Opinions on Speaker Simulators, Palmer, Motherload etc.

[entraind]

I'm moving to a house where I'm going to need to be quiet in the evenings/nights when I practice/record. I've been looking at the Palmer PDI-03 and the Sequis Motherload and am wondering if any of you have had experience with either or both of them?

I'll be using them with my Mesa Lonestar and a Carr Imperial and want to capture the sound of those amps on the verge of breakup as best I can, although I realize there's nothing like the real thing. It does give me hope that Satriani recorded his new album entirely with the Palmer...

I'm also open to other solutions, devices that I haven't looked into.

[entraind]

bump...

[908SSP]

Sorry don't have any experience with those products. I do have a Richter attenuator from Motherload and it works. The reactive load in the Motherload is the same as used in the Richter and that part works extremely well. My amps respond to the load just like a speaker cab. There is web forum where they deal with recording issues I have only been there a couple times and the Motherload got very good reviews there in direct comparison to the Palmer.

[entraind]

Thanks for the input 908SSP, that's the sense I get from reading reviews, but the Palmer is so much cheaper and also available used that I'm trying to figure out if the Motherload is worth twice the amount of money.

Anyone else have experience with these things?

[stark]

I use the Palmer PDI-03 into my Pod XT-Pro for Speaker Cab and Mic modeling. This sounds really good. The Palmer by itself is a great direct box, but the simulation is not about sounding like the real deal.

Adam Stark

[µ¿ z3®ø™]

i've used both the motherload and the groove tubes SEII.
both are pretty darned good but different from one another. i own the GT and it's tone controls are VERY musical.
another alternative would be to use the direct out of a THD hotplate and then feed that into Ur daw and use the speaker sim software in guitar rig or waves/PRS GTR. it works pretty good, oddly enough.
i don't think there's a really good cheap-'n-dirty solution, unfortunately.

[entraind]

Thanks Stark and µ¿ z3®ø™, I really appreciate the input.

µ¿ z3®ø™, could you explain some the of the differences between the Motherload and the SE II. Also does the Hotplate have to deliver a load to a speaker or will it work as a dummy load?

Thanks guys...Anyone else have experience with these things?

[e-z]

Also does the Hotplate have to deliver a load to a speaker or will it work as a dummy load?

It will work as a dummy load. There is a setting on the dial for it.

[entraind]

Thanks for the info e-z, I couldn't find that on their web-page...

[threm]

The Search option is working!!

http://www.thegearpage.net/board/showthread.php?t=135014&highlight=motherload

http://www.thegearpage.net/board/showthread.php?t=124396&highlight=motherload (http://www.thegearpage.net/board/showthread.php?t=124396&highlight=motherload)

[µ¿ z3®ø™]

could you explain some the of the differences between the Motherload and the SE II.

i have had two SEII for more than a decade now.
i wouldn't wanna be w/o them and use them in many different circumstances.
the SEII can also be used as an attenuator w/ 1/2 and 1/4 power switching. i think it sounds something akin to a metallic sounding SM57. now, here comes the crazy part. what we're tryna chat about here isn't always the easiest thing to clearly elucidate.
when we stand in a room and plug in and amp play there is a practically infinite # of variables at factor. the room sound and relative volume of sound as well as proximity to the amp are just things that scrape the surface. when we're talking about speaker sims and software, we're talking about sitting in front of a pair of nearfield monitors or cans. so, when i say that the SEII sounds like a metallic SM57 what i'm saying is that U get a sound not unlike that if one were to arbitrarily point a 57 to the 'normal' position. w/ the mic, if one were not happy w/ the sound could move the mic 1/4" and have a totally different sound. w/ the SEII U, of course, that is not possible. there are, however, some very musical sounding tone controls that sound like they're based on early blackface stacks. it's really quite effective at getting good sounds within context of the other instruments in the mix. in other words, by itself it's gonna sound very dry and a little tiny bit metallic with not a whole lot of 'air' surrounding it. but if U're playin' along w/ tracks, it's very easy to use those wonderful, musical tone controls on the SEII to get decent, if somewhat small and dry, mojo happening.
normally, i would never record the SEII by itself, but layer it w/ mic and direct guitar. but i would say that recording the SEII for raw amp sounds would be superior to either guitar rig or waves/PRS GTR with GTR being better at getting the sound a feel closer to a raw amp sound. there is also no recording latency involved so the experience of playin' Ur amp cranked however thru the SEII into the DAW and out thru a pair of nearfields is actually pretty satisfying. unlike the digi mod stuff, it really feels like an amp.
i tried the motherload just a couple of years ago. i was already very happy w/ my GTs, so wasn't really lookin', but we wanted to record multiple amps (more than the 2 channels i have) and so i borrowed the motherlode. it is very musical (it's all relative) as well but FAR more flexible than the SEII. i could get WAY more raw amp sounds out of it because of this. the model i tried was a two channel thingy and is not the one currently shown on their website.
when it comes to comparing the sound of the SEII and motherlode to that of a hotplate into the DAW and then into GTR or GR to use the speaker mod stuff it becomes rather complex. both programs offer a vast array of cabs and mics. in that regard, either software program offers even MORE variety of sound. the the speaker sims are (to me) NOT the weak link in the amp/speaker sim chain. if U're continuing to process the guitar sound even more i would doubt that U could tell the difference if it were the SEII, motherlode, GTR speaker sim or GR speaker sim.
neither the SEII nor motherlode is cheap. but a THD hotplate and either GTR or GR (assuming U have a DAW) is about the same price (relative) to the others. i will also say that both guitar rig and waves/PRS GTR are very fun to play w/ and that it's possible to get really outrageous, processed guitar sounds from them.

[entraind]

Thanks so much for the detailed post µ¿ z3®ø™. Very helpful stuff in making my decision and adding to the TGP collective wisdom. I agree with everything you say regarding mic placemt--you bring up some great points about the complex nature of miking an amp and all the Variables involved. I do a fair bit of work in the studio and always use 2 or three sources mixed together to get a good guitar tone. I'm hoping that whatever I come up with will be good enough to be used as one source ikn that equasion or to be used for background stuff and layered parts.

I am generally going for more raw amp tones in the projects that I do. Gernerally just guitar clean or with an analog stompbox>amp. If I am going to do something digital or processed like Line6 stuff I generally prefer to use the stompboxes and then run them into tube amps and record with tube mic pre's so by the time I get to the DAW (in my case Pro Tools) there is some rock and roll energy on the tracks as sometimes the pristine sound of a DAW can be a little to polite (to my ears) for rock and roll. So your comments regarding the PRS simulator help push me towards the Motherload or Weber Mass/Palmer direction. Thanks for the detailed response, very helpful stuff!

Threm, thanks for pointing out the obvious search option, I got so used to it being frustrating in the old interface that I completely forgot to use it. That helped point me to the Weber Mass/Palmer combo...

I'll ask my questions regarding the Weber Mass over in that topic as that combined with the Palmer PDI-09 is looking like a very viable option compared to the price point of the Motherload...

Thanks again everyone!

[gtrnstuff]

Don't rule out iso cabs. I use the Randall with extra acoustic foam wedges lining the mic compartment. Helps tame the boxiness. Move the mic in close, and roll off some low end to compensate for proximity effect. If you run an attentuator between amp and iso cab, the level in the room can be quite low and still sound good at the mic.

I have the Palmer, original GT, and have used many others. Just not the same :-) FWIW according to interview, Satriani did use cabs for some if not all of the solos. However the rhythm tracks have Palmer sound all over them.

[threm]

Threm, thanks for pointing out the obvious search option, I got so used to it being frustrating in the old interface that I completely forgot to use it. That helped point me to the Weber Mass/Palmer combo...

I was just expressing my great surprise. After the server crash I thought all old threads were gone forever.

:)

[entraind]

Don't rule out iso cabs. I use the Randall with extra acoustic foam wedges lining the mic compartment. Helps tame the boxiness. Move the mic in close, and roll off some low end to compensate for proximity effect. If you run an attentuator between amp and iso cab, the level in the room can be quite low and still sound good at the mic.

Yep, I might wait around and see if I can find the Randall iso-box used, but it would be nice to have the total silence option as well both for neighbors and for tracking rhythm tracks with drums live in the room.

FWIW according to interview, Satriani did use cabs for some if not all of the solos. However the rhythm tracks have Palmer sound all over them.

Ah, I must've misunderstood the interview I read a few months back, It's hard to imagine the leads recorded on the Palmer alone, thanks for the correction.

[entraind]

I was just expressing my great surprise. After the server crash I thought all old threads were gone forever.

:)

Indeed we are fortunate to have recovered all that stuff :)

[gtrnstuff]

Ah, I must've misunderstood the interview I read a few months back, It's hard to imagine the leads recorded on the Palmer alone, thanks for the correction.

Unless....I misunderstood and the interview I read was for a newer, unreleased album. It's vague to me now. Satch's studio tones have always suited his material, but not always my favorite. Brilliant player, though.
Hope you find a solution to your quiet recording challenges. The Palmer stuff really is good for speaker sim. EQ, and the Weber MASS is a very friendly load box. And it's a lot smaller than speakers in iso boxes.

[entraind]

When I get a second I'll go back and read the Satch article again, it was in GP maybe a year ago. I agree about his studio tones, kind of a mixed bag, I felt that way before he recorded with the Palmer so my reasoning was if it's good enough for a player of his caliber, hopefully I'll be able to get some good tones out of it...

[trucks]

I use a dummy load and a Palmer PDI-09. I was looking at the more expensive options when I came across this thread:

http://www.thegearpage.net/board/showthread.php?t=80914&highlight=palmer+pdi-09

When CliffC said, "The 09 with a Hotplate is just as good as the 04 IMO." That was enough for me. I been very pleased with the result.

[uberschall]

I use this, the Koch LB-120II Load Box-
http://i32.photobucket.com/albums/d10/uberschall/klb12024_big.jpg

http://www.koch-amps.com/products/index.cfm?fa=mainframe&product_id=&product_cat=&CFID=2641784&CFTOKEN=69279066

It's an attenuator, load box for silent recording, and speaker simulator. I use it for direct recording and live into PA. I don't know how it compares to the other units mentioned, but I think it sounds great and is a really versatile tool; I'm surprised I don't see more people talking about them. The build quality is really great, too.

Here's some snippets of reviews I found for the 1st version of the unit, which didn't have as many features:
STAGE, Nov 1999: "We used the Load Box in the recording studio with various amps miked with an SM57 and EQ on the mixer "flat". We A/B´d the result with the Load Box using attenuations up to 95% and didn´t hear hardly any difference, the tonal balance stayed intact, even the sparkling highs and the deep lows. The speaker simulation is excellent and the voicing switches are very efficient. The sound from the DI output is honest, powerful, open and above all dynamic. The overall quality of the Load Box is high; and looks, reliability, as well as sound are on a very high standard."
GUITARIST, Dec, 1999: "I tested the Load Box with my Strat and my favorite tube amp and to my great pleasure, had practically no loss of tone, even with 95% reduction. This magic box is unique because of the fact that it combines three functions: power reduction, speaker simulation and DI box, in one housing. And all three of them are excellent. I cannot image one guitar player that should not benefit from buying the Load Box."
MUSIC MAKER, Dec, 1999: "I used the Load Box between my old red Marshall and a 4x12" cabinet with Celestion Vintage 30´s: very good. Recording with the voicing switches in the "4x12" and "mic-off-axis" positions gave a better result than with my all-time-favorite (up till now), the Palmer Pdi-03. I bring a toast and congratulate Dolf Koch with this great achievement."

Mike at http://www.audionova.ca/ , the distributor, is a good guy to talk with regarding this unit. I got mine from Steve's Music Center. Check it out!

[entraind]

Ubershall, thanks for the Koch pointer, I hadn't heard of it yet and it is a very viable option. Tell me about the types of music you play and the equipment you use and the tones you get through the Koch as well as the things you like and dislike about it.

Thanks...

[entraind]

Trucks, any more input regarding the Palmer PDI-09 w/ load box you could provide, ie types of tones you are getting equipment you are using etc?

So it seems like I have a few options for good quality direct silent recording/monitoring.

Here's a list with approximate pricing

1. Palmer PDI-09 into Weber Mass--375$

2. Koch LB 120-II--400

3. Palmer PDI-03--575

4. Sequis Motherload--850

Seems like I should try out the Palmer 09 or the Koch before thinking about the more expensive ones which would require selling some gear to get...Maybe I'll find a place that has a good returns policy and buy them both...anyone else with experience with these things?

Thanks for the help everyone...

[uberschall]

Tell me about the types of music you play and the equipment you use and the tones you get through the Koch as well as the things you like and dislike about it.

My usual gear is listed in my signature below. I like to be able to get a wide variety of tones depending on the situation. The Koch delivers your amp sound pretty faithfully, and for me, it always sounds better than mic'ing, but I'm not able to crank my amp and tweak the mic placement unless I rent a studio to record. That's a big part of why I got the Koch- the convenience of the speaker simulation for home & silent recording. You have to add some room ambience to the tone, of course, but it sounds good.

You can also get good results mixing some live mic with the Koch, as long as you check the phasing. The EQ filters it has for on/off axis and cabinet type all work as expected; the 4x12 adds a little thump; the off axis makes it a little creamier.

Attenuation doesn't seem to really mess with your sound, but when I use 10% or less, I usually add prescence on the amp. The only time I noticed any wierd effects was when I had the amp cranked and was trying clean boosts in front of it. At 1%, 2% and 5%, I noticed some distortion that wasn't there at the higher attenuation levels.

Another plus, according to Koch, is that the attenuator has dedicated outputs for the different levels, which means there's no pot that can wear out. Since it has a speaker load, you can switch output levels without turning off your amp. There is an internal fan, but with my 60watt amp cranked, the box didn't even begin to get warm.

At one gig, I mic'd my amp for the first set, and Koch DI'd it for the 2nd; my musician friends in the crowd didn't notice any difference. I've used it instead of mics for every gig since. It's nice to have one less live mic, and in tight spaces, it's less likely that somebody's going to knock your mic through your amp grillecloth.

The quality of the sound from the headphone out is really dependent on what headphones you use. Koch says in the manual not that it actually sounds better with lower-quality headphones, and my experience reflects that. It sounds much better with Walkman-quality 'phones than my Sony MDR-7506's- they basically roll off the highs and lows.
The unit is nice and light, yet seems very solidly built, all the jacks and switches are tight, and it's very scratch-resistant. I throw it in the pocket on my gigbag.

Again, I haven't compared it to the other products, but I'd love to do that sometime! I was originally going to try a Palmer, but at the time, they were out of stock at the US distributor.

[trucks]

Trucks, any more input regarding the Palmer PDI-09 w/ load box you could provide, ie types of tones you are getting equipment you are using etc?


Sure, but my main point was that CliffC has a great deal of experience with using these units (as well as a great ear) so I went with his advice and years of experience.

I run an Aiken Tomcat thru the Palmer PDI-09 into a Mackie board with various outboard gear. Usually playing a Baker B1 with the entire pedalboard in the chain (sometimes just a pedal or two). The PDI-09 is set for no attenuation and the switch is on normal (my fav. Mellow and Bright are cool, too). It is an excellent direct sound which is true to the amp. A lot of people compare the PDI-09 to a mic, it seems a bit darker to me, but so simple to set up and just go. It is good and a lot better than a poorly placed mic! This setup handles high gain with ease. A touch of EQ at the board really helps.

For silent practice this is just killer. Dynamics from your amp's own voice and real tube response. You will never play another modeller.

BTW, The PDI-09 allows you to bypass an amp and plug a pedal straight into the board. That can be nice.

If you have seen them yet, there are some nice reviews over at Harmony Central.

[entraind]

At one gig, I mic'd my amp for the first set, and Koch DI'd it for the 2nd; my musician friends in the crowd didn't notice any difference. I've used it instead of mics for every gig since. It's nice to have one less live mic, and in tight spaces, it's less likely that somebody's going to knock your mic through your amp grillecloth.


Ubershall, thanks for the in-depth answer, very helpful stuff. That's a cool result you got from the test of using a mic in the first set and the Koch in the second set. Sounds like the Koch might be the way to go for me as it's nice for convienience's sake to have everything in one box...Either that or I'll get them both and a/b them I've got a month or so before I move so I can hunt around and see if a used one pops up somewhere...

[entraind]

Trucks, I really appreciate the deets on the Palmer, definitely makes it tough to choose between the two without playing them through my rig. They both seem to be quality products worth checking out. You guys both seem to be having good experiences with these two boxes so it seems that they are both worth investigating. I have read the H-C reviews of all of these products, but I find that TGP is generally a more reliable locale for gear info as everyone here seems to be as picky as I am :) So I'm very grateful for the input I've gotten from you guys...I'll let you know what I come up with, in the meantime anyone else with any experience with these things feel free to chime in....

[trucks]

Happy to help. I'm sure you will be pleased with either option. Please let us hear from you once everything is in place.

What I meant was the H-C reviews can be trusted for the Palmer. Not sure they can be trusted for the other speaker simulators or anything else! :)

[entraind]

Happy to help. I'm sure you will be pleased with either option. Please let us hear from you once everything is in place.

What I meant was the H-C reviews can be trusted for the Palmer. Not sure they can be trusted for the other speaker simulators or anything else! :)

Got it :)

I'll definitely check in when I get something give a full report....

[uberschall]

Yeah, let us know how you make out! I haven't seen any direct comparisons of the Koch to other units here on TGP, and I'm very curious.

[ebenezer]

You guys have been a great help to me. This is one of the most informative threads I have seen yet. I am a worshipleader at a church and love to crank my Star Sirius 2X12 and like many church players struggle to find a volume that not only works for me but for my sound guy. It sounds like the Koch and the Palmer-03 will suite me fine. Once again thanks for all your input. I really appreciate it as a new member!!

[entraind]

Let us know what you get Ebenezer

I ended up finding a Demeter speaker isolation box used here on Craigslist for a good price and bought that.

It sounds really good, like a miked speaker (b/c that's what it is :) ) and it will get pretty quiet, although not silent. It's pretty large (about the size of a 10 space rack case) so for gigging or moving around frequently you'd be better off with the Palmer/Koch solution. I only need it for my home studio stuff so it's good for that.

I've really liked recording 2 amps at once, one at decent bedroom volume and the one going to the demeter cranked. You can get some good sounds that way without bothering the neighbors

I'm still in the market for a Koch if I can find one used as it might be cool to blend the two sounds....