Tips on buying vintage Gibson

[Clearspider]

I've recently acquired the bug to go after a vintage Gibson ES-335. Actually, an 80's one would be cool too.
I have never bought a vintage guitar and know that there are eras to avoid, and that certain eras are just over-blown in price.
Can y'all (I'm from TX!) help me out with tips, places to go and try (in DFW area), things to avoid, alternative (Burny, Epi Japan, Greco, Orville etc.) brands to try or avoid...
Thanks in advance.

[Clearspider]

bump for help/ignorance

[Old Tele man]

...bring LOTS of money.

...I owned a '68 ES-345/TDN and "kick" myself for selling it; but as a "placebo"-replacement, I picked up a ES-135LE which is very decent especially for the low price I paid.

[JimAnsell]

i just picked up an 88 es-335 with an ebony fretboard.
just keep an eye out for finish checking, high/loose frets, check the neck and truss rod if you can, make sure all the electronics work correctly.
ya know, the normal stuff.

heres my new baby (on the right)
http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2005-2/951008/IMG_1287.jpg

[Junior]

Probably the best place to go for advice is the Les Paul Forum / The Other Gibsons.

An 80's Gibson may not be the best choice. There's no question that the Norlin years were years of decline. However, people have lightened up a lot and finally admit there were some guitars made in the 70's that were pretty nice. A friend of mine has a '72 tobacco burst 335 that's all you could want. The 60's are pretty expensive, and the 50's guitars, which are considered the real vintage years, are out of sight (especially since they have PAFs, a pair of which will sell alone for the price of many other decent guitars).

As is often stated, the thing with Gibsons is there's a wide spread in quality, even in the 50's, and it only got worse as the company changed hands and ramped up production to meet the demands of the Baby Boomers. It really, really helps to play the guitar before you buy it. But, it's also true, if you get a good one, "There's nothing like a Gibson!". ;)

Best of luck in your search, and take your time.


Jim, that's a really nice pair! I'm a big fan of Norlin Customs, I have a '75, myself. Always loved the clear maple tops.

[poolah]

What I ended up with was a really nice walnut '70. It played and sounded better than any of the re-issues I've played and I'm really happy with it. I have a good friend with a '64 and while his really does sound better (he's got real PAFs) the neck is not as nice as mine and his guitar is worth about $15k more than mine. To me, this guitar is a great player and will also only go up in value, which seems far less certain to me than a re-issue appreciation.

[Clearspider]

Thanks, y'all.

does poolah mean what I think it means? do you have "gypsy" roots?

[stratzrus]

i just picked up an 88 es-335 with an ebony fretboard. heres my new baby (on the right)
http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2005-2/951008/IMG_1287.jpg

Sweet Guitar!

I'm not so sure about the vintage/Norlin/appreciation issues. Real vintage costs so much and is hard to authenticate (more fakes and swapped parts guitars out there than ever). There are good and bad Norlins. All 335's will appreciate in time, even the reissues.

I'd suggest playing as many as possible and if you find one that really speaks to you, grab it whether it's vintage or a 2006. I'm really happy with my 2002 reissue.

stratzrus

[jackaroo]

You can pick up 70's 335's that are nice from 1500-2500. Why get a reissue? To me they feel stiff and heavy. Kind of overbuilt. To me, the best value and the ones I like are the 66 to 68 period of the 335 ver, very much. I have no problem with the narrower neck(not thinner just narrower at the nut). These are getting kind of expensive now too. 4-5K and up. So go figure. I got one for 3 a few yrs ago and anothr for 1800 so goes to show you there are deals out there. Just be patient, but be prepared to act when the opportunity presents itself.

cheers and good luck,

JD

[morlll]

I sold a Norlin blond 347 that needed a neck reset for 1800 five years ago.

It sounded nice but needed a bunch of luthier work.

My new gas model is the 336 or 356. I've played a few of those and they are really nice.

I don't like the walnut ones, I would want a stop tail and not a trapeze. Blond or sunburst not red unless it was a deal.

[stratzrus]

Why get a reissue? To me they feel stiff and heavy.

I actually like the heaviness; it gives it a sense of stability and solidness. Mine felt stiff when I first got it and I was quite concerned. Months of playing later it has really opened up and my initial concerns were replaced by a new enthuisam for the instrument.

I'm sure that there are older and "better" examples out there for $5K or less, but I wouldn't pass up a great reissue hoping for a good deal on a great vintage one that you may or may not ever find.

stratzrus

[poolah]

Thanks, y'all.

does poolah mean what I think it means? do you have "gypsy" roots?

I'm a mutt if there every was one, so it's possible that there's some gypsy in me, but "poolah" was a nickname for my oldest boy when he was a baby, which was around the time I started needing usernames for the net.

[Clearspider]

Funny-
My younger brother's dad is decended from Serbs/Gypsies and his name for a young boy's private part is "poolah"

:D

[WordMan]

Be be prepared to play a LOT of guitars and do your research. You don't address a couple of things up front:

- You don't discuss how well you know the ES335 design, which is key. Do you feel like you can tell a good one from an okay one - and a magic one from a good one - simply by playing it unplugged for half an hour or so along with some time on a decent amp? At the beginning of my search for a magic Gibson, I could NOT do this (started as a Fender guy) so needed to do my homework.
- for that matter, you don't discuss your comfort evaluating Gibsons in general

I just went through this, so here's my take:
- I didn't know what type of Gibson I wanted - either in terms of design or pickups so I started by trying a TON of guitars at guitar stores and seeing what I liked
- I thought it would be one type, so I bought an inexpensive one
- I lived with it for a number of months and realized that there were some features I didn't like that had nothing to do with the quality of the guitar, but more of its fundamental design
- I sold it and tried a guitar with different features - I tried and bought a couple and realized that there were things I really liked about both and that some models incorporated both features.
- I sold those, and bought a Japanese replica of the design I liked. Actually, I bought two (Burny's but I also played a Greco regularly that a friend has)! These were great guitars and I really learned a ton from playing them.
- I kept playing high-end Gibson versions and, to me, I could tell that on the occasional Gibson, it was more than great, it was magic. So I kept doing research.
- I found out what features I really liked - lighter weight, bigger neck, pickup types, etc.
- I found a vintage Gibson online and negotiated a 3-day return
- got the guitar and realized I had found my soulmate guitar...

The point being that it was a multi-year journey for me, but it paid off HUGE dividends. If you really know 335's, then you can just play as many as possible and pick the best one you can afford. If you don't know - and the fact that you are asking questions about what years are the good years and whether Japanese replicas will do it for you leads me to suspect that you would benefit from some research (absolutely no offense intended) - then I think you should plan a bit of trying things out. And I found that there is nothing like living with the guitar for a bit to truly learn what you want - but that means you have to explain to your SO what you are doing so he/she doesn't freak when you buy a guitar and sell it 6 months later.

By the way, I made a profit on every guitar I went through on my quest, so it is not like I threw money away...

Hope this helps.

[FlyingVBlues]

Get a black light and use it to examine the finish. Over-sprayed areas on the guitar will look different than the original finish. Repaired areas that are not visible under normal lighting conditions often become apparent under a black light. Check the hardware and make sure that everything is original. This includes tuners, pickups, pickup rings, pickguard, pots & caps, bridge, tailpiece, switch tip and ring, truss rod cover, etc. Non-original hardware on a vintage guitar will lower its value. Look for evidence of a removed Bigsby and mods that have been reversed, such as an added switch for a coil tap. Look for evidence of a refret. If a refret was done check the work carefully, especially with a ebony fingerboard. Also check the integrity of the binding carefully. Check the neck and make sure that it doesn't have any warping, twists, a hump at the joint where it joins with the guitar body or other anomalies. Check the truss rod and make sure that it isn't binding or broken. Check the tuners and make sure they are working properly, and don't slip or bind. Check for intonation problems and tuning stability. Make sure you try the guitar through an amp and that there aren't any problems with noise, hum etc. in all 3 pickup positions. Make sure the pickups and electrical hardware is working correctly. If you have any doubts about the origin of the pickups pull them and examine them carefully. Most manufacturers use a sticker or some other type of marking to identfy their pickups. If you find an issue, but you really dig the guitar, negotiate accordingly. If that doesn't work just walk away -- vintage 335's are readily available.

Also, make sure that you get the guitar on a minimum of 48-hour approval (in writing, spelling out all the terms and conditions), and have your luthier/tech take a look at it. If it's an older, expensive guitar such as a late 50's 335 you might also have an expert in vintage guitars take a look at it. If that's not possible you can send pics via e-mail to George Gruhn, and he can appraise it for you for a modest fee.

FVB

[ES350]

Some good bargains to be had out there if you want a player...walnut, trapeze, phase switch, whatever; never mind the cosmetics...buy the best playing one you can afford and make it what you want it to be...

[Clearspider]

Wordman:
That's excellent info there. You are correct in assuming I am asking questions cuz I don't know and therefore need to try out a lot of guitars.
I am coming to a 335 from an Epiphone Riviera and a ratty Epiphone Dot. I just built a Telecaster that far exceeds the expectations I had for it, so Fender is covered for me.
The things I like about them are: semi-hollowbody design, the looks and feel (very superficial but is important for me to comfortable :D). It's the scratchy mid-range ghostiness from the construction I like most. I've played a friend's '83 and knew I had to start a search of my own.
I play rock, country and country-rock :D
I've learned from another friend;s Epiphone Japan LP that their construction is excellent, and ANOTHER friend's recommendation and experience that Burny, Greco and Tokai are also excellent non-Gibson alternatives.

[WordMan]

Wordman:
That's excellent info there. You are correct in assuming I am asking questions cuz I don't know and therefore need to try out a lot of guitars.
I am coming to a 335 from an Epiphone Riviera and a ratty Epiphone Dot. I just built a Telecaster that far exceeds the expectations I had for it, so Fender is covered for me.
The things I like about them are: semi-hollowbody design, the looks and feel (very superficial but is important for me to comfortable :D). It's the scratchy mid-range ghostiness from the construction I like most. I've played a friend's '83 and knew I had to start a search of my own.
I play rock, country and country-rock :D
I've learned from another friend;s Epiphone Japan LP that their construction is excellent, and ANOTHER friend's recommendation and experience that Burny, Greco and Tokai are also excellent non-Gibson alternatives.


All great - and I just bought a Parts-O-Tele too so can relate.
It sounds like you should pick a couple of things you really want to explore - e.g., differences in construction or pickups/parts, and get an example to check out for the best value - with an eye to resale. Live with it and learn from it, but don't assume you'll find the Holy Grail the first time - or even the 5th time! - out.

And yeah, the Burny's, etc., can be great - for the money, especially. I have played many GREAT ones, but haven't come across many MAGIC ones. They are rare for Gibson, too, but when the right combination of variables hit, wow...

Good luck!

[frisco kid]

You should be able to pickup a 70's era 335 for under $2500. I bought this exc. condition '79 ES335 for under $2500. I was leery of all I'd heard of Norlin era Gibsons but to my ears, it's the best sounding 335 I've played regardless of decade.

http://www.fenderforum.com/userphotos/index.html?recid=39217

[Clearspider]

HOly Shit, man. That's beautiful.

[Phineas]

not sure if this was already mentionied but vintage gibsons like the 335 or other f-hole style guitars are prone to neck joint damage - after 20-50 yrs something is bound to happen if it wasn't kept right. i'd make sure that the neck is stable and that it never has been reset. if it was then make sure it was done right. i remember walking into GC's vintage room and i swear 1/3 of those gibsons they had up there had neck resets.