View Full Version : G.A.S. Refinery...Or: I don't need no Doctor...(Collings Electric)
HeyMrTeleMan
10-03-2006, 03:39 PM
So, I go back to Maple St. Guitars to pick up a couple of things, and the owner breaks out, just for me, his NAMM show Collings solid body Model 290 with the Lollar P-90's. They are using Tone Prosgb hardware, with really cool open back tuners (not Waverly) but Sperzel vintage style, maybe. Don't quote me on that;^)
It has an orange-ish/honey color and is impeccable in every appointment and detail. I'm mighty impressed with this guitar. Even though we didn't plug it in, it really projected great tone with exceptional clarity. I can imagine what the Lollars sound like! Man, I like that guitar and that "City Limits" which I described in an earlier post.
You can see these two guitars at:
http://maplestreetguitars.com/show_item.php?dep=05&cat=130&sku=26554647290
and:
http://maplestreetguitars.com/show_item.php?dep=05&cat=130&sku=26554253587
This precipitated a very serious GAS attack, I almost went into convulsions and seizures, every bone in my body started to shake, and now I may have to do some very serious refining of my collection. Or see a doctor. Too bad I don't have Lowell to get my prescription filled...
If this is what Collings thinks is good for their first ride out on the electric guitar highway, I have great hope for Guitar-kind;^)
BLP
(and once again, No, I have no affiliation with...blah blah blah...-should put that in my sig line;^)
DualRectifier
10-03-2006, 03:54 PM
Dang I didn't know Maple St had any of those...I've been afraid to stop by lately for fear of finding a reason to trade up my 514CE. Blues Jam is tonight, but I definitely need to stop by there soon...
I know $4,800 is not much for an acoustic, but that's an awful lot for a freshman effort at an electric. I really gotta see this thing in person.
HeyMrTeleMan
10-03-2006, 04:23 PM
...I know $4,800 is not much for an acoustic, but that's an awful lot for a freshman effort at an electric. I really gotta see this thing in person.
The pictures show the guitar as much darker than it really is. It's one of the finest burst finishes I've ever seen. Note the bound headstock. It all just oozes good taste. And even though it's a freshman effort, they did with senior style.
The 290 is more in my league than the other, more expensive ones. Even $2500 is a stretch! Too bad I can't afford my own good taste (hey, wait a minute-that's someones' sig line here...Sorry!)
BLP
AJ Love
10-03-2006, 04:32 PM
$4800 out the door? Whoa
matte
10-03-2006, 05:11 PM
bill couldn't have possibly bit mike's lj any harder.
http://maplestreetguitars.com/img/items/26554253587-7.jpg
http://stevensguitars.com/gallery/gallery-lj/images/lj-green-back.jpg
trisonic
10-03-2006, 05:31 PM
Wow!
Best, Pete.
57special
12-21-2006, 09:55 AM
bill couldn't have possibly bit mike's lj any harder.
http://maplestreetguitars.com/img/items/26554253587-7.jpg
http://stevensguitars.com/gallery/gallery-lj/images/lj-green-back.jpg
Hmmmmm. She's So Fine/My Sweet Lord?
homebrewer99
12-21-2006, 10:12 AM
Those Collings look great! I would love to try one out sometime.
However, Matte and 57special have hit the nail on the head...Somebody should alert Mr. Stevens if he doesnt know about this already. Perhaps legal action should be taken, or even better an amicable solution (licensing designs etc) could be found. Either way, it sure looks like the LJ design as ripped off.
Hope this doesnt start a flame war.
-homebrewer
mrfjones
12-21-2006, 10:21 AM
i found two things i really disliked about both of those guitars but they are both cosmetic things. I haven't gotten to play one yet, though I am sure they are wonderful instruments. I really would have liked a black guard on the 290 and those cream knobs om the city limits.
Dave Orban
12-21-2006, 10:26 AM
Dang I didn't know Maple St had any of those...I've been afraid to stop by lately for fear of finding a reason to trade up my 514CE. Blues Jam is tonight, but I definitely need to stop by there soon...
I know $4,800 is not much for an acoustic, but that's an awful lot for a freshman effort at an electric. I really gotta see this thing in person.I doubt that Collings' "Freshman Effort" will disappoint.
Hell, Gibson's been doing electrics forever, and they still "get 'em right" only a part of the time... ;)
Dave Orban
12-21-2006, 10:31 AM
Those Collings look great! I would love to try one out sometime.
However, Matte and 57special have hit the nail on the head...Somebody should alert Mr. Stevens if he doesnt know about this already. Perhaps legal action should be taken, or even better an amicable solution (licensing designs etc) could be found. Either way, it sure looks like the LJ design as ripped off.
Hope this doesnt start a flame war.
-homebrewerThat's bullshit.
NONE of this stuff is new, and it's been done repeatedly by luthiers all over the world, for years and years.
You want a "new" design...? Go buy a Klein. Most everything else is fairly derivitave, basic embellishments of designs that have been around for 50+ years.
kingsleyd
12-21-2006, 10:43 AM
Mr. Stevens if he doesnt know about this already. Perhaps legal action should be taken, or even better an amicable solution (licensing designs etc) could be found.
Mr. Stevens is well aware of the Collings electrics. Neither of your well-meaning suggestions is likely to happen -- ever inquire as to the cost of this type of legal action? And as for an amicable solution, we're talking about two Texans here, bucko! (who have known each other for long enough to have, er, rather definite opinions about each other)
As to who ripped off whom, I'm with Dave O: it's hard to justify throwing stones when the whole concept is borrowed so clearly from designs originally brought to market by Gibson.
homebrewer99
12-21-2006, 10:52 AM
Mr Orban-
I agree that many concepts incorporated into guitar designs have been around for a while, but I feel this is different. True, the LJ design is a singlecut that borrows design cues from the Gibson Les Paul, but isnt a clone. If people get in trouble for triangular headstocks with a ball on the end (fender strat), then this shouldnt fly either. Im not saying its right, im saying thats how things currently work.
It seems as though Collings directly lifted dimensions, angles, and cuts off of the LJ design. Assuming that Stevens has the rights to the LJ design, he has the right to raise hell. If the big boys (fender, gibson) can cause trouble with rights to old designs, im sure Stevens can with a relatively new design. Ultimately its up to him and Collings, not us.
On the other hand, Collings is producing a product that will appeal to lovers of the Stevens design that is also cheaper and more readily available. I will definitely check out a Collings and/or a Stevens whenever I get the chance.
sorry for the derail. if others wish to discuss this further, a new thread would probably be a good idea.
-homebrewer
Mrgearguy
12-21-2006, 11:09 AM
I'm with Dave on this one. It's one thing to rip off a headstock verbatim, and quite another to bevel the edge of an existing 50 year old design.
It's quite hypocritical to be compalining about such minor stuff when half of the "luthier" small builders that are discussed here are merely making replicas (albeit high-quality versions) of Fender designs.
Tyler, Anderson Melancon, GVCG, Suhr and two dozen other builders make guitars that will go snugly into the same form-fit cases and have interchangable hardware... don't make me laugh with this talk about furniture bevels on Les Paul copies.
Bill Collings has made a career of borrowing classic designs and improving upon the subtle aspects of construction, just like the aforementioned guys.
homebrewer99
12-21-2006, 11:50 AM
Tyler, Anderson Melancon, GVCG, Suhr and two dozen other builders make guitars that will go snugly into the same form-fit cases and have interchangable hardware... don't make me laugh with this talk about furniture bevels on Les Paul copies.
Bill Collings has made a career of borrowing classic designs and improving upon the subtle aspects of construction, just like the aforementioned guys.
All excellent points. Though I suspect the LJ wont fit in a Les Paul case. Maybe in a Collings case :rolleyes: ? Anyway, as long as Mr Stevens is aware he can make his own decisions.
Bill Collings is definitely interested in making quality guitars, and for that reason I am still interested in his product. I gas for one with P90s.
-homebrewer
JoeinLA
12-21-2006, 12:03 PM
I'll throw in my $0.01 here.
Personally, I think the angles/cuts on the back of the Collings are so similar to the Stevens that it appears, to me at least, to be a direct copy. That bugs me because those are "design" elements that are, in many ways, similar to a headstock or other mark that doesn't exist for any reason other than to show who made the guitar. There are "generic" ways to do a tummy cut, and the collings sure doesn't look "generic" to me - it looks like the Stevens design. Now, who designed what first is a different story, but it sure does look like Collings and Stevens are using the same type of "design" (as opposed to function) for the tummy cut.
I think it sucks if Stevens spent time and effort trying to come up with a cool/unique design and Collings just said, "hey, that looks cool. I'm gonna do it too".
DualRectifier
12-21-2006, 01:31 PM
Well I had a chance to check this thing out at Gruhn in Nashville a couple weeks ago.
It is an awesome guitar, and quite impressive for an acoustic guitar maker, but it is overpriced.
Good wood, good hardware, nice finish, and custom Lollars still doesn't get you to $4,650. The name has zero heritage in the electric guitar business, and as pointed out here, is a completely derivative design, covering no new sonic or aesthetic territory.
I've played better. Better real Les Pauls, even. If you are going to clone a design, rather than come up with your own, you should do at least one thing better than the design you are copying.
57special
12-21-2006, 01:33 PM
I'll throw in my $0.01 here.
Personally, I think the angles/cuts on the back of the Collings are so similar to the Stevens that it appears, to me at least, to be a direct copy. That bugs me because those are "design" elements that are, in many ways, similar to a headstock or other mark that doesn't exist for any reason other than to show who made the guitar. There are "generic" ways to do a tummy cut, and the collings sure doesn't look "generic" to me - it looks like the Stevens design. Now, who designed what first is a different story, but it sure does look like Collings and Stevens are using the same type of "design" (as opposed to function) for the tummy cut.
I think it sucks if Stevens spent time and effort trying to come up with a cool/unique design and Collings just said, "hey, that looks cool. I'm gonna do it too".
I agree with what you say, but would add, that i wonder if Collings might've done it unintentionally... in other words, he saw the design, noted it, then a couple of years later decided to use it, forgetting it's source. It puts him in an unsavoury light, IMO , being known as someone who filch's current (not 'classic") designs, and not in keeping with the style of company that he runs, which is upmarket and pretty classy.
Or perhaps he caught Stevens messing with his kid sister.
kingsleyd
12-21-2006, 01:37 PM
i wonder if Collings might've done it unintentionally... in other words, he saw the design, noted it, then a couple of years later decided to use it, forgetting it's source.
Unless BC has Alzheimers and the rest of us don't know it, there was no lack of intentionality or "forgetting its source" involved.
57special
12-21-2006, 01:43 PM
Unless BC has Alzheimers and the rest of us don't know it, there was no lack of intentionality or "forgetting its source" involved.
Kid sister then?
Dave Orban
12-21-2006, 01:45 PM
The belly cuts on the Fender Flame predate Stevens work by a decade or so...
My understanding was that Stevens worked in the Fender factory at that time.
So, did Stevens rip-off the intellectual property of Fender...?
Does Tony Bruno rip off Dumble and Komet when he does "his take" on them...
Guys, you're getting petty and ridiculous about this stuff.
kingsleyd
12-21-2006, 01:50 PM
Guys, you're getting petty and ridiculous about this stuff.
Hey, Dave, didja ever get my e-mail about the TV yellow 290? ;)
Dave Orban
12-21-2006, 01:52 PM
Hey, Dave, didja ever get my e-mail about the TV yellow 290? ;)
No, I can't say that I saw one come in...
kingsleyd
12-21-2006, 01:54 PM
No, I can't say that I saw one come in...
PM forthcoming
Karmateria
12-21-2006, 05:15 PM
This reminds me of a discussion like "who invented the blues, SRV or Robert Cray?"
I read this thread right after eyeballing THIS (http://www.thegearpage.net/board/showthread.php?t=197110) breaktrough design:
I have done some research and found out that both of these guitar makers use................
KNOBS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I believe both should immediately come up with some better type of design that in no way incorporates a switch, knobs or slider type of thingee to control volume... maybe something like the Korg Airsynth or whatever that thing is..where you hold your hand over the sensor and if you go closer, it gets louder, the further away it gets quieter.. of course only the first one to do this should be allowed to do it...
;)
rock
bford
Teleplayer
12-21-2006, 07:21 PM
Each time I see the back of the new Collings fiddles loaded with P90's I think STEVENS.
IMHO, I think Mr. Collings is doing some fantastic free marketing for Mr. Stevens.
Let's break out the micrometer!
Shades
12-21-2006, 07:44 PM
You want a "new" design...? Go buy a Klein. Most everything else is fairly derivitave, basic embellishments of designs that have been around for 50+ years. That's not totally out of the blue either. That said, IMO the Collings contains things that are a conscious lift of ideas from Stevens.
http://www.doremi.co.uk/breadwinner/bblack.jpg
http://www.kleinelectricguitars.com/Klein/bf-96-s.jpg
black mariah
12-21-2006, 07:45 PM
Jesus frickin' Jones, people... LAY OFF IT. You're bitching about people ripping of ripoffs of a ripoff. Never mind that it's Yet Another Les Paul Wannabe! He STOLE that cut from someone else! But somehow he didn't STEAL the design from Gibson.
GET OVER IT, OR GET CONSISTENT. Complain about EVERYTHING "stolen" or complain about none of it.
What am I doing? Asking for logic from people that would drop $4k on a Strat? Maybe I'm the one that's losing it...
matte
12-21-2006, 08:20 PM
What am I doing? Asking for logic from people that would drop $4k on a Strat? i've paid a lot more. if i want it, i'll find the money.
Dave Orban
12-21-2006, 09:14 PM
That's not totally out of the blue either. That said, IMO the Collings contains things that are a conscious lift of ideas from Stevens.
Well, I'm glad to know that some luthiers don't parrot the designs of others... ;)
".....don't need a weatherman
to know which way the wind blows",
cowboy.
nor do we need a flippin' micrometer.
dt / spltrcl
Great analogy....
Flip off...
wichita
12-21-2006, 09:36 PM
Gots to agree
Owned a Stevens, played the Collings,...scary good copy but not a Michael guitar...just a close fax
Way too close for my taste actually.
I hate it when folks copy things
Originally Posted by dwes http://www.thegearpage.net/board/images/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://www.thegearpage.net/board/showthread.php?p=1918373#post1918373)
Flip off...
again, thanks!
dt / spltrcl
Glad you enjoyed it. I'm not going to try getting in the last word since we both joined TGP and in Nov. 03 and you've out posted me just about 5000 times.
For everyone else, the micrometer comment was not meant to be sarcastic. Unless someone has held the guitars side-by-side and thoroughly examined the heel, Matt's pics only show similarities to me.
Good luck!
Gots to agree
Owned a Stevens, played the Collings,...scary good copy but not a Michael guitar...just a close fax
Way too close for my taste actually.
I hate it when folks copy things
...and there you have one man's first hand account. Thanks!!! (genuinely)
wichita
12-21-2006, 09:44 PM
Dont get me wrong, the Collings is a stellar guitar, but they did borrow quite a lot from Michael
TimBascom
12-21-2006, 10:22 PM
Simple question:
Where can I see and play a Stevens guitar?
matte
12-21-2006, 10:27 PM
Simple question:
Where can I see and play a Stevens guitar?pm me.
matte
12-21-2006, 10:32 PM
Originally Posted by dwes http://www.thegearpage.net/board/images/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://www.thegearpage.net/board/showthread.php?p=1918373#post1918373)
Flip off...
again, thanks!
dt / spltrcl
Glad you enjoyed it. I'm not going to try getting in the last word since we both joined TGP and in Nov. 03 and you've out posted me just about 5000 times.
it's not one's posting frequency, it what one is doing when one isn't posting.
Shades
12-22-2006, 01:09 AM
Well, I'm glad to know that some luthiers don't parrot the designs of others... ;) Yeah , but If i stood here and said "what are you talking about, there's no Tele in a t-bird or Hawk" I'd be laughed out of the place the same way others would if it was PRS/LP jr./Hamer , etc. or someone playing "Boogie Chillen" said "John Lee who?" Also notice what I didn't say in that post...just an observation the same way as the Klein to the breadwinner.
Likewise, philosophically speaking, if someone is doing a note for note cop of Jr Watson's twist on a Johnny Guitar Watson based thing, does that mean that they aren't copping Junior?
BettyFjord
12-22-2006, 04:47 AM
I know how much everyone loves an A/B test, so I thought I'd do up a visual one. I scoured the interweb and found two near-identical shots of the back of the two guitars in question. I then scaled and rotated them so they are identical sizes and orientation. Identifying marks (access panels, colour, etc) were then digitally removed.
All that's left is shape and form:
http://images.bettyfjord.com/Collings-Stevens.jpg
Given that the shape of one of the guitars is relatively distinctive, I cropped the image to the top half to make the point more clearly:
http://images.bettyfjord.com/Collings-Stevens-detail.jpg
Ideally, you would put aside what you know about the two guitars and just look at the shapes. Which is easier if you have a trace:
http://images.bettyfjord.com/Collings-Stevens-sketch.jpg
Apologies for the crudeness of the sketch; I'm trying to make a point, not draw a masterpiece.
My thoughts, having done this? The sketch shows clear differences between the designs. The neck treatment, placement of the cuts and overall shape are obviously dissimilar. However, when looking at the less-precise photographs, the differences are almost unnoticeable. They have the same, distinctive, style of neck, cut and shape. I'd wager, in fact, that if you compared two similarly coloured guitars (these were red and yellow and so shading becomes inverted) they'd be identical to a casual observer and confusing for the knowledgeable.
You can only be charitable and suppose that imitation is the sincerest form of flattery.
martie6621
12-22-2006, 05:34 AM
...to the conspircacy theorists out there -- Get over yourselves Guys. Stevens and Collings are Austin Buds. Mike was aware/consulted on the whole Collings electric initiative. No controversy.
..and they both look very nice...........!!!
I would probably buy either over a Les anyday....
rock
bford
Teleplayer
12-22-2006, 06:54 AM
...to the conspircacy theorists out there -- Get over yourselves Guys. Stevens and Collings are Austin Buds. Mike was aware/consulted on the whole Collings electric initiative. No controversy.
Do you know them both and know this to be fact? Not busting chops, just askin'.
Dan Gardner
12-22-2006, 08:19 AM
But could you mistake one for the other across a smokey bar room?:roll
matte
12-22-2006, 08:22 AM
Mike was aware/consulted on the whole Collings electric initiative.mike had nothing to do with consulting collings on the electrics. source? mike.
Mrgearguy
12-22-2006, 08:38 AM
I know how much everyone loves an A/B test, so I thought I'd do up a visual one.
All that's left is shape and form:
http://images.bettyfjord.com/Collings-Stevens.jpg
I'd love to see this comparison on:
Tyler
Suhr
Anderson
Fender
Grosh
AND:
Gibson (Jr./Special)
Hamer
Thorn
PRS Santana
Actually, I don't really want/care to see that after all...
Guitarzan
12-22-2006, 11:37 AM
Man those Stevens are killer! I've wanted to try one of the 335 style ones for years , they look amazing!
ultra
12-22-2006, 05:42 PM
...to the conspircacy theorists out there -- Get over yourselves Guys. Stevens and Collings are Austin Buds. Mike was aware/consulted on the whole Collings electric initiative. No controversy.
Really?
Not what Mike told me.
From whom do you get your info?
texasdave
12-22-2006, 11:07 PM
Not wanting to either hijack this thread or even bring it bubbling to the top for that matter, but as a PSA: I spoke with Emile of Emile's Fine Guitars in Austin and he has a couple of early Stevens LJs for sale... if you're interested, PM me and I'll send you his phone number... email may take him a little longer....
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