Royer 121 fans or haters UNITE!

[Cary Chilton]

I am seriously thinking about buying this ribbon mic for rock guitars, I know it is a safe tried and true rock guitar mic. Lately, I have been seeing it for sale? I wonder,...... what the people who sold their Royer 121's bought in place of it? Or did they simply give up recording???????? hehe

[loudboy]

I am seriously thinking about buying this ribbon mic for rock guitars, I know it is a safe tried and true rock guitar mic. Lately, I have been seeing it for sale? I wonder,...... what the people who sold their Royer 121's bought in place of it? Or did they simply give up recording???????? hehe

It's the one piece of recording gear, out of $10K worth in the past few years, which has given me the biggest bang for the buck, sonically.

Especially on clean/mid-gain stuff. When you bring the fader up in the control room, it sounds just like the amp.

I couldn't recommend a piece of gear more highly.

Loudboy

[LSchefman]

The Royers are excellent for getting a certain vibe. You might want to check out the Russian Oktava ribbons (some are being imported by E-H under their name for about $350). They've been getting some good reviews. There is a USA Oktava site that sells the Oktava branded ones for about the same money, and they're the Russian mics, not the Chinese imitations.

Caveat: I haven't heard the Oktava ribbons. I have used the Royers.

[alphadynamic]

:dudeRoyers are the mutts nuts IMHO. I recently recorded a session in an old church house, and used a pair on a Marshall hand wired combo, and an Orange AD30, and in 12 years of professional recording I don't think I have ever had a better recorded guitar on tape. A bit pricey though
!

[onemind]

I recently listed mine for sale. It wasn't for a lack of love, but the second reason, I rarely record anymore, and often go direct if I do, just can't crank an amp the way I would want at home. I figure it will be better off in the hands of someone who'll use it.

[hw2nw]

couldn't recommend the 121's enough. they sound great on almost every amp I've played/tracked.

[SlipRake]

R-122 for me. Awesome piece of gear. Useful for recording at all distances and on or off axis. My highest recommendation also.

[Bryan T]

I've been curious about Royer microphones for a long time. Just how fragile are they? I work in a few different studios, so I'd be transporting the microphone regularly. Should I be worried about damaging a Royer during transport more than a condensor?

Thanks,
Bryan

[Sub-D]

great mic as the others said, I wish I could afford one for my
home studio........definitely high on the gas list.......

[Jarick]

I would LOVE a Royer 121...but man at $1k...I don't generate enough money or talent to justify it.

BUT, I did pick up one of these:

http://www.musiciansfriend.com/product?sku=277069

http://www.dsmiller.com/Images/RSM-3.jpg

I got mine in a group buy directly from China for about $90 after tax, duties, S&H. I don't know if it's worth $250, but it's worth $100. It's a bit darker, but very smooth. Takes EQ very well. I put an e609 up against the grille and the ribbon a couple feet back.

Here's a clip:

http://www.soundclick.com/bands/songInfo.cfm?bandID=150904&songID=4115927

[Bryan T]

hth.

dt / spltrcl

Very helpful. Now I'm lusting for a 122.

Thanks,
Bryan

[E-Rock]

122 rules :)

[toomanyhoursx]

totally worth it. it will make your guitars sound so much meatier. our new album was recorded with a 121 and 57 combo through API pres... and i've never heard my guitar sound so heavenly kick ass.

[elambo]

121 fan here... Can't see how someone could NOT be. It's just one of those things.

[Cary Chilton]

I was thinking an AEA r92 fan would pipe in for comparison.... I have a quote for a royer 121 for 980 new, so I think I will bite.... :)

[gainiac]

Any of you guys own both a 121 and 122?

If so what would you consider the difference (other than the 121 being able to handle much higher SPL's)?

I've used a 122 with an acoustic...........

[BluesForDan]

I would really love to have both in my mic briefcase. Very expensive, but absolutely worth it. The guy where I took a recording studio camp at loves those mics, as much if not more than the Neumanns.

I would imagine those selling would be doing the same thing I was doing, unloading gear they weren't using because they need the money for those pesky necessities, like food, rent, clothing.

[gainiac]

methinks you've got it backwards, there;
the 122's take higher SPL's.

to my ear,
the 122's seem to:
exhibit less self noise
offer more extended high & low end
be more forgiving of mic-pre's
be more flexible in general

that said, i find the 121's to offer a slightly more "classic" ribbon delivery;
warm mids, great at beautifying "air".

dt / spltrcl

Thanks Splatt!

[Sub-D]

an interesting review of the 122 that does some comparison to the 121

http://www.proaudioreview.com/january03/royer.shtml

[gainiac]

an interesting review of the 122 that does some comparison to the 121

http://www.proaudioreview.com/january03/royer.shtml

Nice in depth explanation there......

[Sub-D]

Mr. splatt sir,
While I have you on the subject of microphones may I enquire
as to which you used on the cleanish chordal guitar from
song for sci & them buried standing, which you recently shared with
us? Truly gorgeous sound there..interested in the recording chain,
if you would like to divulge it....

[jca345]

I just picked up an R121 myself for putting together some soundclips on my website. I'll chime in with some thoughts on this mic once I get a bit of experience with it. It seems to have a stellar reputation.

Korg D888, Royer R121, SM 57, Homebrew Canare/Neutrik Balanced XLR cables = :RoCkIn

[Bryan T]

Can anyone recommend a place to rent a Royer 122 in Los Angeles?

Thanks,
Bryan

[µ¿ z3®ø™]

love my R121s.
they really need a nice, high gain mic pre w/ selectable input impedance to really shine. the chandler TG2 would be one of the cheaper mic pres that are suitable. i bought my R121s before the R122 was released and have to agree that the R122 is probably the more prudent choice. it's not nearly as fussy about mic pres as the R121 is.
comparison between the royers and wes dooley's mics?
i think the royer is my reference choice for close micing electric guitar cabs. i have yet to find a mic that i can plunk down 6" in front of the grille cloth, directly on axis and be reasonably sure that it's gonna have the balance and sound of what i hear coming out of the amp itself. wes' mics are much more 'old school' sounding (to me) and possess more that a dollop of 'magic' about them. i wouldn't want to be w/o any of my R121, R44, R84 or R88 and would also like to give props to the new(ish) coles 4040. the thing about ribbons over a lot of condensers is that very many of the modern condensers have a pretty hyped top end. i don't think this sounds very flattering w/ most digital recording. to me ribbons and digital encoding are a perfect match, made in heaven.

[Cary Chilton]

Funny I am hearing R122's .... Gearslutz forumites, much prefer the R121's

[loudboy]

Funny I am hearing R122's .... Gearslutz forumites, much prefer the R121's

My thoughts on this is that for the extra money the R-122 costs, you could just about buy a standalone pre, which would not only be good for the R-121, it would also work for any OTHER mics you owned.

I've used my R-121 thru a variety of pres, from ART MPA to API and Great River. Always sounded great, never had a problem getting enough gain, especially when close miking a guitar cab.

Loudboy

[µ¿ z3®ø™]

My thoughts on this is that for the extra money the R-122 costs, you could just about buy a standalone pre, which would not only be good for the R-121, it would also work for any OTHER mics you owned.

I've used my R-121 thru a variety of pres, from ART MPA to API and Great River. Always sounded great, never had a problem getting enough gain, especially when close miking a guitar cab.

it doesn't surprise me that the gearslutz forums would lean towards the R121. most of those peeps are willing to spend as much on a mic pre as someone here is willing to spend on a boo-teek guitar or amp. over here at TGP, many think that the royer R121 is an expensive mic. the folks i know at gearslutz (and myself) consider the R121 an 'affordable' mic. the great river MP2-NV is a bit over $2K (the mercenary edition is the way to go) and i'm sure a LOT of peeps here would balk at that price. the great river DOES have the impedance switching that the royer likes. haven't tried the ART.
the R122 is $500.00 USD more than the R121. i don't know of any $500 mic pre that is gonna do justice to the R121 and that includes the excellent FMR RNP, which just makes the R121 sound thin.
so, altho' i prefer the R121 for myself (being festooned GT vipre, chandler TG2, GR MP2-NV, millennia, etc.), i still think that the R122 is probably a safer bet for those recordists here that don't wanna spend the $$$ to buy a decent mic pre for the R121.
it's absolutely true that if the only application for the R121 is that of micing guitar cabs, not as much gain is needed. for everything else, tho', U're still gonna need a lot of gain. and i can't emphasize just how important impedance switching is to load the mic properly. again. the R122 is free of such constraints.

[Cary Chilton]

Hi whatever you name is, thanks for the information. Is the royer 122 phantom powered ?? Can you explain a little about the impedance? Which other mic pre are compatible with royer 121 besides the mp-2nv, chandler TG-2??? Aurora GTQ2 MKIII? or the WUNDER?

[µ¿ z3®ø™]

Hi whatever you name is, thanks for the information. Is the royer 122 phantom powered ?? Can you explain a little about the impedance? Which other mic pre are compatible with royer 121 besides the mp-2nv, chandler TG-2??? Aurora GTQ2 MKIII? or the WUNDER?

zero is close enough.
not really phantom powered in the way that a condenser works. the phantom power for the royer R122 feeds a circuit that adds some gain and provides a high enough impedance for the ribbon to function properly. kind of like a built in mini preamp.
rather than reiterate the whole impedance thing, i direct Ur attention to this (http://mixonline.com/online_extras/ribbon_mic_preamps/) article in mix magazine as authored by wes dooley, surely the protector of all things ribbon for some decades now. wes is far more erudite than myself at elucidating the intricacies of the feeding and migration patterns of ribbon microphones.
apart from the great river and the chandler (both with switchable impedance) i really only have experience w/ the groove tubes vipre, millennia HV-3D and the focusrite ISA428 (a decently priced four channels of mic pre that sounds quite nice w/ the R1210) and so don't feel that i can comment on other mic pres.

[datguytim]

Wrap me up in Royer ribbons . . . .

[Cary Chilton]

has anyone experienced the 122 not sounding as good as the 121 with an excellent mic pre??

[Cary Chilton]

I just bought the Royer 121 and an AT84 shockmount! I am stoked! What mic pres did you buy for your royer to track rock, pop, blues?

[MichaelK]

Great thread, guys. Thanks.

[WahmBoomAh]

Hope y`all will pardon the slight hijack here ;

Real world sad but true....

I`ll probably have to do a good bit of tracking through one of those silent cabs (ala demeter) .

So the mic will be no further than a foot from the speaker and there will not only be no room sound ,there`ll be no ROOM!

I`m confused as to how much of the royer mojo depends on the room/distance factor . Some use is at close range and some don`t .

Would I be spending big bucks for a royer when I could get similar close range results with a 57 ?

Will the royer beauty shine through in a closed off cab at close range ? Anyone tried this ?

thanks

[µ¿ z3®ø™]

So the mic will be no further than a foot from the speaker and there will not only be no room sound ,there`ll be no ROOM!

I`m confused as to how much of the royer mojo depends on the room/distance factor . Some use is at close range and some don`t .

Would I be spending big bucks for a royer when I could get similar close range results with a 57 ?

Will the royer beauty shine through in a closed off cab at close range ? Anyone tried this ?

while i haven't tried the royer in an isocab, i'm not of the opinion that the magic of the R121 is the 'room/distance' factor.
i'd hazard that the R121 sounds good on electric guitar recorded onto digital media is because the mic has none of the treble hyping that most condensers have (the last thing that i usually want is more top end on miced amp) and has scads more midrange detail than the SM57.
my only concern about a ribbon in an isocab would be the potential damage to the ribbon in a sealed environment. i'm not saying that the ribbon would be damaged, i'm wondering how it would fare in a sealed enclosure.

[WahmBoomAh]

Good point ...There might be a safe limit ?
I really like recording with a champ but even 6watts is too loud for the neighbors . I have no plans for anything over 40 watts for clean sounds and ...well, the champ gets as raunchy as anything "loud" for breakup . No need for silicone implants/piercings or tatoos on the bass end . My project is to build the isocab with one 8" and one 10" with seperate inputs(and a stereo/mono switch) and 2 goosenecks in the cab ....
.....57 and 121/122?
.....different heads into 2 speakers /same head into 2 different sounding speakers ....etc,etc,,,

[µ¿ z3®ø™]

well, the royer is quite robust.... for a ribbon.
why not drop the royer folks a line and see what they say?

[regotheamigo]

Not to get off topic, but does the 121 sound any good on vocals?

[Cary Chilton]

mic pres???????????? please?

thanks

[µ¿ z3®ø™]

Not to get off topic, but does the 121 sound any good on vocals?

depends on the vocalist.
i can see it would be not bad w/ someone w/ a sibilant, reedy sounding voice. vocals are not it's strength tho', at least for close miced vocals. it's a nice mic to throw up as a blumlein pair for a choir or BG vocals.

mic pres???????????? please?

there have been several mentioned in this thread already.

[Bryan T]

The studio I've been working in just got a 121 and a Chandler preamp. I had the chance to record a number of different guitar parts today and am very, very impressed. I used my tele and my Princeton Reverb, as well as a variety of effects (Fuzz Factory, Fulldrive 2, RAT, Moog Ring Modulator, Memory Man). Everything recorded better than it has before. It basically presented the amp's sound as I hear it, which is quite different than the normal Neumann or SM57 sounds, especially on the fuzz or overdriven sounds. I'm quite pleased.

Bryan

[starfish]

The new Peluso ribbon mic is really nice and is outshining the r121 in preliminary A/B on Tape Op and Studio Reviews. It is also costs a couple bills less.

[alschnier]

The 121 is my favorite mic. period. I just did an album recently & before doing any tracking for the elec. guitars, acoustics, piano, or bass I performed a bit of a mic shoot out.

I tested the following mics : R121, 409, 414, 57, 421, RE20 (+ U67, KM54 on acoustic & piano only). I ran all mics thru the same pre w/o any EQ or compression (Trident series 24/65/70 console). My goal was to find the mic that offered the truest representation of what I heard in the room, w/o coloration. The Royer won hands down in all 4 cases.

That is not to say that the other mics didn't have their merits. The 54s on an acoustic are great for adding a strummy track to a mix. The 67s are great on the piano. The Royer accurately reproduced my acoustic like I'd never heard it before.

Highly recommend using a coincident pair for an acoustic. For mic'ing amps, I usually go about 4-6 off cab @ a slightly diffused angle (30 degrees or so).

LOVE THIS MIC! Have no need for a 48v version, as far as I can tell.

[starfish]

You absolutely did what you should do in that situation - you used your ears and selected the best mic for the scenario (room, pre, instrument(s)).

However, I would caution making a generalized statement about an R121 or any ribbon mic winning in a broad mic shootout because it's not going to work for everyone in most situations. As a matter of fact, I can say broadly that if you pair a ribbon with a darker sounding preamp (i.e. Neve & Neve clones) it will sound pretty dark and often lackluster. If you then stack several tracks, it can equal downright mush.

That being said, ribbons are still great mics and when paired with the right pre in the right situation - then they excel, as is your recent experience.

[Cary Chilton]

Starfish, if your a guitar player then a ribbon mic is a killer way to go. I haven't noticed in mud when layering tracks. The nice thing is, my sound is so huge, I don't need tons tracks anyway.
Off topic, my pet peeve, a nice thick true signal is MUCH better anyday great compared to all the pod freaks, and other amp similuator software, and guess what? No surprise here that in the last 7 years or more, so many DAW users demos or final pro packed product had similar guitar sounds to other CD's in a similar Genre, even form different countries....

The royer 121 is the most accurate in reproducing the sound as a hear it than other mic I have tried to date. Yes, with a mic pre amp up 65 db or over, you can extended the highs or bottom or add mids, or shimmer etc depending on your budget. To answer the other fellows question, I would not really like to use a ribbon mic for singing. The ribbon is 3-5 times thinner than a human hair, while it is immune to heat and humidity, the smallest touch of wind is it's kryptonite.

[olectric]

I'm in the process of building a small PT rig for recording guitar (electric and acoustic) and vocals so that I can do my session work at home. I want the majority of my budget to go to mics and pres. I'm looking at the 121, but I need to know which pres have and have not worked for you with your 121. Anything <$1000? <$500?

I've heard that the M-Audio DMP3 is great for the money...but I wonder if using that with a 121 is kind of like plugging an Anderson into a Crate amp...

What do you think?

[Cary Chilton]

you know what? Right now I am ONLY using my little mbox2 and its stock little crap mic pre and the Royer 121 sounds WAY better than my shures and Senn 906! Basically ANY mic pre with more than 65 db of gain will be fine! ( that means TONS!) You can get a hot pre now, made by the AEA ribbon co. called the TRP, a mic pre, made for ribbons for about 700 USD. IT is very simple, one channel? and NO DI, but it is supposed to sound pretty damn good!

[starfish]

Starfish, if your a guitar player then a ribbon mic is a killer way to go.

Of course, and I have exp. with a lot of pres and mics, which is why I offered my insights. I still stand behind them. A ribbon mic (any brand) is not going to work for everyone (per the blanket "shootout" recommendation). Success will depend on pre choices, room, guitar cab, etc.

That being said, a ribbon can be *killer* on guitar in the right situation. Again, you have to use your ears and try different pres.

FWIW, I wouldn't track a voicemail with an mbox pre so we're coming at this from different perspectives. :)

BTW, since you mention AEA, the AEA R84 is a KILLER ribbon mic. Search threads on Studio Reviews and Tape Op. It's often described as richer low end, more bottom, and at the same time, slightly brighter than the R121. I usually don't look for bright in a ribbon, and I wouldn't describe the AEA R84 as a bright mic - it's still a ribbon. But it is richer than and a little bit brighter than the R121. Sometimes this is a good thing depending on the pre.

[µ¿ z3®ø™]

To answer the other fellows question, I would not really like to use a ribbon mic for singing. The ribbon is 3-5 times thinner than a human hair, while it is immune to heat and humidity, the smallest touch of wind is it's kryptonite.

i would just like to point out that virtually every voice recorded in north america prior to the fifties (and well into the fifties after the advent of the U47 in NA) was recorded by ribbon mics. the RCA R44 was absolutely ubiquitous during this time. i also use ribbons a lot for vocal tracking. just not the R121. the R121s set of peculiar colourations are suited for close micing a guitar cab and not for most voices, in my experience.
i think the R121 is particularly well suited to the close micing of a guitar cab because of the stunning midrange detail and the softer top end. most guitar amps need some sort of taming of the area between 3-5K and the R121 sort of does this w/o having to resort to EQ or colourful compressors.
i also think that the current glut of exceedingly bright condenser mics has somehow shifted how some listen to a recording chain. it seems that if we record something and it doesn't have that sparkle and shine that the mic must be at fault. sometimes there is no sparkle or shine at the source. but much like track after track of a muddy recording chain will make a recording sound dull and lifeless, track after track of a modern, hyped sounding condenser into grainy sounding prosumer mic pres and recorded into so-so A/D conversion will sound like..... many modern recordings. bright, thin, grainy, brittle and not at all pleasing to the ear.
in the end, the art of recording comes down to a really good source captured w/ whatever suits that source within the context of the entire track. a particular recording can only stand so many 'bright and shiny' tracks, likewise the use of duller tracks. lately i've had my nano loaded w/ all of the led zep records (highest bit rate). the thing that astounds me is that pagey never uses the same sounds twice except for drums. some sounds are dull some sounds are bright and thin, but it all works in the context of the song. we could all learn a lot by listening to these tracks and take them apart to see how an erstwhile genius could paint such beautiful canvasses of sonic integrity.

[Cary Chilton]

U -man yes Page was very innovative! You can easily use a pop filter with a ribbon for a singer -definitely. Would work amazing for a crooner, Bing Crosby type thing. Since ribbons can VERY easily be ruined by the smallest puff of air, I personally don't want to sing in it. Nice thing that Uman mentioned, that I agree with, is that ribbon mics work great with DAW's and keep their warm when converted digitally because the ribbon reproduction is so accurate. Starfish, mentioned the R84, but I would rather the R91 since the R84 adds too much bass. The R91 is thinner sounding than the Royer 121, so the 121 is kinda of in the middle of the two which is why I bought the Royer 121.

[µ¿ z3®ø™]

U -man yes Page was very innovative! You can easily use a pop filter with a ribbon for a singer -definitely. Would work amazing for a crooner, Bing Crosby type thing.

the secret of using ribbons on voice is not to use a pop filter.
look at all the old photos.
the mic is either placed at chest level and pointed up at the mouth area and the singer doesn't sing 'into' the mic or the mic is placed above the singer and pointed down. in neither case does the singer actually sing 'into' the mic. the results are also very different. chest - bing, lots of proximity. overhead - lady day, open, airy, breathy tones.
certain ribbons are very good on voice.

[alschnier]

I'd just like to 2nd what carlton suggested. my shoot out was not so much a blanket shoot out to end all future mic choices. I should mention that I also tried several diff. guitars w. several diff. amps. I then further went thru several diff. pres & had to deal w. the coloration of the pres (neve, api, daking, altec, & ampex). I was just giving the brief synopsis of what I found in terms of the reproductive qualities of the mic.

I agree that a wide variety of guitars, amps, fx, mics, pres, comps, eqs, should all be a part of the equation when producing a song. Page is a great example. Tele bridge pickup thru a Supro combo on Zeppelin I & it sounds huge.

Just wanted to share this pic from a recent session:

http://i86.photobucket.com/albums/k117/alschnier/gear/DSC06322.jpg

btw - it sounded huge in the track. somewhere between angus & zappa.

[Cary Chilton]

heheh that is funny! Alschiner, what solid state pre did you like the best with guitar? neve? Was it as killer on vocals IYO?

[alschnier]

I switched primarily between an api 512 & the daking. I did use an ampex 351 & also an altec 1566a on a few tracks. no eq. no compression (although, some got added during the mix, ultimately). I was just getting fed up w. squashed lifeless guitars & really wanted to purify the track. You know? Start w. a Tele thru an AC30 & have it still sound like that in the mix, for example.

I did have a Neve 33122a @ the time. it's a class ab pre w. marinaire trasnformers. one of Neve's 1st class ab pres. primarily a broadcast module w. a 4 band eq. Very typical neve quality sound, although not quite as lush as a 1066, 1073, 1081, etc. Still, it was really nice w. the Royers on acoustic tracks & the cleaner fender amp stuff.

[ericb]

On a sorta different, sorta related topic, if you guys who are communicating with Al Schnier having checked out his nationally (internationally) renowned/ famous band MOE you should.... they're killer.. It's great having celebrities participate on these forums


Eric

[alschnier]

thanks eric. not sure I'd classify as a celebrity, but thanks for the plug all the same. love this forum. discovered thru a gearsultz reference.

[ericb]

thanks eric. not sure I'd classify as a celebrity, but thanks for the plug all the same. love this forum. discovered thru a gearsultz reference.

Cool... Ok , how 'bout "Rockstar" ? Does that work? I'm just kidding with ya.. but man I would've loved to make some different decisions in my past when choosing boring f/t secure work over trying to make it in the music world. . You guy tour the world and sell out and have loads of fans so that ain't too bad!

A few of my co-workers have been seeing MOE at a lot of shows and I'm so pissed I keep missing the MOEDOWN and Snoedown shows in Lake Placid .. maybe next time! I have seen you at Higher Ground , and at the Mardi Gras Parade. Also sold you a Fulldrive2 about 10 years ago! Take care.... back to your regular scheduled RIBBON MIC programming

Eric

[Cary Chilton]

Alschnier, nice site, dude! I couldn't find you on there or what you play but welcome to TGP! That pignose pic, was that just a stock pignose or did you mod it? Have you ever tried or hear the 1073? Or the Neve-inspired current pres like Great River MP-2NV, Wunder PEQ-1, Chandler LDT-1 or TG-2 or the new Germanium, or the Brent Averill 1073? I really want to a premium pre but I am still not sure which to get. I am hoping that my pre will excell on male alto vocals and electric guitars. What AD/DA are you using? Rosetta?

[Cody McLain]

Welcome Al... glad to see another artist on this forum that I have seen live and listen to. This a good forum with a lot of great folks of all kinds. Thanks for sharing your experience....

[µ¿ z3®ø™]

discovered thru a gearsultz reference.

that's exactly the same route that i arrived here.
there was a thread on the gearslutz forums asking for sites like 'slutz', except for gee-tar gearheads.

I really want to a premium pre but I am still not sure which to get.

all excellent mic pres that U mention. all are very colourful and the only 'adjustment' w/ them is how much gain.
for an exceedingly nice sounding and very flexible mic pre that suits almost every mic i have ever used w/ it, think about the groove tubes vipre.
the problem w/ one really good mic pre is stacking a lot of tracks w/ it. of course, it can be done. but it requires advanced engineering chops on how to EQ and effect the individual channels to get some sonic 'spread' in the final result.

[awakenedgroup]

Hi everyone. I have operated a commercial facility for over 20 years and belong to a small but interesting community of engineers that have found that if you turn the royer around, (yes - hit the 'wrong' side) you get some amazing results. We learned this from the royer folks, and they have included considerable information on this 'backword' technique in their demo cd. You should also be able fo find info at their site.

Skip Brown
The Awakened Group Studios
Roanoke, Va

awakenedgroup@cox.net