Tayor ES Upgrade

[Nohj]

Hi - I have a 1998 Taylor 414CE with the Fishman Blended System. I was wondering if anyone out there had upgraded their Fishman equipped Taylor to the new ES system. I found out from Taylor that is a 498 dollar upgrade.

I am hoping to hear what the process was like - I understand the guitar has to be sent to the factory and If it was worth doing...

I welcome your comments


Thanks

[texasdave]

From a resale standpoint, probably not. If you love the guitar and you're not getting what you want out of the current electronics, maybe. I think I'd want to compare one with the ES in your normal playing environment and decide if it's really the way to go... probably your general use is gonna be the best determining factor. If you're playing solo, it's probably more of an issue than if you're playing with a group... if there are drums and a bass around, you are probably great with what you have... I have guitars with dual source setups and single transducers, and the only time the mic ever gets used is if there's not a live drum kit nearby...


... back to resale. My prelude to what I'm about to say next is to avoid anyone thinking I'm badmouthing the 400 series. I'm not. I like the 400 series. I own a 400 series. My concern is what's the resale difference in the guitar as-is and the resale with a retrofit ES system? $100? $150? Would it make more sense to sell the 414 and buy a used 600 or 800 series with ES? Maybe...

Those are my random thoughts on the discussion... I have several nice acoustics with various electronics, and generally if I'll run any of 'em through a decent preamp and tweak the EQ a bit I'm happy... I usually buy used guitars, and if it's got electronics in it, that's probably what it'll have in it for a long time...

Good discussion question, btw...

[Trandy]

Keep it the way it is...the Fishman Blender blows away the ES system. IMHO

[trivial]

My 2 cents.

I have owned a couple of Taylors with ES... it is probably redundant to state that I have sold them if you look at the word "owened" :)

Anyway, I think that it is a pretty decent sounding system if you can answer yes to one of the following questions.

1. Do you have a good sound man?
2. Does your sound man take direction well (and are you willing to teach him)?

Unfortunately, most of my sound guys had such a hard time either listening to me, or dialing in a good sound on their own that I ended up getting rid of them. (The Guitars... not the soundguys)

I will give you a suggestion though. Have you heard a K&K Pure western? That is what I use now in all my acoustics and I couldn't be happier. It is a passive Soundboard Transducer that sounds very "natural and woody". I have even seen guys get them wired up to their Fishman controls so that you have an onboard preamp.

Hope that helps a little.

.m

[Nohj]

Wow good responses guys. Really got me thinking... I hate to get rid of my Taylor - after 8 years the sounds is really blossoming. I am intrigued by the K&K tho. But for almost 5oo bucks plus shipping I could almost buy a new acoustic and install the K&K. Heck a new Taylor is almost reachable at that price - well new to me anyway. I agree w/ TIm I do like the fishman but was intriqued by the design of the ES. I mite take a different approach. Thanks for your comments!!! But has anyone actually done it i wonder!

[DualRectifier]

Definitely not worth a retrofit. I love my 514CE with ES, but my buddy has an older 514CE with the Blender, and that thing kills plugged in too.

I have peeked inside both to see how structurally the different systems are installed. That ES neck pickup is sandwiched in there real good....looks like they'll have to completely take the guitar apart to get it in there. the body sensors are no big deal, just attached to the top.

If you gotta have ES, you are much better off getting one made with ES; meaning either sell what you got and get a newer one, or just buy another one.

Once again, I love my ES, but it isn't such a huge improvement over the Blender or other good pickup/preamp systems.

[jcground]

I have a 2001 Taylor 612-CE that has the Fishman Prefix Stereo Blender piezo system in it. I know a guy who has an almost identical 612-CE that is newer and has the ES system in it. He would much prefer to have the Fishman.

I've read raves about the ES system, but most gigging musicians I know have reported trouble getting them to work well live. (Maybe they're better in the studio, but I'd prefer to park in front of a nice condenser mic in a studio if I'm recording acoustic.)

Bottom line, I considered getting the ES retrofit when they first came out because they sounded like a great upgrade; but now that they've been out for a while and I've talked to people who have them, I'm happy to have the Fishman.

[Ogre]

The Taylor Es system did not rock my world. Lots of hype, and not much substance.

[waxnsteel]

I love talking about how much I hate the ES, but in context, I can honestly say if you're going to be playing acoustic with a band, mostly basic open chords, you might be happier with ES. You'll get greater volume before feedback, and to me, the sound isn't that objectionable until you start going farther up the neck.

In an all acoustic format, I'll take a martin thinline over the ES. I don't like any magnetic pickups on acoustic guitars. My preference. Personally I'd keep the guitar as is in either format. I really like the Fishman Blender stuff (always looking for something better, and really like the K&K stuff, too), and Baggs Dual Source.

I agree though. ES was so hyped, and so many have bought the hype...
I love my Taylors so much I really wanted to believe what they said about what ES was supposed to be. It just plain isn't, but I think they could get it right if this crap system wasn't so successful.

[Iralovesguitars]

I didn't do it. I thought about it. But you have a blender preamp? Do this:
Get a K&K Pure Western Mini system. Cut the output jack off the transducer wires. Now Take your UST out, and install all 3 of the transducers on the bridgeplate. You'll probably find that you want to keep the EB transducer, as i did, and wire it directly into the blender preamp. It sounds incredible, and picks up all 6 strings VERY well. around $80 :) But make sure the remaining transducers wires are secured inside the guitar. If any one them is stronger than the other you'll probably have feedback issues going into the blender. The fishman preamp will take the input from the K&K without distortion. Only downside---if you try to mute the strings on the bridge, the pickup will pop, loudly. a minor change in playing i found for me, but overall very clean sound. i almost play without a mic unless i'm looping percussive taps, eggs, and other goodies :)

On another note: stewmac.com sells schatten soundboard transducers that look very similar to the K&K. They're about $20 each, and no output jack. You could always get 3 of them, and install a transducer one at a time if the first pickup didn't work, and still be ahead of the K&K cost, but i'm not entirely sure that they'll sound as good as the K&Ks. i may try it someday on another guitar, but it'll be a while...

[waxnsteel]

The fishman preamp will take the input from the K&K without distortion. Only downside---if you try to mute the strings on the bridge, the pickup will pop, loudly. a minor change in playing i found for me, but overall very clean sound. i almost play without a mic unless i'm looping percussive taps, eggs, and other goodies :)



Very interesting. You're saying you can disconnect the Fishman Piezo and install the K&K transducers to take it's place with a Fishman blender? Interesting. Also, I have played a K&K loaded (Martin) guitar, and I play very percussively, and didn't have popping issues. I wonder if that might be a mounting issue.

[Iralovesguitars]

Yes. both my taylors now have no UST---only the K&K pickups. After the installation of all 3 transducers i found that the DG transudcer to be the hottest, and the BE and EA transducers lacking in volume only slightly. Unfortunately though, they're all permanently glued to the bridgeplate. So, I disconnected the pickups from the preamp, with the intention of only running the EA and BE transducers, to counteract the hotter DG pickup. After i ran only the BE transducer into the preamp i found it so sound nearly perfectly balanced. It seems that one of the K&K PWmini transducers is sufficiently hot enough to go into a Fishman blender. It sounds very good and i now have no feedback resonance or balance issues. It could be an installation problem too---i've only put two of the K&Ks on, and have excellent results, but i cannot put a percussive thump on my bridge, because it seems to want to spike. Was the martin you played having the K&K's running directly to an output jack, or into a preamp? It could be the blenders reaction to a thump too...

I'd almost certainly install all 3 transucers into the guitar to see which one sounds the best, but since i play all over the neck, i need to have balance on all of them. It sounds exceptionally good with my Rane AP13 pre too, because i'm running TRS out and EQing the K&K and the internal mic seperately too.

[jbgordon]

I have a 2004 414ce that originally had the es in it. I never really found the amplified sound I was looking for. After some research I decided on the K&K sound trinity western. I installed the pickups myself with no problem and I couldnt be happier with the tone. Its an amazing system, and a very reasonable price at around $300.

[Pa'ani]

Keep it the way it is...the Fishman Blender blows away the ES system. IMHO
+1 I agree with Tim all the way.
Lots of people are complaining about the ES system alot!

[Nohj]

Im sure glad I checked here before pulling the trigger!!!!

[jspax7]

My 2 cents.

I have owned a couple of Taylors with ES... it is probably redundant to state that I have sold them if you look at the word "owened" :)

Anyway, I think that it is a pretty decent sounding system if you can answer yes to one of the following questions.

1. Do you have a good sound man?
2. Does your sound man take direction well (and are you willing to teach him)?

Unfortunately, most of my sound guys had such a hard time either listening to me, or dialing in a good sound on their own that I ended up getting rid of them. (The Guitars... not the soundguys)

I will give you a suggestion though. Have you heard a K&K Pure western? That is what I use now in all my acoustics and I couldn't be happier. It is a passive Soundboard Transducer that sounds very "natural and woody". I have even seen guys get them wired up to their Fishman controls so that you have an onboard preamp.

Hope that helps a little.

.m

I have talked to K&K, and apparently the Fishman preamp is a different impedance than the K&K (external) preamp so the tone will actually be worse running through the Fishman preamp.

If anyone out there knows how to mod the fishman to match the impedance of the K&K, I would like to know. Unfortunately K&K doesn't make an onboard replacement for the Fishman. I think they might sell a few if they did, since many K&K players are replacing Fishman systems.

[Iralovesguitars]

it may or may not be as good as running it directly into an output jack, but i already had the ust/barndoor system. in defense of the k&k---the microphone in my guitar sounds just slightly better than the K&K PWminis.
it seems to have significantly less coloration. there's so much going through my pedalboard that it really doesn't matter anymore. i do like how i can adjust the k&ks at my guitar since the eqing on the barndoor blender doesn't affect the mic in stereo mode. when you're looping it's nice to make the guitar sound differently than when the loop began. it becomes a "different" instrument. i know others that insalled the K&K PWmini into a blender well before i did and had excellent results. i love my "new" guitar :)

[unsunder]

I know this is an old post and the decision has already been made but you can't install a full ES system in a pre 2001 Taylor. You can have the body transducers installed but not the fretboard because it isn't notched out properly.

[waxnsteel]

I know this is an old post and the decision has already been made but you can't install a full ES system in a pre 2001 Taylor. You can have the body transducers installed but not the fretboard because it isn't notched out properly.

That's true. It has to have the NT neck to get the neck sensor in there. Strangely enough, I think I might like it better without the neck sensor. I have no real way of knowing, but I suspect a big part of the "playing over the neck" tone the ES has comes from the neck sensor. Will they actually install just the body transducers?

[da-boogieman]

The Taylor Es system did not rock my world. Lots of hype, and not much substance.

^ +1. Could not have said it better;)

[konavet]

Bringing up the Taylor ES on the Acoustic Guitar Forum is a lot like the Dumble/Meyer threads here. I've got a '03 W-55 with the ES and I've only had to replace it twice. And like some previous comments- it sounds OK, but not great. Lots of reliability issues, but I think they've worked a lot of that out. Bottom line- not worth it, IMHO.

[unsunder]

That's true. It has to have the NT neck to get the neck sensor in there. Strangely enough, I think I might like it better without the neck sensor. I have no real way of knowing, but I suspect a big part of the "playing over the neck" tone the ES has comes from the neck sensor. Will they actually install just the body transducers?

Yeah I called them awhile back and asked them what models they could put it in. They said all models would. Just they won't install a neck sensor in said models.

[Funky Chicken]

I bought an NOS 2002 514CE with the Blender just as ES guitars began to ship. Still happy with my decision. Most of my acoustic live work is as an opening act where the soundman is looking to get me up and running in about 45 seconds, and the ES ain't that kind of rig.
Go spend some time with a few ES guitars before you think about replacing or altering a guitar that has served you well for a long time.

[John Phillips]

I also bought an old-stock Fishman-equipped 312CE after I heard the ES. Still happy with that decision too.

To be fair, I fitted a Rare Earth soundhole pickup as well! It's very easy to do if you just want it combined with the existing system, and you can run it from the same battery. I originally did it because I thought the Fishman had cut out momentarily at a band practice, and although it only did it once I wanted an on-board backup if it did at the gig the next day, and I had the RE anyway. It turned out to be a cable problem in the end, but I left it in because the combined sound was better than either pickup alone.

And it still sounds better and more natural than the ES, IMO - despite also now having a magnetic pickup, it doesn't have that same metallic tone high up on the single strings.

[Vaijem777]

I've got an older 814CE with the Blender and have also played similar guitars with the ES. I'd take the Blender system hands-down over the ES, but like all things guitar-related, your mileage may vary. If it ain't broke, don't fix it. If it is broke, ditch it and buy a new one :)

[kwaves99]

K+K rocks my world!

By far the best pickup system in my 96 814ce ever........this after the following (in order) stock Fishman Acoustic Matrix UST (quack quack went the piezo) then a beautiful sounding but way underpowered PUTW# 27.........next a 1st gen. Baggs MI (better sound but not exactly what I was looking for).

Now I have the K+K Power Pure..a combo of a full sized Pure western plus a 2nd generation UST K+K piezo plus a built in preamp (In the guitar).

finally, the sounds and tones I've been looking for.