Bridge pin materials- Make a difference?

[EataPeach]

I just put in some ebony pins . My acoustic had plastic ones before...

I dont know if its wishful thinking ,but I swear the tone has more 'punch' to it ,and the bass seems more distinct now....

Experiences/Thoughts???

Thanks all

[riffmeister]

Did you change strings when you put in the new pins?

[tbp0701]

I did and thought the same thing on an old Gibson B-25, but I also changed strings which had been on before my having to spend a few months in a hospital.

[EataPeach]

I had just put strings on about a week ago.So I did have enough time to be familiar with the new "new " sound.

[hunter]

If you cruise over to the Unofficial Martin Guitar Forum and look around, you'll see that this is a common question/debate/discussion. I've never changed pins on a guitar with any intention other than replacing old worn out plastic ones with new plastic ones. I guess I can't give a qualified opinion. Lots of folks do hear a difference on the UMGF.

hunter

[tbp0701]

In my case the plastic pins were pretty worn, the ebonys were $6 for the set, so I figured I'd give them a try. I've seen where people will pay much higher prices for other pins, like brass, bone and even ivory, though.

[EataPeach]

Thanks guys...I changed them out of curiousity.I got the ebony pins with abolone dots just to give my 214 a little understated sparkle ...I get them at cost too...
After playing some more I have to say there IS a slight difference.As I said earlier,a bit more punch it seems.

Anyway...Thansk for the info..Back to playing now : )

[Bryan T]

I'd change on pin at a time and listen for differences. Different pins certainly can sound different, but whether it is better or not is up to the listener. My own experience was with a Larrivee Parlor guitar. My guitar tech suggested I try camel bone in place of the plastic pins. It definitely changed the sound. It made the guitar brigher, which was the last thing that that guitar needed. I put the stock plastic pins back in.

Bryan

[davess23]

My personal suspicion is that the bridge pin thing is something of a crock, although I have guitar buddies who swear otherwise and have spent serious money (or foolish money, depending on your point of view) on exotic pin sets.

I like plain, middle-of-the-road pins in my acoustics: I believe most of mine are made from ebony. While I can sometimes detect subtle differences if a friend insists that I try fossil ivory or whatever, the fact is that 99.9% of the time the pin change is accompanied by a string change, which in itself is pretty much guaranteed to cause a difference in the guitar's response. A few days later, the strings are played in and the guitar sounds pretty much the way it always has...unless I really, really try to hear the difference, of course. We're all good self-deceivers.

FWIW, all 3 of my acoustic guitars are high-end smallbodied instruments that were chosen for their suitability for fingerstyle work: in other words, the very ones that are supposed to benefit most from the pricey pin swaps.

Edited to add: Okay, upgrading from el cheapo plastic to ebony pins may make a real difference. I'm just skeptical of the gains in going from perfectly good ebony to some godawful expensive mammoth ivory. I know money talks, but that was about $200 that didn't say anything much to me.

[blueguitar]

Uh, let's see, plastic is an insulator correct? Maybe there is something happening with the vibrations passing through a dense ebony bridge pin. Don't know, I just like to follow the logic.

[MichaelK]

Maybe there is something happening with the vibrations passing through a dense ebony bridge pin. Don't know, I just like to follow the logic.

Here's an experiment you can try at home:

(1) Rest the guitar flat on its back, on your lap or a workbench.

(2) Put a finger or a couple of fingers of your right hand (left if you're lefty) just above (but not on) the strings between the bridge saddle and the bridge pins.

(3) Strum the open strings with your other hand as loud as you like.

(4) Lower your R. hand gently till your fingers touch the strings there. They should not touch any other part of the guitar or strings. Don't touch the bridge saddle itself nor any part of the top. You can touch the bridge pins somewhat if you like.

(5) Do you feel the strings vibrating there?

Neither do I.

But if you're unconvinced and you still think you hear a difference when changing bridge pins (said difference often directly proportional to the amount of money already spent on them)... then enjoy them.

I have a limited supply of NOS 1960s waxed kazoo paper for sale, $45/yard. Works best on fossilized ivory combs – AWESOME tone!! Email me.

[MichaelK]

P.S. - I've switched bridge pins to ebony on guitars that came with plastic because I like the aesthetics of wood instead of plastic. That's all. If there is any audible difference I can't hear it.

[jyee]

i've changed plastic pins to ebony - the change was mostly cosmetic and i don't recall any significant sound difference... at least nothing as dramatic as changing the plastic saddle for a bone saddle.

i've also changed plastic and wood pins to brass pins - there is a change in sound with brass. the thing with brass is that there is a significant weight/mass difference... and while michaelk's vibration "experiement" holds true for pins that are the same mass, changing the weight of pins changes the mass distribution of the top... so that will affect sound. a negative example would be to put a bunch of vinyl stickers on the top of your guitar to deaden it.

the sound won't change much in regards to hardness of pins, because the pins exist to simply hold the end of the string and the vibration transfer is supposed to happen at the saddle. the sound will change if the pins are changed to affect the larger environment (that is the soundboard).

[MichaelK]

while michaelk's vibration "experiement" holds true for pins that are the same mass, changing the weight of pins changes the mass distribution of the top... so that will affect sound.

I can see how that's possible... though I'd have to hear for myself before I'd agree it's true.

[Lazy J]

This is a really old post, but I will see if anyone is reading...
The 'tone' is subjective to personal preference, but here is what I found when I repeated the steps that MichaelK listed above:
a) Strumming the open strings with the 'stock' plastic strings, it sustains for almost 9 seconds before I can't hear it anymore.
b) Same strings, but with titanium bridge pins (TiSonix, not those fake JelliFish things) it rings for a little over 11 seconds before I can't hear it anymore.

I know it isn't scientific, but it is the same guitar, same strings and same ears and there is a measurable difference - not just preference or style differences.

Lazy J

[Lawn Jockey]

'stock' plastic strings

Oh, do tell.

Mine are 'stock' steel strings.

[Lazy J]

Ooops! Mental-Typo...

PINS not Strings!

[in a little row]

This subject pops up all the time...ill resist the temptation to copy and paste

I have always felt less plastic/more wood is the way to go in the quest for tonal perfection...i firmly believe that going to a denser, more organic material makes a difference, i prefer ebony, but i like horn

the real thing to consider is fit and structural concerns, plastic gets warped and brittle over time, leading to many bridge plate issues down the road

[bunuel]

Good wood or horn pins make a positive difference on every axe I've tried 'em on from my crappy travel guitar to my '70s Guild F-412. Altho I was initially very skeptical about the pins, I'm not anymore. Whether it's a good or bad axe, they tend to improve clarity, volume & punch.
L. Cragg, guitarist & long time guitar tech for N.Young & Santana, in the Sep. '06 issue of ToneQuest, also swears by em, strongly recommending the use of ebony/buffalo horn pins. It's possible the guy & N. young might know something about acoustic tone, o' course some others opine that they know better.
Let yr own ears decide!

[Lawn Jockey]

Ooops! Mental-Typo...

PINS not Strings!

I was funnin' ya! :dude

Welcome to TGP. :dude

Pins *can* make a difference in tone. Between the pins, saddle, and nut......the saddle makes the most difference IMHO. This has been my experience.

[RustyAxe]

I just put in some ebony pins . My acoustic had plastic ones before...I dont know if its wishful thinking ,but I swear the tone has more 'punch' to it ,and the bass seems more distinct now....Experiences/Thoughts???

Many claim to hear a difference, but I sure don't. And neither, I suspect, would those who hear me play. It seems to be counterintuitive that adding more mass (weight) to the bridge would result in better and louder tone.

I wonder if the difference is the material or is it that the new pins just fit better ...

[PerfectStranger]

I've changed all of my acoustics to bone or horn bridge pins. I think there is a small improvement in sound and a huge improvement to looks!

[MichaelK]

I know it isn't scientific, but... there is a measurable difference

Measureable, huh? How did you measure your strumming? Is it possible you strummed 2/9ths harder the second time than the first time?

I don't know about you, but I couldn't strum exactly the same twice in a row if my life depended on it. The only guy I know who can is Pat Bergeson.

By the way, what I suggested had nothing to do with listening to how long the note sustains. Try reading it again.

I mean look at this nonsense... we're talking about something so microscopic that true believers have to rely on the opinions of experts, or a faith-based philosophy that their pin material should sound better according to the divine nature of such things.

Anyway, I'm retiring from this miserable discussion for at LEAST another 2 years, G-d willing and the creek don't rise.

[solitaire]

I like the Willy Porter treatment with ebony for the treble strings and bone for the bass strings.

[David Collins]

I use hand blown glass pins filled with mercury. They're alright when they're cold, but man, once you warm those things up a bit the guitar just sings! They're not quite as nice as the old lead/uranium alloy I used before, but I had to switch when my picking hand started turning funny colors.

[bunuel]

Measureable, huh? How did you measure your strumming? Is it possible you strummed 2/9ths harder the second time than the first time?

I don't know about you, but I couldn't strum exactly the same twice in a row if my life depended on it. The only guy I know who can is Pat Bergeson.

By the way, what I suggested had nothing to do with listening to how long the note sustains. Try reading it again.

I mean look at this nonsense... we're talking about something so microscopic that true believers have to rely on the opinions of experts, or a faith-based philosophy that their pin material should sound better according to the divine nature of such things.

Anyway, I'm retiring from this miserable discussion for at LEAST another 2 years, G-d willing and the creek don't rise.

Back at ya mate--Did you measure the vibration between the saddle and pins, as you mentioned in your previous post, or just put your highly subjective biased towards non-belief hand on it? Try this experiment if you think the area between the saddle and the pins doesn't matter--cut off all the strings there & see if you hear a difference.

[PerfectStranger]

It's odd how some people think that only their opinion matters and is right. Personally, I think if someone wants to do something with their own property....have at it. It you think it makes the guitar sound better....have at it. If you think it make the guitar look better....then have at it. I'm not stupid enough to think that my opinion is the only right one...but if you want to play MY guitars you'll play them the way I have them set up.

[MichaelK]

Try this experiment if you think the area between the saddle and the pins doesn't matter--cut off all the strings there & see if you hear a difference.

(bold emphasis mine)

How about you try this experiment: read for comprehension.

[chickenbackside]

Here's a copy and paste of a thread I started in a local guitar forum that's relevant:


Hi folks.

I was very curious about all the hype circling the tonal differences that bridge pins make. So I decided to order some and try it out for myself and document it in a way that is easy for other people to hear the differences, if any, for themselves.

So here goes...

I ordered 3 sets of bridge pins from one of our G4C forumers, mokster. Bleached ox bone, black buffalo horn and amber buffalo horn. I transfered $141 to mokster and the pins arrived 2 days later. Great transaction.

The envelope
http://i91.photobucket.com/albums/k307/chickenbackside1972/Envelope.jpg




The bubble wrapped contents, which include the pins and 2 pieces of sandpaper. Mokster is kind enough to send an extra pin in each material, just in case something screws up.
http://i91.photobucket.com/albums/k307/chickenbackside1972/Contents1.jpg
http://i91.photobucket.com/albums/k307/chickenbackside1972/Contents2.jpg




Ok, which guitar shall I use as the guinea pig? I decided on my Avalon A201E. Firstly it comes with plastic bridge pins, which I think should be the most relevant, as people with plastic pins on their guitars are the most likely people who would go for alternate pin material. Secondly, the Avalon has quite a distinct "mid-sy" voice, so it should be easier to perceive tonal changes than with something like a dreadnought.

This grand auditorium shaped guitar has a solid red cedar top and solid rosewood sides/back.
http://i91.photobucket.com/albums/k307/chickenbackside1972/Avalon.jpg




Firstly, here's a few pictures of the pins installed.

Original plastic
http://i91.photobucket.com/albums/k307/chickenbackside1972/OriginalPins.jpg




Bleached ox bone
http://i91.photobucket.com/albums/k307/chickenbackside1972/BonePins.jpg




Black buffalo horn
http://i91.photobucket.com/albums/k307/chickenbackside1972/BlackHorn.jpg




Amber buffalo horn
http://i91.photobucket.com/albums/k307/chickenbackside1972/AmberHorn.jpg




Although the bone/horn pins appear much larger than the original plastic pins, they fit with no issues at all.
http://i91.photobucket.com/albums/k307/chickenbackside1972/SizeDiff.jpg




Now, to the signal chain.

The guitar is mic'd with a Mojave MA-200 tube condenser mic.
http://i91.photobucket.com/albums/k307/chickenbackside1972/Mojave.jpg




The signal then goes to a Vintech X73i class A preamp. For those of you who know, this a Neve 1073 clone.
http://i91.photobucket.com/albums/k307/chickenbackside1972/X73i.jpg




No EQ of any sort is applied ti the microphone signal. You can see that it's switched off.
http://i91.photobucket.com/albums/k307/chickenbackside1972/NoEQ.jpg




After the preamp, I chose to use a Tube-Tech CL-1B tube compressor to control levels. You can see the settings for yourself.
http://i91.photobucket.com/albums/k307/chickenbackside1972/CL-1B.jpg




The compressed signal then goes into an Apogee Rosetta analogue to digital converter. Conversion resolution is 24 bit, 48 khz. Higher than audio CD resolution.
http://i91.photobucket.com/albums/k307/chickenbackside1972/Rosetta.jpg




Recording software is Logic 7 Pro. No effects of any sort is added to any of the recordings. What you hear is what you get when you play the guitar acoustically.
http://i91.photobucket.com/albums/k307/chickenbackside1972/Logic.jpg




Microphone XLR and patch cables are Mogami.




The music material starts off with 2 long chords, D and G/D in drop D tuning. Each chord is held until the sustain almost dies out, so you can compare the amount of sustain yoursleves.

It then goes into a fingerstyle/strum with nails musical passage that I made up for the specific purpose of bringing into focus a guitar's ability to resonate. Please forgive the crappy playing as it's all one take. It should not affect this exercise though.

The full resolution AIFF audio files are then compressed into 128kpbs MP3 files for faster download times. If you require full resolution files, just PM me.

Here's the how the guitar sounds like with its original plastic pins:
http://homepage.mac.com/adam.madmusic/FileSharing126.html


I know the buffalo horn pins should sound the same whether they're black or amber, but just for fun, I recorded them separately.

For now, I shall not reveal the correlating pin material/colour of these audio files. Feel free to make guesses. When the time is ripe, I shall reveal everything.

Here are the rest of the 3 files representing, IN NO PARTICULAR ORDER, black buffalo horn pins, amber buffalo horn pins and bleached ox bone pins:
http://homepage.mac.com/adam.madmusic/FileSharing127.html


Have fun...

[MichaelK]

Here's a copy and paste of a thread I started in a local guitar forum that's relevant:

WOW... you, um... have a lot of free time, I guess? ;)

I downloaded the files and will listen when I have a chance to move them over to my studio computer.

Of course, it's pretty difficult to replicate the exact relative position of the guitar to the mic for each take, especially so after getting up and doing something like changing out bridge pins. A really small change in position can make a whole lot of difference in level and tone. Nonetheless, after all that effort you went through, I will definitely listen.

Very nice gear, by the way. C-12, CL-1B, Distressor, Vintech... impressive!

[chickenbackside]

Haha. The pain was detuning and changing out the pins and tuning the guitar back up. Otherwise, it took no time at all to record the clips.

The reason I did it was cos I was curious myself. I'm a music arranger by trade and tonal variety is always on my agenda. Especially if it incurs minimal financial outlay. So bone/horn pins are one of those cheap and easy things you can do to tweak an acoustic guitar to taste. Instead of reaching out to tweak the EQ on my preamp or whatever, I'd rather tweak the source to get as close as I can to what I need. I must admit, I'm a real skeptic. I'm one of those people who thinks that tone is in the fingers and you can make anything sound good if you're good enough a player. All this within certain basic parameters like playing guitars that stay in tune for example.

You are right in saying that it's not very accurate. It's really not meant to be scientific, but more of a general picture. If you can hardly hear a difference with this test, then it's all snake oil. But if you can, perhaps these are little delicate tools that one can employ to adjust the way an acoustic guitar sounds.

[PerfectStranger]

dang, now I want to know the results. Let's have them...

[chickenbackside]

Sure. Why not.

Avalon 1 = BONE

Avalon 2 = BLACK HORN

Avalon 3 = AMBER HORN

[David Collins]

I'm not keen on retyping another debate on another forum about this, but if you're interested in a long read....

http://theunofficialmartinguitarforum.yuku.com/topic/69377

Bridge pins, bridge pins, and more bridge pins. Everything from taper to proper slotting, to tonal effects to which are better with red or white wine. Lot's of opinions from lots of different points of view (of course mine are the right ones ;)).

[MichaelK]

I'm one of those people who thinks that tone is in the fingers and you can make anything sound good if you're good enough a player.

I agree with you 100% on that, though it's really a whole different topic.

[MichaelK]

OK, I listened to all 3 MP3s over my studio monitors.

To me the guitar sounds absolutely identical from one take to the next, though # 2 sounds like it was a maybe an inch +/- farther back from the mic.

Good playing and lovely tone, by the way! Thanks again for posting those.

[chickenbackside]

Haha. Which explain why 2 out of the 3 sets of the pins are sitting inside their packaging somewhere in the drawer...

[Lazy J]

Check out this video:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sGyx_MwNyCI

It isn't very scientific, but does compare notes from different pins side-by-side.

It is pretty similar to what my experience has been.

[Shemp]

This is a really old post, but I will see if anyone is reading...
The 'tone' is subjective to personal preference, but here is what I found when I repeated the steps that MichaelK listed above:
a) Strumming the open strings with the 'stock' plastic strings, it sustains for almost 9 seconds before I can't hear it anymore.
b) Same strings, but with titanium bridge pins (TiSonix, not those fake JelliFish things) it rings for a little over 11 seconds before I can't hear it anymore.

I know it isn't scientific, but it is the same guitar, same strings and same ears and there is a measurable difference - not just preference or style differences.

Lazy J

If you talk to Bob Colosi (pin, bridge and saddle builder extraordinaire) he'll tell you that the biggest difference is sustain, not tone.

[Joe Tone]

Mine are made of unobtainium and sound "special".

[Tom CT]

Uh, let's see, plastic is an insulator correct?

Incorrect. It doesn't conduct electricity. It's not a vibration insulator, however. Plastic tends to sink, while wood floats, meaning plastic is denser and will transfer vibration more efficiently than wood.

There's a Monty Python parallel in here somewhere...

[Joe Tone]

Incorrect. It doesn't conduct electricity. It's not a vibration insulator, however. Plastic tends to sink, while wood floats, meaning plastic is denser and will transfer vibration more efficiently than wood.

There's a Monty Python parallel in here somewhere...

So if plastics sinks and my guitar sinks.....then...... I've bought into another guitar myth?

[sojiro]

Doesn't Martin still send out their guitars with plastic bridge pins? It seems like if it made that much difference to the tone they'd eat the $10 or whatever and use ebony ones.

[dazco]

The short answer is yes, if YOU can hear it. Far too many people here just cannot understand that if they can't no one else can. It doesn't work like that. Hearing sensitivity is different in everyone and can and usually does increase the longer you play and the more you experiment with things. Mine increased just over the last couple years probably more than it has in the previous several decades just from delving deep into amp building and designing. I hear things distinctly now that before i couldn't hear at all. You wouldn't believe how much that can change your ear.

That said, yes, pins can make quite a bit of difference to those who can hear it. I have 4 or 5 sets i tried in my current acoustic and one of them is so different i believe most anyone aside maybe from a beginner would easily hear it. Most are vearious forms of plastic, but the set i settled on were ebony. Also note that there are different sizes and tapers, and if you get one that doesn't fit well at all that could potentially make a serious difference probably to the bad.