Is it worth learning Modes?

[jimmybcool]

I have a teacher that makes hard effort to keep me working on learning theory. OK, thats a good thing I guess though I have more fun trying to learn songs.

Right now he is trying to get me to comprehend modes, how to navigate up and down th fretboard, and knowing where I am in relation to the "1" note at all times. I think he says "Playing guitar is knowing where the one note is" in his sleep.

So, for a guy who is too pld to ever really play in a legitimate band or have a carreer is it worth the time to get this stuff? Will it allow me to assimilate songs so much easier it is worth doing now instead of learning Hendrix?

Opinions please.

PS - who can name a single song in Locrian :crazy

[Blindspot]

I'm sure you will get some enlightening answers to your query, as soon as the Locrian melody leaves our collective consciousness....:eek:

[hangten]

No.
just learn the ones hendrix used...

[yZe]

Modes are more of a theoretical concept in order to explain other concepts

It is more important to understand chord tones and how those modal scale tones resolve to such chord tones over a given chord progression

You only look at a mode IN LIGHT OF what the chord tones are

[aleclee]

My current practice priorities are to

Improve my chord vocabulary, mastering a number of shapes/patterns for all the common extensions
be able to play and hear the different modes.IMO, building one's chord and scale vocabularies goes a long way towards letting you better hear songs and melodies, making it easier for you to comp as well as solo/improvise.

[jspax7]

So, for a guy who is too pld to ever really play in a legitimate band or have a carreer is it worth the time to get this stuff? Will it allow me to assimilate songs so much easier it is worth doing now instead of learning Hendrix?

Opinions please.

PS - who can name a single song in Locrian :crazy

My opinion is,.... yes!

You might be invited to a jam sometime, and someone will play a cool chord progression. If you know theory, you will be able to improvise over the changes and play some cool stuff. How fun is that?

It's easy to learn and apply modes in a rock context. Just remember that each major mode contains a major pentatonic scale. (5 notes) The other 2 notes come from the key that you are in. Likewise, minor modes contain a minor pentatonic, with the other 2 notes coming from the key.

Here's an example:

A minor pentatonic= ACDEG
in the key of C, add B and F. Aeolian mode

A minor pentatonic=ACDEG
in the key of G, add B and F#. Dorian mode

A minor pentatonic=ACDEG
in the key of F, add Bb and F. Phrygian mode

Easy, right? Fun too. Worth the trouble? I think so.

[Mullet Kingdom]

Wow! What a question!


Making progress is always going to involve at least a modicum of self-discipline. IE practicing as opposed to noodle-ing and only playing the stuff you want to.

The major scale modes are a considerable chunk of musical knowledge that can ultimately enable you to do a seemingly endless number of things, if put to good use.

Getting those seven patterns under your fingers can unlock all kinds of mysteries and ultimately serve to deepen your vocabulary, but not if you keep wondering "when are we gonna get to the good stuff," "or why am I doing this."

I say, go for it. It'll only make you a better player in the long run -- and I assume that's what you want given that you're taking lessons. :AOK

[KRosser]

Opinions please.

Yes, it's worth it. But then again, I don't believe the pursuit of knowledge needs a justification.

PS - who can name a single song in Locrian :crazy

The beginning of "Inner Urge" by Joe Henderson.

Locrian works great over any half-diminished chord, wherever you find them.

[dkaplowitz]

"Playing guitar is knowing where the one note is"Did he tell you what that means, cuzz I'm still trying to figure it out.

I think learning the modes helps your ears, helps you learn your way around the fingerboard and helps you communicate better with other musicians. It's definitely worth learning. It's not the only way to play melodies or solos, but it's worth more than just dismissing out of hand as being not worth bothering with.


PS - who can name a single song in Locrian :crazyThe intro to Enter Sandman by Metallica, the keyboard melody during the intro to YYZ by Rush.

[Antero]

It depends entirely on your priorities as a player. Knowledge is always good, but you might be better off spending your time working on a different aspect of guitar playing, eh?

The question is, what do YOU want to do, and what will help you do it?

[ivers]

Learn the major scales in all keys, then take the 30 minutes to memorize the names of the modes within the major scale. It's not hard, and no theory can hurt you. What you don't need, though, is to think modally in order to navigate changes in functional harmony, that's IMO overcomplicating stuff.

[jimmybcool]

Morning. Thanks for the responses. LOLs. Who knew anyone actually did play Locrian.

I guess it is hard to stay with the grind. I've been playing now for almost 2 years and still can't really rip up the fretboard. Seems most songs I want to play have some aspect that is too difficult. For example Hendrix uses these chords with the thumb over the top in most of what he does and I can NOT get that right.

But, I guess I agree that I need the foundation so 5 years from now I'm not still lost. I need to be able to play the scales and pentatonics and chords and recognize what key am in if I want to play with others.

Gosh. This is hard. I thought all rock guitarists were drug addled undisciplined womanizing party monsters. I mean, that's why I started this :dude

[tonezoneonline]

Gosh. This is hard. I thought all rock guitarists were drug addled undisciplined womanizing party monsters. I mean, that's why I started this :dude


It takes 10 years to get to that point.Keep practicing.

[KRosser]

Gosh. This is hard. I thought all rock guitarists were drug addled undisciplined womanizing party monsters. I mean, that's why I started this :dude

This is so old school...

Politicians are now the the kings of the 'undisciplined womanizing party monsters', and lawyers have all the best drugs.


In all seriousness - relax man, you've only been playing two years? This is a race that goes to the marathon runner, not the sprinter. Learn at whatever pace it comes, find lots of people to play with and have fun.

[MGT]

There's no reason you can't spend some of your practice time learning some theoretical concepts AND learning songs/lead parts, is there? Once you start really understanding the scale/chord relationships better, you'll probably see how that stuff helps you learn the songs anyway!!

I always loved learning the songs & transcribing solos, too (who doesn't!!) but I always tried to figure out why he/she was playing those notes...otherwise, it would be hard to figure out how to apply it to my own solos. I can remember how much easier those rock solos were to figure out once I knew the natural minor scale (aeolian mode) up & down the neck.

[unoguitar]

I learned the 7 major modes over a few weeks last year. This after "playing" guitar for 30 yrs. (see sig.). I am surprised how often now that I can recognize the use of these modes in recordings I've heard all my life, and now I can readily jam along and even improvise a little over the track and do so correctly.
It becomes even more mind boggling that I might some day be able to actually understand the construct of the modes and chord/mode relationships.

[jimmybcool]

It takes 10 years to get to that point.Keep practicing.

Nah. My body won't take it. I guess I'll have to emulate a clean living rock star (?) cause I can't even take the hangover more than 4 scotches give me now.

[jimmybcool]

This is so old school...

Politicians are now the the kings of the 'undisciplined womanizing party monsters', and lawyers have all the best drugs.


In all seriousness - relax man, you've only been playing two years? This is a race that goes to the marathon runner, not the sprinter. Learn at whatever pace it comes, find lots of people to play with and have fun.

Hey, I just want the room keys and underwear thrown at me on stage. is that so much to ask? Yup :rotflmao

I know it takes time but at 51 I wonder how long have I got anyway. I'd like to do something with it but I don't want to do it until I feel accomplished.

I soulda taken up drums or flute. I'd be farther along now and wouldn't have spent so much on toys :BOUNCE

[jimmybcool]

I learned the 7 major modes over a few weeks last year. This after "playing" guitar for 30 yrs. (see sig.). I am surprised how often now that I can recognize the use of these modes in recordings I've heard all my life, and now I can readily jam along and even improvise a little over the track and do so correctly.
It becomes even more mind boggling that I might some day be able to actually understand the construct of the modes and chord/mode relationships.

Well, another hour spent practicing scales and later another hour reading and practicing different patterns based on mode.

Maybe in 30 years I'll get it too.

[Donster]

Learning new stuff can only lead to good things. Like an idea that you wouldn't have stumbled on otherwise...

I vote for learning it. Besides, the more exotic you get with it the cooler it sounds!

[jimfog]

Suprised no one else has said this.....

I deal with my students all differently, depending on the goals THEY tell me they want to achieve.

From what I seem to hear you saying.......No, I don't think spending much time on modes would be the best way to use your time. If you just want to learn some songs to sit around and play, then the best way to do that...........is to learn songs to sit around and play.

Perhaps a cursory knowledge of what they ARE would be good, so at least you can communicate with other musicians, and perhaps pursue them at a later time, when your interest is peaked.

I'm totally into knowlege for knowledge sake, IF you have the time and interest. But, if you're even asking this question, then obviously your priorities are elsewhere (which is fine).

- jim

[jspax7]

[quote=jimmybcool]

But, I guess I agree that I need the foundation so 5 years from now I'm not still lost. I need to be able to play the scales and pentatonics and chords and recognize what key am in if I want to play with others. [quote]

Yes. A solid foundation makes everything easier. Theory is a core of knowledge that makes everything you want to play easier to understand.

[quote] Gosh. This is hard. [quote]

It's not as hard as you think. Practice using theory to analyze every tune you play. It will be your favorite tool. Don't worry about how long it may take. Enjoy the journey.

[tonezoneonline]

Some of this stuff just isn't that hard or takes that long.If you like the Allman Brothers Band,add a 4th to the pentatonic scale.than you have a hexatonic and it sounds like them.Not a big deal.Learning" the Modes" is not a big deal
and certainly opens up a lot of options for you.Every one looks at them differently though.I look at it as being able to play the major scales,in any key, anywhere on the neck and then add to that.

[jimmybcool]

OK. I shall give it another year of learning the basics. In truth I can deal with it cause I have TWO teachers.

One is teaching me theory and electric style lead guitar. The other is more of a learn a song and get up and perform it in front of a crowd at an open mike. More acoustic as well.

What the heck, I got all day every day if I just had the energy to practice more than 1 hour a day that would help.

Thanks for all the feedback. I'm on the right track and ned patience.

[moozak]

Gosh. This is hard. I thought all rock guitarists were drug addled undisciplined womanizing party monsters. I mean, that's why I started this :dude

they are!... they just happen to be able to play guitar too. :AOK

[scottlr]

For example Hendrix uses these chords with the thumb over the top in most of what he does and I can NOT get that right.


The textbook fingering for chords doesn't use the thumb at all. I am one of those guys whose thumb just won't go over the neck like that very easily. I just use the textbook fingerings instead. I don't think the thumb thing is really necessary to play those songs. Jimi and SRV just fingered it like that, but you don't have to.

As for keys and underwear, I think that is mostly for lead singers (per Eddie Murphy) LOL I always had to ask for the underwear, and never got a key. ;)

[Pointbreakd]

Some of this stuff just isn't that hard or takes that long.If you like the Allman Brothers Band,add a 4th to the pentatonic scale.than you have a hexatonic and it sounds like them.Not a big deal.Learning" the Modes" is not a big deal
and certainly opens up a lot of options for you.Every one looks at them differently though.I look at it as being able to play the major scales,in any key, anywhere on the neck and then add to that.


Ah-ha that's how I look at it too. IE the E Aeolin is G Major. etc etc. Makes life a hell of a lot easier for me but when I say this to some guitarists they look at me like I'm nuts. Yah I know the feel is different but its the same notes.

[clothwiring]

PS - who can name a single song in Locrian :crazy

Joe Satriani - One of the songs off his first album (maybe Hordes Of Locusts)

Yes, learn the modes and use what clicks with you. I've always felt it's more important to hear/play the feel the mode implies. The real chance that you're going to play Locrian is low. :) Get them down though because just understanding the concepts will help you with theory beyond them. Good starting point.

[sampleinajar]

My first reaction to this is that if you already know the major scale, then you know all of the 'modes' too. Your guitar teacher is right, that knowing what (and where) the tonic note is very important, and that is what differentiates these various modes.

From my experience teaching students, I found that it is very useful to understand some of why these modes are useful, for those interested in understanding these sorts of things and for those interested in being able to jam along with people playing various songs that you don't necessarily know.

For instance, it is useful to be able to recognize that the natural minor scale is the 6th (aeolian) mode. In other words it is the same as the major scale you are just starting on a different note. Understanding the chords that are dictated by this scale is also useful. For instance the iv chord in the natural minor scale is minor. Many, many rock and pop songs like to use a major IV chord. To do this, you need to raise the third of the iv chord a half-step. Making this change in the natural minor scale converts you into the dorian mode. A "rock" example of this would be jamming along in Em, you have two choices for the IV chord, Am and Amajor. The dorian mode fits the Amajor and the aeolian mode fits the Am. Why is this? Well E dorian is the same as D major, of which the diatonic chords are D, Em, F#m, G, A, Bm, C#dim, D. Notice how the Em and A major chords are part of this scale?

So, your probably very confused, but my approach with beginning intermediate students was always to stress:

1. Know all of the notes on the fretboard without hesitation. If you can't do this, forget the rest.
2. Know the major scale all over the fretboard.
3. Know the minor scale all over the fretboard (same thing as above)
4. Know the pentatonic scale all over the fretboard
5. Know how chords (triads) are constructed, and learn them all (start with the rock keys and expand).
6. Look at the relationship between the three scales above and their various modes. For instance, ever notice that if you superimpose the E minor and Emajor pentatonic scales that you get the E dorian mode? Lots of little observations like this can be made, and you will begin to see how chord progressions will dictate your note choices, and hence scale choices.

It just takes time. Devote 15 minutes a day to undistracted focus on the above concepts and you will be amzed at how much you have learned in a year.

Good luck in your journey!

Steve

note added - I just read everyone elses posts and realized that many of the concepts I discussed where already mentioned. Sorry! I would just end by saying that you don't have to choose learning modes OR learning fun music. Do a little of both. The one will help the other, trust me. 15 focused minutes a day on theory. Then rock out.

Have fun!

[drfrankencopter]

1. Know all of the notes on the fretboard without hesitation. If you can't do this, forget the rest.
2. Know the major scale all over the fretboard.
3. Know the minor scale all over the fretboard (same thing as above)
4. Know the pentatonic scale all over the fretboard
5. Know how chords (triads) are constructed, and learn them all (start with the rock keys and expand).
6. Look at the relationship between the three scales above and their various modes. For instance, ever notice that if you superimpose the E minor and Emajor pentatonic scales that you get the E dorian mode? Lots of little observations like this can be made, and you will begin to see how chord progressions will dictate your note choices, and hence scale choices.



Good advice, that I think I will try and follow....I'm curious though what you mean by minor scale in item #3? Do you mean natural minor (Aeolian), melodic minor, harmonic minor? I'm guessing you mean natural minor...but why treat it seperately, and not just as a mode of the major scale?

Cheers,

Kris

[sampleinajar]

Yes, I meant natural minor. I didn't necessarily mean to treat it 'seperately', but more as the first mode you should really learn in depth. The minor and major tonalities are just so central to everything and having these sounds ingrained in your ears is a great foundation. Also, seeing the relative major/minor relationships is also a really important thing to have under your belt.

The cool thing for me is that even after playing guitar for 25 years, I still am making new connections and looking at things differently. The instrument is relatively easy to play, but it takes a lifetime to master.

Hope that helps-

Steve

[shigihara]

Right now he is trying to get me to comprehend modes, how to navigate up and down th fretboard, and knowing where I am in relation to the "1" note at all times. I think he says "Playing guitar is knowing where the one note is" in his sleep.


Your teacher is right... and it's never too late to learn the basics.
Just remember... we all did learn to read/write/spell the alphabet.
Music is the one true universal language... :dude

[adamquek]

Your teacher is right... and it's never too late to learn the basics.
Just remember... we all did learn to read/write/spell the alphabet.
Music is the one true universal language... :dude

Hey Paul,

Fancy meeting you here :D

I second what Paul said. Only I'm still learning to read/write/spell in music :(

[Dana]

PS - who can name a single song in Locrian :crazy

That's like saying, 'Name a famous poem/speech that uses all verbs.'

[gainiac]

Ah-ha that's how I look at it too. IE the E Aeolin is G Major. etc etc. Makes life a hell of a lot easier for me but when I say this to some guitarists they look at me like I'm nuts. Yah I know the feel is different but its the same notes.

This is what I'm in the process of doing. I'd think it's much easier and especially more efficient just to know all 12 major scales and then just understand their particular modal application over a given chord.

I'm actual trying to build an excel chart illustrating these relationships just as a kind of visual feedback tool with the hopes I might see an even deeper underlying pattern which will make "forgetting about it" all that much easier.

[MGT]

I'm definitely not an expert but I have been playing modally for a relatively long time (or at least playing modes over power chords in a rock situation).

There are two basic approaches to understanding modes - one is the derivative approach mentioned above where you know that D Dorian or G Mixolydian is the C major scale. For me, I find it difficult to figure that out on the fly!! If I'm playing a standard that has a few ii-V-I's then the key centre will be changing quickly and I'm just not that good at getting that into my head & then translating it to my fingers before the chords have already gone by.

The other approach is to just use each mode as a scale on its own (I tend to do this). The key part to learning modes is the relationship between the mode and the chord that goes with it (ie, D Dorian over a Dmin7). I find it easier to relate the chord, scale and arpeggio this way.

Whatever works for you!

[ivers]

There are two basic approaches to understanding modes - one is the derivative approach mentioned above where you know that D Dorian or G Mixolydian is the C major scale. For me, I find it difficult to figure that out on the fly!! If I'm playing a standard that has a few ii-V-I's then the key centre will be changing quickly and I'm just not that good at getting that into my head & then translating it to my fingers before the chords have already gone by.

I might be representative of a third way then, as I used the derivative approach to learn modes, but my version doesn't need 'translation' like you describe, because I don't think modes when playing over functional harmony at all. But like you said, whatever works for you!

[Pointbreakd]

This is what I'm in the process of doing. I'd think it's much easier and especially more efficient just to know all 12 major scales and then just understand their particular modal application over a given chord.

I'm actual trying to build an excel chart illustrating these relationships just as a kind of visual feedback tool with the hopes I might see an even deeper underlying pattern which will make "forgetting about it" all that much easier.


Great idea. Feel free to send that excel sheet along. would be super helpful.

DanielSperlman@gmail.com

[drfrankencopter]

Modes have always been a mystery to me. Early on, I understood that they were just permutations of the major scale, and so I figured all I need to know is the major scale and I could work it out from there. Well, it works in theory, but not in practice for me.

In the end, what's helping for me (only getting back into modes this year) was a series on modes in Guitar Techniques magazine. It broke each mode down as a variation on either pentatonic major or minor (special exception for locrian mode though)...this approach makes a lot of sense to me. It also clued me in in terms of what notes really define the mode, and what notes want resolution.

I'm not an expert by any stretch, but that approach seems to be resonating with me.

Cheers,

Kris

[fyler]

the E Aeolin is G Major.
well, it is, and it isn't. the notes are the same, but their relation to the tonic differs according to the key. if a musical work is "in E minor" it's not simultaneously "in G major", even though the notes are the same. it's all about context.

[Pointbreakd]

well, it is, and it isn't. the notes are the same, but their relation to the tonic differs according to the key. if a musical work is "in E minor" it's not simultaneously "in G major", even though the notes are the same. it's all about context.

Very good point. However, this is just something I'm aware of. Lucky to have good ears I guess.


It's important to point out though that the literal notes are in fact the same.

[gainiac]

well, it is, and it isn't. the notes are the same, but their relation to the tonic differs according to the key. if a musical work is "in E minor" it's not simultaneously "in G major", even though the notes are the same. it's all about context.

That's why I always say, "Does a zebra have white stripes or black?" the answer being, "It depends on the lion".

[d l x r e v e r b]

A mode or any scale is just a suggested set of sounds for playing during a chord . In my experience as a player and instructor, many musicians playing modes or any scale pattern tend to remain confiined to the pattern rather than venturing outward, as if all the other notes no longer exist.

As a guitar instructor I always have de-emphasized scale patterns and physical hand patterns of any kind but rather emphasized the emotion of each of the 12 alphabet letter notes in relation to the chord's root note, regarding each note's dissonance and consonance as spices to add to the stew of a solo.

That being said,

1. Learn the Aeolian mode, which is just a fancy name for the relative minor scale played during a major chord. Much of music is based on playing the relative minor scale during a major chord, and in reality it is just an inversion of the chord's major scale . Same notes but played in a different order.

2. Learn the Dorian mode. This mode is the essence of Santana and much of jazz, especially Miles Davis' classic jazz album "Kind of Blue" widely regarded as the alltime best jazz record. Listening to The Allman Brothers I hear a lot of "Kind of Blue" although their most famous songs are based on the sunshine of the 'country hexatonic scale' .

3. Learn just the ' hot notes ' which give a mode its character.
For instance a Mixolydian mode is just a major scale with the 7th flatted.
Instead of learning the entire mode just know where the flat sevens are on the fretboard in relation to the root note of the current chord. Be sure to hit these notes more often than usual during the chord if wanting to sound Mixolydian. So many times someone will decide to play "Mixolydian mode ! " pattern during a solo but rarely land on any of the flat sevens, meaning the player is still just in the major scale but doesn't realize it.

4. If having a favorite chord, learn the mode which best accompanies the chord best. For instance if enjoying minor seventh chords learn all possible about the Phrygian mode.

Hope this helps,

d l x r e v e r b

[sampleinajar]

modal practise is a great way to learn the fretboard,
and can help remove "note blockages" from one's guitaristic field-of-vision.
on the other hand:
why not just do it, and find out?
no harm can ensue by increasing one's musical knowledge..... ever.
imo.
dt / spltrcl

All Excellent points!

Steve

[jimmybcool]

Wow. Too many great posts to respond to all of them. OK. I'll stick with them. Yesterday I made a connection that gave a glimmer of hope. I "thought" that there were different scale patterns for each mode. NOT. Same pattern. Different tonic note (nice phrase that).

So all I have to do is learn a single major scale pattern and learn to know where the tonic note is across the fretboard.

Easier said than done. But lots easier than different patterns for each mode (which is why I was gonna give it up).

[saxmanjack]

Learning to play major scales all over the neck will set you apart from 99% of guitarists, who use mostly just the blues scale when soloing.
Speaking of blues -- try using mixolydian, especially over the V chord. This is an "easy to hear" application of using a mode...

[ivers]

One thing that helped me, was to work on major scales in relation to tunes from the Real Book, and get the keys most commonly used down first. This way, the task became less abstract, and it was easier to remember, when I could use the chords of the tunes to remind myself of where the scale notes were.

[ivers]

Here's a great ear training site I highly recommend, and there's a mode recognition exercise there as well, which is quite fun.

http://earplane.com/modules/earplane_main/

[sampleinajar]

Here's a great ear training site I highly recommend, and there's a mode recognition exercise there as well, which is quite fun.

http://earplane.com/modules/earplane_main/

Great site! Thanks man!

Steve

[gennation]

I would like to enter this document I wrote regarding modes as scales that imply chords.

http://lessons.mikedodge.com/lessons/MusicTheory/Diatonic/DiatonicTOC.htm

Many people start by looking for the "what" as it pertains to modes...then, they explore the "how" to using modes...I like to show a long lasting use of modes by showing the "when and where" to using modes.

This is a long read and is "part 1" of the document. Part 2 & 3 will be available in due time.

Since guitarist are shown many confusing thoughts on modes, I hope this shows what a modes itself is. The more you look at chords the more obvious this "modes" thing is...and it ends up being very far from the way most people learn them "off the streets" as dots on fretboard drawings...they actually mean something and say something.

While it's only one observation to millions of ways to comprend music, I hope it makes some sense to someone.

[Tim Bowen]

Like hammers and screwdrivers - modes, scales, and arps are tools. I've mostly looked at such as being intervals in relation to a basic root tonality, in addition to how each interacts with the other chord changes. Over-simplification on my part, surely.

What's interesting to me is how the perception of any given harmonic device is so differently realized, and in actuality, practically applied; for example, the "lydian dominant scale" - we can view it as a melodic minor scale up a fifth from the root of a dominant chord, or as a mixolydian mode with a raised 4th/11th, or we can simply relate each interval as it applies to the root, en route to some other place...

Seriously, check it each way, and be open to the different ways in which phrasing presents itself. And don't forget to check Wynton Kelly's phrases on Miles Davis' Freddie the Freeloader.

[gennation]

Like hammers and screwdrivers - modes, scales, and arps are tools. I've mostly looked at such as being intervals in relation to a basic root tonality, in addition to how each interacts with the other chord changes. Over-simplification on my part, surely.

What's interesting to me is how the perception of any given harmonic device is so differently realized, and in actuality, practically applied; for example, the "lydian dominant scale" - we can view it as a melodic minor scale up a fifth from the root of a dominant chord, or as a mixolydian mode with a raised 4th/11th, or we can simply relate each interval as it applies to the root, en route to some other place...

Seriously, check it each way, and be open to the different ways in which phrasing presents itself. And don't forget to check Wynton Kelly's phrases on Miles Davis' Freddie the Freeloader.

His solo on Freddie is The Gospel According to Wynton from the good book Kind of Blue.

That solo opened my eyes to a lot of things.

In jazz "theory", I find modes to be such a small part of it. But in later jazz music I find them to be very important as a basis for harmonic movement or even in some cases...harmonic stagnation.

But, unless you are playing some true droning type modal music, you never REALLY just use one scale when you play...it makes for great exercises, but doesn't always make for good music.

Also, a lot of time (like your lydian dominant example)...the scale on it's own doesn't always mean much, but mixed with other scales and depending the chord movement (cadence) it says A LOT. There's many other "theories" to compliment the movements, but it's really more harmonic than it is melodic...or a linear scale run...it's movement.

[Lucidology]

Some good stuff here ..

[guitbeef]

if it's a mystery to your mind (but you don't want it to remain so),
it won't necessarily be a mystery to your ear.
you could simply try this:
always starting and ending with a "C", play in 3 octaves up-and-back:
the Ionian mode of the C-Major scale (from C-to-C), then
the Dorian mode of the Bb-Major scale (from C-to-C), then
the Phrygian mode of the Ab-Major scale, then
etc.

before switching from one scale to the other, it may be critical to get *accustomed* to the sound of the scale --- maybe, even, improvise with it (and only it, in order to better hear the color of the scale).

as well, it can be very useful to do this in modal "leaps", ie:
switching from the Ionian mode of the C-Major scale (from C-to-C) to its most farflung relative, ie the Locrian mode of the Db-Major scale, again from C-to-C.

this is simply a possible exercise for one's ear, in order to become inwardly familiar w/the scalar colors of the modes, not a religion, philosophy or high science.

dt / spltrcl

I agree totally. Years ago when I was tackling modes and such I would start the typical way of C Ionian (C to C)- then D Dorian (D to D) etc, etc, and got numb to it all by Mixolydian. While I still think that's a great way to understand HOW modes are derived it doesn't do a lot of good for the ear, but Mr. Torn's exercise does, and IMO that's where it's really at.

[guitbeef]

This is so old school...

Politicians are now the the kings of the 'undisciplined womanizing party monsters', and lawyers have all the best drugs.


In all seriousness - relax man, you've only been playing two years? This is a race that goes to the marathon runner, not the sprinter. Learn at whatever pace it comes, find lots of people to play with and have fun.

Wow, another bad-to-the-bone post! This thread is worth bumping many times over for these words alone- great advice in general, not just pertaining to modes.

[Jon]

I think the key thing here is to ENJOY WHAT YOU ARE DOING!

Different musicians end up with different skills because of this - guys like Steve Vai had intense practice regimes for years because that was what they enjoyed doing. Other guys focused on learning lots of songs, writing their own material & developing their own style or making the most from some simple musical techniques & theory, because that's what they enjoyed doing. It's supposed to be fun. Don't force yourself to do something you don't enjoy because you think you ought to be able to do it since someone else can. What you must be able to do though is enjoy what you can already do! If you DO want to be a professional musician then you ARE in competiton with other players and you do need to have a good understanding of theory and well-developed technique to enhance your employment opportunities. However, if you are playing for your own enjoyment, then remember that that is what you are doing.

I'm not advocating giving up on anything that doesn't give instant gratification because it's a bit tough, but if you really aren't enjoying something then stop doing it - if your teacher has made you aware of it then you can always come back to it at a later date. If you can't see a use for a piece of theory or technique, then you are probably not ready for it - after a while you may come back to it and it suddenly ties in with something that you are already doing. e.g. if you are a rock player you could learn the 5 main fingering patterns for the natural minor scale up the neck - this may be instantly useful as you can combine these with pentatonic shapes to allow you to solo all over the neck. After you become comfortable doing this and it becomes part of what you do, it's a lot easier to, for example, start using the dorian mode to add a slightly different flavour (chances are you are already doing it by then, but didn't realise that by changing that one note, you were actually playing the dorian mode).

One of the key things about practicing that I don't think gets stressed enough is practicing SLOWLY! Not just slowish for a couple of times and then speeding back up to the speed you think it should be. But playing really slowly with a metronome for quite some time, at a speed where you can play perfectly - and that means getting all your fingers in the right place with all the notes sounding clean, using just enough effort to hold them down, with no unnecessary tension in any part of your body (& no holding your breath!!). Your muscle memory learns from every movement you make, so if you keep making mistakes because you are trying to play too fast, that is what your fingers are learning to do! i.e. every fluffed note or finger not placed perfectly is moving you further and further away from your goal.

Another thing that might help is reading "Zen Guitar' by Phillip Sudo - very good for getting you out of that "I SHOULD be able to do play in a certain way because other players can" mindset and into a "this is MY music...what do I want to create?"

Overall I think the players that make the most advances are the ones who really enjoy practicing for it's own sake. I really like taking small scale patterns and playing them very slowly whilst concentrating on what all my muscles are doing - it's a bit like meditation for me. If you can find some way of enjoying your practicing more, then you will start to advance quicker.

Planning your practicing also helps - write out a list of all the things that you need to work on and assign a certain amount of time to each e.g. 10 minutes practicing thumb over the neck chords, then 15 minutes connecting pentatonic shapes up the neck etc. If you do this every day it really helps with your progress and forces you to work on the bits you might otherwise leave out.

Hope this helps.

[lapis]

Just remember that each major mode contains a major pentatonic scale. (5 notes) The other 2 notes come from the key that you are in. Likewise, minor modes contain a minor pentatonic, with the other 2 notes coming from the key.

Here's an example:

A minor pentatonic= ACDEG
in the key of C, add B and F. Aeolian mode

A minor pentatonic=ACDEG
in the key of G, add B and F#. Dorian mode

A minor pentatonic=ACDEG
in the key of F, add Bb and F. Phrygian mode

I'm a beginner, could you explain this a little more? What if you never play B, F, Bb, or F#? Is the key ambiguous, or is it A minor?

[lapis]

I might be representative of a third way then, as I used the derivative approach to learn modes, but my version doesn't need 'translation' like you describe, because I don't think modes when playing over functional harmony at all. But like you said, whatever works for you!
Can you elaborate on what "functional harmony" means? Or point me to a book that decribes it, preferably with examples to play. Thanks!

[wavey63]

Knowledge is NEVER a bad thing.:RoCkIn

[Mike T]

I've been playing now for almost 2 years and still can't really rip up the fretboard.

I've been playing for 40+ bro and still can't "rip it up" like I'd like to, hang in there.... I was playing a good 8 years and had done lots of road work before I found any value in theory or modes. I started out transcribing Hendrix and Clapton and Bloomfield in the mid 60's. If it's too much for you now and you just want to play then just play.... Don't make it so tedious that you burn out and say screw it and give it up. If you're meant to study modes and technique, you will. Don't get me wrong, it is invaluable knowledge that depending on the direction you go could be the difference. And the earlier you learn it the better off you'll be. Actually, the most you learn from studying that stuff is how much there is that you don't know...it's a lifelong study. But don't pursue it at the expense of losing the edge you get from just playing. That is the most important thing because if you lose that, you might as well become a shoe salesman.... :AOK

[jspax7]

I'm a beginner, could you explain this a little more? What if you never play B, F, Bb, or F#? Is the key ambiguous, or is it A minor?

If you just play an Am chord, and just play the pentatonic, the key is ambiguous, or you could use all 3 modes.

If you use another chord, a key is implied, and that's where modes can be useful.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jspax7 http://www.thegearpage.net/board/images/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://www.thegearpage.net/board/showthread.php?p=1540985#post1540985)
Just remember that each major mode contains a major pentatonic scale. (5 notes) The other 2 notes come from the key that you are in. Likewise, minor modes contain a minor pentatonic, with the other 2 notes coming from the key.

Here's an example:

A minor pentatonic= ACDEG
in the key of C, add B and F. Aeolian mode

A minor pentatonic=ACDEG
in the key of G, add B and F#. Dorian mode

A minor pentatonic=ACDEG
in the key of F, add Bb and F. Phrygian mode


If you stick with ACDEG, it's A minor pentatonic. I'm assuming you know the minor pentatonic scale. (?)

The A minor chord can belong to 3 different keys. (Sticking with diatonic theory here.)

1. C major. (A minor is the 6 chord) Am Aeolian Mode: A B C D E F G (Dm and F chords have an F note, Em and G have a B note.)

2. G major. (A minor is the 2 chord) Am Dorian Mode: A B C D E F# G (Bm chord has the B and F#, Dmaj has an F#. G and Em both have B notes.)

3. F major. (A minor is the 3 chord) Am Phrygian Mode: A Bb C D E F G (Gm and Bb chords have a Bb note. F and Dm have an F note)

For now, just record some 2 chord vamps, and match the note to the chord. Application is the key to understanding it. Play the Am chord first. Start with the Am pent. at the 5th fret. (Everyone seems to know that position)

It can also be helpful to write the notes on a fretboard diagram.

Try it, and let me know if it works for you.

[gennation]

I know this is an old post but...

a guitarist learning "Modes" most of the time is about Memorizing Fretboard Patterns, showing how one long scale connects across the whole fretboard using all strings, or how these new seven scale boxes can be used to create chords, and how the scale somehow fits these newly created chords...and best of all...all these really wild names that correspond to the "pattern" ;)

This is all great for memorizing...but really doesn't have a lot to with "modes" because there's usually one BIG aspect of learning modes that gets pushed to the side, that's...Modal Music.

Too many guitarist take these scales and then run them against all the music they've been playing up to this point...FORCING Modes into a progression. This really isn't "Modes".

Without learning something about Modal Music the guitarist falls into a couple of VERY common questions/practices of confusion...

1. "Well, when you play THIS chord, you play THIS scale..."

2. "Well since all THESE chords are from the same Key, why do I need to think about a DIFFERENT scale for each chord when they are all the SAME scale relative to each other?"

Since most players are coming out of the Pentatonic scales into "Modes" they tend to play songs/progressions that relate together in a way that you can utilize ONE Pentatonic scale over the whole progression. Then they run into this idea that they have to play a new scale for every chord in a song/progression.

Most of the time music can be broken down to "functional music" and "modal music".

In functional music there's many chords and a group, if not all, of the chords are related to a Key, and the chords "function" within that Key. You CAN think Modes part of the time over this if you want, but a lot of people also just think "Key" in this case...and "play in Key".

Some songs move from Key to Key, and the musician needs to move from Key to Key also when playing over it.

But there are MANY other concepts that follow Functional Music, like substitutions, alterations, chord functions in general, etc, etc...so, "playing in Key" can entail a lot more than just playing up and down one scale exclusively and say you're playing in Key.

With Modal music there are usually less chords. And what chords you have are usually held out for a while. So, the scale has time to grow over the chord. Sure the whole "Chord Scale" thing comes into play...but a song could have fewer chords that last longer, and the few chords it does have might not be related Key wise, this is the case for most Modal Music.

Some Modal music cruises along at a good pace, but still the chords are not directly related Diatonically, so you still need a new scale per chord but need to be much quicker (ala John Mclaughlin or something).

As a musician, even though I learn all those "Modal Patterns", I try to narrow down when I should be concerned about playing Functionally in Key or playing Modally.

A few things to keep in your back pocket...

1. Modes are played over "I chords"...not II chords or V chords etc..., but "I chords".

2. The longer a chord is played the more likely you will have time to play modally over it.

3. The more chords in a song that are related via a Diatonic Key, the less likely you are to use modes. Since more Diatonically related chords generally pull your ear to the Major or Minor Key areas, which creates more of a functional sound.

4. Regardless of how many chords are played, if the chords are not related to each other by the same Major or Minor Key, start utilizing modes to connect your lines from chord to chord...essentially thinking of each chord as a "I chord" since they aren't related.

You as a musician need to know when you can "think" modally and when not to. If you can find these tunes, listen to how they are very different from each other based only on the "approach" of the tune. One list is approached modally and the other functionally...

Modally:

So What
Maiden Voyage

Functionally:

Tune Up
Stella By Starlight

Remember, whether they stay in one Key or not doesn't help you decipher modes. If the chords within the tune function as Keys, it's less Modal, if the chords function more like they are "standing alone", not related directly by Key, then they are more Modal.

In each of the Modal tunes each chord is a "I chord". In each of the Functional tunes each group of chords belongs to a Key, and each chord has it's own function, even though the Key changes through the song. They move from one Key to the next.

Sorry for the length and this is only the tip of the iceberg :)

[Lucidology]

I know this is an old post but... :)


It's a timeless post Mike...
As is anything you ever have to say about making music ...

All this great advice hidden in the archives of TGP needs to be resurrected from time to time ...

& a lot of that advice comes from you Mr. Gennation ... :AOK

[hacker]

Mike,

Can you explain what you mean by "Modes are played over I chords."?

If, for example, you play a certain mode over a two chord (say B to A) jam, which would be the I chord?

[gainiac]

Mike,

Can you explain what you mean by "Modes are played over I chords."?

If, for example, you play a certain mode over a two chord (say B to A) jam, which would be the I chord?

Both would be treated as I chords.

[hacker]

Yes, thats what i thought. So you have, essentially, a shifting tonal center. And if a two chord vamp, such as B->A occurs in the instrumental part of the song, chances are the "real" I chord will have been established already.

But, if no I chord has been established, as in the case of songs with just a one or two chord vamp, then you can blow modes over the whole thing.

[gainiac]

Yes, thats what i thought. So you have, essentially, a shifting tonal center. And if a two chord vamp, such as B->A occurs in the instrumental part of the song, chances are the "real" I chord will have been established already.

But, if no I chord has been established, as in the case of songs with just a one or two chord vamp, then you can blow modes over the whole thing.


Yup........like what was stated above the mode you're trying to establish becomes more crystalline if copious time is spent vamping each chord............

[Chris Rice]

Mike,

Can you explain what you mean by "Modes are played over I chords."?

If, for example, you play a certain mode over a two chord (say B to A) jam, which would be the I chord?

Now, I hear this as a I-VII change in B Mixolydian. One tonal center, no shifting.
It's Tequila, by the way.


Assuming this is not a small part of something else which would put it in a different context.

[davya]

Why do we want to make modes into something so complicated? They are great to learn and get the different colors of sound in your ear. Dorian (like Santana) is a very cool color and Mixolydian (Jerry Garcia) is a nice color. If you are playing say an Am7/D9 vamp I would be thinking Dorian the whole way...why bother to think D mixolydian? Its the same notes. I am not going to be thinking three separate modes over a iim7 V7 Imaj7! It's just a major tonal center. The ii V is just leading to the I major etc...

Just learn the major scale and you got it! The harmony of each note is the same weather you start from the 2nd degeree or the 3rd degree or the 6th degree. It's really that simple.

Maybe my simple mind needs to think that way:)!

[voodoochile]

yes! I am not a theory guy myself, and just learned them after years of playing. It has unlocked my ability to create, as well as understand other people's music.

Kinda like putting on shoes when you go for a hike- you don't have to, but if you do- it is a lot easier, more fun, anf you can go places you never could without them.

[jzucker]

PS - who can name a single song in Locrian :crazy

Certainly none in pop music but listen to some mclaughlin, shawn lane, coltrane, etc.

I think the answer is that if you're a casual player and not interested in "mastering" the instrument, learning modes is probably not the best usage of your time. You'd be better off transcribing stuff that turns you on. In fact, no matter whether you want to master the instrument or not, transcription is an excellent and one of the most tried-and-true learning methods.