61 Fender Brown amps or Swart or BF deluxe Please help

[Budokahn]

Hey all I am in a dilema here. The Fenderish amps I currently own

71 Super Reverb
Victoria Bassman

I love the sound of both, but they are larger and louder than always practical.
I am looking for a really swampy small combo with Tremelo or Reverb and Tremelo.
I am currently torn as i have the ability to purchase one of the following and they are all about the same price. and I cant decide. I really like the old school type trems kind of like the Victoria Reverberato.
I have found a
61 Deluxe (brown) all original and like new with the cover and original pedal and speaker.
or
61 Pro-Amp (brown) 1x15 decent condition all original
or a Swart Atomic Space Tone
I will be using Single coils, P-90s, and vintage output HBs and want and amp that is a beuty with all.
I have played both 61's and that only made it harder to decide. I have never played the Swart but have heard good things.
Do I
a.)go with the perfectly mint 61 deluxe as it sounds great and is perfect shape 6v6
b.) go 6l6 and the 61 Pro-Amp that is rough but sounds great
C.) try something new and go Swart (I am a little worried the Swart would be a little under powered and may not retain value , Vintage Fenders always seem to hold or appreciate:), don get me wrong I want a player.

It will be used in the studio but I mainly want a small amp to play out with that still has a pretty big sound even when unmiked (not loud just full) but manageble weight, size, and volume,

The vintage amps have both been gone through and neither would require additional money to a tech out of the gate,

Which vintage amp choice is the no brainer?
is there a no brainer decision here?
I enjoy all feedback and appreciate any ones experience with these amps.

Thanks!

[LeftyLang]

For an investment I would buy the 61 Deluxe.
For a player I would get your hands on the Swart AST. The touch sensitivity of this amp is awesome and the tones are some of the best for small to medium clubs IMO.

[billyguitar]

The Pro will be a loud amp. With a good od pedal it would be the most versatile. You could jazz gig with one of those, too. deluxes are great but can sound thin and you would definitely want to swap the speaker out to gig it.

[tejastubes]

I went for the brown Super amp,,,more headroom than a deluxe which I need for my gigs. If you need headroom go for the pro, if you don't then the deluxe is your boy! Joshua

[mrbungel]

Pro

[GuitarsFromMars]

pro +1

[Wakarusa]

If the Pro is the 6G5-A circuit snap it up. If the 6G5 (no 'A'), go for the Princeton or wait for a 6G4-A Super to surface.

As you've probably discovered, the brown Fenders are tonally about halfway between the tweeds and blackfaces -- but for "swampy", there is no substitute for the 2.5 tube tremolo in the brown 'A' circuits.

[Budokahn]

How do you tell the difference between the 6G5 is it labeled on the amp somewhere
I want volume but I want portability as well.

[Budokahn]

What is a reasonable price on one of these brown Fenders the ones I am looking at are about 1200 for the deluxe and 1000 for the pro, is that a good price great price or I can do better type of price.

[Unburst]

You can't go wrong with any of them, but if you want swampy I'd go for the Swart.

[opdev]

I would have said Swart last week. However, I just got a Brown Pricetond and I am in love. Amazing trem and a great sound.

Well, I do always use a little reverb with it so maybe the SWART.

All I do know is BROWN is my new favorite vintage Fender color.

[Budokahn]

hmm Is the Swart pretty versatile? How is the volume I have a Goltone 15 watt that is really loud but I have played 20 watts that there is no volume and breaks up way to soon. Does the swart have any clean headroom if you were playing a small room? Do you own one? Tell me more.
Thanks

[mrbungel]

Circuit is specified on the tube chart.

[Wakarusa]

Circuit is specified on the tube chart.

And if the tube chart is missing or unreadable the best clue is that the 6G5 has 5 preamp tubes while the 6G5-A has 6 preamp tubes.

[Brien]

I played a Brown Deluxe about 15 years ago-I'll never forget it. I'd buy that.

[GAT]

I have a '64 Brown Princeton, very cool. I have had a Swart and currently have a Swart head on the way. They are both different. The Princeton is too underpowered for a gig, but for around the house they are great.

[humbucking]

if you pass on the brown Fenders, let me know where they are! I will take them both! mtamposi@excite.com

[smiert spionam]

Those are both very fair prices, if they're in good shape electronically. And yes, they'll continue to appreciate, unlike the Swart (which I've admittedly never played, but always heard good things about).

Brown is the way to go. I've got a '61 Vibrolux and a '62 Princeton, and they're both amazing. Very similar tonally, but obviously the Vibrolux is beefier all around, and holds together in the bass much more. The Princeton is very much in the tweedy 6v6 camp. Both have bias vary trem, as does the Deluxe -- different from the harmonic vibrato on the Pro/Super/Concert, but very nice (and head and shoulders above the BF-style roach).

The brown Deluxe will be closer to the Princeton -- rawer, great creamy overdrive. Personally, I'd go for the Pro, but you can't go wrong either way.

Buy them both!!

[bluesjuke]

Brown Deluxe= Swampy to me.

[Budokahn]

great help guys keep it coming I have always stuck with the BF, SF and tweed style stuff the Brown is a new world for me. Do you miss no reverb on these amps much?

[bluesjuke]

Not at all.
When an amp sounds better than most you don't miss the reverb.
My tweed Deluxe does just fine without it.

[mad dog]

I'm curious about the SWART and brown deluxe, more curious about amps in the next wattage range up. That brown Pro would certainly do it for me. Best of all if you can find one is the Brown Super. If you're looking for a 20 watt 6v6 sound, then the brown deluxe and SWART would be slugging it out for your affections. In that case, I'd try the SWART.

[hunter]

As always it depends on what you like and also it depends on how loud you play. The brown Fenders have a lot of fans. I am not one. I owned a 64 Princeton (6G2 scheme, white knob, BF cosmetics) and a 62 Deluxe. Soundwise they were both good examples, as in nothing was broken or in bad shape. I gigged em both a fair amount. I didn't care for either amp whan played in the clean range which is where I spend a lot of time.

Clean, the deluxe always seemed kinda thick and a little congested with a lot of mids . Also a little stiff too. I did not like it at all when recording clean parts. Again, the honk did not fit the parts I needed to track and there was very little sparkle. Dial up the tone and the amp got strident.

Turned up LOUD the amp was a different story. If you like to crank it and run in the crunch zone as a rhythm sound adding volume or boot for solo, a brown deluxe can be fun. For classic rock kinda stuff, which I don't really do, I think it would probably work well. The lack of a clean sound that worked for me was the end of that amp. BTW in an attempt to get the amp to work for me, I experimented with several speakers and never found satisfaction.

The Princeton reminded me a lot of an old Showman I used to gig. Pretty stiff when clean but not nearly as thick as the Deluxe (which was a good thing). Unfortunately I found the slightly driven to overdriven sound (even with pedals) to be too raspy for my taste. Nice size and weight rig for small clubs. Decent clean sound but nothing really great to my ear.

As a point of reference, I have a SF Deluxe that I preferred to both brown amps. And to demonstrate I don't hae a strong bias to BF/SF voicing, I also have a Vicky tweed deluxe clone that I also prefered. Given that, I got to the point that I would only take the brown amps out because I had them and felt like I had too, so I let them go to someone that could appreciate them more.

As I said, it depends on what you like and also it depends on how loud you play.

hunter

[LeftyLang]

More Swart AST info....
http://www.steelbender.com/spotlightswart.html

[Budokahn]

Thanks leftylang I did check that out there is no doubt It looks cool is light and portable and the reverb and trem sound great. It is so hard to choose with out playing one first.

[johneeeveee]

If you dig tremolo, the tube trem on the Swart is amaaaaaazing - jv

[Budokahn]

Hey Wakarusa so if it is not a 6G5-A circuit would you walk on it and if so why ?

[Budokahn]

thanks hunter for the detailed description

[Wakarusa]

great help guys keep it coming I have always stuck with the BF, SF and tweed style stuff the Brown is a new world for me. Do you miss no reverb on these amps much?
If there's a fire in the shop, the '62 Super is the first amp I'd grab on the way out the door (and I've a fair number of amps). I've long held that the Browns are the red-headed stepchild of the Fender line. I don't miss the reverb, but you can always get it with a pedal or one of the 6G15 Reverb units down the road (or just play in really large spaces ;)).

[bluesjuke]

For reverb I use an Alesis Nanoverb that is not much bigger than a pedal- works great with all of my amps none of whichhave reverb except the Blues Jr.

Wakarusa ,What is the 6G15?

[Wakarusa]

Hey Wakarusa so if it is not a 6G5-A circuit would you walk on it and if so why ?
There are three different tremolo circuits used in the brown Fenders that I'm aware of. Most use a simple bias-vary tremolo -- same thing you find in tweed era tremolo circuits and both black and silver face Princeton designs. Bias-vary is nice and smooth (beats hell out of a trem-roach LDR setup as found in most blackface) but also has some reliability issues (the intensity pot is in the power tube bias supply -- dirty pot = red plates).

Next up is the first attempt at a more "harmonic" trem the "non-A" or "2 tube" tremolo. Without going into gory detail, I'd almost take the blackface trem-roach trem over this one.

Last is the "A" or "2-1/2" tube "harmonic" trem found in the Pro, Concert, Super, etc. This one is just magical. You don't really see it done any more because it takes 5 triodes and about 24 sq. in. of circuit board to do. Fender also holds a patent on the circuit, but I think it has expired.

The basic magic of the "A" trem is that the low frequency oscillator is driven through a phase inverter (so you get two LFO signals 180 degrees out of phase with each other). The input has a frequency divider that then mixes the two LFO signals separately with the high & low frequency components of the input signal. The result is that the high and low frequency bits umm... tremulate? out of phase with each other giving an almost rotational effect (think Leslie or Roto-vibe).

I love this tone. So much so that I'm makin' a pedal that does the same trick in solid state (so it will fit in about 6 sq. in. -- if the stinkin' compander chips ever show up from my supplier :puh). If the amps are available for audition, and the Pro is the "A" circuit, go back and play with the tremolo :)

[musicofanatic5]

Bluesjuke:the 6G15 is the Fender outboard reverb lunchbox thing. I got the nanoverb and did not care for the sound with a gtr amp. Too digital. I use it for PA or recording. I use the Digitech reverb pedal (when my 6G15 is uncooperative). The "spring" setting on it is the best sounding digital to my ears.
My input is the Pro (depending on output tubes and spkr) is too clean an amp to use w/out an od pedal. Heavy, too. My fav brown is the Vibrolux. A certain publication did an article recently saying how the Vibrolux is the coolest amp, and prices on these immediately increased 100%. One way around this is the brown panel Tremolux head. Use as is with a separate cab, or build the chassis into a combo cab with the spkr configuation of choice. My favorite thing about brown panel amps is the tone stack. Moving the bass or treble controls one notch actually has an effect on the sound, compared to blackface tone controls.
________
Toyota Motor North America specifications (http://www.toyota-wiki.com/wiki/Toyota_Motor_North_America)

[bluesjuke]

Thanks- guess I should have known that since I've owned a couple!

[Budokahn]

Well I just got the Pro-Amp it is the A circuit with 6 preamp tubes. Ill take pics and post them. to get some feedback. I may still get the Deluxe and keep the one that I like the best after spending some time with both.
I chose the Pro-amp as I love the Victoria reverberato and the Pro is the same ciruit type from what you all have described. Ill post more later.
Thanks.

[ricoh]

I have a 1960 browm super amp. That tremelo is the definition of swampy

[Wakarusa]

I chose the Pro-amp as I love the Victoria reverberato and the Pro is the same ciruit type from what you all have described. Ill post more later.
Thanks.
Don't hold me to this, but...

There's a circuit that's been out there for a while that combines reverb and tremolo in a 6G15 Reverb-style cabinet. Weber sells a chassis for it called the "ReVibe" -- which is what I think the original circuit designer called it too (feel free to google at will and correct my many errors).

Anyhow, I would suspect that the Reverberato is (essentially) the same circuit as the ReVibe. The original 6G15 Reverb has both a wet and dry path. The ReVibe installs a tremolo circuit in what used to be the dry path.

And, here's the kicker, it's the 2 tube brown tremolo. If memory serves, based on the 5G13 Vibrasonic.

For the completeness of the thing -- the 2 tube (non-A) circuit does the out-of-phase-rotational-swirly-swamp-throb trick too, it just doesn't do it (IMHO) as nicely or as smoothly as the later circuit.

[opdev]

I just got a Reverberato and it's flippin amazing. However, the trem is a bit "pretty" when you crank it.

I jyst got a Brown Princton and the bia trem seems a little swampier to me.

[Budokahn]

cool info well I should be getting the Delux this week and it is the bias trem so I can see how they compare I have been thinking of buying that revibe kit and having my amp tech build it for me. Has anyone built it.

[Wakarusa]

cool info well I should be getting the Delux this week and it is the bias trem so I can see how they compare I have been thinking of buying that revibe kit and having my amp tech build it for me. Has anyone built it.

Dain-bramaged me.. just noticed where you're from. Ever wander up North?

The ReVibe circuit is okay sounding (I'll stop with the 2 vs 2.5 tube stuff), though the only Weber part I'd use is the chassis.

[Budokahn]

I just moved out here from LA I am go to Fort Wayne and Chicago every so often. I wish I could find a Revibe or Reverberato type effect with out the huge price. I would really like a quality reverb but I already have Fulltone TTE and anothe box is just to much to lug around, oh yeah I have been playing the Pro-Amp all night and it is sick but it seems like I have to turn up to 7 to get it at a playable volume in a small room it may have a problem as I feel it should be plenty loud at 2-4 like a deluxe.
but when I get it to 7 it sounds sweet i am really diggin the clean and break up, and trem. Cool amp if I can get it just a tad louder.
not even with a band I am just picking it in the living room and have to get it to 6-or 7 before I can really hear it.
hmmm

[Wakarusa]

LA to Indy, eh? Who'd you make angry?

The amp should be tearing you up long before you get anywhere near 7 on the volume. Could be any number of things (tubes, speaker, caps, random gremlins) but it definitely needs a run through the shop.

I'm not supposed to pimp my stuff in the general forums, but I ought to have the last of the kinks worked out in a pedal that does the brown trem in a few weeks. You might consider something like that instead of the reverberato/revibe. I'm making it for exactly the reasons you mention -- tube units are too big and too expensive. Last time I checked you'll drop $400+ on just the parts for one of the tube units.

[Budokahn]

I actually really like it out here. I was surprised I chose this spot to relocate my offices to. I would like to check that pedal out I will hold off on getting a fulltone Trem if you want to let me beta test it for yor:)
I appreciate all your advice on the subject.
Talk to ya soon.

[Redrum]

You want swampy goodness in a light, portable package with tube tremolo and verb? Something you can still carry to smaller gigs and rooms but still cut through? Maybe with a footswitch for turning both the verb and trem on and off?

You might want to consider the Swart Atomic Space Tone 1x12 Combo. It really is an amazing amp, HOWEVER, it IS NOT A Fender sound. If you a Fender Brownie get it. If you want something a little differently flavored with incredible touch sensitivity and sound dispersion, by all means check out a 1x12 Swart.

These amps may not be everyone's cup of tea, but they sure are a wonderful sounding amp and they're not a Fender clone, which is an important distinction. The Swart is a different animal altogether. I love mine and find it to be the perfect grab and go combo, in fact, it buckles right into the passenger seat no problem. Swapping rectifier tubes makes a huge difference in the sag and early breakup. 5Y3's give less headroom, earlier breakup and more of a deluxe vibe. On the other end of the spectrum, using a GZ34 greatly increases clean headroom and provides a faster attack. I find the 5U4 a good comprimise, but everyone's needs are different.

The Swart website has some great sound samples by Greg V. if your interested. Same with the Steelbender site as well.

[Peppy]

You want swampy goodness in a light, portable package with tube tremolo and verb? Something you can still carry to smaller gigs and rooms but still cut through? Maybe with a footswitch for turning both the verb and trem on and off?

You might want to consider the Swart Atomic Space Tone 1x12 Combo.

Swapping rectifier tubes makes a huge difference in the sag and early breakup. 5Y3's give less headroom, earlier breakup and more of a deluxe vibe. On the other end of the spectrum, using a GZ34 greatly increases clean headroom and provides a faster attack. I find the 5U4 a good comprimise, but everyone's needs are different.



Have you gigged with another guitar player and if so, how does the Swart hold up clean-wise? Type of guitar you use and do you mic it?

The rectifer suggestion is a good one...which did they ship with your amp?

Thanks.

[Keith Free]

My '62 Deluxe is by far the best sounding amp I own. Sounds better than my Matchless Clubman, my Chieftain, and the Maz Jr.
It does everything from Country to Black Crowes type Rock n Roll just running straight into the amp with no pedals.
This is the main amp I gig with, plenty headroom for most rooms.
Killer Tremelo.
I've had many offers to sell this amp but this thing is going with me to my grave.
All that said I don't think you will be dissapointed.

[guitrr]

Swart. They ooze swamp. Swamp ooze.

[billyguitar]

I have one of the Brown Supers. That trem/vib sounds almost like a Univibe! For playing without trem I feel the normal channel actually sounds much better. To my ears it sounds like a louder Dr Z Z28. It may just be my amp.