Raytheon 12ax7a.............. Wow!! [Archive]

Mooncusser

10-14-2006, 08:36 PM

My god, man...........
Have some tubes!
Raytheon is here in Mass. I know a boatload of gentlemen who have retired from the company, or who presently still work for them.
They have an incredible business history.
I believe they have a large hand in the Patriot Missle System.
When I was a fisherman, of course most of the boats I worked on used Raytheon radar.
I know this retired fellow that told me the next time I stop by his house (I'm a plumber), he would go over all the history and details of the Raytheon vacuum tubes, because he was head of development and research for a long period of time..
It should be interesting........I'll try to post what he tells me for you guys.
Take care, all the best,
Mass

aleclee

10-14-2006, 09:36 PM

I've had some good luck with a Raytheon in V1.

My wife is actually a Raytheon employee. :p Didn't get me a discount on my toobs, tho.

mmorse

10-15-2006, 11:57 PM

Actually, I heard about these from another TGP member, TimberWolf. I picked up a couple and really haven't had time to evaluate them yet. Tried one in V1 for a few minutes in my Winfield head and was very impressed. Going to try one in my 2204 next. If I like it there, I will be hunting down a few more.

gururyan

10-15-2006, 11:59 PM

Curse you all!
I may have to see how they compare to my beloved Amperex BugleBoys.

KeithC

10-16-2006, 01:06 PM

Where are you finding these for sale?

Thanks

Joe F

10-16-2006, 01:54 PM

I heard all kinds of info - some of them made by Westinghouse. Some of the later ones were made in Asia. I have a bunch of USA made ones that seem to be Westinghouse made and I think they are great.

Timbre Wolf

10-16-2006, 02:26 PM

I can't remember who,
but some here recommended that I try out a Raytheon 12AX7A in my V1 May have been me - I've been proselytizing about these for a couple of years, now, 'cause they're soooo effin' incredible :AOK I'm not sure why more people don't start twitching and salivating (like when you say "Mullard" "Telefunken" "Bugle Boy" etc.) when they hear mention of them, but I do. I've been known to gift them to friends (and even high-profile tube vendors), just to blow their minds.

I know this retired fellow that told me the next time I stop by his house (I'm a plumber), he would go over all the history and details of the Raytheon vacuum tubes, because he was head of development and research for a long period of time..
:eek: Please thank him profusely for me - I'm truly grateful, and I salute in his general direction!! Wow - I'd love to find out some of the details that are unique to their construction (from mid '50s to 1962).

He'll probably laugh or scratch his head about guitarists using these in amps that purposely distort the signal. They were designed to provide a clear signal, not clip with musical distortion. But that's just what these do the best, and the transition from clean to distortion in these Raytheons is my favorite of any 12AX7 type (that's saying a lot!!). Here's an excerpt from my preamp tube notes:

Incredibly detailed and articulate when clean, but breaks up early (akin to RCA black-plate 12AX7, second to the RFT ECC83 in terms of early breakup) into juicy, rich hues of harmonic overtones that give it a slightly rough texture (compared to Mullard long-plate). Can be bright in some circuits. Exceptionally dynamic.
Note: rare “low noise” Raytheon 12DT7 has identical internal construction and performance to this 12AX7A, and older, black-plate/square-getter (on “stem”) 12AX7 also performs the same, though it does not have the partial 3rd mica (vaguely reminiscent of a paper clip shape) between upper mica disk and getter wire.

In my opinion, the Raytheon black-plate 12AX7A should be the primary candidate for a new manufacturer to emulate. Mass - urge your pal to document his unique knowledge, if he hasn't already - wouldn't want that to be taken to the grave.

:BEER to on-going musical reclamation of obsolete weapons technology

- Thom

mmorse

10-16-2006, 06:42 PM

I tried one in V1 of my 2204 at lunch today. I'm still VERY impressed! I didn't think anything could get me to pull a Mullard out of V1 in that amp. Well, I now have a new number one. This tube does everything a Mullard does yet stays a little more articulate when pushed and has fatter yet tight bottom end. What I mean is that it has more heft but doesn't get flabby.

As Timber Wolf said, in the wrong circuit it may be a little too bright but going through the low input with the amp set to clean and using a Keeley TS808, the tone was lush, full and smooth with all the great sassy mids Mullards are famous for. In a nutshell, it's a Mullard plus!

I'm going to try the upper input and crank the gain with no OD pedal to see how it holds up when pushed hard.

Only bad thing is I just got done collecting a bunch of Mullards. Now it looks like I have to start all over again. :jo

Timbre Wolf

10-16-2006, 06:53 PM

Only bad thing is I just got done collecting a bunch of Mullards. Now it looks like I have to start all over again. :joThat's how it starts. If you're wondering what I'm talking about, just ask Rockon1.:)

- T

kaseri

10-16-2006, 07:03 PM

I'm using a balanced Raytheon in V1 of my Bad Cat EL84 based amp & it smokes in that position. Since I don't have any more amps that use a PI I decided to use it in my Bad Cat.

rockon1

10-16-2006, 07:44 PM

That's how it starts. If you're wondering what I'm talking about, just ask Rockon1.:)

- T

ah ha haha haha ha ha ha ha........asylum is my only friend now! ha ha ha ha ha....:crazy

BTW- you see the pic of raytheons I posted above.................................Ive got twice that may now ......Im going to have to go get help soon....

Timbre Wolf

10-16-2006, 08:00 PM

The Raytheon company name was formed from two words: ray = an emanation of light, plus theo for "God" - True story!

It is only coincidental that some of us worship these bits of glass and wire that are emanations of God's light. But it does seem a fitting name, to me.

- Thom

Mooncusser

10-16-2006, 08:31 PM

Any of you fine folks want to sell or trade me a Raytheon 12AX7A?
I have one. I am using it now. I am sure i'll need another when it is time.
Let me know.
All the best,
Mass

Timbre Wolf

10-16-2006, 09:25 PM

Any of you fine folks want to sell or trade me a Raytheon 12AX7A?
I have one. I am using it now. I am sure i'll need another when it is time.
Let me know.
All the best,
Mass
They're available on eBay all the time - usually as Baldwin-labled versions. Used ones are almost always very strong.

- T

Old Tele man

10-16-2006, 09:41 PM

...FWIW, Raytheon closed down its last USA tube plant in the summer of 1986.

mmorse

10-16-2006, 11:45 PM

The guy I got my 4 from has 10 more. I asked him if he would sell them to me and he said to make him an offer. I don't need 10 more. is anybody else interested in getting some? I don't know what a fair price is for these tubes. I paid just under $20 ea. for the four I got. Not sure if that's a fair price or not. Tonewise I think it sure is. :AOK

Timbre Wolf

10-17-2006, 08:05 AM

I don't know what a fair price is for these tubes. I paid just under $20 ea. for the four I got. Not sure if that's a fair price or not. Tonewise I think it sure is. :AOK $15-$20 each seems a fair, current price for used (test new). Prices have definitely gone up in the last couple of years. Compare that with $50+ for used long-plate Mullards, it is quite a bargain price (though I value the different character of both tubes and am not suggesting they replace each other).

- T

Mooncusser

10-17-2006, 04:24 PM

$15-$20 each seems a fair, current price for used (test new). Prices have definitely gone up in the last couple of years. Compare that with $50+ for used long-plate Mullards, it is quite a bargain price (though I value the different character of both tubes and am not suggesting they replace each other).

- T

+1 Timber Wolf !!

You hit the nail on the head. They aren't going to go for the same $$ that Mullards or Telefunkens do.
Great tube though......
Take care,
Mass

rockon1

10-17-2006, 06:05 PM

$15-$20 each seems a fair, current price for used (test new). Prices have definitely gone up in the last couple of years. Compare that with $50+ for used long-plate Mullards, it is quite a bargain price (though I value the different character of both tubes and am not suggesting they replace each other).

- T

Actually that seems like a very good price if they are guaranteed to be good.(low noise,not excessively microphonic) Lets face it thats almost the same price as a new production tube. A new "Tung sol" costs about 15$

Mooncusser

10-17-2006, 06:10 PM

Ya know...I really like the Tungsol RI.
Oh, god...I am GASSING tubes! :crazy
LOL!
Peace,
Mass

Timbre Wolf

10-17-2006, 06:32 PM

Oh, god...I am GASSING tubes! :crazy As long as the getter doesn't turn white, you're probably okay :roll

Ya know...I really like the Tungsol RI.Yeah, they're my favorite new-production 12AX7. Notice the un-subtle qualifier, though.

- T

Mooncusser

10-17-2006, 08:34 PM

As long as the getter doesn't turn white, you're probably okay :roll

Yeah, they're my favorite new-production 12AX7. Notice the un-subtle qualifier, though.

- T

Who is the unsubtle qualifier?
Sorry if I'm slow on the uptake...it's been a looooooooooong day!:jo
Take care,
Mass

Old Tele man

10-17-2006, 08:58 PM

..."new"-production vs. "old" NOS

Mooncusser

10-17-2006, 09:00 PM

Thanks, OTM!!

Sparky6string

10-17-2006, 09:08 PM

I'm getting a NIB 12DT7 here pretty soon in a trade to check out. I'll let you all know what I think.

Timbre Wolf

10-18-2006, 10:47 AM

..."new"-production vs. "old" NOS Give this man a gold star!!

Timbre Wolf

10-18-2006, 10:49 AM

I'm getting a NIB 12DT7 here pretty soon in a trade to check out. I'll let you all know what I think. I'll be curious to know if you perceive any difference at all between that 12DT7, in construction and performance, vs. the 12AX7A. I did not.

- T

Sparky6string

10-18-2006, 01:01 PM

I'll be curious to know if you perceive any difference at all between that 12DT7, in construction and performance, vs. the 12AX7A. I did not.

- T

I aint got no Raytheon 12ax7A. Course you could help out. :D :o

Timbre Wolf

10-18-2006, 01:14 PM

I aint got no Raytheon 12ax7A. Course you could help out. :D :o Oh! :(

I don't have any overstock. But I've seen photos (somewhere ;)) from a guy who's got multiple lifetime's worth.

- T

rockon1

10-18-2006, 02:14 PM

Oh! :(

I don't have any overstock. But I've seen photos (somewhere ;)) from a guy who's got multiple lifetime's worth.

- T

Wonder who? lol! I guess Im still in "hoarding mode". Even though Ive got a whole bunch of them it pains me to lose them! Plus Im not sure what to charge for them. I mean if I was going to sell them as garranteed good 20$ seems more than fair.Guess if Im ever ready Ill post them.:crazy

Old Tele man

10-18-2006, 08:05 PM

...you ain't "hoarding" them!

...you're just providing "protective custody" for "wayward vacuum tubes" by "...keeping them off the street..."

Mooncusser

10-18-2006, 08:21 PM

...you ain't "hoarding" them!

...you're just providing "protective custody" for "wayward vacuum tubes" by "...keeping them off the street..."

Yeah, you tell 'em OTM..................
It would be a shame to see them all wind up in a vacuum tube correctional facility.
:crazyguy

jspax7

10-18-2006, 11:58 PM

...you ain't "hoarding" them!

...you're just providing "protective custody" for "wayward vacuum tubes" by "...keeping them off the street..."

They need a nice amp to keep them warm this winter. How 'bout mine? :)

Sparky6string

10-19-2006, 06:33 AM

Mike seems to have a pretty good price on them at $25. When I get around to it I'll pick a couple up. You're probably right though Thom about the difference between the DT7 and the AX7. The AX7 is probably just fine for us guitar guys.

Timbre Wolf

10-19-2006, 10:55 AM

Mike seems to have a pretty good price on them at $25. When I get around to it I'll pick a couple up.
I was feeling hopeful that KCA would sell these, so I could have a trusted source to refer people to. I even sent him a sample last year, to encourage him in this direction. Mike said he was selling them, last month, but when I checked, they weren't listed. Now they're listed, but it says they're out of stock. Hope he gets more stock in.

- Thom

KeithC

10-19-2006, 11:08 AM

I just got one in today from Mike. So far so good in my Rockytop JTM45. I have practice tonight so I'll give it a try.
This amp is kinda picky it seems with tubes so I guess we'll see. Right now I have an NOS set of Siemens EL34's in it too and at least at home it sounds great!

Sparky6string

10-19-2006, 11:36 AM

Now they're listed, but it says they're out of stock. Hope he gets more stock in.

- Thom

Doh! Missed that part. Oh well, back to stage one.

mmorse

10-19-2006, 12:24 PM

I've picked up 7 off the bay in the last week. I got 4 from a guy who told me he has 10 more. His ebay ID is dfbco. He ships immediately with bullet proof packing. I'll bet if you offer him $20 ea. he'd sell you a couple.

go7

10-19-2006, 06:19 PM

:AOK I put Ratheon in any V spot I can find. They are wonderfull ,but don`t let it get around or they will get very expensive.Like Mullards,thank goodness I had my stash full before the hysteria started.Now I` got my Mazdas, Ratheon, GE. and 5751. Do I have a problem with pre amp tubes?:NUTS

Mooncusser

10-19-2006, 06:24 PM

Blue Strat

10-19-2006, 07:32 PM

I was feeling hopeful that KCA would sell these, so I could have a trusted source to refer people to. I even sent him a sample last year, to encourage him in this direction. Mike said he was selling them, last month, but when I checked, they weren't listed. Now they're listed, but it says they're out of stock. Hope he gets more stock in.

- Thom

Damn, I thought I had listed these http://kcanostubes.com/content/estore_details.asp?product=478 but I guess I dropped the ball.

I've got maybe 10 new ones in stock. The ANOS ones went fast.

Mooncusser

10-19-2006, 08:28 PM

Damn, I thought I had listed these http://kcanostubes.com/content/estore_details.asp?product=478 but I guess I dropped the ball.

I've got maybe 10 new ones in stock. The ANOS ones went fast.

So I take it the black plates are the more sought after Raytheon 12AX7A's?
I have a Raytheon 12AX7A with additional script on it. This weekend, I'll open up the back of my 1959 SLP head and post it. Maybe some of you will know what it means.
Peace,
Mass

Blue Strat

10-19-2006, 09:19 PM

So I take it the black plates are the more sought after Raytheon 12AX7A's?
I have a Raytheon 12AX7A with additional script on it. This weekend, I'll open up the back of my 1959 SLP head and post it. Maybe some of you will know what it means.
Peace,
Mass

Ask TW about the blackplates, though, I thought that was what this thread was about.

kaseri

10-20-2006, 06:52 AM

So I'm using a Raytheon 12ax7 in V1 of my amp & I love how it sounds. I bought it from Mike @ KCA. Here is a link to the excact tube ---

http://kcanostubes.com/content/estore_details.asp?category=&product=42

As you can see they are out of stock. Can anyone describe how the Raytheon 12ax7 Blackplate tube differs in tone from the one I am using?

Timbre Wolf

10-20-2006, 11:11 AM

So I take it the black plates are the more sought after Raytheon 12AX7A's? So I'm using a Raytheon 12ax7 in V1 of my amp & I love how it sounds. I bought it from Mike @ KCA. Here is a link to the excact tube ---

http://kcanostubes.com/content/estore_details.asp?category=&product=42

As you can see they are out of stock. Can anyone describe how the Raytheon 12ax7 Blackplate tube differs in tone from the one I am using?
I thought we were discussing the black-plate 12AX7A, with halo-getter, made from about '59-'62. Part way through 1962, Raytheon stopped US-production as they had outsourced (don't think they used that term then, but it applies) to a new Japanese facility. The new Japanese tubes were gray-plates, and they still had the Raytheon EIA code of 280. I think they soon moved from a long gray-plate to a short gray-plate, but I admit that I haven't paid attention to those.

I don't know how the later Japanese-production tubes compare to the earlier black-plate ones. I love the black-plate ones so much, I stopped spending money on anything but those. Here's a secret about me and carborundum (the black stuff on black-plates): I always prefer it, due to more lively responsiveness/dynamics I've discovered are associated with it. As they say, once you go black, you don't come back.

I should mention that the square-getter black-plate Raytheon 12AX7, made from 1958 and earlier, perform the same as the halo-getter style (black-plate), in my experience. And I already mentioned that the low-noise 12DT7 equivalent was also of identical character, in my experience.

Hey Mike - I'm glad to see that you're stocking these, even thought the price is a bit of a shock. Like I said, I like having a reliable dealer to whom I can refer interested players. :cool:

- Thom

kaseri

10-20-2006, 11:19 AM

Timber Wolf...

I was just wondering what the tone difference was between the Blackplates & the long Greyplate 12ax7 Raytheons

Blue Strat

10-20-2006, 11:47 AM

Hey Mike - I'm glad to see that you're stocking these, even thought the price is a bit of a shock. Like I said, I like having a reliable dealer to whom I can refer interested players. :cool:

- Thom
The price is all about my cost, the IRS, business expenses, health insurance...... Besides, why would it be a shock when there's NO NOS 12AX7s under about $50 from legitimate (tax paying) dealers?

BTW, there's a period of time in there where Raytheon gray plates were made in the US. Not sure of the exact years. Some of the ones I had were US JAN.

Timbre Wolf

10-20-2006, 12:00 PM

Timber Wolf...

I was just wondering what the tone difference was between the Blackplates & the long Greyplate 12ax7 Raytheons Sorry if I didn't make it clear, above, that I haven't any experience with the gray-plate version. Maybe someone else has experience with both?

- T

Timbre Wolf

10-20-2006, 12:12 PM

health insurance...... My wife's about to give birth to our second daughter. Everything costs too much these days, but I'm grateful for my health plan.

I'm not unsympathetic to you as a businessman, Mike. Frankly, I don't know how one could really sustain a NOS tube business, so hats-off to you for your success.

From the consumer side, my shock is that I've never paid more than $9 each for these, and most of them cost me literally 1/10 of your asking price. But that was a couple of years ago, and I'm counting myself lucky.

BTW, there's a period of time in there where Raytheon gray plates were made in the US. Not sure of the exact years. Some of the ones I had were US JAN. If this is true, it had to have been in '62. I'd love to see a photo, if you could post one. I know Raytheon shifted much of their manufacturing to Japan around that time, and the tubes may have been marked "made in USA," but they might still have been made in Japan (or re-branded from a US manufacturer during the '62 transition).

Hope no-one interprets my postings as anti-Japanese, or anything else. Its just a distinction that indicates a difference in performance character, not a judgement.

- T

Blue Strat

10-20-2006, 12:22 PM

If this is true, it had to have been in '62. I'd love to see a photo, if you could post one. I know Raytheon shifted much of their manufacturing to Japan around that time, and the tubes may have been marked "made in USA," but they might still have been made in Japan (or re-branded from a US manufacturer during the '62 transition).

Hope no-one interprets my postings as anti-Japanese, or anything else. Its just a distinction that indicates a difference in performance character, not a judgement.

- T
How many new ones are you finding today from legit dealers for $6 each? I wonder wat VTV is charging. LOL. If anyone is interested, I paid a LOT more than that for mine. Add in the rejects, and the cost goes higher.

The grey plates were probably '62. There were at least 2 types that I've seen with dramatically different plate styles.

I sold the last of the grey plates that I'm aware of (hard to tell sometimes with 25000+ tubes around).

Timbre Wolf

10-20-2006, 12:49 PM

I wonder wat VTV is charging. LOL. No thanks to VTV - I'm not going to trade my newborn daughter (when she arrives) for a couple of tubes. :roll

Old Tele man

10-20-2006, 01:43 PM

No thanks to VTV - I'm not going to trade my newborn daughter (when she arrives) for a couple of tubes. :roll

...isn't VTV in California?...and, isn't that the "Can't Afford Ya" state?

Timbre Wolf

10-20-2006, 02:05 PM

isn't that the "Can't Afford Ya" state?Why, yes, I believe it is!!

- T

rockon1

10-20-2006, 02:45 PM

My wife's about to give birth to our second daughter. Everything costs too much these days, but I'm grateful for my health plan.

I'm not unsympathetic to you as a businessman, Mike. Frankly, I don't know how one could really sustain a NOS tube business, so hats-off to you for your success.

From the consumer side, my shock is that I've never paid more than $9 each for these, and most of them cost me literally 1/10 of your asking price. But that was a couple of years ago, and I'm counting myself lucky.

If this is true, it had to have been in '62. I'd love to see a photo, if you could post one. I know Raytheon shifted much of their manufacturing to Japan around that time, and the tubes may have been marked "made in USA," but they might still have been made in Japan (or re-branded from a US manufacturer during the '62 transition).

Hope no-one interprets my postings as anti-Japanese, or anything else. Its just a distinction that indicates a difference in performance character, not a judgement.

- T

FWIW- The prices Ive seen these fetching on ebay have steadily gone up. Also getting harder to find.

Timbre Wolf

10-20-2006, 03:24 PM

FWIW- The prices Ive seen these fetching on ebay have steadily gone up. Also getting harder to find. Looks like you're rich!!

And I'm rapidly becoming an outdated curmudgeon (back in my day, they were as cheap as lattes at Starbucks).

- T

rockon1

10-20-2006, 04:09 PM

Looks like you're rich!!

And I'm rapidly becoming an outdated curmudgeon (back in my day, they were as cheap as lattes at Starbucks).

- T

Guess that depends on your definition of rich! lol! At any rate the more we chatter about these beauties the more people climb on board to scoff em up! Shhhh!!! :rotflmao Hey,Id still rather pay 15-20 $ for a good old stock than a new production......... My speciality? boutique tubes in crappy amps!:rotflmao

Timbre Wolf

10-20-2006, 04:34 PM

the more we chatter about these beauties the more people climb on board to scoff em up! Shhhh!!! I'm no fool. I only opened my mouth after I acquired my stock.

Gotta wonder about the tubes I'm not talking about right now.

boutique tubes in crappy amps!:rotflmao :jo:crazy:rotflmao

rockon1

10-20-2006, 04:38 PM

Gotta wonder about the tubes I'm not talking about right now.

Spill! :rotflmao

Mooncusser

10-20-2006, 04:43 PM

Timbre Wolf

10-20-2006, 05:01 PM

Spill! :rotflmao That's on a need to know basis. And then I may have to off you.

- T

Timbre Wolf

10-20-2006, 05:03 PM

Ya know it's funny,
Being that Raytheon is a Massachusetts company, up here there are alot of old vacuum tube devices that still have alot of the Raytheons in them. That's how I get mine.
But still, if anyone wants to sell me one, let me know, or if anyone wants to trade for another preamp in the same class...I have some as well.
Peace,
Mass Mass, you've got to talk to your Raytheon contact, and fill us in on the details. I'm really looking forward to that. Just the thought of it is giving me a Pavlovian response :drool

- T

Mooncusser

10-20-2006, 05:09 PM

Mass, you've got to talk to your Raytheon contact, and fill us in on the details. I'm really looking forward to that. Just the thought of it is giving me a Pavlovian response :drool

- T

The second I get back to his house I will interrogate him..then let you all know.
I am dying to know all the juicy details about the Raytheon tube history as well.
Last time I was at his house, he was filling me in on how he used to get sent to meet with Russian engineers to agree on how to corrolate nuclear testing in the 50's without us impeding on them and visa-versa within the seperate countries engineering firms that were contracted to do so.
Alot of "behind the scenes history."
Don't worry, I won't forget you. :AOK
Peace,
Mass