65 Deluxe Reverb reissue compared to old original? [Archive]

ericb

03-19-2006, 09:57 AM

I'd have to disagree with many of the posts saying the RI Sucks.. It doesn't at all. I have so many amps that I've learned a lot about them , and the guys who are mentioning speakers and tubes and components are on the right track for sure. I had the Blonde RI s/n 375 I think? I've sold it but it's 1 of the only amps ever I sold that I loved. I found perfect speakers for it, and found perfect tube combos. For you guys who never experiment much with tubes, this stuff really won't matter to you but I do with EVERY single amp I own . I always find out of my stash what I think are the best tubes for something and best combination..

OK, here's where it gets tricky.. People ask how this amp compareds to the real 1965 or real 1967,etc... Before I bought this I took a roadtrip from VT to NH to Boston 1 week and Vt to Albany , NY the next week. I tried about 12 different BF Deluxe Reverbs and SF DR's. (This is when the 65 BF was still selling for 750!!!! NO MORE!) ... EVERY SINGLE AMP I TRIED SOUNDED VERY VERY DIFFERENT... I tried a few GODLY ones, and about 10 that were NO better at all than the Blonde RI I ended up with . I got a mint one driving outside NYC for 375.00. I fixed it up and used it for about 5-6 years regularly . It had 2 problems.... at first the SOVTEK 6v6's blew... Turns out they couldn't handle plate voltage the DR RI had.. ALso it was biased at about 12ma of current or so ... Ya wonder why it might not sound its best?? Well used RCA's are cheap and way better sounding so that's the route I went. ALSO Visseaux 6v6's sounded great in it. Meanwhile , the speaker wasn't great, and there are MANY MANY great alternatives these days..... But then the 2nd problem I had was the trem optoisolater went.. Turned out I heard they were very simple parts and did have qc problems, and got that repaired (UNDER WARRANTY for free) and then never had a problem . ANyway, in good shape, yes they can sound great and mine beat 10 originals I tried.. The other 2 originals were WAY BETTER sounding than mine.. BOTH sold before I could buy them. 1 was 700.00 for a 1966 or so , and 1 was 650 for a 1968 SF. Now the 1966 is probably over 2000.00! Listen yourself and use YOUR OWN EARS!!! Good luck

p.s. a few years back I sat in at a friend's 'hippy' wedding outdoors at a log cabin with rolling brook ,etc here in VT's mountains and played the guy's early SF Deluxe Reverb. IT broke up sooner than mine but had absolutely AWESOME clean and on-the-verge-of-od tones but the bass was flabby as hell and there was static, etc.. Mine was very different but had NO noise at all , and solid bass. There'll all very different!

ERIC

majorledhead

03-19-2006, 10:31 AM

sold mine but the following mods had great results:
*remove bright cap on channel 2
*change phase inverter coupling cap to .02uf orange cap
*switch in neg. feedback circuit
* jj tubes
*weber alnico speaker
*rebias a little hot
it was warmer and screamin' after the fact, but was always a good sounding amp to begin with.

brad347

03-19-2006, 10:41 AM

the bright cap thing does make a difference.

Some people here bring up good points, some BFDRs are spectacular while some are only alright... and i've played a few that didn't do much for me.

HOWEVER, these things can always be addressed... the components in the original were better plain and simple... transformers etc. If there's something about an amp's tone that you don't like it can usually be traced to some failed or badly drifted component OR tube.

Most originals up and in GOOD RUNNING condition will sound better than the RI. However, sometimes the failed/drifting/old components add something magical to the sound, so I would only ever replace things that were failing if the amp sounded good.

bob-i

03-19-2006, 10:54 AM

I actually had a SF that sucked, couldn't sell it fast enough. Bought it brand new, 72 I think. Tried tubes and speakers but it never sounded decent.

On the othjer hand, the RI's are not much better stock. I've never re-tubed one.

mbratch

03-19-2006, 03:17 PM

I actually had a SF that sucked, couldn't sell it fast enough. Bought it brand new, 72 I think. Tried tubes and speakers but it never sounded decent.Did you have the bias adjusted properly and were all the caps in good shape?

myles111

03-19-2006, 06:13 PM

For the first time I just tried a new Fender Blackface '65 Deluxe Reverb reissue. I though it sounded really good. I was surprised because usually when I try new Fenders, I don't like how they sound.

How do the new reissues compare to the old original backface Deluxe Reverbs. and how do the old silverfaces compare too.

Do they all sound the same? Or are there noticable differences?

There are differences. The tone caps in the new amps are not the old Astrons which sound, play, and feel different. The resistors are metal film rather than carbon comp and there is a difference there as well. There are transformer differences and other differences.

But .... you can do a bit of inexpensive work on the reissue and have a killer amp that will stand head to head with the originals (as many of the originals are not in tip top shape) if you put some good tubes in the amp and bias them at 65% or so of ID depending on plate voltage.

brad347

03-19-2006, 06:43 PM

myles111

03-19-2006, 06:55 PM

Myles, I disagree with a few points.

Astron caps fell out of use in the days of the brown/blonde amps. After that they went to blue Mallorys (except cathode bypass and other electrolytics which they still sometimes used astrons...)

The carbon comp vs. metal film making an audible difference is very open to debate. The reality is, it probably doesn't, except in a FEW critical locations.

Transformers make a FAR bigger difference than any of the above (though the tone caps are very important).

I agree with you on the transformer issue.

The blue Mallory and Astrons are both in a number of my customers amps and each sound great .... different than ceramic disk caps or orange drops.

I think the issue with carbon comps in the tone stack is that they are less stable and change value more when they get warmer and perhaps this change in resistance value lends the amps to something like a mini on the fly automatic adjustment perhaps.

In essence though, I agree with all of your points here.

brad347

03-19-2006, 07:17 PM

i love the yellow astrons! They are rare after about '62 though. Unfortunately they also often leak DC a lot.

songsmith1950

03-21-2006, 12:38 PM

This would also tend to mean that they would also leak lower frequencies that would usually be attenuated by the capacitors. This would make the amp sound warmer and a bit fuller. Basically the same effect as running a larger capacitor would.
Could this not be a bit of the reason for the preference? Not being argumentative here, just wondering if perhaps a warmer flavor is not what you are liking more?
Also, a cap that leaks DC can, under some conditions, set a false bias on the next tube in line, causing some clipping in the upper side of the waveforms. This could cause, in addition to the warmer tone characteristics, an earlier and softer excursion into distortion than the same amp would have.
I say softer because the bottom end of the waveform would not flatten out as quickly as the top and would actually be delayed in onset.

Just thoughts I wanted to share and a question I wanted to ask to help determine what you are calling "better". Perhaps this will aid me in attempts to build a better mousetrap.

Tom

Songsmith

brad347

03-21-2006, 01:06 PM

quite possible! I know I have some leaky astrons in my brown super and I specifically asked my tech not to replace them!

gdwill2u

03-21-2006, 03:44 PM

I have a DRRI and there was a blond 65 in the store when I bought it, I actually thought the DRRI sounded better, much better. Maybe the blond needed new tubes and a rebuild, mayber it needed a visit to the tech, who knows.....

I put it NOS tubes and a Weber F150 and now the amp is suweeeeet!

I think those that say the new DRRI's don't compare are either just snobs or they are comparing an old amp with a speaker upgrade and a new set of NOS tubes with a stock DRRI, that just isn't fair.

fact is any stock DRRI will sound better than an old '65 with bad tubes and a lousy speaker, and any old DR with new speaker and tubes will sound better than a stock DRRI.

The circuitry is the same....so what else is left but the tubes and the speaker.

This whole topic is like the boutique versus manufactured stuff, I'd be real careful I am not just buying into someone else's hype. Let your ears decide.

mbratch

03-21-2006, 04:30 PM

hasserl

03-21-2006, 04:30 PM

Caps that leak DC are not good, no matter what. DC on the grid of the following tube, or on your Volume/Tone controls, is not good. Just more internet BS psychoacoustic mojo.

tedzepplin

03-21-2006, 04:49 PM

The circuitry is the same....so what else is left but the tubes and the speaker.

I wish the circuitry was the same. then I'd go buy a new one without hesitation. But they aren't.

Here are photos showing the insides of both old and new Blackface deluxe reverb amps.

http://img475.imageshack.us/img475/7789/19654yw.jpg (http://imageshack.us)
http://img475.imageshack.us/img475/1248/reissue8cj.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

mbratch

03-21-2006, 07:08 PM

The circuitry is the same....so what else is left but the tubes and the speaker.
There's also the transformers, brand/size/type of capacitors and resistors. I think the schematics match. Believe it or not, the entire PCB layout affects the tone, not just the components and what's connected to what. So a hand-wired version of a circuit will sound different than a PCB version of the same circuit. I suppose this is due to electromagnetic interactions between traces versus wires. Even two different PCB layouts can sound noticeably different. Read up on the difference between older Blues Jr amps (before 2003 I think) with green PCB, and later with cream circuit board. The only thing that changed in the circuit (schematic) is the reverb section (to reduce noise), nothing in the main signal path. But the cream colored board sounds noticeably brighter than the green with the reverb all the way off. I don't think it's because of the difference in color. ;)

Note this is not an argument that PCB = bad. It's just saying that it's different. The DRRI is a fine amp. It just doesn't sound the same as a vintage DR. And if Fender lays out the PCB on the DRRI differently at some point, that version may sound different than the previous.

brad347

03-21-2006, 07:14 PM

I've read somewhere where Fuchs talks about this... how there's a "right" way to design a circuit board in a PCB amp and most people don't consider it...

Also, let's not even get started on the cheap components in the RI versus the original...

Also... you asked "what else is there besides the speakers, tubes, and circuitry?"

The answer to that question my friend is TRANSFORMERS, which are about as critical to the sound of an amp as anything else.

songsmith1950

03-21-2006, 08:39 PM

First to address what hasserl had to say about the caps. I was not saying that a leaky cap was desirable. I only said that a leaky cap could be equated to a larger value cap in that a leaky cap passes far lower frequencies far more easily than a non leaky cap of the same value.

As to a small dc voltage on a pot, maybe not ideal but unless the pot is totally cranked 10k or more resistance is not going to care much about a small leakage. A shorted cap could cause a problem. Again, I do not advocate keeping leaky caps.

What I would do instead is find a good quality replacement cap and try to approximate the value of the old cap when leakage is taken into consideration. That should give the same warmth.

As for the DC on the grids of tubes. In some of the stages this is called bias and is not only normal but very necessary. What I was saying about this is that incorrect bias can induce soft clipping on one side of a waveform earlier than normal adding as bit of fullness to a signal.

This can also be simulated by a simple bias adjustment to the stage involved if it is found to be a positive characteristic.

As far as the PCB/PTP argument is involved. Yes they are different. But as someone said the layout on a PCB is different from on a tagboard and hand wired unit. The truth is the layout has variations between tagboard units as well. It is not possible to reproduce circuitry within 10 or even 100 thousands in handwiring and tagboard. My point is that every tagboard amp will have slight differences if this theory is accepted. Only a well engineered PCB amp can be anywhere near identical from unit to unit.

The greatest problem with a PCB, and this comes from someone in r and d who works with PCB's usings 9 syncronized state of the art DSPS along with mulitple codecs and op amps running at signal to noise of 137db, is when tube sockets are PCB mounted. Heat will guarantee over some period of time catastrophic failure of PCB. Otherwise a well designed PCB of good thick material can last as long as anything else.

Brad is right about the transformers. I suspect if the DRRI output tranny was replaced by a Mercury Magnetics Axiom tranny made for a blackface DR it would make an incredible difference.

And please keep in mind that Leo was more business oriented that you are believing. He used good parts but not necessarily the very best.

Tom

Songsmith

There is my own two cents worth.

pedalcr8z

03-21-2006, 09:57 PM

Songsmith pm sent.

brad347

03-21-2006, 11:11 PM

songsmith, I agree with you on most points. Leo was very cost conscious, correct, but the parts in those pre-cbs amps are all quality parts. Fact of the matter is, what was 'cheap' back then seems to have been better made than what is 'cheap' now.

songsmith1950

03-22-2006, 08:37 AM

What Leo did best was to make sure that all caps and resistors were fully rated for the voltages and wattages he needed. In that way the parts of the amp that would be difficult to replace were pretty well bulletproof. Some other manufacturers scimped and ran tolerances way too close, resulting in amps that needed more than a tube change when down.

I have a 1938 Wabash Combo that has all of the original caps except for the power supply filters. Love that thing! Also have a 67 (Supro) Gretsch Compact Tremverb. Changed coupling caps in that one to take the surf sound out and make it more full range. Love that one as well.

In the late 60's, before going back to school for computers and digital audio I worked in TV repair. Saw a lot of components that were marginal in rating go bad, sometimes with really horrific results.

Sorry, writing a book again. Again, Leo's strongest point was making sure he had a margin on the ratings of his parts and using a good quality if not always the most expensive military grade stuff.

Leo did good! Nope, Leo did great!

Tom

Songsmith

Fuchsaudio

03-23-2006, 10:26 PM

I've read somewhere where Fuchs talks about this... how there's a "right" way to design a circuit board in a PCB amp and most people don't consider it...

The Fender reissue clearly shows how they were concerned about quick assembly time (note the ribbon connectors that join everything between the front panel and motherboard). All the power, standby and fuse holders are plug in connectors, which means that amp went from wave solder to guitar testing in about 2-hours. Note the rare use of coax anyplace. They are somewhat noisy, and what coax is in there, is pretty low grade stuff. The output transformers and chokes are imported, the power tranny is Marvel from Mexico (last one I saw). No more Schumachers kids. The resistors are marginally rated (I've replaced plenty of open plate loads (for some reason on the driver tube more than anywhere else). When you figure they sold retail on sale at GC for $ 699.00, it's amazing.

Many amps makers (Peavey, Ampeg, Crate) actually make the entire amp as one board, with all parts installed and all interconnects attached. The boards have break-lines cut into them, so after wave soldering, they snap the boards apart and drop them into chassis. The little Peavey (4 x EL-84, I forget the model), is a masterpiece of packaging and layout for efficiency. How does it sound ? Well anyway, moving on, the modern circuit board programs will take a schematic with what's called a "netlist", and turn it into a stunningly beautiful board. All the parts are in nice rows, all the parts facing in a perfect lineup like little electronic soldiers, but how does it sound ? Grounding, parts placement, leads talking to other leads etc, can reak havoc with a "computer designed" board. This is especially true of hgih impedance, high gain tube circuits. Besides, these layouts may not be too cost efficient for mass building.

The other issues are high voltages. The old Plush and Earth tube amps failed, when they tried to put power tubes on a circuit card. Randall Smith at Mesa Boogie actually was one of the first guys to get a tube power amp (power tubes included) to work and not burn up, in the early days. Even today, many builder (myself included) don't like the idea of power tubes (and in some cases preamp tubes) to be on the boards. As long as the traces are heavy, the copper thick, and board solder masked, hgih and low voltages can safely co-exist and function on a PC board.

The Blues Deluxe/Blues Deville and that series actually had problems with stability that were fixed by buying a special lower gain 12AX7 from Sovtek ! (Boy, it's nice to be a big company with buying power). Makes you wonder how much cheaper designing it right would have been.

Anyway, Andy Marshall (THD) has a great piece about board designs on his webpage. I think Diezel, Bogner, Budda, and many other high end amps have proven PC boards can be produced reliably and sound good. Bad PC boards gave PC boards a bad name, not the concept itself.

Oh, and by the way: The reissues don't come close to the real deal. I just overhauled a real blackface Deluxe Reverb, and the new ones aren't really that close, other than looks. Sorry if I rambled. :NUTS

Fuchsaudio

03-23-2006, 10:30 PM

I've read somewhere where Fuchs talks about this... how there's a "right" way to design a circuit board in a PCB amp and most people don't consider it...
The Fender reissue clearly shows how they were concerned about quick assembly time (note the ribbon connectors that join everything between the front panel and motherboard). All the power, standby and fuse holders are plug in connectors, which means that amp went from wave solder to guitar testing in about 2-hours. Note the rare use of coax anyplace. They are somewhat noisy, and what coax is in there, is pretty low grade stuff. The output transformers and chokes are imported, the power tranny is Marvel from Mexico (last one I saw). No more Schumachers kids. The resistors are marginally rated (I've replaced plenty of open plate loads (for some reason on the driver tube more than anywhere else). When you figure they sold retail on sale at GC for $ 699.00, it's amazing.

Many amps makers (Peavey, Ampeg, Crate) actually make the entire amp as one board, with all parts installed and all interconnects attached. The boards have break-lines cut into them, so after wave soldering, they snap the boards apart and drop them into chassis. The little Peavey (4 x EL-84, I forget the model), is a masterpiece of packaging and layout for efficiency. How does it sound ? Well anyway, moving on, the modern circuit board programs will take a schematic with what's called a "netlist", and turn it into a stunningly beautiful board. All the parts are in nice rows, all the parts facing in a perfect lineup like little electronic soldiers, but how does it sound ? Grounding, parts placement, leads talking to other leads etc, can reak havoc with a "computer designed" board. This is especially true of hgih impedance, high gain tube circuits. Besides, these layouts may not be too cost efficient for mass building.

The other issues are high voltages. The old Plush and Earth tube amps failed, when they tried to put power tubes on a circuit card. Randall Smith at Mesa Boogie actually was one of the first guys to get a tube power amp (power tubes included) to work and not burn up, in the early days. Even today, many builder (myself included) don't like the idea of power tubes (and in some cases preamp tubes) to be on the boards. As long as the traces are heavy, the copper thick, and board solder masked, hgih and low voltages can safely co-exist and function on a PC board.

The Blues Deluxe/Blues Deville and that series actually had problems with stability that were fixed by buying a special lower gain 12AX7 from Sovtek ! (Boy, it's nice to be a big company with buying power). Makes you wonder how much cheaper designing it right would have been.

Anyway, Andy Marshall (THD) has a great piece about board designs on his webpage. I think Diezel, Bogner, Budda, Fuchs (lol) and many other high end amps have proven PC boards can be produced reliably and sound good. Bad PC boards gave PC boards a bad name, not the concept itself.

Oh, and by the way: The reissues don't come close to the real deal. I just overhauled a real blackface Deluxe Reverb, and the new ones aren't really that close, other than looks. Sorry if I rambled. :NUTS

brad347

03-24-2006, 08:09 AM

right on andy, very informative post.

songsmith1950

03-24-2006, 08:47 AM

Very valid points Andy. The key to a PCB is the design and the interconnects. A well constructed PCB IS the equal of any PTP amp. I can elaborate if needed but I think you have already pretty well said that in your post.

I think the main point is what the user needs.

I do agree about the low quality build of some amps. That is automatic. I do however strongly disagree with a some of your statements.

First, the lowly Peavey Classic 30 and Delta Blues series are capable of sounding incredibly good. Have had them, gigged with them, and loved them dearly. I could afford one. In fact I have had many amps, since I began playing electric in 63.

We could go much farther than your premise about the Peaveys and RI's you seem to look down on. We could say that if you want to really hear the difference get a Dumble. What the heck it is only 80 grand or whatever they are going for. . . You know, if you are going to play a party for beer every now and then it is worth it. If you are going to jam in your living room with yourself on your computer recordings it is most surely worth it. . Is it?

If it is worth 2000 to get tone why not 80,000? If the 500 to 900 dollar amps are not even worthy of describing tonewise then why bother with the 2000 dollar or 3000 dollar amps.

Dumble, yes.

As for me and many of us who play for fun, or in little bars now and then and parties, we can get some really nice sounds from what you think is crap.

Granted, for the now 800 dollar price tag of a DRRI I would go a couple of hundred more, get a silverface and blackface it. But for an extra thousand I would not get a Vicky over a BMRI. Not with a wife, kids and a family. Besides, my living room would not know the difference and neither would the nieghborhood bar.

The DRRI is perfectly capable of putting out some incredible sounds. Exactly like the original??? Nope, but then probably no two originals are alike either. Does it HAVE to sound just like the original? Up to the listener I guess. By the time you get bar noise and clatter in it there is not going to be any appreciable difference. If you are recording million dollar records get a Dumble.

Sorry for the attitude, but I have heard some legendary sounds out of amps you won't even describe the sound of.

Get a Dumble. Wow!!!! Silver wire. . .

Sorry, I do have to add this. Andy, I do know your amps are world class in every way. Please don't take that wrong. I know your design and engineering skills are on par with anyone, probably Dumble himself. And yes, if I had a lot of discretionary cash I would surely buy one of yours and Dumbles both. We are not all that way, that is what I am saying. Please don't belittle what many people have every right to be incredibly proud of. They sound just fine.

Tom

Songsmith

Fuchsaudio

03-24-2006, 10:41 AM

Tom: Don't misread (or read something into) the post. I respect the companies I mentioned for what they do. They do offer a great sounding, reliable products, within the constraints of their business model. Yes, they sound good. Do they sound like (in the case of the DRRI) the originals ? No. That was my point. I didn't mean to make it sound like these amps don't sound any good. They just don't sound as good as the amps they'd like you to think they are. The Fender reissues actually even have fake ground switches, to make them convincing. That's kinda cool, but why waste money a switch, why not spend it on metalfilm resistors...?

The Peavey's offer an excellent value/performance ratio. Again, none of these companies represent themselves as boutique, nor are they.

Point well taken Tom. That's what I get for posting at 2.00 am...lol.

songsmith1950

03-24-2006, 11:32 AM

I do believe we agree.

For the record, if I were playing for a living I would surely have one of yours or something in that range. In that case it is a tool where utter reliability is needed in addition to the tone. Both of these are delivered in the case of your product and some of those such as you.

Thank you for understanding my point Andy, and for not attacking. As I reread my post I realize I was overstating to put it lightly. You would have had every right to be upset I guess.

Gosh, gulp.

We do agree. . .

With all respect

Tom

Songsmith

Jon Silberman

03-24-2006, 12:33 PM

brad347

03-24-2006, 02:08 PM

Jon, the "runts of the litter" are probably what many people would consider to be "broken"

:)

Fuchsaudio

03-24-2006, 04:29 PM

I have heard vintage DRs that, soundwise, are all over the map. Sure, the picks of the literature kick the DRRIs' butts but the DRRI's kick the runts of the litter's butts, too. I happen to think that with a few small changes, the average DRRI can hold its own in just any application with the average vintage DRs as I've heard 'em. Now you may say in response, but if *I* could work for 2 hours on each of those vintage DRs, I'd have 'em all sounding better than the RIs. And you may be right but that's the ideal, not real, world.

Honestly, the variations are tubes, and stuff like capacitors that get stale. The amps likely started out sounding good. Your likely hearing age much more than construction issues. The re-issues, on the other hand, have Mexican or Chinese output iron, poor grade passive parts and tone stealing construction techniques to blame for their variations. I replaced a few DRRI outputs with a Mercury, and the difference was stupid. Of-course this is $ $ 10.00 vs maybe $ 100.00. This (in most cases) explains the gap between boutique and bargain.

Jon Silberman

03-24-2006, 05:08 PM

Jon, the "runts of the litter" are probably what many people would consider to be "broken"

:)

Agreed, that's why I added the conditions/disclaimers I did. :)

Look, this is all I'm really saying: I've heard and played plenty of the DRRIs and they're decent-sounding amps and I agree with the viewpoint that on a stage at gig volume in an ensemble setting with the simple change of removing the bright cap from the RI I believe few here would pass a blind test as to which was which (some could but most wouldn't). Just my opinion, obviously, we're not in a position here to test it empirically. :)

Luke

03-24-2006, 05:32 PM

Leo was very cost conscious, correct, but the parts in those pre-cbs amps are all quality parts. Fact of the matter is, what was 'cheap' back then seems to have been better made than what is 'cheap' now.
I'm not sure I agree with this. In the 1950s and 1960s parts were routinely +/- 20% of spec. Today we demand microscopic variation, so even today's junk parts are closer in tolerence than the premium parts of yesteryear.

PCB is all about eliminating human labor. So why then do amp builders not set up shop in the same countries where others manufacture clothing and sneakers? Amp building is not complex when done on an assembly line format. Each grunt has a single task they perform endlessly as the amps go by. I am certain an all hand made Chinese version of any amplifier could be produced using all premium parts for 1/2 the costs of doing it in the US or UK. The problem always becomes the manufacturer gets greedy and starts cutting corners on parts too.

mbratch

03-24-2006, 07:31 PM

PCB is all about eliminating human labor. So why then do amp builders not set up shop in the same countries where others manufacture clothing and sneakers? Amp building is not complex when done on an assembly line format. Each grunt has a single task they perform endlessly as the amps go by. I am certain an all hand made Chinese version of any amplifier could be produced using all premium parts for 1/2 the costs of doing it in the US or UK. The problem always becomes the manufacturer gets greedy and starts cutting corners on parts too.I've wondered the same thing. I believe the answer is, although it would be cheaper to have a hand-wired amp from overseas than made in USA, it's still not nearly as cheap as PCB, which appeals to a much larger market because of the price. An amp manufacturer can sell a whole lot more amps at $500 plus or minus 30% than at $1,000 plus or minus 30%. And there is always cost cutting by a manufacturer, no matter what technology they are building.

songsmith1950

03-25-2006, 08:32 AM

Handbuilt circuitry could be done overseas. I will be very sirprised if someone doesn't do that at some point. PCB's are now for the most part built by machine, stuffed by machine, and tested by machine. The ability to make them cheap is shown by the new Epiphone amps.

The new Epis are showing you can get pretty dang good tone from something built that cheaply. Reliability will be seen over time. They will sell tons of those amps, even if a tech has to replace the boards with hand built at some point.

The main thing is our society and it's business models have changed. In the past quality and value for the dollar in reliable products were foremost in everything. The rise of the bottom line oriented managers and directors has changed all of this. Where a company used to compete with other companies in it's industry for success now it has to compete with everyone in the world in every business for stockholders.

This success is measured by dollars spent to make a dollar as well as how much each year costs can be cut. We are in a cycle now where costs have been cut many times, perhaps too many in some instances. But yet they must still cut to make the stockholders happy. A dollar or a cent saved by downgrading just a bit here and there has now become not only good in their eyes but vital.

Sorry about the book but the industry I am in has taught me well.

Yes, the DRRI's can be very good amps and can sound incredibly good. Are the speakers downgrades that can sound good at the cheapest prices possible? Yes. Are the PCB's the least they can get away with and still hope for some form of reliability? Yes. Are the tubes the cheapest they can find and still hope to sound good consistently? Yes.

In Leo's days and up through the first few years of CBS one of the major goals was quality and reliability. If you needed to spent an extra ten percent to have that you did. Now that then percent may cause your stock to drop on the market and would surely cause your directors to lose the bonuses they get from becoming more efficient each year.

I think you understand now. I hope so.

The DRRI can sound very good, even great! If you retro it with a top notch speaker it can sound a tad better. If you retro it with NOS tubes it can sound a tad better yet, maybe more than a tad. If you have a tag board put in it to replace the PCB it can perhaps sound better yet.

The result would be a very consistent tone and amp quality and reliability. The companies have cheap down now where the actual DRRI may sound good and last years. We have to give them that. The handbuilts can be repaired and touched up and last decades or even centuries. So can the DRRI with a tagboard installed.

For those who can afford a DRRI new or used you can have a great fine sounding amp that will last a long time. Some even sound great. You don't have to figure out how to cut your family's budget to heck to do this. You can buy a Peavey Delta for even less and have a great amp.

What Andy and others like him offer is the ability to buy and amp that is done the old fashioned way. Well, actually better. The quality of parts in a Fuchs amp or some of the others is actually way superior to what Leo had in his day. As someone who started in this industry in 1967 I can say and know this.

Andy and the others can hand build an amp with the finest of components and construction practices. They don't have to cut ten cents off each amp to save ten thousand dollars on a hundred thousand units. They can, in theory, build perfect amps.

Are they better? Yes. Cubic dollars my friends, cubic dollars. Are they more reliable? Yes, same reason. Will they sound better? Consistently yes, for longer yes, with far less effort and upgrading yes. Every minute of every day? No, as some of these lower priced amps can sound totally awesome a lot of the time.

You do get what you pay for in many ways, my friends. The only question is how much can you afford and what do you really need? The DRRI can sound 95 percent of an original fairly easily. In a crowded bar or in a band mix many would never ever notice. Non musicians would never know at all. You might not even know, sometimes I sure can't tell.

Would I pay 2 or 3 grand for an amp? Yep, if I had the money and didn't need it for family. Darn right I would. Am I happy with less? Every time I get a good groove going. . .

Judge for yourselves. Both sides have totally righteous viewpoints. There is room and need for all.

Tom

Songsmith, who just wrote another darn book.

s2amps

05-12-2006, 09:47 PM

I have rebuilt many DRRIs into hand-wired versions of the same amp. I can't say I'm a fan of the RI. I might be lucky in that my 64 and a good friend's 66 both sound phenomenal. In any case, I use these amps as the standard against which to judge the rebuilds. I just don't find the RI to sound as good as the originals until they are rebuilt with top quality parts (including caps, resistors, OT, tubes, speaker, etc.). The RI no doubt has the vibe of the original, but it just isn't the same. Maybe after 40 years of abuse...

Also, the RI circuit is *NOT* exactly the same as the original. Check the schematics.

Ricky_Rockhardo

05-13-2006, 05:59 AM

Do search on this ID on the 'bay from a guy who offfers ptp upgrades for your DRRI, his ID is biasedmullard. His feedback is pretty strong, he used to hang at 18watt.com if I recall and he also builds 36 watt Marshall clones from time to time. Check out his feedback, I've yet to see any dissatisfied customers. I almost pulled the trigger on one of the 36 watters but now I'm gonna do the Club 40 from Mr. Germino.

mad dog

05-13-2006, 08:36 AM

I got a DRRI first, close to 10 years ago. It did have some of the clarity and sweetness of the originals, offset by a certain thinness, definitely on the cold side. A little tech love worked wonders, as did warranty repairs on truly crapola reverb setup. NOS tubes, proper bias, much, much better. Swapped out the (at the time) not-great speaker for a greenback, that was a rocking amp. I got a '67 BFDR and later sold the RI. The guy who bought it got one hell of a deal. Great amp, but a good original is better. The older Fenders have this wide open sound, hard to describe, but a very real difference to me. On stage, I wonder how much of that difference can be heard. At home, it was pretty obvious.

Mondoslug

05-13-2006, 08:43 AM

I actually had a SF that sucked, couldn't sell it fast enough. Bought it brand new, 72 I think.
I bet if you bought that same '72 today...it might sound pretty good.
No doubt there's dawgs for every year though.

I'd take a Silverface non master over the Reissue anyday. That said the Reissues sound okay and look good but....

Huckleberry

05-13-2006, 11:00 AM

I've played a lot of amps, and got an amazing deal on my DRRI...so I may be biased (bad amp pun there. I apologize). The DRRI is a great amp. I never removed the bright cap. I waited for the speaker to break in, blahblahblah. I love the amp: it has been reliable for years, sounds great...to me, which is the missing element on every schematic. Me. Would I be happier with an Allen or Fargen version? I might. But not $1000 to $2000 happier. And if I thought I would be, I'd move heaven and earth to get one of those (note: I dream of an Allen amp, should it ever be something I could get without starving my kids...).
And if you gotta "settle" for PCB (and believe me, there's literature out there actually claiming it's the better way to go. Meh), it's a pretty simple circuit. Not a forest of wires to get through to find a motherboard that looks like a Hollywood map of the stars homes. Chassis mounted tubes.
It's a good amp. NOT on the build quality level of Andy's stuff, or Ben Fargen's, or (name of your fave boutique amp guy here), but a fine amp nonetheless.
You can make yourself nuts worrying about that "little bit more" you could be getting.
(none of the above is meant to be inflammatory. I simply own & love a Fender DRRI. Others do, others do not).

Goldstrat

05-13-2006, 12:22 PM

I'm no expert but it seems to me that some of the older parts and specs is what makes them sound the way they do. I have seen where an old amp sounds real nice and people try to make it better by replacing Caps and resisters with newer higher quality specced parts only to find it sounds worse when they are done. It's just like taking an old strat or Tele and improving it with different pickups, better electonics and hardware. When you get done surprise it doesn't sound like a vintage strat or Tele anymore. It may be better to some people but it is for sure different than the reference you are comparing it to. If you really want to replicate the old school tone we all love get some unskilled underpaid workers and some +/- 20% resisters and caps solder them together and some will sound great and some will not just like they really did back then. Then after 30 years some will sound fantastic and some will sound awful depending on which way the parts drifted. Some will be bright and thin and some will be warm and big. That's reality, there is no magic in any of the vintage stuff.

fullerplast

05-13-2006, 12:38 PM

That's reality, there is no magic in any of the vintage stuff.

I agree with everything you've said except your last sentence! IMHO what you've described is exactly the magic of vintage gear. It's the perfect combination of a variety of components that have either drifted or been manufactured off of a nominal value such that the combination is better than the average amp of that same design. It's also not easily reproduced unless you disassemble and measure every component, document the path of every wire, and blueprint the amp.

Same thing with guitars, it's the sum of all the ordinary parts that makes some guitars magical and others average. Perfect accidents in most cases.

Franklin

06-17-2006, 11:59 AM

Mixoso

06-17-2006, 12:24 PM

I am going to stand up for the underdog here: the silverface deluxe reverb. I bought one recently at the guitar show in philly and i love it. I put in an eminence "private jack" for $85 and the amp cost $650...what a deal, all things considered. I iuse the DR with pedals wioth it set to mild break up and it sounds just fantastic. I also have a silverface princeton reverb that is the best sounding thing in the world with p-90s...the distortion is fantastic and record great, always jumping out of the mix. When I am feeling amnbitious I A/B between the PR and the DR. A bit of a hassle to set up 2 amps but worth it.
I don''t know about you guys, but I never really considered Silverface amps, even though i hadnt played one since the eighties, but I think they are really underrated especially if like me you dont have unlimited funds.

clunk

06-17-2006, 08:14 PM

i compared a DRRI to my original 65. Found both to be similar in tone. But like i said in a previous post the DRRI does not get as loud as the original set at the same volume. It also doesnt sound as "full" as the original at lower volumes. I found it to sound similar to the original when cranked. Also when cranked its about as loud as my original set at about 6-7 in volume. Still not a bad sounding amp though.
Looking at the internal parts i doubt i would pay what they are selling for at retail. I would be forced to buy one used and probably have some changes made such as the OT to an MM tranny and with some NOS tubes, would be a big improvement.
compared to the original i would say its en par at certain settings as described above. Is it as good sounding? No, but for what it is id say it still gets that original DR sound across.
Keep in mind this is just one comparison of one DRRI to one original.

Clunk

Huckleberry

06-17-2006, 09:01 PM

What's up Huckleberry!!?!?

I love my tweaked DRRI (no bright cap mod!), but I must admit that i like the real thing better. A keyboardist that I was in a band with used to let me use his at gigs, and I always liked it better.

Hey, Franklin! Good to "see" you!

I see what you're saying, but I have to assume you're also getting the benefit of some good mileage on the original as well. Which is why a true comparison will always be difficult.

Original, Reiisue, SIlverface...just an all around awesome sound: no master volume, two sweaty 6V6s!!!!!

DJLantz444

06-17-2006, 10:13 PM

How does the headroom compare between the different DRs? I'm looking to play very small jazz clubs with one (see my topic).

Huckleberry

06-18-2006, 08:08 AM

"Very small"? The DRRI should handle it no problem.

tdu

06-18-2006, 08:41 AM

I don't have the amp knowledge that a lot of you guys have. The 2 amps sound similar to me when I play them. But one thing I have learned buying vintage amps is that they are so easy to fix and mod that I could probably learn a lot of the stuff myself. That's a comforting thought for me, and a reason why I have only bought either handmade amps or 'vintage' ones lately.

Curly

06-18-2006, 10:13 AM

I have a nice '94 blonde DRRI that I bought new. It sounded great when new, but after loaning it out for a while, I thought it never sounded quite right afterwards.

After reading through this thread, I have to be honest and say that my amp just doesn't quite get there -- it sounds good, but not great.
I've gone through more speakers and tubes with this amp than any other one I've owned -- I have a G12H30 in there now, but I've tried a Weber C12N, a Jensen RI C12N, a Reverend Alltone ... as far as tubes, I've tried NOS Mazdas, Phillips, and the newer JJ's. I run a good NOS in V1.

so after the amount of time, effort, and money, I've spent, I'd have to be honest and say I'm not sure it's worth it.

I appreciate the other knowledgeable posts. I think Fender proved that there was a market out there for a Deluxe Reverb reissue, even though they weren't quite willing to "do it right". At a certain point, Fender makes compromises based on manufacturing and profit concerns. No problem with that ... I think the majority of players on the Gear Page are more discerning, and aren't Fender's target market for some of these amps.

In his "Ask Gerald" column of the July issue of Vintage Guitar, Gerald Weber said:

The only upgrade needed in the reissue is replacing the electrolytic filer caps. I use the Sprague Atom brand, which will fit on the printed circuitboard.

I can't remember what values Fender used for the main filters (those that connect to pin 8 of the rectifier tube, but are mounted under the cap pan), but if they're using two 350-volt caps in a totem-pole-series configuration, replace them with two 220-uf/ 350 volt caps.This will help the amp play in tune when overdriven, and give it a more robust low-end response.

I agree with others' comments regarding the transformers ... I think you could replace some of the main components, but the trannies are still a key to the way an amp responds.

Gary Brennan

09-28-2006, 12:29 PM

What effect does changing the phase inverter coupling cap to .02uf orange cap have, as suggested by someone elsewhere in this thread?

AJ Love

09-28-2006, 12:51 PM

Isn't the cost of a DRRI brand new + a speaker change + cap change + NOS tubes less than the cost of a brand new Allen?!

HeyMrTeleMan

09-28-2006, 05:22 PM

Isn't the cost of a DRRI brand new + a speaker change + cap change + NOS tubes less than the cost of a brand new Allen?!

I had a DRRI with a Tone Tubby Ceramic in it and it was mighty nice. I considered having the guy on eBay hand wire it, but ended up replacing the TT with the original and selling it. Then I ordered an Allen Accomplice (built by Allen) and put that TT in it. This is a really great amp. I mean the ceramic TT (which was broken in by the DRRI) is very lush and "open". It does take time for the TT to break-in from new. But oh, wow, great cleans and I can hold it clean and break it up with my pick attack. And it's loud! If I want it loud. The Allen brings out the best in the TT.

OK, so, the DRRI at $800 plus the $120 for the TT takes it to $920. I paid about $1400 for the Allen, (I took it without a speaker). Is it worth the extra bucks? Yeh, I think so. If you can afford it. The build quality is wonderful.

I really love the Allen and am still discovering it's many voices. In many ways it's better than an original Deluxe Reverb and in "x" years, it too will have the mojo and vibe so coveted in Fenders. It actually came with a certain amount of that already in it. It is a legacy David leaves for others to one day play it, and like I do every time, say "Wow".

I could have purchased an original DR, but I'd be terrified of it's "fragility" and the conundrum of upgrading those things that must be upgraded and thus affecting it's collectibility. I don't worry about the Allen. Maybe I should;^) OK, now I'm paranoid;^)

BLP

AJ Love

09-28-2006, 07:35 PM

OK, so, the DRRI at $800 plus the $120 for the TT takes it to $920. I paid about $1400 for the Allen, (I took it without a speaker). Is it worth the extra bucks? Yeh, I think so. If you can afford it. The build quality is wonderful.

And... if you add in cost of NOS tubes, depending on what you are into as far as NOS tubes, you are even closer to if not at that $1400 price

Thanks for your perspective on the Allen amp, it's on my short list of potential buys later in the year

Peppy

11-12-2006, 05:46 PM

What effect does changing the phase inverter coupling cap to .02uf orange cap have, as suggested by someone elsewhere in this thread?

Sorry to retread the old thread...but what I've been wondering as well.

epluribus

11-12-2006, 08:27 PM

Been lurking this discussion, it's a good one.

Slightly OT, but maybe not so much...I just nabbed an '83 Deluxe Reverb II at a flea market. Spent quite a bit of time with it, going over the schemo, finding some of the many great tones in it. (Details under seperate post by the amp title, if you really want the story.)

It'll be going to the shop soon to check for things like component drift and some minor tweaks. A tube roll and most likely a Weber 12F150 (per Ted's usually impressive recommendations) will come next.

Not that I'm trying to make a '65 DR out of the clean side, or a Boogie out of the drive channel, but I would like to capitalize on the goods this amp brings to the table--make the clean side sound Blackface-ish like it should, and the hi-gain side Marshally/Mesa-ish, as I gather Rivera intended. (Cuz it already does.) But a pure copy isn't the target here.

All that said; tubes, component values, speakers and all; the other big upgrade I hear a lot about is the Output Transformer. Exaclty what can you expect to achieve with a different OT, other than durability? This is one piece of amp theory I've yet to really broach.

While anyone is at it, what would you recommend for a replacement and why? (I need to know this cuz I know my amp guy is going to ask me and I don't want to get sent to the hall again for not having my homework done. Todd, better check your e-mail bud. :)

Thanks. And incidentally, to all of you who are sweatin' about writing books--some of us are listening intently and find this very useful. The give and take here is terrific too. Great thread, 'preciate it!

--Ray

Failing a new book, good links are always appreciated too.

epluribus

11-13-2006, 08:40 AM

Me again. :)

Just came from two other threads on this very subject, only different models of the DR. FYI I'm about to post several of these issues on the tech page, as the low-end and drive characteristics of all three of our amps appear to be very closely related despite the differences. We'll see what they have to say over there.

--Ray

...but I'll be back here too. Fair warning. :)

davess23

11-13-2006, 10:01 AM

I'd go for a fairly early silverface DR. The differences between them and the blackfaces aren't huge, the way they are for some of the other Fenders.

Silverfaces have their own very good thing going, soundwise. I'd never blackface mine, since it already sounds just the way I want it to. You can get one for about what you'd pay for a DRRI. You'll probably need to recap it and put a replacement speaker in...I'd recommend something like a Weber 12F150. Right now, all this can be accomplished for about a grand. That's the same money you'd need to buy a DRRI and upgrade it.

You should easily be able to locate a silverface that sounds good. As soon as you remove the weary old original speaker and put in a new Weber or other quality driver, the amp's sound should improve considerably. I think a lot of people reject fine old amps due to worn-out speakers that don't let the amp perform to potential.

DRRI's are pretty nice amps, but the silverface is the better deal than the DRRI. It will sound at least as good, given the new speaker and a cap job. It has better components and is more readily repairable. In addition, it will probably also appreciate in value.