Vintage Noiseless pups sound a bit dark

[ntannarong]

Hi all,

I've got a Clapton Strat with the Vintage Noiseless pups and they sound a bit dark to me. I had another Clapton Strat with the Lace Sensor pups before and they sounded more glassy and clear (but a bit sterile for my liking).

The VN pups are really bassy and it seems like they lack treble, especially when I roll the volume down a little bit. I know the guitar's midboost brings out the mids a lot and darkens the tone a bit, but even with the midboost rolled down or off, it still sounds pretty warm. Any ideas?

[mybusinessmy]

Noiseless pickups never have all the Glass, quack, chime that traditional single coils have. You will have to put up with some sort of tonal compromise. The Vintage Noiseless pups were among the worst I heard...Kinman or Dimarzio Areas seem to be closest to the strat attack and sound.

[lbw]

Get some Lindy Fralin Vintage Hots. Nothing has sounded better in my Clapton.

[Jack The Riffer]

Lower the low E side of the p/u where the p/u cover is level with the top of the adjustment screw and keep the high E side higher. This and maybe just a wee tiny bit of extra treble on your amp should do the trick. Got a coupla strats with the same p/u's and have no problem getting that strat sound.

[AaeCee]

And the more you turn up the boost, the more you'll need to turn up the tone. Strangely, using a boost pedal with your already boosted guitar will really tighten up the sound, as most pedals like that have a good bit of natural compression. A compressor works well too. I get great tone out of my Clapton Strat by using all of the above. AC

[Jack The Riffer]

And the more you turn up the boost, the more you'll need to turn up the tone. Strangely, using a boost pedal with your already boosted guitar will really tighten up the sound, as most pedals like that have a good bit of natural compression. A compressor works well too. I get great tone out of my Clapton Strat by using all of the above. AC

Got to finally demo a Clapton strat (reg production, not a CS) and even with a brief in-store spin it made a great impression on me. Damn you Fender:)

[ntannarong]

Depressed at the last fret, the bass side of the pickup measures 4/32" from the bottom of the 6th string to the top of the pole piece and the treble side measures 3/32" from the bottom of the 1st string to the top of the pole piece.

[Jack The Riffer]

Depressed at the last fret, the bass side of the pickup measures 4/32" from the bottom of the 6th string to the top of the pole piece and the treble side measures 3/32" from the bottom of the 1st string to the top of the pole piece.

Toss the ruler and just go with your ear cuz you'll drive yourself nuts measuring and you just might miss 'that' spot by thinking it has to be within a certain distance.

[peachead1071]

I'm a pretty big fan of the Samarium Cobalt noiseless. The vintage noiseless don't do it for me

[1radicalron]

1) Check the Value of the Pot's. I reccomend at least 250k - but 500k are better for noiseless Pup's.
2) Replace the Ceramic Disc Capacitor with a high Quality .047 Hovland Musicap or Jensen Angela Paper oil cap. This will ad a Dramatic improvement in Clarity and usable Tone control. The ceramic cap's bleed treble off and make Guitars sound dull.
3) Pickup height. - Lower the Bass side of the Pickups.
4) Replace strings - Noithing sounds nicer than brand new strings on a guitar!!!!!

[twferrill]

IMO Fender's Vintage Noiseless pickups don't nail the strat tone. In fact, if we're talking Fender pickups, I think almost all of Fender's non-Noisless pickups sound better than the Vintage Noisless. I must add that noise has never bothered me and I'd much prefer noise over tone loss.

[michaelprice83]

Yes, its official, Fender's Vintage Noiseless pickups have the worst reputation ever.....

[Rob DiStefano]

I've yet to hear noiseless "single coil" pups sound like true single coil pups. Some of the better ones do come close, but no cigar - they are, after all, what they are ... humbuckers.

[suttree]

Yes, its official, Fender's Vintage Noiseless pickups have the worst reputation ever.....

i have them in my tele, and i get tons of compliments on my tone. i had debated changing them, but as the old saying goes, "if it ain't broke..."

[mybusinessmy]

i have them in my tele, and i get tons of compliments on my tone. i had debated changing them, but as the old saying goes, "if it ain't broke..."

That saying went out the window when I replaced my SCN pups with 2 Suhrs and a SD JB humbucker. :) NOW I truly have authentic, vintage strat tone. :dude

[michaelprice83]

i have them in my tele, and i get tons of compliments on my tone. i had debated changing them, but as the old saying goes, "if it ain't broke..."

Well, do you really think if your guitar was A-B tested with some really nice hand wound single coils and there were real musicians present to comment on your tones, that the Vintage Noiseless would stand a chance?

[mybusinessmy]

Well, do you really think if your guitar was A-B tested with some really nice hand wound single coils and there were real musicians present to comment on your tones, that the Vintage Noiseless would stand a chance?


Yes, that is an excellent point. Compare Vintage Noiseless pickups against Lollars, Suhrs or Fralins, and the tone contest will definitely be over. I'm sure some guys get compliments on their Dimarzio VV's, but in the end, they sound like toys compared to the real thing.

[ntannarong]

I don't mean to be rude, but I really didn't ask for opinions on which pickups are better than which or who makes the best Strat pickups. The Vintage Noiseless pups are good for me WHEN I am able to set them up properly. I know this because I have played other Clapton Strats with the same pickups and was pretty impressed.

I started this thread because I needed advice on a certain product. I'm not in the market shopping for other pickups or else I would've stated that and asked for recommendations. Sorry. Now if I could please get some real help.

[dharmafool]

I started this thread because I needed advice on a certain product. I'm not in the market shopping for other pickups or else I would've stated that and asked for recommendations. Sorry. Now if I could please get some real help.


It seems 1RadicalRon has offered some real help (and I quote):

1) Check the Value of the Pots. I reccommend at least 250k - but 500k are better for noiseless Pups.

2) Replace the Ceramic Disc Capacitor with a high Quality .047 Hovland Musicap or Jensen Angela Paper oil cap. This will ad a Dramatic improvement in Clarity and usable Tone control. The ceramic cap's bleed treble off and make Guitars sound dull.

3) Pickup height. - Lower the Bass side of the Pickups.

4) Replace strings - Nothing sounds nicer than brand new strings on a guitar!!!!!

I point this out as someone who happily plays an Am Dlx Strat with Vintage Noiseless pickups and Clapton-model features such as blocked trem and onboard preamp.

I'm sure that all the handmade pickups mentioned in this thread produce marvellous tones, but ntannarong likes his existing pickups and wants some help tweaking their setup.

One thing I like about VNs is that they are very uncool around here. :rolleyes:


http://www.thegearpage.net/board/images/buttons/quote.gif (http://www.thegearpage.net/board/newreply.php?do=newreply&p=1551279)

[Jack The Riffer]

1) Check the Value of the Pot's. I reccomend at least 250k - but 500k are better for noiseless Pup's.
2) Replace the Ceramic Disc Capacitor with a high Quality .047 Hovland Musicap or Jensen Angela Paper oil cap. This will ad a Dramatic improvement in Clarity and usable Tone control. The ceramic cap's bleed treble off and make Guitars sound dull.
3) Pickup height. - Lower the Bass side of the Pickups.
4) Replace strings - Noithing sounds nicer than brand new strings on a guitar!!!!!

Hey! I helped too!!:BITCH :)

Lower the low E side of the p/u where the p/u cover is level with the top of the adjustment screw and keep the high E side higher. This and maybe just a wee tiny bit of extra treble on your amp should do the trick. Got a coupla strats with the same p/u's and have no problem getting that strat sound.

[GuitarTone]

Yes, that is an excellent point. Compare Vintage Noiseless pickups against Lollars, Suhrs or Fralins, and the tone contest will definitely be over. I'm sure some guys get compliments on their Dimarzio VV's, but in the end, they sound like toys compared to the real thing.

Lol...

Obviously you haven't listened to any of HarryJ's clips.

[michaelprice83]

Lol...

Obviously you haven't listened to any of HarryJ's clips.

Yeah, we've listened. He's a very good player and his clips all sound nice. I think we're talking about a more head to head, same guitar, same amp, no pedals etc. comparison. Nobody is saying that a great player can't possibly sound good with a certain pickup. I wouldn't discredit the virtues of hand wound single coil pickups based on some cat getting a good sound with stacked coils.

[SonicGator]

I've got a Player's Deluxe Strat with the Fender Vintage Noiseless pickups;the bridge pickup has a decent sound, but the middle and neck positions are really bassy and muddy to me as well. The Player's Deluxe Strat has a push-button that activates the bridge pickup in all positions, so I've found that just leaving the bridge pickup "on" all of the time helps.

I still prefer the sound of my SD APS-II single-coils, even with the hum, but hey, if the pickups are good enough for Clapton, who am I to complain?

[michaelprice83]

I've got a Player's Deluxe Strat with the Fender Vintage Noiseless pickups;the bridge pickup has a decent sound, but the middle and neck positions are really bassy and muddy to me as well. The Player's Deluxe Strat has a push-button that activates the bridge pickup in all positions, so I've found that just leaving the bridge pickup "on" all of the time helps.

I still prefer the sound of my SD APS-II single-coils, even with the hum, but hey, if the pickups are good enough for Clapton, who am I to complain?


Does Eric actually play those pickups? That's too bad. There are certainly better humbucking single coils out there if that's what he insists on using. Maybe there's something in his endorsement deal. Just a thought.....

[SonicGator]

Does Eric actually play those pickups? That's too bad. There are certainly better humbucking single coils out there if that's what he insists on using. Maybe there's something in his endorsement deal. Just a thought.....

I don't know if he actually plays them or not...I was just kidding with that comment. Doesn't the Jeff Beck Strat have them as well, just modded to his specs? Clapton may have custom versions made for his.

I don't think there is anything wrong with the pickups, they're just not my favorite, but they may be magic to someone else. Actually, the guitar I have those in I think would sound great with the John Mayer Big Dipper pups, but I haven't seen those for sale individually yet.

[Jack The Riffer]

Does Eric actually play those pickups? That's too bad. There are certainly better humbucking single coils out there if that's what he insists on using. Maybe there's something in his endorsement deal. Just a thought.....

Oh I dunno, maybe Eric likes them and he didn't feel the need to poll guitar forums?

[michaelprice83]

Oh I dunno, maybe Eric likes them and he didn't feel the need to poll guitar forums?

yeah. i guess every pickup has its own sound and maybe, just maybe, every pickup out there is worthy of its place in someone's guitar. its just hard to believe that if EC tested the best pickups out there today and walk away with some cheaply made mass produced pickup. I mean, the guy is fairly fanatical about his amps and speakers. ah well, my $0.02 is spent, i'm out.

[Jack The Riffer]

yeah. i guess every pickup has its own sound and maybe, just maybe, every pickup out there is worthy of its place in someone's guitar. its just hard to believe that if EC tested the best pickups out there today and walk away with some cheaply made mass produced pickup. I mean, the guy is fairly fanatical about his amps and speakers. ah well, my $0.02 is spent, i'm out.

Best according to who? Online guitar forums?

[HarryJ]

Yeah, we've listened. He's a very good player and his clips all sound nice. I think we're talking about a more head to head, same guitar, same amp, no pedals etc. comparison. Nobody is saying that a great player can't possibly sound good with a certain pickup. I wouldn't discredit the virtues of hand wound single coil pickups based on some cat getting a good sound with stacked coils.


I realize this thread is about addressing the original posters questions and the Fender Noiseless, but I thought I'd throw in my 1.5 cents :-)

I do agree (and have always stated) that no stacked pup will sound 100% single. I do however feel the technology is constantly improving. The new Area '58 are substantially closer than the virtual vintage's.

I like to use compression at times, as we know this will raise the hum threshold many times. For me it's pretty simple, being able to actually use the guitar in a club with noise inducing lights etc.., or leaving the strat at home.
I realize folks have been using singles live for years. I jus' can't do it. The hum substantially interferes with the controllable harmonic feedback that I like to use, and is just plain annoying

Harry Jacobson
www.harryj.net (http://www.harryj.net)

[michaelprice83]

Best according to who? Online guitar forums?

aww, man i wanted to be done with this discussion. ;) take what HarryJ said about the technology of noiseless pups constantly improving and apply that to the debate. The Fender VN are a dated design. There are several high end manufacturers, Kinman, for example who could explain to you why this discussion is silly.

[Jack The Riffer]

aww, man i wanted to be done with this discussion. ;) take what HarryJ said about the technology of noiseless pups constantly improving and apply that to the debate. The Fender VN are a dated design. There are several high end manufacturers, Kinman, for example who could explain to you why this discussion is silly.

The strat and telecaster are dated designs too.

[HeeHaw]

Toss the ruler and just go with your ear cuz you'll drive yourself nuts measuring and you just might miss 'that' spot by thinking it has to be within a certain distance.

+1.

I did the same thing with my EJ strat untill I found the sweet spot. Turns out they are a lot lower now than what the factory had them set at.

[CAFeathers]

I had a conversation with my friend and noted pickup maker Bill Lawrence (www.billlawrence.com (http://www.billlawrence.com) designer of Fender SCN's) about pickup height and tone. He told me to use a starting point and fine tune from there. He recommended using two nickels stacked on top of the bass side pole piece, depress the low E at the last fret and adjust so the string touches the nickels. On the treble side use only one nickle on top of the pole piece and depress the high e at the last fret. Adjust to taste from there.
The farther away the pickup is from the string the less output you will have but you'll also have more sustain. The closer the pickup to the string the more output but less sustain.

[mybusinessmy]

The VN pups are really bassy and it seems like they lack treble, especially when I roll the volume down a little bit. I know the guitar's midboost brings out the mids a lot and darkens the tone a bit, but even with the midboost rolled down or off, it still sounds pretty warm. Any ideas?


This is your original post, not sure what you wanted help with, other than understanding why you have the undesirable sound, hence why a crap load of people told you you were dealing with an outdated design.

Lol...

Obviously you haven't listened to any of HarryJ's clips.

Yes, I have, and I have complimented him on his playing, he also seems to get the best sound out of them as possible. What's more is that I have personally owned 3 of the Virtual Vintage pickups in the series, and have A/B'd them against real singles. The Areas are definitely an improvement in sound over the VV's, though.

The hum substantially interferes with the controllable harmonic feedback that I like to use, and is just plain annoying

Most of that problem is solved with a Suhr Backplate. It frees you up to use any pup you want, within the DC range requirements.
It is expensive, but definitely well worth it, IMO.

[HarryJ]

Quote:
Originally Posted by guitartone
Lol...

Obviously you haven't listened to any of HarryJ's clips.



Yes, I have, and I have complimented him on his playing, he also seems to get the best sound out of them as possible. What's more is that I have personally owned 3 of the Virtual Vintage pickups in the series, and have A/B'd them against real singles. The Areas are definitely an improvement in sound over the VV's, though.
-------------

Thanks by the way :-)
H

[brianf]

Toss the ruler and just go with your ear cuz you'll drive yourself nuts measuring and you just might miss 'that' spot by thinking it has to be within a certain distance.

Agreed. The only thing that matters is your ear.

I have the original set of Vintage Noiseless in my 2000 Am Dlx Fat Strat.

I have had a few other pups in and out of that guitar. As far as noiseless go they are the best I have heard. Specialy using the neck only position it truly gives you the "Strat Sound" but without the noise.

brianf

[Mr.Hanky]

EC hasn't had good tone since he picked up a Fender so what is all the hubub about?

[ntannarong]

This is your original post, not sure what you wanted help with, other than understanding why you have the undesirable sound, hence why a crap load of people told you you were dealing with an outdated design.

From what I originally posted, I don't think I mentioned anything about asking for suggestions on other pickups I could try. I was asking for some technical advice on pickups that I already have and enjoy a bit.

I know there are some people who have actually helped and I very much appreciate it. Thanks to all those that helped.

I understand that the TBX control uses a 250k pot. Is that right, though, because it is basically 2 stacked pots? If I change it to a normal 500k pot, would that help? Or just a regular 250k pot?

[suttree]

Well, do you really think if your guitar was A-B tested with some really nice hand wound single coils and there were real musicians present to comment on your tones, that the Vintage Noiseless would stand a chance?
well, unfortunately, no real musicians there, just lil' ol' me. :puh

yes i think they'd stand a chance. the tone of a guitar is a combination of a ton of variables, most important being the player. i have never had a problem getting a nice, fat, round spanking tone out of the SCNs. maybe once i learn to play up to your standards, i'll start having problems. sheesh.

as to the original post, well you opened a can of worms, so the thread got highjacked. i don't know that i have a ton of advice to offer, i'm happy with the tone of mine. i use premium quality cables and keep the volume touched back ever so slightly. why not add an EQ or an aural exciter? you should be able to rent or borrow examples of these, and see if they help.

[mybusinessmy]

From what I originally posted, I don't think I mentioned anything about asking for suggestions on other pickups I could try. I was asking for some technical advice on pickups that I already have and enjoy a bit.

I know there are some people who have actually helped and I very much appreciate it. Thanks to all those that helped.

I understand that the TBX control uses a 250k pot. Is that right, though, because it is basically 2 stacked pots? If I change it to a normal 500k pot, would that help? Or just a regular 250k pot?

I'm not sure what the TBX is exactly, but if it is actually a 250k,
switching to 500k will boost the high frequencies, giving you more treble. Some feel this comes at the expense of "warmth".

Other than switching pots, treble boosters or exciters (great ideas from Suttree), EQ's, I think that pretty much is all you can do with the pups.

I believe that is why people starting suggesting other pickups, but I would definitely try those options before even considering swapping pups.

[michaelprice83]

The strat and telecaster are dated designs too.

Noiseless pups are evolving and getting better bit by bit, everyone who has played/owned them would agree. When I said "dated designs" I was referring to hum canceling singles which are still evolving and have made progress since the VN's came out. What you said about strats and teles being dated was irrelevant and you probably should've realized that when you posted.

[mybusinessmy]

The strat and telecaster are dated designs too.

Dated? I prefer the terms "original" and "innovative".

Tell me the name of an original guitar that has been copied more times over than a Stratocaster, and I will be surprised.

Like Michael, I am unsure of what that has to do with Noiseless pickups.

Funny someone would say something like that, when most of what is loved and appreciated is emulated over from the original vintage era, and thrown back together...think of the terms: "Reissue" or "Vintage-correct", or "they don't make them like they used to". Up to and including the original 6 screw bridge, as opposed to the 2-point that lacks resonance, but "stays in tune better with whammy use".

[michaelprice83]

well, unfortunately, no real musicians there, just lil' ol' me. :puh

yes i think they'd stand a chance. the tone of a guitar is a combination of a ton of variables, most important being the player. i have never had a problem getting a nice, fat, round spanking tone out of the SCNs. maybe once i learn to play up to your standards, i'll start having problems. sheesh.

as to the original post, well you opened a can of worms, so the thread got highjacked. i don't know that i have a ton of advice to offer, i'm happy with the tone of mine. i use premium quality cables and keep the volume touched back ever so slightly. why not add an EQ or an aural exciter? you should be able to rent or borrow examples of these, and see if they help.

I do hope you know the "real musicians" was not in any way meant to imply that you aren't one yourself. I just wanted you to picture a room full of great Strat players in a room with hum canceling and hand wound singles going head to head. The SCN's are supposed to be way nicer than most noiseless pups from what I've heard.

[big mike]

EC hasn't had good tone since he picked up a Fender so what is all the hubub about?

Okay...now we going to be fighting.:crazyguy :rotflmao

['70 RS]

To steal a line from someone else:

"When you guys all figure out what's best let me know."

[Jack The Riffer]

To steal a line from someone else:

"When you guys all figure out what's best let me know."

:rotflmao


I feel sad for all those guitar players out there who THINK they are happy with thier gear and don't realize it may not be approved by the online experts.

['70 RS]

:rotflmao


I feel sad for all those guitar players out there who THINK they are happy with thier gear and don't realize it may not be approved by the online experts.

There are a lot of outdated designs out there.

[George Johnson]

It seems that the further I stray from those "outdated designs" (bridge, tuners, pickups, etc.) the less I like what I'm hearing.

Guess it's just what our ears have become accustomed to.

[Rob DiStefano]

The making of "good music" isn't really about the gear, it's about the music. Everything about gear and music is subjective to the senses of all beholders - no one's right, no one's wrong, it is what it is.

There is no such thing as a "bad toned guitar" or "bad toned pickups". The more folks talk about gear, the less likely I think they can actually make decent music. No one can see yer guitar, pups, fx and amps when they listen to yer CD. Most obsessions about "tone" and "sound" are really obsessions about gear. More than a few great players could whip anyone to guitar playing shame with a junker git. YMMV, but it really shouldn't.

[michaelprice83]

Its not necessarily about sounding better or worse, my point about the VN's was that they are not perfect 100% single coil sounding pickups, they do not capture ALL of the traits of great single coils. There is no better or worse. I just feel that when a product is OBVIOUSLY intended to simulate or replicate, it is then going to be judged on how close it comes to the test model rather than how it sounds on its own. Anyone who doesn't understand this concept is missing something.....

[michaelprice83]

The making of "good music" isn't really about the gear, it's about the music. Everything about gear and music is subjective to the senses of all beholders - no one's right, no one's wrong, it is what it is.

There is no such thing as a "bad toned guitar" or "bad toned pickups". The more folks talk about gear, the less likely I think they can actually make decent music. No one can see yer guitar, pups, fx and amps when they listen to yer CD. Most obsessions about "tone" and "sound" are really obsessions about gear. More than a few great players could whip anyone to guitar playing shame with a junker git. YMMV, but it really shouldn't.

Not quite, most obsessions about tone are actually about tone. There IS such a thing as a bad toned guitar and there are awful pickups (i have no clue how to wind a pickup so I'll make you one if you'd like). Can you prove a guitar or pickup sounds bad? No. Can you prove a singer has a bad voice? No. Lets say my favorite singer is William Hung (from American Idol). Would you not all question my sanity and/or hearing abilities? Who decides where we draw the line between subjective differences and facts?

[Jack The Riffer]

Its not necessarily about sounding better or worse, my point about the VN's was that they are not perfect 100% single coil sounding pickups, they do not capture ALL of the traits of great single coils. There is no better or worse. I just feel that when a product is OBVIOUSLY intended to simulate or replicate, it is then going to be judged on how close it comes to the test model rather than how it sounds on its own. Anyone who doesn't understand this concept is missing something.....

That's not what you've been preaching:

Originally Posted by michaelprice83
Does Eric actually play those pickups? That's too bad. There are certainly better humbucking single coils out there if that's what he insists on using. Maybe there's something in his endorsement deal. Just a thought.....

Originally Posted by michaelprice83
yeah. i guess every pickup has its own sound and maybe, just maybe, every pickup out there is worthy of its place in someone's guitar. its just hard to believe that if EC tested the best pickups out there today and walk away with some cheaply made mass produced pickup. I mean, the guy is fairly fanatical about his amps and speakers. ah well, my $0.02 is spent, i'm out.

[Jack The Riffer]

Not quite, most obsessions about tone are actually about tone. There IS such a thing as a bad toned guitar and there are awful pickups (i have no clue how to wind a pickup so I'll make you one if you'd like). Can you prove a guitar or pickup sounds bad? No. Can you prove a singer has a bad voice? No. Lets say my favorite singer is William Hung (from American Idol). Would you not all question my sanity and/or hearing abilities? Who decides where we draw the line between subjective differences and facts?

You have been deciding this.

['70 RS]

Its not necessarily about sounding better or worse, my point about the VN's was that they are not perfect 100% single coil sounding pickups, they do not capture ALL of the traits of great single coils. There is no better or worse. I just feel that when a product is OBVIOUSLY intended to simulate or replicate, it is then going to be judged on how close it comes to the test model rather than how it sounds on its own. Anyone who doesn't understand this concept is missing something.....

That may all be true.

However, the original question was asking for ideas on adjusting the stock pups in the guitar. Some good first steps were offered.

If the original question was "Hey, I've got VN's in my Strat, they don't seem to capture the classic 50's Strat tone. Any ideas?" then sure, jump on in with different pup ideas. With all the options out there everyone wants to immediately say "Dump those and drop a set of Brand X Flavor Of The Month Specials in there."

I think asking more questions and not assuming the first answer is "Pull them out, they suck." would help a lot of members here.

[michaelprice83]

I said there are certainly better humcanceling pickups out there as in more authentic vintage tone. Jack, I'm sorry but you aren't making any valid points here. You're only paraphrasing and acting like a bad lawyer.

[Jack The Riffer]

That may all be true.

However, the original question was asking for ideas on adjusting the stock pups in the guitar. Some good first steps were offered.

If the original question was "Hey, I've got VN's in my Strat, they don't seem to capture the classic 50's Strat tone. Any ideas?" then sure, jump on in with different pup ideas. With all the options out there everyone wants to immediately say "Dump those and drop a set of Brand X Flavor Of The Month Specials in there."

I think asking more questions and not assuming the first answer is "Pull them out, they suck." would help a lot of members here.


Exactly.

[Jack The Riffer]

I said there are certainly better humcanceling pickups out there as in more authentic vintage tone. Jack, I'm sorry but you aren't making any valid points here. You're only paraphrasing and acting like a bad lawyer.

You started out bashing a particular p/u, matter of factly stated there are better then proclaimed it's not about being better???

Hmm, who's the one not making any valid points.

['70 RS]

Okay, we're on page 4 now. Other than the VN's being too bassy and the Lace Sensors being too glassy and sterile can anyone tell me what ntannarong is looking for? What amp is being used? What effects if any? Anything?

So let's start with some basics.
Hey ntannarong, how's it going? What type of tone are you looking for? What else are you using with your Strat? I'm sure you'll get a lot of usefull advice here to answer the specific question you are asking.
:AOK



That should help.

[Jack The Riffer]

Okay, we're on page 4 now. Other than the VN's being too bassy and the Lace Sensors being too glassy and sterile can anyone tell me what ntannarong is looking for? What amp is being used? What effects if any? Anything?

So let's start with some basics.
Hey ntannarong, how's it going? What type of tone are you looking for? What else are you using with your Strat? I'm sure you'll get a lot of usefull advice here to answer the specific question you are asking.
:AOK



That should help.

You ain't gonna get invited to the TGP bbq by asking helpful stuff like that so best you knock that shit off pronto.

[michaelprice83]

he's looking for good vintage sounding pickups, and he's S.O.L. IMO with what's in there now. go ahead and recommend some crazy scheme of electronics to brighten up this and boost that and send him off chasing his tail.

['70 RS]

You ain't gonna get invited to the TGP bbq by asking helpful stuff like that so best you knock that shit off pronto.


sorry.





LOLLARS!!!!!!!

['70 RS]

he's looking for good vintage sounding pickups


To nail that Blackmore/SRV/EC/Robert Cray/Jeff Beck/Gilmour/Hendrix/Dick Dale tone thru his Mesa Triple Rectifier no doubt.

Thanks. That helps.

[Jack The Riffer]

he's looking for good vintage sounding pickups, and he's S.O.L. IMO with what's in there now. go ahead and recommend some crazy scheme of electronics to brighten up this and boost that and send him off chasing his tail.

Wrong again :rotflmao

Damn dude, did you even read his responses?


I don't mean to be rude, but I really didn't ask for opinions on which pickups are better than which or who makes the best Strat pickups. The Vintage Noiseless pups are good for me WHEN I am able to set them up properly. I know this because I have played other Clapton Strats with the same pickups and was pretty impressed.

I started this thread because I needed advice on a certain product. I'm not in the market shopping for other pickups or else I would've stated that and asked for recommendations. Sorry. Now if I could please get some real help.
http://www.thegearpage.net/board/images/buttons/quote.gif (http://www.thegearpage.net/board/newreply.php?do=newreply&p=1553852)

[michaelprice83]

polish away

['70 RS]

"I'd like to buy a car."

"Get a Ferrari."

"But I live in the mountains."

"Ferrari's love winding roads."

"I have four kids."

"They will each love sitting in the passenger seat for those special rides with you."

"I handle the morning car pool."

"Ferraris are pretty."

"The roads aren't paved."

"Ferraris are the BEST CAR EVER!!!"

"But...."

"I TOLD YOU, GET A FERRARI!!!!!"

[michaelprice83]

if you like the VN's when they are set up properly then that's all gravy, i hope you do get the help you need. i hijacked this thread and took it in a different direction but only after several helpful suggestion were already made. if you like the sound of the VN's of course you shouldn't replace them. i never meant to imply that you should swap pups if you know you can get a good sound out of them from past experiences.

[ntannarong]

Thanks for everyone's attempt to help. The tone I'm looking for is a glassy tone similar to the Lace Sensors. I know the Vintage Noiseless pups aren't Lace Sensors, but they can be set to sound similar. To me, the VN have much more life than the LS so that's why I've been on this quest to find the right tone.

I'm playing the Clapton Strat (obviously) through a Fender Blues Junior with slight overdrive. When I play clean, it is lacking that sparkle a bit. I play straight into the amp with no effects.

I've read elsewhere that with these VN pups, one needs to be more patient dialing them in, so that's what I'm trying to do. I'm trying new settings all the time to see where it takes me.

One issue that I'm still running into is that whenever I roll down the guitar's volume, the highs are lost. I've heard changing the capacitor cap from the stock .22 to .01 would help. Is this true?

[Jack The Riffer]

Thanks for everyone's attempt to help. The tone I'm looking for is a glassy tone similar to the Lace Sensors. I know the Vintage Noiseless pups aren't Lace Sensors, but they can be set to sound similar. To me, the VN have much more life than the LS so that's why I've been on this quest to find the right tone.

I'm playing the Clapton Strat (obviously) through a Fender Blues Junior with slight overdrive. When I play clean, it is lacking that sparkle a bit. I play straight into the amp with no effects.

I've read elsewhere that with these VN pups, one needs to be more patient dialing them in, so that's what I'm trying to do. I'm trying new settings all the time to see where it takes me.

One issue that I'm still running into is that whenever I roll down the guitar's volume, the highs are lost. I've heard changing the capacitor cap from the stock .22 to .01 would help. Is this true?

Changing the cap value will alter the tone you get only when you are rolling back the tone knob, it will have zero effect regarding rolling back on the volume.

The Blues Jr. stock, *in my experience* isn't the cleanest of cleans so I'm thinking maybe that's where you are running into the lack of sparkle? (just a thought)

[big mike]

you don't change out the capacitor, you put one in a different part of the circuit. Put a .01 across lugs one and two of the volume pot. Commonly refered to as the 'treble bleed' (which makes no sense, it retains the treble) this will help you when dialing back.

If you like lace sensors, but want more vintage/glassy tone, try the lace Holy Grail set. Very nice. But I'd futz with the pup height, amp settings, and the treble bleed cap first.

Good luck sir!

[Rob DiStefano]

Not quite, most obsessions about tone are actually about tone.

The question isn't about "tone" or a gear obsession therein, it's about those OCD folks that continually ride on a Don Quixote quest for "the tone". Most pro players can easily work with the tone they've got at hand, and a good portion of that sound comes from their brain and fingers, and not from some boutique pickup, custom guitar, magical mojo fx, hand-built-by-god amp, etc.

There IS such a thing as a bad toned guitar and there are awful pickups (i have no clue how to wind a pickup so I'll make you one if you'd like).

I think yer wrong. IMO it's all about individual tastes - what's wrong for you can be oh-so-right for me, and vice-versa.

Can you prove a guitar or pickup sounds bad? No. Can you prove a singer has a bad voice? No. Lets say my favorite singer is William Hung (from American Idol). Would you not all question my sanity and/or hearing abilities? Who decides where we draw the line between subjective differences and facts?

Yer confusing the issue - there are no final "facts" about subjectivity - it is what it is, subjective stuff that we can all have personal opinons about. Period.

You haven't shown me anything more than "to each their own" - just as I've already stated.


....

[mybusinessmy]

The making of "good music" isn't really about the gear, it's about the music. Everything about gear and music is subjective to the senses of all beholders - no one's right, no one's wrong, it is what it is.

There is no such thing as a "bad toned guitar" or "bad toned pickups". The more folks talk about gear, the less likely I think they can actually make decent music. No one can see yer guitar, pups, fx and amps when they listen to yer CD. Most obsessions about "tone" and "sound" are really obsessions about gear. More than a few great players could whip anyone to guitar playing shame with a junker git. YMMV, but it really shouldn't.

K-with your theory, a plywood guitar such as a Fender Squire strat doesn't fall under that category. If you cannot hear the difference...then that is just you, but not fact, just like what is good to one person, isn't good to another. I think everyone can agree that Plywood does not equate to tone, period.

You also just used the term junker git, but if there isn't a such thing as a bad toned guitar, why did you use that term? :crazyguy

['70 RS]

K-with your theory, a plywood guitar such as a Fender Squire strat doesn't fall under that category. If you cannot hear the difference...then that is just you, but not fact, just like what is good to one person, isn't good to another. I think everyone can agree that Plywood does not equate to tone, period.

You also just used the term junker git, but if there isn't a such thing as a bad toned guitar, why did you use that term? :crazyguy


:jo :jo :jo
Here we go again. Fret Tech NEVER said you can't tell the difference between a plywood guitar and an R9 w/WCRs (or fill in you're favorite guitar/pup here). Of course you can tell the difference. His point was good vs. bad. And guess what? I can think of plenty of cases where a plywood guitar with 'bad' pups would be much more appropriate than a high priced boutique pc. of gear. It's all about flavors my friend.

[Rob DiStefano]

Pretty much what '70 RS just posted.

Plenty of early bluezmen made GREAT music that's chock fulla AMAZING tone using what most of us today would call cheap/crap/junker guitars. Good music is always in the ears of the beholder.

[mybusinessmy]

:jo :jo :jo
Here we go again. Fret Tech NEVER said you can't tell the difference between a plywood guitar and an R9 w/WCRs (or fill in you're favorite guitar/pup here). Of course you can tell the difference. His point was good vs. bad. And guess what? I can think of plenty of cases where a plywood guitar with 'bad' pups would be much more appropriate than a high priced boutique pc. of gear. It's all about flavors my friend.

No, he said that there is no such thing as a bad toned guitar. I never said anything about "differences" between guitars. My quote says, that "I think everyone can agree that plywood guitars don't equate to tone, period."

[Rob DiStefano]

Guyz, this topic is loaded with subjectivity and no one is right or wrong. Give it up and let's get back to makin' music. I'm outta here ...

['70 RS]

No, he said that there is no such thing as a bad toned guitar. I never said anything about "differences" between guitars. My quote says, that "I think everyone can agree that plywood guitars don't equate to tone, period."

You're selectively quoting yourself:
"If you cannot hear the difference...then that is just you"

And, I can promise you that NOT everyone will agree about plywood guitars. I'm sure David Lindley and Ry Cooder might have some thoughts to the contrary.

[mybusinessmy]

You're selectively quoting yourself:
"If you cannot hear the difference...then that is just you"

And, I can promise you that NOT everyone will agree about plywood guitars. I'm sure David Lindley and Ry Cooder might have some thoughts to the contrary.



FINE...I retract my previous statement. If a wet fart sounds pleasing to their or your ears, so let it be...'nough said.

Tell David Lindley and Ry Cooder-to switch John Suhr, James Tyler, Melancon and Anderson off of the usual wood selections, move to (pressed) plywood and see how many guitars they sell. I have been to the Anderson production suite, and he does not offer Plywood.

Your argument proves that you obviously don't really know anything about wood tone, and are more interested in packing a meaningless statement, for the sake of "subjectivity".

['70 RS]

You should buy a Ferrari.

[AaeCee]

Curious...how many of you who claim to wholly dislike the VNs have really spent much time (like measured in weeks, not minutes) playing a Clapton Strat, boost and all, with them? And note that the newer Claptons have the slightly different 'hot' VNs. I've owned one for 2 years now, and have dialed in what I and everyone who's heard it thinks is a great, thick, and stratty tone. And you know what? It's way fatter than a real vintage toned strat, but not as...well... 'vintagey'. It's not designed to be. I have another strat for that. That's why Fender builds other strats of that ilk. This is supposed to sound how it sounds. Like a strat, but a different strat. A boosted, thicker, quiet strat. Does that really well. Drives my amps like no other strat. No one wants to make it what it's not, and there are some great suggestions here to help draw a bit more of certain characteristics out of it. That IS what the poster wanted. He also wanted this strat, not a more traditional vintage type strat. AC

[Jack The Riffer]

Curious...how many of you who claim to wholly dislike the VNs have really spent much time (like measured in weeks, not minutes) playing a Clapton Strat, boost and all, with them? And note that the newer Claptons have the slightly different 'hot' VNs. I've owned one for 2 years now, and have dialed in what I and everyone who's heard it thinks is a great, thick, and stratty tone. And you know what? It's way fatter than a real vintage toned strat, but not as...well... 'vintagey'. It's not designed to be. I have another strat for that. That's why Fender builds other strats of that ilk. This is supposed to sound how it sounds. Like a strat, but a different strat. A boosted, thicker, quiet strat. Does that really well. Drives my amps like no other strat. No one wants to make it what it's not, and there are some great suggestions here to help draw a bit more of certain characteristics out of it. That IS what the poster wanted. He also wanted this strat, not a more traditional vintage type strat. AC

Bravo :BEER

Too many pieces of gear get slagged imho by heresay or quick demo's in a noisey Guitar Center.

['70 RS]

FINE...I retract my previous statement. If a wet fart sounds pleasing to their or your ears, so let it be...'nough said.

Tell David Lindley and Ry Cooder-to switch John Suhr, James Tyler, Melancon and Anderson off of the usual wood selections, move to (pressed) plywood and see how many guitars they sell. I have been to the Anderson production suite, and he does not offer Plywood.

Your argument proves that you obviously don't really know anything about wood tone, and are more interested in packing a meaningless statement, for the sake of "subjectivity".

You know, I was going to let this go with my last little flip comment but the more I think about this post there are a few things that I would like to address.

1) Let's just start with the fact that you have no idea what guitars I have owned, do own, and will own in the future. Nor do you have any grasp on my knowledge of tone.

2) How wonderfull for you that you went to the Anderson production suite. If it made you feel special then I guess it was worth it.

3) No where in any of my posts did I say that I preferred the sound of a plywood guitar or that anyone should offer such an instrument or that it would cut into the sales of high end gear. What I said was every guitar offers a flavor that may fit a particular style of part for a song. In the scheme of things old Danos are pieces of crap...but guess what? They serve a purpose.

4) It really is a shame that so many internet Ninjas are blinded by the 'biggest and best new and improved' that not only do they close their eyes to so many interesting products out there, but they can't even believe that someone might suggest giving 'lesser' gear a chance.

5) Before offering advice, stop and read the question being asked. You can learn a lot more by listening than you can by talking.

[Jack The Riffer]

You know, I was going to let this go with my last little flip comment but the more I think about this post there are a few things that I would like to address.

1) Let's just start with the fact that you have no idea what guitars I have owned, do own, and will own in the future. Nor do you have any grasp on my knowledge of tone.

2) How wonderfull for you that you went to the Anderson production suite. If it made you feel special then I guess it was worth it.

3) No where in any of my posts did I say that I preferred the sound of a plywood guitar or that anyone should offer such an instrument or that it would cut into the sales of high end gear. What I said was every guitar offers a flavor that may fit a particular style of part for a song. In the scheme of things old Danos are pieces of crap...but guess what? They serve a purpose.

4) It really is a shame that so many internet Ninjas are blinded by the 'biggest and best new and improved' that not only do they close their eyes to so many interesting products out there, but they can't even believe that someone might suggest giving 'lesser' gear a chance.

5) Before offering advice, stop and read the question being asked. You can learn a lot more by listening than you can by talking.

"internet Ninjas"

Excellent phrase:dude

[mybusinessmy]

You know, I was going to let this go with my last little flip comment but the more I think about this post there are a few things that I would like to address.

1) Let's just start with the fact that you have no idea what guitars I have owned, do own, and will own in the future. Nor do you have any grasp on my knowledge of tone.

2) How wonderfull for you that you went to the Anderson production suite. If it made you feel special then I guess it was worth it.

3) No where in any of my posts did I say that I preferred the sound of a plywood guitar or that anyone should offer such an instrument or that it would cut into the sales of high end gear. What I said was every guitar offers a flavor that may fit a particular style of part for a song. In the scheme of things old Danos are pieces of crap...but guess what? They serve a purpose.

4) It really is a shame that so many internet Ninjas are blinded by the 'biggest and best new and improved' that not only do they close their eyes to so many interesting products out there, but they can't even believe that someone might suggest giving 'lesser' gear a chance.

5) Before offering advice, stop and read the question being asked. You can learn a lot more by listening than you can by talking.

ROFLMAO... you took every single thing I posted completely out of context. If you LISTENED to half the posts that I had on here, I stated that vintage is better than newer and bigger, IMO, hence who stated outdated Fender Strat designs. Noiseless pups are a technology in themselves, and they improve over time, though.

You stated that I have no idea or grasp of your knowledge of tone, but you quote guys that state they like Plywood guitars...so you are defending their argument. Other than that, yeah, I have no idea, nor did I try to.

As for the orignal post, I tried answering that question in page 3. I think I stopped and read the question asked, but a Ferrari has everything to do w/this thread...

['70 RS]

Right.
Good luck with that.

[mybusinessmy]

Let's agree to disagree... :BEER

['70 RS]

"internet Ninjas"

Excellent phrase:dude

In all fairness I think Seavall dropped that one when he was visiting.
It is good.
:AOK

[HEY!YOU!]

I think he SHOULD buy a ferrari.......ninjas like fast.

[TopJimmy5150]

I have them in my MIJ Squier Strat and they're great. I get nothing but compliments. They chime, sparkle, quack, just like regular single coils. I do notice they sound more compressed than single coils. I think they work well with this particular strat.

I have US made strat and if I decide to keep it it's going to have some CUstom SHop '69 pickups soon.

[AaeCee]

ME! I spent years with the stuff and my Friend Bill Turner developed the pickups. I was also involved in much of the R&D of many of the pickups. I designed and built the noiseless pickups Beck used for years after he removed the Lace pickups. Turner did a great job considering what he had to work with and the patent restrictions however....
Sorry but there is no way to make a noiseless pickup really sound like a true single coil. Most the inventors will admit this if pressed. It is just the law of physics. The question is, does it work for you? If so Bitchin, it is an easy solution. Never worked for me though, the is a 3D breath a real good single coil has that no self contained in the pickup noiseless solution has. You might not notice until you have a good way to A/B, then you will see.Ouch! Dissed by a well respected luthier...to make matters worse, one whom I personally think is among the finest! But John, can't you agree that the Clapton strat, for example, is what it is and can sound damn good? If you want true vintage strat sounds, you get another Fender, or better yet, a Suhr strat of that design. But not comparing the Clapton to the others, it can still generate some beautiful sounds of its own, albeit different, and I love that boost function! AC

[Jack The Riffer]

I have them in my MIJ Squier Strat and they're great. I get nothing but compliments. They chime, sparkle, quack, just like regular single coils. I do notice they sound more compressed than single coils. I think they work well with this particular strat.

I have US made strat and if I decide to keep it it's going to have some CUstom SHop '69 pickups soon.

Big thumbs up for the 69's, if you like chime & sparkle you're gonna sport wood over them. Shop around too, you should be able to score a new set for well under $150.

[Jack The Riffer]

ME! I spent years with the stuff and my Friend Bill Turner developed the pickups. I was also involved in much of the R&D of many of the pickups. I designed and built the noiseless pickups Beck used for years after he removed the Lace pickups. Turner did a great job considering what he had to work with and the patent restrictions however....
Sorry but there is no way to make a noiseless pickup really sound like a true single coil. Most the inventors will admit this if pressed. It is just the law of physics. The question is, does it work for you? If so Bitchin, it is an easy solution. Never worked for me though, the is a 3D breath a real good single coil has that no self contained in the pickup noiseless solution has. You might not notice until you have a good way to A/B, then you will see.

While reading your response it struck me that if you were knighted you'd be Sir Suhr.

:)




(I'm easily amused):NUTS

[JimmyD]

Two more ideas and a shameless plug, I have a set of Lace Holy Grails that you could try for $90. And have a complete set of Bill Lawrence strat pups for $60.

Good luck in your tone search.

Jim

[ntannarong]

JimmyD,

I think I'll pass. Thanks though.

[suttree]

ntannarong. it occurs that no-one's yet asked when you last had your guitar intonated? that will bring out a lot of the high frequencies. if your frets aren't well dressed, that will also throw out your intonation. it's a shot in the dark, but it might be part of the difference between your guitar and the others you've played. no guitar will sound it's best until it has been properly set up.

i mentioned high quality cables before, too. they really do have a pretty big impact on high freq's (higher end than planet waves... for great tone on a budget george l's kick).

also the blues junior doesn't have a ton of headroom, as someone else mentioned. you might try different preamp tubes (there's a new GT mullard re-issue i'm liking in my ac-30), or you might consider a new speaker, say a weber or something like it?

sir suhr (i, too am easily amused), goes to the real heart of the matter in re: the impassioned banter on this thread (ninja death war).. the SCN's don't sound "just like an old single coil", of course. but they don't sound bad, either. the tone works for me, and it makes me happy with my tele. i'll take that guitar to my deathbed.

[Lucidology]

I had a conversation with my friend and noted pickup maker Bill Lawrence (www.billlawrence.com (http://www.billlawrence.com) designer of Fender SCN's) about pickup height and tone. He told me to use a starting point and fine tune from there. He recommended using two nickels stacked on top of the bass side pole piece, depress the low E at the last fret and adjust so the string touches the nickels. On the treble side use only one nickle on top of the pole piece and depress the high e at the last fret. Adjust to taste from there.
The farther away the pickup is from the string the less output you will have but you'll also have more sustain. The closer the pickup to the string the more output but less sustain.

good info indeed ...

[HarryJ]

Thought some of you may be interested in yet another Area model to be released 01/08

Copied from another post: http://www.thegearpage.net/board/showthread.php?t=259433

Hey guys,
So... I had suggested to Steve Blucher to design a neck / middle pickup that had a higher peak and a bit more of a glassy sound than the Area '58, and '61 (which are both low peak designs somewhat like Suhr's V60 LP)
The idea was to be a tad more articulate in the neck position of a slightly darker strat when using overdrive. Much in the way a slightly underwound pickup would do, or as I understand, some of the later 60's Strats did as well.

I'm diggin' this puppy albeit, I need to try it with a few more amps, and perhaps recording techniques.

This was my Lacewood strat with the new pickups in the neck and middle and the hellacious Heavy Blues 2 in the bridge into my modded Bassman with London Power, power scaling set to about 10:00 (must be 15-20 watts?)

http://www.harryj.net/lacewood_small.jpg http://www.harryj.net/bassman2_small.jpg

http://harryj.net/Lenny.mp3

Harry Jacobson
www.harryj.net (http://www.harryj.net/)