Hi. I'm Randy and I like jazz. Wanna trade lessons?

[randy morser]

Blues in Bb...I may just way Bb or Eb or whatever. I mostly leave the extensions to you. The fifth bar will be an Eb7 in this case. Lot's of times that will be followed by an E diminished in the next bar and a Bb again in the bar after that and a G7 in the bar after that. Instead of the E diminished, try an E half diminished (m7b5) for two beats and an A 7 for the last two beats in that measure. Then play a Dm7 or a Dm7b5 in the next measure... bringing us to the G7 in the following measure.

we start with a simple:
Bb |Eb | Bb | Bb |
Eb |Edim | Bb | G7 |
Cm | F7 |Dm7, G7| Cm7, F7 |

and the few simple substitutions:
Bb |Eb, Edim | Bb | Bb7 |
Eb |Em7b5, A7 | Dm7 | G7 |
Cm7 | F7 |Dm7, G7| Cm7, F7 |

The Em7b5 to A7 functions the same way the E diminished does and can also be used in the second bar. If you want to get carried away, you could even try this next bit. (I'll flesh out the rest a little more on this one too) Where you see two chords in a measure,they get two beats each. If there are four chords in a measure, they get a beat each:

| Bb | Em7b5, A7 | Bb | Fm9, Bb7b5 |
| Eb9 | Em7b5, A7 | Dm7, Dm7b5/Ab | G7+5, G7 |
| Dbm9, Ab7+5b9 | Cm9, G7+5b9 |(bars 11 and 12 on next line)
| Em7b5, A7, Dm7b5, G7+5 | Dbm9, Ab7+5b9,Cm9, G7+5b9 |

This is one of the many ways we can augment the blues progression to give us a few more changes to work with that we don't usually get to see in a blues. There are a million possible variations and they can all be pretty fun. You can use the just parts that you like, too. You don't have to use the whole prog.

[ivers]

Cool, some very nice ideas there. Thanks, man!

[gennation]

Here's my "Common Sounds Found in Jazz" tutorial...

http://lessons.mikedodge.com/lessons/Jazz1/Jazz1TOC.htm

Read the "essential needs" as it has the lick to the Power Tab audio/tab/notation.

It'll take you through: Diatonic subs, b5 subs, Diminished subs, arps, Modes, Melodic Minor Modes, Whole-tone scale, W-H tone scale, H-W tone scale, lifting other melodies from tunes and placing them in your jazz tunes, it covers a number of scales used, etc...

It's pretty comprehensive with a lot of explanation too. BUT...it's all donw with in the context of a Jazz song...not excerpts, or idea's...but a song.

Enjoy.

[ivers]

Keep em coming, guys!

For a major or minor jazz blues, in for example Bb, I like to now and again explore the tension between Fm7 (substitute for Bb7) and its dominant C7, before I direct my phrasing towards some kind of altered Bb7 sound, leading towards the subdominant, Eb7 (or Ebm7, if minor blues).

Another thing I like, rather than play the half/whole-diminished scale, is to use that scale as a fundament for creating triads. Pretty much every triad found there can be usable, for my ears at least.

I also have a kind of 'lick' I like when leading to the subdominant from the tonic, or from dominant to the tonic, which is based on the intervals 1, b2, b5, b7, and can be played pretty straightforwards over two octaves, and sound cool. In G, where G is tonic, and we're leading to C, the subdominant, this would be G, Ab, Db, F, etc (up an octave).

Hope at least one person understood anything of my ramblings!

[Old Tele man]

...chordal jazz player here.

...maybe there's enough interest to start a posting on "turnarounds, chordal cliches, and run-downs" and maybe we could call it the "U-Turns Page"?

[randy morser]

Here's my "Common Sounds Found in Jazz" tutorial...

http://lessons.mikedodge.com/lessons/Jazz1/Jazz1TOC.htm

Read the "essential needs" as it has the lick to the Power Tab audio/tab/notation.

It'll take you through: Diatonic subs, b5 subs, Diminished subs, arps, Modes, Melodic Minor Modes, Whole-tone scale, W-H tone scale, H-W tone scale, lifting other melodies from tunes and placing them in your jazz tunes, it covers a number of scales used, etc...

It's pretty comprehensive with a lot of explanation too. BUT...it's all donw with in the context of a Jazz song...not excerpts, or idea's...but a song.

Enjoy.

wow. there's a lot there! thanks.

[randy morser]

...chordal jazz player here.

...maybe there's enough interest to start a posting on "turnarounds, chordal cliches, and run-downs" and maybe we could call it the "U-Turns Page"?

I love extended tag sections. I love Sonny Stitt's actics on tags. A "nice" turn-around in the key of G is from Nice Work if You Can Get It a la B7+5, E9+5, A7+5, D9+5. The diagrammed voicings would help, but I'm not sure how we could draw them. Oh well.

I also like the tag that uses IV instead of ii and follows with the #IV diminished and then the I with the 5th in the bass to the VI. And then similarly there's the ii, #ii diminished, iii, VI. Again, IV instead of ii to iv to iii to biii diminished to ii, V, to #VI to VI is another one I like, though the first part can sound a little show-tuny in the wrong setting. That one works as an intro too.

Hey... what's chordal jazz, anyway?

[Old Tele man]

...chordal jazz is simultaneously playing the melody 'out' of the chords, few if any, single note runs...almost a new chord with each stroke.

...here's my initial cut at that "Nice Work..." 'back-cycle' turnaround example you mentioned (on treble strings):

B7+5
E|--7-
B|--8-
G|--8-
D|--7-
A|--x-
E|--x-

E9+5
E|--8-
B|--7-
G|--7-
D|--6-
A|--7-
E|--x-

A7+5
E|--5-
B|--6-
G|--6-
D|--5-
A|--x-
E|--x-

D9+5
E|--6-
B|--5-
G|--5-
D|--4-
A|--5-
E|--x-

to GM7 and then GM6 (continues the 1/2-step back-stepping on treble string, ie: B,C then A,Bb, then Gb,G)

...for "rhythm" voiced chords I'd probably use different fingering, like this:

B7+5
E|-x-
B|-8-
G|-8-
D|-7-
A|-x-
E|-7- (B)

E9-5
E|-x-
B|-7-
G|-7-
D|-6-
A|-x-
E|-6- (Bb)

A7+5
E|-x-
B|-6-
G|-6-
D|-5-
A|-x-
E|-5- (A)

D9-5
E|-x-
B|-5-
G|-5-
D|-4-
A|-x-
E|-4- (Ab)

GM7
E|-x-
B|-3-
G|-4-
D|-4-
A|-x-
E|-3- (G)

...notice the use of -5 vs. +5 so as to achieve a chromatically descending bass line from B down to G.

[jdiesel77]

tele any chance u have audio clips for chordal playing or for this

[Old Tele man]

...as my college professor used to say: "...left as an exercise for the student."

...sorry, got nothing here (work), but here's an example:


Here’s an example of chordal jazz, the first four bars of “I LEFT MY HEART IN SAN FRANCISCO”:

.....I...left..my.....heart...............in..San. .Fran- cis- co.

...F13-9..Cm7..Eb°...BbM7...Eb9-5...Dm11..Gm7.Gm9..C#°...Cm7..Gb7-5..

E|--------------3--|---1------1---|---1----3---5----6--|--3----------|
B|---3-----4----2--|---3------2---|---1----3---3----5--|--4----1-----|
G|---2-----3----3--|---2------0---|---0----3---3----6--|--3----3-----|
D|---1-----5----2--|---3------1---|---0----3---3----5--|--5----2-----|
A|---------3-------|---1------0---|---0----5---5-------|--3----------|
E|---2-------------|--------------|---1----3---3-------|-------2-----|


...the “trick” is to place the emphasis on the LAST note of each chord, ie: the “melody” note.

[randy morser]

This is how my teacher used to teach me songs too. He'd write a different chord inversion for every note. Some times he'd have voices moving in the middle melody note too. We always called it chord melody. He studied with chuck wayne for a decade, so my approach sounds very 1940s, 50s unless I make a conscious effort to use more modern voicings.

[Old Tele man]

...I've heard it (chordal jazz) described as "...Bill Evans (piano) voicings for guitars."

[gennation]

Joe Pass does some serious "chordal Jazz" as does Tal Farlow.

[Old Tele man]

...the great ones (guitar players) truly did it ALL well.

[jamminoutloud1]

I'm trying to get my rhythm changes and F bebop blues under my belt much better...do you guys have any reccomendations for recordings to listen to and transcribe(besides Parker) or do you have transcriptions to share?

[StevenA]

I paid for this lesson with Larry Meyer but am happy to share it with you.http://homepage.mac.com/stevenalhanti/Sites/Larry Meyer.mov

[Cap'n Fingers]

Thanks guys!
I'm beginning to feel like I owe $ to someone. :BEER

Let's keep this thread going.

[randy morser]

For a pretty accessable blues, you might try sonny stitt on tenor (he played alto too.) he's an encyclopedia of great blues licks in a jazz context. also, try transcribing solos by trombonists and bass players since it's harder for them to play faster than you can hear. there are a few coleman hawkins recordings from the 50s i listened to early on that featured a good bone player who was really tasty and accessable. major holly is my favorite bass player and a fantastic soloist. he's on a lot of hawkins stuff as well as zoot simms. and hey... there's always zoot! tenor players and the blues...

another lesson coming soon.

[DrSax]

I paid for this lesson with Larry Meyer but am happy to share it with you.http://homepage.mac.com/stevenalhanti/Sites/Larry Meyer.mov (http://homepage.mac.com/stevenalhanti/Sites/Larry%20Meyer.mov)

I think you paid for a concert, not a lesson! But very cool...

[beePee]

Cool stuff....i have a few things to post but....the editor won't let my paste from Word :(..hhhmmmmm....oh well....keep em comin'!!

BP

[randy morser]

Cool stuff....i have a few things to post but....the editor won't let my paste from Word :(..hhhmmmmm....oh well....keep em comin'!!

BP

It will, you just can't right-click to do it. You need to use the edit tab at the top next to file. You can use the paste thingy from there. Post away!

Randy

[beePee]

Thanks Randy...here I go:BEER ....even though I spell checked there's still goofy mistakes I'm sure...please forgive me

When I first learned the blues I had no idea what the progressions were or why they worked…so I was like most of the old blues guys ..who still don’t..but there is a pattern(even though they break the rules the patterns are still there.

12 bar blues is the most common (then 16 and 8….the blues guys Like John Lee Hooker are known to play 11 and 2/8 bar blues so ....WATCH OUT!!)

Please excuse me if you already know this…In 12 bar blues there are three 4 bar phrases.

1st phrase = I chord
2nd phrase =IV chord
3rd Phrase =V chord

Of course I can’t remember anybody doin’ this EXACT progression !!To give it more push pull /tension and release break the phrases up with the other chords. The 1st Phrase is the most flexible in that it can bear staying on the I chord for 4 bars

Here’s the most basic and common 12 bar blues based on Glenn Millers “In The Mood”

#1
I=4 bars ( bars 1-4)
IV=2 bars…(bars 5-6).. I=2 bars …(bars 7-8)
V=2 bars…(bar 9-10) .. I=2 bars….( bars 11-12)

He knuckles around with the bars 11-12 ( I think it’s either I-IV I or (I-IV) ( I-V) or (I-VI) (II-V) each chord is 2 beats( I can’t remember( a little help please!!)

Here’s a few more variations:

#2
I=4 bars ( bars 1-4)
IV=2 bars…(bars 5-6)…..I=2 bars …..(bars 7-8)
V=1 bars…(bar 9)………IV=1 bar…(bar 10)…. I=2 bars…( bars 11-12)

#3
I=4 bars( bars 1-4)
IV=2 bars…(bars 5-6)……..I=2 bars…(bars 7-8)
V=2 bars….(bars 9-10)……I= 1 bar… (bar 11)…….V=1 bar (bar 12)

#4
I=4 bars( bars 1-4)
IV=2 bars…(bars 5-6)……..I=2 bars….(bars 7-8)
V=2 bars….(bars 9-10)……IV= 1 bar (bar 11)…….V=1 bar (bar 12)


#5
I=4 bars( bars 1-4)
IV=2 bars…(bars 5-6)…..I=2 bars….…(bars 7-8)
V=2 bars….(bars 9-10).…IV= 1 bar… (bar 10)…..I=1 bar(bar 11) …V=1 bar (bar 12)

A quick change breaks up the 1st phrase and introduces the “IV” quicker

#6
I=1 bars……( bar 1)……IV=1 bar(bar 2)……I=2 bars(bar 3-4)
IV=2 bars…(bars 5-6).. .I=2 bars …(bars 7-8)
V=2 bars….(bars 9-10) .. I=2 bars….( bars 11-12)

Here’s where some subs can come in….. here’s a quick change one I like .

#7
I=1 bars……( bar 1)……IV=1 bar(bar 2)……I=2 bars(bar 3-4)
IV=2 bars…(bars 5-6).. .I=1 bar(bars 7) VI=1 bar (bar 8)
or Sub #1
(I-bV-V-VII) =bar 7
(bVII-III-bIII-VI) =bar 8

II=1 bar….(bar 9) .. V=1 bar(bar 10)….(I-VI)= bar 11..(II-V)=bar 12
or Sub #2
(I-bVII-VI-bIII) =bar 11
(II-#V-V-bII) = bar 12


I’m justa rock n roll guy so simple works good for me! For solo comping I play the chords subs with all the same shapes (7 #9)just change the bass note moved chromatically in sub #1 and the same idea in sub#2 with one variation.


Sub #1

E|--------------------|-------------|
B|---7-----7----6--6-|-5---5--4--4-|
G|---6-----6----5--5-|-4---4--3--3-|
D|---5-----5----4--4-|-3---3--2--2-|
A|---------6----5----|-----4--3-----|
E|---5-------------4-|-3---------2--|

Sub #2

E|--------------------|--------------
B|--13---11--10--10--|-9---9--8--7-
G|--12---10--9---9---|-8---8--7--6-
D|--11---9---8---8---|-7---7--6--5--
A|--12---10--9-------|-----8--7-----
E|---------------8----|-7---------5---

Composers have been using the chromatic concept of ...approach any note by a half step.... for centuries but the jazz guys really exploited it to create the altered dominant harmony.

Ooops that was longer than I thought!!!(you should see one of my other “simple’ examples!!)…

I’d love to see some more examples of subs for 12 bar blues (....or anything!!).Thanks

Butch Price

[Washburnmemphis]

I think you paid for a concert, not a lesson! But very cool...

He reminds me of a guy I used to take lessons from. A talented guy but he would throw so many things at you all at once without explanation or context that the lesson was, as you say, nothing more than a private concert.

[randy morser]

...I've heard it (chordal jazz) described as "...Bill Evans (piano) voicings for guitars."

There's more to it than that, though. They don't all have to be block chords. The melody can be in the middle or on the bottom of the chord too. Also, the melody could be a whole note on top of the chord whilst pretty little voices move underneath it on the lower strings... and that's just the tip of the iceberg. We can reach things easily that pianists can't reach with one hand. :D

Guitar started getting phased out of rhythm section in the mid-forties. Chuck Wayne and friends got together about that time and started working on playing the guitar like a painist would so that they didn't get phased out of work! They also did it for the love, don't get me wrong, but everybody loves to eat, too. So, they enlisted the help of Andre Segovia under the pretense of just studying the guitar. They were taking apart Revell and Debussy scores and putting a voice on a string to try to get things moving. Once they got comfortable seeing the chords and the melody that way, they were able to improvise that way without having to come up with an arrangement for each tune played a la chord melody. If they knew the melody and the chords, they were good to go. From there, they just got more and more creative. The cadre was part of Chuck Wayne's New York Jazz Guitar Symposium, which met every week in a clothing factory. Guitarists would come in to NY from all over the place and play with or for the guys who were regulars like Chuck Wayne, Carl Barry, Jack Wilkins, Les Paul, Gene Burtoncini (I think), and others. But there were many many more who would stop by because they were on the road with so and so. Herb Ellis, Barney Kessel, Mundell Lowe, Tal Farlow and others came, from what I've heard. This was a real community and it has its roots at the beginning of jazz guitar. I know about it because my teacher studied with Chuck Wayne and I also spoke with Jack Wilkins about it once or twice. I guess this might count as a lesson too.

[Old Tele man]

re: "We can reach things easily that pianists can't reach with one hand."

...uh, "how many" fingers do you have?

...most pianists I know play 3-5 note rhythm chords with their left-hand and up to 5-note melody chord (extensions) with their right-hand -- that adds up to 10-notes on my abacus -- but, I've only got four fingers and a thumb going for me on my guitar (ha,ha)!

[randy morser]

Haha. I meant onehanded. We can reach well over 2 1/2 octaves while they need two hands to do that. You knew what I meant you abacus wielding old cruster.;) We can walk a bass line, hold pedal tones on either side of the melody that we are playing, and get the chords out in 2 1/2 octaves all at the same time. They can't. Sheesh, Tele.:D

[Old Tele man]

...just "clarifying"...don't want to confuse the newbies.

[randy morser]

I forgot. Thanks :)

[Cap'n Fingers]

Glad I'm not a newbie and can pretend I knew that. :D

[randy morser]

Haa

[ssss]

What I like to do is to lay down a melody or motiv that sounds nice and then trying to harmonize it.

I've posted two examples called "blues comping" here:

http://www.soundclick.com/bands/pagemusic.cfm?bandID=495316


If you listen to it, you should get the idea.

Cheers:BEER

[gennation]

What I like to do is to lay down a melody or motiv that sounds nice and then trying to harmonize it.

I've posted two examples called "blues comping" here:

http://www.soundclick.com/bands/pagemusic.cfm?bandID=495316


If you listen to it, you should get the idea.

Cheers:BEER

I got the idea ;)

Beautiful!

[ssss]

Here's another example. It's part of the intro of the tune "The Things We Did Last Summer" on Peter Bernsteins "Signs of Life" CD.

For most of the intro, I believe to some extent he first had the melody in mind, and on the clip, again I first only play only the melody, then the re-harmonization.

http://www.soundclick.com/bands/pagemusic.cfm?bandID=495316


For stuff like this, I think it's the best if you place the medody on the high H and E string. Also, all the "chords" are basically only triads, but with a decent axe, they still give a full, "wide" sound.

[randy morser]

I really like those two. Post a few more.

[gennation]

I'm glad to see this thread still kicking legitimately. I have some new stuff I'm getting together...been working with Kind of Blue for about 2 months and just started working on Coltrane doing Mr PC...man, do I have a huge lightbulb glowing over my head! There's some serious magic in that music.

[randy morser]

no kidding. Coletrane is tough, baby. The people who say it's not tough are not getting it. It wasn't easy for TRANE to play like that. His practicing for 8-12 hours a day made it possible and MOST people consider him a genius. Now back to what I actually know about: I've had some students learning to play jazz and it's to find them easily accessable, a sort of step-ladder jazz guitarist... I've been using Sal Salvador and Frank Vignola. What do you think? I'll post a lesson tomorrow. I'll try to make it a chord-melody thing, though I'm not sure how I'll post it yet.

[gennation]

I saw Frank a couple of months ago. He and his band were playing in a coffee shop/book store! Great show. Very nice guys too.

[Old Tele man]

...Sal Salvador was great!

...it's a sad note that he passed away!

...I often visited his website (which doesn't exist anymore) and occassionaly exchanged e-mails with him.

[randy morser]

I saw Frank a couple of months ago. He and his band were playing in a coffee shop/book store! Great show. Very nice guys too.

Do you live in NYC?

[GenoBluzGtr]

Not really a "jazz guy" but when the gig calls for it, I prefer to use alot of maj 7 and 9th chords.

Example.... AMaj7 - D9 - AMaj7 - F#9 - F9 - E9 - G9. Occaisionally I will also "convert" the 9th chords to the 13th (I think???) by playing the 9th shape, but fretting the low E string instead of the A string (same fret) and using my pinky to fret the B and high e string two frets above for some variation.

Over the chord progression above, a simply C# blues or pentatonic minor scale sounds great for noodling/riffing along.

If anyone can correct my "chord conversion" above, feel free.. I just play them by ear and not sure of the naming conventions.

[Old Tele man]

...you can "hint" at a 13th chord by simply "adding" a Major 6th to any dominant 7th chord...ie: 13 = d7 & M6

[go7]

Thanks for the lesson.+1

[gennation]

Do you live in NYC?

No I don't. I did travel to the City (mid-town) about a week a month for 8 years at an old job...but, sadly I haven't been there in over 7 years :( It's my favorite city to visit and I have a lot of friends there still.

I saw Frank at a local coffee shop in Grand Rapids MI of all places (where I'm from). Great show.

Where are you in the City?

[randy morser]

No I don't. I did travel to the City (mid-town) about a week a month for 8 years at an old job...but, sadly I haven't been there in over 7 years :( It's my favorite city to visit and I have a lot of friends there still.

I saw Frank at a local coffee shop in Grand Rapids MI of all places (where I'm from). Great show.

Where are you in the City?

I don't live there either. I live near DC. I founded and ran the Annapolis Society of Jazz Guitar Players for a while and he was one of guests, as were with Jimmy Bruno, Gene Bertoncini, John Pisano, Lawrence Juber, Walt Namuth, and a few others. We had a lot of great players come through and everyone who wanted to got to sit in with them. It was fun while I had the time.