Who has played a real Trainwreck?

[BBQLS1]

Who has played a real Trainwreck? What did you think?

[procos]

Who has played a real Trainwreck? What did you think?

I have not played a real wreck but I played an Express clone and a Rocket clone. A local forum member has had both. I loved the Rocket clone and thought it sounded awesome. I however did not care for the Express much at all. The Rocket clone cleaned up better than just about any amp I have ever heard. The Express was way to out of control for my liking and loud as hell. I am not a fan of attenuators either.

Chuck

[matte]

owned 4. still have 1.

[spikeRI]

love to play one, hope I'm never in one......

[Dave Orban]

Ginger...! :dude :dude :dude

Great-sounding amp, REALLY touch-sensitive...!

[matte]

i think i've played 3 of matte's, to date;
for a few months, i had in my possession a
fender DR that was gutted & rebuilt by ken fischer, as well, during his TW heyday.
dt / spltrclthe blackbox.

[Caretaker]

I`ve played 2 or 3 and IMO, nothing special at all. Good amps but I don`t get it.

[michaelg]

I've played a liverpool and an express. both smoked.
MG

[wichita]

I have played several. Not my bag but very nice

[donbarzini]

It would be really interesting to get a real one next to a clone, then hear how close they sound. I have not heard a clip from a clone/replica that would make me ever want one.

[trisonic]

Yes, I played a Rocket that someone owned down in Greensboro and have heard several Expresses (at the last NYCTF I had a Dumble under one arm and a Trainwreck Express under the other both real).

I prefer the Rocket which to me had less gain but tone to the max - it just suited me mo' better.

I would never buy a 'wreck clone unless Ken was getting something from it, that's just me...

Best, Pete.

[57special]

I played a Rocket, a Liverpool, an Express, and a special one off with reverb and tremelo. It was Ken's own amp. I thought it sounded the best, though the Rocket (a real 54 ALDER strat) and the Express ( 58 burst) both sounded sublime with certain guitars. The Liverpool was great , too, but not as nuanced or chimey as the Rocket, and i don't need all that gain.
Ken offered me his own amp at a reasonable price (5G's), and i might've taken it....















but i woke up with my 2 year old screaming in my face.

[Tom Gross]

I've played three, several times, and dug them all.
Babji's Rocket is incredible.

I find the feel & responsiveness is very special.

[RichSZ]

It would be really interesting to get a real one next to a clone, then hear how close they sound. I have not heard a clip from a clone/replica that would make me ever want one.

That has been done with Francesca & a few clones. You guys will probably not like to hear this but the clones had the same "magic" or "mojo" or whatever it is you call it these days.

-Rich

[matte]

That has been done with Francesca & a few clones. You guys will probably not like to hear this but the clones had the same "magic" or "mojo" or whatever it is you call it these days.

-Richbased on which specific fixed qualities? every wreck i've played/owned has been different,even within the confines of a particular model, so codification/reductionism of wreck "magic" and or "mojo" is a fool's errand.

[Robal]

i think i've played 3 of matte's, to date;
for a few months, i had in my possession a
fender DR that was gutted & rebuilt by ken fischer, as well, during his TW heyday.
dt / spltrcl

Was that the amp that the infamous Kendrick Climax was supposed to be based on? A hot-rodded Deluxe Reverb that ran on EL34s.

[matte]

Was that the amp that the infamous Kendrick Climax was supposed to be based on? A hot-rodded Deluxe Reverb that ran on EL34s.or 6vs. that was the one.

[90wreck]

Me...90wreck.
Express. Sounds incredible.
I fire it up "Inhouse" only.
Too risky for a club date.
Have taken it for a few national gigs...Very few even know what it is but always commented on the tone.:messedup

[datguytim]

About 10 or so years ago I played an Express and a Liverpool in New York. Very cool amps - I really dug the Express. As for clones - don't believe the hype. The Kendrick Climax sounded NOTHING like the real 'Wrecks I remember. I wonder how many clone-sters have ever even heard a real 'wreck (in person - not crappy website clips).

[VaughnC]

Me...90wreck.
Express. Sounds incredible.
I fire it up "Inhouse" only.
Too risky for a club date. I never quite understood this type of statement. Yeah, it's an expensive amp....but if owned a Wreck, and it was my favorite amp, you can bet I'd be playin' it everywhere. You only live once....and life is too short for a "B rig" ;).

[petemin]

i owned the first trem-rocket ken made. i had some conversations with matte before i bought the amp. beautiful sounding amp, but i liked my ac30 better and someone made an offer i couldn't refuse, so..........

[CPA]

I just played through an express amp named Marissa. Sustains like there is no tomorrow! Also has that lead tone that you just can't get it out of your head.:dude


I played another express (old transformer) a rocket and a liverpool. Wish I could buy the set. First find them for sael. Next how much cash would I need?

I'm happy with what I got and not a day goes by that I pray to The Lord and ask what did I ever do to deserve this?

Not only the tone but the feeling when you play it is something!

[matte]

i owned the first trem-rocket ken made. i had some conversations with matte before i bought the amp. beautiful sounding amp, but i liked my ac30 better and someone made an offer i couldn't refuse, so..........
hey pete!

[Leonc]

Pete! How's it goin, bud?

I played through two at Ultrasound. Gene's Express was outstanding. Loved the Rocket too. Also had the pleasure of playing through Bill H's a few years ago at one of the PRS forum events. Several folks also played through Mook's Express, IIRC...

[Geetarpicker]

I've played about 6-8, owned a Liverpool for a while, and currently own an Express that I got from Ken in '89.

I got turned onto them back in '89 when Steve @ Anglela instruments let me borrow his Express to check it out for a week. At the time I had been loyal to a '67 Marshall Superlead Plexi that I had played for about 10 years and thought I would find no substitute for. The Express had the good qualities of the Marshall, plus a thicker sound, much more gain if needed, and not near as loud. Through my relatively ineffient 25 watter loaded '68 Marshall cab I've actually done quite a number of gigs with the Wreck unattenuated. I actually found the Liverpool wasn't (at the time) loud enough for me in a live situation. These days though I probably wish I still had the Liverpool, though the Express has always been my favorite. The flexiblity it has with tube choices makes for quite a range of tones. Going from 6V6 to EL34s makes quite a difference, and preamp tubes all sound different in this amp.

I've never played any other amp that has as wide an envelope of tones when controlling it strictly with the guitar knobs. You have to have nice taper pots in your guitar, and know how to "work the amp". Then it's all right there.

I have yet to play a convincing clone. However the last one I played was about 2 years ago. However it sounds like folks are coming much closer these days. I'd like to play a recent clone effort by someone who really did their homework and had a real Express to compare side by side.

[cnardone]

Ginger...! :dude :dude :dude

Great-sounding amp, REALLY touch-sensitive...!

Never played one. But it was 2 feet in front of me when Dave played Ginger. I distinctly remember thinking, "Wow!!!!!".

I also fell in love with Dave's Baker p-90 that day.

cmn

[57special]

I sent my Express clone ( and a very nice one) to a friend and Express owner. Even after being tweaked with suitable tubes, his real Express was noticably sweeter and more musical. The clone was very similar sounding, but just not as good. Some people seem to want to believe that KF's amps are easily repeatable and/or nothing but hype. Others believe that TW's are a product of inspired design AND informed, talented, tweaking for each individual amp.
Lucky people just don't find any of the TW amps suitable to their style anyway.
A Climax is not considered a clone, just a product of a mistaken partnership between KF and GW.

[petemin]

hey matte and leon,

hope all's well. i moved to la in feb and i'm still getting used to it. not easy coming from nyc, but the weather right now is pretty awesome and it seems like there's more work out here for me. i'm still trying to cure myself of this affliction called g.a.s., but i just bought a gibson ga18t. aaaaaagggggggghhhhhhhh.....again, hope you guys are well.


-----------------------
petemin.com

[90wreck]

I never quite understood this type of statement. Yeah, it's an expensive amp....but if owned a Wreck, and it was my favorite amp, you can bet I'd be playin' it everywhere. You only live once....and life is too short for a "B rig" ;).
It is mint for one reason..
The other is that it breaks up really ealier than most amps I use.
When I really want to rock out and try to impress some known players it goes... I know that sounds lame... bUt for most cover gigs...Fairs and Fests..The other amps work just fine, and most pickers reconise(sp?)
my name brand amps and always comment.
My 'B" rigs are most peoples "A" rig.
Matcless, Bad cat, Plexi's, vintage Fender (65 Vibrolux and 62 bassman).
It's just to risky to take it unless it's a large stage and I don't have to haul/setup PA.
The Express stays boxed and hidden for the most part...I know that is nuts...But the price of them these days.
I gave less tha 1400- for mine when I wanted one so bad...Some guy walked into a guitar show in Columbus, Oh. with it in a cardborad box...Walked past thousands of people (back when the shows were good ).
Just out of the blue at the REAR of the show I said "whats in the box?" He showed and told me... Instantly I said "I'll take it!"
He Replied "Don't you want to hear it?"...I said "Nope"
He waited 2 years to get it. Was suppose to be destroyed by Kenny because it was " motor boating ".
According to Kenny it was going to be Lynch's amp or Eric J's. He couldn't remember which it was at the time we talked. Doesn't matter. Either one was fine....
But the next guy in line begged for the anp not to be destroyed because of his wait and Kenny sold to him.. He marked it a "second" and sold it at a reduced price.
The gentleman who bought it was a known amp ninja technician.
He replaced a bad resistor and that was it.
Kenny confrimed the repair and the story about Lynch/Johnson.
The amp was fixed through communication with Kenny and made another customer happy.
BTW...For those that don't know..Kenny would spend 30 hours or so to build an amp.
When he turned it on and it wasn't working right.
He would smash/destroy the amp with a ballbat!!! MAD SCIENTIST he is !!!LOL!
That is the truth, got it from the horses mouth.
There are onlyt 2 known 2'nds.
Geetarpicker has the other. If you have heard his clips you know that a 2'nd means nothing.
Sorry about the ramble. But this why I go to my "B" rigs.
Yes the Express sounds great...... there is a certain "Mystique" about the amp.
Very few were made and were quite pricey at the time for not having ANY features.

[TNJ]

I played a couple owned by wreckboy over in Hawaii, including a prototype.
Very nice...not quite my bag...but very nice!
In wreckboy's hands, those amps were his to command.
:cool:

S.
j

[RichSZ]

based on which specific fixed qualities? every wreck i've played/owned has been different,even within the confines of a particular model, so codification/reductionism of wreck "magic" and or "mojo" is a fool's errand.

Couldn't agree more about the "magic" or "mojo" comment. I put those in sarcastically because I get a kick out of reviews where people say there is a "magic" or a certain "mojo" to a certain amp. Nonsense.

HeeBGB or Allynmey could give specifics about their side-by-side comparison.

Yes, your Express amps probably did sound different from each other. I don't beleive that there were "night and day" differences though, but I do believe there were probably some significant character differences. I would guess it would be too hard to put into words what those differences were. Anything from the values of a few caps & resistors to the types of caps used could contribute to that. The parts used to build the real 'Wrecks are hard to find for us homebrewers. For example the PVC caps or the MOV across the standby switch, etc...

To say a real 'wreck is better than a clone is just as absurd as saying a clone 'wreck is better than the real thing. How do you know the builder of the clone isn't a better amp tech than KF? Just a thought.

-Rich

-Rich

[trisonic]

To say a real 'wreck is better than a clone is just as absurd as saying a clone 'wreck is better than the real thing. How do you know the builder of the clone isn't a better amp tech than KF? Just a thought.

-Rich

-Rich

Well, that begs the question that if so then why is he copying Ken's design rather than making his own?

Best, Pete.

[RichSZ]

Well, that begs the question that if so then why is he copying Ken's design rather than making his own?

Best, Pete.

Because someone wants a 'wreck but can't afford the cost. Not too hard to answer that question. If you want to take the cloning/original design argument further go search for "clone" threads.

-Rich

[trisonic]

Ah, but if you build a better Mouse Trap people will come running..........

So, maybe they are all frustrated original builders? In that they want clone builders to build copies of their own designs.

They will certainly end up with a better name for themselves in the long run if they did.

Best, Pete.

[matte]

Couldn't agree more about the "magic" or "mojo" comment. I put those in sarcastically because I get a kick out of reviews where people say there is a "magic" or a certain "mojo" to a certain amp. Nonsense.

HeeBGB or Allynmey could give specifics about their side-by-side comparison.

Yes, your Express amps probably did sound different from each other. I don't beleive that there were "night and day" differences though, but I do believe there were probably some significant character differences. I would guess it would be too hard to put into words what those differences were. Anything from the values of a few caps & resistors to the types of caps used could contribute to that. The parts used to build the real 'Wrecks are hard to find for us homebrewers. For example the PVC caps or the MOV across the standby switch, etc...

To say a real 'wreck is better than a clone is just as absurd as saying a clone 'wreck is better than the real thing. How do you know the builder of the clone isn't a better amp tech than KF? Just a thought.

-Rich

-Rich
rich,
great points all. please forgive my misreading of your previous post. better is a word i'll never use to describe anything as subjective as the tonal qualities of an amplifier.

[RMcFarland]

"MOV across the standby switch, etc..."

- exactly what difference would this make in tone? or is it mojo.



The idea that someones hands put special magic into a circuit is absurd. You follow the schematic, you get the tone. This is science people.

[Jerrod]

"MOV across the standby switch, etc..."

- exactly what difference would this make in tone? or is it mojo.



The idea that someones hands put special magic into a circuit is absurd. You follow the schematic, you get the tone. This is science people.

Except that schematics don't show which wires are really close to other wires, causing cross-talk and a bunch of stuff outside my knowledge. But it's real according to people who know.

[RichSZ]

Except that schematics don't show which wires are really close to other wires, causing cross-talk and a bunch of stuff outside my knowledge. But it's real according to people who know.

Very true, but nearly 100 detailed pics of the inside of a real 'wreck do show that stuff.

http://mywebpages.comcast.net/rszmagaj/twe1.JPG

http://mywebpages.comcast.net/rszmagaj/twe2.JPG

http://mywebpages.comcast.net/rszmagaj/twe3.JPG

[waxnsteel]

Never even played a fake one.

[pureoldsound]

Well the clone comparison is pointless and it will be an endless battle. Tone is so subjective that it’s not even funny….No one amp will sound better than the other but different, that is the word….

The guys that took the Francesca pics, had the real amp in their hands. They went the whole 9 yards with that amp and provided all the info necessary to make an exact copy of THAT PARTICULAR amp ONLY. We are all aware that they sounded different from one another as they were tweaked to each individual’s preferences. So, if you make an exact clone of one particular amp and put it side by side with another original there might be differences….

As for the wires I guess that has been showed and covered……

I guess this thread will not have much life, and soon it will be pulled but it was fun to read some thoughts of people who have played the real deal. I’ll love to play my F 85’ clone next to the real thing just to hear the differences and compare it…..

[Guitar James]

Well, that begs the question that if so then why is he copying Ken's design rather than making his own?

Best, Pete.
I have to agree with this point, just because you can clone something, doesn't mean you should.

[Terry Hayes]

"MOV across the standby switch, etc..."

- exactly what difference would this make in tone? or is it mojo.



The idea that someones hands put special magic into a circuit is absurd. You follow the schematic, you get the tone. This is science people.

You do seem to read things literally. Don't you ever allow yourself or others to engage in a bit of hyperbole? Of course, if you follow the schematic you get "A" tone. Whether or not it is "THE" tone is another story I would say. Not everyone is able to voice an amplifier (or any other musical instrument) so that it produces especially pleasing sounds. Hence the use of colorful terms to describe the part of the process not necessarily encompassed by the soldering itself.

If it is as simple as connecting the dots, I think I'll glue some bits of wood together when I get home from work and make myself the finest acoustic guitar the world has ever known.

Terry

[trisonic]

Yes in this thread I was just trying to make the point that the clone builders may be better off designing their own amps - if they are good they could come up with something startling.
As to the fact that they build clones because they can and that there is a demand for it, then consider this:

At the tag end of the '80s I spoke with Ken about him making me a Rocket. For whatever reason (at the time) I needed a 1x12 Combo. Ken wouldn't do it.
For two minutes I thought; you know what, the guy doesn't want my money....

No, it's because he has integrity. At the time he wanted his amps decoupled acoustically from the speaker cabinet also he didn't like any speaker that by itself could handle the power. In fact rather than saying he would build me a cabinet he suggested looking out for an old Vox 2x12 extension cab with the original speakers.

As it happens, I didn't have the time to go searching for the cabinet and the whole idea fell by the wayside as things do.

I'm assuming (not trying to rub anyone's faces in it) that this is the difference between an original talent and the guys who simply follow a schematic in order to meet a demand.

Best, Pete.

[RMcFarland]

I agree, people can "voice" an amp by changing the circuit, but making the same changes to a clone will result in an ALMOST identical amp considering part tolerances.

That said, I give props to the people that spend time coming up with the original ciruit, and feel they should be given compensation they require.


We really need to organize a blindfolded amp shootout and put some of the MOJO mumbo-jumbo to rest.

[Terry Hayes]

I agree, people can "voice" an amp by changing the circuit, but making the same changes to a clone will result in an ALMOST identical amp considering part tolerances.

That said, I give props to the people that spend time coming up with the original ciruit, and feel they should be given compensation they require.


We really need to organize a blindfolded amp shootout and put some of the MOJO mumbo-jumbo to rest.

Thanks for the clarification. I wasn't reading your original post in the proper context.

Terry

[CDaughtry]

It don't get any better than a good 'wreck through an AC 30 extension cab with original blues...:dude

[iggs]

I have to agree with this point, just because you can clone something, doesn't mean you should.

Guess we would never have Marshall amps in that case ...

[57special]

It don't get any better than a good 'wreck through an AC 30 extension cab with original blues...:dude

It's been rumoured that you might know the whereabouts of a Wreck or two...

[trisonic]

Guess we would never have Marshall amps in that case ...

Well, it's arguable. The JTM45 sounds different to the Bassman to me.
Leo Fender used Western Electric circuits - but try using a straight WE circuit as a guitar amp, presumably why Fender made so many amendments in the fifties.

Best, Pete.

[MikeyG]

I have a clone that I love. I heard Geetarpicker play his (in person and on video), but have never played one myself.

It captures that vibe, and is a joy to play. I'd love to A/B it with the real deal. I did A/B it with a Concorde, and it hangs nicely. A little less low end than the Concorde.

[trisonic]

In case anyone misunderstands me Komet Amplifiers are not a "Trainwreck Clone" company. They work very closely with Ken Fischer.

I'd certainly like a Concorde..............howzabout a Rockette?

Best, Pete.

[Jerrod]

Well, it's arguable. The JTM45 sounds different to the Bassman to me.
Leo Fender used Western Electric circuits - but try using a straight WE circuit as a guitar amp, presumably why Fender made so many amendments in the fifties.

Best, Pete.

Sure it does because they used different transformers, among other things. Doesn't mean there wasn't some intentional copying on JM's part. I, for one, don't have such a major issue with some "tributes" to the TW legacy.

[trisonic]

Sure it does because they used different transformers, among other things. Doesn't mean there wasn't some intentional copying on JM's part. I, for one, don't have such a major issue with some "tributes" to the TW legacy.

At least Jim didn't call it a "Baseman"! :p

Best, Pete.

[Jerrod]

At least Jim didn't call it a "Baseman"! :p

Best, Pete.

Or a "Bass". :cool:

[mtlin]

based on which specific fixed qualities? every wreck i've played/owned has been different,even within the confines of a particular model, so codification/reductionism of wreck "magic" and or "mojo" is a fool's errand.

I take it that he meant that the clones sounded as good (to him) as Francesca since that is the amp the clones were compared to. The fact that every 'Wreck is different (or so they say---I've never played one) is irrelevant to his point.

Best,

Martin

[trisonic]

Or a "Bass". :cool:

Jerrod, That was my point, mate. Sorry, it was a terrible joke....

Best, Pete.

[iggs]

I'm not trying to argue, just trying to understand what's the big deal ...
what about: Germino, Aiken, Metroamp, Victoria, Kendrick ... and countless others, all very talented and very well recognized and accepted builders, all of which have "clones" or at least almost identical circuits of past or present production amps.

Is it OK because Marshall and Fender are huge amp companies and it's OK to clone their designs but KF is a small builder and it's more "personal"?

I don't care either way ... hey, I just got a Route 66 and already gas-ing for a Intruder or Lead 55 ... :dude

[mockoman]

Never played one,but I've caused a few...

[CPA]

First I think we need to clarify some things first. As I have learned all amps are individuals and each are different. I had many ac-30hw's and they all sounded different. Same circuit and everything. Why? Things are made on an assembly line and everything is not exactly the same everytime. Play the same riff a few hundred times and tell me they ALL sound the same. As far as cloning amps there is NO comparison to the original wrecks. The length of the wire the composition of the wire the grade of aluminum etc are all different. E.T. is a difficult thing to understand and I doubt there is ANYONE on the same level of Ken Fisher except Dumble these days. I had some Komets setup by him and they all sounded different and they all sounded much better after he worked on them. Why? Same type of tubes, same speakers but they sounded different :confused:

Clone makers will do their thing so why isn't Ken going after them to stop? Maybe because they can't duplicate what He can do with his ears. It is a gift and not everyone has it.


Say what you want but for me I would buy an amp play it for a month and then start to look for something else because there was something missing. SInce I bought Marissa the only thing I want is another Trainwreck:dude

[Tag]

Who has played a real Trainwreck? What did you think?


Yes I have. A/Bd with 3 Dumbles, many TwoRocks,Brunos and other amps. I thought it was bright, harsh and brittle. The most over hyped amp I have ever played. :(

[RMcFarland]

dude, dude, dude!
some folks don't want nor need no silly blindfolded amp tests;
so long as we can listen with our ears, feel with our hands,
and pace amps through the crucibles of
performance and recording.
o, we can listen to the opinions of friends
whose sounds we know & respect,
and whose playing styles & depth of experience we "get".
or, listen to clips?
hmmmm.
dt / spltrcl

nice try. we all buy amps for those reasons. not the argued point though. we all love the tone. but the sound is the same clone or original.

[IPlayHamers]

If I can get some of the R&B tracks I'm working on placed and they become big hits I plan on buying an Express, Liverpool and Rocket for my personal studio. Not only are they great investments, but will certainly help me stand out from the current crop of R&B producers out there.

I also plan on investing in a "burst", some vintage Fenders and a original V and Explorer. Amp wise, I'll be getting some old Vox, Marshall, Hiwatt, Selmer and Laney stuff. (Yes, it's British thang!!!)

I can't see spending money on jewlery when there are so many guitars, amps and effects that need good homes.

IPH:AOK

[59model]

Yes I have. A/Bd with 3 Dumbles, many TwoRocks,Brunos and other amps. I thought it was bright, harsh and brittle. The most over hyped amp I have ever played. :(

I agree 100% so when it came time that I wanted a similar sound minus all the harshness, ripping highs, and low mids missing, I went with a clone and modified it. Ken may have made a few amps for different people, so I just think of it as one he would have made for me, and it works great for what I need. Total investment; $600 including tubes. Now to set a wet rig up for this bad boy....here we go again, LOL!

[Guitar James]

Yes I have. A/Bd with 3 Dumbles, many TwoRocks,Brunos and other amps. I thought it was bright, harsh and brittle. The most over hyped amp I have ever played. :(
Don't forget one mans harsh and brittle is another mans cutting through the mix.

[Jerrod]

nice try. we all buy amps for those reasons. not the argued point though. we all love the tone. but the sound is the same clone or original.

That's not why I buy... at least not the only reason. The feel is as (more?) important than the tone.

[RMcFarland]

he covered feel.

[mtlin]

I'm not sure, but there seems to be a hint of indignation over TW clones in some of the posts in this thread. But, if I'm not mistaken, Ken Fischer does not object to people cloning TW's for their personal use. So, if it's cool with him I guess it should be cool with all of us.

Martin

[mlongano]

Not wanting to start a war here, but do people here really believe that a $600.00 amp is in the same league (tone, feel, reliability, etc) with a $4,000, $5,000, or $20,000 amp?

I'm really not trying to be an elitist or anything...I just want to know people's opinions.

[hogy]

I'm not sure, but there seems to be a hint of indignation over TW clones in some of the posts in this thread. But, if I'm not mistaken, Ken Fischer does not object to people cloning TW's for their personal use. So, if it's cool with him I guess it should be cool with all of us.

Martin

It has become an industry with many people commercially benefitting from KF's work.
He very much objects to that. He also is ill, and has no internet access.

[pureoldsound]

I think he gets a bit uneasy if he sees people making a profit on his behalf that is all. I have yet to see a complaint on the TW forum about building TW clones either from him directly or from intermediary (Komet). I know there was a small dispute with Komet a while back because of a Komet clone but it ended there as no one is making them to sell; just for personal enjoyment since some can't afford to spend $4K on an amp. Also, based on my experience on that forum, most of the people on that forum are hobbyist, they will hesitate to sell or build an amp to an outsider. They will offer all the help you need to build your own and if you live close maybe one can arrange a visit to give a hand..

Further more the big companies that are supposedly selling a “clone”, are not really selling a clone per se. I think it is more of a variation to the design or their own interpretation. I’ve seen the insides of 3-4 Wreck inspired amps, they looked very different from a real Wreck (completely different values, layout, OT, PT, etc) maybe one or two similarities…..That is why KF has not gone after them. I owned one inspired wreck like amp. Very different design, sounded good, but it was different sounding from the F 85’ clone that I own right now…..

[pureoldsound]

Not wanting to start a war here, but do people here really believe that a $600.00 amp is in the same league (tone, feel, reliability, etc) with a $4,000, $5,000, or $20,000 amp?

I'm really not trying to be an elitist or anything...I just want to know people's opinions.

Do you really believe that it takes 4-5K to build and amp? No amp is worth 20K that it is just the demand and all the hype behind it. But don't tell me that it cost 20K to build an amp with all the best components.....I an sure it will be around 1K or maybe 2K the rest is to cover other expenses and profit...

[mlongano]

Do you really believe that it takes 4-5K to build and amp? No amp is worth 20K that it is just the demand and all the hype behind it. But don't tell me that it cost 20K to build an amp with all the best components.....I an sure it will be around 1K or maybe 2K the rest is to cover other expenses and profit...

I agree with you that a $20,000.00 amp reflects more it's rarity than it's cost to build, but I do believe that some $4,000.00 amps pretty accuartely represent their cost to build, their recapture of R&D, their advertising costs, and a fair profit for the manufacturer as well as the retailer and/or distributor.

I daresay most amp builders are not exactly "getting rich" from the sale of their amps.

[pureoldsound]

I agree with you that a $20,000.00 amp reflects more it's rarity than it's cost to buid, but I do believe that some $4,000.00 amps pretty accuartely represent their cost to build, their recapture of R&D, their advertising costs, and a fair profit for the manufacturer as well as the retailer and/or distributor.

I daresay most amp builders are not exactly "getting rich" from the sale of their amps.

4K still a lot of money to built an amp. There is no way that it will take 4K in parts to build it (unless you start using gold, diamonds, platinum, silver, etc) ....Yes you will have to add to the built R&D and pay a royalty or % to a 3rd person for his/her major input as well....but that is aside from the net to just build an amp....

[ericb]

I agree with you that a $20,000.00 amp reflects more it's rarity than it's cost to buid, but I do believe that some $4,000.00 amps pretty accuartely represent their cost to build, their recapture of R&D, their advertising costs, and a fair profit for the manufacturer as well as the retailer and/or distributor.

I daresay most amp builders are not exactly "getting rich" from the sale of their amps.

Ha, the magic words "Advertising Costs"... The funny thing though is the 4000.00-5000.00 amp guys do VERY VERY little advertising!!!! IRONIC? NAH.. It's just that guys are willing to pay that much for those amps anyway. The guys with lots of money to spend. NO biggie and good for them!!! IF those guys REALLY wanted to consider advertising costs they'd be charging $10,000 for those amps!! IF any of you work in the music industry and pay for color ads, you know what I'm saying.. I don't work in the music industry other than being a hell of a gearhead , collector, and barband guitarist, but I did in the mid 80's and I remember the costs for ads in Guitar Player, MIX, EQ, Guitar World ,etc... holy crap................ THen factor in color brochures, pictures,etc. etc.. then factor in the endorsers, etc,etc.. Now we have the internet... the world of FREE advertising for small builders without even trying!!! It's called 'word of mouth ' and it's better than any other type when you're talking about 4000.00 amps. Also free clips don't hurt any ;)

Eric

[mtlin]

It has become an industry with many people commercially benefitting from KF's work.
He very much objects to that. He also is ill, and has no internet access.

That's cool. I only meant to comment on hobbyists who do it for fun/personal use. He has every right in the world to object to anything else.

Martin

[mtlin]

Not wanting to start a war here, but do people here really believe that a $600.00 amp is in the same league (tone, feel, reliability, etc) with a $4,000, $5,000, or $20,000 amp?

I'm really not trying to be an elitist or anything...I just want to know people's opinions.

Price is determined by where the supply curve meets the demand curve. We know the supply of real TW's is miniscule. Is the demand curve perfectly correlated with tone, feel, reliability, etc? Not always. Look at what LP Jr.'s sold for back in the 50's compared to LP Standards (did they call them that back then?). Lots of people think Jr.'s can't be beat for tone, feel, reliability, etc.

[Jon Silberman]

I played Mooks. Not my style. Frankly, I liked the tones on his similar Homebrew better.

Please don't misconstrue this post as putting anyone else down. Obviously, tone is subjective - if we were all identical it would be boring.

[OldSchool]

I played a Kendrick clone and thought it was spectacular. http://www.thegearpage.net/board/images/icons/icon14.gif

[matte]

I played Mooks. Not my style. Frankly, I liked the tones on his similar Homebrew better.

Please don't misconstrue this post as putting anyone else down. Obviously, tone is subjective - if we were all identical it would be boring.application is everything. to me, tone is contextural. this has nothing to do with people being "identical" and everything to do with the function of any tool in service of a particular application.

[changeling]

application is everything. to me, tone is contextural. this has nothing to do with people being "identical" and everything to do with the function of any tool in service of a particular application.
yepperton....twas ever thus.

[itgoesto11uc]

It is mint for one reason..
The other is that it breaks up really ealier than most amps I use.
When I really want to rock out and try to impress some known players it goes... I know that sounds lame... bUt for most cover gigs...Fairs and Fests..The other amps work just fine, and most pickers reconise(sp?)
my name brand amps and always comment.
My 'B" rigs are most peoples "A" rig.
Matcless, Bad cat, Plexi's, vintage Fender (65 Vibrolux and 62 bassman).
It's just to risky to take it unless it's a large stage and I don't have to haul/setup PA.
The Express stays boxed and hidden for the most part...I know that is nuts...But the price of them these days.
I gave less tha 1400- for mine when I wanted one so bad...Some guy walked into a guitar show in Columbus, Oh. with it in a cardborad box...Walked past thousands of people (back when the shows were good ).
Just out of the blue at the REAR of the show I said "whats in the box?" He showed and told me... Instantly I said "I'll take it!"
He Replied "Don't you want to hear it?"...I said "Nope"
He waited 2 years to get it. Was suppose to be destroyed by Kenny because it was " motor boating ".
According to Kenny it was going to be Lynch's amp or Eric J's. He couldn't remember which it was at the time we talked. Doesn't matter. Either one was fine....
But the next guy in line begged for the anp not to be destroyed because of his wait and Kenny sold to him.. He marked it a "second" and sold it at a reduced price.
The gentleman who bought it was a known amp ninja technician.
He replaced a bad resistor and that was it.
Kenny confrimed the repair and the story about Lynch/Johnson.
The amp was fixed through communication with Kenny and made another customer happy.
BTW...For those that don't know..Kenny would spend 30 hours or so to build an amp.
When he turned it on and it wasn't working right.
He would smash/destroy the amp with a ballbat!!! MAD SCIENTIST he is !!!LOL!
That is the truth, got it from the horses mouth.
There are onlyt 2 known 2'nds.
Geetarpicker has the other. If you have heard his clips you know that a 2'nd means nothing.
Sorry about the ramble. But this why I go to my "B" rigs.
Yes the Express sounds great...... there is a certain "Mystique" about the amp.
Very few were made and were quite pricey at the time for not having ANY features.

Ah yes, one of my more memorable guitar show experiences.

[outtahear]

I daresay most amp builders are not exactly "getting rich" from the sale of their amps.
You have no ****in' idea.....yet hobbyist builders/Netsperts think a professional w/a decade or two experience should charge the equivalent of minimum wage.:rolleyes:

[Tag]

Don't forget one mans harsh and brittle is another mans cutting through the mix.

:jo And another mans cutting through the mix is this mans slicing through my eardrums. :messedup

[matte]

For the guys on here that own the real Wrecks,did Ken tweak any of those amps for you?
ken tweaked my first express, my liverpool and blackbox for me.

[Tag]

Not wanting to start a war here, but do people here really believe that a $600.00 amp is in the same league (tone, feel, reliability, etc) with a $4,000, $5,000, or $20,000 amp?




Yes. I know it for a fact. I A/Bd my $600 Deville against the Trainwreck and Dumbles. For cleans and very low gained tones, my DeVille smoked them. :AOK

[Jon Silberman]

application is everything. to me, tone is contextural. this has nothing to do with people being "identical" and everything to do with the function of any tool in service of a particular application.

I understand what you're saying and can agree partially but not totally because to me an amp is not identical, in its "toolness," to a hammer (unless you're literally using the hammer to produce sound waves intended as music).

Also, to me, in the context under discussion, application is not everything (unless perhaps if, by application, you're including the person doing the applying" personal subjectivity in which case, if I'm understanding you correctly, that's close to what I meant originally).

[grego7]

Sorry for the trainwreck noob question, but can anyone point me in the direction of some recorded examples of one of these amps? Not necessarily internet clips, but some recorded songs where the guitar amp is known to be a 'wreck?

Thanks in advance!

[matte]

I understand what you're saying and can agree partially but not totally because to me an amp is not identical, in its "toolness," to a hammer (unless you're literally using the hammer to produce sound waves intended as music). i carve air. i have tools that assist me in that activity.

[matte]

"""""ken tweaked my first express, my liverpool and blackbox for me"""""

Was their a reason,or what was it you didn't like,that you wanted the amps tweaked. Or what was it tweaked to have more or less of?


Hey by the way..cool tunes you have on your link.my tastes run towards more aggro/high gain sounds and kenny tweaked the amps to reflect that. thanks for listening.

[matte]

brilliant!

can i use your qoute in my sig matte?always/anytime!

[90wreck]

Ah yes, one of my more memorable guitar show experiences.
I Forgot you were there!!!
I plugged it in to one of your Matchless combo speakers (I think) Or it may have been Dereks....On the stage.
BTW C-One of my more memorable guitar show moments as well!
Another memoreable moment is me not buying that Blackguard Esquire you had for sale.........I think Reeder snagged it...???

[CPA]

I got Mr. Fisher to do a maintenance check on Marissa. He said she was not biased properly for 34's since she was biased for 6v6's. She sounds much better now! :)

[BobboVisMe]

I once did this girl who was a real trainwreck .. does that count ?? .. If it does I found her very responsive to touch and she had good pICK attack ...!

[allynmey]

Wow!!! Great Thread!!!! I think I can answer a bunch of questions here since at least 4-5 posts were about me!:AOK

I have played an Express (Francesca). It was me who took the pics:)
It sounds just like my clone. I used every original part (right down to the flea clips and perfboard). The amp cost about $600.00 in parts including the Cherry cabinet. People who have owned/own one said it would be damn hard to tell them apart. My opinion is KF is a great amp builder. The amp on the other hand is a collection of Fender and Marshall circuits. I rather give a lot of credit to some old guy in a white lab coat working at western electrc or RCA in the thirties. They designed the circuits. Anybody building these things from the 60's on up is a cloner. Not a bad thing mind you, just keeping perspective. The price is based on supply and demand. KF never got $20,000 for a new wreck that I know of.

With respects to the Komet clone on the TW site, that was me too...I'm guilty of Cloning a K60 for myself. The battle that started and disappeared need not have happened. The amp was for myself and no one else. I think the powers that be know that now.:jo

Both projects started with an love for the sound and craftsmanship of both amps. The truth is I was smitten with the K60 from the first time I saw gut shots of it on their site. It was a personal goal to build an exact replica for myself. I believe that the Komet is one of the finest made amps on the market. As can be seen on the TW forum, it is an exact copy right down to the last part. I will be doing a Concorde/KF-50 and a Liverpool this month. You should see my basement! That's where they stay!

In answer to the people who ask why don't you build your own designs, I do. The clones are for me as a personal challenge as a hobby. Didn't any of you build model planes, cars, and later hot rod clones when you were younger?:confused: Maybe some here are young and don't have the tinkering spirit some of us old timers have. We built everything for ourselves when we were young. Maybe some people here have more money than God and like to buy expensive gear. To each his own.

Finally, I have heard great clones and not so great clones. I have also heard some great originals and some lousy ones. I'm sure everyone here has also.

So build amps and rock out and enjoy:dude

Allynmey

[trisonic]

Here is a price list of Ken's from when he was making them regularly (towards the end, actually):

Express: $1,500
Liverpool: $1,600
Rocket: $1,800

Whilst definitely towards the high end of amp prices; at the same time a hardwood cabinet, loaded Boogie MkIV was about $1,600 too. Ken wasn't driving Bentleys' around that's for sure!

On the point about Western Electric et al from the '30's it would be interesting if you could make one exactly identical to their circuits and let us hear what it sounds like. With no modifications at all. All these guitar amp guys spent a lot of time tweaking........

Anyway, thanks for writing.


Best, Pete.

[Jon Silberman]

i carve air. i have tools that assist me in that activity.

Me, too (even if my carvings are, shall we say, a bit more "primitive" than yours :o :) )!

[Tag]

I agree 100% so when it came time that I wanted a similar sound minus all the harshness, ripping highs, and low mids missing, I went with a clone and modified it.

Sounds like its a stock old Marshall. :p

[drbob1]

"MOV across the standby switch, etc..."

- exactly what difference would this make in tone? or is it mojo.



The idea that someones hands put special magic into a circuit is absurd. You follow the schematic, you get the tone. This is science people.

This is easily demonstrated NOT to be true. Listen to any two vintage Fender amps side by side-they'll sound different even though they're all built with the same circuit and same parts. Why? Lead dress, wire routing, component variability, wood and speaker differences etc... I doubt it's possible to make two amps sound EXACTLY alike, although you can get pretty close with surface mount PCBs and 1% tolerance parts. The thing with Ken is that he would match individual components to get the sound he wanted (wants?), which is why having him tweek an amp is a big deal. Is the circuit inspired? Sure, but it's copyable. Will a clone ever sound exactly like one of the original TWs? Not likely, although it could happen by pure luck. On a much smaller scale, look at the Klon. There are no clones that sound exactly right, in spite of component and circuit matching-the layout must make some difference...

[RMcFarland]

I said in one of my posts "considering part/component tolerances". Given that, if assembled competently, the amp would fool you in a blind test. I would put $1,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 ,000,000.00 on it. It is plainly of the Peter Popoff miracle water variety. I have nothing against boutique amps, I buy them, I love them, same with vintage. But, it is more of an aesthetic thing. I have clone sitting in my studio of a popular Fender Tweed circuit. It is that vintage tweed, mojo-dripping tone...

[drbob1]

I agree with you that a $20,000.00 amp reflects more it's rarity than it's cost to build, but I do believe that some $4,000.00 amps pretty accuartely represent their cost to build, their recapture of R&D, their advertising costs, and a fair profit for the manufacturer as well as the retailer and/or distributor.

I daresay most amp builders are not exactly "getting rich" from the sale of their amps.

This is another fascinating discussion. KF doesn't get a penny of the $20k+ his amps now go for. He sold them for a very fair $1500 in the day. HAD doesn't get a penny from the $20k his amps sell for either. Hmmm, it'd be kinda cool if everyone sent 10% of the profit to KF when they eventually move a TW along to the next caretaker. Also cool if anyone building "clones" sent him a few bucks.

On the cost to build vs cost front, if KF ever felt well enough to build a few amps a year again, I wonder what he'd charge? Would I pay $10k for a NEW TW? Absolutely. Would I pay $20k? Probably not...

[57special]

back in the 80's, my amp tech at the time used to call up Ken whenever he ran into something he couldn't handle- which was pretty often, as he wasn't very good! Ken was very patient and forthcoming with him, and me , and never charged us a dime. He would mention these goofy amps with no reverb, master, or speaker that he was building at the time :NUTS , but i was kind and never told him that they were bound to be duds.:jo
I hope KF's health DOES allow him to build a couple of amps a year, and that gets what the market dictates (or more). God knows he deserves it, as i'm sure as he has had many a lean year in the past to make up for. This is a situation common to many artists.

[Normster]

Wow, great thread! I've never played a real Trainwreck, but I have built a clone of Francesca based on the pictures and information at the TW forum. I've also built and played 5 different Dumble clones, all based on different era Dumbles. I also have a Komet 60 clone in progress.

To reiterate what Allyn said, there are those of us who love the artform that these great amps represent and build clones as both a hobby and as a tribute. As for the "original designs" comment, there are quite a few hobbyists on various amp forums who have indeed come up with some great original designs. You won't hear much about them on TGP, but they're cool amps nonetheless.

[iggs]

This is another fascinating discussion. KF doesn't get a penny of the $20k+ his amps now go for. He sold them for a very fair $1500 in the day. HAD doesn't get a penny from the $20k his amps sell for either. Hmmm, it'd be kinda cool if everyone sent 10% of the profit to KF when they eventually move a TW along to the next caretaker. Also cool if anyone building "clones" sent him a few bucks.

Should the same be applied to all the Marshall and Fender cloners as well?
Still don't understand what is the difference between somebody cloning a Trainwreck and somebody cloning a Marshall. The designs of both constitute as intellectual property, why would it be OK to clone a Marshall or Fender and not a Trainwreck or Dumble?

[guitarpkr67]

[quote=drbob1]HAD doesn't get a penny from the $20k his amps sell for either. quote]

I could be wrong, but I'm pretty sure HAD does sell his amps for a pretty penny now.

[RichSZ]

KF doesn't get a penny of the $20k+ his amps now go for. He sold them for a very fair $1500 in the day. HAD doesn't get a penny from the $20k his amps sell for either. Hmmm, it'd be kinda cool if everyone sent 10% of the profit to KF when they eventually move a TW along to the next caretaker. Also cool if anyone building "clones" sent him a few bucks.

On the cost to build vs cost front, if KF ever felt well enough to build a few amps a year again, I wonder what he'd charge? Would I pay $10k for a NEW TW? Absolutely. Would I pay $20k? Probably not...

This statement actually made me chuckle out loud. And then you say you'd pay 10 grand for a new TW? What's that PT Barnum quote....?

[MikeyG]

The results of this survey have stayed at 1 in 5 pretty consistently throughout this thread.

In the universe of guitar players, it's gotta be closer to 1 in 100,000 or more, is my guess.

[drbob1]

Should the same be applied to all the Marshall and Fender cloners as well?
Still don't understand what is the difference between somebody cloning a Trainwreck and somebody cloning a Marshall. The designs of both constitute as intellectual property, why would it be OK to clone a Marshall or Fender and not a Trainwreck or Dumble?

I'm not arguing whether cloning is moral or not. And I do think there's a difference between Jim and Leo, who've long since cashed in on their success, and a guy like KF who's a small company no longer able to do the work to pay the bills. Fender could go after Victoria if they wanted, Marshall could take on Germino, but they both know the world is big enough for homages to their classic products. Heck, the boutique world is growing and Fender, Vox and Marshall are all cashing in with their handwired amp. Ken isn't much cashing in on anything he's done before, so it would be a decent thing to do to send him money when you resell one of his amps at a huge profit. HAD I've never spoken to, so I can't really comment, but KF is a really nice guy in a really crappy situation. There're only a few companies selling clones of TW stuff for profit-I wonder if they'd consider a small royalty to Ken?

[scottcw]

KF is a really nice guy in a really crappy situation. There're only a few companies selling clones of TW stuff for profit-I wonder if they'd consider a small royalty to Ken?

Has he ever offered to consult with them to tweak their clones to his liking? that would be worth a royalty.

[ross]

Everyone here seems to think Ken Fisher is this great guy that fell into bad times. I would not know, I have never met, talked or had any communication with him. I will assume that he is a person that has decided not to have Trainwreck amps produced. Clones are fair game.

[57special]

Has he ever offered to consult with them to tweak their clones to his liking? that would be worth a royalty.

That worked out really well with Gerald Weber!

[FlyingVBlues]

Everyone here seems to think Ken Fisher is this great guy that fell into bad times. I would not know, I have never met, talked or had any communication with him. I will assume that he is a person that has decided not to have Trainwreck amps produced. Clones are fair game.

Ken Fischer didn’t “decide” to stop making amps. He has several serious health issues (chronic fatigue syndrome and a vestibular balance disorder) that significantly limit his ability to actively build amps.

FVB

[matte]

Everyone here seems to think Ken Fisher is this great guy that fell into bad times.

he is, he did


I would not know, I have never met, talked or had any communication with him. i do, i have



I will assume that he is a person that has decided not to have Trainwreck amps produced.he didn't. his health issues dictated his situation.

Clones are fair game.why?

[Normster]

It may seem like the right thing to do to root for the little guy, but Leo and Jim brought amps to the masses...and were rewarded for their trouble. Ken and Howard took a different approach that had a different set of rewards. I have great respect for artists like Ken and Howard, but let's not confuse business with art. I doubt that either of them would want to be seen as charity cases that need to be compensated over and over again for something they accomplished many years ago. There's enough of that going on in Hollywood.

[scottcw]

Does anyone have a copyright on the I-IV-V progression?

[shallbe]

I've never viewed Hogy that way. I've spoken to him on the phone a few times, and never gotten an attitude. I'm nobody, and I've never even seen a K60 in person. I do own a Constellation.

Regarding karma, props to Hogy and Mike for doing it right. They work with Ken on his schedule to get new KF designs out in the hands of the playing public, and Ken is compensated. Dr. Z did the same with the Airbrake.

The difference for me is that Ken and HAD are individuals. You wanna tangle with Fender/Marshall/Boogie? Have at it. They have the resources to stop you. Quick. Ken and HAD don't, and that is part of the equation.

The difference between Komet and others are the relationship with THE SOURCE and the fact that if Ken doesn't sign off on it, it does not get released.

[allynmey]

Johnspeck................Great Post!:cool:

Something doesn't add up to me though. If Komet sells $4000.00 amps and Ken gets a cut, how come everyone says Ken is destitute? Is his cut too small? Are there not enough Komet amps being sold for Ken to get by? Should Ken hook up with a more lucrative deal with another company?:D

Far be it for me to point out the obvious but, Ken has not lost one dime on Trainwreck Clones (Express, Liverpool, and Rocket) since he doesn't build them anymore!!! So let's end that line of bull from people who come on the forum and one...either own one and like to thumb their noses at us serfs that don't or two...Are trying to keep the soap opera up to raise the value of their TW's to bolster their portfolio.

This leaves us with Ken's current financial endeavor with Komet. If he is not making enough on their deal I suggest he find a new company to do business with. No accusations here but, when one half of a partnership tells everybody that their partner in business is starving, it doesn't make the business look...shall we say, stable.;) I think that a KF designed amp for $2000.00 would sell like hotcakes. The market will not support endless sales of $4000.00 amp but, even a kid with a credit card will buy a 2K tone monster. Since I know how much it costs to build a Komet 60,;) I think I know what I'm talking about.

Allynmey

[mlongano]

Since I know how much it costs to build a Komet 60,;) I think I know what I'm talking about.

Allynmey

I think you're confusing the cost to build a Komet 60 by a legitimate company, including direct and indirect costs such as general liability insurance, facilities rent, payroll, FICA, SUTA, Futa, Workman's Compensation, electricity, gas, phone, website maintenance, royalties, distributor percentages, retailer percentages, warranty work, R&D, advertising, etc., etc., .....

....with the cost to steal someone else's design and buy wood, tolex, wire, capacitors, tubes, and assemble an amplifier.

[procos]

All due respect to KF first and foremost.

I admit that I have two amps I paid to have built, that were intentionally based on Trainwreck designs. I bought them from a hobbyist builder.

I don't have a pot to piss in money-wise, but I'd be happy to give a percentage of what I paid to KF to keep my karma cool. I'm sure the builder would too, he's only made a handful, and he charged next to nothing...

Now I'll get something off my chest that has been bugging me since reading this thread and the many others like it.

With the exception of one or two current/former owners who seem to be humble and grateful to have a 'Wreck for less than investment-grade money, the rest of you come off like arrogant little brats on the playground. "MY toy is cooler than yours!"

You all want to claim membership in an exclusive club, good for you. Don't make a moral issue out of the fact that everybody wants to go fast in a Cobra, take a ride in zero gravity, marry some starlet, play a Trainwreck, or whatever else turns their crank.

Why do people want Trainwreck amps? Because you all make them seem so 'unobtanium'. And perish the thought that somebody else might have as much fun as you, unless somehow they find a way to re-mortgage the house to get one, IF one is available. "Welcome to our club."

I don't care HOW much this gets me flamed, I'm posing this question. Would Komet be perceived anywhere near the elevated status they are nowadays, if the only amp they ever produced was the Connie, and they had no connection with KF whatsoever?

Hogy, your amps always intrigued me and had me lusting. I appreciate the great info you can share. However, your attitude on this forum and others over the years has mostly been very condescending. I can't imagine you want or need my money, you certainly don't act like you do. You come across like someone who'd pick and choose his clientele. "Any club that'd have me..." ;)

Like I said, I haven't got two dimes to rub together, but I'd gladly go clean Ken's house, give him rides places, shop for him, make dinner, give him some money to offset his bills and my karma... "Whateva" as Ken would say!

Can you fine folks that belong to this very exclusive club please turn down the knob marked "snark"?

Thanks!

Joh,
I gotta say I agree with alot of what you say about some of the wreck owners. With that being said Charlie Daughtry seems like one of the nicer guys around. Also what you said about Hogy couldn't be further from the truth. Hogy is a solid guy and has helped me out on many occassions on many other issues regarding amps that aren't even Komets.

Also my father has had Chronic Fatigue Syndrome since 1993. He was a minority owner in a Tool and Die company here in Detroit and got screwed by his other partners because he couldn't even make it to work on many days. Thank god he got a good lawyer and ended up raking them over the coals and walked away with a nice chunk of change. I will tell you my father went through hell for about 5 years when his CFS was at it's peak. He luckily has beaten it for the most part but if KF has a bad case of it I truly feel for him. The bad part about the disease is there is no definitive test and alot of people think it is in your head. Well I know for a fact it is truly a physical disease.

Chuck

[procos]

As it stands, Ken could be selling kits or transformers, etc. if he wanted.


Not a bad idea.

[allynmey]

I think you're confusing the cost to build a Komet 60 by a legitimate company, including direct and indirect costs such as general liability insurance, facilities rent, payroll, FICA, SUTA, Futa, Workman's Compensation, electricity, gas, phone, website maintenance, royalties, distributor percentages, retailer percentages, warranty work, R&D, advertising, etc., etc., .....

....with the cost to steal someone else's design and buy wood, tolex, wire, capacitors, tubes, and assemble an amplifier.

My friend, you seem to be missing the point. The argument here is one of mis/redirection. I have nothing against Komet. I feel they one of the most beautifully made amps on the market. We were discussing KF and his situation in the last couple of posts. When anybody mentions any commercial builder like Dr. Z, Komet or any other like enterprise, supporters always pull the KF card. They say you should support those builders because they are KF's life support. I think not. Ken was Ken before his business dealings and he will be Ken after them. Ken made a great amp and believe me, if he wants to make himself a better deal, he will. There is nothing to stop ken from designing a great amp, stamping his name on it, having it build buy a small group of builders with him overseeing the project, releasing it as a limited run and cleaning up! Would you spend $7500.00 on a KF amp knowing that there is only 100 made and everyone signed by Ken Fischer? They will be worth double almost immediately. They will cost $700-900 ea. with a wood cab and less than $500.00 for labor. That's $6100-6300.00 profit per unit. But wait a minute, will that devalue the current wrecks from their ridiculous $30,000 price tag? I wish it would but, it won't. I guess it's easy to believe the mojo stories when you don't build amplifiers your self!

Allynmey

[59model]

Johnspeck................Great Post!:cool:

Something doesn't add up to me though. If Komet sells $4000.00 amps and Ken gets a cut, how come everyone says Ken is destitute? Is his cut too small? Are there not enough Komet amps being sold for Ken to get by? Should Ken hook up with a more lucrative deal with another company?:D

Far be it for me to point out the obvious but, Ken has not lost one dime on Trainwreck Clones (Express, Liverpool, and Rocket) since he doesn't build them anymore!!! So let's end that line of bull from people who come on the forum and one...either own one and like to thumb their noses at us serfs that don't or two...Are trying to keep the soap opera up to raise the value of their TW's to bolster their portfolio.

This leaves us with Ken's current financial endeavor with Komet. If he is not making enough on their deal I suggest he find a new company to do business with. No accusations here but, when one half of a partnership tells everybody that their partner in business is starving, it doesn't make the business look...shall we say, stable.;) I think that a KF designed amp for $2000.00 would sell like hotcakes. The market will not support endless sales of $4000.00 amp but, even a kid with a credit card will buy a 2K tone monster. Since I know how much it costs to build a Komet 60,;) I think I know what I'm talking about.

Allynmey

Allynmey knows a lot about these amps, and is a frequent poster at the wreck forum, as well has helped a lot of folks out there who asked questions....like me, a newbie there. I think he even posted a Komet clone pic that he built. Looked sweet. Good man that knows his DIY stuff.
:dude

[Steve Snider]

I have. Cool amps. I like my Concorde better than any of the wrecks I played. The Liverpool was very cool for what it did IMHO. I have also played some very good clones.

[wsaraceni]

I think you're confusing the cost to build a Komet 60 by a legitimate company, including direct and indirect costs such as general liability insurance, facilities rent, payroll, FICA, SUTA, Futa, Workman's Compensation, electricity, gas, phone, website maintenance, royalties, distributor percentages, retailer percentages, warranty work, R&D, advertising, etc., etc., .....

....with the cost to steal someone else's design and buy wood, tolex, wire, capacitors, tubes, and assemble an amplifier.


great post!!!!

[riverastoasters]

Why do people want Trainwreck amps? Because you all make them seem so 'unobtanium'.

If that worked, then wouldn't I want one?

I don't want one. I've played enough things by people who are of the Ken Fischer school of thought to be pretty skeptical that the "real deal" would sound appealing to me.

Consider this: I have a few amps which are generally regarded as pretty happening. But one of my favorites is the Rivera 100 Watt Rake Reverb. I have one. As far as I know, only one other of those was made, and then there is also the single known example of the 100 Watt Jake combo. That's it. Go ahead, call Paul Rivera and ask him to build one. He told me no. Why? I have no idea. I assume he will tell you no. So that's pretty much unobtainium. If you go looking for that amp, you better get there before I do.

So do you want one yet? I can be very confident that most people reading this will be much more interested in a "real" Trainwreck than in the much rarer 100 Watt Rivera Rake Reverb. More fool them, I say, but I am pretty sure it is the truth. Just because it's unobtainium doesn't mean that a lot of people want one.

In fact, if a lot of people wanted a 100 Watt Rake Reverb then Rivera would probably make some more.

[ross]

Why does everyone assume that KF no longer builds amps? If you go to the official trainwreck web-site, it is implied that you can still order an amp and the site has been up-dated in the near past (June 2006).

[davess23]

Small builders ("cloners" or whatever) can be just what's needed to jolt the big kids out of complacency or the bad habit they get in of pushing poorly made, ill-conceived mass-produced crap at the market.

Small shop luthiers did this to Martin, by offering kick-ass recreations of old designs that the Martin organization had decided not to bother with anymore while they focused a lot of effort on the lower end of the market. It's arguable that Santa Cruz and Collings got Martin back into the business of building good guitars.

Small shop amp builders have a similar effect on giants like Marshall and Fender, too. I doubt there'd be much in the way of reissues of the 1974x or the tweed Twin if small builders hadn't convinced the powers that be that there was a viable market for this stuff.

My point is that you can either blame small builders for being copycats or you can congratulate them on helping people get great instruments that aren't being offered any more by the original makers...and in some cases, getting the big guys to go back to basics and put quality back into what they do.

[hamrhed1]

Small builders ("cloners" or whatever) can be just what's needed to jolt the big kids out of complacency or the bad habit they get in of pushing poorly made, ill-conceived mass-produced crap at the market.

Small shop luthiers did this to Martin, by offering kick-ass recreations of old designs that the Martin organization had decided not to bother with anymore while they focused a lot of effort on the lower end of the market. It's arguable that Santa Cruz and Collings got Martin back into the business of building good guitars.

Small shop amp builders have a similar effect on giants like Marshall and Fender, too. I doubt there'd be much in the way of reissues of the 1974x or the tweed Twin if small builders hadn't convinced the powers that be that there was a viable market for this stuff.

My point is that you can either blame small builders for being copycats or you can congratulate them on helping people get great instruments that aren't being offered any more by the original makers...and in some cases, getting the big guys to go back to basics and put quality back into what they do.

Well said.

When opportunity is knocking, someone is going to answer. If the original designer doesn't...somebody else will. It's the Circle-Of-Life Simba. :AOK

Thank God for the Cloners bringing exact copies of these overpriced amps to us for a fraction of the cost. These circuits are very well understood and measured by the cloners. It must be true that the variation between the originals and the clones is no more than the variation between original individuals. And if that is true...if you've played a dead-on clone of the components and the circuit, haven't you pretty much played an original?
Can I change my vote? :jo

[BJF]

Hi,

I'll pull the KF card:
What good does it do KF that his name or trademark would be used on designs that he'd not have any particurlar benefit from?

Why not call a new amp White Frock 30? Might tell it's based on Western Electric designs if anybody really wants to know what's under the hood of a fantastic sounding amp...........

It would appear that the magic is not in the circuit of an amp but in the ears and hands and a name and what that name might stand for..............
:angel
Just a thought
BJ

http://ampgarage.com/forum/viewforum.php?f=1&topicdays=0&start=0

[hansoloist]

I played an Express at Utrasound a few years ago. I thought it was killer, but there's plenty out there that blows my skirt up way higher. Definitely unique in many respects.

I was subsequently told that the Wreck I played was "sick" (Crohn's disease? Shingles? Balanitis? I can't quite remember what the ailment was) so perhaps I didn't get the full effect.

Interesting to hear that Ken objects to people in the industry benefiting from his work. I wonder if Jim Marshall or Leo Fender, may he rest in peace, feel the same way about people in the industry benefiting, or who have benefited, from their work...guys like, oh, umm, I don't know, Ken Fischer.;)

peace
-jeff

[MikeyG]

I'm told that the Express has a lot of similarities to a Bassman circuit. True? I'm not sure. I'm sure the cloners can confirm/deny.

As Hans said, everybody borrows.

Companies like Dr. Z claim they start every amp design with a blank sheet. That may be true, but in the end, they end up sounding alot like vintage amp 'X' (Vox, Fender, Marshall, what have you).

If Ken were fortunate enough to have maintained good health, and cranked out 1000 Expresses over the years, would they fetch 20,000 a piece, today? My hunch is no .... doesn't mean they're not great amps. But there a loads of great amps out there.

[scottcw]

I'm told that the Express has a lot of similarities to a Bassman circuit.

I've been told the Express is essentially a specific variant of the Bassman that was not around long tweaked for EL34s instead of 6L6s.

[iggs]

I've been told the Express is essentially a specific variant of the Bassman that was not around long tweaked for EL34s instead of 6L6s.

Hhhhmmmm ... sounds familiar ... ;)

[Frankenstrat2]

Part I
Back in the day I was a regular reader of Vintage Guitar mag, well before there were any Internet Forums to subscribe to. Ken Fischer, Gerald Weber, and Dean Farley were regular contributors. I admired all of their columns and soaked up as much information as I could from these new and (to me) remarkable sources.
Ken's column is where I first read about Bill Finnegan's Klon Centaur pedal, which I still have (thankfully) It was also where I read about the Crowther HotCake, ordered one, and foolishly sold it a few years later. (It was a great pedal, but didn't work for me at the time).
I corresponded with Ken, and since he was in shooting range, I planned a trip to his workshop hoping to try several of his amps, and planning in my mind to order the one I liked best. As Pete quoted earlier, the prices at the time were around $1500-1800 for any of the heads.
My last phone message to Ken was unanswered, and shortly thereafter he announced on his answerphone that he had become ill. He promised to finish any existing orders, but he could not take any new orders. I had never sent him a deposit. I called Ken sporatically for several months afterwards hoping that he was better and I could place an order. He never returned my calls, and I moved on.
It was nearly 10 years later until I first laid eyes on a real Trainwreck and got to play one. As Leon mentiond, Babaji had brought one to the last PRS Forum event, and was generous enough to put it on stage and leave it there for any of the subsequent jammers to plug into if they were interested. Of course I jumped on the opportunity. I remember being....disappointed. But it was an odd circumstance and no real way to demo and explore a rare highly vaunted amp. I played two songs through it with Leon, Tom Gross, BluesDoc and a drummer, and thought..."Is that all there is?"
Later, at the NYC ToneFest, there were at least two Wrecks that made appearances. I can't recall the owners, but possibly it was Chi? I rember the demos sounding impressive, but very gainey, a bit harsh- 'almost (but not quite) what Tag describes.
Later, Leon and I visited Ultrasound and had an amazing day playing through Gene's in-house collections of 'Wrecks, Dumbles, and other exotica. I recall Gene giving us a demonstration of a bad-sounding Dumble (yes!) and then his holy grail Tan EL-34, and a Trainwreck Express lesson including how critical good tubes and proper biasing can be in those amps. I liked them better that time, but the tan Dumble absolutely destroyed me- like an imprinting on a baby.
Finally, I got down to the Tampa ToneFest a few years back, and Glen (Geetarpicker) showed up with his honest-to-god real '59 burst and his Express (correctly referred to as a 'factory second'). Glen demo'd that amp through a carefully selected very prime old Marshall basketweave 4x12.
It was the first and only time I heard an Express played by a pro player, on an optimal guitar, through an optimal cab. Glen is the owner of the amp, and keeps it properly tuned up, and he knows its sweet spot all too well. Glen is also a terrific player, and could walk that amp through every range of tone and drive imaginable, from clean country chicken-pickin to high gain antics. It was a revelation. No ice picky harsh sounds there- just raucus rock n roll tones at their best, but also versatility and depth of possibility.
Glen was very generous with his time and his gear. He let anyone who asked try his amp and/or his guitar! It was the first and only time I have ever held a real '59. There is a reason it is considered the holiest of holy grail guitars. I think I can spell stradivarius. But the Glen's Express?
I could not make it work for me. Is it one of these macho things? Perhaps I'm just not enough of a player to control it?
I can't say. It seemed to be just 'too much' amp for me. Not the volume- the gaininess, maybe 'too' responsive so it became intimidating? Hard to say.
In my experience an amp is an extension of an instrument. In my experience, sometimes a player needs a good deal of time with an amp to be comfortable with it, to find its sweet spot, and to gain control, especially on higher gain amps, which are not my forte.
Part II is regarding 'mojo' and clones.
I'm not an amp builder, and I'm barely a player. I just know what I like and dislike, what excites , confuses or fails to inspire me. I do think that 10 years of exposure to good vintage and boutique gear has helped to sharpen my listening abilities, and also helped make me a jaded in my expectations.
Since it is a well-established fact that not all vintage gear was created equally (amps, guitars, and fx) and that many hand build early boutique-era amps were hand tweaked for particular owners (thinking Dumble, Trainwreck, Kelly, very early Boogies, etc) then it stands to reason that modern home-brew clones should also exhibit a wide range of quality or lack-thereof depending on variables already discussed.
I do understand the scientific notion that any two electronic cricuits that are EXACTLY alike in every respect MUST perform the same (in theory). In practice, seeing how much variability there is in the quality control of what has now been established to be approximately $600 in parts (for an Express clone) -
Sad truth is, in practice, this is simply not the case. It must drive builders (and luthiers) crazy that one creation comes off the bench with a soul and a spark of genious while the next one doesn't.
Interesting insight about KF smashing the amps that did not meet his expectations. Carl Faberge (the jeweler to the Imperial Court of Russia) used to do the same thing.
So are all clones equal to the amps they emulate? Of course not. Are they equal to other clones built by various builders? Doubtful. Is each hand-built amp the same as the previous or succeeding amp even built by the same hands in the same shop using the same batch of parts- probably not, but perhaps in less discernable differences.
I'd really like to play a 'good' Wreck clone, as opposed to some of the 'Wreck 'tribute' amps I have played (and enjoyed, too BTW) I guess I would know it was a good one if it sounded stunning if someone like Glenn Geetarpicker was at the helm, and then if I played it it felt like it was 'getting away from me"
Finally- I'll avoid the ethical debate of clones and ownership of circuitry. Its moot, and seems to signal the downfall of interesting threads such as this in short order.

[trisonic]

Baz,
You'd probably prefer the Rocket to the Express.
It's haunted me since I played one. TW's may be rare but Rockets even more so. I'll probably never play another one ever (or see one).
Btw I contributed to some of Dean articles (just some stories and data) which he credited me with, I was surprised to see them on his website, very nice guy as well (Dean is).

Best, Pete.

[plexi67]

""""I'm told that the Express has a lot of similarities to a Bassman circuit. True? I'm not sure. I'm sure the cloners can confirm/deny.

As Hans said, everybody borrows."""""

Thats very true,Marshall borrowed from fender,and from Wem to make the 18 watter. Most all of the Wrecks are Borrowing almost the same circuits,some the same,some just a few tweaks in the circuit from different amps. Most any amp builders have seen or used these same circuits,or a small tweaked version of them. Almost everything in the Express you could point out from Marshall or Fender,a little of both.

The Liverpool and Rocket would also fall into the same style of borrowing.
But the thing is,in some of these amps,small differences can change how they may respond in some sections of the amp. So yes i'm sure Ken measured the values to make sure they were what he wanted.
Also another key thing is the transformers. No matter what circuit is matched to the amp,if you don't use the right transformers,then it won't sound the same,or as it should.
All these add up,or go together. And then the amp needs a nice cab to play it through. I'm sure the amp could sound different using cabs or speakers that were different than what the amps were designed to use. There are not too many amps or builders that don't use or borrow something that has been a tried and true circuit. I'm sure many builders don't like to do clones,they build them because thats what someone may want,or the amps are to rare,or just not any on the market. I'd say any amp you could name has circuit somewhere in it that has been used before.

Richie

[pureoldsound]

I just looked at some 60's and 70's bassman pics and I can't tell if the same values can be found on an Express but I surely saw some similarities....

Plexi very similar to the bassman as well....

[Ed DeGenaro]

All due respect to KF first and foremost.

I admit that I have two amps I paid to have built, that were intentionally based on Trainwreck designs. I bought them from a hobbyist builder.

I don't have a pot to piss in money-wise, but I'd be happy to give a percentage of what I paid to KF to keep my karma cool. I'm sure the builder would too, he's only made a handful, and he charged next to nothing...

Now I'll get something off my chest that has been bugging me since reading this thread and the many others like it.

With the exception of one or two current/former owners who seem to be humble and grateful to have a 'Wreck for less than investment-grade money, the rest of you come off like arrogant little brats on the playground. "MY toy is cooler than yours!"

You all want to claim membership in an exclusive club, good for you. Don't make a moral issue out of the fact that everybody wants to go fast in a Cobra, take a ride in zero gravity, marry some starlet, play a Trainwreck, or whatever else turns their crank.

Why do people want Trainwreck amps? Because you all make them seem so 'unobtanium'. And perish the thought that somebody else might have as much fun as you, unless somehow they find a way to re-mortgage the house to get one, IF one is available. "Welcome to our club."

I don't care HOW much this gets me flamed, I'm posing this question. Would Komet be perceived anywhere near the elevated status they are nowadays, if the only amp they ever produced was the Connie, and they had no connection with KF whatsoever?

Hogy, your amps always intrigued me and had me lusting. I appreciate the great info you can share. However, your attitude on this forum and others over the years has mostly been very condescending. I can't imagine you want or need my money, you certainly don't act like you do. You come across like someone who'd pick and choose his clientele. "Any club that'd have me..." ;)

Like I said, I haven't got two dimes to rub together, but I'd gladly go clean Ken's house, give him rides places, shop for him, make dinner, give him some money to offset his bills and my karma... "Whateva" as Ken would say!

Can you fine folks that belong to this very exclusive club please turn down the knob marked "snark"?

Thanks!
And this is where the problem is...why in the world would it matter to anyone that somebody gets to hit his nails with a rare hammer?

Personally (as a muso) I'm sooooooooooooooooooooooooo against cloning without paying royalties.
As for wrecks...just like Dumbles...played them, thought they did their thing really well, no need for me to jump off that cliff. Well, unless I fins a SSS. :)

[Geetarpicker]

Thanks folks for kind mentions of me.

Yes the Express is similar in some ways to a certain era blackface Bassman, the bass channel to be specific. There is a certain era Bassman that has a 3 gain stage preamp, like the Wreck does. However the Bassman has a totally different EQ that sounds much more scooped than a Wreck. Overall the amps sound totally different, but the schematics looks quite similar in basic concept, though component values are quite different.

I remember taking my Wreck to the Florida tone fest and being somewhat underwhelmed with my Express tone that day. It turned out later that I found that my cab was just not right for that amp. I had recently bought the cab I brought that day, and had sold my prior favorite cab. Later after the tonefest I actually sold that cab and was lucky enough to buy back the cab I should have kept in the first place. My Express seems to work best with a 25 watter equiped Marshall 4x12, and just gets too bright with a 30 watter equiped cab.

I think my clips are on this site somewhere, but you have to log on to get them:

http://ampgarage.com/forum/

[plexi67]

yes,similar, the Phase inverter is Marshall/fender and many others use it.. the feedback circuit is the same too. The bias supply[style] is also taken from the marshall. Gain stge,uses some values you might see in the MV marshall..with the 10k cathode resistor.

Nothing wrong with any of this. Ken modded and repaired amps,designed and built amps. Like most that do this, they use what they know works,and sounds good. The layout is well thought out,of short leads,and not many crossing of wires.Lets say,its all there for a reason,and not just slapped together.
Now if he didn't try these things, you wouldn't have the amp you have today. Just alot of things to list. like was mentioned,the right cab and speakers,and good tubes,make a big difference in these amps. And it wouldn't hurt to be able to play like
Geetarpicker..

[Frankenstrat2]

Baz,
You'd probably prefer the Rocket to the Express.
It's haunted me since I played one. TW's may be rare but Rockets even more so. I'll probably never play another one ever (or see one).
Btw I contributed to some of Dean articles (just some stories and data) which he credited me with, I was surprised to see them on his website, very nice guy as well (Dean is).

Best, Pete.
Quite possibly. I was never really a Marshally-type guy. I might have like d the Liverpool too. The point of my rambling essay was this- (I forgot to make a point)
Had I been able to actually play an amp at Kens shop back, then, order one, and have Ken tune it for me, I probably would still own it. Over the years it would doubtless have become very special to me, as other things have that I have owned a long time, and become attached too.
As an added bonus, if an $1800 purchase had turned into a $20,000+ 'investment" I'd no doubt be thrilled, proud and vocal about its attributes.
As it stands, the few "Wrecks I have played were interesting and distinctive, but not really 'my' thing anyway. No regrets beyond the lost investment value I never had to begin with.

[riverastoasters]

As an added bonus, if an $1800 purchase had turned into a $20,000+ 'investment" I'd no doubt be thrilled, proud and vocal about its attributes.

Not really if you are interested in the thing itself. It's a drag to have something get really expensive - you have to insure it, or else face not being able to replace it if there is a fire or flood.

The only people who benefit from the high prices of an amp are people who are thinking of selling them.

I'd be a lot happier if my Dumble wasn't super expensive now. I have plenty of other amps which are fabulous without the expensive part, and my experience is that's better than fabulous WITH the expensive part.

[davess23]

This is always the deal...the never-ending debate about whether the rare or iconic stuff is "worth it."

Never played a Trainwreck, but like most of us, I've played the guitar equivalents, like the $20K+ Traugott acoustics, a few 1930's Martin OM's and dreads (about $40-50K at the time), and a couple "not for sale at any price" late '50's Lesters.

I can't lie that intrinsically these were worth "X" times as much as other good guitars, at least not to me, but they were very cool. And I can appreciate that somebody who's always wanted a pre-war Martin or an old Les Paul or a fine guitar by a highly regarded low-output custom builder might think so, and cheerfully pay the price. There's a certain "there are only a few of these in the whole world" vibe that can make the owner of such a guitar feel pretty damn fortunate.

Either you "get it" about having a cult object or you don't. There's no right or wrong to it, and there's no objective way to prove that the high prices that inevitably attach to cult objects are justified by their intrinsic value. But I can tell you that there's no way that those who love them will ever accept that a clone or something else, no matter how good, is an acceptable substitute.

[Frankenstrat2]

Dave- I agree, and Riveratoasters, I understand.
As soon as the 'W' word- 'worth' enters a conversation confusion reigns.
I've defined it before in other conversations-
'worth' is a poor word to describe what is actually 'fair market value' which is defined by the IRS and the Courts as:
"the price achieved between a willing seller and a willing buyer"
Nothing more and nothing less. Therefore a 'Wreck that sells for $28,000 or a Burst that brings $500k is 'worth' it, once the money changes hands.
It is a definitive and unchanging fact.
Opinions to the contrary are legally irrelevent unless someone has committed fraud or collusion.

[pureoldsound]

Well for one that does not own one (like me) it will not be worth 20K or 30K...Now if I had one the it will be worth 20K or 30K...Ironic isn’t it....Now, if I buy one just as an investment, I don't think I could sleep at night knowing that I just spent 20K on a TOY.....so I recur to the clones, no choice....Now if Ken decides to make more express at reasonable prices (which won't be since used ones are going for 20K) then I'll get one straight from him....

[Frankenstrat2]

See- you just used the word 'worth' twice in your post.....:crazy Its hard to get away from the 'W' word.
Look- its a supply and demand thing.
I'm thinking about Matchless as an example.
When Matchless went out of business, the prices started to climb, and it began to start to achieve 'legendary' status in a very short time. When they revived the company, (and did so with totally equivalent quality and kept the original designs) the 'collectible' value disappeared.
At this point a Sampson-era DC-30 does not fetch an appreciable premium over a second-hand post-Sampson one. However- if the company had never been revived, I think that particular brand would have achieved collectible status. The rare models that are no longer made are somewhat in that league (ie. John Jorgenson model)
What I cannot understand (and never will) is why builders like Ken Fischer and Alex Dumble have not been motivated or able to pursue the high value their branding and association could bring if a product line was properly designed, manufactured and directly marketed under their supervision. I understand that Ken has serious health issues, and I am well aware of his prior affiliation with Gerald Weber, and his current one with Hogy, but still....
There ARE ways to turn out a great product at an affordable price to a demanding market, and being the designer, and licensee does NOT require that anyone sit at a bench soldering resistors all day.
:NUTS

[plexi67]

"""I used every original part (right down to the flea clips and perfboard). The amp cost about $600.00 in parts including the Cherry cabinet."""

I doubt many could build the amp for that price. A more realistic price for that amp in correct parts, would be around 800.00 to 1000.00 and up.
All depending on the type parts used,trannys, tubes,if you buy a cab or build one yourself.. this is again,just the parts. That doesn't include your time.

[pureoldsound]

"""I used every original part (right down to the flea clips and perfboard). The amp cost about $600.00 in parts including the Cherry cabinet."""

I doubt many could build the amp for that price. A more realistic price for that amp in correct parts, would be around 800.00 to 1000.00 and up.
All depending on the type parts used,trannys, tubes,if you buy a cab or build one yourself.. this is again,just the parts. That doesn't include your time.

Hey Richie, you are right about time, plus add to that if the amp includes NOS tubes (which are not cheap)....:drool That will bring close to 1.1K or 1.2K.....

[wsaraceni]

Johnspeck................Great Post!:cool:

Something doesn't add up to me though. If Komet sells $4000.00 amps and Ken gets a cut, how come everyone says Ken is destitute? Is his cut too small? Are there not enough Komet amps being sold for Ken to get by? Should Ken hook up with a more lucrative deal with another company?:D

Far be it for me to point out the obvious but, Ken has not lost one dime on Trainwreck Clones (Express, Liverpool, and Rocket) since he doesn't build them anymore!!! So let's end that line of bull from people who come on the forum and one...either own one and like to thumb their noses at us serfs that don't or two...Are trying to keep the soap opera up to raise the value of their TW's to bolster their portfolio.

This leaves us with Ken's current financial endeavor with Komet. If he is not making enough on their deal I suggest he find a new company to do business with. No accusations here but, when one half of a partnership tells everybody that their partner in business is starving, it doesn't make the business look...shall we say, stable.;) I think that a KF designed amp for $2000.00 would sell like hotcakes. The market will not support endless sales of $4000.00 amp but, even a kid with a credit card will buy a 2K tone monster. Since I know how much it costs to build a Komet 60,;) I think I know what I'm talking about.

Allynmey


i was wondering. About how many hours did you spend building the komet 60 clone? and how many hours would it take to make another. just trying to understand the pricing. Its one thing to but parts for 500 bucks, even 1000 bucks, but then if it still takes 10 hours at 50 bucks an hour (which i consider low) you are already talking 1500, figure the dealer marks it up you are talking over 2000 and you havent even taken into account a ton of other variables.

[Frankenstrat2]

.... just trying to understand the pricing. Its one thing to but parts for 500 bucks, even 1000 bucks, but then if it still takes 10 hours at 50 bucks an hour (which i consider low) you are already talking 1500, figure the dealer marks it up you are talking over 2000 and you havent even taken into account a ton of other variables.
Which is exactly why high quality boutique amps generally range between $1500-$3000 direct from the builder, and those that use a dealer network even more, while others manage to keep mystique high and availablility low and can somehow command $5000-$10,000. per unit. foramps that have essentially the same cost in parts, and perhaps a bit more time in tuning.

FWIW, I do not support amps priced in excess of $5000 unless they have proven collectible value. Otherwise, to me, its hype. The Mad Professor is the only current production amp I have played where the product matched the price tag, and most of their asking price is the result of our weak dollar rather than their aggressive pricing structure.
To be clear, I am not saying any amp is not 'worth the money', I am questioning the wisdom of the expenditure versus other competing products available for considerably less.
Unless, of course, money is no object.....
In which case, gimme the Dumble, an Express, a 59 burst, and a 57 strat, too.

[hamrhed1]

Which is exactly why high quality boutique amps generally range between $1500-$3000 direct from the builder, and those that use a dealer network even more, while others manage to keep mystique high and availablility low and can somehow command $5000-$10,000. per unit. foramps that have essentially the same cost in parts, and perhaps a bit more time in tuning.

FWIW, I do not support amps priced in excess of $5000 unless they have proven collectible value. Otherwise, to me, its hype. The Mad Professor is the only current production amp I have played where the product matched the price tag, and most of their asking price is the result of our weak dollar rather than their aggressive pricing structure.
To be clear, I am not saying any amp is not 'worth the money', I am questioning the wisdom of the expenditure versus other competing products available for considerably less.
Unless, of course, money is no object.....
In which case, gimme the Dumble, an Express, a 59 burst, and a 57 strat, too.

Agreed, to me, any money above 3-4K is 'mojo money'.
I'll take my identical circuit...hold the mojo please.

The guys who successfully market the 10K amps must be saturated
with orders for their capacity so the only way to make more
money is to charge more, not make more units. There can't
be that many guys lining up to pay 10K+ for an amp. What they
lack in penetration, they make up in margin (of course, somebody
is gettin penetrated :AOK (IMO)). Good for them.

[bluesmain]

man everyday I realize I know less and less...

[pureoldsound]

10 hrs of labor ($50) that’s $500, $500-1000 on parts...One builder that does not need to give anything to another person for his/her input...I guess it will be in the $1500 ball park.....Now because you need to profit from your sell obviously, you need to increase the sell price, give a nice cut to the brain of the design...$500, 6, 7 for each amp sold.....It looks like we are in the 3K territory.......Either cut the brain or take smaller cut. But then again if you cut the brain there will be no company.....

From the standpoint of a person who has actually cloned a very expensive, high regarded, production amp,....with labor $1500 seems like the price to make the amp…were does the extra 4K went to….. Yeah, yeah, yeah I know….employees (a pair), water, electricity, rent, “ADVERTISMENT” …….There are a bunch of great boutique builders out there using the best components in their amps that are way below the 3K margin. But the big difference is they don’t have to give $$$ to anyone to maintain their business or use a name…..

[Gordon]

I won't get into the discussion of what amps are worth and whether builders are charging the right amount or too much. But I do want to comment specifically about trainwreck amps.

The true beauty of the design is it's simplicity. Being simple, it doesn't have many parts inside and people say to themselves "why can't I make one of these for myself". One of the characteristics of such a simple design is that the amps are incredibly transparent and you can hear the effect of each and every component inside.

So here's where the falsity comes in. Different parts sound different. Take carbon film resistors for instance. If you clone a 'wreck, do you know exactly what kind of carbon film resistor that KF used? They all look the same. What about silver mica caps, pots, coupling caps etc? Each part colors the tone in it's own way. You can see that the "exact circuit" and "exact part" arguments begin to fall apart.

Now is that to say that you can't make a great sounding amp, one that's every bit as good as the real thing. Of course not. In fact you can make an amp that's perfect for you. But, how many us have the years of experience, ears and talent that KF does. He's spent his whole life working with this stuff and each single component is chosen based on that experience and talent.

My point is this. The prices that we see now for these amps are based not only on the limited supply and high demand, but also on the fact that the builder was able to incorporate his experiance and talent into that piece of gear. That's why each one is different, to optimize it and really get it to work right given that exact set of transformers etc. How many cloners can do that?

We're all willing to pay big money to see a talented musician play or a talented athelete perform. After all, they can do what they do much better than the rest of us. Why not be willing to pay some bucks to own an amp made by a talented builder, especially if you think that he can do it better than the rest of the builders out there and after comparision you think that it sounds better?

[Frankenstrat2]

We're all willing to pay big money to see a talented musician play or a talented athelete perform. After all, they can do what they do much better than the rest of us. Why not be willing to pay some bucks to own an amp made by a talented builder, especially if you think that he can do it better than the rest of the builders out there and after comparision you think that it sounds better?
Ken isn't building amps- just consulting and lending designs. Don't know what Dumble is doing, I heard he is building amps still, for high prices. Two Rock is knocking at the door of $10,000 for their top of the line, Fuchs Triple Drive is over $4,000, Hi-end Bogners, etc. in that range also.
The air gets thin up there. So do the buyers. The heart of the market is under $2,000.

[pureoldsound]

So here's where the falsity comes in. Different parts sound different. Take carbon film resistors for instance. If you clone a 'wreck, do you know exactly what kind of carbon film resistor that KF used? They all look the same. What about silver mica caps, pots, coupling caps etc? Each part colors the tone in it's own way. You can see that the "exact circuit" and "exact part" arguments begin to fall apart.


But that’s the thing they did find out what exact components Ken used on the TW Express. They went inside the amp physically, and even measured values to be accurate….There base of cloning the amp is no longer of a guess, pics or schematics floating on the internet…the Francesca schems are the actual schems of the amp. Now, yes you are right getting the components that Ken used on his amps is the trick part because some of the components are very hard to find (some extinct) since modern parts have replaced some of it. However this has not stopped some of them….There are a FEW people on the TW forum that have actually managed to get the exact same components that Ken used, and when I mean exact I mean exactly the same…They have even the distance of the cables and what type of cables he used….Perfboard, pushing terminals, etc…..

Don’t ask me where to get them I have no idea or how they manage to get it but they did….If I am not mistaken Two Rock got the exact same OT and PT that he used on his amps so I guess it is not impossible…..

[riverastoasters]

but still....
There ARE ways to turn out a great product at an affordable price to a demanding market, and being the designer, and licensee does NOT require that anyone sit at a bench soldering resistors all day.
:NUTS

Yup. But these guys just don't seem interested. You can put Jim Demeter in that bin too.

[plexi67]

"""""So here's where the falsity comes in. Different parts sound different. Take carbon film resistors for instance. If you clone a 'wreck, do you know exactly what kind of carbon film resistor that KF used? They all look the same. What about silver mica caps, pots, coupling caps etc? Each part colors the tone in it's own way. You can see that the "exact circuit" and "exact part" arguments begin to fall apart.

Now is that to say that you can't make a great sounding amp, one that's every bit as good as the real thing. Of course not. In fact you can make an amp that's perfect for you. But, how many us have the years of experience, ears and talent that KF does. He's spent his whole life working with this stuff and each single component is chosen based on that experience and talent.""""""

Just my opinion,but that post is way off. And yes they can tell the exact parts used.
The amps have to sound good to them,or they would probably not build them. It may not be, the be all amp for each persons style music or playing,but for some its a perfect amp.

[allynmey]

Again, this is a great thread. Good therapy for those who feel they have to champion "The Cause":)
Now this is one mans opinion, so don't get excited now. Komet has the right to charge whatever they want! They make a well made amp and only they know their costs. TW owners have the right to charge whatever they want when they sell. Anybody on this forum has the ability to act as pompous as they want!:AOK There is no law or moral reason for me not to build a clone for my own enjoyment! I can and will do as I please! So can you! I have never sold a TW or Komet clone I've built. When I said I know how much it cost to build, I meant exactly that....I paid for the parts to do MY hobby! I'm surprised Hogy doesn't get crap from some of the "Champions of Humanity" here about using beautiful woods on his cabinets with the rain forest dying and all!:jo The bad news for the snobs is...the secrets out. TW's are just a circuit and not a living life force. I took the francesca pictures with HeeBGB (on this forum) and measured the circuit top to bottom. The circuit matched exactly to three other know schematics we had. They are pretty much all the same. Some sound better than others. My clone and others I've heard sound better than Francesca. What does that mean?...NOTHING! With respects to the Komet build I did, i purposely left out how much it cost to build due to the scamps on this forum getting up in arms. I don't want to hurt Hogy and Mikes business by having customers second guess them. If Hogy could get 10K for an amp then god bless him. I regularly post on building forums my ideas and circuits. I don't care if someone uses them and makes a great amp or changes something and has a go at selling them. I didn't invent nothing! I can't complain when someone borrows my idea and calls it their own because it wasn't mine to begin with. That's what the non-technical people here commenting don't understand. If they new anything about electronics and tube circuitry they would laugh at their own silly comments about who is stealing who's ideas. :NUTS
I would ask any reasonably sucessful amp builders on this forum that don't think they invented the tube themselves to chime in on that last point.

Build your amps, play your guitars, and enjoy yourselves....damn!!!!:jo

Allynmey

[martins3325]

Hi UR12. Glad to see you joined the board. Though joined in on a tempestuous thread. UR12 and Allynemy are both senior member of the TW forum and nice, courteous, helpful guys. I understand both sides of the cloning issue..to be more specific: cloning amps to sell while the manufacturer still is in business! I can definitely see some ethical issues with that. But I dont know why Wrecks stir up so many emotions on this..these guys build for personal pleasure, are VERY good at it, and DONT sell what they build. Ken doesnt make Wrecks any more, has publicly stated he doesnt mind people building one for personal use, and in fact has helped some of the guys over at the TW forum. I just dont get it...how'd this go from a "did you ever played a real wreck" POLL to a cloning ethics debate??!! And why do people attack the hobbiest builders for copying a great long extinct amp? How is it that people dont have a problem with the Clarks, Roccafortes, and Germinos? Seems thick with irony to me. How many people would have a problem with a guy building a Strat replica for himself and he spec'd out a great vintage one so as to get it as right as possible? I dunno..this whole thread should just be deleted.

[90wreck]

No, I'm just trying to imply that just because someone plays drums, it doesn't have anything to do with my experience building amps. I also like to restore VWs but that has nothing to do with building amps either. So what is it you are actually trying to get at?
Dude...This thread was going so well.
Don't dig in to deep on a Trainwreck thread with just 3 posts and you will survive much longer..

BTW I own ALOT of vintage drums...Let me derail you and offer you a circa 57 Slingerland Buddy Rich Super Classic kit in the rare Aqua Turqoise,
22 13 16 in nickel!!
Pm me.
I also own an original Trainwreck Express as well...So don't smack me down too hard.:)
"Talk To Ya later",
Fee WB
EDIT: Who invited you here?

Hi UR12. Glad to see you joined the board. Though joined in on a tempestuous thread. UR12 and Allynemy are both senior member of the TW forum and nice, courteous, helpful guys. I understand both sides of the cloning issue..to be more specific: cloning amps to sell while the manufacturer still is in business! I can definitely see some ethical issues with that. But I dont know why Wrecks stir up so many emotions on this..these guys build for personal pleasure, are VERY good at it, and DONT sell what they build. Ken doesnt make Wrecks any more, has publicly stated he doesnt mind people building one for personal use, and in fact has helped some of the guys over at the TW forum. I just dont get it...how'd this go from a "did you ever played a real wreck" POLL to a cloning ethics debate??!! And why do people attack the hobbiest builders for copying a great long extinct amp? How is it that people dont have a problem with the Clarks, Roccafortes, and Germinos? Seems thick with irony to me. How many people would have a problem with a guy building a Strat replica for himself and he spec'd out a great vintage one so as to get it as right as possible? I dunno..this whole thread should just be deleted.

Never mind.
Oh yeah...Don't forget about them there drums.

[martins3325]

wheres the ass kissing smiley when you need it?
Im ass kissing? Because I point out that people like yourself have this skewed sense of self righteousness about other people copying for personal pleasure a product not produced for 20years? Its ass kissing to point out how retarded that is? Your response proves how irrational your fervor is on the topic...and exactly why I think the thread should be deleted..there is no value in it.

[90wreck]

Beck...
Winged T or I formation?

[martins3325]

why would you respond to a post that you think should be deleted?

at best ive made you think and be at best angry which is a good thing
Your right ..i wont post to this thread again. Im not angry..more bewildered why people have such a nazi attitude about a defunct product. You did make me think though..think your childish. Later

[BJF]

Hi,

It isn't the circuit is it? It would rather be the name perhaps?

For measure I once was brought two blonde bassmen: one squealed and made noises, the next one sqealed but made less noise
Taking a look at the schematics it was evident that two versions were brought about to combat a problem on the Bass channel..........

To make these amp play, without neither squeling nor making excess noise a third version I made by rerouting five wires and somethingelse- the sound was just the same though and that was also the purpose. Still I won't get an A+ in vintage restoration.

I think those amps are still Fenders- I'd be much surprised if they sounded like an Express or shall we say vice verse

Now, I have not had the pleasure of plugging into a Trainwreck, which of course would be fun. Yes well someday I might be able to say I have.However I wouldn't say I'd have the same interest for a bassman, or Marshall while there certainly are nice specimens of those, only just a few of them have this 'thing',that you can almost see as a blue aura
I have heard some recordings with Trainwrecks, while not with geetarpicker though I have heard him play another amp and much enjoyed listening to that, hat's off to you sir geetarpicker.

Ok so what is this thing? Technically it would be balance of a couple of parameters.....


With Trainwrecks you'd expect something just because Ken worked on it and that people pay for to this day and I gather he's building an amp at the moment .
If you're an amptechnician you'd know what to expect, but I'm sorry this tuning is not in the textbooks, nor would you find it in any Western Electronic manual or publication from tubemanufacturers.
I'll pull the Forrest White card......
Oh wait if you know crystal recievers you'd go a long way ;)

And now for something completely diffferent:
I did have a long talk with Ken about building an amp: it'd use 5M Ohm pots to give 20 times the tone and would by far exceed the capabilities of a Carvin amp that uses 1M Ohm pots and they claim it has 4 times the tonecontrol....


If it was just the circuit, you'd see White Frock 30 amps and people bowing to an unknown technician at Western Electric.........but it isn't that is it?

What I possibly question is do you need recognized name to to build a fine sounding amp?
I doubt it, but things like ' worth it 'and 'value' have their own voices one might presume.

Yes I know sometimes when you hear a guitar sound it sends shivers down the backbone, but I think it's a sound not a name.

On the otherhand unobtainable things are fascinating, and some would like to kick the king of the hill, while really the world is big enough so who cares where the kings reside or what they charge for their work or if they even have to lift a finger or what their children command?

You may not have to play guitar to build a fine amp and I know this is true as I have played the Tubewonder, but I do believe that when you play guitar you enjoy the nuances of sound.
After all guitar amps are made for guitarists and guitarists tuned most amps that were built by nonguitarist technician's and sound preferences change through decades quite unseen by inventors of basic amplifier circuits while maybe inherited by musicians and enjoyers of music

As I said I have not played a Trainwreck, but would someday like to, because I do enjoy good sounds in any form it comes and rare is a feather in the hat. I will survive though without doing that if I have to and have no desire to own further amps

Think what you want, but to me a Trainwreck is one amp built by Trainwreck all other amplifiers are somethingelse.

Yes, I did play a Komet 60 and it was so much fun - great amp!

Perhaps I don't get it: "Look at my amp, it's a TRAINWRECK............ clone"

I'd have a lot more interest for a White Frock 30- if it captures the mighty sound of Rock 'n' Roll.

'What It Is' Steven Bruton

BJ
Affiliations:
BJF Electronics
www.bjfelectronics.com (http://www.bjfelectronics.com)
www.mpamp.com (http://www.mpamp.com)

[Jimetti]

Who has played a real Trainwreck? What did you think?

What is a "real Trainwreck"?

You mean the good one?

Any one?

They all sound different, right?

[pureoldsound]

It would appear that I came in with my first post on a thread that needs to be deleted. I am in bewilderment as to what it was I said that sparked all this. I think I will just keep the name of the member who invited me to myself to save him the embarassment.

Glad to see you on the board UR12.......If it was me no embarrassment what so ever.....I think you are a very knowledgeable person when it comes to amps, being a guitar player or not. I think you know your stuff to well and have no doubt of your building capabilities....Plus you got your brother (a guitar player) to test and give insights for what needs to be tweaked.....

I've hear clips of your amps and they all sound killer..So the guitar player argument is a moot one.....

[pureoldsound]

The problem I see with SOME owners of an amp made by KF against those who have cloned his amps (I won’t get into what is a real wreck and what is not) is that it has made them uncomfortable that in a way they no longer have something that is unattainable and “unique” (if that is the word to use) Since the unveiling of the Francesca, it has opened a door for those who can not afford to get an exact replica of a KF amp to BUILD and enjoy!!!!!! All that mojo jumbo is out!!!!


Anther point is the “I yet to hear a clone that sounds as good as a real TW” comment……I’ll love to hear an A/B blind test with a real clone (not a based design) with a KF amp.

BTW and this is not an excused by no means, but some have tried either amps that are based on the design or clones, and their arguments is they sound different….What about the age factor of an amp….It has been discussed over and over about how good a 1968 Marshall plexi sounds vs a new Marshalll? Would a 20 yrs old PT and OT that has settled in long enough will be a match to a brand new PT and OT? Could that be the difference? Would that be fair play?

[57special]

Again, this is a great thread. Good therapy for those who feel they have to champion "The Cause":)
Now this is one mans opinion, so don't get excited now. Komet has the right to charge whatever they want! They make a well made amp and only they know their costs. TW owners have the right to charge whatever they want when they sell. Anybody on this forum has the ability to act as pompous as they want!:AOK There is no law or moral reason for me not to build a clone for my own enjoyment! I can and will do as I please! So can you! I have never sold a TW or Komet clone I've built. When I said I know how much it cost to build, I meant exactly that....I paid for the parts to do MY hobby! I'm surprised Hogy doesn't get crap from some of the "Champions of Humanity" here about using beautiful woods on his cabinets with the rain forest dying and all!:jo The bad news for the snobs is...the secrets out. TW's are just a circuit and not a living life force. I took the francesca pictures with HeeBGB (on this forum) and measured the circuit top to bottom. The circuit matched exactly to three other know schematics we had. They are pretty much all the same. Some sound better than others. My clone and others I've heard sound better than Francesca. What does that mean?...NOTHING! With respects to the Komet build I did, i purposely left out how much it cost to build due to the scamps on this forum getting up in arms. I don't want to hurt Hogy and Mikes business by having customers second guess them. If Hogy could get 10K for an amp then god bless him. I regularly post on building forums my ideas and circuits. I don't care if someone uses them and makes a great amp or changes something and has a go at selling them. I didn't invent nothing! I can't complain when someone borrows my idea and calls it their own because it wasn't mine to begin with. That's what the non-technical people here commenting don't understand. If they new anything about electronics and tube circuitry they would laugh at their own silly comments about who is stealing who's ideas. :NUTS
I would ask any reasonably sucessful amp builders on this forum that don't think they invented the tube themselves to chime in on that last point.

Build your amps, play your guitars, and enjoy yourselves....damn!!!!:jo

Allynmey

Why not make your point w/o throwing around loaded words like 'snobs"? Who are you referring to when you make that reference? Anyone who owns a TW? Someone who doesn't agree with you?
It's really easy to destroy a good discussion, and ultimately a Forum, by ignoring civility.

[Frankenstrat2]

Bjorn my friend, as usual you make such good sense and you are always humble and calm. You set such a good example.
I think back to the Chicago ToneFest where you sat elbow to elbow with various amp builders and pedal makers and the spirit was collegiate and friendly, sharing, rather than competitive nasty one-upsmanship.
I'm been on this Forum a long time, and have expressed my opinions numerous times regarding the rancorous nonsense that springs up here, particularly when it involves Trainwrecks and Dumble amps, their admirers and detractors.
Its a shame that it is the one topic genre that can't be discussed here, on a discussion forum dedicated to Gear. Since politics and religion are topics that are forbidden here, I would draw the conclusion that these topics are approached with religious and political fervor by those that have something to lose or something to gain in their various opinions.
Personally I have no vested interest in any of this except to gain and share knowledge.
It is truly a bigger shame that needlessly sharp tongues with dull sensibilities will stand in the way of sharp minds who are willing to share knowledge rather than simply expell hot air.

[grego7]

That loud clicking sound you hear is all of the folks who simply answered a poll question, and are now hitting the "unsubscribe" function.

[Frankenstrat2]

That loud clicking sound you hear is all of the folks who simply answered a poll question, and are now hitting the "unsubscribe" function.
Yup. Its a shame isn't it? There were some new members that might have actually had something to contribute here......
This is a DISCUSSION board, right?
:puh

[r9player]

Haha what a welcome ..
Hey UR12 welcome man, looks like you know a lot about Wrecks very cool.
I'm the beneficiary of people like you who figured and tinkered and have produced some very good sounding Wreck clones, love mine for what it is and what it sounds like, and my little cosmetic tweak is almost done (I'll post that elsewhere)

[scottcw]

Yup. Its a shame isn't it? There were some new members that might have actually had something to contribute here......
This is a DISCUSSION board, right?
:puh

Instead a new member gets derided for not playing guitar. Let's see, who else did not play guitar... oh, yeah - Leo Fender and Jim Marshall. Guess their contributions should not count.

[lhallam]

I played through Mook's Wreck and dug it.

I like the touch sensitivity and the gtr volume control ability to go from clean to dirty with both tones sounding great.

[Frankenstrat2]

i was out of line and am apologizing for it again

i welcome new blood

perhaps its me who should take a break

sorry guys

Brewbeck
Its cool man. I've lost it here too, at times. And apologized for it.
I hate to see some new faces come over here that actually have some worthwhile info to share, while some of us old timers complain about the influx of newbies coming in from HC dragging down the Board with questions we have all answered many times or posting troll threads designed to get us pissed off.
Discussing clones and amp designs based on previous models is the one topic here that usually gets a thread nuked, and I think its a shame, because I'm always interested in the subject.
Its cool that some knowledgable hobbyist- builders have found there way over here, and I for one welcome their input and participation.
I hope they stick around despite the rocky start. I thought their point of view brought some fresh insight into a tired old topic, especially with the technical know-how to support what some of us guitar-slingers have suspected for a long time.
I do think its easy to confuse mojo with know-how.

[allynmey]

Sorry guys if you took offense at the word snob. The word does not describe a TW owner as you stated. It merely described people who thing something is better than something else without the knowledge of what they are talking about. UR12 is a great builder. I'll put his brother Richies guitar skills against anyone here. If you know Richie, you will agree.:dude

I originally posted because people were making inaccurate, veiled statements about me an a clone I built for myself. Just wanted to set the record straight. Hope everyone here has a toneful day!:)

Allynmey

[RichSZ]

Glad to see you on the board UR12.......If it was me no embarrassment what so ever.....I think you are a very knowledgeable person when it comes to amps, being a guitar player or not. I think you know your stuff to well and have no doubt of your building capabilities....Plus you got your brother (a guitar player) to test and give insights for what needs to be tweaked.....

I've hear clips of your amps and they all sound killer..So the guitar player argument is a moot one.....

Hey UR12, I also would like to say welcome and hope this crap doesn't turn you away from this forum.

-Rich

[trisonic]

Brewbeck
Its cool man. I've lost it here too, at times. And apologized for it.
I hope they stick around despite the rocky start. I thought their point of view brought some fresh insight into a tired old topic, especially with the technical know-how to support what some of us guitar-slingers have suspected for a long time.
I do think its easy to confuse mojo with know-how.

I agree with you FS2.

But then it goes slightly sour when someone writes: I'll put his brother's guitars' skill against anyone here

a. He doesn't know who is here
b. Guitar playing still ain't a competitive sport last time I checked!

Bit of give and take from all sides is appreciated.

Best, Pete.

[matte]

This is a DISCUSSION board, right?
:puhthe value of any opinion which is not backed by substantial personal experience is of little merit in any discussion.

[BJF]

Hi

You know Barry the Chicago show was one very special show and something I'll never forgett and it was all held in good spirit everybody having fun and what was maybe at first tension resolved in to good comraderie faster than soon such great people there

Cheers my dear friend

I'd also like to say welcome to UR12 and add a few views to your post below

Originally posted by UR12

"Hello

This is my first post. Looks like a nice place you guys have here! I have read with interest the last few threads regarding the attack of the clones."

This is the clones attacking?

"I have been repairing, moding and building amps for about 34 years now. I have built 3 Wreck clones in the last year mainly to dissect them and since I have never seen or heard a real Wreck in person, I wanted to see what they sounded like. Personally I like designing my own circuits instead of cloning someone else’s. After two Expresses and a Liverpool, I have yet to figure out a few things, mostly the stuff that is in Ken’s head. "

What's in your head?You want to know what's in Ken's head? What for???
Since you have a brother that can be your signal generator ask him to play and tweak a few things and see what that results in.......
It's going a long way around things to figure out what another designer might have thought, when you can get direct feedback and feedback is really the thing........just go with the flow

"You can find the exact components and build an exact duplicate of the circuit and recreate the layout right down to the alternating of the heater wires with the same number of turns. You can measure every resistor and cap in the circuit to make sure the amp is exactly like the real thing. Your biggest tolerances are in the power supply caps and trannys being about +/-20%."

Regarding the trannies it depends on what trannies you use and it's seldom the part but how you use it

"DC voltages obtained from the power tranny, IMO, aren’t too critical as long as you can get B+ in the 380 – 400v range."

That's an OK range while you really set the workingpoints of the tubes from what your HT is
Ah, OK 380 to 400V then we can see where that is leading.
Check your workingpoints and you'll see

"It would appear that the mystique is in what Ken did to mod or tweek each amp. I have read that Ken “Tweeked every amp to his or the player’s liking so what exactly is he tweeking?."

Yes, it's interesting to see how different players react to sound and what it suggests to them

"The Kelly 90 A1b schematic was accurate and was taken from an amp that matched the exact parts that was in Franchesca. It would appear that Ken used the same parts/values in both amps. So if he built all his amps with the same components what did he change when he tweeked an amp?"

What parts did you not measure? also voltage is always the key...

"Franchesca and Ginger were both built in the early to mid 80s. Though different styles of amps, their preamp circuit, components and values are the same up to the PI, with only 3 exceptions. 1) The .002 cap in Ginger was made up of a OD PVC .001 in parallel with another ceramic .001 to give you an equivalent value .002 like in Franchesca. I am assuming this is used to tweek or taylor the sound through this part of the circuit. "

Well,in an amp like this small value difference may make a difference on sound and if you now take a look where this cap sits you also have the key to what it does.
Why do you think lead dress is quoted as important? Take a look at the impedance levels and what ghost components will bring........artificial gain- so how do you control that?

"2) He used a 68k resistor in Ginger instead of the 150k he put in Franchesca. This resistor sets the gain of the last gain stage. "

This changes not only gain but also what overtones are produced- though you need to view the whole dynamic load as that is what counts in determining the dynamic working point

"Since the Liverpool uses EL84s instead of the El34 in the Express, Ken has changed resistor values in the PI. I assume this is different because of the amount of signal is different needed to drive an EL84 vs an EL34."

Grid space is different, but that's not the whole story

"So it may be that the lowering of the gain stage in the Liverpool is more in line with the amount of signal needed to drive the EL84s instead of the EL34s."

Well you also get a different overtone spectrum

" 3) He used a series resistor on the front end of the first tube from the input jack (47k I believe but don’t quote me on that). I believe this resistor was their to cut down on radio interference more than anything"

No,

"but it could be that this was an attempt to try and match a particular guitar like a LP or Strat to the voice the amp. "

Not that either

"I have found no ill effect to omitting this part like in Franchesca. Other than that their are no differences in the preamp circuits."

Then your below the point of balance

"Personally, I don’t play guitar so I can’t say I have ever played a real Express. I do love the sounds of these amps in the hands of a good guitarist though."

Well if you know electronics it's a good excuse to build an amp- oh and you know what, a drummer is always welcome especially for the after hours jam

"Somewhere out there in the world there lives the worst and best sounding TWs and I am sure there are a few clones that falls somewhere in between."

Yes I am sure you'd like to believe that. Personally I think I'd like an Express most outof his models and I can imagine how good I would feel after I have played one ;)
I could say then to him 'I've played one of your amps and it was fun' - that's a nice thing to say

"I think there is a lot of myth and mystique about these amps or the builder that I find just too hard to believe."

What might that be? I can tell you Ken's a rather funny guy, but yes unobtainable things create myths especially over time.

Do you want to catch the sound that makes people listen and play? Or is it just the holyness of certain amplifiers - what makes them tick that is interesting?

Oh please understand that what I said here is purely based on what you told me and basic amplifier theory and my personal experience applied. Ken also happens to be a friend of mine so

*I think I'd better dance now'

BJ

[Frankenstrat2]

Bjorn's a heck of a good dancer too.....:AOK

[UR12]

I'd also like to say welcome to UR12 and add a few views to your post below

Originally posted by UR12

This is the clones attacking?

Thanks for the Welcome! Actually this was my attempt at humor refering to Starwars. Sorry if you didn't get the connection.

What's in your head?You want to know what's in Ken's head? What for??? Since you have a brother that can be your signal generator ask him to play and tweak a few things and see what that results in.......
It's going a long way around things to figure out what another designer might have thought, when you can get direct feedback and feedback is really the thing........just go with the flow

Mainly cobwebs most of the time. My "signal generator" and I do that on a regular basis on all of the amps I build. I also send them out to other guitar players to get their comments and suggestions. I would think that any designer starts out with an idea in his head, puts it on paper taking into account the operating points of the tubes and other components and then builds a prototype. In my experience the prototype is never the finished product and needs a little to a lot of tweeking before you get it where you want it. Sometimes it's back to the drawing board. So when I look at someone elses designs I have to wonder what he was thinking when he took it from his head to the paper. In the process you might just learn something which is a good thing in my book.


Regarding the trannies it depends on what trannies you use and it's seldom the part but how you use it

I have only used a few power trannys, Mainly the ones from toneslut which are purported to be a very close match to what Ken used. It's interesting that the Express uses such a low B+ and the amp can take EL34 or 6V6s. Personally I like to run El34s in the 460 - 480 volt range but this would make running 6V6s out of the question. It's also interesting to note that the Komet is running voltages in this range.

That's an OK range while you really set the workingpoints of the tubes from what your HT is
Ah, OK 380 to 400V then we can see where that is leading.
Check your workingpoints and you'll see

This range is determined by the tolerances of the PT. If you have 100 trannys they will all be a little different. One may give you 395, the next 387 so you have to work with what you get and either hope your tube characteristics match the published specs or put them on a curve tracer and get the exact working points for that tube( a little extreme). Another option would be to play with the working points using bias/loads which is what I believe most people do. I doubt very seriously that Ken got all his trannys manufactured to exacting tolerances and they all produced exactly the same HT voltages.

As far as the OTs are concerned some amps have been built using a 5200 pri and some using a 6600 pri. I think that some people prefer one over the other depending on which one they think sounds better to them. Of course the imp changes with different values of HT as I'm sure you are aware.

Yes, it's interesting to see how different players react to sound and what it suggests to them

Yea, I agree. People talk about a mediocre player on a great amp and a great player on a mediocre amp. It's nice to see a player who can actually get the sounds out of his amp and guitar that he has in his head.

What parts did you not measure? also voltage is always the key...

I didn't measure the bias pot and yes I agree voltage is the starting point for everything.

Well,in an amp like this small value difference may make a difference on sound and if you now take a look where this cap sits you also have the key to what it does.
Why do you think lead dress is quoted as important? Take a look at the impedance levels and what ghost components will bring........artificial gain- so how do you control that?

Just like you said, by using good lead dress. On the clones I built I used the exact layout that Ken used right down to alternating the heater wiring and counting the turns. It may or may not make a difference but I wanted it to be as close to the original as possible

"2) He used a 68k resistor in Ginger instead of the 150k he put in Franchesca. This resistor sets the gain of the last gain stage. "

This changes not only gain but also what overtones are produced- though you need to view the whole dynamic load as that is what counts in determining the dynamic working point.

That is very true the cap and resistor also forms a high pass 6db/oct filter. By lowering the value of the resistor you reduce the gain but you also raise the corner freq of the filter. If we just use the values of the resistor and cap and calculate the freq we get about 530hz for the 150k/.002uf combination and 1170hz for the 68k/.022. I realize there is more to it than that.



"I have found no ill effect to omitting this part like in Franchesca. Other than that their are no differences in the preamp circuits."

Then your below the point of balance

Then I guess the Express is below the point of balance and the Liverpool is not. Can you please explain your comment?



"I think there is a lot of myth and mystique about these amps or the builder that I find just too hard to believe."

What might that be? I can tell you Ken's a rather funny guy, but yes unobtainable things create myths especially over time.

Do you want to catch the sound that makes people listen and play? Or is it just the holyness of certain amplifiers - what makes them tick that is interesting?

Oh please understand that what I said here is purely based on what you told me and basic amplifier theory and my personal experience applied. Ken also happens to be a friend of mine so

*I think I'd better dance now'

BJ

I mean no disrespect to Ken. I have never had the pleasure of meeting him, but from what I have heard I am sure he is a great guy. Like all legends I think that things get blown out of proportion and myth replaces truth. As I stated before, I have never seen or heard a TW live. I doubt that I ever will. So this is my feeble attempt to determine what all of the hubbub is about. Sometimes I think that there is more misinformation out there than there is truth. The truth is that the man builds a great amp.

I don't consider myself a TW fanatic. I love old Fenders and Marshalls. My most recent design is an all octal amp. I hope to have it prototyped in the next couple of months. I can guarantee you it won't sound like a TW but then again drummers can't really build amps anyway.

Didn't mean to hijack this thread so you can get back to who has played a real wreck.

[rhinson]

i believe one of the reasons he used a 68k grid load resistor is because el84's are extremely easy to drive---this keeps from driving them to mush. in the amps of this and similiar topography that i've built, i simply use a 47k resistor in series with a 100k pot to give a "drive" control allowing the user to set how much signal they want to drive the 3rd stage. rh

[trisonic]

Bjorn's a heck of a good dancer too.....:AOK

Is he?? Perhaps they should combine "Amp Build-Off" with that Dance show.

I saw you on TV last Sunday. Are you employing a "personal groomer" now? Man, you looked cool in a sharp suit!

Best, Pete.

[GeekMacdaddy]

I agree with you FS2.

But then it goes slightly sour when someone writes: I'll put his brother's guitars' skill against anyone here

a. He doesn't know who is here
b. Guitar playing still ain't a competitive sport last time I checked!

Bit of give and take from all sides is appreciated.

Best, Pete.

You guys have managed to put-off one of the most talented, nicest guys who shares his brilliant insights, and valuable resources, that one could ask for.

Nice job.

And by the way, his brother does play guitar THAT well, all you insecure guitarists.

[Frankenstrat2]

Sigh......:puh

[r9player]

To me .. it looks like UR12 has the patience of a Saint! .. man .. so eh what was this thread about again??

[ericb]

To me .. it looks like UR12 has the patience of a Saint! .. man .. so eh what was this thread about again??

YEP , he definitely does seem to !!! Great quality .. My patience level totally pales in comparison. UR12, stick around start a new thread, and get that 'ignore' list going!!!!

ERIC

[Guitar James]

To me .. it looks like UR12 has the patience of a Saint! .. man .. so eh what was this thread about again??
Wrecked trains I think just like this thread:AOK
UR12 seems very down to earth,.
UR12 I would love to see how your octal design turns out.

[Frankenstrat2]

So- it seems the survey results are in
One in Four respondants have played an actual Wreck, or Three of Four never have.
Can someone calculate how many of the 25% who did play one found it to be a life-altering experience, or is that a new poll?
I expressed my opinion on that score, and since I've played a few, my opinion has to count, right Matte?

Or maybe not......

[hamrhed1]

So- it seems the survey results are in
One in Four respondants have played an actual Wreck, or Three of Four never have.
Can someone calculate how many of the 25% who did play one found it to be a life-altering experience, or is that a new poll?
I expressed my opinion on that score, and since I've played a few, my opinion has to count, right Matte?

Or maybe not......

Just asked that very question in a new poll thread entitled 'mojo shmojo'...

[57special]

To me .. it looks like UR12 has the patience of a Saint! .. man .. so eh what was this thread about again??

Man, don't you listen? It's about who has survived a Trainwreck!

[BJF]

Hi,
Thank you Barry,

Oh, you know Trisonic, I very rarely do ampdemonstrations- I'll go practice my dancing

Greetings UR12

Right, the unexpected power of the darkside;) I'm afraid my humour is a bit dry

Not to totally derail this but what is cobwebbs?
Yes, true you can often see why certain things came about and we learn as we go- only a fool would be content with what he knows as then there would no nothing more to learn- did you read my prior post?

Well, in an amp like this the transformers hold a few keys. This is one thing Ken told me 'they'd never get it right' Oh well,


You like EL 34's at 460-480V, yes well I do too so what changes when you drop voltage about 100V's- you can use 6V6's in either workingpoint but only certain kinds in the higher, but anyway that's not the point, but you get easier distortion, while that can turn to mush if you're not careful and what overtone spectrum you'd get depends on the workingpoint and the dynamic load of the powertubes which in turn depends on the load at the secundary of OT- now you can do various things to stabilize things but let's say you don't but balance the wide open amp and you get a beast to control.
I would be so that you can find Marshalls that sound really good or not so good and that's just the way they are, while with a Trainwreck you have a motorcycle to maintain and all parts must be trim or the amp will not sound as it should.
You can find some Marshalls, Voxes, Fenders et.c that would do something of this sort and they'd be viewed as 'magical' and some of those gave birth to the myth that amps sound their best just prior to their death while it was never intended from the factories. Dealing with such things isn't really feasible for mass production, so you'd only find a few regular amps that happen to deviate, while with a custom amp like this it can be rather intentional

About lead dress: what would an amp look like from an AC point of view at 40KHz?

Well in a highpass filter you must calculate the total resistans- Ro+RL
where Ro is the source impedance, in order to calculate the corner frequency
and just roughly you'd end up at about 440Hz.
Take a look at the Ampeg SVT and you'd get a feeling why this would be important

Originally Posted by UR12

"Yea, I agree. People talk about a mediocre player on a great amp and a great player on a mediocre amp. It's nice to see a player who can actually get the sounds out of his amp and guitar that he has in his head."


Well yes, isn't it?


Originally Posted by UR12
"Then I guess the Express is below the point of balance and the Liverpool is not. Can you please explain your comment?"

I think I have given a few clues to that- artificial gain- check your crystal reciever and it'll come


"I mean no disrespect to Ken. I have never had the pleasure of meeting him, but from what I have heard I am sure he is a great guy. Like all legends I think that things get blown out of proportion and myth replaces truth. As I stated before, I have never seen or heard a TW live. I doubt that I ever will. So this is my feeble attempt to determine what all of the hubbub is about. Sometimes I think that there is more misinformation out there than there is truth. The truth is that the man builds a great amp."

Oh, the truth is always unbelivable. People's expectations is what myths are vowen of

Originally Posted by UR12
"I don't consider myself a TW fanatic. I love old Fenders and Marshalls. My most recent design is an all octal amp. I hope to have it prototyped in the next couple of months. I can guarantee you it won't sound like a TW but then again drummers can't really build amps anyway."

I am sure that will be an interesting amp with octals. It will sound what you make it to sound, and please believe in yourself better. Why would a drummer not build amps?You say you have repaired amps for 34 years and I would see no reason why you would not build your own amps I don't think you have to play guitar to build or understand gear meant for guitarists
The guy that built the first fuzzbox in Sweden is a drummer- ofcourse he will always have to hear that he distorted popmusic of the late 60's- maybe somewhat embarrasing to a jazzdrummer but I think that's a thing you can take with a smile.

Originally Posted by UR12
"Didn't mean to hijack this thread so you can get back to who has played a real wreck."

Me neither, but it happens all the time with threads and sometimes it becomes interesting.



take care and enjoy


BJ

[Guitar James]

Man, don't you listen? It's about who has survived a Trainwreck!
Never been in a real one but I was in a cloned trainwreck where my cloned self was playing a Dumble on the railtrack.

[Frankenstrat2]

Never been in a real one but I was in a cloned trainwreck where my cloned self was playing a Dumble on the railtrack.
But was it at the Crossroads?
And did you meet Jack Scratch?

[Guitar James]

But was it at the Crossroads?
And did you meet Jack Scratch?
I don't think Scratch was there but Robert Johnson was and he was playing through a Komet.

[Frankenstrat2]

I don't think Scratch was there but Robert Johnson was and he was playing through a Komet.
Steve Vai I could believe, but Robert Johnson? nah.

[trisonic]

You guys have managed to put-off one of the most talented, nicest guys who shares his brilliant insights, and valuable resources, that one could ask for.

Nice job.

And by the way, his brother does play guitar THAT well, all you insecure guitarists.

Just goes to show how wrong you got me. Your friend is very welcome here.
Best, Pete.

[pureoldsound]

UR12 has a great deal of knowledge on guitar amps...Stick around we can all benefit from your knowledge.....

[hansoloist]

Just goes to show how wrong you got me. Your friend is very welcome here.
Best, Pete.

Indeed. Pete's been one of the good guys around here for a long time (and, believe me, the herd seems rather thin these days). He's never been one to alienate or chastise a fellow forumite. Yes, he's British, but come on now--no one's perfect.;)

peace
-jeff

[plexi67]

""""Well, in an amp like this the transformers hold a few keys. This is one thing Ken told me 'they'd never get it right' Oh well,"""""


Wonder why he'd say that?

{~}==:::

[changeling]

ur12;
if you're still here,and i hope you are...
stick around.please.
it gets better.
peace,
r
p.s. i always find your posts over at omar's to be very informative and enlightening.

[UR12]

Hi,

Greetings UR12

Right, the unexpected power of the darkside;) I'm afraid my humour is a bit dry

Yea, I have been told that also regarding my humor being a bit dry:) It's nice to find someone here who likes to get down to what's REALLY happening inside of an amp.
Not to totally derail this but what is cobwebbs?

Spider webs. Those things that spiders make in dark damp empty rooms that havent been used in some time. (more dry humor) May I ask where you are from?

Well, in an amp like this the transformers hold a few keys. This is one thing Ken told me 'they'd never get it right' Oh well,

Makes me wonder who the "They" were he was talking about. I do know that at least some of the OT's Ken used were off the shelf Stancors and such. Not much mojo there, which brings us back to the point you made earlier regarding 'it's not the part but how you use it' (No sexual connotation intended here guys)

You like EL 34's at 460-480V, yes well I do too so what changes when you drop voltage about 100V's- you can use 6V6's in either workingpoint but only certain kinds in the higher, but anyway that's not the point, but you get easier distortion, while that can turn to mush if you're not careful and what overtone spectrum you'd get depends on the workingpoint and the dynamic load of the powertubes which in turn depends on the load at the secundary of OT- now you can do various things to stabilize things but let's say you don't but balance the wide open amp and you get a beast to control.

If your are finding good 6V6s that can operate at those voltages then you are doing better than I am. Most of the current production stuff except for maybe the JJs, while they may work for a while, they wont be reliable and hang in there at those voltages for any long period of time. This may have been true twenty years ago but not today unless you have a stash of some good NOS 6V6s. The biggest differences I see (albiet not the only one for sure) is that you will need more drive to create the distortion at higher voltages. This also equates to more power which may be a little harder to tame but I don't believe that the balance that you talk about is unobtainable at those voltages. The higher voltages will also give you more headroom.


I would be so that you can find Marshalls that sound really good or not so good and that's just the way they are, while with a Trainwreck you have a motorcycle to maintain and all parts must be trim or the amp will not sound as it should.
You can find some Marshalls, Voxes, Fenders et.c that would do something of this sort and they'd be viewed as 'magical' and some of those gave birth to the myth that amps sound their best just prior to their death while it was never intended from the factories. Dealing with such things isn't really feasible for mass production, so you'd only find a few regular amps that happen to deviate, while with a custom amp like this it can be rather intentional.

I agree whole heartedly! Adding up all the small differences in component tolerances can make a big difference and most production line amps aren't priced at a point where every component can be checked to exacting tolerances. The more components you have the worse it gets. I have intentionally used resistors marked say 8.2k that actually measured 9.1K and 125 ohm resistors that measured 130 ohms in a couple of my amps. The 125 ohm resistors were in the cathode circuit of a EL84. If a pearson tried cloning my amp from a picture with out measuring the resistor it could prove to be disasterous. This wasn't done in an attempt to hide anything I just didn't see any reason to buy another part when I had one laying around that would do the job nicely. Things aren't always as they appear when it comes to amps pictures.

About lead dress: what would an amp look like from an AC point of view at 40KHz?

Do you mean an amp running off of a 40khz line freq or an amp with a 40khz input freq. Of course the 40khz line freq would mean that all of your filter caps would be a lot smaller. They use this a lot in switching power supplies for car stereo and computer power supplies. Since you can't hear 40khz any oscillations/interlead coupling because of bad lead dress that cropt up in the amp would steal power and reak havok because you may not know it's going on (since you can't hear it) without looking at it on a scope.

Well in a highpass filter you must calculate the total resistans- Ro+RL
where Ro is the source impedance, in order to calculate the corner frequency
and just roughly you'd end up at about 440Hz.
Take a look at the Ampeg SVT and you'd get a feeling why this would be important

That's the reason when I posted my calculations that I ended with " I know there is a lot more to it than that". The source impedance will change depending on the freq of the signal applied. I'll go back and take a look at the ole SVT. The intent of my answer was to make the point that this is "one" of the critical points of Ken's amp that affects the amps voicing AND gain. A above midde C no mystery here either.

I am sure that will be an interesting amp with octals. It will sound what you make it to sound, and please believe in yourself better. Why would a drummer not build amps?You say you have repaired amps for 34 years and I would see no reason why you would not build your own amps I don't think you have to play guitar to build or understand gear meant for guitarists

Again, this was more of my dry humor or an attempt at sarcasm. My first post on this board was answered by a person who told me that I should learn to play guitar if I wanted my posts to have more weight in this forum. His next question was how many drums have I built. Personally I know what I am capable of and have confidence that I can turn out a good amp I don't profess to be another Ken fisher or Mr Dumble. I had my own amp business in the 80s and now just build amps as a hobby. The bussiness part of it took all of the fun out of it for me and now I'm back to having fun. Just this short conversation with you regarding amp designs has been fun and I appreciate you taking the time to make me look at some things from a different perspective.

My octal design is coming along fine. I just finished a multichannel amp using a 6sj7 and 6sl7 channel and it came out sounding so good I wanted to try a single channel amp using an extra stage and 6SL7 PI. It seems everyone is using 12ax7s these days. If you measure the gain from these in an actual circuit the range from 50 to 70 in most amps. 6sl7s have a gain of 80 and should easily be able to be used in most circuits where a 12ax7 would normally be used. They can be tempermental but at least it's a challenge.

To all you other guys who have ask me to stay I really appreciate the welcome. I am pretty thick skinned and don't let too much bother me. If you agree with me then fine and if ya don't then we'll just have to agree to disagree. No harm no foul.

[trisonic]

You and Bjorn make an interesting pair!
You've realized that English is not his first language nor his second which is probably Serbo-Croat. :crazyguy

Is there not so much of an interest in the Rocket - or is it just too rare?

Glad you came back, anyway.

Best, Pete.

[Frankenstrat2]

I'm curious to inquire if UR 12 is aware of who Bjorn is, and his 'stature' in the amp designing community. Are you familiar with his work at all?
BTW, has anyone else received the latest issue of the ToneQuest Report? There is an interesting article regarding the fellow that has cloned Buddy Guy's personal '59 Bassman to a Buddy Guy Signature model. It's the Chicago BluesBox Company. There was some very interesating remarks about measuring the 'drift values' of certain components as they have aged over time, and also as they heat up in the amp. This was done to make an exact sonic recreation of Buddy's existing Bassman amp (a true clone) rather than just following schematics and tuning.
In this case the builder had the actual amp to measure each value, and had to (according to him) devise methods to analyze and measure the drift values in this particular amp. He built three prototypes and lined them up in a blind test with the original and let Buddy pick the one he thought 'felt' and sounded the closest to the original 'magical' one.
A most interesting article in light of the conversations here on this thread.
To restate one of my earlier remarks, this builder set about applying his know-how to de-coding the mojo. My personal belief is that some builders do it better than others, and some are given more accessible models to work from than others. I'm sure having a real amp on your bench to clone is far superior than reading a schematic and trying to have a guitar player who is not an engineer explain 'feel', and elusive non-technical terms such as 'grit' or 'singing' or any of the other dingbat terms we guitarist non-engineers bandy about.

[UR12]

You and Bjorn make an interesting pair!
You've realized that English is not his first language nor his second which is probably Serbo-Croat. :crazyguy

Is there not so much of an interest in the Rocket - or is it just too rare?

Glad you came back, anyway.

Best, Pete.

Being from a small town in WV I'm not sure I have a handle on the english language either:)

There is a lot of interest in the Rocket and there are a few guys building them as we speak. I know of one builder who just finished a Rocket. Some people have said that the Rocket is their favorite out of the TW models. The one big problem is that there is not much info on the Rocket to date. There is a few schematics but no pics. Most are trying to follow the Liverpool layout with the addition of a Tube recto and change the preamp section over to the Rocket. I guess we'll see how it goes. I havent got around to trying to make a Rocket yet and still have a couple of amps to build that aren't TW related before I add another build to my list.

Dana

[trisonic]

That article looks interesting FS2. I'll track down a copy.

I know that some other Luthiers "poo-poo" Bill Chapin's apparent analism in presorting and micro managing electrical components in his guitars; all I know is that when it is right I like the sound - as you can tell, Dana, I know very little about how things work but can certainly tell when something is right by my ears.

Thanks, Pete.

PS FS2: I just receive a Priority Mail item from you for which many thanks! Haven't opened it yet.....

[UR12]

I'm curious to inquire if UR 12 is aware of who Bjorn is, and his 'stature' in the amp designing community. Are you familiar with his work at all?
BTW, has anyone else received the latest issue of the ToneQuest Report? There is an interesting article regarding the fellow that has cloned Buddy Guy's personal '59 Bassman to a Buddy Guy Signature model. It's the Chicago BluesBox Company. There was some very interesating remarks about measuring the 'drift values' of certain components as they have aged over time, and also as they heat up in the amp. This was done to make an exact sonic recreation of Buddy's existing Bassman amp (a true clone) rather than just following schematics and tuning.
In this case the builder had the actual amp to measure each value, and had to (according to him) devise methods to analyze and measure the drift values in this particular amp. He built three prototypes and lined them up in a blind test with the original and let Buddy pick the one he thought 'felt' and sounded the closest to the original 'magical' one.
A most interesting article in light of the conversations here on this thread.
To restate one of my earlier remarks, this builder set about applying his know-how to de-coding the mojo. My personal belief is that some builders do it better than others, and some are given more accessible models to work from than others. I'm sure having a real amp on your bench to clone is far superior than reading a schematic and trying to have a guitar player who is not an engineer explain 'feel', and elusive non-technical terms such as 'grit' or 'singing' or any of the other dingbat terms we guitarist non-engineers bandy about.

No I'm not familiar with Bjorn's work or his "Stature" but hey I'm up for discussing designing amps with anyone. He seems like a very knowledable guy who knows his stuff. Some "designers" are people who don't have a clue why they are doing something. They take circuits from different amps and schematics and combine them to come up with a design without taking into account a lot of things they should. Nothing wrong with that but I would prefer starting out with a goal in mind and then putting it down on paper and then go from there. There are alot of calculations involved to get it right. And you rarley get it right the first time (At least for me anyway)

My degree is in Industrial electronics and I graduated in 1975, which was the last class to get vaccum tube theory before they switched the curriculum over to SS. I am not an EE. Sometimes I wish I had payed more attention.:) I taught Digital Electronics for a year but found out that teaching wasn't my bag.

Good amp techs IMHO have all learned to listen to what you guitar pickers have to say in your own guitar language and translate that into terms that mean something to them.

Cloning an amp that you don't have access to is extremely difficult. Blueprinting the circuit values will get you very close and then it's all in the ears of the beholder. Voltages accross resistors can be measured and then the actual resistance of the resistor, while it is in the circuit, can be calculated. As things get hot values change. They also change as they get older usually because of heating up and cooling down over the years or having high voltages switched on and off over the years. One of the things that Bjourn talked about in one of his above posts was that amps usually sound the best right before they go out. I don't know how many times I have had a guy bring me an amp telling me the story about how his amp was sounding the best he had ever heard it and then the fuse blew and it went out. I pretty much know from that statement that he has had a tube go into meltdown. Now if we could only reproduce "that sound" we might have something.

Got to run.....Footballs on

later
Dana

[Frankenstrat2]

So, Hi Dana, and welcome to the wild and wooly, occasionally boisterous sometimes raucus but seldom boring TGP (short for The Gear Page)
Regarding Bjorn Juhl- he is the Swedish engineer that is responsible for the design and production of the Mad Professor amp, and the entire line of BJFE effects pedals.
We have a pretty good Search Engine function here at TGP. It might be enlightening for you to do some searches here on BJFE stomp boxes, and Mad Professor Amplifiers to see how much interest there is in his products.

You might also check Harmony Central reviews just to see what some of his clients have to say about his various products. There would also be quite a bit of information that would probably come up on Bjorn in a Google search. He's a pretty cool guy.

We are an interesting group here-all sorts of gear sluts, incorrigible slaves to musical technology and its various trappings, be it vintage or state-of-the-art- production, boutique or homebrew- we treat them all with proper irreverence and disrespect.
Players, builders, tinkerers, icons and unknowns can all be flamed here with equal anonymity, particularly in the cycle of the full moon.
Welcome.
On the one hand, it doesn't matter who's who. We are all just Bozos on this Bus.
I'm a 'nobody' in the world of guitars, gear and amps. But I like to hang out here with my friends, some of which I have actually met in person. Fine fellows, I can guarantee.
But there are also some very talented and fairly well-renowned players, recording artists, yes, even Grammy Award winners, teachers, and on the technical side, more than a few amp builders who hang out here.
Some of the boutique guys have had the pain and pleasure of having their successes (and failures) discussed on these pages ad nauseum. Its to their credit that they put up with us and keep coming back for more punishment. Its either love/hate or sado-masicism.
Of course some of them have also attained a pretty fair share of success- part of which can be attributed to, and has been contributed to, by their willing participation in our virtual on-line communtity. More than one reputation has been made here, and others have seen their businesses nearly destroyed as a result of TGP. (I know of at least two)
Such is the power of the Internet Discussion Boards these days, and this one in particular regarding Boutique Amps.
For some particular reason, there are certain things that guarantee a lively, if not vitriolic discussion here- one of the most infamous being discussions regarding the cloning of well-regarded rare amp designs- in particular the Dumble Overdrive Supreme and the Fischer Trainwreck series.
C'est La Vie.

[SuperSoundMusic]

Sounded great, one of the best amps I've ever played through .... but the amp I play through now I like more and costs $15k or more less.

[Babaji]

...I spoke to Ken yesterday concerning this thread. He said to tell you that he can't afford any of his own amps either! He has a computer now...Maybe one day soon he will be on the internet(a dangerous concept!). He's been a bit under the weather lately, undergoing hospital visits and seemingly endless testing...Send him some get well Mojo...
Bill

[SuperSoundMusic]

...I spoke to Ken yesterday concerning this thread. He said to tell you that he can't afford any of his own amps either! He has a computer now...Maybe one day soon he will be on the internet(a dangerous concept!). He's been a bit under the weather lately, undergoing hospital visits and seemingly endless testing...Send him some get well Mojo...
Bill

LOL! Well the amps sound amazing ... and thats what happens when something sounds incredibly good but are rare and not many were made. You're gonna see prices like the Trainwrecks fetch now. If I were a Rock Star Tone Junkie with $$$$ to burn I'd sure as heck have one.

Tell Ken to get better soon and we're certainly sending good Mojo his way!

[Guitar James]

Mojo on it's way to Ken, I hope he gets well soon.

[UR12]

BrewBeck

This is the first chance I have had time to answer your post and now it appears gone. I am basically from Huntington WV, (At least two miles from Huntington). I have been to most of the places you mentioned, War, Beckley and a few others down in the coalfields. I'm up along the Ohio River on the KY/OH border.

Hope Ken gets well soon also!

[WadeF]

I owned one of Ken's amps, the Trainwreck Express with the "serial #" Charlie Fourstar. Ken gave them names instead of numbers. I loved the amp. It had the fattest tone and roundest thump of anything I have ever owned or played through. It was so loud that I remember playing a club and putting it in the bathroom with a mic on it so I could still get the tone without getting my band kicked out. I regretfully ended up selling it, due to financial difficulties, so my wife and I could get married and stay afloat. I was young and nobody was making good attenuators back then.

Now, 5 CDs later, I still miss it everytime I'm about to make a new CD or have a gig where I can crank.

Even more so then the beautiful amp, I miss my friend, Ken. I remember times sitting around in his basement/shop all day, sharing stories and music. He's a great human being with a big heart and a friend that I regretfully lost touch with when my wife and I started having kids.

I think his heart went into his exceptional work and that gift could never be cloned!

[BJF]

Hi

This took a bit of time
Originally Posted by UR12
"Yea, I have been told that also regarding my humor being a bit dry It's nice to find someone here who likes to get down to what's REALLY happening inside of an amp."

Oh, I rarely talk about amps internal structures- that's just something I work with.
I can say I got to talk and get to know Ken over somethingelse than amplifiers, but found a great guy with the most amusing kind of humor. I hope pain can be less and more fun to Ken

Originally Posted by UR12
"Spider webs. Those things that spiders make in dark damp empty rooms that havent been used in some time. (more dry humor) May I ask where you are from?"

Woven by rare spiders one would not wonder. I am Swedish-

Originally Posted by UR12
"Makes me wonder who the "They" were he was talking about. I do know that at least some of the OT's Ken used were off the shelf Stancors and such. Not much mojo there, which brings us back to the point you made earlier regarding 'it's not the part but how you use it' (No sexual connotation intended here guys)"

Well the ones that'd try to copy his ampdesigns in the hopes to catch the magic those may hold.
Yes, well it's not really the part, but OK speaking about transformers, those would be bulky components with quite a few drawbacks from an ideal transformer. Drawbacks that sometimes can be benficial depeding on what you want to achieve

Originally Posted by UR12
"If your are finding good 6V6s that can operate at those voltages then you are doing better than I am. Most of the current production stuff except for maybe the JJs, while they may work for a while, they wont be reliable and hang in there at those voltages for any long period of time. This may have been true twenty years ago but not today unless you have a stash of some good NOS 6V6s."

Oh, just some from the airforce and come to think of it it was actually 20 years ago.
I am told the JJ's work while I would not say for so long, just yet, I think I rather hinted that.


Originally Posted by UR12
" The biggest differences I see (albiet not the only one for sure) is that you will need more drive to create the distortion at higher voltages. This also equates to more power which may be a little harder to tame but I don't believe that the balance that you talk about is unobtainable at those voltages. The higher voltages will also give you more headroom."

Ha, yes but invert that. I asked what would happen if you'd drop voltage from what you like about 100V's.
Balance is always the key in any design,any voltage,any circuit

Originally Posted by UR12
"I agree whole heartedly! Adding up all the small differences in component tolerances can make a big difference and most production line amps aren't priced at a point where every component can be checked to exacting tolerances. The more components you have the worse it gets. I have intentionally used resistors marked say 8.2k that actually measured 9.1K and 125 ohm resistors that measured 130 ohms in a couple of my amps. The 125 ohm resistors were in the cathode circuit of a EL84. If a pearson tried cloning my amp from a picture with out measuring the resistor it could prove to be disasterous. This wasn't done in an attempt to hide anything I just didn't see any reason to buy another part when I had one laying around that would do the job nicely. Things aren't always as they appear when it comes to amps pictures."

VOX made a reissue amp of their AC-30TB and it had this resistor mounted flush to the board.
You can imagine the failure rate...it was worse enough in the original where a capacitor was riding piggyback.
Yes that's a troubling thing that people may try to copy things from pictures

Originally Posted by UR12
"Do you mean an amp running off of a 40khz line freq or an amp with a 40khz input freq. Of course the 40khz line freq would mean that all of your filter caps would be a lot smaller. They use this a lot in switching power supplies for car stereo and computer power supplies. Since you can't hear 40khz any oscillations/interlead coupling because of bad lead dress that cropt up in the amp would steal power and reak havok because you may not know it's going on (since you can't hear it) without looking at it on a scope."

If you look at your amplifier as a model and examine what the circuit would look like processing 40KHz........for various reasons your amp may process higher frequencies than you hear.
Why would that be and what does it tell you?


Originally Posted by UR12
"That's the reason when I posted my calculations that I ended with " I know there is a lot more to it than that". The source impedance will change depending on the freq of the signal applied. I'll go back and take a look at the ole SVT. The intent of my answer was to make the point that this is "one" of the critical points of Ken's amp that affects the amps voicing AND gain. A above midde C no mystery here either."

Well, all you need is to calculate the Ro of the source- this must always be defined before one can attempt to calculate the corner frequency. A triode would have an Ro defined by its parameters and I assumed an ECC83- oh and Ro is for the purpose stable over the range

Originally Posted by UR12
"Again, this was more of my dry humor or an attempt at sarcasm. My first post on this board was answered by a person who told me that I should learn to play guitar if I wanted my posts to have more weight in this forum. His next question was how many drums have I built. Personally I know what I am capable of and have confidence that I can turn out a good amp"

Very good,

Originally Posted by UR12
"I don't profess to be another Ken fisher or Mr Dumble. I had my own amp business in the 80s and now just build amps as a hobby. The bussiness part of it took all of the fun out of it for me and now I'm back to having fun. Just this short conversation with you regarding amp designs has been fun and I appreciate you taking the time to make me look at some things from a different perspective."

Pleased to meet you UR12, actually I rarely visit this part of this forum-rarely see a reason to and time is short these days. I used to run an amp repairshop. but don't anymore and I don't miss that one bit, and yes I also try to have fun.

Originally Posted by UR12
"My octal design is coming along fine. I just finished a multichannel amp using a 6sj7 and 6sl7 channel and it came out sounding so good I wanted to try a single channel amp using an extra stage and 6SL7 PI. It seems everyone is using 12ax7s these days. If you measure the gain from these in an actual circuit the range from 50 to 70 in most amps. 6sl7s have a gain of 80 and should easily be able to be used in most circuits where a 12ax7 would normally be used. They can be tempermental but at least it's a challenge."

Well, when you play at the 'Hang 'em high bar' and your amp needs a new preamp tube or the doorman will blow a whole in you big as the sky or worse take you on a scooter ride on a nearby lake if you don't play Ace Of Spades and the local radioguy has had one too many moonshine drinks you borrow his keys and search for something that'll work.........
Actually works the same if you also play for the royal family......
Still if you find a tube that sounds good in the application, it'll make a fine amp.
Isn't that a great feeling when something sounds really good?

Oh I was not kidding about the crystal reciever and I also did not kid that a drummer may be an asset at aftershows ;)


Frankenstrat:

Ah yes sometimes good sounds come by accident and parts drift and most mass produced amps are built with the components that the economics department says 'will do'
I can say I have serviced some fine amps, but maybe the most inspiring amps were the once that didn't sound good or broke down or in other respects just fell outof measure becuase those answered the questions of what I would not like to see in an amp and the things you needed to do to make these amps work, and also why certain amps would only sound good under certain conditions.
Yes, I think you could clone, and especially if you can take a desired specimen apart and examine the functions, but also don't quite see the point why.
Musicians have many expressions and those are not always words, but with words it's easier to understand onomatopetic words or even made up words than technical words used in the wrong way: one customer had read sag was the secret of tone and got amps that had that and then complained that those amps got a bit mushy or indistinct after about half an hour of playing..........it can take years to find what makes you play the best you can and that's a personal experience. I think myths don't make anything easier.

BJ

[Aint Life Hell?]

PS: Dumble, John Mayer, Bruno, clips and very, very good.

[Gordon]

Originally Posted by WadeF
I owned one of Ken's amps, the Trainwreck Express with the "serial #" Charlie Fourstar. Ken gave them names instead of numbers. I loved the amp. It had the fattest tone and roundest thump of anything I have ever owned or played through. It was so loud that I remember playing a club and putting it in the bathroom with a mic on it so I could still get the tone without getting my band kicked out. I regretfully ended up selling it, due to financial difficulties, so my wife and I could get married and stay afloat. I was young and nobody was making good attenuators back then.

Now, 5 CDs later, I still miss it everytime I'm about to make a new CD or have a gig where I can crank.

Even more so then the beautiful amp, I miss my friend, Ken. I remember times sitting around in his basement/shop all day, sharing stories and music. He's a great human being with a big heart and a friend that I regretfully lost touch with when my wife and I started having kids.

I think his heart went into his exceptional work and that gift could never be cloned!


Hi Wade and welcome to TGP. You picked a very interesting thread to join in on. I have heard that Charlie Fourstar is a great amp. I'm sorry you had to sell her.

Not only does Ken's heart go into his work but so do his decades of experience and talent. That's another tough one to clone.

Hope to hear more from you in these forums, again welcome.

Gordon

[Frankenstrat2]

Hi
Frankenstrat:

Ah yes sometimes good sounds come by accident and parts drift and most mass produced amps are built with the components that the economics department says 'will do'
I can say I have serviced some fine amps, but maybe the most inspiring amps were the once that didn't sound good or broke down or in other respects just fell outof measure becuase those answered the questions of what I would not like to see in an amp and the things you needed to do to make these amps work, and also why certain amps would only sound good under certain conditions.
Yes, I think you could clone, and especially if you can take a desired specimen apart and examine the functions, but also don't quite see the point why.
Musicians have many expressions and those are not always words, but with words it's easier to understand onomatopetic words or even made up words than technical words used in the wrong way: one customer had read sag was the secret of tone and got amps that had that and then complained that those amps got a bit mushy or indistinct after about half an hour of playing..........it can take years to find what makes you play the best you can and that's a personal experience. I think myths don't make anything easier.
BJ
Well I can confirm that most if not all of my good sounds come by accident. :dude
But I also believe in 'Mojo'- whatever it is, that undefinable, difficult to explain phenomenon that makes something seem undeniably exceptional for no apparent or discernable reason. Whether its a guitar, a pedal, an amp, barbeque sauce, or a painting.
There is art, there is science, then there is the unexplainable.
Can the Mona Lisa be copied? Of course. Can it be reproduced? Possibly. Can the pigments be aged, the effects of light on the pigments reproduced?...Difficult, but not impossible, perhaps...and if not now, maybe in time. But they will still be copies. Not clones.
Clones share the same DNA, no?
So the only way to 'clone' a Trainwreck amplifier would be to reproduce its exact internal structure. Every part with the same values, aged as the original, through heating up, cooling off...the wood case, the solder. Everything- including, perhaps- Ken Fischer building it?
Otherwise it is not a clone. Just a ....copy.
So there can be good copies- even very good, excellent brilliant copies.
But they are not the Mona Lisa.
So then I think that Ken's amps, and Mad Professor amps, and certain BJFE pedals, like certain other guitars, or amps or pedals have an undefineable, unmeasurable.....something.
I know in the cold world of science this can't be so, or shouldn't be so. A measurement is a measurement, a millivolt is a millivolt. But it is inconsistency that makes for the unique, wonderful mistakes that become 'special'. Maybe that's what 'Mojo' is?
What we really need is the Star Trek machine where you ask the computer for beef stew, and a little window opens, and there is the stew- steaming hot, perfect. Manufactured from atoms, not a recipe.
But would that stew have the Mojo?
Maybe, if it was really broken down to a molecular level. Thats what real cloning is, isn't it? Scotty- Beam me down a Dumble, please! Make it that tan one with EL-34s!
You see, I don't condemn anything that goes on in our community, except for mean people. If someone can build a great amp, if someone can copy a great amp and its a great copy, for any purpose- it doesn't offend my ethical concerns.
Its a big world.
There are plenty of sounds to go around for everyone.

[outtahear]

Mojo's usually something real-just something yet defined/measured.

Radiation was around forever (or 10,000 years, depending where you go Sun.Morning).....long before it was "discovered".

[BJF]

Hi
Originally posted by Frankenstrat


"Well I can confirm that most if not all of my good sounds come by accident."

Yes, very often and it's human and progress and ........

"But I also believe in 'Mojo'- whatever it is, that undefinable, difficult to explain phenomenon that makes something seem undeniably exceptional for no apparent or discernable reason. Whether its a guitar, a pedal, an amp, barbeque sauce, or a painting.
There is art, there is science, then there is the unexplainable."

Yes sure, like what does the Sun consist of?

Can the Mona Lisa be copied? Of course. Can it be reproduced? Possibly. Can the pigments be aged, the effects of light on the pigments reproduced?...Difficult, but not impossible, perhaps...and if not now, maybe in time. But they will still be copies. Not clones.
Clones share the same DNA, no?
So the only way to 'clone' a Trainwreck amplifier would be to reproduce its exact internal structure.

To do a convincing clone I think you'd need to get the most recognizable parts visiable or experienced: if you'd do a clone of a series of things you'd likely be fine with getting the common factor- though that may be something to define and it might be very hard


"Every part with the same values, aged as the original, through heating up, cooling off...the wood case, the solder. Everything- including, perhaps- Ken Fischer building it?
Otherwise it is not a clone. Just a ....copy."

Hm, well I think it'd be a clone if it'd share enough qualities to be easily misstaken for an original- at least the limit of this could be strechable to what's convincing as in where can you tell when clone looks the same and sounds what you'd expect?
Somehow copies tend to mean or have a cheap element implicit

"So there can be good copies- even very good, excellent brilliant copies.
But they are not the Mona Lisa."

No they wouldn't be, but does it matter to Michelangelo?

"So then I think that Ken's amps, and Mad Professor amps, and certain BJFE pedals, like certain other guitars, or amps or pedals have an undefineable, unmeasurable.....something.
I know in the cold world of science this can't be so, or shouldn't be so. A measurement is a measurement, a millivolt is a millivolt."

Then I would be humbled by your opinion

"But it is inconsistency that makes for the unique, wonderful mistakes that become 'special'. Maybe that's what 'Mojo' is?"

Yes I believe that

"What we really need is the Star Trek machine where you ask the computer for beef stew, and a little window opens, and there is the stew- steaming hot, perfect. Manufactured from atoms, not a recipe.
But would that stew have the Mojo?"

Oh last computor Deep Thought was asked the answer was 42.......
which for instance answers 'How many roads must a man walk down?'

Maybe, if it was really broken down to a molecular level. Thats what real cloning is, isn't it?

Yes and scary thought too ;)

"Scotty- Beam me down a Dumble, please! Make it that tan one with EL-34s!"

Well actually I asked Scotty at the Chicago show and he smiled and said I had to wait my turn.....

"You see, I don't condemn anything that goes on in our community, except for mean people. "

I know Barry and you're a great human being

"If someone can build a great amp, if someone can copy a great amp and its a great copy, for any purpose- it doesn't offend my ethical concerns.
Its a big world."

OK point taken- though maybe it gets a bit more sensitive when you spend many years to develop something?
But sure it really is a big world and that is also the point I tried to make that in whatever you do you'd like your fingerprint?- sort of why you have children?....unless they just happen because you had nothing better to do or oh well.... but the world is big and I think one could easily proceed on what sounds good ;) and I believe that is where the spirit is at, as in it sounds good -let's have fun!

"There are plenty of sounds to go around for everyone."

Yup," The World's a stage and each must play their part" E. A. Presley

As always at your service
BJ

[pureoldsound]

Ok, so if I understand correctly….If I take an amp “THAT IT’S NOT IN CURRENT PRODUCTION” measure every component values, measure the distance that each component is apart from each other, measure the length of the wires. Buy the exact same parts (to “avoid the each manufacturer’s parts have a different sound issue”) use same OT, PTs, do the same layout….The amp still be an inspired circuit but not a true CLONE because it does not have the “TOUCH” or the “ERRORs” of the original builder? In other words the “MOJO”!!!!!! :jo

You got to be kidding me!!!!!:NUTS

If this is true, then all the Marshall, VOX, D*, Fender clones out there built by all of these famous boutique builders better stop selling the fallacy that they are selling exact replicas when in reality they are selling us INSPIRED circuits ……If this is the case I WANT MY MONEY BACK……:crazy



You want to stop the cloning of a famous amps bring them back as a RI…Fender did it (lots of people buy DRRI…That amp gets great praises….Marshall HW, VOX HW and CC…..Want to divert or minimize the TW cloning, K should ask Ken for his blessing and do a RI of the Wrecks….Would they sell? of course they will there is a demand for such amps…..Now I am sure that if that happens, people will say “It sounds exactly the same as the original” and I will ask how come? When people where cloning them they were close but not too close as it was impossible to recreate… Ahh must be the MOJO that got transferred to other hands…..

Just make a RI and be done with it….. :drool

[Frankenstrat2]

Ok, so if I understand correctly….If I take an amp “THAT IT’S NOT IN CURRENT PRODUCTION” measure every component values, measure the distance that each component is apart from each other, measure the length of the wires. Buy the exact same parts (to “avoid the each manufacturer’s parts have a different sound issue”) use same OT, PTs, do the same layout….The amp still be an inspired circuit but not a true CLONE because it does not have the “TOUCH” or the “ERRORs” of the original builder? In other words the “MOJO”!!!!!! :jo

You got to be kidding me!!!!!:NUTS
Thats only if you are willing to accept what I threw out as *my* definition of what a *clone* should be defined as....

If this is true, then all the Marshall, VOX, D*, Fender clones out there built by all of these famous boutique builders better stop selling the fallacy that they are selling exact replicas when in reality they are selling us INSPIRED circuits ……If this is the case I WANT MY MONEY BACK……:crazy
Well, you'd have to take that up with whoever you bought those replicas from. *IF* the replica Fender amps, Marshall reissues (yes-even the point-to-point ones -Vox too) and the RI guitars were all as good as the 'original' now prime vintage examples, why would anyone pay $30,000 for a strat, or a premium of an original Plexi, AC-30 or any of the other vintage goods that command high prices. Certainly not because they are 'reliced'- you can buy that new also- WITH a warrantee. They are willing to pay for them because buyers have placed a higher value on their 'Mojo'- and....maybe they sound and play and feel better than the modern 'copies'?



You want to stop the cloning of a famous amps bring them back as a RI…Fender did it (lots of people buy DRRI…That amp gets great praises….Marshall HW, VOX HW and CC…..
Great praise is simply not the same thing as 'Just As Good As The Original'...
Tampa ToneFest has proved time and time again that no clone has yet been 'Just Exactly As Good'. The phenomenon I am referring to has happened year after year, in front of a varying audience of impartial listeners. Modern clones simply do not beat out the real deal. Ever. Even the guys who build them know that.

Want to divert or minimize the TW cloning, K should ask Ken for his blessing and do a RI of the Wrecks….
I would think the only people who would be concerned with 'diverting or minimizing' TW cloning would be either Ken himself, the Komet people, or the original TW owners who fear de-valuation. Perhaps the latter group would be more in fear of the RI or ressurection of the original TW production, as it might impact on the rarity and highly inflated collectible value the existing models have attained. Matchless and the resumption of production would be a good example....

Would they sell? of course they will there is a demand for such amps…..Now I am sure that if that happens, people will say “It sounds exactly the same as the original”
I'm not as confident that would be the case, since, for example later production Dumbles do not sound much like earlier models, from what I have heard and observed. How can you be so sure that if Ken decided to build amps again today that he would even want to build the same things he was interested in building 15 years ago? Have you asked him? I haven't.


and I will ask how come? When people where cloning them they were close but not too close as it was impossible to recreate… Ahh must be the MOJO that got transferred to other hands…..
Not to insult any of the cloners who might be passing through here, but I have yet to hear any TW copy that stood up to the original. I'll be the first to say Huzzah! on the day I come back from a ToneFest or get-together where there is a real Express and a copy side-by-side and I got to hear them both under fair comparison circumstances. I have been fortunate to have had that experience several times at various ToneFests that I have attended.
That is my opinion from personal observation.
I am not saying that there cant be a copy made that would change my mind. I'm just saying I haven't heard one yet.

:horse


thanks for reading.
barry

[pureoldsound]

barry

Well, you'd have to take that up with whoever you bought those replicas from. *IF* the replica Fender amps, Marshall reissues (yes-even the point-to-point ones -Vox too) and the RI guitars were all as good as the 'original' now prime vintage examples, why would anyone pay $30,000 for a strat, or a premium of an original Plexi, AC-30 or any of the other vintage goods that command high prices. Certainly not because they are 'reliced'- you can buy that new also- WITH a warrantee. They are willing to pay for them because buyers have placed a higher value on their 'Mojo'- and....maybe they sound and play and feel better than the modern 'copies'?

I won’t say that a vintage piece is not desirable or that it does not contain THE sound…They hold their own water and can be well commended…However, price you put on it is demand and mostly HYPE….

Can’t really compare a 30yr old OT, PT to a brand new one…They will sound different the same as the components. However with time I think they can be pretty close or identical in sound….Just like a speaker can you compare a 30 yro speaker to one brand new out of a box?

Great praise is simply not the same thing as 'Just As Good As The Original'...
Tampa ToneFest has proved time and time again that no clone has yet been 'Just Exactly As Good'. The phenomenon I am referring to has happened year after year, in front of a varying audience of impartial listeners. Modern clones simply do not beat out the real deal. Ever. Even the guys who build them know that.

Again Age is a determinant factor

I would think the only people who would be concerned with 'diverting or minimizing' TW cloning would be either Ken himself, the Komet people, or the original TW owners who fear de-valuation. Perhaps the latter group would be more in fear of the RI or ressurection of the original TW production, as it might impact on the rarity and highly inflated collectible value the existing models have attained. Matchless and the resumption of production would be a good example....

I agree, the ones will oppose or be concern will be the current owners which fear devalue…..

I'm not as confident that would be the case, since, for example later production Dumbles do not sound much like earlier models, from what I have heard and observed. How can you be so sure that if Ken decided to build amps again today that he would even want to build the same things he was interested in building 15 years ago? Have you asked him? I haven't.

Old D* do sound different from the new ones, but that maybe due to the builder vision in improving the design….If he still be in production and there is a demand for an old circuit I am sure he will fulfill the demand….. Ken already built something different from 15 Yrs ago is called THE KOMET and CONCORDE…..If we want something different we’ll go with that…The demand is for the old stuff….


Interesting reading different ideals, no flame or sarcasm intended….Just a simple discussion….Thanks from bringing your point across….

[sethmeister]

Hmmm. My first marriage was a real Trainwreck!

[plexi67]

To compare two identicle amps, you'd have to play them both through the same cab,and also use the same tubes,and use the same guitar, to be more exact. Many reissiues fall short of coming close to the real thing. But some cloners have built amps that are much better than the reissiues,and some even as good or better than the amp they are cloning.
Its hard to compare the old amps or originals, since over time,caps and resistors drift in value,transformers and speakers age etc. I'm sure you can put 10 original amps side by side,and find one good one,that sounds magicly better than the other nine. [just an example]. Marshall 18 amps for example, marshall siad they listened to a few different ones to find the "best" sounding one. And alot of those early transformers were much different between one in another,same amp. If you had one amp out of a few, that sounded better, then you'd have to measure everything to find out why, to closer copy it. There is much more to it, a pic of the amp may show what was used,but unless you measured eveything,you can be off a bit. Amps that use more inexpensive caps and CC resistors tend to drift more over time. the caps and resistors in a Wreck do not drift very much from the rated value. Although most parts used are anywhere from 2 to 20%.
If these parts were measured when building the amp,to make sure they were spot on..Then it sould be very close to the same value today. Lets just say, there is alot more to it than just copying a picture of the inside of an amp. And the main key is te transformers,as was posted. If these are not correct,then no matter what parts you use,it might be close,but never exact.

[Frankenstrat2]

To compare to identicle amps, you'd have to play them both through the same cab,and also use the same tubes,and use the same guitar, to be more exact.
That is exactly how we have done A/B tests in the past

[matte]

So then I think that Ken's amps, and Mad Professor amps, and certain BJFE pedals, like certain other guitars, or amps or pedals have an undefineable, unmeasurable.....something.
bjorn designed a unique amp, no doubt, but kenny fischer he ain't. let's see where mp is 15-20 years from now. ttbomk, there are roughly 36 mps on the planet. i understand that bjorn isn't responsible for their manufacturing either.

[Frankenstrat2]

So Matte-
I take it you've played an MP?

[BJF]

Hi

Originally Posted by Matte

"bjorn designed a unique amp, no doubt",

Thank you, though I think that is off topic

"but kenny fischer he ain't."

I'd like to be me,quite simply,thanks.

" let's see where mp is 15-20 years from now. "

Well, those who live will know

"ttbomk,"

and this means?

"there are roughly 36 mps on the planet. i understand that bjorn isn't responsible for their manufacturing either."

You'd be quite correct and I cannot give you or anyoneelse a discount.

Take care
BJ

[matte]

So Matte-
I take it you've played an MP?
the one @ buzzy's. cool amp. prefer my wreck and deliverance, as single channel amps go.

[matte]

"ttbomk,"
BJ
to the best of my knowledge.

[allynmey]

I just prefer to play something that I personally made!:JAM

Think I'll make a connie next and see if I can't fix that microphonic issue they are are having.:D

Allynmey

[57gold]

...and I was faced with a situation that my designs were being manufactured and marketed in quantity, that schematics and photos of my chasis were being widely distributed on the web...I would do what others who have been ripped off in this way have.

Marshall, Fender, and Vox after years of seeing replicas of their classic circuits produced got the joke and make accurate reissues. This phenomenon has not been limited to amps...Santa Cruz and Collings made better prewar Martins than Martin, some say that they still do. But it took the stimulus of those builders to get Martin to see th opportunity and evidenc of the demand necessary to invest in their remanufacture.

Was on KF's waiting list for an Express, Rocket and Liverpool since 1990...I guess I still am?

Not willing to pay $27k for one that was on Ebay (son at Ivy League college and two more to go and it ain't getting cheaper), just like KF is unwilling to fill my orders. I know he has had health problems, but I also know that if I was a name player, my orders would have been filled.

I also know that there are folks out there that would have loved to recreate the circuits on an authorized basis. I own amps by Alessandro and 2 Komets, both companies that would see a spike in sales if they made an Express or Rocket or Liverpool Version II and both have/had relationships with KF.

My view is that this situation is in Ken's hands. Based upon my understanding of what makes an original Trainwreck special, obsessing over every part, its directionality, the "on the fly" subtitution for another part to make the tone sparkle with a particular set of NOS tubes.....unless KF's ears tune the amp, it won't be an original Trainwreck. The market will get this. Version II would probably have to be assembled by other hands and ears...the trick would be to make sure those hands and ears understand what they are building, have a reference to build to, both layout-wise and tonally. The answer is simple, others have figuired out how to deal with cloning, replicas....the choice is KF's.

I'd order a KF authorized Express and Rocket Version II today if he did it right. KF could go back to his list and sell several dozen from it alone. Seems pretty simple to me.

[matte]

unless KF's ears tune the amp, it won't be an original Trainwreck. exactly.

[Frankenstrat2]

yup and yup.

[allynmey]

I don't think I recall anyone here saying that their clone IS a Trainwreck. Since I built mine and not others I feel qualified to discuss my amp only. I will however say that I copied Francesca part for part, actual part value not what is specifically written on the side, and have a rockin' amp that has the same sound and feel. You may see some comments on this thread soon since I lent my Express to two different TGP members for their review. I will also have it at the NJ ampfest for all you hecklers!;)

Allynmey

[Mook]

Can't this thread die?



http://www.magnoliablueband.com/Trainwrecktat2.JPG

[guitarpkr67]

That's hardcore.

[pureoldsound]

Can't this thread die?

\\


apparently not.....But you know, I've been here a while (you longer than me) and these type of threads pup up from time to time...Heck I even started one a while back and before me there were a couple...I think now we have moved to D*** again...there is one with the prices and onther with the DuNble issue....

[Tag]

But I also believe in 'Mojo'- whatever it is, that undefinable, difficult to explain phenomenon that makes something seem undeniably exceptional for no apparent or discernable reason. Whether its a guitar, a pedal, an amp, barbeque sauce, or a painting.
There is art, there is science, then there is the unexplainable.
Can the Mona Lisa be copied? Of course. Can it be reproduced? Possibly. Can the pigments be aged, the effects of light on the pigments reproduced?...Difficult, but not impossible, perhaps...and if not now, maybe in time. But they will still be copies. Not clones.
Clones share the same DNA, no?
So the only way to 'clone' a Trainwreck amplifier would be to reproduce its exact internal structure. Every part with the same values, aged as the original, through heating up, cooling off...the wood case, the solder. Everything- including, perhaps- Ken Fischer building it?
Otherwise it is not a clone. Just a ....copy.



If you han not hear a difference, thats all that matters. Any amp can be EASILY cloned. Every amp will also sound slightly different. Just like two Production fenders, or even two of the same speakers. Any two amps by ANYONE sound slightly different. There is no magic.

[pureoldsound]

To keep adding to the mix...We all have stated that age will become a factor when cloning an amp...Same example that I used on this thread...You can't compare a new speaker with a 30yr old one...You just can't they will sound different...But give some playing tho that speaker and with time it either come extremely close to the 30 yr old one or exactly the same....Same goes with the clones....Which it is what it has been discussed numerous time already....They went inside a real TW amp measured all the values, cables distances, blah, blah,blah.....and from there some built an amp using the same layout, values, blah, blah,blah....I think that is an exact replica if you ask me..Would they sound exactly the same?...Maybe not at first, can’t compare a 20yr old OT vs a brand new one...However give some time and break in that amp with lots of playing, and then do another A/B with the original...I bet it will pretty close or equally sounding….

[hamrhed1]

To keep adding to the mix...We all have stated that age will become a factor when cloning an amp...Same example that I used on this thread...You can't compare a new speaker with a 30yr old one...You just can't they will sound different...But give some playing tho that speaker and with time it either come extremely close to the 30 yr old one or exactly the same....Same goes with the clones....Which it is what it has been discussed numerous time already....They went inside a real TW amp measured all the values, cables distances, blah, blah,blah.....and from there some built an amp using the same layout, values, blah, blah,blah....I think that is an exact replica if you ask me..Would they sound exactly the same?...Maybe not at first, can’t compare a 20yr old OT vs a brand new one...However give some time and break in that amp with lots of playing, and then do another A/B with the original...I bet it will pretty close or equally sounding….

Agreed, has to be pretty darn close. I'm guessing if we can exactly clone a sheep, we can probably exactly clone an amp (from our numerous physical examples and exact measurments). How hard can it be for a skilled professional in this domain armed with all of this information? What can't be cloned is market value.

There will always be those who insist that the 'baaaaaaaaa' of the clone was not nearly as harmonically rich as the original. :rolleyes:

[Frankenstrat2]

I have mixed feelings about replying since it perpetuates the thread.
However- its interesting to me that the 'cloners' and their supportors would like to pat themselves on the back for being able to replicate to 'majic, mojo, or whatever you want to call it....the 'essence' if you will of a highly regarded amp....
While at the same time the owner/investor, supporters of the mystical qualities of the species want to maintain that elusive mystery and claim it cannot be totally replicated.
While I enjoy playing Devil's advocate against both sides of the debate (its fun)
I would again call everybody's attention to the current issue of Dave Wilson's current issue of ToneQuest report, with an in-depth interview with the owner/builder/proprieter of Chicago Blues Box.
He was presented with the challenge of replicating (cloning, if you will) an exact replica of Buddy Guy's favorite (and reputedly mojolicious) Fender Tweed Bassman.
Notwithstanding the contact paper that Buddy had applied over the tweedless cab at a previous time, the challenge for the builder/cloner was to measure not just the values of the compnents, but to devise new methods of measurement for parts that heat, and cool, and perform differently at various stages of heating up/cooling down.
I don't bring this up to prove any point, but rather to re-introduce an earlier point.
You can measure all you want. *If* the amp in question does not replicate the performance of the amp it is cloned from, (and thermal issues seem to have a great bearing on the equation,) then regardless of how much you pat yourself on the back for doing a great job, the results will be flawed to some extent.
In the case of the Buddy Guy experiment (for those who don't have access to the magazine) the builder ultimately gave Buddy a blind hearing/playing test with the amps out of sight. There was his original, and 3 clones, each with slight variations.
Buddy picked the one closest to his based on response, feel and sound.
Way to go!
My point has always been that the only way you will test the accuracy of your clone is not with a voltmeter. If you had the ability to put test probes on the actual amp, and attempt to clone it, don't you also have the ability to take the actual
amp, and your clone, put them next to each other and have the guy who owns it turn his back and play through them both?
If you had done your job as a cloner, he should not be able to tell them apart.
Just saying.....

[Gordon]

i understand the guys who want to get the exact sound and to do so go and measure the values of each and every component. But, that's not the entire picture. When you measure the value of a resistor your meter tells you the resistance in ohms. That resistor also has an inductance and a capacitance. Those are the things that you're not measuring but do contribute to the tone of that specific part. The same goes for capacitors.

I think that there has been a lot of discussion of MOJO. Which is some kind of an unquantifiable characteristic. Thing is, it's not all just the MOJO, it's the stuff that you're not measuring that goes into the sound.

Couple that with the fact that every transformer sounds different and I don't know how anybody could make an accurate clone of any specific amp.

If it was me who wanted to make a clone I would use my ears and make an amp that sounds right for me instead of trying to copy something using a bunch of parts that are all different form the original.

[Frankenstrat2]

i understand the guys who want to get the exact sound and to do so go and measure the values of each and every component. But, that's not the entire picture. When you measure the value of a resistor your meter tells you the resistance in ohms. That resistor also has an inductance and a capacitance. Those are the things that you're not measuring but do contribute to the tone of that specific part. The same goes for capacitors.

I think that there has been a lot of discussion of MOJO. Which is some kind of an unquantifiable characteristic. Thing is, it's not all just the MOJO, it's the stuff that you're not measuring that goes into the sound.

Couple that with the fact that every transformer sounds different and I don't know how anybody could make an accurate clone of any specific amp.

If it was me who wanted to make a clone I would use my ears and make an amp that sounds right for me instead of trying to copy something using a bunch of parts that are all different form the original.
I sort of agree, but would add that even when the parts are the same, and the values, there will be those that argue that the amp still isn't.....the same.
Its that undefineable.....something. Drives engineers and scientists crazy because in there world it should be define-able, researchable, and reproduceable.
I understand.
But the 'artistic' side of me still believes in the other part too.
The whole IS greater than the sum of its parts.
WHY that is is the part no one can ever explain.
It just.....IS.
Argue all you want.
Mojo just.....is

[mykljpao]

Well now...I actually did take the time to read every page before posting here. I must begin by stating uncategorically that I HAVE NEVER HAD THE PLEASURE OF PLAYING THROUGH A GENUINE TRAINWRECK. That disclosure out of the way, I am fortunate enough to have Allynmey's hand built approximation of Ken Fischer's Francesca in my personal guitar dungeon. (see, I didn't even say "clone"....the importance some people ascribe to a single word can be astounding) And that amplifier absolutely KICKS SERIOUS ASS! It is brilliant and deep, articulate, expressive, extraordinarily touch sensitive, harmonically rich, wild and edgy. Bears some resemblance to my Constellation and rather overshadows Andy's Train 45 sitting adjacent to it. (sorry Andy, and I am a HUGE fan of your amps) Certainly has a flavor more like moonshine than cogniac. Oh, and its.....LOUD!! Has the first 3 way bright switch that is more dramatic than subtle and is completely useable with either single coils or hb's. I have used this analogy in the past with the Constellation: feels like being on Class 4+ water; almost out of control, wild, kinda scarey but when you lock in with it, what a rush of a ride.
I don't know if Allyn's amp sounds exactly like that from which its build was taken.....and neither do any of you until they are side by side. All I can tell you is, Allyn built one hell of a machine, would seem to know exactly what he was trying to accomplish and is satisfied that he has met that goal. Not for personal gain, but as a challenge to himself and out of respect for an implement that has apparently attained mystic proportion.

Although I do believe in 'mojo' (I have a Jenkins and a Rivera cab that sound great with everything I've ever put through them for no particular reason) I ascribe it more to happenstance than any particular "magic" that flows from Ken or Alexander or anyone else for that matter. These are electronic appliances, nothing more, nothing less over which we obsess. Some more than others the result of builders, some more or less talented than others. The greatest builders/designers, what have you, all have had failures on the road to their successes. It takes nothing away from an appreciation of their talent to admit that someone else might be able to replicate their success. If they are to be criticized for their efforts than perhaps all of us who do not write our own "original" music should stop playing and Germino, Aiken, Fuchs, Two Rock, Victoria.....et al should be told to stop their nefarious actions as well. If emulation is the greatest form of flattery, then perhaps Ken should simply be flattered that a few with the skills chose to spend some of their time paying homage to his past work. They are not getting rich at his or anyone else's expense.
The more good stuff that's out there, the better. I'm fortunate to own a number of extraordinary amps and Allyn's is as good or better than anything currently in the stable. Congrats. BTW: I can also attest to the fact that Allyn is a decent, generous guy who is motivated ttbomk by a genuine love of tone and using his own talents to build some of the machines we use to attain that elusive quality.
great playing to all...

[allynmey]

Thanks for the nice words Mike....one question, will I need to bring a gun to get it back?:roll

Allyn

[Tread]

Well now...I actually did take the time to read every page before posting here. I must begin by stating uncategorically that I HAVE NEVER HAD THE PLEASURE OF PLAYING THROUGH A GENUINE TRAINWRECK. That disclosure out of the way, I am fortunate enough to have Allynmey's hand built approximation of Ken Fischer's Francesca in my personal guitar dungeon. (see, I didn't even say "clone"....the importance some people ascribe to a single word can be astounding) And that amplifier absolutely KICKS SERIOUS ASS! It is brilliant and deep, articulate, expressive, extraordinarily touch sensitive, harmonically rich, wild and edgy. Bears some resemblance to my Constellation and rather overshadows Andy's Train 45 sitting adjacent to it. (sorry Andy, and I am a HUGE fan of your amps) Certainly has a flavor more like moonshine than cogniac. Oh, and its.....LOUD!! Has the first 3 way bright switch that is more dramatic than subtle and is completely useable with either single coils or hb's. I have used this analogy in the past with the Constellation: feels like being on Class 4+ water; almost out of control, wild, kinda scarey but when you lock in with it, what a rush of a ride.
I don't know if Allyn's amp sounds exactly like that from which its build was taken.....and neither do any of you until they are side by side. All I can tell you is, Allyn built one hell of a machine, would seem to know exactly what he was trying to accomplish and is satisfied that he has met that goal. Not for personal gain, but as a challenge to himself and out of respect for an implement that has apparently attained mystic proportion.

Although I do believe in 'mojo' (I have a Jenkins and a Rivera cab that sound great with everything I've ever put through them for no particular reason) I ascribe it more to happenstance than any particular "magic" that flows from Ken or Alexander or anyone else for that matter. These are electronic appliances, nothing more, nothing less over which we obsess. Some more than others the result of builders, some more or less talented than others. The greatest builders/designers, what have you, all have had failures on the road to their successes. It takes nothing away from an appreciation of their talent to admit that someone else might be able to replicate their success. If they are to be criticized for their efforts than perhaps all of us who do not write our own "original" music should stop playing and Germino, Aiken, Fuchs, Two Rock, Victoria.....et al should be told to stop their nefarious actions as well. If emulation is the greatest form of flattery, then perhaps Ken should simply be flattered that a few with the skills chose to spend some of their time paying homage to his past work. They are not getting rich at his or anyone else's expense.
The more good stuff that's out there, the better. I'm fortunate to own a number of extraordinary amps and Allyn's is as good or better than anything currently in the stable. Congrats. BTW: I can also attest to the fact that Allyn is a decent, generous guy who is motivated ttbomk by a genuine love of tone and using his own talents to build some of the machines we use to attain that elusive quality.
great playing to all...

That is very well put and should end this "debate" but probably will not.
....due to the insecurities of others.
Again...well said Sir.

[Jhtjon]

I couldn't have said it better. BTW I was the one who arranged the meeting between Francesca's owner and allynmey.