Is Sprague the ONLY electrolytic?

[pfrischmann]

Hi guys,
I'm about to recap an amp. I've read that american caps are the ONLY caps. Is there really that much difference between Sparague and Xicon or Illinois?

Gerald Weber mentions that A good deal of overseas made caps will cause out of tune bass notes.

Is it true?

Is it sprague or nothing?

[Tuberattler]

I've used spragues and I've used the smaller ones. I don't hear any difference, however, I do use the big caps on the power supply if it's a bigger amp 50 watts & over or like on a Deluxe Reverb where it's really kickin' it voltage wise.

I've even used the small ones from Weber with very good luck. The smaller caps allow more room inside the chassis and with modern technology I don't see why you wouldn't use them. Also, they're cheaper to purchase.

Me I like both and use the small ones quite a bit.

[Blue Strat]

Hi guys,
I'm about to recap an amp. I've read that american caps are the ONLY caps. Is there really that much difference between Sparague and Xicon or Illinois?

Gerald Weber mentions that A good deal of overseas made caps will cause out of tune bass notes.

Is it true?

Is it sprague or nothing?

For the $1 or $2 you save, why wonder? Just get the Spragues.

[Leftee]

I've had fine performance from non-Spragues. In my expereince, "A good deal of overseas made caps will cause out of tune bass notes" is not a correct statement at all.

[pfrischmann]

It's more about availibility than cost. It would take about 4 sources to get all the values I need, or I can go to the local electronics shop and get Xicons (correct value and voltage of course).

[Tuberattler]

The overseas caps may have had a problem WAY BACK WHEN but like all thing in this new global economy they had to get their stuff together and IMO they have.

[GenoBluzGtr]

I can't say personally, but in Gerald Weber's books he mentions the Illinois caps specifically and says they "Sound Horrible" (his words, not mine)... he also mentions that although they are named "illinois", they are actually made in Taiwan or Malaysia or somewhere.

I'm with Mike... why concern yourself with a couple dollars... get what you know is best.

[Blue Strat]

It's more about availibility than cost. It would take about 4 sources to get all the values I need, or I can go to the local electronics shop and get Xicons (correct value and voltage of course).

Mouser or Antique Electronics don't have all the values you need?

[Mr. SD-1]

For the record, I believe Naylor amps use Illinois and they sound amazing.

[Leftee]

I've used Illinois caps before with good results. Certainly "A good deal of overseas made caps will cause out of tune bass notes." was not the case. Never had a bad one. Some of the amps I've used these in have been running for a couple years now and sound fine.

[teleamp]

I've been inside some 2 & 3K high gain amps and they were loaded with Illinois and Xicon, they also sounded great.

The Srague Atoms are now made by Vishay.

[Swarty]

I believe all US electrolytics, regardless of brand are from United Chemicon.

[Tuberattler]

Just because GWeber says something is good doesn't mean it's fact. I'd take Ted Weber word first and I own a Kendrick amp! For what it's worth my Hoffman amp, made by Doug Hoffman has the smaller caps in it and it's killer!!

[pfrischmann]

Mouser or Antique Electronics don't have all the values you need?

Mouser didn't have some of the stuff in stock and honestly, their site is a little scary to navigate.

forgot about antique.

Just to clarify, GW said the overseas stuff can cause more ripple current which can cause out of tune sub harmonics on low notes.

[jetlag]

I've had some problems with older Illinois caps that were in an amp when I bought them - meaning they replaced the original 50's caps in the 90's with these and they had problems. No problems with Xicon nor with full sized spragues. I use the Xicons when space/mounting is an issue. Otherwise, I'm with Bluestrat on "why save a couple $$$ and wonder?"

[pfrischmann]

So spragues are undeniably the best? (within reason)

[rooster]

I usually test my caps on a Sencore Z-meter before I install them. This is a piece of bench gear that not only lets me read capacitance at voltage (up to 600VDC), but leakage current as well. I have noticed no more leakage current off a Xicon electrolytic than a Sprague electrolytic. Having said that, for some applications, I only use Sprague electrolytics, but Xicon's work fine in many applications. Also, as far as film caps go, I HAVE noticed a difference in that paper-in-oil caps have almost no leakage current. But, I've also noticed that Illinois polyester caps have a great sound compared to orange drops, hovlands, or any high-end cap. I think the one that sounds the best is the way to pick the series caps, and the filter caps should be judged on ripple current. FWIW, JJ multi-cap cans work very well in the leakage (or lack thereof) aspect.

rooster.

[Tonebender]

What about the Mallory electrolytics that Komet uses? Anyone know who sells them?

[conundrum]

Well, since vishay owns Mallory now too, I would hazard a guess that maybe they are just relabled spragues.

[pfrischmann]

Mouser sure wants a lot more for the Mallory's

I can't find 220uf @ 350v anywhere (except as an overseas cap)

[AdmiralB]

If you look at the data sheets on the Atoms, you'll see that they are not recommended for new design. They're an old product line and technology has passed them by. The reason they're large is the same - they're an old product.

I only use them when they are the sole source for a value I need.

[lastwinj]

personally, i will go with nichicon, rubycon, sanyo, or elna. the ymake the finest caps in the world, including Oscons, and black gate capacitors.

[pfrischmann]

If you look at the data sheets on the Atoms, you'll see that they are not recommended for new design. They're an old product line and technology has passed them by. The reason they're large is the same - they're an old product.

I only use them when they are the sole source for a value I need.

I've heard this before and it certainly makes sense but if you look at just about any boutique amp out there 9 out of 10 times, they will have Atoms
in them.

I'd think there must be a reason, they are certainly more expensive than most of the overseas stuff (nichikon, Xicon, Illinois, etc..

Is it possible the size (mass) is actually an advantage when it comes to ripple or lack there of ?

[Chris Scott]

The answer to this question has actually started to haunt me- why would so many seemingly knowledgeable builders use a component that is technically inferior, let alone rather difficult to integrate into a smaller format because of their larger size? I seem to recall reading in the Funk book something about the sheer amount of raw material being the deciding factor for filter caps- the bigger the cap, the better. There has to be someone out there who is privy to actual empirical testing that has been done to determine answer to these questions- anyone out there actually WORK at a cap mfg. facility?

[Blue Strat]

Mouser sure wants a lot more for the Mallory's

I can't find 220uf @ 350v anywhere (except as an overseas cap)

Yeah, for 200+uF I usually resort to IECs.

[AdmiralB]

if you look at just about any boutique amp out there 9 out of 10 times, they will have Atoms in them.

The market expects it. The interwebs say they're the best, so that's what people want.

Same with carbon comp resistors. Keen figured out years ago what they do, why, and why you only get that effect in one or two applications. But people think they need amps full of them (including Marshall clones, which is humorous since Marshalls never used carbon comps in anyplace but the rail).

[hasserl]

The market expects it. The interwebs say they're the best, so that's what people want.

Same with carbon comp resistors. Keen figured out years ago what they do, why, and why you only get that effect in one or two applications. But people think they need amps full of them (including Marshall clones, which is humorous since Marshalls never used carbon comps in anyplace but the rail).

+1!!

More internet lore!

[teleamp]

The market expects it. The interwebs say they're the best, so that's what people want.

Same with carbon comp resistors. Keen figured out years ago what they do, why, and why you only get that effect in one or two applications. But people think they need amps full of them (including Marshall clones, which is humorous since Marshalls never used carbon comps in anyplace but the rail).

+ Another 1, I built a 15 watt amp similar to a Lightning and used metal films exclusively, that amp rocked. It was my second build and I used Sprague Atoms for filter caps (monkey saw, monkey did).

http://i70.photobucket.com/albums/i115/teleamp/Lclone.jpg

[Ahoy]

I've heard this before and it certainly makes sense but if you look at just about any boutique amp out there 9 out of 10 times, they will have Atoms
in them.

I'd think there must be a reason, they are certainly more expensive than most of the overseas stuff (nichikon, Xicon, Illinois, etc..

Don't be fooled. Monkey see monkey dodo. The literature is stock full of stories about things are done a certain way because that is the way it has always been done. It does not make it the right way. So go look at the value you want and buy some from Nichicon's from Mouser or some Panasonic's from Digikey. You WILL be very pleased with the result. You can reconfigure
snap ins to make them work as well.


Ahoy

[Tuberattler]

Well, to be real I'm fairly anal about tone. I've used both the Atoms and the imports. I have yet to hear a difference in the Filtering for the power supply and board voltage supply with the big Atoms vs the imports.

When I rebuilt my '49 Deluxe I bought the Black gates on a recomendation from a seasoned tech, he told me he'd refund my money if I didn't like them or suspect they were inferior. Well, after 5 years in that amp I am super happy that I chose them.

Bottom line is that you'll have to do what you think is best. If you're convinced the Atoms are best and nothing else will do then buy them other wise enjoy an entrance into the new reality where products are based on what you hear instead of hype.

[pfrischmann]

Well, to be real I'm fairly anal about tone. I've used both the Atoms and the imports. I have yet to hear a difference in the Filtering for the power supply and board voltage supply with the big Atoms vs the imports.


When I rebuilt my '49 Deluxe I bought the Black gates on a recomendation from a seasoned tech, he told me he'd refund my money if I didn't like them or suspect they were inferior. Well, after 5 years in that amp I am super happy that I chose them.

Bottom line is that you'll have to do what you think is best. If you're convinced the Atoms are best and nothing else will do then buy them other wise enjoy an entrance into the new reality where products are based on what you hear instead of hype.

Black gates huh?

That's no joke. They are really expensive. I'm told they use something differen than the standard paste.

[CarlH]

Don't be fooled. Monkey see monkey dodo. The literature is stock full of stories about things are done a certain way because that is the way it has always been done. It does not make it the right way. So go look at the value you want and buy some from Nichicon's from Mouser or some Panasonic's from Digikey. You WILL be very pleased with the result. You can reconfigure
snap ins to make them work as well.


Ahoy

Can you get them in 500 and 600 volt? I only see 450 or less volt in Mouser. I think part of the problem is that there are not a lot of choices for 500 to 600 volt electrolitic caps.

[CarlH]

If you look at the data sheets on the Atoms, you'll see that they are not recommended for new design. They're an old product line and technology has passed them by. The reason they're large is the same - they're an old product.

I only use them when they are the sole source for a value I need.

This may be a little misleading. The reason they are not recommended for new design is probably because new design is based on the PC type circuit boards, and they have capacitors that work better for that design. I still don't see many 500 to 600 volt choices in the smaller capacitors. If you have low voltage needs, yes the newer caps may work fine. But if you need a 600 volt cap, good luck finding a cap that will work (Sprague Atoms will work in certain values). A 500 volt cap is probably risky in many circuits, so I sure would not want to drop down to 450 volt caps that I usually see in the newer caps.

[AdmiralB]

But if you need a 600 volt cap, good luck finding a cap that will work (Sprague Atoms will work in certain values).

Yes, there are a couple values in the Atom line rated at 600V. They're also about the size of a stick of dynamite.

The only application I found for them is the 20uF in old Sunn amps.

[CarlH]

But there are also very few small caps rated at 500 volts, which is really a minimum for a lot of power filter caps on many amps. I see several people post of using the newer smaller caps, but I only see them in 450 volt or less. In short, there are not many alternatives if you need 500 volt, which is what a lot of amps need.

[CarlH]

Yes, there are a couple values in the Atom line rated at 600V. They're also about the size of a stick of dynamite.


LOL I like that statement. That is very true. They won't fit in a Fender cap can.