4 conductor question.....??

[Blueswede]

I"m in the process of swapping out the pups in my McInturff FLE. The original pups are Dimarzios and I'm putting in a pair of Bare Knuckles. Does anyone know if the wiring on the DM would be the same? I mean in terms of the red, white, black and green. Are all pups the same? I soldered the colors on the BN exactly the same, but now I have a lot more noise, and the 2 and 4 positions are very different. 2 is very weak. Any suggestions and help would be greatly appreciated. Steve

[Mike9]

All pickups are NOT created equal - many have different color codes. I'm surprised you didn't get an istallation sheet with your BKs. You can always get a meter and test wire combinations till you figure it out - it's not that hard. I'm sure someone here has them installed and can tell you.

[Blueswede]

I got a very simple diagram, but it is not for a 4 conductor pickup wired to a 5 way switch. It also mentions "start of screw coil, start of slug coil, etc" which I do not understand. I've emailed BN pickups for more info. Thanks. Steve

[blueguitar]

The screw coil is the coil with the adjustable screws in it while the slug coil is the other one. There should be a wire for the start and end of each coil. Connecting the end of one coil to the start of the other should give you standard humbucking operation. You will need to determine what kind of split coil setup you want if you're wiring for that. There will be a way to have both coils running in single coil(s) parrallel mode and another way to just have one coil running for a single coil sound. Basically, if you know what the start of each coil is you should be able to produce what I have suggested. Do it the same way for both p/ups to stay in phase when your using both.

[Jack Briggs]

The screw coil is the coil with the adjustable screws in it while the slug coil is the other one. There should be a wire for the start and end of each coil. Connecting the end of one coil to the start of the other should give you standard humbucking operation. You will need to determine what kind of split coil setup you want if you're wiring for that. There will be a way to have both coils running in single coil(s) parrallel mode and another way to just have one coil running for a single coil sound. Basically, if you know what the start of each coil is you should be able to produce what I have suggested. Do it the same way for both p/ups to stay in phase when your using both.

Not always - some pickup winders tie the starts from each coil; some the finishes. Best to contact the pickup maker. If you tie the start from one coil to the finish of the other, they will certainly be out-of-phase.

[Blueswede]

I changed the ground wire for the bridge pup, and got rid of the noise. In the 2 position, I've got a really nice tone now, although only the bridge volume control works on it. I'm actually very stoked at the tones I"m getting now. I really recommend the Bare Knuckles Mules. Great pickups, IMHO. Steve

[blueguitar]

Not always - some pickup winders tie the starts from each coil; some the finishes. Best to contact the pickup maker. If you tie the start from one coil to the finish of the other, they will certainly be out-of-phase.

Most humbucking p/ups are built so that one coil is reverse wound and reverse polarity (RWRP) in which case my recommendation would be correct. That being said I don't know how BN winds theirs so checking with the winder is always safe. I don't know to many winders that are so different that this wouldn't be the case 95% of the time. But, sounds like your getting a handle on it now.

[UfoPilot]

:BEER Humbucker coils are all wound the same direction. I connnect the coil ends together. http://mysticpickups.com/MysticPickups/Wiring.html There is no standard color scheme. You can connect the start of each coil together or the end of each coil together it dosen't matter. You need to contact the maker to find out which color is which. If you connect the start of one coil to the end of the other it will not be humbucking UNLESS one of the coils is wound in the reverse direction (noone does this that I know of).:BEER
this is from Bare Knuckels page
What is the Bare Knuckle Four conductor colour code?
Black =start of screw coil
White = finish of screw coil
Red = start of slug coil
Green = finish of slug coil

For standard series operation solder the red to the pot tag, the black to ground(usually the back of the pot casing) and solder the green and white together.

[blueguitar]

:BEER Humbucker coils are all wound the same direction. I connnect the coil ends together. http://mysticpickups.com/MysticPickups/Wiring.html There is no standard color scheme. You can connect the start of each coil together or the end of each coil together it dosen't matter. You need to contact the maker to find out which color is which. If you connect the start of one coil to the end of the other it will not be humbucking UNLESS one of the coils is wound in the reverse direction (noone does this that I know of).:BEER.
UfoPilot:

The end of one coil is wired to the start of the other and that is what I stated in my original post: "Connecting the end of one coil to the start of the other should give you standard humbucking operation." By doing this you are essentially reversing the direction of the flow of electrons and one coil is effectively REVERSE wound. Because that coil sits on the opposite edge of the magnet (most standard humbucker construction methods) it is also REVERSE polarity. So is it still "noone does this that I know of"?

[UfoPilot]

UfoPilot:

The end of one coil is wired to the start of the other and that is what I stated in my original post: "Connecting the end of one coil to the start of the other should give you standard humbucking operation." By doing this you are essentially reversing the direction of the flow of electrons and one coil is effectively REVERSE wound. Because that coil sits on the opposite edge of the magnet (most standard humbucker construction methods) it is also REVERSE polarity. So is it still "noone does this that I know of"?

If you wire it that way it will be out of phase.
Lets see....
Seymour duncan dose not do it that way.....
Gibson does not do it that way.......
Bare Knuckels does not do it that way......
Jason Loller does not do it that way.......
I do not do it that way.....
Yes I would say "No one I know of does it that way"
Because that way is WRONG!

I sugest you read these links...


http://www.stewmac.com/shop/Electronics,_pickups/Pickups:_Kits/1/Humbucker_Kit/Instructions/I-5961.html#details

http://www.seymourduncan.com/support/faqdescr.shtml#correctoop

this is from seymour duncans site:

All Seymour Duncan humbuckers with four-conductor hookup wires incorporate a standard wire color code.
Green = beginning of adjustable coil
Red = finish of adjustable coil
Black = beginning of stud coil
White = finish of stud coil
For standard series humbucking operation on a 4-Conductor wired humbucker the White & Red wires are soldered together and taped; Green is ground and Black is Hot Output. The bare wire is also grounded.

Finish of screw coil is connected to finish of slug coil !


:horse

[blueguitar]

UfoPilot:

If you wire as you suggested all you have done is wire 2 single coils together in parallel not series. According to your theory and using the SD description you are wiring the 2 ends (-) together and the 2 starts (+) are the leads. Unless one of the coils is actually wound backwards, which is not clarified in the SD site, that is what you are accomplishing. I don't know whether we're talking about the same thing and just not agreeing on it or whether we are actually opposed on this issue but here is a diagram and explaination of what I am talking about:

http://www.1728.com/guitar1a.htm

If you don't agree with this then we shall remain politely opposed.

[blueguitar]

Oh, BTW UfoPilot, have you ever noticed when you add a Duncan P/up to any other set of factory p/ups how your always out of phase? What's with that? The only P/up manufacturer, I know of, who uses black for hot in 2 or more unshielded cable leads. What do they think we're doing re-wiring a house?

[Jack Briggs]

Humbucking pickups do their thing by one coil being not only of reversed magnetic polarity but by the electron flow reversed as well. If you tie the end of one coil to the start of the other, you're going to have the flow the same for each coil. You need to tie either both starts or both finishes together. That's the way it's done.

(Pic courtesy of Stewart-MacDonald):


http://www.stewmac.com/freeinfo/i-4000/4000_02_dia1.gif

[UfoPilot]

UfoPilot:

If you wire as you suggested all you have done is wire 2 single coils together in parallel not series. According to your theory and using the SD description you are wiring the 2 ends (-) together and the 2 starts (+) are the leads. Unless one of the coils is actually wound backwards, which is not clarified in the SD site, that is what you are accomplishing. I don't know whether we're talking about the same thing and just not agreeing on it or whether we are actually opposed on this issue but here is a diagram and explaination of what I am talking about:

http://www.1728.com/guitar1a.htm

If you don't agree with this then we shall remain politely opposed.

Your diagram shows the two Finish wires connected together. If you read that link, It agrees with what I posted.
1.Coils wound the same direction
2. finish wires (outside of coils) connected together.
That link is a good explanation of how it works.

[blueguitar]

Look at the direction of the electron flow. In the upper coil it is going clockwise and in the lower coil it is going counterclockwise. It's all about the flow. Doesn't really matter how it's done or the bobbin wind as long as you reverse the electron flow and the polarity. I assumed we were having a semantics problem and not principles.

[Jack Briggs]

blueguitar,

WADR, it seems as though you're the only one having a problem with the semantics. Even the diagram you've linked to shows the finishes tied together. Both coils are wound the same way, as are all humbuckers. Tying an end to a start will only result in an out-of-phase pickup. You're hearing it from not only myself, who has wired or rewired many a humbucker, but from UfoPilot, who builds pickups for a living.

How about you?

[blueguitar]

blueguitar,

WADR, it seems as though you're the only one having a problem with the semantics. Even the diagram you've linked to shows the finishes tied together. Both coils are wound the same way, as are all humbuckers. Tying an end to a start will only result in an out-of-phase pickup. You're hearing it from not only myself, who has wired or rewired many a humbucker, but from UfoPilot, who builds pickups for a living.

How about you?

I may not have stated my preposition correctly but the principle is correct in that one coil works in a reverse winding (electron flow) and is reverse polarity. I also don't state absolutes such as "Both coils are wound the same way, as are all humbuckers" which is not true of stacked humbuckers such as the P-100 where the coil is actually wound/mounted or whatever to be reversed. I am not a professional pick-up winder and I don't have all the jargon but it is also easy to see that there is no standard for nomenclature and it might be best to refer to + and - leads as opposed to starts/finishes/ends etc. If I had been the poster here I wouldn't know what the heck you were talking about with "tie the 2 ends together" as you generally can't see where the wire is coming from under the taped bobbin. But if you guys really want to do us a favor and end the confusion how about coming up with a standard color coding that us poor blue collar repair idiots can use so we don't spend a lot of time trying to get your p/ups to work right in a guitar? When I open the hood of any car and look at the battery I see that black is ground and red is hot every time!?

Thanks for the valuable information and the lesson in humility.

[ManliusGuitar]

What brand pickup is it, I have a chart of several 4 conductor wiring configurations.
Mick

[Blueswede]

Bare Knuckles Mules........

[UfoPilot]

I posted this earlier in this thread:

this is from Bare Knuckels page
What is the Bare Knuckle Four conductor colour code?
Black =start of screw coil
White = finish of screw coil
Red = start of slug coil
Green = finish of slug coil

For standard series operation solder the red to the pot tag, the black to ground(usually the back of the pot casing) and solder the green and white together.

[Blueswede]

Although I certainly do appreciate the BN site info, I am having a difficulty figuring out "slug coil, screw coil, etc." What I"m doing is using a 5 way switch with all of the wires soldered to either a lug or a ground. I was hoping someone could provide a link to an illustration of where each wire goes. At this point though, I've pretty much figured it out. I just had to match the colors up (Dimarzios to BN). Thanks for all of the great info. Steve