SM57s suck!! [Archive] - The Gear Page

Mook

06-12-2006, 09:16 AM

NuSkoolTone

06-12-2006, 09:25 AM

I hate SM57s......I just hate 'em. I think the sound is flat.....lacking harmonic content, plus, I feel they don't capture subtle playing......if you back off on the guitar volume, they just don't capture it. For full blast volume, they are decent, but for capturing sensitive stuff, they don't work in my opinion.....

So, what can a guitar player use for live (and studio) work??

I've heard the Sennheiser 421 is good. Ken Fischer suggested an Audio Technics one, but I forgot the model number.

I don't mind the price.....so, what's a GREAT mic for:

1) not distoring under high pressure/sound levels
2) keeping a "natural" sound by not imparting it's own "voice".
3) being able to capture all the subtleties of playing, such as very light picking or rolling back the guitar volume....

Thanks for your help!!!

Mook

Mook,

A mic is only as good as the rest of the chain. If you're using a cheap mixer and sound card going in, no matter WHAT you use will probably sound like ass. So what are you using? What style of music are you playing?

1.) If you're managing to distort a 57, you need to turn it down bro. There is a point past "Letting the tubes work" and just being stupid about volume. A 421 is a great mic, but IME has less high end and mids than a 57 on guitar.

2.)No matter what mic you use, it will impart a "voice". Choose a flavor you like.

3.)If you are looking for detail, try a condensor mic. It might end up being a little harsh on the high end though.

Greggy

06-12-2006, 09:38 AM

SM57s are outstanding, 421s are outstanding. I use both. Lots of variables involved between your fingers and your hard disk/tape. What NuSkool said.

Antero

06-12-2006, 09:58 AM

Ribbons are badass for guitars. Would hardly call them "uncolored," but it's a GOOD color, karu?

You could always take a pair of clean condensors and set them up in a room-that-doesn't-suck, turn up and see what happens. Could be cool.

loudboy

06-12-2006, 10:07 AM

Royer R-121.

I've yet to find anything that captures the true sound of the amp better than this mic.

Pricey, but I'd have to say it's the single best purchase I've made, as far as studio gear goes.

Loudboy

tedzepplin

06-12-2006, 10:11 AM

For Studio work I use a Studio Projects LSD2 large stereo diaphragm condenser microphone.

I think it sounds great for everything. Acoustic guitar, vocals, Electric guitar amp, bass guitar amp, drums.

www.studioprojectsusa.com

flicker180

06-12-2006, 10:15 AM

akg c414's are awesome also.

dave

tedzepplin

06-12-2006, 10:25 AM

For live, I've seen lots of people starting to use a Senheiser microphone.
there are two models that look the same. I don't know which one people are using.

Senheiser e906 and the e609 Silver

thesedaze

06-12-2006, 10:46 AM

jharpersj

06-12-2006, 10:58 AM

My soundguy switched fro 57's to Senheiser e609's the E609's seem to nail the exact sound I hear on stage, me Id go with them

tedzepplin

06-12-2006, 11:05 AM

The greatness in the 57's is in their workhorse characteristics, as well as the basic fact that you'll rarely ever have to EQ a 57 on an amp. Any sort of condensor will need some EQ.

AKG C414's are nice on guitars.

For recording, ever since I started using The Studio Projects stereo mic I previously listed, I rarely have to EQ anything I record.

DiazDude

06-12-2006, 11:08 AM

Just the simple fact they've been around forever and have been
used more than most any other mic proves it doesn't suck.:dude

Jim Soloway

06-12-2006, 11:12 AM

I like the SM57. I'm sure there may be better mics available, expecially when coupled with real engineering expertise, but to a recording hack like me, the 57 is incredibly easy to use and seems to sound good almost regardless of placement or amp type. Given it's hstory, I find it hard to imagine how anyone would claim that it sucks.

DANOCASTER

06-12-2006, 11:13 AM

A Royer-121 is pretty hard to beat

But get a good pre or two first. You'll need it for a Royer anyway and then you'll discover that SM57s DO NOT suck:AOK

If you can't get GREAT guitar sounds w/ a 57, don't blame the mic. It's probably something else

Bassomatic

06-12-2006, 11:13 AM

Tape sucks, too.

So do hard drives.

Unburst

06-12-2006, 11:15 AM

SM57's are extremely positionally sensitive, they can sound great to awful within an inch of movement.

Try a Senheisser e906.

pbradt

06-12-2006, 11:26 AM

Given it's hstory, I find it hard to imagine how anyone would claim that it sucks.
Uhh, it's the cook, not the kitchen.

stratovarius

06-12-2006, 11:42 AM

I don't know what I'm doing, but I get fantastic results with a BLUE Dragonfly. Compared to the Dragonfly, the SM57 sounds like it's losing about half the tone. There are countless examples of great guitar recordings using an SM57, but I don't think one could describe the SM57 as hi fidelity or transparent.

Mook

06-12-2006, 11:47 AM

Uhh, it's the cook, not the kitchen.

Everywhere I play (and my rhythym guitarist, too, for that matter), the sound guy sticks an SM57 in front of my amp (and his amp....). I don't do the sound....and, it's not my mic or mic positioning.

But, when I hear the live sound mix, it's terrible. Especially since I control MY volume/distortion with my guitar volume....so, when I roll back the guitar volume, my sound TOTALLY drops out.....so, it doesn't pick up the subtleties. If I play full blast, it's decent, but when I back off the guitar volume, it's a different story.

Next time I play at a place, I want to be able to give the sound guy MY mic for him to use.....

Mook

Don L

06-12-2006, 12:18 PM

What's the difference between Senheiser e609 and e906?

pbradt

06-12-2006, 12:32 PM

Everywhere I play (and my rhythym guitarist, too, for that matter), the sound guy sticks an SM57 in front of my amp (and his amp....). I don't do the sound....and, it's not my mic or mic positioning.

But, when I hear the live sound mix, it's terrible. Especially since I control MY volume/distortion with my guitar volume....so, when I roll back the guitar volume, my sound TOTALLY drops out.....so, it doesn't pick up the subtleties. If I play full blast, it's decent, but when I back off the guitar volume, it's a different story.

Next time I play at a place, I want to be able to give the sound guy MY mic for him to use.....

Mook

How do you know it's not the mic or positioning? How do you know it's not EQ or something else the sound guy's doing? Have you eliminated all the variables?

I've been micing guitar amps with 57s for years and never had what I considered a problem. But my question is, are you having a live sound problem or a recording problem?

Maybe you just don't like the way 57s sound, and that's fine, but there are a lot of holes in your story.

Chiba

06-12-2006, 12:58 PM

I'm with you Mook - I think they suck too. In my perfect world (Chiba's Police State), SM57 mics would be used as doorstops and stage props.

Try out the Sennheiser e609 - I actually use them for guitar cabs AND vocals! It's like taking the sock off your sound compared to an SM57. I don't think there's a better inexpensive dynamic mic on the market right now.

Just because "everybody" uses one doesn't mean it's quality kit. Just because it's an "industry standard" doesn't mean it SHOULD be.

I've NEVER liked the sound from an SM57 - live or recorded. I'm sure some engineers can get good sound from them - but I'm not running through thousands of dollars of vintage preamps and compressors and all that other stuff.

I've yet to come across a live sound engineer that refused my request to have him use my mics on stage.

--chiba

therigaletto

06-12-2006, 01:08 PM

Im going to have to agree with everyone else...SM57 are not bad mics...they arent great but if think they "suck" and "distort" that's definitly user error...We have been using the Audix i5's live and they have been working great! Very clear and pronounced

reubencox

06-12-2006, 01:09 PM

Uhh, it's the cook, not the kitchen.

Lol!!! Hey I can laugh because I've been there. I used to think SM57s were horrible. Turns out it was just me mostly. I hated 57s because I never actually had the sound I really wanted. I fooled myself into thinking I had the sound and the 57 just was crap.

I've since gotten gear that proves this (at least to me). I've used it with 57s and it sounds great. There's some quote out there about when picking an amp to record with hook it up with a 57 and if it doesn't sound good, then you probably don't have the right amp.......ahhhhh who was that. Might have been posted on TGP somewhere.

I'm a believer.
Of course all this is IMHO.

flicker180

06-12-2006, 01:12 PM

stratovarius

06-12-2006, 01:27 PM

Would it be fair to say that SM57 fails in a very useful manner? I am meaning in the same sense that a Celestion Blue fails compared to a high end audiophile speaker. Most of us don't like the sound of a guitar cabinet pointed directly at our ear. Perhaps microphone selection can compensate for this by providing a bit of muffling?

Just asking ...

stratovarius

06-12-2006, 01:33 PM

i'm looking at getting one of these. :)

dave

One thing to note - I am not recording at super high SPL's. I am not sure how that would go. Even at moderate levels I get a super hot signal from the Dragonfly. I ended up getting a Shure A15AS Switchable In-line Attenuator to compensate.

g-nem

06-12-2006, 01:35 PM

I'm not crazy about 57's either - but to each his own. Lately I've been recording my princeton with an oktava mk012 and really liking the sound. Be reasonable about volume and use your volume pad's and a good condensor will do a good job.

FWIW, lately I've been thinking about the difference between solo guitar and guitar in a mix- I've been recording solo guitar and been frustrated by the limmited frequency range of guitar- thus switching to using a condenser to get a bigger range of frequencies. But for guitar in a mix, especially distorted, having a narrow frequency range is actually kind of a plus, and thus your gear choice might be different. I have a H&K tubeman recording preamp that sounds great in a mix, but by itself it lacks bottom end.

MichaelK

06-12-2006, 01:41 PM

Tape sucks, too.

So do hard drives.

:dude :dude

Reddi-whip, too. Gawd, that crap is awful!

NuSkoolTone

06-12-2006, 01:41 PM

Everywhere I play (and my rhythym guitarist, too, for that matter), the sound guy sticks an SM57 in front of my amp (and his amp....). I don't do the sound....and, it's not my mic or mic positioning.

But, when I hear the live sound mix, it's terrible. Especially since I control MY volume/distortion with my guitar volume....so, when I roll back the guitar volume, my sound TOTALLY drops out.....so, it doesn't pick up the subtleties. If I play full blast, it's decent, but when I back off the guitar volume, it's a different story.

Next time I play at a place, I want to be able to give the sound guy MY mic for him to use.....

Mook

Is it possible the sound guy has a GATE on you guitar? That would explain a lot. If so, tell him to loosen the gate, or take it off completely.

Mook

06-12-2006, 02:09 PM

I've been micing guitar amps with 57s for years and never had what I considered a problem. But my question is, are you having a live sound problem or a recording problem?

Maybe you just don't like the way 57s sound, and that's fine, but there are a lot of holes in your story.

It's for Live sound.....and it seems to happen at EVERY venue I play at......

Here's a scenario.......I'm chunking away at a rythym part, so I turn my guitar volume knob down. I disappear in the mix, so the sound guy turns me up at the Main board. Then, when it's lead time, I raise my guitar volume......BAM! I'm WAY too loud so, then the sound guy quickly pots down my Main stage volume. I tell the sound guy before I even play that I control the volume on my guitar. But, when I back off the guitar volume to sit back in the mix, it seems like the SM57 makes me disappear completely.....

Mook

tedm

06-12-2006, 02:22 PM

What preamp are you using?

Check out the current or last months Recording magazine, there is a very simple mic cable mod you can make that may make a huge difference.

Also, try mixing it in with a condensor a few feet back, or try ribbons.

Also, if you can find one, try a 409...

I hate SM57s......I just hate 'em. I think the sound is flat.....lacking harmonic content, plus, I feel they don't capture subtle playing......if you back off on the guitar volume, they just don't capture it. For full blast volume, they are decent, but for capturing sensitive stuff, they don't work in my opinion.....

So, what can a guitar player use for live (and studio) work??

I've heard the Sennheiser 421 is good. Ken Fischer suggested an Audio Technics one, but I forgot the model number.

I don't mind the price.....so, what's a GREAT mic for:

1) not distoring under high pressure/sound levels
2) keeping a "natural" sound by not imparting it's own "voice".
3) being able to capture all the subtleties of playing, such as very light picking or rolling back the guitar volume....

Thanks for your help!!!

Mook

pbradt

06-12-2006, 02:30 PM

Denyle_Guitars

06-12-2006, 02:37 PM

What's the difference between Senheiser e609 and e906?

There's an e609, e609se and e906. The e609se has a 4khz hump in the response. The e906 has a 3 position switch to mimic the brighter e609se and the smoother e609 (black) as well as a flat response setting. I recall seeing a thread on Gearslutz recently where someone posted clips of the 3 different mics. My order of preference is the e609 (black one), the e906, then the e609se.

FWIW, Your sound guy might have more success with an e609. I wouldn't waste your $ on a md421 if the sm57 isn't working for you. While I like the md421 on amps, I also like the sm57 and I think the sm57 is a little easier to place. You can also try a re20. They also sound great on amps and have no proximity effect but the aren't cheap and I probably wouldn't gig with one when a 609 or 57 will do.

Rock Fella

06-12-2006, 02:42 PM

I hate SM57s......I just hate 'em. I think the sound is flat.....lacking harmonic content, plus, I feel they don't capture subtle playing......if you back off on the guitar volume, they just don't capture it. For full blast volume, they are decent, but for capturing sensitive stuff, they don't work in my opinion.....

So, what can a guitar player use for live (and studio) work??

I've heard the Sennheiser 421 is good. Ken Fischer suggested an Audio Technics one, but I forgot the model number.

I don't mind the price.....so, what's a GREAT mic for:

1) not distoring under high pressure/sound levels
2) keeping a "natural" sound by not imparting it's own "voice".
3) being able to capture all the subtleties of playing, such as very light picking or rolling back the guitar volume....

Thanks for your help!!!

Mook

dammit they have only been the recording industry`s standard mic for how many years and used all over the world, im contacting the majors to tell them to get those sm57`s the hell outta their studios after reading this..........................:NUTS , :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

Jimmy

subversivepinko

06-12-2006, 03:07 PM

I'm also going to have to vote for a condensor a few feet back, and mix to taste. I always thought SM57s sounded a bit "dry" (lack of detail and harmonics in the high range), and a condensor will be too "open" and "airy" by itself for a rock context, but mixing the two you really can get the best of both worlds.

That said, there are certainly some people that can work magic with the SM57, and it certainly is a workhorse.

It's also very possible that some judiciously used compression could be the answer.

thesedaze

06-12-2006, 03:11 PM

For recording, ever since I started using The Studio Projects stereo mic I previously listed, I rarely have to EQ anything I record.

Are you mixing it in to a full band mix? If you're recording just solo guitar, you can use any mic and not really have to worry about EQ (unless you're doing a lot of acoustic and electric combinations). I assume you're mixing for a full band instrumentation?

hiftbso

06-12-2006, 03:23 PM

I love a Sennheiser 421 for guitar, much better than a 57 IMO. Plus the 421 is amazing on Drums; bass drum, toms, and try one on the underside of a snare and WOW!

gkoelling

06-12-2006, 05:04 PM

Try an Audio-Technica Artist Elite, AE3000. This mic was made for high SPL applications such as guitar cabs.

It's a large diaphram cardioid condenser and can handle 148 db. It has a 10db pad and a switchable high pass filter. You can probably find it for around $250.00.

BTW, I've only had one amp an SM57 didn't sound good on and it was likely my fault. We all have different ears. Try different mics until you find the one that works for you.

Good Luck

Denyle_Guitars

06-12-2006, 07:24 PM

I've seen AT4047 used countless times on amps. Maybe that's the one that was suggesed to you. It's a studio standard maybe even more so than the sm57.

sabbath90

06-12-2006, 08:05 PM

sm57 straight on the cone with a beyer m-160 back a few feet. works really well for me. good luck.

NuSkoolTone

06-12-2006, 08:51 PM

It's also very possible that some judiciously used compression could be the answer.

Bingo. Sounds like there is a little TOO much dynamics going on here. Sounds like he's using a Non-MV amp with it set for dirt and then backs off the volume for clean. Depending on his setup, that can be a BIG difference. Too much for "Set and forget" at the board. A compressor (Limiter really) could help solve this issue.

Another option: Use a pedal for dirt, and a 2nd pedal for leads...essentially a three channel system.

Last possible option: Do a .001 cap mod on the volume pot of the guitar. This will keep the highs as you roll off the volume and you will keep all the detail. Some people don't like this sound, some love it. I personally do this for the versatility it yields.

SarasotaSlim

06-12-2006, 08:56 PM

It's for Live sound.....and it seems to happen at EVERY venue I play at......

Here's a scenario.......I'm chunking away at a rythym part, so I turn my guitar volume knob down. I disappear in the mix, so the sound guy turns me up at the Main board. Then, when it's lead time, I raise my guitar volume......BAM! I'm WAY too loud so, then the sound guy quickly pots down my Main stage volume. I tell the sound guy before I even play that I control the volume on my guitar. But, when I back off the guitar volume to sit back in the mix, it seems like the SM57 makes me disappear completely.....

Mook

No doubt about it - it's a page right out of my life - can we take up a collection to hire a hit man so we can KILL ALL THE IDIOT SOUND MEN?!
They don't know what it means to leave things alone and let you control the mix yourself. Most of these guys are used to mixing metal or something with a constant guitar volume that only goes up and down a wee bit - so when you play blues or something with a greater dynamic range they become fader jockies. As for the SM57 I've used them but prefer other things. I've been using an Audix D3 and I place it in the back of my amp with the front of the mic near the back of my speaker on the padded reverb tank. It works fine for open back amps - no mic to bump into - looks clean - etc. The D3 is transformerless and neads the input attenuator cranked - it will not distort. They have a bit of a natural bass rolloff and lend themselves to guitar-snare-leslie horn-etc. For recording I like a good condensor - Audix CX111 or ATM4050 are what I have - they all condensers work good.

JoeP

06-12-2006, 10:21 PM

I started close miking with 609's. I use the big condensers for the room, not close, and then blend the two.

tedzepplin

06-12-2006, 10:40 PM

Are you mixing it in to a full band mix? If you're recording just solo guitar, you can use any mic and not really have to worry about EQ (unless you're doing a lot of acoustic and electric combinations). I assume you're mixing for a full band instrumentation?

my current band/project is guitar, bass, and drums. a Link Wray kind of sound.

My older band project was one, sometimes two acoustic guitars and a cymbal and snare and two vocalists.

So my music might not be as dense as other bands with two guitars, keyboards, lots of singing.

But I still feel like I probably wouldn't need much EQing with that mic. Maybe boost a little low end 1 or 2 db on the drum kit, maybe 2 db in the midrange for vocals, and maybe 2 db in the high range for acoustic guitars.

But still that's tons less EQ than when I used to record with a Sure 58 and 57.

Also I try to write my music so the instruments don't step all over each other with lots of notes competeing for the same frequencies.

Jackie Treehorn

06-13-2006, 12:10 AM

I like the SM57 and prefer it to the 421 or M160. However, I think the Shure 545SD sounds a touch less boxy and more open than the 57. It's the same basic tone. The 545sd is essentially a 57 with an on/off switch and a different transformer which can be reversed in the body to provide a high impedance output, too.

Here's the 57

http://www.shure.com/stellent/groups/public/@gms_gmi_web_us/documents/web_resource/site_img_us_rc_sm57_large.gif

Here's the 545SD

http://www.shure.com/stellent/groups/public/@gms_gmi_web_us/documents/web_resource/site_img_us_rc_545sd_large.gif

johnrea_77

06-13-2006, 12:23 AM

I won't go as far as to blast the venerable SM57. I used to use one on my guitar cab. Not these days. I am using an Audio Technica ATM29HE and I am very pleased with the sound. No complaints from the soundman or anyone else!

Antero

06-13-2006, 12:26 AM

Steve Albini says... (http://electrical.com/item.php?page=1&pic=pictures/1.jpg)

GuitslingerTim

06-13-2006, 08:31 AM

My SM57 is magic. I place it right in front of the speaker dead center next to the grill cloth. Add a little compression to defeat clipping and I'm good to go.

Mook

06-13-2006, 10:44 AM

ModEdit: Let's all dial it back a little bit, OK? --chiba

clothwiring

06-13-2006, 10:52 AM

Mook, probably been already stated, but check out your signal path, make sure something else isn't the culprit. I have 2 57s and use one for micing my guitar at gigs all the time. I've used it for drums, guitars and in a few spots vocals. Good luck, if you do it right you'll fall in love with it.

loudboy

06-13-2006, 11:36 AM

It's for Live sound.....and it seems to happen at EVERY venue I play at......

Here's a scenario.......I'm chunking away at a rythym part, so I turn my guitar volume knob down. I disappear in the mix, so the sound guy turns me up at the Main board. Then, when it's lead time, I raise my guitar volume......BAM! I'm WAY too loud so, then the sound guy quickly pots down my Main stage volume. I tell the sound guy before I even play that I control the volume on my guitar. But, when I back off the guitar volume to sit back in the mix, it seems like the SM57 makes me disappear completely.....

Mook

It's pretty obvious that when you turn your guitar down, it gets too quiet. Of course he's going to bring it up... How does your guitar sound in your (the band's) onstage mix? If a band sounds good on stage and can play balanced, it's very easy to get a good FOH mix. I find it a little hard to believe that A: Every soundman in every club you play sucks, and B: That a 57 fails to pick up the dynamics at a slightly lower volume.

It sounds to me like you need to work on getting your rig settings a little more together. It's fairly easy to use a few pedals so you can get a good crunch and clean rhythm, and a nice boost for solos. Then the soundman can set it and forget it.

Also, how are you referencing what's going on in FOH? Board tapes, or stuff from a camcorder? Board tapes are not even close to what you're hearing, unless you're playing stadiums. It's also very difficult to tell what a mix sounds like if you go out front while you're actually playing, if you have a wireless setup. It skews your perception.

You can try different mics, but I don't think it's going to be much different than what you're using. Slightly diferent tonality maybe, but the real problem lies in the fact that you're using too much dynamic range in your playing, and the rest of the band isn't.

Loudboy

TheArchitect

06-13-2006, 12:20 PM

interesting that that piece of shit mic has been on countless recordings and live shows that most folks go ga ga when reminiscing

yes it is 2006 and technology reigns supreme but when all else fails the 57 is to recording as the sawhorse is to carpentry...there when you need it

I know who Albini is and what he's done but sometimes he says things that make very little sense.

tedm

06-13-2006, 12:43 PM

Mook

06-13-2006, 12:54 PM

I highly recommend you carry your own modified cable with you with mods from Recording magazine DIY page. Even more so if the mic pre/mixer you go through varies from gig to gig. If it's always the same pre, let me know and I'll do some digging on impedances.

Removed. --chiba

Tedm,

Thanks. And thanks to all who have helped ModEdit - I'm removing all references to the angry post. --chiba

Thanks again, all!

Mook

MichaelK

06-13-2006, 06:08 PM

Here's a scenario.......I'm chunking away at a rythym part, so I turn my guitar volume knob down. I disappear in the mix, so the sound guy turns me up at the Main board. Then, when it's lead time, I raise my guitar volume......BAM! I'm WAY too loud so, then the sound guy quickly pots down my Main stage volume. I tell the sound guy before I even play that I control the volume on my guitar. But, when I back off the guitar volume to sit back in the mix, it seems like the SM57 makes me disappear completely...

I missed this before. I'm kind of amazed.

The reason you hate the SM57 is because after you start off at a good level, it goes back and forth between making you too loud and too soft.

It does this trick only when you move your volume knob.

The MIC does this...

OK...

You don't need a different mic. You don't need a different preamp. You don't need a different cable. You don't need a compressor. You don't need a different sound man. None of these things will solve your problem.

You need to practice your instrument. You need to learn how to use your volume knob. I'm REALLY holding back here, just trust me on this. Good luck.

MichaelK

06-13-2006, 06:13 PM

No doubt about it - it's a page right out of my life - can we take up a collection to hire a hit man so we can KILL ALL THE IDIOT SOUND MEN?!

Funny how certain people seem to have to deal with "idiot" sound men all the time, while others seem to have no such problem.

Mook

06-13-2006, 06:53 PM

You don't need a different mic. You don't need a different preamp. You don't need a different cable. You don't need a compressor. You don't need a different sound man. None of these things will solve your problem.

You need to practice your instrument. You need to learn how to use your volume knob. I'm REALLY holding back here, just trust me on this. Good luck.

Sorry,

Gotta disagree here......I've been using the guitar volume/tone knobs on my guitars for well over 7 years and I know how to use a non-master volume amp. I haven't had a channel switching amp for well over 7 years.

My stage volume is fine. I can hear myself traverse between clean, semi-dirty, dirty, and full on lead effortlessly......and my band, knows how to change dynamics, too (bring the volume down during verses, louder on choruses). I very much have to disagree..........

Even when I record at home, I've gotten MUCH better results when NOT using a SM57...........I don't think it works for me and my style of playing.......

Mook

Spydog1985

06-13-2006, 07:43 PM

[right]

Sorry,

Gotta disagree here......I've been using the guitar volume/tone knobs on my guitars for well over 7 years and I know how to use a non-master volume amp. I haven't had a channel switching amp for well over 7 years.

My stage volume is fine. I can hear myself traverse between clean, semi-dirty, dirty, and full on lead effortlessly......and my band, knows how to change dynamics, too (bring the volume down during verses, louder on choruses). I very much have to disagree..........

Even when I record at home, I've gotten MUCH better results when NOT using a SM57...........I don't think it works for me and my style of playing.......

Mook

I went through the same thing, and i know what you're talking about exactly, there even may be a thread i posted with this same Question at HC.com...

Simple answer: It's not the mic:angel

Long Answer: The mic is VERY picky about placement AND what it works with. 1)It needs to be placed exactly correct, or it can sound not so good, unlike a condenser that can be pretty much thrown almost anywhere and still sound "open" or "good" (like how Taylor guitars sound "good" by themselves, but don't work well in a mix bc they're so open, crisp, bright, thin, too much presence etc.). 2)The PREAMP makes a HUGE difference. If it's live, odds are they're using board preamps, and if it's you at home, odds are you are too, or a crap sound card. Buying a nice preamp (minimum $450 or so (RNP, Grace 101, etc) will bring out the beauty and crispness to the mic, and not make it sound so middy, dead, lifeless, etc. also 3)Unless you're a GREAT engineer, you'll need to do a bit of EQ'ing sometimes on the recording. If you're lucky, then you won't, but it's rare to get the perfect sound immediately, unless you're a pro engineer, so sometimes just a bit of EQ goes a long way.

There's probably a 4), 5), and 6), but i think you get the idea...

This should answer most of your questions, and i need to go watch the Mav's game:D

-John

MichaelK

06-14-2006, 02:20 AM

Gotta disagree here......I've been using the guitar volume/tone knobs on my guitars for well over 7 years

You just finished telling us that the sound man turns you up in the mix because you're too soft, then when you turn up your volume you're too loud. So he turns you down because you're too loud, and when you back down you're too soft again. So he turns you up again.

And this happens every time you play live, in "every venue."

Doesn't this tell you something?

bbocaner

06-14-2006, 02:39 AM

Hey Kevin. I've got some MD-421s if you wanna borrow one to try it out. I don't think you'd like it, though. It has more bass than a SM57 and sounds a little more scooped out -- less present -- tubby, even

For live sound, I don't think I'd try a condensor -- delicate, not good with high SPLs, and the sensitivity would make them prone to feedback.

I've heard great things about the royer r-121 for recording, but I wouldn't trust that it would work well with the variety of preamps you are likely to see on the desks at venues. Perhaps the active r-122, but you'd need phantom power which you can't always count on in a live situation.

audix has some mics that are well respected for live sound use, but they kind of have a rep as being more useful for a more "modern" sound, which doesn't really sound like you! :)

I know you really have put a lot of thought into your cabs and speakers, but have you thought about going direct with a speaker simulator? It'd give you a lot more of the nuance it sounds like you want. I've heard good buzz about the palmer PDI-09.

stelligan

06-14-2006, 05:29 AM

johneeeveee

06-14-2006, 08:34 AM

Mook,

I have begun to use the Audix i5 mic live. An inexpensive dynamic mic that seems to be fuller overall than a 57 and less hyped in the upper mids. It would be cheap to try and is built like a tank. Beware. It is still much like a 57.....

here here... i agree wholeheartedly. the i5 is one of the best bang for buck mics to come out in a long time. i also just happen to like 57's. they have a growl when slammed that is pretty rock n roll. the i5 doesn't do that sort of thing but is much smoother. larry crane did a review in tapeop on the i5 that you can probably find online, and he raved about it. i know that he personally doesn't dig the 57's so much anymore, but they definitely have thier place... "suck" is such a strong word:)
peace - jv

glahnb

06-14-2006, 08:50 AM

I don't liike SM57's either, I prefer the Audix D3 for guitar amps.

SarasotaSlim

06-14-2006, 09:41 AM

I don't liike SM57's either, I prefer the Audix D3 for guitar amps.
Me too. If you have an open back Fender style amp - try my goofy method for live mike placement. Lay the mic inside the amp on the bottom - on the reverb bag - next to the back baffle thingy - with the front of the mic near the back of the speaker. For club work this is a great method for several reasons. It works well. No more mic out front to bump into on small stages. It looks clean. Less for the pinhead volume nazis to be afraid of.

Funny how certain people seem to have to deal with "idiot" sound men all the time, while others seem to have no such problem.

I'll repeat part of my previous post in hopes that maybe you can see the humor here.

...No doubt about it - it's a page right out of my life - can we take up a collection to hire a hit man so we can KILL ALL THE IDIOT SOUND MEN?!
They don't know what it means to leave things alone and let you control the mix yourself. Most of these guys are used to mixing metal or something with a constant guitar volume that only goes up and down a wee bit - so when you play blues or something with a greater dynamic range they become fader jockies. As for the SM57 I've used them but prefer other things...

Chiba

06-14-2006, 09:41 AM

Long Answer: The mic is VERY picky about placement AND what it works with.
To me, that's a sucky mic.

If you had a car that was very picky about what gas you put into it and what roads you drove it on, would you like that car? My guess is - no matter how many other people said it was a great car and that there were a million of them on the road - to YOU it would be a sucky car.

--chiba

loudboy

06-14-2006, 09:59 AM

I've heard great things about the royer r-121 for recording, but I wouldn't trust that it would work well with the variety of preamps you are likely to see on the desks at venues. Perhaps the active r-122, but you'd need phantom power which you can't always count on in a live situation.

You'd have to be insane to bring a $1,500 mic, which will break if you look at it the wrong way, to a bar gig. Just sayin'...

The ribbon on my R-121 got taken out when the guitarist unplugged his guitar to tune up, w/the amp still on. The loud POP, the puff of air, the ribbon, she's a gone... <g> I now use a foam slide-over windsock on it and it's not a problem anymore.

I'd never dream of taking it to a club, tho.

Loudboy

MichaelK

06-14-2006, 10:21 AM

Just one more comment...

This past year I've been using a e609 onstage for guitar cabs because it is so mindlessly simple to set up and leave in place without worrying about it. A little stand with a 57 is easily kicked accidentally on a crowded stage. The e609 is not an expensive mic, so even if/when you rule out the mic as the culprit it's worth having.

MichaelK

06-14-2006, 10:29 AM

You'd have to be insane to bring a $1,500 mic, which will break if you look at it the wrong way, to a bar gig.

I have to agree. I only use one mic at gigs that cost over $100, that's an AT-4054, a hand-held condenser for vocals. And ONLY for myself or my wife, never for anyone else. The rest are 57s, 58s, and the e609.

I once used Earthworks SR77s on a piano for a visiting singer and classical pianist, but that's not my typical gig. Oh yeah, the singer got a 58. :D

Mook

06-14-2006, 10:57 AM

You just finished telling us that the sound man turns you up in the mix because you're too soft, then when you turn up your volume you're too loud. So he turns you down because you're too loud, and when you back down you're too soft again. So he turns you up again.

And this happens every time you play live, in "every venue."

Doesn't this tell you something?

Well.....I think we're getting to something here, becuase a few people are talking about mic placement.

At one club, this soundman simply take the mic and drapes it over my cab with the cord. At another club, the sound man sets the mic back about a foot.

HOW DO I PLACE THIS MIC??

Can someone draw a picture?

Mook

Ed DeGenaro

06-14-2006, 12:19 PM

Well.....I think we're getting to something here, becuase a few people are talking about mic placement.

At one club, this soundman simply take the mic and drapes it over my cab with the cord. At another club, the sound man sets the mic back about a foot.

HOW DO I PLACE THIS MIC??

Can someone draw a picture?

Mook
I wasn't gonna geet into this thread but what the hey...

A 57 is about the easiest mic the get a decent tone with quick...assuming you're having some specific things going. One thing is a Vintage 30 or GB when it comes to speakers. Anything lese and you'll be moving the mic for a half an hour...too brittle, too woofy, etc...
On the right speaker you can literally throw it in the vicinity and get away with it.
Plus since it has a huge proximity hump if you get too close to the speaker you get a bump at around 100-120 Hz.

Now I'm a big fan of a 57 when i use a V30. But with say an H30 it doesn't work for me. That's where the 609 or even beta 56 comes out.

As for mic placement...
Do this at home or in your rhearsal studio. Put on head phones crank the gain on the amp so you have it hissing a bit. Stick the mic in front of the peaker and listen to the hiss. Where the hiss is the loudest is where you park the mic. Take some electrical tape and mark a square on the grill, now you have the same spot always.

As for sound guys and levels..don't tell the guy that you control the volume on the guitar. That doesn't mean jack to anybody but a guitarist.
Tell him to set your volume and leave it, explain to him that there will be some sever level changes on your part that since he doesn't know the when and where he doesn't need to compensate. Demo those changes to him, if the range is just too wide have him limit or compress the channel. Done.

Remember this really isn't rocket science.

MichaelK

06-14-2006, 12:48 PM

At one club, this soundman simply take the mic and drapes it over my cab with the cord. At another club, the sound man sets the mic back about a foot.

Both wrong - in a live room it should be about 1-2" from the grill, facing the grill. Ideally aimed right at the seam where the dust cap meets the cone.

You drape a 609 over the top.

Spydog1985

06-14-2006, 02:38 PM

To me, that's a sucky mic.

If you had a car that was very picky about what gas you put into it and what roads you drove it on, would you like that car? My guess is - no matter how many other people said it was a great car and that there were a million of them on the road - to YOU it would be a sucky car.

--chiba

Doesn't EVERY high end, performance car/truck/vehicle take Super Unleaded instead of regular?

haha.:p not a very good point there...If everything should be "set and forget" we'd all be playing Tom Delonge Strats through Crate Blue Voodoo's....:crazyguy

pbradt

06-14-2006, 02:49 PM

Not me. I'd be playing a Tele through a Tweed amp appropriate to the venue with a 57 in it...oh wait...

melondaoust

06-14-2006, 02:50 PM

This article has some tips on how to use a 57 properly for recording

http://bruceamiller.us/bamaudioschool/audio_course/02_rec_elgtr.html

minesaguinness

06-14-2006, 07:37 PM

I use SM57 for live and studio and don't have any reason yet to use anything else - does both jobs no worries.
Cheers
Brian

mickey69

06-15-2006, 12:39 PM

I hate SM57s......I just hate 'em. I think the sound is flat.....lacking harmonic content, plus, I feel they don't capture subtle playing......if you back off on the guitar volume, they just don't capture it. For full blast volume, they are decent, but for capturing sensitive stuff, they don't work in my opinion.....

So, what can a guitar player use for live (and studio) work??

I've heard the Sennheiser 421 is good. Ken Fischer suggested an Audio Technics one, but I forgot the model number.

I don't mind the price.....so, what's a GREAT mic for:

1) not distoring under high pressure/sound levels
2) keeping a "natural" sound by not imparting it's own "voice".
3) being able to capture all the subtleties of playing, such as very light picking or rolling back the guitar volume....

Thanks for your help!!!

Mook

Also, depending on the style you're going for, sticking the mic right up on the grill isn't always the best way to go. I've read about ken scott, and geoff emerick using neuman's back about 6-12" from the amp. they said they never got beatles or ronson tones with the mic up close. i've read page put them back as well.

sears

06-15-2006, 01:07 PM

This article has some tips on how to use a 57 properly for recording

http://bruceamiller.us/bamaudioschool/audio_course/02_rec_elgtr.html

Thank you. Those are good ideas for any mic.

SarasotaSlim

06-15-2006, 01:26 PM

Both wrong - in a live room it should be about 1-2" from the grill, facing the grill. Ideally aimed right at the seam where the dust cap meets the cone.

You drape a 609 over the top.

YES - now we're getting somewhere. Any "soundman" who drapes a 57 over the front of the amp and hangs it there should DIE! Let's go back and take up another collection for that hit man. Believe it or not - there are way too many bad sound men in the world... Knob twisting - echo making - fader riding - channel muting (my fav) - monitor squealing (somebody stop me) - room rumbling - POW! I just exploded - see it all on the 6 o'clock news!:Devil

Look into the background of a soundman who does a good job and you will probably find that they have done a wide variety of work. My favorite ones are able to do live jazz bands with a wide dynamic range as well as old school rock with loud stage volume and make them both sound good with minimal squealing and a happy face.:)

minesaguinness

06-15-2006, 01:33 PM

This is my live rig - SM 57 in "mini" mic stand - generally fairly close - since too risky getting the thing kicked around. Usually angled to some degree.
Cheers
Brian
http://i33.photobucket.com/albums/d58/bgarrett_uk/st%20kew%2020060429/IMG_3072.jpg

waxnsteel

06-15-2006, 08:43 PM

Doesn't EVERY high end, performance car/truck/vehicle take Super Unleaded instead of regular?

haha.:p not a very good point there...If everything should be "set and forget" we'd all be playing Tom Delonge Strats through Crate Blue Voodoo's....:crazyguy

Unless the soundman comes to rehearsals, and knows what everyone is going to be doing, it should be set and forget.

bbocaner

06-15-2006, 09:43 PM

keep in mind mic placement for recording and live use is not always the same -- mic choice and placement for clean tones vs. distorted tones is not always the same.

live mic placement is a comprimise. you've pretty much got to use a dynamic mic shoved up real close to the amp. sm57 may or may not be the perfect mic for any sound, but it is a reasonable comprimse to do a little of everything.

a mic hanging by its cord in front of the cab means that the soundman is lazy or ran out of stands.

a live soundman SHOULD be riding the faders to make sure the guitar always mixes well based on what's needed in the particular song that is being performed, and changes to timbre based on changes in amp settings, FX, and even backing off the volume knob on the guitar are SUPPOSED to alter the mix, and should either be compensated for at the desk or by sympathetic playing from the rest of the band. There isn't a magic mic that's going to make this requirement go away. It sounds like more than anything Mook is the victim of bad engineers.

Strat-o-Ck

06-15-2006, 10:10 PM

Spydog1985

06-16-2006, 12:14 AM

Unless the soundman comes to rehearsals, and knows what everyone is going to be doing, it should be set and forget.

Sweet. So unless a soundman knows how to do sound, then everything should be made for idiots to use. Awesome.:AOK

Man, this might just be the stupidest argument i've ever responded to.

:jo -John

minesaguinness

06-16-2006, 04:43 AM

[quote=bbocaner]keep in mind mic placement for recording and live use is not always the same -- mic choice and placement for clean tones vs. distorted tones is not always the same.

live mic placement is a comprimise. you've pretty much got to use a dynamic mic shoved up real close to the amp. sm57 may or may not be the perfect mic for any sound, but it is a reasonable comprimse to do a little of everything.

a mic hanging by its cord in front of the cab means that the soundman is lazy or ran out of stands.
quote]

Agree
In Studio I use same mics but about 12" to 14" back off the cab. Because I have a mix of V30 and G12H in the cab we mic both and pan them - you obviously need to take care with what you do with the two channels by way of mixing - but generally pan left/right and we get awesome tones.... for dirty the V30 is allowed to dominate and for clean the G12H is allowed to dominate.

But in a live situation no one is going to be doing with moving mics around going from clean to dirty etc especially when that's happening many times in a tune - the SM57 is an industry standard mic for an industry standard application - it gets the job done. It may well not be the best but its the best fallback option there is. Care does need to be taken with where the mic is pointing on the speaker cone surface to maintain consistency of sound from one gig to another.

Cheers
Brian

Brian D

06-16-2006, 06:24 AM

a live soundman SHOULD be riding the faders to make sure the guitar always mixes well based on what's needed in the particular song that is being performed, and changes to timbre based on changes in amp settings, FX, and even backing off the volume knob on the guitar are SUPPOSED to alter the mix, and should either be compensated for at the desk or by sympathetic playing from the rest of the band.I agree. If not, then why even have a soundman to begin with?

And good point about the band being equally responsible for the mix.

SarasotaSlim

06-16-2006, 09:18 AM

Interesting perspectives here. The armchair quarterback syndrome. Clapton regularly hangs a mic over the top of his amp cabinets to mic them on stage. Entire albums have been recorded with SM57's. There is no 'best' or 'right' way to do it, there are just different ways to do it. You figure out what works for you and go with it.

This comes from years of live gigging and discovering what works and what can be problematic. Many of us work with little blues combos with small PA's and harp players. Many of these harp guys have little champ sized amps that have to be miced to be heard.

Try this experiment.
Hang the 57 over the top of a small harp rig and try to get a usable volume level out of a PA on a stick. You will get some volume but it will be thin and prone to feedback. Now put the same mic at the same setting on a stand and point the thing dead into the front of the speaker. Presto-changeo you get VOLUME and depth and the true tone of the amp.

Clapton can get away with hanging a 57 over the front of his amp for several reasons...
1. It's probably at least a 50watt amp on 10 moving some air.
2. They have a MASSIVE PA to push it with.
3. Maybe they like that thin sound.
4. It was a long time ago and maybe they just hadn't figured it out yet.

waxnsteel

06-16-2006, 02:03 PM

Sweet. So unless a soundman knows how to do sound, then everything should be made for idiots to use. Awesome.:AOK

Man, this might just be the stupidest argument i've ever responded to.

:jo -John

Most sound guys DON'T know how to do sound. Some that do aren't attentive enough. That's my point. You're entitled to your opinion about stupid.

MichaelK

06-16-2006, 03:21 PM

Most sound guys DON'T know how to do sound...

...You're entitled to your opinion about stupid.

Hoo boy... :jo

elambo

06-16-2006, 08:42 PM

:jo:jo

matte

06-17-2006, 09:24 AM

rwe333

06-17-2006, 09:28 AM

never an issue for me. it's either the 609 or 57 for me for speaker mic'ing. mic positioning is an artform/it's a poor craftsman who blames his tools. ron used 57s for bad brains, paul rodgers has been known to use one and he doesn't suck.

There ya go...

Neill

06-17-2006, 03:02 PM

it's a poor craftsman who blames his tools

true enough. but a bosch is better than a black and decker

Bassomatic

06-17-2006, 03:58 PM

true enough. but a bosch is better than a black and decker

Define "better".

(j/k):worried

pbradt

06-17-2006, 05:07 PM

true enough. but a bosch is better than a black and decker

For me, the SM57 IS the Bosch. Just a great mic for recording OR live sound. If I could only have one mic, it'd be a 57.

Antero

06-19-2006, 04:05 AM

interesting that that piece of shit mic has been on countless recordings and live shows that most folks go ga ga when reminiscingThat basically amounts to "Fender and Gibson are the best because look how many famous people used them."

There's a big difference between "This has been used on awesome things" and "This is actually the best device." I mean, SM57s are all over because they're cheap, well known, versatile, and don't break - not because they're necessarily the best choice for any given source.

Those are useful attributes, and are going to justify its use in a lot of cases. If you're a soundman, frinstance, it's good to have something you can throw up against anything and get sound out of, and that the band can kick around. If your goal is The Best Possible Tone, though, there are other places you can turn.

Besides, in the end it all comes down to the performance, neh? You can be as lo-fi as heck and still wow the world if what you're putting to track is good enough. Lots of lousy gear has been used on great albums, because the gear doesn't matter all that much. Heck, one band that I love recorded a whole album with a stock Squier P-Bass. Even great records can have lesser sounds on 'em, too.

brad347

06-19-2006, 09:47 AM

I also agree. I don't have the patience to wade through this entire thread to see if it's been mentioned but my all-time favorite guitar mics are

Beyer M160
Coles 4038
Neumann tube 47

Guitar is an instrument. Time we started micing it like one... then again I don't do a lot of heavy rock stuff.

The beyer is the most cost-effective solution for my money. I LOVE it on a guitar amp, clean or dirty.

Shark Diver

06-27-2006, 04:36 AM

Forget mics. Palmer DIs. Your sound is much more consitent from gig to gig. I run mine through a Rane eq then to the sound man. I used load boxes in setting the eq so the guitar speakers wouldn't mask the PA sound. Sounds just like my rig and when I run back into the guitar cabs it is fantastic.

brad347

06-27-2006, 06:12 AM

PS i've had a number of "great" engineers mic my guitar amp with SM57s and it always gets changed. Maybe up on the speaker cone of a Marshall it works but I do a lot of clean sounds and it just loses so much detail in the "sparkle." There are always exceptions, I'm sure there are some situations where I could get with it, but as far as dynamic mics on the amp the e609 I like a little bit better.