM
I don't think that I ever had much to do with the CAGED system, at a concious level.
While I know the names of the notes of the various strings/on the various frets, I've put most of that aside.
Now I use the numbers of the scale degree, a d7th is still a d7th, no matter what key you'r in.
Sure makes transposing easier, no more alphabet soup to think about.

that_brianm_guy
10-21-2013, 08:15 PM
For me, in made sense in terms of the 5 pentatonic shapes (which I'd learned before I ran across CAGED) - 5 scale inversions, 5 chord inversions.

guitarjazz
10-21-2013, 08:40 PM
For me, in made sense in terms of the 5 pentatonic shapes (which I'd learned before I ran across CAGED) - 5 scale inversions, 5 chord inversions.
The correlation is that the open strings (five notes EADGB) make a pentatonic scale if you reduce the notes down to the same octave.

JonR
10-22-2013, 03:29 AM
Like many of what I guess are the older folk here, I learned the neck before I ever heard of the CAGED system - but did it via something very similar. As a few have pointed out, it's simply the way the fretboard looks in EADGBE, given that one learns those 5 open shapes at the beginning.

The problem with it - if there is a problem - is the same as that of scale patterns, which is if and when it becomes a way of avoiding learning the notes and interval relationships. IOW, if it's taught as a fixed "system" or "method", a "magic bullet", implying it's all you need to know.

After all, it's obvious that chords and scales make visual patterns on the neck; it's quite natural to want to exploit those patterns to help us learn how to navigate the neck (it would be crazy to try and ignore or forget them). But the patterns (except those up one string) are arbitrary; they have no musical meaning or unique application. A "C" shape may give us root-3rd-5th of a major chord in one particular layout, but of course it can be any chord, and - in any one position - could belong to a few different scales or modes.

Personally, when playing, I'm always thinking of notes in relation to those shapes. I don't think of note names or letters, I think (subconsciously) something like "this note here is a 4th in relation to this "E" shape", or "this note is a #9/b3 on this "C" shape", or whatever. Of course I know the key to begin with, and all the shapes for each chord in the sequence will appear on my inner map of the fretboard in their respective positions. Then it's a matter of how every other note relates to those chord tones. So I think chord shapes not scale patterns. (Easier to map a series of chord shapes on to the fretboard than a series of scale patterns.) Scale patterns are superfluous because the CAGED shapes in any one position outline the whole scale anyway, and in a proper functional way. (And of course I know the relationship of the various chromatics too.)

flavaham
10-22-2013, 03:45 AM
As a non-CAGED player I can see how this can be a useful thing to learn. And, I think I have actually taught a variation of it to a few people.

An earlier post shows a diagram of the entire guitar neck focusing on where all the roots are. This is where I think CAGED can be extremely useful. If you know the shapes and where the root falls in each one, you can find chord tones anywhere on the neck. From there you can find other notes, including diatonic scale degrees and "outside" notes quite easily.

I have also noticed that I think in terms of combinations of some of these shapes which help me break out of box playing. This came without actually studying CAGED though. For example: A c major chord combining the A and G shapes can give you a good area to work in.


E|-3--------8-|
B|----5-------|
G|----5-------|
D|----5-------|
A|-3-----7----|
e|-3--------8-|


Yes, it's still a small area but you get the idea. It works between any two adjacent shapes which makes it very easy to navigate the fretboard quickly and easily.

Again, I've never studied the theory of CAGED. This just seems like a logical way to see the neck. The way it appeared to me was through learning the notes on the fretboard, and from there learning intervals. Know where to find every possible root to a chord and from there I can always find the chord tones falling under my fingers based on that knowledge. I don't know that learning the CAGED system would have helped or sped up that process and there's really no way to know now that I know what I know...

JonR
10-22-2013, 03:58 AM
Again, I've never studied the theory of CAGED. This just seems like a logical way to see the neck.Exactly. It isn't a "theory" at all. It's a labelling system for what becomes obvious to anyone once they start exploring the neck above 5th fret - and using their eyes as well as their ears. (I learned much the same way you did.)

Clifford-D
10-22-2013, 07:29 AM
There are two fundamental chord voicings in the CAGED system.

I'm using the C chord for this example,,

Voicing #1
R
5th
3rd
R
.C...............G............Upper E << shape
-----------------------8
-1---------------------8
-0----------5----------9
-2----------5---------10
-3----------7-----------
------------8-----------


Voicing #2
3rd
R
5th
R
.A.............Lower E..........D << shape
-----------------------12
-5---------------------13
-5-----------9---------12
-5----------10---------10
-3----------10-----------
-------------8-----------

As you can see there are these two common voicings that make up the CAGED chords. minus the two upper notes of the G shape, those two upper
notes do not conform to this voicing observation. the rest do conform.

these two voicings combine to make a "fillet" sort of arrangement

C..................A << shape
---------------
-1-----------5
---0-------5--
-----2---5----
-------3------
--------------

G and Lower E "fillet"
Upper E and D "fillet"

So what advantages are there in understanding this "two voicing" observation about the CAGED system??

Guinness Lad
10-22-2013, 08:16 AM
I knew what this was before it was given a name. I learned major scales based upon what appeared to be extensions of basic chords. Has it made a big difference in learning or some kind of revelation?

Hardly, it didn't matter much at all, I just learned the notes much like you had to when learning the multiplication tables. I'm not a system guy, just study the damn guitar, I mean how hard is it to remember A to G on a given string?

AmmoniteII
10-22-2013, 09:30 AM
I was taught caged in depth at music collage its an often under taught an over looked system it is incredibly poweful yet easy to understand. Ifact i have slowly been working on a book on it. Im on my phone atm but i will post what i can later.

It is important to ubderstand that this is only one approach. In my op the one that should be taught first. But learning 3nps and hoizontal systems etc should also be practiced and explored. The more you do the better you will understand the instrument.

GuyBoden
10-22-2013, 09:41 AM
Exactly. It isn't a "theory" at all. It's a labelling system for what becomes obvious to anyone once they start exploring the neck above 5th fret - and using their eyes as well as their ears. (I learned much the same way you did.)

I agree with JonR, it's just one of many ways to map the guitar's fretboard. Apparently, Allan Holdsworth states that he can see all the notes of a scale on the fretboard at once, "They light up".

Guy :aok

Tomo
10-22-2013, 10:02 PM
I love triads & simple concept.

I am trying not be "CAGED" in.

Tomo

Bryan T
10-22-2013, 10:20 PM
I am trying not be "CAGED" in.

Avoiding getting stuck in position playing is a good thing from my perspective.

that_brianm_guy
10-22-2013, 10:34 PM
I love triads & simple concept.

I am trying not be "CAGED" in.

Tomo


I found that the CAGED shapes a help in learning the mapping of the triads and the inversions.

Once I realized where the major triads were, it was easy to make them minor, add 7ths, etc...

Sometimes, it takes a while for "simple" to sink in :)

Sigmund Floyd
10-22-2013, 11:24 PM
I've had 2 great teachers over the last 4 years and neither of them recommend using the caged system. I took a look at it and didn't care for it either.

guitarjazz
10-23-2013, 03:20 AM
If you play in standard tuning you are using it, even if you don't call it that. It's not a system it's just a simle menomic.

JonR
10-23-2013, 03:59 AM
If you play in standard tuning you are using it, even if you don't call it that. It's not a system it's just a simle menomic.Yeah, that's a tough scale, that mnemonic minor...
Keep forgetting all its modes....
:D

Clifford-D
10-23-2013, 07:31 AM
I love triads & simple concept.

I am trying not be "CAGED" in.

Tomo

Tomo, the CAGED chords are nothing but triads??

How is the CAGED chords not simple?

Why would you reject this CAGED triad concept ?

And once again, Miles said "learn it and forget it". Exactly what we should do with the CAGED chords.


CAGED chords simply show the location of triads on a 12 fret spread of the fretboard and triad type (major, minor etc.) Nothing more

Understanding how these triads work in music is exactly the same with or without thinking CAGED. Triads are triads. The CAGED chords don't tell you anything about what a triad is, other than the triads location.

The study of triads is more a study of harmony, CAGED is just a directory of sorts, a locater, a directional finder. It is not harmony theory.

Clifford-D
10-23-2013, 07:43 AM
If you play in standard tuning you are using it, even if you don't call it that. It's not a system it's just a simle menomic.
The CAGED chords are most definitely a system GJ.

wiki;
sys·tem
ˈsistəm/
noun
1.
a set of connected things or parts forming a complex whole, in particular.

2.
www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/ (http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/)system‎
a group of related parts that move or work together.


It is also mnemonic =)

guitarjazz
10-23-2013, 09:22 AM
It's always nice to teach someone who has had a little piano background because chances are they understand triads.
The system is the guitar's tuning. Any 'shapes' are just a result of the system of tuning.

Tomo
10-23-2013, 12:25 PM
I found that the CAGED shapes a help in learning the mapping of the triads and the inversions.

Once I realized where the major triads were, it was easy to make them minor, add 7ths, etc...

Sometimes, it takes a while for "simple" to sink in :)

It's all good to get slightly hints from those big forms. but main goal is for "Long Run" so good later. I love pure hard work! I kept saying to all my students. ...not to memorize things.

Tomo

Tomo
10-23-2013, 12:27 PM
Tomo, the CAGED chords are nothing but triads??

How is the CAGED chords not simple?

Why would you reject this CAGED triad concept ?

And once again, Miles said "learn it and forget it". Exactly what we should do with the CAGED chords.


CAGED chords simply show the location of triads on a 12 fret spread of the fretboard and triad type (major, minor etc.) Nothing more

Understanding how these triads work in music is exactly the same with or without thinking CAGED. Triads are triads. The CAGED chords don't tell you anything about what a triad is, other than the triads location.

The study of triads is more a study of harmony, CAGED is just a directory of sorts, a locater, a directional finder. It is not harmony theory.

Thanks for replying. I didnot say that I reject. I don't use the system. I just borrow a part of this idea. That's why each one's private lesson is very unique. Otherwise, if you learn shapes & systems...all set? I have my own way of teaching and it's hard to explain all. I don't like to rely on things or memorize stuff etc.

Tomo

ChampReverb
10-25-2013, 12:00 AM
When I was in my teens back in the early '70's I taught myself how to play guitar with a Beatles song book and some Allman Brothers records.

I didn't know where to out my fingers so I just figured out some patterns by ear and noticed how they interlocked up and down the neck and how they outlined the cowboy chords.

Someone else many years later decided to call those patterns the CAGED system.

-bEn r.

GovernorSilver
10-25-2013, 11:43 AM
I was exposed to CAGED via the Fretboard Logic books. It was helpful to me as a raw beginner.

Shortly after, I started taking jazz guitar lessons. My mind was blown when the teacher told me I didn't have to strum all 6 strings all the time to play chords - play a chord with as little as 3 strings was quite a concept to me. He didn't teach me this stuff through the lens of CAGED. For example, when he taught me his solo guitar arrangement of All The Things You Are, he didn't say if the recommended Bmin7 grip was a C, A, G, E or D shape. As a result, I gradually "forgot" about CAGED.

balde
10-25-2013, 12:08 PM
CAGED system is much more than chords. Every piece of information can be related to this. Scales, arpeggios, chords, triads... Improvising over chord changes, is made much easier. Finding different voicings too (of course not limited to those).
I think that besides the map it provides, itīs very helpful when one learns the sound of the different boxes. That way when you here a note you want to play, you can find it wherever you happen to be on the fretboard. You might never know where the melody, the direction will lead you when improvising. I think CAGED, makes lines have more flow.
However i agree with Tomo, on not getting CAGED. Thatīs when it gets very useful to practice a lot playing horizontally too.

Tomo
10-25-2013, 12:58 PM
I was exposed to CAGED via the Fretboard Logic books. It was helpful to me as a raw beginner.

Shortly after, I started taking jazz guitar lessons. My mind was blown when the teacher told me I didn't have to strum all 6 strings all the time to play chords - play a chord with as little as 3 strings was quite a concept to me. He didn't teach me this stuff through the lens of CAGED. For example, when he taught me his solo guitar arrangement of All The Things You Are, he didn't say if the recommended Bmin7 grip was a C, A, G, E or D shape. As a result, I gradually "forgot" about CAGED.

Great to hear that you have learned about "concept" and you did learn them and filtered through your efforts to bring that to apply in music! Congrats!!!

You didnot rely on some system/patten/shapes and just memorized them. That's power of studying private lessons. Now you know how important to know Major scale so that you can harmonize in 3rd or 6th...then you can apply that to other sounds, like minor 7th or Dom 7th...

I was talking with Matt Schofield last night about how important to know Major scale & triads etc. but he doesnot know what to call things etc. I am gonna do blues guitar camp with Matt ...around March 2014 in England. I look forward to it.

Tomo

GovernorSilver
10-25-2013, 01:28 PM
Great to hear that you have learned about "concept" and you did learn them and filtered through your efforts to bring that to apply in music! Congrats!!!

You didnot rely on some system/patten/shapes and just memorized them. That's power of studying private lessons. Now you know how important to know Major scale so that you can harmonize in 3rd or 6th...then you can apply that to other sounds, like minor 7th or Dom 7th...


Tomo-san, you are too kind.

I was very lucky to have a weekly private lesson AND a group class with this jazz guitar teacher at a public university - at no additional cost beyond my normal tuition. I just didn't realize how lucky I was at the time. I really should have signed up for continued private lessons with him after the university cut his class.

I was just a beginner level student with him, but I gathered from my classmates and personal observation from group class that he preferred that we learn say, the Bbmin7 chord by practicing it in inversions up and down the neck, and also the diatonic harmony up and down the neck (eg. in C major, play Cmaj7, then go up the neck and play Dmin7, then Emin7 up the neck, etc.).

I'm working with a Bill Cunliffe book on the piano now and his approach is to just learn the 3-7 voicing of each chord. Its funny how this is what Fareed Haque teaches in his Jazz Comping Survival guide course (learn 3-7s and you'll survive). Anyway, Cunliffe combines this with a Suzuki-like approach of learning by listening to the comping part and the melody part first, before looking at the sheet music.


I was talking with Matt Schofield last night about how important to know Major scale & triads etc. but he doesnot know what to call things etc. I am gonna do blues guitar camp with Matt ...around March 2014 in England. I look forward to it.

I'd be interested in a report on this.

gennation
10-25-2013, 03:21 PM
I had figured it out on my own. Then a couple years later read a Joe Pass article were he explained it as a concept or method. Then many many years later a friend of mine had the Fretboard Logic books I'd seen advertised for years and that had been teaching it as a method all along too.

Clifford-D
10-25-2013, 04:14 PM
Maybe we should call it "The Triads That Took Over The Fretboard" ?

Clifford-D
10-25-2013, 04:45 PM
The CAGED chords are NOT music.

Never did I say it was something you can substitute for real music.

Anyone that thinks that is wrong.

The CAGED chords can be thought of as similar to letters on a keyboard, many people don't need them but it helps in quick orientation before typing.
Why do we have numbers on our speedometer? Can't we just judge the speed?
Do the numbers confuse my driving or am I capable of driving and glancing at the numbers.

I just don't see how understanding CAGED equates to something that isn't organic to the nature of guitar, perhaps harmful to the student process.

I don't understand the need for a distinction from any other guitar fretboard learning?

I never said "this is all you need to know" or "stop your education with this handy tool".

It is not a mind dulling tool, it does not make you dumber, it isn't a distraction from learning how music works.

I guess I believe people are not that confused in life, I believe that a person can read a map to get across town, then not need the map, they have it in their head directing them. That is the nature of the CAGED chords imo.

matte
10-25-2013, 04:51 PM
right on.

i have yet to see the musical value of caged.I love triads & simple concept.

I am trying not be "CAGED" in.

Tomo

johann
10-25-2013, 04:57 PM
right on.

i have yet to see the musical value of caged.


Mmm... it is a tool for making music.

Like the Major scale... if a guitarist just plays it up and down, it is not music, just an excercise.

Bryan T
10-25-2013, 04:59 PM
right on.

i have yet to see the musical value of caged.

It is just a way of describing the grid. Some find it useful.

KiwiJoe
10-25-2013, 05:59 PM
It's not anything that I find useful, but if other people do, who am I to say they don't?

I prefer to just spend time reinforcing my knowledge of where all the notes are on the fretboard, the intervals between them, and how to apply them as they relate to the chords I'm playing over and how the same notes function in different chords to help me get from where I'm at to where I ultimately want to go.

Clifford-D
10-25-2013, 06:03 PM
right on.

i have yet to see the musical value of caged.
You're 100% correct, it is not musical at all, other than you can play triads in five spots. But that's not musical.

But,, those little fretboard position dots at the 9th fret, put that baby on the 10th fret and tell me it wouldn't slightly mess with you? And I'm not talking about no markers on the neck, I'm talking about putting the marker on the 10th fret??? It could throw you off if you use you eyes for a bad moment.

little subtle ques like fretboard markers or CAGED are not bad for location detection,,, but it IS NOT MUSICAL, just like a guitar is not musical or an amp is not musical, or a doorknob,,,

The only place to find musical is in the mind that hears, sings, creates,,,
Us

Just like you Matte, you are an Us.

- For me, sonically, I get thrown off if I have to tune everything down 1/2 step. I'm just not used to doing it and things sound off to me big time.
I need E to sound like E not Eb, I hear that difference. My sonic CAGED ears says it's off. lol. I need the sonic marker.


Let's hope that people don't get stuck in castles made of sand.

matte
10-25-2013, 06:10 PM
it's a tool for understanding the 6 string standard tuning guitar fingerboard.

a major scale is a musical building block that transcends any one particular musical instrument.

itMmm... it is a tool for making music.

Like the Major scale... if a guitarist just plays it up and down, it is not music, just an excercise.

H_V_C
10-25-2013, 06:14 PM
it's a tool for understanding the 6 string standard tuning guitar fingerboard.

a major scale is a musical building block that transcends any one particular musical instrument.

it


You're right, but I think he was making a comparison with a major scale fingering for standard tuning, in which the analogy is pretty applicable.

A fingering for any musical device doesn't make music.

My toyota isn't a road trip. I have to get in the damn thing and drive to get where I'm going.


BTW, I agree with what a lot of folks here have already said. CAGED is just the name someone gave to the idea that intervalic structures can be reproduced using "shapes" all over the fretboard.
I've seen cats try and create an entire guitar method based around this idea, and I find it to be something of a novelty. I have seen it work quite well at a beginning level for students learning barre chords though.

balde
10-25-2013, 06:19 PM
right on.

i have yet to see the musical value of caged.

Lots.

When someone is learning to improvise it helps a lot in a musical way.
Itīs always the case in beginners, that they learn some pentatonic shapes or say, a major or minor scale. First thing they do is noodle around the shapes. When they first do so, most of them, donīt have much melody, rest or phrasing knowledge. Generally they donīt pick notes in a harmonic sense. They donīt hear or understand the value of chord tones, or of points of resolution. They just play randomly wherever they fingers go. To me one of the things a beginner must learn is to at least learn to achieve consonance, and a strong melodic sense. Teaching how to lead their lines or phrases to chord tones, tonics, teach them the concept of resolution makes that come through more naturally. Not only they can grasp it on a visual way, but they can hear it to. By going in a conscious way to this targets, they can make music and something that will sound good. This makes the mind get more in contact with whatīs going on. When youīre hearing something solid, itīs much easier for ideas to develop. When random notes with no integrity are played against some chord or chord progression, itīs much harder to come up with something.
The utility of the CAGED system here, is that you can present all this to someone in a very complete way. They can access it and try it all over the fretboard. If they are working on licks, phrases or even song heads, they can try it on different positions.
The value of triads is something we canīt forget. playing around them, learning how to resolve on their tones, creating melodies, etc. The Caged system organizes them very well all around the fretboard.
When you teach someone how to look and map them with the system, you must encourage them to look and make music with the shape. Try things for themselves, work the position. Find something that they like and repeat it on every position.
The musical value of the system to me, is more related to the way itīs taught, acknowledged, and what you do with it.
The shapes on a piece of paper mean nothing. Trying to make some music with the shapes, learn how they sound, explore the endless possibilities they can provide, itīs the music behind the system, which in itself is nothing else than just a way to organize the information.

matte
10-25-2013, 06:24 PM
i believe that the whole idiomatic/caged/tab guitar culture is doing little to make musicians out of guitarists.
Lots.

When someone is learning to improvise it helps a lot in a musical way.
Itīs always the case in beginners, that they learn some pentatonic shapes or say, a major or minor scale. First thing they do is noodle around the shapes. When they first do so, most of them, donīt have much melody, rest or phrasing knowledge. Generally they donīt pick notes in a harmonic sense. They donīt hear or understand the value of chord tones, or of points of resolution. They just play randomly wherever they fingers go. To me one of the things a beginner must learn is to at least learn to achieve consonance, and a strong melodic sense. Teaching how to lead their lines or phrases to chord tones, tonics, teach them the concept of resolution makes that come through more naturally. Not only they can grasp it on a visual way, but they can hear it to. By going in a conscious way to this targets, they can make music and something that will sound good. This makes the mind get more in contact with whatīs going on. When youīre hearing something solid, itīs much easier for ideas to develop. When random notes with no integrity are played against some chord or chord progression, itīs much harder to come up with something.
The utility of the CAGED system here, is that you can present all this to someone in a very complete way. They can access it and try it all over the fretboard. If they are working on licks, phrases or even song heads, they can try it on different positions.
The value of triads is something we canīt forget. playing around them, learning how to resolve on their tones, creating melodies, etc. The Caged system organizes them very well all around the fretboard.
When you teach someone how to look and map them with the system, you must encourage them to look and make music with the shape. Try things for themselves, work the position. Find something that they like and repeat it on every position.
The musical value of the system to me, is more related to the way itīs taught, acknowledged, and what you do with it.
The shapes on a piece of paper mean nothing. Trying to make some music with the shapes, learn how they sound, explore the endless possibilities they can provide, itīs the music behind the system, which in itself is nothing else than just a way to organize the information.

balde
10-25-2013, 06:29 PM
Well, they way i see it, itīs just one more tool that helps develop as a strong guitar player. Thereīs much more to it that the CAGED system. Weīre not even talking about, rhythm, concepts, dynamics and lots of other elements. Iīm just saying it is a useful tool, nothing else than that for learning SOME important things. Exploring the guitar is a much more complete art. But that, to me, doesnīt mean it makes the system nonsense or unmusical or something that detracts teh spirit of music. Itīs just a tool. The art comes from within and itīs made of lots of important elements

Clifford-D
10-25-2013, 06:40 PM
it's a tool for understanding the 6 string standard tuning guitar fingerboard.

a major scale is a musical building block that transcends any one particular musical instrument.

it
but we are not playing any one instrument, we are playing a geetar with whammy's and that's the thing we are discussing,

Dude, if you ask a newb to move up a string two frets to play a whole step then you just showed them a pattern and are just as guilty as if you used the CAGED. "two 1/2 steps = a whole step" was a concept that we had to make real and physical on the fretboard. " W W 1/2 W W W 1/2 is a newb pattern, up and down one string, but it is also not very musical, it represents chosen gradient pitches but it's not that musical. "Do a Deer" is melodic, so with a bit of imagination musical comes easy..

So, where and when exactly do we separate pattern/fretboard and musical/fretboard??? Where is the cutoff point, the "caution, you are entering CAGED chord terrain, beware of Triads making memorable shapes crossing the road" maybe??

Clifford-D
10-25-2013, 07:17 PM
Wes just played, even reading wasn't much of a tool for him.
But he figured it out, yes he did

Clifford-D
10-25-2013, 08:48 PM
i believe that the whole idiomatic/caged/tab guitar culture is doing little to make musicians out of guitarists.

So if I don't have notation software or maybe if I'm a bit lazy,
computer tab like I write to illustrate a point is still not ok?

So I guess a video showing me playing to make the point is ok though? That's
so much work for something I can do with one inch of tab??? If we were in person, notation is what I would prefer. But on the computer, with no way to write notation, a little tab isn't a crime.

We are online and I'm not very good on computers,
I've never played video games, I always prefered music over those time consuming activities, music has always dominated my mind's backdrop.
Math test are hard for me because the music in my head just gets louder and competed with the test, and it usually won.
perhaps that's OCD, I don't know but math is keeping me from getting my degree.
I don't know, all I know is I'm not the only one,,,
What the hell were we talking about?????


(don't take any of this seriously, in some other universe in the great multi universe we totally agree, and I could walk through walls)

JonR
10-26-2013, 04:37 AM
i believe that the whole idiomatic/caged/tab guitar culture is doing little to make musicians out of guitarists.
Yes, but so what?

Guitarists who want to become musicians won't let tab or CAGED stop them; they might use them, but won't feel limited by them. They can offer useful assistance on the journey (at the beginning anyway).
That sort of person is probably not going to take any internet advice too seriously anyway. They know where they're going.

As for guitarists who are happy just being guitarists (not interested in explanding their knowledge or musicianship), why is that a problem? As long as I don't have to listen to them, they can do as they wish.

Seraphine
10-26-2013, 10:49 AM
Isn't just all ( whichever approaches ), basically part and parcels of learning and especially of knowing, every note on the board and where they are? This can and should also include the ability to execute and play across the entire spectrum of the gtr.

I remember a fellow gtr player in a band listening to me jamming on a piano between sets.... "You play keys." he stated.... "No." I said... "I don't."

I was playing nice stuffs and he repeated it looking right in my eyes... "You play keys."

I said flat out...."I play gtr".

I use Basses, keys and various gtr's.. classical.. box.. electrics... many different kinds of drums... I have them all and many other even odd instruments.. flutes and old recorders of various sizes from Holland etc.. on and on. Musically I understand "music" yet I Play GTR.... I'm not a drummer... Not a key player or flute... I am not a bass player and what I can hear and compose and know musically is one thing... for instance; I can hear fantabulous Bass lines etc... but I am NOT a Bass player, even though I can use it in composing.

I play gtr. I wouldn't play much else in a band as I would play with a Bass Player... With very good drummers... with a keys player who can play keys just like ringin' a bell.

I can't ring a bell on those instruments - I can with a gtr though. I play gtr.

Whichever road one takes to get to Scotland or Dollywood ( or The Emerald City ).. I don't mind, as long as they can ring a bell when they get there!

Clifford-D
10-26-2013, 11:22 AM
Isn't just all ( whichever approaches ), basically part and parcels of learning and especially of knowing, every note on the board and where they are? This can and should also include the ability to execute and play across the entire spectrum of the gtr.

I remember a fellow gtr player in a band listening to me jamming on a piano between sets.... "You play keys." he stated.... "No." I said... "I don't."

I was playing nice stuffs and he repeated it looking right in my eyes... "You play keys."

I said flat out...."I play gtr".

I use Basses, keys and various gtr's.. classical.. box.. electrics... many different kinds of drums... I have them all and many other even odd instruments.. flutes and old recorders of various sizes from Holland etc.. on and on. Musically I understand "music" yet I Play GTR.... I'm not a drummer... Not a key player or flute... I am not a bass player and what I can hear and compose and know musically is one thing... for instance; I can hear fantabulous Bass lines etc... but I am NOT a Bass player, even though I can use it in composing.

I play gtr. I wouldn't play much else in a band as I would play with a Bass Player... With very good drummers... with a keys player who can play keys just like ringin' a bell.

I can't ring a bell on those instruments - I can with a gtr though. I play gtr.

Whichever road one takes to get to Scotland or Dollywood ( or The Emerald City ).. I don't mind, as long as they can ring a bell when they get there!
yes. I like this.