My approach to a modeling rig and making it work (long) [Archive]

Scott Peterson

01-15-2007, 02:25 PM

My approach to modeling and making it work

I thought this would be a good thing to share, I've been working hard on this for a number of years. I'll start with this, I've got nothing to sell, so don't come after me for hyping anything. I am just in search of something and think I have gotten pretty close now.

First a slight return; I play in a lot of genre's especially in the past few years. I've been in rock bands for most of my life of one form or another (classic, modern covers; original roots rock, Lilith Fair-era chick rock), country (more modern country than classic); pop/soul, blues/jazz/rock hybrids, old school funk covers and modern pop/smooth R&B stuff. It takes a lot of top end gear to really cover that range of stuff. I've owned and played a lot of stuff. From full-on custom ordered guitars (Thorn, Melancon) to top-notch production guitars (Hamer, PRS, Tom Anderson, Parker and lots more) to the cheapest imports that I won't detail; to hand made pedals to production pedals; from amps that cost $4K (Germino, Bogner, Matchless, Guytron, VHT, THD, Rivera, Dr. Z, Koch, Fender, Marshall and on and on) down to the cheapest solid state boxes. I've got a lot of passion and an obsession with tone/feel/response, but I am not in any way snobbish about how you get there. I've got good musical ears, and have done FOH, engineered in studios, mixed and ran a mastering business for a few years. That all said, this isn't me bragging or telling anyone what to hear or how to hear it, it is just me sharing some thoughts and backing it up with where I come from. You do not need to agree with me, and I am not looking for a fight.

After lugging $3K heads and $800 speaker cabs, needing a $2500 pedal board and boutique cables, a AC line conditioner and regulator and playing $4000 guitars for bar gigs, you could say I am a little crazy. Or stupid. I've heard both. But it matters to me. So there. The weight, the cost (and risk) and the sheer amount of gear you need to reach the highest levels of what works for the player it matters to... well, it's left the door open for that simpler, smaller and lighter solution. Enter solid state and then as an extension, digital modeling.

Solid state amps can be very good. The Tech 21 Trademark 60 is a great amp. The Crate Powerblock is a surprising likable little thing. It works, and works well.

I've tried the digital route extensively, I've owned all the POD's from Line 6 (version 1.00 to XT 3.01); owned the Vox Valvetronix 212 combo, the SE foot pedal version; the Korg stuff and messed with the Boss/Roland end of that world.

So I've hit a phase in life dictated by finances where the high end stuff all has been sold (other than my Melancon guitars, I can never part with them). I am in a position to find a solution for all the different types of gigs I might be called on to play, but cannot justify holding thousands in gear simply “in case”. So choices had to be made.

I've tilted towards the Line 6 stuff, because I have felt all along that their approach was the one that fit me best. Their stuff sounds good totally stripped down to the amp/cab level. To me.

I've been working with the POD XT Live for a long time. Looking at my insurance riders, I've had it since fall of 2004. In that time, I've worked hard with it, gigged it, recorded it, loved it, hated it. It is still here, and now I am “stuck” with it, so I've sort of rediscovered it.

For all the good that is in there, there have been some very frustrating issues dealing with it. If you've spent any time at all with a modeler, you know right away that they are not plug-n-play units, you need to reset your brain and approach the thing like it is your entire rig; invest the time and energy you need to in order to get your whole setup together and working together. You cannot just plug into it and have your fantasy Marshall amp right there in your headphones. (Well, you sorta can, but it takes work).

My main knock on all these units has been the “feel” thing. That's pretty universal. I have noticed over time that the folks who most object to the tone of modelers are guys that play single coil guitars, strats, teles and the sort. Heavy metal and rock players using humbuckers are far less likely to speak up about the “feel” thing (though they do!). I've tried buffers before and after the input/output; lots of things. The one thing that did it far better, and for far less bucks(!), is the little Radial Dragster. I bought the thing for my wireless, and it does what it says it does. It loads the pickups. They respond right, and the output and timbre of the pickups comes through. No more tinny, tiny, plinky-plink cleans. The “body” and “pop” is there. Kudos to Radial, and yes, I've emailed them about this application of the unit. It's funny a) they didn't consider it a marketing angle; and b) that the modeling crowd out there hasn't gone nuts on it. I Velcro it to the XTL, off to the side and run a George L to the input of the XTL. Simple. Cheap. Good!

I've always in the past fought the seeming universal acceptance in the modeling “world” of the “mic/AIR” simulation; if I want a live amp, I don't want speaker and/or “room” coming out of the speakers on the amp. Direct? Sure. Through an amp? No! Even on regular amps with reverb, I've always been a non-reverb, dry tone guy. I want the richness and fullness of tone from the hands, strings, guitars and amps. Not reverb. Back to a live sounding amp, not a mic'd “AIR”'d sounding amp; I've gone a lot of ways with this, from using powered PA speakers (JBL EON G2) to keyboard amps. Flat out, something in those simulations always seems to irritate my ear to no end, bugs me and grates on my nerves. The modeling world has workarounds extradinare out there – from using full blown EQ solutions to guys creating mystery boxes that completely shift the output to tube buffers. All good ideas, good workarounds that are creative and effective. But why not just shut off the stupid “mic/AIR” thing and use your own mic and room? That always seemed the solution to me. With the newer firmware versions of Line 6's XT's, you could now switch that off. That helped me to no end in what I was chasing. For all of the coloring that guys will spend so much time and effort working around, all I have to do is turn that **** off and I've got my workaround.

Now how do you amplify the thing?

Enter the Atomic Reactor tube amps. Now, past the PA output solution, I've tried tube amps (front of the amp, into the effects return), straight PA power amps, the Crate Powerblock (surprisingly good) and the Roland Cube 60 (slightly thin and 2D, but man, it works in context). In regards to other output sections using other amps, the speakers were almost always not right for the job. The tonality and color from the cab simulation was already there, so the clash of the these colors just didn't work. The Roland Cube 60 was the little combo that really woke me up to this, that speaker really works. But there is another solution that takes it further.

I had one of the original 18watt combos that Atomic put out, and I really liked it. A lot. But the 18watt output spl level didn't leave me with enough headroom on stage for the cleans. And the intrinsic character of EL84's works for a lot of things, but didn't fit for me on certain tones I needed. This past summer/fall they shipped a 50 watt 6L6 version of the amps. They feature a ported sealed back and 200 watt capacity speakers. I have a 112 50 watt version and it does the job perfectly. It does color the sound... but it just sounds and feels right. I need to mic it and put it on a stand aimed at my head to keep up with the guys in my rock band (hard hitting drummer, bassist with a 300watt all tube SVT head and an 8-10” speaker cab, other guitarist with a Marshall 100watt head and Marshall 412), but it can and does hang. I haven't had a shot at using it on other gigs yet, but based on my rock band experience, I fully expect it to do fine. (That's been the acid test for a long time – if my setup can hang with this band (I've been with these guys on/off for a long time). The other guitarist has had the same setup for a LONG time, and his tone is fantastic. If my setup can hang with his, I know I have something real.

So what I am looking for out of the XTL and why would I actually start liking it again?

It's small, light and I've set it up completely based on what I want from an array of not only an amps, but my whole rig. I've got silent tuning and tap tempo to sync up delay and modulation to the song. I have a volume pedal and a wah on every channel. I have a 6db (or whatever I choose) clean boost on every preset (I use the compressor and set the threshold to 0db, boost to whatever I deem and have it switchable on the “amp” button on the XTL). I have two XTL's, and with the software it is a cinch to keep them both updated and virtual clones of each other in case one goes down for whatever reason.

I like Fender Twin, Marshall Plexi, Vox AC-30TB, Matchless DC-30 and Roland Jazz Chorus cleans. That covers me in most any situation.

I like Fender Tweed, Marshall Plexi, Vox AC-30TB, Matchless DC-30, and similar “pushed” cleans/light OD tones. Again, covers me for most any situation I face.

For heavier music, I like a range of tones stretching from driven Vox, Marshall Plexi to JCM 800 to Soldano, Diezel and Bogner XTC Crunch. For more modern stuff, the Mesa Rectified stuff and the Bogner Uberschall work for me.

If I need a special setup for a given song, I can program it in pretty easily and just have it ready to go. No tap dance.

Add the Radial Dragster and the Atomic Reactor 50-112 and there you have it. (I have the Roland Cube 60 as the back up on the gig). I set it up to the “Combo Front” output mode, with -10db bass, 800Hz mid focus, and flat highs. (For the Roland Cube, Combo Front, -20db bass, 480Hz mid, -20db high). I'll vary those output settings based on the room though – it's a fast and very good quick universal EQ.

Most guys not interested in this stuff stopped reading a long time ago, but if you did read this and follow, then that's my “tone” map. No massive post EQ, no hidden magic. I tend to EQ the amp presets starting at noon and like to cut more than boost. With the Radial, my output setting and the Atomic, the presence control is usable on all the presets.

That's how I got this thing working for me now. And it works well. Kudos to Andy Z for inspiration and his wealth of experience, to Tom King at Atomic for having a vision and the balls to pull it off and to the guys sharing presets out there that I've broken down, studied and learned from.

Peace.

journo

01-15-2007, 02:50 PM

Scott Peterson

01-15-2007, 02:54 PM

Hi Scott,

Thank you for a most interesting and educational post.
I also run digital modelling with good results abeit not live but in the studio. I also use the Radial Dragster but although it does some good it doesn't do wonders for me like it seem to do to you. I'm using a Boss GS-10 which (in my ears) compared to the Line 6 has better dynamics and feel. Then I have to say I run the Dragster between my guitars and my pedalboard with a lot of pedals with no buffer. I know Radial has recently released a combinded booste/buufer that includes a Dragster circuit. I'm thinking that could be my solution.

I remember you mentioning both a solid state buffer from a canadian company run by Mario and the VHT Valvulator. Have you let go of these units totally?
Do you think I could benefit from a buffer?

Cheers,

Mats N

I have sold both the BS2 Guitar Audio Buffer/Splitter and the VHT Valvulator a long time ago. Both were excellent. The VHT did color the sound and add some grit, which is good or bad depending on your taste. I have used Radial's most excellent passive DI, the JDI, for many years and completely dig their stuff. As for what you ask, you'll never know unless you try. If you have a lot of pedals, a buffer will indeed do wonders for the highs from your guitar. It's worth a try. Buy used and play for free would be prudent here.

Note the Dragster is not a buffer btw.

yeahyeahyeah

01-15-2007, 02:57 PM

I have a good friend that runs a "hybrid" setup much like the one you describe. He uses a boss GT6 into an atomic. works pretty well.

journo

01-15-2007, 02:59 PM

Hi Scott,

Thanks for the reply and the advice!

There are problems with the advice about buying used as I live in Sweden and stuff like this rerely surfaces here. Especially if the product is fairly new as the Radial booster is. I think I will just have to order it and find out the heard way. But then again I also hold Radial products in high regard
so how wrong can I go?

Cheers,

Mats N

fr8_trane

01-15-2007, 03:09 PM

Scott,
Do the prominent ghost notes on many of the the amp models bother you? I love the tone of the AC-30 model but the ghost notes make it unusable for single note stuff for me. Ditto for many of the fender models. My favorites are the various plexis, whichever matchless doesn't have the ghost notes (one does, one doesn't), the hiwatt, and the budda. I recently got a really great cookin marshall sound with the powerblock and a marshall 4x10 but the cleans still leave me flat compared to my real fenders.

StompBoxBlues

01-15-2007, 03:16 PM

I bought a Dragster, if I remember right, from your recommendation. I don't use modelling, and since buying it was using a very high input impedance pedal first in line, so I didn't feel the need for it at the moment, but I kept mine.

I played with it just a little, and keep it in my gig-bag just in case. Just wondering...I had a hard time finding when it was set "right".

This is a very informative and interesting thread. I don't want to sidetrack it too much, but just a brief description of how you find the "best" setting with say a single coil guitar? Does it just "jump out" at you when you adjust the variable knob? Do you do this with amp set loud, or doesn't it matter? Do you do it with other pedals on, or with all others off?

Things like that. Any procedure, or method you use to dial it in?

THanks!

Scott Peterson

01-15-2007, 03:20 PM

fr8_trane - no, I am not having issues with the ghost notes. Interesting and I'll listen for them next time I fire up the rig. I have no answer for you because I have not suffered from them.

StompBoxBlues - basically I use a humbucker on full, then roll the knob from "less" to "more" until I hear it crushing the signal. Then I back off till I don't hear it at all and that's my setting. What I find is that it really lets the single coil pickups retain life and volume compared to without the Dragster. I just love this little thing.

journo

01-15-2007, 04:04 PM

StompBoxBlues - basically I use a humbucker on full, then roll the knob from "less" to "more" until I hear it crushing the signal. Then I back off till I don't hear it at all and that's my setting. What I find is that it really lets the single coil pickups retain life and volume compared to without the Dragster. I just love this little thing.

Hi Scott,

I'm not StompBoxBlues but I'd like to add my thanks for this description. It has given me ideas to try. :D

Cheers,

Mats N

Scott Peterson

01-15-2007, 04:17 PM

Mats - thanks for reading!

-------------------------------------------------------------------

On another topic, one thing I wanted to mention but didn't is that the Atomic 50-112 is pretty cranking loud box. It's big sounding for a 112, and I measured it at 121db on the speaker and 116db about a yard away. That's freaking loud. It doesn't have the mass of a 212 or 412, but it sounds enormous for a 112. It's an impressive achievement.

Roodboy

01-15-2007, 04:36 PM

. I've tried buffers before and after the input/output; lots of things. The one thing that did it far better, and for far less bucks(!), is the little Radial Dragster. I bought the thing for my wireless, and it does what it says it does. It loads the pickups. They respond right, and the output and timbre of the pickups comes through. No more tinny, tiny, plinky-plink cleans. The “body” and “pop” is there. Kudos to Radial, and yes, I've emailed them about this application of the unit. It's funny a) they didn't consider it a marketing angle; and b) that the modeling crowd out there hasn't gone nuts on it. I Velcro it to the XTL, off to the side and run a George L to the input of the XTL. Simple. Cheap. Good!

And it works well. Kudos to Andy Z for inspiration and his wealth of experience, to Tom King at Atomic for having a vision and the balls to pull it off and to the guys sharing presets out there that I've broken down, studied and learned from.

Peace.

I am using you buffer suggestion with a MDEQ in front of a Line 6 Flextone IIIxl and it really helps with the dynamics.
I have annexed a link to a good thread with pretty good patches from the Line 6 forum if anyone wants to check it out.

http://line6.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=3&t=016178&p=1

fr8_trane

01-15-2007, 05:30 PM

but just a brief description of how you find the "best" setting with say a single coil guitar? Does it just "jump out" at you when you adjust the variable knob? Do you do this with amp set loud, or doesn't it matter? Do you do it with other pedals on, or with all others off?

With the Podxt I basically take the first decent sounding preset and remove everything except the amp model - no FX, no AIR/cab modeling (unless I'm using headphones or recording direct). Then I just start scrolling the the various amp models until I find one I like and adjust EQ and gain from there and then save the patch. The Zen Master (budda) is a personal favorite for bluesy crunch. The plexi jump lead sounds great for rock.

Another tip. Try using the post eq to roll off the the highest freq (9.3 k) by a few DB's. This does a good job of taming the fizz on the distorted amp tones. I find this essential for really heavy amps like the Dual Treadplate.

Scott Peterson

01-15-2007, 05:38 PM

This is a very informative and interesting thread. I don't want to sidetrack it too much, but just a brief description of how you find the "best" setting with say a single coil guitar? Does it just "jump out" at you when you adjust the variable knob? Do you do this with amp set loud, or doesn't it matter? Do you do it with other pedals on, or with all others off?

Things like that. Any procedure, or method you use to dial it in?

Thanks!

No sidetrack at all. I follow a simple method.

You have to do it at volume, less than 85db and it won't work at volumes needed to gig with. Pick an amp model and shut off everything else. Use the default cab to start. Then put the knobs all at noon. Start playing and adjusting, using your ears more than your eyes. Once I get somewhere I like, I then try different cab models. Then I build from there.

I tend to leave the volume up 100% on the Atomic. I set the output level on the back of the XTL to "Line" and crank it all the way up, then I set the output level of the patch using the channel volume in the preset. I use clean single coil presets to establish the overall max volume I'll set the patches for, and then adjust all the higher gain humbucker stuff to match those volumes (my guitars are S/S/H).

This way, I never get stuck with clean tones too quiet compared to the heavier tones I dial in.

Note I don't like to use "mic" or "AIR" if I absolutely don't have too.

Once you've dialed in the tones you like, then find the effects and such to go with them; depends on a) your application; and b) your taste.

That's my method.

Lucidology

01-15-2007, 06:26 PM

Informative & insightful thread Scott.. thanks!

Mincer

01-15-2007, 06:38 PM

Desiknow

01-15-2007, 06:39 PM

Scott,

Gimmie some pics...

I have a Tonelab SE coming in tomorrow. I am a clean slightly breaking up kinda guy.

I have had the XTL twice and sold them.
Regarless, i think I need to get the Radial box.

Pics, pics, pics

Scott Peterson

01-15-2007, 06:44 PM

Desiknow

01-15-2007, 06:49 PM

how about pics of you rig all put together.

XTL and atomic

tmuka

01-15-2007, 06:54 PM

Very intriguing post, I appreciate you taking the time to write all the details! I look forward to more experimentation along the same vein in my future. rock on!

Tone_Terrific

01-15-2007, 08:17 PM

Followed your thread over from the lounge.
You have a logical, thorough approach of eliminating or correcting the weak links in the system.
I am further convinced that a lot of digi gear gets a bad rap from traditional plug-n-play users that don't address those devish details.
(Of course, if you can buy your tone and get it right out of the box, why not?) But, like all gear, there are limitations even with the best fingers spinning the knobs.

Take your rig to an ampfest or something and see if the skeptics can be convinced.

LSchefman

01-15-2007, 10:27 PM

Best modeling post I've read so far, Scott.

What's smart is how you've sussed out and eliminated the drawbacks to modeling for live use, such as the room tone thing, etc.

Let's talk soon!

michael_smurphy

01-15-2007, 11:24 PM

Very interesting man, I am a big fan of all things Line 6 these guys are what Fender was to guitarists in the 1950's, I know things will get on back and if they do add the Vax 700 acoustic, its awesome some of the things you can combo with the XTL.

fr8_trane

01-15-2007, 11:44 PM

The cool thing about Scott's approach is that its very streamlined. FOR INSTANCE... if you want a versatile gig machine thru a clean fender amp you would need to have a large # of high quality OD and mod pedals into a fairly clean front end and a complicated switching system. If you have a top end channel switcher you would still need to run all of your time and mod FX thru the FX loop. With a PODxt live or Podxt + FBV into the Atomic everything is controlled from the floorboard with no extra pedals/cables. That is worth a look IMO. Plus having only 3 tubes to replace on the Atomic is a blessing.

I am seriously considering this rig as we speak. I just don't know if I can part with the sweet organic tube clean tones I can get from my SF Fender amps. Honestly tho, the good distortion sims from the Pod just DESTROY every OD pedal I have ever tried thru a clean amp...and I've tried ALOT.

fr8_trane

01-16-2007, 12:10 AM

no, I am not having issues with the ghost notes. Interesting and I'll listen for them next time I fire up the rig. I have no answer for you because I have not suffered from them.Dial up the ac-30TB model with a bit of drive (or bassman, or plexi 45 et al) and start at the G note on the 10th fret A string. Play chromatically up the string and listen closely. You should hear a ghost harmony note quite clearly. If you're not sure, bend the note and you'll hear the harmony bend also. Try it starting on the B and G strings in the 3rd position as well. Eventually you'll find a note that has a major 3rd above and it will be VERY obvious. Trust me, its there.

Desiknow

01-16-2007, 07:21 AM

Scott Peterson

01-16-2007, 07:29 AM

Scott,
Two things...

1. Did you get rig of you main rig or is it just "in the closet"

2. I was looking in google and at the atomic website and the can you only get their amps directly? did you pay full price?

Answers:

1. This is my main rig now. The IRS needed money, and that's that. I posted a thread about it and don't want to rehash it. And I don't want to have to ban myself for a politically tinged rant, so with that, I'll shut up now. :D

2. You can only buy direct, and I paid the same price as any one else.

Twin63

01-16-2007, 08:15 AM

Thanks for the informative post, Scott. I used the POD 2.0 in a church setting for almost 5 years. We covered a lot of styles and the POD was the best I could do on my budget. It did what I needed and, at least to my ears, did it pretty well. I've recently "graduated" to the XTL and have been very pleased. It really is an affordable, giggable unit if you take a little time to tweak.

Don't get me wrong - I'm still GASing for the Tyler Strat > "pool table size" pedal board > Reinhardt 18W, but with a mortgage and kids still at home it just ain't happening yet! But, someday..............:AOK

Scott Peterson

01-16-2007, 08:26 AM

Some pics:

Normally I use Bayou cables, but at home I just use what's on hand. If you look on the right, you'll see the Dragster velcro'd to the side of the XTL.

http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y287/spetersonmusic/01-2007-Rig-2.jpg

Here's the #1 Melancon (sorry it's so dirty, but I am too busy playing it to clean it!) and note the humidistat on the wall at a comfy 50%. The stand is a Quick-Lok that I've owned and used for a very long time. (It's held Rivera, Matchless and every other combo I've ever owned.)

http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y287/spetersonmusic/01-2007-Rig.jpg

epluribus

01-16-2007, 10:06 AM

This reply actually is in response to the Witches of Salem thread, but IMHO it really belongs here. So it starts with a quote out of the blue from Scott.

I'll also speak to John's comments on the fizz/"broken glass" he senses from all modelers. He and I have gone round and round on that...

A tad OT on my part maybe, but this is an issue I see and hear about constantly, and I think it's worth a post or two--fizzy tone, ice picks, broken glass, harshness, etc. DSP does it, no doubt, but it's not alone, and I think that's a key here.

The reason this pops out at me is that I hear it about DSP, tube rigs (esp the hi-gain flavor), pedals, and PA rigs, but DSP gets hung with it like it's endemic or something. I've discovered it's a common thread across several amp technologies and often down to a common problem: trying to replace detail that got lost someplace else in the signal chain. For those who already know about gain structure throughout an entire signal chain, this is a long read, but I see this fizz thing all the time, and IMHO trying to bandage lousy gain structure is Public Enemy #1.

The first reaction to looking for lost detail is to crank the treble. That'll get ya to fizz land in a hurry. Pushing up the Presence control is somewhat more forgiving, but it usually doesn't address the root problem either. In either case, if you're pushing a skewed EQ curve into distortion, you get exaggerated dirt and compression in the boosted parts, magnifying them, but those lost details stay lost.

The culprits are several, depending on the rig, usually related to gain structure and signal degradation, IMHO, DSP being no exception. The first thing I look at is the guitar--will the pups and the setup cut through in the first place? Trying to get detail out of a bad setup, bad wiring, dirty strings, or an errant knob tempts people to try to "invent" detail later down the line. Ick. (IME, digital modellers are especially sensitive to setups that don't cut through. I use slightly hotter setups for modelling rigs. Hence, I think, Scott's experience with Radial Drag--theory is that DSP doesn't load the pups right. Long suspected that. Gotta try one.)

Comp pedals, or the comp FX in a modeller, can sap detail bigtime if the attack parameters are set "wrong." ("Wrong" unless you have good reason for wanting them that way.) I often tell guys to think of attack parameters on comps as the "Detail" controls, cuz a lot of those pick sounds, percussives of all kinds, attack harmonics, and nuances of all sorts happen in the very early part of the note, IMHO. Easing up the squash of the compressor in the early going will let those details cut through--though now ya gotta watch the loud peaks and transients. (Which conversely should be less problematic cuz the treble isn't cranked up anymore. AAMOF, I always back the EQ on the guitar channel off about one notch at 2500Hz to keep the peaks and highs in line. Works great if ya got a stout signal to work with.)

In amps of all sorts, DSP included, but especially the hi-gain variety, (IMO, small BlackFace amps are #2, strangely enough. :)) At demanding volumes, I see guys boost the bass and mid-scoop the daylights out of an amp wondering where all their bass went. My impression of the problem is that often the power section simply can't produce the power it takes to put out that much bass, and everything fizzles when it runs out of gas--including the details. So now we crank the treble and presence, trying to reinvent the lost parts of the signal, trying to add boost to an EQ band when the amp doesn't have any boost left in it. Flabby bass, blurry dirt, treble-screechy indistinct details--fizzy mid-scoop.

The problem can usually be fixed by backing the bass off considerably and boosting the mids, which paradoxically sounds like tight bass. (Backing the volume off a bit can also help focus the amp, esp the small BF types.) Once the power supply can keep up, the articulate grit and the details come back, so you can back off the treble as well, killing the fizz.

Strangely enough, I've seen several modellers that model this behavior faithfully, including the Pod, the VAmp, and the CyberTwin, and they'll just as faithfully fizzle if pushed too hard. IMHO, pushing a CT too hard, harder than you'd push a real amp, is the number one reason people say they're "harsh." (Some of Fender's presets are pushed crazy out of the box--doesn't help.) Bonus points if the Input Trim is set too cold, letting the littlest detail parts of the signal fall out of the amp’s range of “hearing.”

Crucial for guys with pure DI DSP, mis-set gain on a channel strip on the board will often eat detail as well, and remember that notch at 2500Hz? Turns into a one-notch boost when guys start looking for that extinct detail, the channel still sounds muddy, and now it's harsh and fizzy. Ouch. I refuse to sacrifice a stout, detailed signal anyplace in the chain, and mix all my levels with my faders, not my gain knobs. (Or pads. This is also why I normalize all my patches before a show, so my FOH's gain settings don't get trashed.) DSP with weak gain at the mixer will disappear in a big mix, IME--another gripe about digital. But the problem gets multiplied if the channel EQ screeches as well.

Kinda long, maybe, and I apologize if I'm preaching to the choir, but part of this is for readers who haven't been down this road before. In a nutshell, 9 times out of 10, when I hear about fizz, glass, mosquitos, etc, it's because something is eating detail somewhere else in the signal chain, and Looking for Mr. Tonebar makes the modelling technology look like the culprit. Further, I think modellers are more susceptible to this sort of aspersion since they have so much greater capability for trying to reproduce detail that isn't there. If you can misuse a conventional rig, you can really muck it up royal with the steroidal power of DSP.

--Ray

PS: I didn’t get into cables, buffers, true bypass, or big pedal boards, cuz that’s about three more posts. :messedup Suffice it to say the notions above provide a framework for addressing (…understanding) these other signal issues as well.

Scott Peterson

01-16-2007, 10:34 AM

epluribus, brilliant post.

We are both on the exact same thought pattern, you spell it out in far better detail than I did. Bravo.

Gain-staging is exceptionally important; and it starts from the guitar and moves forward from there. The more "complicated" the setup, the more important it becomes. Most of the FOH, engineering and mixing/mastering guys will recognize this and nod in agreement silently; and you are right on the money.

I am not one to buttress the EQ for a given preset with compression and gates and such; unless it serves a purpose. The reason is two fold - a) less is more (if you don't need it, don't add it); and b) dynamics are key to feel.

On a tremendous amount of the patches/presets I have seen from all over the net, and breaking them down, most guys use compression and/or excessive EQ of some sort to either boost the levels or to brickwall the OD/distortion level. It is also a go-to fix for cleans to get their levels up. I started my post with the intention of noting that I do it backwards from that approach, but I didn't spell it out clearly. I set the output levels of the modeler at full on the back of the unit, using the "Line Out" (unless I am running into the front of the Roland Cube 60, it has no loop); and set my clean volumes up first. Then I match volumes on my OD and Distortion presets. That gets me around and past trying, often in vain, to crank up clean patches in order to match the channel volume of my OD/Distortion patches. Check it for yourself - grab some patches for any given modeler off the net and put it into the correct editor (they are usually free downloads) and check the channel level output in the preset; it'll usually be mashed. So I'll then see guys try to crank up the perceived clean "volume" by boosting EQ and using compression to "catch up". Results in often painful ear-shattering ice pick highs. Just to highlight it, my clean patch channel output levels are often at noon; OD at 10'o clock and distortions often end up around 9 o'clock).

Your discussion on boosting mids and cutting bass to make gig volume "lows" tight is second nature to many guys that play Marshalls, and guys with ears that EQ their amps to fit the sonic picture rather than the bedroom-friendly "happy smile" EQ curve of boosted lows and highs along with scooped mids. I remember when I was in a band and we were looking for a second guitarist. I was playing my Guytron GT-100 with a 212. We had guy after guy show up with 412's and a variety of setups; you could tell inside of 10 seconds the guys that played mostly at home; they sounded massive alone ("happy face EQ") then when the band would play, even though the guy was just LOUD as hell, you could not for the life of you hear him at all. We'd stop mid-song, and sure enough he'd be SCREAMING LOUD, but because of his EQ (no mids!) he'd just disappear in context.

Your point on that topic about guys making something that isn't there louder and creating issues where there isn't an issue is indeed very on topic and cuts right to the idea of why modelers have gotten a bad rap from so many. Guys that even know better don't take the time to build up presets they way they would in "real life" would have to build a rig - everything in the chain (in "real life" or in a "preset") matters. The EQ matters, the gain staging matters. (and loading the pickups on passive single coils matters!).

And "Mr. Tonebar" is classic. :D

Scott Peterson

01-16-2007, 10:40 AM

What I am waiting for also is the "share your patches" that'll come.

I will, but need to attach some serious points with them when I do. Patches are setup with my hands, my rig, my playing style. The way I have the rig setup - from the Dragster to the Atomic - and the output settings/levels on the XTL itself is utterly and completely relevant to making those patches "work".

I'll grab some of them and toss them up in the next few days, but just wanted to broach that topic pro-actively.

megalowmatt

01-16-2007, 11:55 AM

Hi Scott-

WOW. Great post. I have been following your plight since the IRS post and your mention of the XTL in combination with the Roland Cube caught my attention. I too have been struggling with the tone and general feel of my xtl. I have managed to get some pretty darn good tones out of my XTL through a Pro Junior of all things in studio direct mode. Unfortunately, the PJ still retains much of the boxy tone. I am seriously considering purchasing either an Atomic or Power Engine.

Like you, I have spent a good bit of time tweaking the xtl to my liking. we seem to share the same sentiment about the room. I always set it to 0.

You earlier mentioned a Power Engine 60.....what swayed your decesion to use the Atomic over the PE 60? I am considering the PE 60 over the Atomic due to cost issues, but I am curoius as to your thoughts regarding both.

Thanks again for the great post!

mcj

tonefingers

01-16-2007, 12:22 PM

I have a Line6Podxt Live going into
two Tech21 Power Engine60 amps

Any thoughts on this choice of amp?
I think it sounds pretty good.
Doesn't really color the sound, very transparent.

Scott Peterson

01-16-2007, 12:44 PM

You earlier mentioned a Power Engine 60.....what swayed your decesion to use the Atomic over the PE 60? I am considering the PE 60 over the Atomic due to cost issues, but I am curoius as to your thoughts regarding both.

mcj

Actually somebody else must have mentioned the Power Engine; I didn't. I did mention that I have owned a few Trademark 60 combos, but that was pre-modeling in my gear universe. (It's a great amp btw).

I chose the Atomic because I owned the original 18watt version and knew that they were onto something really good, but deeply needed more headroom for cleans than the 18watt provided.

r9player

01-16-2007, 01:02 PM

I got to give that Radial a try .. I've always been feeling for some stuff I need buckers but perhaps I'm just missing that little extra I sometimes get with certain amps in certain situations..

big mike

01-16-2007, 02:45 PM

BURN THE HERETIC!!!!

:D:D

Glad you got it workin for you. Interesting posts for sure. Very informative.
I've yet to have the patience to try to work one out. I admit, I'm very 1 track minded about that thing, but there sure seem some great ideas to make it go.

Desiknow

01-16-2007, 02:49 PM

This is great guys keep the converstion rolling.

I just ordered a dragster and a atomic 115-50watt during lunch.

I have wanted time and again for a rig like this to work out for me but the whole 'feel' thing and being that for the most part what I am going for is not clean nor full out overdrive/distortion but a slightly broken up sound.

like i said in a earlier post I gave the XTL a chance twice but to no avail.

I hope the dragster w/ atomic is the ticket.
I will be trying it out with the tonelab this time. I am seeing if I can incorperate the effects loop with a piece of rack gear.

Lets see...I don't think tom can ship the atomics until early next week though.
its okay I still have a tophat ambassador to go home to...
FOR NOW!!!!!!!!!!!!! mUhaahahaahha

dewman

01-16-2007, 03:12 PM

Dude I so want to give you a Club 40...

Scott Peterson

01-16-2007, 03:18 PM

Dude I so want to give you a Club 40...

Pleeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeease feel free to do so. :D

AndyZ

01-16-2007, 03:24 PM

Scott, I'm really glad to hear you are digging the Atomic 112-50. I think you told me you grabbed my patches, but I'll also post a link here to my latest bundle for the PODxt below for others. I alot of my patches I do use my Tele with a Lil 59 in the bridge and humbucker in the neck, but work with many other guitars fine too. The first 5 banks are what I use most and the other are just there as a starting point for many amp models I may need. There are also the patches for the sound clips Tom King and I did on the Atomic myspace page http://www.myspace.com/AtomicAmps .

My PODxt bundle link here: http://www.instituteofnoise.com/patches/atomic_podxt_301/AtomicPODxt-v301-2006-12-28.l6b

I'll also say that anyone going to NAMM and is interested in hearing the Atomic 112-50's, I'll be using 2 of em (in stereo setup) at a gig Saturday nite Jan 20th at 9pm sharp in Long Beach about 20 minutes from NAMM. Details of the gig are on my MySpace page http://www.myspace.com/andyztunes . Or email me for any other info about em. If you go there's a pretty good chance Tom King from Atomic will also be there with me, so you might get some good amp chat going with him as well.

epluribus

01-16-2007, 04:27 PM

BURN THE HERETIC!!!!

:D:D

Ee's a weeeeeeetch! :roll

Been reading the Atomic parts of this thread with some interest as well. Got a bud on Brand X group who did the Atomic thing and then finally settled on a powered wedge of all things. Kinda makes sense when I think about it, as it's simply a small PA. His wedge is a Carvin, IIRC, with onboard volume and EQ, and he uses it and a small mixer for coffee-house gigs. Anything bigger he just uses it for a monitor (gasp) and DIs to the PA.

,,,So what's it gonna be, thumbscrews or Mr. Spock Sings Bad Space Songs? :Devil

--Ray

royd

01-16-2007, 09:31 PM

I'll be interested to see the info on some patches... and perhaps see it expanded to other modelers (I have a zoom g9).

Cthross

01-16-2007, 10:21 PM

Thanks for the read Scott. I followed your previous thread when you were deciding between the Tonelab and the Pod. I have the desktop model and use a Behringer FCB to control it through a Behringer GMX212 I believe it is called. I plan on upgrading to either a Carvin poweramp or possibly the Atomic amp.

I also now own the dragster as well and use it constantly with my Tonelab. I am quite interested in the XT Live due to it's vesatility, but have not brought myself to purchase this yet.

I am quite happy with the Tonelab and take your approach to setting up patches. Always start with the Clean ones first. If you don't you'll be playing catch up and your cleans will never be very clean. Rarely use reverb on these patches as they do take away from the 'live' feel of the tone.

One of my favorite patches on the Tonelab is using the Tweed Deluxe amp model and running it through the 2x10 blackface cabinet model. Gives you great country spank with a warm overdrive to boot. Makes me wish I had a tele.

Anyhow, thanks for taking the time and sharing great info. It's appreciated, even if it is about modelers.

:dude

-Chris

epluribus

01-16-2007, 10:32 PM

...even if it is about modelers.

:dude

-Chris

:D :D

aksman

01-17-2007, 02:09 AM

Cthross

01-17-2007, 05:56 AM

Hey now:)

I love my tube amps, but I dig the Tonelab as well. I forgot to say I run it into the poweramp on the GMX212 which is a stereo input that bypasses the preamp and allows you to use a different one. I run the Tonelab in mono into a Dunlop 10 band equalizer that has two outputs and run one output to the left channel and the other to the right channel. I usually leave it in bypass, but have it just in case I need to make any adjustments.

I prefer this setup to a stereo setup because all of my tube amps are mono and it's just the sound I prefer. The sound I'm familiar with. Making modelers work is possible, but it just takes... well work.

GuitarsFromMars

01-17-2007, 06:37 AM

Scott-this has been educational for me.I use a Two-Rock,and I am having Robin Amps building a 5E3 clone(another story,another day)and I have a fairly extensive pedalboard.Being a guy who is looking to 'lighten the load',so to speak,and although this variety of system doesnt sound like it would work for me at this moment,I gotta say that you were thorough in educating me to the process-thanks,dude-I will keep it in mind as an alternative to my current rigs.

Scott Peterson

01-17-2007, 06:53 AM

i use the xtl live with other pedals and only use the Vox and Matchless models for amps... dirt pedals and bypass for other tones.

so are you saying you'd stick with the XTL over others despite the money? what about the gsystem, etc.... the loops are appealing.

ALSO, anyone ever hear of modding the XTL for loops? not possible i bet.

For me, the XTL is my choice. I've owned the G-System, fantastic unit. Adds layers of complication (more cables, more "stuff" to carry, setup, worry about) that I don't need.

I do not see how you can "mod" a modeler like the XTL.

epluribus

01-17-2007, 10:43 AM

Ran across this on Scott's "How I Max Out My Modellers" thread. Thought Cthross had a key point for this discussion as well. Ever read the HC reviews about modellers, and notice how many of 'em gripe about finding "only" a few good amp patches? And how many more gripe about how "much" work they are?...

.... Making modelers work is possible, but it just takes... well work.

Seems like a simple enough point...till ya think about it. I like it.

See, if you get a conventional amp, you work with it and live with it till you find if there are some tones you really like. You'll try out different guitars, different pedals and accessories, till it does all the things you want. Somewhere in there my be a screwdriver or a soldering iron. And usually a few trips to the discussion boards. Most important, perhaps, is that we learn to live with the limitations for the sake of the sweet spot. (Then, of course, you GAS and start over again for no earthly explicable reason outside the gear community, but that's another post. :) ) But the point you bring up is about, among other things, focus.

With a modeller, it's different. You don't get one amp and go through an intimate courtship. It's like somebody stopped by the house and dumped off a whole truckload of amps, FX, cables, racks, mods, speakers, and an addition on the house to put 'em all in. (Only difference is that the neighbors won't see any of this and gossip about ya.:NUTS Yet.) Then just to be really devious, they throw in a little computer interface, cuz they know anything Windows is guaranteed to make a hairball out of trying to figure out what to do with all that gear. :messedup It doesn't help that many of us truly miss the experience of wielding the knife on the operating table, just to see first-hand how it works. Where's the creativity and uncharted territory in a dialog box?

Worse, being the GAS-breathing critters that we are, once you get started with something cool, the temptation to philander with one of those other pretty faces can be overwhelming. So compared to Guy A, above, how much quality time do you spend with any one "piece of equipment?" Do you really learn to play the DSP rig, make it an extension of you, discovering and interacting with the nuance like a you would single conventional rig? For a lot of guys, comparatively less so, (or SO) I bet.

Worse yet, Guy B has the age-old Harum Conundrum to deal with. How often do you choose one or two to really settle down with, and then have nagging doubt that you might have even more fun with one of those other lovelies? Does the distraction creep in right while you're making music?

The point here, that you bring up in your post, is focus. With a modeller, I suspect for most folks it's considerably degraded, with the end results suffering for lack of development as well. In the comparatively difficult environment Guy B has to deal with, it's not surprising that none of the rigs available become as rewarding, understood, and internalized as the single rig Guy A has.

Perhaps we're somewhat (!) more monampomous critters than we think, and that one huge reason people say they can't find any tone in a modeller is that they simply don't. Even though it's there.

Worse, how often do you read an HC gripe that an owner only found three or four "amps" in the modeller he liked? Three or four? Can you imagine your reaction if the truck guy dumped off even three or four? Yahoo! But because the box says a zillion, if we "only" get three or four, we're honked off. Go figure.

Check the discussion boards. You see pages and pages of stuff about any given amp, all it's quirks and traits and mods ad infinitum. But beyond trading the initial patch, how many pages do you see about the quirks and traits and mods for a virtual amp? (The nerd factor alone would be astronomical. :))

My contention here is that one big reason you see so many gripes about never finding tone in a modeller isn't because they're not in there, it's just that we don't. Much of the time, we don't look at it the same way, we don't devote resources the same way, we don't capitalize on it the same way. (I can understand having a torrid affair with a supple Tolex beauty, but how do you go Ga-Ga over a patch?)

One mo' thing...ever notice that most guys who dig their modellers have settled down with just three or four amps at most? Hm...

--Dr. PhilRay

Scott's thread on optimizing modelling, a great read: http://www.thegearpage.net/board/showthread.php?t=204896

epluribus

01-17-2007, 10:59 AM

Hey now:)

... Making modelers work is possible, but it just takes... well work.

The more I thought about it, the more I liked this observation. So I wrote a very windy post about it, cuz I think it's a big key to successful modelling...only it ended up being kinda OT cuz it's not really about the How-To of tweaking...exactly...so I posted it on the Witches of Salem thread, and put in a reference to this one.

I'm torn. :worried

If anyone thinks it belongs here, plz feel free to cut and paste. If anyone thinks it's better there and worth the trip, we'll leave as is. And if anyone thinks it's utter nonsense, better off there than here. :)

--Ray

Scott Peterson

01-17-2007, 11:21 AM

Hey, it's the Gear Page, we loooooooooooove long winded stuff. :D

I sorta went off on to this thread to avoid turning the "Witches" thread into the more "pro-modeling" "how I do this" that this one was aimed at.

9fingers

01-17-2007, 11:35 AM

One mo' thing...ever notice that most guys who dig their modellers have settled down with just three or four amps at most? Hm...
--Dr. PhilRay[/quote]

Excellent point. I have spent about 4 years now working with variations of the Clean Twin and Crunch models of the the GT-6 & now GT-8 and Strats. I and am getting to know pretty well how my guitars & amp react with my extensively evolved patches. I would hate to think what I would(n't) have if I had diluted all that time trying get a halfway there version of all the amps. It is a commitment, somewhat like tweaking with a nice amp and getting everything (types & brands of tubes, bias, mods, speakers, etc. etc.) just right.

(Oh yeah, & it isn't nearly as pretty as having a green Matchless or a snakeskin Soldano sitting there).

777

01-17-2007, 12:25 PM

Excellent post, epluribus. I can't add anything to that!

epluribus

01-17-2007, 12:57 PM

Hey, it's the Gear Page, we loooooooooooove long winded stuff. :D

Thank heaven for the Next button. :)

I sorta went off on to this thread to avoid turning the "Witches" thread into the more "pro-modeling" "how I do this" that this one was aimed at.

Makes sense. Also gives the issue you raise some much less-divided attention, and IMHO it's a crucial issue for would-be DSP users. So if I derail anything, at least it's a thread with me as the po'd OP. :BITCH

--Ray

Scott Peterson

01-17-2007, 01:41 PM

epluribus (http://www.thegearpage.net/board/member.php?u=9862) - damn straight. Well done!

That speaks to something that I didn't really cover at all, and I think you have an excellent point.

The other side of the same coin however is also interesting. Guys that have or in my case *did* have the amps being modeled. How close can you get with your modeler rig? I think this is THE issue for many of the tube snobs (hey, I am a tube snob too, so don't get offended!) and boo-teek guys around that flat dismiss modeling as "toys" and "not quite there" and such.

It speaks to us, as you clearly note, on different levels. To have a shiny glowing tubey amp in front of us inspires us as humans on a basic level more than a patch does in a modeler. Period. If it gets down to the A/B test, who wins?

I'd lay odds that 99% of the time the "real" one would.... but when you can twist, turn and take that "flavor" a million directions with a modeler, that - IMHO - can outweigh the "one trick magic" of a given amp. Even a great amp with a few killer tones can't really compare straight up past that "one" thing it does, even if it does a few of them.

If I crank my rig and go, I can have a helluva setup that - in real life - would take a wall of gear and a big-assed switching system and pedalboard. (Sorta like the pictures you see of Aerosmith's stage setups). And I can tailor those tones to my own ends, with only the limits of my imagination and the quality of the folks that modeled the setups.

I put my Atomic up on my Tone Tools 212 and cranked it all the way up for a few hours; I'll tell you it sounds/feels damn satisfying. And it has that powerful "thing" you get from a cranked bunch o' cabs, that animal thing that hits you in the gut and makes you smile. You need to push/move the air to do that, you can't get it in headphones. You need your chest pounded by sheer force of the volume of air in the room slamming into you, the powerful BOOM thing. I wasn't tweaking patches, wasn't looking for more of this or less of that, I was just playing. And having a ball.

It's there. For me. End of it? Would I walk away from a killer amp if I could have one right now, with no financial penalty? No way; but can I live with this rig for as long as I need to and use it in any circumstance and not feel somehow "less"? Yep. BOOM. :D

Scott Peterson

01-17-2007, 01:50 PM

I pulled Administrator's privilege and copied the posts from "Witches" here too; I think they work in both contexts and well, I find this whole thing fascinating and don't want the points missed from either side of the coin. :D

Desiknow

01-17-2007, 02:21 PM

Guys this discussion is going great.
You words are inspiring me AGAIN.

Keep it coming.

I got my Tonelab today. Just waiting on the Dragster and Atomic 112-50

Cthross

01-17-2007, 10:03 PM

epluribus (http://www.thegearpage.net/board/member.php?u=9862), loved the post. Was long, but definitely worth the read.

I find that with my Tonelab i enjoy almost all the amps modeled. Mixing and matching the different cabs can really add some different flavors. Such as not mixing the greenback cab with the plexi, but instead using the modern marshall cab. Really smoothes out the tone and also cures some of the woofiness.

To compare the real thing to the modeled thing is fair. I have a 100 watt plexi that sounds unbelievable. The model on my tonelab is accurate, not as immediate, but still quite good. However to jump from this, to the VOX model, which is awesome, and then to a *umble overdrive sound, while mixing in delays, chorus, reverb, ...etc., the tonelab makes it easy.

Models I like:
JTM45
AC30
AC30TB
Plexi
JCM800
Bout. OD
Bout Clean
Tweed 1x12
Recto (I use this for lo gain settings)

And I do get the same feeling through this setup as playing through a tube amp. Not at low volumes, but at louder volumes it still retains the punch and dynamics of a tube amp.

Cthross

01-17-2007, 10:11 PM

Compared to modelers I do prefer my tube amps. The snobbery is definitely there, but sometimes it's just so much easier to use the modeler than my different tube amps. Sometimes I just don't want to drag my expensive stuff out of the house and have it possibly broken or battered. You can be extremely careful, but sometimes IT just happens. It's these occasions when the modeler gets the call. At this point I have everything setup on the modeler that I don't feel I'm sacrificing much, if anything by taking this instead of some hand wired beauty. Well, except bragging rights of course, but this is where your playing should come in and speak for you. :dude

-Chris

epluribus

01-17-2007, 10:41 PM

Hey Chris.

Got an online bud (another pro FOH) who went from four years giggin' his CyberTwin to a minimal Dr. Z Maz 18 rig to a ToneLab. He still has the last two and switches back and forth like you do. I hear the same feedback from him--someday I hope to find a ToneLab owner around these parts and play one in battle conditions--you guys are makin' me curious.

As for diggin' analog tube amps, I share the appeal. (Grew up with 'em.) I too think they're truly different critters, and irreplaceable, but in some important ways I'm not sure we've entirely identified yet. I love the fact that we're weaving through so many of the misnomers in this thread and seem to be closing in on the brass tacks. Reminds me of the early days of the Solid State debate.

--Ray

epluribus

01-17-2007, 11:22 PM

If it gets down to the A/B test, who wins?

I'd lay odds that 99% of the time the "real" one would.... but when you can twist, turn and take that "flavor" a million directions with a modeler, that - IMHO - can outweigh the "one trick magic" of a given amp.

I think it was somebody around here who said the 5% you can't get is outweighed by the 125% you can get. Two things about A/B'ing.

I tried making my CT "become" several other amps early on, and true enough, it got about 95 - 98% there, but never over the top. But you discover, in learning what it can't do, what it wants to do. So that last 2 - 5%... you don't worry if it's identical, you tweak it to make it good in its own right. Now it's a moot point--is A 5% short of B, or is it the other way around? At some point you're better off letting A be the best A and stop worrying about B. A CT being a CT is a very cool little amp.

But the other thing about A/B'ing, that 125%. An online bud with a CT and a Dual Rectifier sent me his DR patch for the rectifier selector in the "tube" position. Seems the Fender DR preset didn't sound like his real DR in a live mix, the tonality was fair, but the dirt and pick dynamics weren't there. So he used the medium-stiff Blackface "Drive" section from the editing menu, and ended up with tone that was exceedingly close, but also an extra something else. Courtesy of the BF power section character, the onset of dirt was even wider, smoother, and more sensitive to the pick than his real DR. It also had a cool sag to it, different from (better than?) the actual amp. So his patch wasn't an exact DR, it missed that 5% for sure. It was an amp that gave all the dramatic impression of a DR in a live mix, but the feel and dimensionality was even greater than anything the real deal could do. That's A being the best A, the 125%.

If I crank my rig and go, I can have a helluva setup that - in real life - would take a wall of gear and a big-assed switching system and pedalboard.

I love this about the DSP world--all those toys the bankrolled acts had a monopoly on are now available to the average garage band. I really dig watchin' guys invent new riffs on the music--it's opened up the art form to a huge pool of creativity. I can put up with 5% easy if that's what it means.

But I still think the luckiest people learn on a good tube amp. Nothin' like axe-cord-amp to make you stand on your own two feet.

--Ray

Cthross

01-18-2007, 03:20 AM

But I still think the luckiest people learn on a good tube amp. Nothin' like axe-cord-amp to make you stand on your own two feet.

--RayAgree 100%. If there's a good player and they can play, using just guitar-->cord-->amp, I could listen all night without getting bored with the sound and have done just that. Conversely many guitarists hide behind effects and too much distortion which can lead to a L-O-N-G night of listening.

There are still plenty of good players out there taking full advantage of the DSP stuff today and creating awesome tones.

There's a local band that I enjoy watching and the guitarist uses a JCM900 2X12 combo and a Seymour D. boost pedal. Not the greatest tone in the world, but they play a wide range of covers ranging from clean to classic crunch to modern dist. and he does this with a total minimalist approach. It wouldn't be my first choice as a base tone, but he does an excellent job with it. :NUTS

I like the painting analogy. Black and white is good and there are many shades of gray in between, but sometimes a nice colorful painting is a feast for the eyes.

-Chris

JPenn

01-18-2007, 07:49 AM

Volume seems to be the real key to how real a modeller feels. It also seems to be the key to tube amps. If you play them at bedroom volumes they don't really "open" up. The speakers have to be pusing for the feel to be there.

I've used modellers for a long time. I used a Flextone Duo (which was the 1st generation) for 5-6 years. I got a chance to play thru it for a set this past weekend and it still sounds great to me. Because I used that amp for so long, I know how to tweak on it with pretty much any model it has. When I first got the amp years ago, I learned how to turn the noise gate off on it. That was the trick to get your guitar's volume knob to work with it.

Rock Johnson

01-18-2007, 09:22 AM

The Crate Powerblock is a surprising likable little thing. It works, and works well.
...
Simple. Cheap. Good!
...

I've always been a minimalist, a guitar-cord-amp kind of guy. For a long time, simply adding a wah was a big deal to me. Frankly, I'm not that good of a player to justify spending megabucks on gear.

Also, I've never been much of an amp guy. I could never get excited about a box. Intellectually, I know that OK Guitar + Great Amp = Good Tone and that Great Guitar + OK amp = Not So Good Tone, but I can't get excited about a box.

All this adds up to me playing mostly solid-state amps. They cost less, there's less (usually NO) maintenance, and for home use and home volumes, the tone was fine - not great, but at least okay.

Enter the Crate Powerblock and the Pod XTL. Finally!!!! An inexpensive rig that sounds good. I run a Les Paul -> PodXTL -> Powerblock -> Marshall 4x12 (likely soon to be exchanged for a 2x12), and it sounds good.

For a lot of us that aren't regular gigging guitarists, this is really an answer to prayer.

daddycam

01-18-2007, 09:24 AM

I have been using my XTL into the power amp of my Fender Hot Rod Deluxe for quite a while now. I also usually have a TS-9 in front of the XTL for when I want to goose things a bit, and now I've got a Bad Monkey and a Crunch Box to play around with. I have been thinking of going back to just some stompboxes in front of the amp, but this thread has got me re-thinking things again. I really haven't tweaked my patches much at all and use just 2 of them 95% of the time. Maybe I need to download some of your (plural) patches to see if anything grabs me. You know--a new starting point.

I always have mine set to Combo Pwr Amp which I guess still has A.I.R. on. Maybe I need to try it without that. I still have yet to try the buffer thing either. I find that the feel definitely does get better when I get it cranked up enough to get the power tubes (and maybe speaker/tranny) on my amp working.

Scott Peterson

01-18-2007, 12:20 PM

I am having issues uploading my patches to the ION Forum database, but in th meantime, here are some *truly* pro patches. Kill the verb and mess with the "mic/room" for live use.

http://www.robtognoni.com/line6.htm

His stuff - which he shares freely - just sounds fantastic. Check Andy Z's stuff too. Here's two guys making some real music, real tones with modeling stuff. And Rob's stuff is interesting specifically because he goes for those light OD/classic rock tones that are so hard to get. Rob's approach (and Andy's too) are different then mine are building patches. They use compression, gates, post-EQ and in Rob's case especially, lots of room and mic modeled tones. You can't argue with the results.... I can't.

It's such a deep and interesting thing all this modeling stuff. The guys that really get the good tones all do it slightly differently, which is the point. There are more than one way to skin a .... well, more than one way to get it done.

And with Andy and Rob, they are using the same thing to get there, with totally different goals/paths they are on. I use the same unit, approach it differently and dig what I am getting, but again sharing the same basic POD XT thing and doing "my" thing with it.

In the end, it's just like using an amp. Lots of cats use Fender's as a base tone. But you'll pick their stuff out in a few seconds because of the player. When the gear isn't "in the way" and instead is just a vehicle for musical expression (which IMHO is where too many folks get caught up, in the vehicle and not in the music itself) it doesn't matter. It's good.

I've talked in circles a lot on this thread, but have enjoyed the conversations and insight, opinions and thoughts shared. I just wanted to say thanks to everyone for making this what it is - a civil, in-depth conversation that is both meaningful and fun.

Keep it up!

dewman

01-18-2007, 10:40 PM

I am not a real tube amp snob. I love them, and play them, but many times have found great tones in digital modeling or solid state amps. I just picked up a powerblock amp and can easily see being too sick of hauling a head/cab and just showing up with the powerblock and going at it with maybe a few decent pedals in front. I guess my problem is that I always hear people never dial in great tones live with them. But my feeling is that it is equal parts lack of tone ears coupled with a general lack of education about how to get really good tones out of those amps. I recall going into a guitar store- one of my favorites, and one of the salesmen was pounding out this incredible rock tone on a valvetronix from VOx. We all hear these things in the store but never had I heard something so rediculously good- like a Bogner Ecstasy- just absolutely sweet rock distortion heaven. This guy just went to town for about three minutes of tewaking controls. He then cranked the volume up, way up, and then went back to cranking, then in a few seconds hit upon this combination that made my jaw drop. So it can be done- and I have had some great cleans from a Peavey Special 130 solid state amp. Distortion channel was a piece of crap- but the combination of 130 SS watts cranking into 1x12 speaker with a JBL-esque flavor to it- clean and high powered, meant cleans were deep and rich and very nice. I played more than a few gigs running a line 6 pod into that amp I can tell you!!

Turbo Gerbil

01-18-2007, 11:55 PM

For me the easiest way to get good tone from my POD XT/Live is to put it through full range powered PA speakers, in my case a set of Mackie SRM450's. That seems to require the least amount of tweaking to get good sound out of it for me, and I don't have to worry about what it sounds like coming out of a PA. It's a bit wierd to be "pushing air" with PA speakers instead of a guitar cab, but it works and sounds good.

I seem to be addicted to the Chemical X model.

Cthross

01-19-2007, 06:10 AM

For me the easiest way to get good tone from my POD XT/Live is to put it through full range powered PA speakers, in my case a set of Mackie SRM450's.I'm very curious about trying this approach as well. Ideally I'd like a Carvin power amp, I like the fact that they are class A/B, and try running through some PA speakers. Or maybe even the modeler speakers that Eminence makes. I'm extremely curious to hear this.

And all this talk of the POD XTL has really got me thinking. Maybe I should try this out. Or maybe just a POD XT and then use my MIDI board to control this as well. Then I could run the tonelab through one side of the power amp and the XT through the other into 2 2X12's. Or a stereo 4X12. I bet that would sound pretty good. Course then the simplicity thing is kinda out the window, but I bet the sounds one could get would be pretty cool. :AOK

Jarick

01-19-2007, 11:15 AM

Scott Peterson

01-19-2007, 11:29 AM

Out of curiosity, would a buffered pedal be in any way similar to the Dragster?

I remember trying a Bad Monkey (1M input impedance) in front of my PODxt when I had it, and I liked it better when it was one but didn't know if there was a difference bypassed.

Sorta and not at all. :D

A buffer will change your high impedance signal to low, which negates the loss of high end from capacitance (lots of pedals, long cables). It alters your tone, many feel in a GOOD way, and feel but doesn't load your pickups in the same way that the Dragster does to the best of my knowledge. So, it works, but all buffers are not equal and some like this one over that one.

The Dragster won't change your high impedance output to low impedance; and it doesn't cut loss of highs; it loads the pickups. Just that simple. And it is very simple, there isn't much to it... but the key here isn't that simple or complicated is better than the other (buffers are not complicated either); but the Dragster is a simple thing that works.

So a buffered pedal or input of some sort will change how your guitar sounds, and feels, to some extent. But it does it in a different way than the Dragster does.

I hope that makes some sense.

glenecho

01-19-2007, 01:11 PM

I'm glad I found this thread. I'm in a jazz/fusion trio and just last night I had a rather large argument with my bass player about my PodXT based rig. For starters, I play a PodXT straight into the line-ins on a Roland VGA-7 (a modelling amp in it's own right but it only gets used as power and speakers). The VGA-7 is a full-range amp (2x12 and 2 tweeters...stereo combo...PERFECT for a POD). I knew it would sound good as I used to use it to drive synth rigs and it sounded as good or better then any keyboard amp I had ever used.

Up until last night I thought this rig sounded GREAT. It took a lot of tweaking but I feel my PodXT patches sound great at this point. They're sensitive, pleasing to the ears, sound tubey, cleans are clean (the way I want them)...etc. Also, I have played through a 68 Marshall Plexi as well as a Blackface Fender Pro...both of which I still own...so I know what tube amps sound like. I have always been very picky about my tone. I get major compliments about my tone from everyone...have had many tell me it's the best sounding rig in this town of 100,000 and without fear of being labelled an egomaniac...I happen to agree. Only comments I heard to the contrary were from a soundguy who told me before even hearing it that "that Line6 modelling stuff all sucks"...so he's already got his mind made up.

Last night my bass player...a fantastic player in his own right...confronted me that I need to buy a new rig. He stated that the PodXT rig was BS and was digital garbage and said "C'mon man...nobody plays through that...". I was really hurt. For one thing, I don't know if he just has a bad opinion of the rig because it REALLY doesn't sound good or if the mere fact that I'm all solid-state just gives him a notion. He wants me to buy a Mesa or a Rivera or some such thing. I don't want them...I've tried Mesas and have never liked them. I LIKE the sound I get...the audience seems to like the sound I get. I can't afford a 3,000 dollar amp, but this guy is really flipped out about it. Although it may sound babyish...the situation is upsetting. He now has me wondering if I even know what good tone is...something I was always quite confident about. Really wierd...

I don't want to go back to tube amps...even my Marshall and Fender. For one thing...they are now collector's items (as opposed to when I first played them in the 80s). For another thing, I don't want to have to deal with tone/eq/electricity/tube/reliability finickiness ANY MORE. That was the reason I switched in the first place. And finally, and up until now I've never cared what anyone has said about this, I truly think my current rig sounds JUST AS GOOD. Yes...I know that "solid state amps don't cut in the mix" and all that. I've experienced that in the past and always agreed. But this rig is different...it does. Really confused because now I feel like my bandmate hates my rig and it's making me self-concious. I really don't want to go back to tube-land...I'm not a GAS guy...I hate changing gear. My philosophy is that the more you change your rig the less your chances are of being able to tweak and find it's strengths and nuances. I don't take gear changes lightly.

Not sure what the point is...but any comments/suggestions are good. Only tube amp that has perked my interest in recent years is the Randall RM100 series and that is because they are convertible. For what I play I NEED flexibility. I don't want a big pedal rig...I don't want to dance around on pedals...with my current rig I can go from dirty w/delay to clean w/chorus WITHOUT stomping on two switches.

Turbo Gerbil

01-19-2007, 02:33 PM

"C'mon man...nobody plays through that"

sounds kindof like somebody's been telling him that "real" guitarists don't use digital or something. The interesting thing is that solid state amps have been standard practice in Jazz for sometime,and fusion guitarists seem to be all over the place. Maybe you need a rack and tell him you are emulating Frank Gambale or something. ;)

Seriously, if you have been playing with him for a long time and he's had time to listen to the rig for a while and now he's saying that, maybe he's hearing something he doesn't particularly like. If you've only been using the rig for a short time or haven't played with this guy for very long maybe he just has a bad attitude about digital.

Anybody that just says that "digital is crap" or a variation of that isn't listening, they are speaking from their own biases. Cuz digital certainly isn't crap, especially when you take the time to learn to use the equipment, which is no different than any other amplification technology.

vulcaniza P

01-19-2007, 02:55 PM

screw the bass player... what does the audience think?

Scott Peterson

01-19-2007, 03:26 PM

Sweeping generalizations are often disguises for ignorance and fear. I suspect there is something amiss in his head. :D

Look, one of my best friends is a bass player and I play in a lot of project with him. He is a total pro level guy, astounding musician. He is also a gear hound, as obsessed with tone and gear as anybody on the earth. He has told me, straight up, that whatever rig I seem to use (and he has seen/heard *quite* a few of them from me) have always sounded good. My "digital" rigs too.

That's my gut. If it sounds good to you, it is good. Simple as that.

Turbo Gerbil

01-19-2007, 04:06 PM

and try running through some PA speakers. Or maybe even the modeler speakers that Eminence makes. I'm extremely curious to hear this. :AOK

The modeller speakers are supposed to be flatter response, but they still arn't full range. Arn't those speakers basically used in the Line6 cabs?

I've wondered at times if there would be a market for full range cabs that look like guitar cabs instead of PA cabs or keyboard amps. I think alot of the issue people have with using PA speakers is that it doesn't *look* like a traditional guitar rig. I've thought of giving the Raezers Edge extended range cabs a try as well, or just using a good acoustic guitar full range amp.

Cthross

01-19-2007, 04:44 PM

If the dragster is loading the pickups do you think the MI Audio Boost-N-Buff would do the same thing? It has a 5-meg-ohm input impedance to load the pickups before sending out the low impedance signal.

Already have the dragster, I'm just curious.

BozoTone

01-20-2007, 01:07 AM

"...Hi, my name is BozoTone, and I am a tube-aholic..."
My forum name of "BozoTone" IS derived from the way I have been trying to get good tone (to my ears) from a POD 2.3. To make it sound "natural". I been fightin' it for 5 years. I have tried some crazy set-ups, hence, Bozo.
My best results, so far, have been from running The Bean into the EFX return of a 2001 Peavey Classic 30 (the speaker is WELL broke in). The EFX return puts the signal back into the amp just before the PI tube. I have rolled many a tube in the PI and power tube positions, again, trying to get the natural tone of the amps modeled. The PI make more difference than the power tubes and I have settled on a '58 TungSol 5751. The 5751 addresses the "harshness" of the DSP right off the bat. All of the discussion of gain structure/EQ curves is so right on.
I have two different "set-ups" from the POD. Banks 1-4 are set up to be played "loud". POD output at 11:00 and up. I turn off the AIR, turn off the CAB Sim. (on 95% of the amps, or will change to an "odd CAB" to get some charateristics the EQ doesn't) and only use the tone controls that were on the original amp. IE: the Deluxe did not have a mid control so I set it at 12:00: the Tweed champ did not have any tone controls, so all POD tones are at 12:00. Banks 5-8 are set up to be played at bedroom volume, so the AIR and cab simulations are used. Most of the "dial" (factory) presets sound pretty good...a bit fake and over-hyped, but ya need that at "just over whisper volume".
The speaker issue has always been very easy/simple to me. I want to know what a Twin/Tweed Bassman/Champ/Deluxe/"you-get-the-picture" would sound like thru a let's say a "Greenback" (I would kill to have one of Jims' SA12M55's in this amp)...a real guitar speaker. None of us now, or in the past, have played thru a stereo/HiFi speaker, so, thru a flat/non-coloring speaker or thru a full range monitor or PA would sound so wrong...we are back to over-hyped/fake.
The Atomic system has interested me for some time. My problem with that is if the modeler dies, what have you got??? If my modeler byts (pun intended) the dust, I still have the front end of a real amp..I still got noise. The cost of the Atomic also is in the range of several good tube amps with EFX loops.
To Scott and all: thanks for all the well though out and hashed out solutions. Having someone like Scott spend the time to do this and post his results lends a lot of credibillity to the subject....so I have several questions:
Is the POD XT a better sounding unit than the 2.3?
Is the Atomic 112-50 a great answer, and can or do I need to roll the PI?
I consider myself "hip"...(LOL)...and understand most terms used here and in the schematic world, but what the hell is "loading the pickups": (in reference to the Radial Dragster). I thought digital HATED hot input signal.
Is the Radial Dragster a huge piece of the "natural sounding" puzzle: IE...Do I need one???
Cheif CrazyTone (aka: BozoTone, aka: BZT)

Turbo Gerbil

01-20-2007, 01:19 AM

how exactly are you guys turning off the cab and air on a per patch basis? I see how you can do it via the global output option ( ie, direct, out to power amp, etc ) but the only thing I see ( using Gearbox or Guitarport at least ) is a way to change cabs and move the mic, but not shut it off. Do I need a different librarian for that?

Cthross

01-20-2007, 06:46 AM

Is the POD XT a better sounding unit than the 2.3?

I have this version as well, the old 2.x, and it is pretty much collecting dust. I'll still use it from time to time, but the Tonelab is just so much more appealing to play through. I've only dabbled with the XT a bit, but I also have the Bass Pod XT for comparison. Just from using this unit the answer to this question I believe is Yes. The XT is so much more versatile and has so much more to offer. Course if you like the 2.x version more who am I to tell you whats what.

Also, while I don't think the dragster makes that drastic a difference with my Tonelab as it does with Guitarport or my other POD's, it is part of the recipe for creating a usable solution to the modeling issue. And at $49, or whatever it was, it's not that huge an investment. It can also compensate for buffers of lesser quality that change the original tone of your instrument. At least this is one of the suggested usages on the package.

-Chris

Scott Peterson

01-20-2007, 09:26 AM

Here is my thoughts/opinions on some of the questions asked:

- Is the XT version of the POD better sounding than the 2.x series?

Without question in my opinion. But the answer depends on what you want/expect from the unit. POD 2.x is much more "plug-n-play"; you dial things in much faster because there are not as many variables to work with. It is more of an "apporximation" of the modeled sounds, than a straight up "clone" of the modeled sounds. That's relative to the modeling world and Line 6 in particular here, not a universal sweeping truth. Some of the best sounds from the 2.x series are so good, "accurate" or not, that in the 3.x series of the XT version, they have added back some 2.x models. In effect, Line 6 modeled it's own models. Frightening. :D

- Is the Atomic 112-50 a great answer, and can or do I need to roll the PI?

It is my answer and it is honestly fantastically suited to the job at hand. On the PI question, that's dicey. The phase inverter tube is not in the tone circuit, It makes the "see-saw" drive voltages that properly drive the output tubes.

From www.tubefreak.com :

A phase inverter divides a signal into two. One signal is the positive side of a sinus wave, the other is the negative side of sinus wave. This is done because most guitar amps run in a Class A/B mode. This means that one (set of) power tube(s) is responsible for the amplification of positive (up) side of the sinus wave and one (set of) power tube(s) amplifies the negative (down) side of the sinus wave. If you would have an unmatched phase inverter tube,you'll get a deformed sinus wave. Which gives you a harsh sound. http://www.tubefreak.com/sinusok.jpg
a nice sinus wave http://www.tubefreak.com/sinusbad.jpg
a deformed sinus wave
The problem of an unmatched phase inverter can be solved a bit when biasing the power tubes, but it's not an ideal situation because it requires a qualified technician with proper equipment to undo the deformation. Because phase inverters have a big influence on the sinus wave it's always import to change the phase inverter at the same time you change your power tubes.

So what you are hearing, or sensing IMHO isn't the tone qualities of the tube, but one that is better matched to your output tubes and bias setting. IMHO!

- I consider myself "hip"...(LOL)...and understand most terms used here and in the schematic world, but what the hell is "loading the pickups": (in reference to the Radial Dragster). I thought digital HATED hot input signal.
Is the Radial Dragster a huge piece of the "natural sounding" puzzle: IE...Do I need one???

It isn't a device that adds any gain at all to the pickups. It just lets the circuit in the guitar "see" the load they like, and were designed to see when they were created. Think of it as a box that allows the pickups to sound like they were designed and built to sound. Without it, in my experience, devices like modelers and wireless units make my single coils - which sound incredible into an amp - sound thin, lifeless and make the timbre "flat" feeling. With it? My (WCR) single coils I fell in love with long ago sound/feel right. It's just that simple.

- how exactly are you guys turning off the cab and air on a per patch basis?

With the POD XT, you can simply turn off the cab modeling per patch. I do it universally with the "output mode" setting. If you have something plugged into the headphones out on the XT, it forces you into "StudioDirect" mode which does not allow you to turn off the "AIR", but if you bypass the cab ("No Cab") it shuts off the "Mic". (It also sounds like poo if you do that IMHO).

Desiknow

01-20-2007, 09:51 AM

Scott Peterson

01-20-2007, 10:02 AM

Scott,
when talking about the dragster you mention single coils every now and then.
Do you feel it is more suited for single coils rather than humbuckers?

I am asking 'cause I am more of a LEs Paul guy than anything else.

Because that's where I notice it the most. Humbuckers (higher output ones) have never seen to have this problem. Lower output humbuckers and single coils sound lifeless when played clean through a wireless or modeler in my experience, that "plink-a-plink" thin, 2-D sound. It's timbre has no life, no bounce, just feels flat.

Now on the flip of that, the Dragster doesn't stop a good sounding humbucker from sounding good at all. I just don't notice the "effect" of the Dragster so much.

Now to conclude on this... roll off the volume pot on your humbucker that sounds great without the Dragster and you'll hear most any wireless or modeler sound thin, scratchy, grainy and that exact "plink-a-plink" thin timbre I am talking about (real far down, like 2-3 on your guitar's volume pot). Now add the Dragster to it and - BOOM - the tone is there, full of harmonics and life even down that low.

It's what I hear/feel/believe.

Kewlpack

01-20-2007, 03:03 PM

Great thread Scott/Epluribus, etc.

I love it when folks dig in and truly discover methods for making all these MFXs work in a real setting! ;)

I would add another +1 to the Atomic AR112-50. I have one also and it's sweet for MFX amplification.

I've had the XTL so many times in the past... I had given up on it. But since getting the Atomic, I'd really like to try an XTL again. I'm just gun shy about it though...

Right now I've consolidated all my gear down to:
TLSE + Atomic
Randall RM50HB + inexpensive 1x12 cab (w/Plexi & Deluxe modules)

The TLSE/Atomic sounds pretty much just as good as the Randall, and can do many more types of tones. The Atomic makes that possible. To the point I'm wondering if I'll hang on to the Randall (though it does sound SWEET!). :confused: Ergh!

Just thought I'd pop in and agree, I guess. :)

Tone_Terrific

01-20-2007, 04:04 PM

Now to conclude on this... roll off the volume pot on your humbucker that sounds great without the Dragster and you'll hear most any wireless or modeler sound thin, scratchy, grainy and that exact "plink-a-plink" thin timbre I am talking about (real far down, like 2-3 on your guitar's volume pot). Now add the Dragster to it and - BOOM - the tone is there, full of harmonics and life even down that low.

It's what I hear/feel/believe.

Really? It makes it like you have the perfect treble bypass, where the tone remains consistent as the pot is rolled all the way down?
That might be a major feature on its own.

Scott Peterson

01-20-2007, 10:29 PM

Really? It makes it like you have the perfect treble bypass, where the tone remains consistent as the pot is rolled all the way down?
That might be a major feature on its own.

+1

And that's the beauty of it beyond it's use with single coils (my main concern). It's a great little tool for under $50.

fr8_trane

01-21-2007, 02:34 PM

I set it up to the “Combo Front” output mode, with -10db bass, 800Hz mid focus, and flat highs. (For the Roland Cube, Combo Front, -20db bass, 480Hz mid, -20db high). I'll vary those output settings based on the room though – it's a fast and very good quick universal EQ.
Hmmm...everything I've read on the line 6 forums says that the Atomic is meant for "studio direct" output. However, the logical output mode seems to be the "combo power amp". The one advantage to "combo front" is that it turns off the mic simulation which means one less layer of crappy digital EQ. However I feel that the "front" modes also have some built-in EQ compensation that can't be turned off. I guess my question is - did you try studio, front and power amp modes and then determine that the combo mode just sounded best? Also due to the massive low end from a sealed ported cab wouldn't the "stack" modes be more appropriate?

Scott Peterson

01-21-2007, 02:45 PM

Hmmm...everything I've read on the line 6 forums says that the Atomic is meant for "studio direct" output. However, the logical output mode seems to be the "combo power amp". The one advantage to "combo front" is that it turns off the mic simulation which means one less layer of crappy digital EQ. However I feel that the "front" modes also have some built-in EQ compensation that can't be turned off. I guess my question is - did you try studio, front and power amp modes and then determine that the combo mode just sounded best? Also due to the massive low end from a sealed ported cab wouldn't the "stack" modes be more appropriate?

Yes I have tried all the modes of output, and each works differently with different models of amps. For instance, the Bogner XTC sounds great with the Studio Direct mode "on"; but pretty poopy in all the other modes. For some things, I prefer the "Stack Poweramp"and others, the "combofront". It's a matter of taste. In the end, use your ears. Nothing else matters but what *you* think, not me or anyone else.

Desiknow

01-21-2007, 05:15 PM

Scott,

I got a little confused with the last post or two, which setting do you like using with your atomic rig?

Thanks!

Scott Peterson

01-21-2007, 05:30 PM

Scott,

I got a little confused with the last post or two, which setting do you like using with your atomic rig?

Thanks!

The honest answer is: Depends Depends on the gig, the room, the tones I need. I have been exploring the output setting and liking the Stack Power Amp more and more. Remember that this is a process, not a set rule. Everything is up for debate, and nothing is written in stone.

Baconator

01-21-2007, 07:50 PM

It is indeed refreshing to see people (especially on this forum) working tp get stellar tones with low to moderately-priced gear. This thread is especially timely for me since I just picked up an M-Audio Black Box yesterday. At $205 Canadian I figured it was too interesting NOT to try one out.

The previous times that I've tried modellers myself I have consistently found that the best tones to be had are from running them through my bass rig. It's not that the output is lacking in low end, but instead that my bass head is likely far more neutral sounding than pretty much any guitar amp out there (with the very possible exception of the Atomic stuff). Similarly, my bass cabs have been relatively uncoloured as well on the verge of monitor quality. As much as I like the sound of an SVT rig, I certainly wouldn't expect them to fare well as monitors. My bass rig is not quite like that (currently a Euphonic Audio head and Epifani cab).

I'd be interested to hear an Atomic setup. A guitarist I've played with that has very discerning ears sold his trusty Boogie Mark IV combo to fund the purchase of a Vetta combo. Out of the box it sounded ok, but with time he was able to coax some great sounds out of it. Unfortunately, it never seemed to have the 'authority' of the Boogie. Perhaps a tube power section would have helped in that regard. I realize that 'authority' is a pretty useless term, but it's difficult to describe what was lacking - just something about the low mids that didn't seem right. It's almost the same feeling I get when listening to most of the new 10-15 pound 500-plus watt bass heads out there. They sound good, but something's just not quite 'right'.

What is interesting is that when I recorded an album with the same guitarist the same rig sounded about as good as any mic'd guitar rig I'd ever heard. It was certainly a refreshing experience to have the two guitarists (one with a Vetta, the other with a PodPro) and me all going direct into the board. The final product worked out very nicely.

It will be really fun to delve into the Black Box. I bought it primarily as a practice tool and to be able to play around with Garage Band, but I can see myself using this quite a bit. Some of the pre-packaged sounds are pretty good and the relative lack of flexibility is somewhat of a blessing for me in that I don't have to worry too much about getting lost in the details :). What I do find somewhat funny is that while I think some of the models sound quite convincing, the only guitar amp I currenly own is a Boogie Mark IIC+ and the Black Box model is not even close IMO.

Now that I've rambled on all this time I don't see that I've added anything to the discussion - sorry :messedup. Thanks anyways to Scott and the others that HAVE brought some interesting points to light :).

Scott Peterson

01-21-2007, 08:22 PM

I have a Black Box - fascinating little box. Recording - it's a dream. Live? Mmm, not IMHO.

Just IMHO.

Scott Peterson

01-22-2007, 12:01 PM

I spent quite a few hours this weekend trying lots of configurations of rigs to see where I am at. This is just an update.

Here's what I have at hand to work with:

Melancon Custom Artist and Artist "T"
Line 6 POD XT Live (I have two, they are clones; one is for backup)
Atomic Reactor 50-112
Roland Cube 60
Crate PowerBlock
JBL EON G2 10" powered monitor
Tone-Tools 212 (Guytron Big Tone 55)
Tone-Tools 112 (Guytron Big Tone 55)My goals were to have an "A", back up "B" Rig for 1) bigger shows, 2) medium shows and 3) small shows (and rehearsals). Rock band, country band, Soul/R&B/Rock genre's.

I messed with running my patches:
Contrast/compare different cabs & combinations of the amps (Atomic, Crate and Roland along with/without the Tone-Tools cabs). Sort of a mix-n-match buffet.
Output settings and volume levels on the amps vs. output on the XTL,
No cabs in the patches vs. cabs in the patchesIt was quite the journey, and the high decibel levels on the bigger rigs had my ears ringing and my family screaming at me through closed doors. :D

I could spend the next couple of hours documenting the entire process, but I don't have a few hours to spare (this is my lunchtime post while I eat). So I'll just post my results.

As a caveat, this is my opinion, my thoughts, my findings. YMMV.

Rig A: Atomic Reactor 50-112 on Tone-Tools 212. Measured 118db at about 6 feet away. Pushing lots of air. Big sounding, Cleans were magnificent, had to dial back the bass on the heavier tones. The balance between the more efficent Tone-Tools cabs (and the Guytron speakers therein) and the brighter highs and deeper ported lows of the Atomic was by far the best combination here. Really physically satisfying to move air like that. Caveat? Would have to mic the amp on the gig. No biggie for me.
Rig B: Atomic Reactor with Tone-Tools 112. Still can get up on the decibel meter, but less air was physically pushing, Would work even in the rock band on a fairly bigger stage. Only caveat is the Tone-Tools is too small to put underneath the Atomic and had to go on top. The more efficient and louder Tone-Tools (as compared to the Atomic) made the overall tones seem slightly darker as compared to "Rig A"
Rig C: Crate PowerBlock into either of the Tone-Tools cabs. For stuff up into the lower 100's db-wise, the tone was great. This will be the rehearsal rig. At higher volumes the tones are more "strident" and "grainy"; it's classic solid state vs. tubes in the end after all. Not surprising; but what was surprising was the end result of the Crate/Tone-Tools tones were actually exceptionally good until pushed VERY loud.My patches are not set up for the EON's full range, so it just doesn't work. In the past, using patches I did set-up for it, it just doesn't have the power to push enough air to keep up with a band. Works fine for self monitoring when you are right up on it though. I still use this as an onstage monitor when I do acoustic shows (Variax 700 - Radial JDI - EON; XLR out of EON to FOH).

A lot of experienced modeler guys will immediately ask me why not just run a line out of the XTL to FOH instead of mic'ing the Atomic? Here's my answer: the output "mode" on the XTL that works the best for me in the end is the "Stack Poweramp"; for some reason that setting REALLY likes the ToneTools cabs and the overriding concern for me is tone/feel. It just sounds/feels the best.

As a back to all gigs/rehersals I will be putting the very trusty and handy Roland Cube 60 in the car. It has always done a great job, works well with the Tone-Tools cabs, but just doesn't do everything on the level the Crate (using the Line In and bypassing the preamp section of that little amp) does for my measure of pleasure - the tone. I've used nothing but the Roland and one of the Tone-Tools cabs on a few shows and never had any problems, so that'll be the go-to "fail-safe" backup. The XTL sounds good through it using the "Combo Front" output mode, with -20db lows, 480hz mid-focus, and -20db highs (depends on the room though, I adjust to taste as sort of a universal EQ when needed).

So I have a back up clone to the XTL if that goes down. I have the small and very very light Crate Powerblock to back up the Atomic; and the Roland Cube 60 I can leave in the car "just in case". My total outlay for gear is less than the cost of simply the amp head of my prior more boutique setups.

And the tones are fit to the type of gig better. I don't go for hundreds of patches per gig, I do what fits and can create things that "have" to be there for whatever songs I "have" to have them for (U2 songs need Vox and delay for instance).

It's good stuff. And I'm ready to go now.

Cthross

01-23-2007, 12:48 AM

A guitarist I've played with that has very discerning ears sold his trusty Boogie Mark IV combo to fund the purchase of a Vetta combo. Out of the box it sounded ok, but with time he was able to coax some great sounds out of it. Unfortunately, it never seemed to have the 'authority' of the Boogie. Perhaps a tube power section would have helped in that regard. I realize that 'authority' is a pretty useless term, but it's difficult to describe what was lacking - just something about the low mids that didn't seem right.

I've been over to the Line6 forums to see if the Vetta would be a wise investment. The impression I had was that the preamp on the Vetta is great. Higher sampling than the POD's and better feeling to play. The gripe that most people there seemed to have was that the heads and combos were equipped with unsatisfactory power amps. The approach everyone seemed to be taking was using either the PODxt Pro, or the XTL and use the power amp of their choice.

This is ideally what I would like to do with my Tonelab and in the future possibly the XTL. I did A/B a XTL and the new Zoom unit with the two tubes. I played these through headphones using a mediocre Ibanez and decided I don't really enjoy playing modelers through headphones. I'm not crazy about playing my Tonelab through headphones either. When the signal is run through a poweramp and speakers however... well it can be very addicting.

Design Guy

01-23-2007, 01:26 AM

Scott, Epluribus, AndyZ, et all...

I can't tell you how fascinating I've been finding this thread! As someone who works closely with modelling gear, I'm intrigued by the solutions you guys come up with to your particular problems regarding solid state & modelling equipment. I'm not in a position to address the technical issues you encounter on your quest for tone (as you well know), but I truly appreciate all the time and energy you put into your rigs.

It's easy for me, as a non-gigging, guitar-strumming hack, who is spoiled with gear to lose sight of the struggle you guys always seem to find yourselves engaged in. I think it's incredible that guys like you take the time, not to sort out your own rig, that is expected, but that you take the time to share your findings with anyone willing to listen. :BEER

I can't speak officially, but I for one appreciate the level of support you offer to musician's the world over, in regards to making things "work". As always, if there is anything I can do for you, don't hesitate to shoot me an email (you've still got my address I suspect). :)

AndyZ, it was great seeing you, however briefly, at NAMM this year!

Keep up the good work guys. This kind of discourse is exactly what makes the Gear Page great!!! :AOK

D <- Going back to guitar lessons tomorrow! :RoCkIn

Desiknow

01-29-2007, 09:05 AM

Atomic Users!!!

Do you select Line or Amp on the output of your XTL to go into the back of the Atomic 112-50?

Scott Peterson

01-29-2007, 10:52 AM

Atomic Users!!!

Do you select Line or Amp on the output of your XTL to go into the back of the Atomic 112-50?

Depends on the volume level needed.

I for one prefer the amp all the way up; just feels and sounds better to me. I use the level control on the XTL to control the overall volume. For at home stuff and just practice, I usually use "amp" level; for rehearsal and gigs - "line level".

TieDyedDevil

01-29-2007, 02:06 PM

Very nice- I had a similar history, and ended up on the Roland side- I use JBL Eons to amplify the GT-Pro (I like the GT's '2 amps at once' feature), but I am also mixing it with guitar synth, piezo pickups and looping devices. So my signal leaves the preamp, and gets mixed with the others in a Mackie mixer.
No, since I am not playing covers, it doesn't matter to me if I replicate classic sounds- in fact, I don't think I have even tried. But it works, wighout having to carry tons of different amps and speakers for the different signals.

Interesting. I just bought a GT-8 along with a Yamaha STAGEPAS 300 (a tiny 40-pound PA with a built-in powered mixer). I play solo guitar, so don't need (and for the kinds of "wallpaper" gigs I play, can't use) the kind of volume that's necessary to keep up with a drummer.

I spent an hour in the store the day before the purchase fumbling my way through the controls trying to figure out whether the GT-8 would get me into the right ballpark for the sounds I wanted. Then I spent a couple hours later that evening familiarizing myself with the manual (online) and then four more hours in the store working with this rig to make sure that it could do what I want before I bought it. I sat there in the middle of the floor with all the gear hooked up and manuals in hand, learning how to use the gear to get the sound and behavior I wanted... (That's one of the true benefits of having a relationship with the people at a local music store - you don't get lumped in with all the tire-kickers and bored kids that frequent the big-box store.)

I now have one patch that's good enough. It sounds good, responds well to the way I approach the instrument and has all of my favorite effects available. I can live with this. And maybe seven hours (total) is a steep learning curve compared to a five knob amp. But then it's a curve I only have to climb once. I can (and have) tried out a lot of five knob amps that I wouldn't want to play. And what of those three billion other potential patches? Well, they didn't cost me anything and they're not taking up any space. If I get bored, there's cheap inspiration readily at hand.

A desire for portability is what pushed me toward modeling this time around. Small tube amps simply can't create the sound I want. Big tube amps (and by that I mean a pair of 6L6s pushing multiple speakers) sound great to me, but I'd rather not carry them. And then there's the pedalboard on top of everything else. A luggage cart helps, but having less (weight and bulk) to carry is better.

If I want to play somewhere that already has a PA I can walk in with guitar in hand and GT-8 - all ten pounds worth - in a shoulder bag. For other small rooms I can carry the PA with my free hand. That portability is a big deal for me.

The important thing with this rig is not that I could create and store 140 patches, but that the rig can produce a sound and a feel that I can use to make music. Does it sound and behave exactly the way my favorite amp - a Vibro-King - sounds and behaves? I doubt it. And I don't really care. What matters is that this rig sounds good and accommodates my playing style - I don't feel like I'm fighting the rig to express my music. Sure, the nuances are going to be different, but so what? I've learned over the years that I can get a good performance out of a wide range of rigs. Nuances be damned... so long as the rig is competent I can adapt. I'm interested in playing, not in performing A/B comparisons.

Cary Chilton

01-29-2007, 03:09 PM

Cool Ideas! I got a Roland Cube 60 free and installed my scumback in it for better rock sounds.... I just plug my stage hog into it for my tubey sounds. The Roland Cube 60 is a FINE amp. Plus there are lots of effects, for convenience of jamming at home. I find the CUBE is making play the guitar more often since I can get decent OD tones with some wet effects in 1 second! THat convenience is a push to practice. A welcome thing for me because I never practice often if at all.... I might pick up a POD, too, maybe for live , but probably for the times when I can't mic my amp for recording.

Ben F.

02-01-2007, 12:08 PM

Late to the party, but congrats on your versatile tone solution, Scott!

FWIW, I sure would like to hear your take on the Pritchards - if you've tried any....

-Ben

Scott Peterson

02-01-2007, 12:12 PM

Late to the party, but congrats on your versatile tone solution, Scott!

FWIW, I sure would like to hear your take on the Pritchards - if you've tried any....

-Ben

I have not tried any Pritchards - but have heard a lot about them.

Desiknow

02-01-2007, 01:06 PM

well, I got in my atomic 112-50 and I can't believe it, REALLY.

I did not think it was possible.
I am having to close my eyes and try to forget its a modeler.

The ATOMIC makes it happen.

I am still in shock, I will return soon with a long-winded update.

PS- whats a Pritchards ?????????? Nothing on Google

moseskim

02-01-2007, 01:22 PM

Hey guys, before I got crazy about tube amps and analog gear I first looked at all these portable modeling solutions. I ran across this great site:

The Stompbox (http://www.thestompbox.net)

The guy who runs it (Kewlpack) knows a lot about vintage effects and has used quite a bit of them as well. He's got lots of good suggestions and a really good breakdown of all the best modelers out there and where they sound good (and bad). Worth a look!

-Moe

epluribus

02-01-2007, 03:20 PM

Great site isn't it? 'Preciate ya sharin' the link, lotta folks'll love diggin' around there--always worth reminding people it's there. Terrific place for us DSP guys. If Kewlpack is tuned into this thread, I'm sure he'll be glad to know you it worked for you.

--Ray

Hey guys, before I got crazy about tube amps and analog gear I first looked at all these portable modeling solutions. I ran across this great site:

The Stompbox (http://www.thestompbox.net)

The guy who runs it (Kewlpack) knows a lot about vintage effects and has used quite a bit of them as well. He's got lots of good suggestions and a really good breakdown of all the best modelers out there and where they sound good (and bad). Worth a look!

-Moe

ButchR

02-02-2007, 09:27 PM

Scott-Very interesting post. I have a POD XT Live and just haven't taken the time to tweak like I should. This thing totally makes sense in my situation because of the variety of music that we play.

I'm gonna send mine for you to tweak!:)

epluribus

02-02-2007, 10:54 PM

Depends on the volume level needed.

I for one prefer the amp all the way up; just feels and sounds better to me. I use the level control on the XTL to control the overall volume.

Great point, this is a keeper for sure.

The Cyber Twin is rather well-known for this as well--keep the patch volume down if you must, but let the power end of the amp run hard and let the amp breathe. Interesting experiment if you build two patches, one to run that way, and one to run the opposite. At identical overall SPL, the one with the MV turned up has tons of "amp" presence, the air moves like it should, and the dynamics in the attack, EQ, lower harmonics, all come very much alive. The other method, patch volume up and output volume down, melts into the mix and disappears, just the way many people gripe about DSP.

Got a bud with a VAmpire that does this as well, and I just turned a guy with a Line 6 stack onto it today, (who discovered the same thing). Glad you mentioned it.

Output volume--IMHO it's a biggie in getting the most out of DSP sound.

--Ray

Incidentally, running the power section of a Cyber Twin cold will also make the amp very spikey and harsh, especially when you get the 12AX7s drivin'. Fascinating how Fender gets the tubes to saturate even at low patch volumes so you can run the back end hot. The secret to ear comfort is turning the MV up. How's that for counter-intuitive? :messedup

Desiknow

02-03-2007, 06:42 AM

epluribus

02-03-2007, 08:55 AM

Man I got a 112-50 watt last week and got everything setup up during the week.
We just had band rehearsal last night and I am so sold.

I am coming from a boutique amp/pedal background playing Andersons, LesPauls, Tele's, and Strat. (all real deals)
Main amp- Tophat Ambassador
Pedals- Too many to name

I don’t play metal or blues its more of a modern pop/rock thing. Very U2, Coldplay, Radiohead, REM, etc. ( I only mention this because I will read a great review and get all excited, then I will go to the guys myspace or YouTube, whatever, and its nothing of what I am going for.)

I have had 3 different XTL’s in the past. I have always wanted a solution like the XTL to work for me.
I want to be with the cutting edge of technology. I don’t want to be a tone snob but the digital stuff just wasn’t cutting it.

Oh yeah...I did the whole Vetta thing about 8 months ago and that didn't work out either.

…Until NOW!!!
Taking the advice of a fellow poster I turned off the mic and AIR.
‘Cause now I have my own air and will mic the Atomic.
And now since I am not dealing with tubes on the preamp side, when the sound guy says I am too loud it won’t effect my tone that much if any, when I turn it down.
The Atomic Amp makes it happen. I feel like I am playing the very amp the unit is supposed to be modeling. I have to close my eyes at time to make myself believe.

I did not get lost in the mix AT ALL last night.

This is incredible.

Finally.

This was fun just readin' this. These breakthrough moments--hard to describe. But when you just know a rig has great cajones in it, and it takes sooo long to break the code, that finally getting there is such a rush. Bet the family is wondering why you keep going back and playing with it.

Then you revisit all those cool old patches that you wanted to like but never clicked, and you find the mojo in 'em. Like finally getting that new toy that's been in the store window teasin' ya forever. I love it.

:dude

...I want to be with the cutting edge of technology. I don’t want to be a tone snob...

Sounds like an identity crisis to me. :)

Scott Peterson

02-03-2007, 10:22 AM

Here's something to try, in the process of learning this entire rig I have (XTL - Atomic) I have stumbled into "it". I'll put this rig up in a Tonefest now. :D Yea, it's that good.

Put the "Output Setting" to "Combo Poweramp". That turns off the mic and AIR sims.

Then use whatever amp you want to, but use the "Line 6 212" cab sim. It'll sound bright at first basically no matter what cab sim you were using before. Then adjust the knobs on the amp model and use your ears.

Wow. BOOM. Almost every amp model in this thing is entirely usable and deliciously good now. For heavy stuff, check the Diezel Herbert amp. Man. Wow.

Here's the "why" if you will. Armin, at http://www.soundside.de/index.htm does a whole slew of mods for different modelers. One is the Vetta, which as we know (or don't yet know, but are about to learn), shares a lot in common like the models and process with the XT series from Line 6. Armin's cab models for the Vetta are based on the weak XLR direct outs in the Vetta, which are pretty much universally hated in relation to the POD XT's. Armin did a series of cab models that are much smoother curves. Check this for some reference:

http://www.vettaville.com/sonicsurgery_tamingthattone.htm

http://www.vettaville.com/vetta_frequency_plots.htm

You'll see that the "Line 6 212" cab is essentially flat; and that my friends is the key to my little "eureka" moment with the XTL and Atomic.

What I had to do was to take my own advice and wrap my head - again - that a Marshall doesn't *have* to have a 412 cab sim with it, a Vox AC-30TB doesnt' *have* to have a Vox 212 sim and so on.

The "key" is to have a flat response and use the eq in the amp model to find tones that kill.

And man, these are great sounds.

Wow.

Desiknow

02-03-2007, 04:54 PM

Scott,
so your with the combo poweramp setting and not the stack power amp?

Does the Combo poweramp have an er/tone correction? I don't have mine in front of me.

Scott Peterson

02-03-2007, 05:05 PM

Scott,
so your with the combo poweramp setting and not the stack power amp?

Does the Combo poweramp have an er/tone correction? I don't have mine in front of me.

Yes to your first question, but try them all and use your own ears.

No to your second question; both the Stack and the Combo "poweramp" settings have no tone correction settings. But they all turn off the "Mic" and "AIR".

aksman

02-06-2007, 04:50 PM

if using multiple pedals before the PodXTlive (and 1 after) like the board in my sig (which will have a clean-ish boost soon and maybe a timmy that's been on order), where would the Dragster go???

Desiknow

02-06-2007, 05:04 PM

AKSMAN, is your current rig the one with the XTL or XTPro?
Either way, KOOL!

Scott Peterson

02-06-2007, 08:17 PM

The Dragster is the first thing your guitar sees; it would be the first thing on your pedalboard to plug into.

BozoTone

02-07-2007, 12:09 AM

I accidently stumbled onto the Line 6 2X12 sim. about a month ago when trying to find a cab that worked with the Plexi. I never would have thought to put it with any other models until Scott mentioned it and jolted my memory. Last night I ran thru several of my presets and brought up the L6 2X12 and it sounds/feels good on 90% of them. For some of the smaller amps, like the Tweed Champ, I still prefer "no cab. sim." because they feel to big with any cab....
BZTweeker

aksman

02-07-2007, 12:09 AM

Thanks! the most current is the one with the Micro Synth in the pic.

It has the PodXTlive 'cuz i didn't want to be tied to my amp-case if using other people's rigs.

Downside, it was SWEET being able to use the "fx loop" switch on the Shortboard to trigger my Micro Synth, keeping the Micro Synth on top of my amp and away from my feet.

QUESTION: i think i need a dragster, but when i bypass my Pod (since it's in a bypass loop), is the dragster going to give me a different guitar tone than when the pod's engaged?

Scott Peterson

02-07-2007, 07:02 AM

QUESTION: i think i need a dragster, but when i bypass my Pod (since it's in a bypass loop), is the dragster going to give me a different guitar tone than when the pod's engaged?

You would not put the Dragster in the loop, it would not do anything there. You need to plug your guitar into it; before your amp, before POD, before anything else... or it doesn't do anything. It won't change the tone per say, it will change the timbre a touch and it will add the "feel" back if that is missing.

I think you are missing my point about the Dragster; you don't use it to change your tone at all. It was created to load the pickups when using a wireless; I found the same thing holds true when plugging into a modeling unit. It was created to load the pickups, expressively for use with a wireless unit. That's why I bought it. On a lark, and in a moment of inspiration, it hit me that the same thin tone I found on every wireless I also found on desktop and floor modelers, especially in relation to the top end and feel of the timbre of the tone.

So I plugged it in and put it in front of my POD XT and BOOM - the bounce, tone and overall responsiveness of the pickups was there... where it wasn't before. Not so much with humbuckers, that was never an issue if they were turned up to 10 on the volume pot on the guitar; but on the single coils. As an added bonus, I noticed that when you roll off the volume... the feel and response from the POD XT was markedly better. By a tremendous margin.

VinceM

02-07-2007, 11:21 AM

Scott - This has been a great discussion about getting a good live tone out of the PODxt. I struggled for a long time with getting a good tone out of my Roland ac-60 acoustic amp so I didn't have to bring two amps to my coffee shop gigs. The key for me was using the Bose live setting, probably due to the more full range speakers.

Anyway, I tried the Line6 2x12 cab and it definitely works nicely - it clearly removes the weird artifacts due to the cab sims. But then after looking at the cab freq responses I'm wondering - what's the difference between using the Line6 2x12 and just selecting the "no cab" option? It seems to me that they should be the same thing. I'm just trying to understand what's going on here. Line 6 sure has left alot up to the player in figuring out how to use this thing!

Vince

aksman

02-07-2007, 11:57 AM

Scott Peterson

02-07-2007, 12:19 PM

Scott Peterson

02-07-2007, 12:22 PM

Scott, I meant that my pod is in a bypass loop, so when i put the dragster into play (right after my guitar), if i bypass the pod, the dragster is going to mean that my sound will change when compared to when the pod is not bypassed, right?

Depends on your setup, but if the Dragster is in there, it does its thing. POD, loops, whatever in/out. It's not a massive night/day thing keep in mind. It makes a big enough difference to me.

hotraman

02-07-2007, 10:21 PM

Scott and Andy;
Just discovered this thread... after I put an order in with Tim for a Reactor 112 50 watt. Like most of us, I use a modeler, but was never happ with the tone.
Tried a powered Mackie 450. a Roland KC 350 ... good gear, but not quite there. Plus I play a taylor T5 thru a Tonelab SE. Andy's clips along with some postings from www.stompbox.net convinced me to buy. I am really looking forward to this amp.
Keep the comments coming!
Steve

slotools

02-08-2007, 10:53 AM

I too was tired of lugging multi-head rigs and so I bought an atomic 1x12 60 watter-but I was kinda wondering if the pod xt pro and fbv has anything over the xtl- not neccessarily features, but sound and feel (I would think it would be pretty much the same, but someone should have experience) I know this is a question best directed at line 6 forum, but know the mighty gearpages have Yoda wisdom.
Funny this is, I have hated modelers for years but dusted off the XTL and downloaded the latest software, and having a ball with it. I used the XTL last week through my Fuchs TDS and it killed at low volume-so the Atomic should be fun.

Turbo Gerbil

02-08-2007, 12:37 PM

I just picked up one of these bad boys as a general purpose amp for acoustic and my POD/XT Live:

http://www.genzbenz.com/pics/models/shenpro_lg.jpg

Genz Shenandoah Pro. Its got a preamp tube that you can mix in, which really does help to warm things up a bit. So far I like it. And pyschologically I feel more like I'm playing an amp than when I use my Mackie SRM450. :)

rockinrob

02-08-2007, 03:49 PM

This thread is a great read! :BEER

I'm looking for a mutli effects/modelling unit for live use. I'm planning on going straight through the PA, so I don't have to worry about using it through an amp, and maybe latter on I'll consider something like the Atomic amps. Right now I have a POD 2.0 which I like a lot, but I need more effects/presets.

Anyway, do you guys have any experience with the Boss GT-8 (especially Scott)? I was at the local GC and tried it as well as the POD XTL, and to be honest neither sounded too hot, and the Boss had some nasty harshness I couldn't dial out, but it didn't sound like it was in the amp sims, it sounded like it wasn't hooked up right. And this was with all the presets as well as manual tweaking. Of course the salesman was clueless...

I've read so many reviews and done so many searches on different forums, it's really frustrating. It seems like no matter what you choose you're going to need to play with it and dial it in. Ideally I'd order both and then return the one I don't like, but I don't have the scratch for that.

epluribus

02-08-2007, 04:12 PM

I've read so many reviews and done so many searches on different forums, it's really frustrating. It seems like no matter what you choose you're going to need to play with it and dial it in. Ideally I'd order both and then return the one I don't like, but I don't have the scratch for that.

Have you been to Kewlpak's website? The link to his DSP Shootout, below, is a great read, right up your alley...

http://www.thestompbox.net/ViewArticle.aspx?ArticleID=21

Yeah, you're right, these things require quality time, some of it in gig conditions to really get the measure of it. If you get one initially via EBay, you stand a good chance of selling it for roughly what you paid for it, minus one round of shipping, and maybe a box.

Also addictive and fun...

--Ray

Dave_C

02-08-2007, 04:13 PM

Hi Scott,

The only modeling combo you mentioned was the Valvetronix, but I wondered why you didn't investigate more heavily into the combo approach. That would theoretically address the mic/cab/speaker/poweramp issues you discussed, under the assumption that the designers took all those factors into account when putting the pieces together. You like Line6, so have you compared their latest versions of the Flextone and Vetta (for example) to the rig you're using now? And, for the versatility you seek for all those genres, there's the new MIDI tube amps like the H&K Switchblade and Marshall JVM 410. I know those solutions limit the voices available, but it seems like you cold at least get the programmable gain ranges you need. I'm running a Fuchs TDS with an RJM Amp Gizmo (for MIDI control) right now as my main rig and it's the first time I've ever been able to get all my distortion tones without OD pedals out front...and the tones are killer...no compromises. So, I'm just curious if you've experimented with any of these other approaches. I personally have not, so that's why I ask.

Thanks,
Dave

My approach to modeling and making it work

I thought this would be a good thing to share, I've been working hard on this for a number of years. I'll start with this, I've got nothing to sell, so don't come after me for hyping anything. I am just in search of something and think I have gotten pretty close now.

First a slight return; I play in a lot of genre's especially in the past few years. I've been in rock bands for most of my life of one form or another (classic, modern covers; original roots rock, Lilith Fair-era chick rock), country (more modern country than classic); pop/soul, blues/jazz/rock hybrids, old school funk covers and modern pop/smooth R&B stuff. It takes a lot of top end gear to really cover that range of stuff. I've owned and played a lot of stuff. From full-on custom ordered guitars (Thorn, Melancon) to top-notch production guitars (Hamer, PRS, Tom Anderson, Parker and lots more) to the cheapest imports that I won't detail; to hand made pedals to production pedals; from amps that cost $4K (Germino, Bogner, Matchless, Guytron, VHT, THD, Rivera, Dr. Z, Koch, Fender, Marshall and on and on) down to the cheapest solid state boxes. I've got a lot of passion and an obsession with tone/feel/response, but I am not in any way snobbish about how you get there. I've got good musical ears, and have done FOH, engineered in studios, mixed and ran a mastering business for a few years. That all said, this isn't me bragging or telling anyone what to hear or how to hear it, it is just me sharing some thoughts and backing it up with where I come from. You do not need to agree with me, and I am not looking for a fight.

After lugging $3K heads and $800 speaker cabs, needing a $2500 pedal board and boutique cables, a AC line conditioner and regulator and playing $4000 guitars for bar gigs, you could say I am a little crazy. Or stupid. I've heard both. But it matters to me. So there. The weight, the cost (and risk) and the sheer amount of gear you need to reach the highest levels of what works for the player it matters to... well, it's left the door open for that simpler, smaller and lighter solution. Enter solid state and then as an extension, digital modeling.

Solid state amps can be very good. The Tech 21 Trademark 60 is a great amp. The Crate Powerblock is a surprising likable little thing. It works, and works well.

I've tried the digital route extensively, I've owned all the POD's from Line 6 (version 1.00 to XT 3.01); owned the Vox Valvetronix 212 combo, the SE foot pedal version; the Korg stuff and messed with the Boss/Roland end of that world.

So I've hit a phase in life dictated by finances where the high end stuff all has been sold (other than my Melancon guitars, I can never part with them). I am in a position to find a solution for all the different types of gigs I might be called on to play, but cannot justify holding thousands in gear simply “in case”. So choices had to be made.

I've tilted towards the Line 6 stuff, because I have felt all along that their approach was the one that fit me best. Their stuff sounds good totally stripped down to the amp/cab level. To me.

I've been working with the POD XT Live for a long time. Looking at my insurance riders, I've had it since fall of 2004. In that time, I've worked hard with it, gigged it, recorded it, loved it, hated it. It is still here, and now I am “stuck” with it, so I've sort of rediscovered it.

For all the good that is in there, there have been some very frustrating issues dealing with it. If you've spent any time at all with a modeler, you know right away that they are not plug-n-play units, you need to reset your brain and approach the thing like it is your entire rig; invest the time and energy you need to in order to get your whole setup together and working together. You cannot just plug into it and have your fantasy Marshall amp right there in your headphones. (Well, you sorta can, but it takes work).

My main knock on all these units has been the “feel” thing. That's pretty universal. I have noticed over time that the folks who most object to the tone of modelers are guys that play single coil guitars, strats, teles and the sort. Heavy metal and rock players using humbuckers are far less likely to speak up about the “feel” thing (though they do!). I've tried buffers before and after the input/output; lots of things. The one thing that did it far better, and for far less bucks(!), is the little Radial Dragster. I bought the thing for my wireless, and it does what it says it does. It loads the pickups. They respond right, and the output and timbre of the pickups comes through. No more tinny, tiny, plinky-plink cleans. The “body” and “pop” is there. Kudos to Radial, and yes, I've emailed them about this application of the unit. It's funny a) they didn't consider it a marketing angle; and b) that the modeling crowd out there hasn't gone nuts on it. I Velcro it to the XTL, off to the side and run a George L to the input of the XTL. Simple. Cheap. Good!

I've always in the past fought the seeming universal acceptance in the modeling “world” of the “mic/AIR” simulation; if I want a live amp, I don't want speaker and/or “room” coming out of the speakers on the amp. Direct? Sure. Through an amp? No! Even on regular amps with reverb, I've always been a non-reverb, dry tone guy. I want the richness and fullness of tone from the hands, strings, guitars and amps. Not reverb. Back to a live sounding amp, not a mic'd “AIR”'d sounding amp; I've gone a lot of ways with this, from using powered PA speakers (JBL EON G2) to keyboard amps. Flat out, something in those simulations always seems to irritate my ear to no end, bugs me and grates on my nerves. The modeling world has workarounds extradinare out there – from using full blown EQ solutions to guys creating mystery boxes that completely shift the output to tube buffers. All good ideas, good workarounds that are creative and effective. But why not just shut off the stupid “mic/AIR” thing and use your own mic and room? That always seemed the solution to me. With the newer firmware versions of Line 6's XT's, you could now switch that off. That helped me to no end in what I was chasing. For all of the coloring that guys will spend so much time and effort working around, all I have to do is turn that **** off and I've got my workaround.

Now how do you amplify the thing?

Enter the Atomic Reactor tube amps. Now, past the PA output solution, I've tried tube amps (front of the amp, into the effects return), straight PA power amps, the Crate Powerblock (surprisingly good) and the Roland Cube 60 (slightly thin and 2D, but man, it works in context). In regards to other output sections using other amps, the speakers were almost always not right for the job. The tonality and color from the cab simulation was already there, so the clash of the these colors just didn't work. The Roland Cube 60 was the little combo that really woke me up to this, that speaker really works. But there is another solution that takes it further.

I had one of the original 18watt combos that Atomic put out, and I really liked it. A lot. But the 18watt output spl level didn't leave me with enough headroom on stage for the cleans. And the intrinsic character of EL84's works for a lot of things, but didn't fit for me on certain tones I needed. This past summer/fall they shipped a 50 watt 6L6 version of the amps. They feature a ported sealed back and 200 watt capacity speakers. I have a 112 50 watt version and it does the job perfectly. It does color the sound... but it just sounds and feels right. I need to mic it and put it on a stand aimed at my head to keep up with the guys in my rock band (hard hitting drummer, bassist with a 300watt all tube SVT head and an 8-10” speaker cab, other guitarist with a Marshall 100watt head and Marshall 412), but it can and does hang. I haven't had a shot at using it on other gigs yet, but based on my rock band experience, I fully expect it to do fine. (That's been the acid test for a long time – if my setup can hang with this band (I've been with these guys on/off for a long time). The other guitarist has had the same setup for a LONG time, and his tone is fantastic. If my setup can hang with his, I know I have something real.

So what I am looking for out of the XTL and why would I actually start liking it again?

It's small, light and I've set it up completely based on what I want from an array of not only an amps, but my whole rig. I've got silent tuning and tap tempo to sync up delay and modulation to the song. I have a volume pedal and a wah on every channel. I have a 6db (or whatever I choose) clean boost on every preset (I use the compressor and set the threshold to 0db, boost to whatever I deem and have it switchable on the “amp” button on the XTL). I have two XTL's, and with the software it is a cinch to keep them both updated and virtual clones of each other in case one goes down for whatever reason.

I like Fender Twin, Marshall Plexi, Vox AC-30TB, Matchless DC-30 and Roland Jazz Chorus cleans. That covers me in most any situation.

I like Fender Tweed, Marshall Plexi, Vox AC-30TB, Matchless DC-30, and similar “pushed” cleans/light OD tones. Again, covers me for most any situation I face.

For heavier music, I like a range of tones stretching from driven Vox, Marshall Plexi to JCM 800 to Soldano, Diezel and Bogner XTC Crunch. For more modern stuff, the Mesa Rectified stuff and the Bogner Uberschall work for me.

If I need a special setup for a given song, I can program it in pretty easily and just have it ready to go. No tap dance.

Add the Radial Dragster and the Atomic Reactor 50-112 and there you have it. (I have the Roland Cube 60 as the back up on the gig). I set it up to the “Combo Front” output mode, with -10db bass, 800Hz mid focus, and flat highs. (For the Roland Cube, Combo Front, -20db bass, 480Hz mid, -20db high). I'll vary those output settings based on the room though – it's a fast and very good quick universal EQ.

Most guys not interested in this stuff stopped reading a long time ago, but if you did read this and follow, then that's my “tone” map. No massive post EQ, no hidden magic. I tend to EQ the amp presets starting at noon and like to cut more than boost. With the Radial, my output setting and the Atomic, the presence control is usable on all the presets.

That's how I got this thing working for me now. And it works well. Kudos to Andy Z for inspiration and his wealth of experience, to Tom King at Atomic for having a vision and the balls to pull it off and to the guys sharing presets out there that I've broken down, studied and learned from.

Peace.

rockinrob

02-08-2007, 04:35 PM

Have you been to Kewlpak's website? The link to his DSP Shootout, below, is a great read, right up your alley...

http://www.thestompbox.net/ViewArticle.aspx?ArticleID=21

Yeah, you're right, these things require quality time, some of it in gig conditions to really get the measure of it. If you get one initially via EBay, you stand a good chance of selling it for roughly what you paid for it, minus one round of shipping, and maybe a box.

Also addictive and fun...

--Ray

Yes, I've been to that site many times, and have followed kewlpak's posts on the various boards. Good stuff!

One issue is I'm sort of in a time crunch- I need to have this set up ready to go in a couple of weeks. I have an "in" and can get at least the POD XTL at a hefty discount, and possibly the GT-8 as well. Ideally I'd get both and return one, but I think they'll need to order the Boss and I would feel tacky having them return it, especially after getting a discount. And again, I don't really have the dough to get both, even if I'm going to sell/return one later.

Ray, have you tried the GT-8?

Scott Peterson

02-08-2007, 04:44 PM

Scott Peterson

02-08-2007, 04:49 PM

Anyway, do you guys have any experience with the Boss GT-8 (especially Scott)?

I have tried it at the store, for extended runs with it.

If you think the learning curve is steep with the Line 6 XT series, then you shouldn't even bother with anything made by Roland. :D (sarcasm).

You can get great things from the GT-8 and a lot of guys know that thing inside/out. I found it frustrating to navigate; but that's me.

The Digitech stuff (on the higher end) gets lots of good reviews too, but I am just more comfortable with Line 6.

It's just my opinion and YMMV. What I do/say/talk about is just my take on it, not being any sort of authority on it and not trying to be.

Just talking shop from my perspective is all.

megalowmatt

02-08-2007, 05:37 PM

This is still a great thread! I have had great results with the Tech 21 Power Engine and a POD XTLive using pretty much the same approach Scott has taken in crafting tones.....all out of a solid-state setup. One thing that helped me develop tones was to get out of the mindset of the amp "models". I *know* Line 6 modeled numerous amps and named them appropriately, but if you keep an open mind and try many different amp/cab combinations, you can have some great results. In other words, I did not expect the Plexi to sound exactly like a plexi, an AC 30 to sound exactly like an AC 30, etc. I have also found that the Line 6 2x12 & 4x10 cabs pretty much sound great universally.

Scott, thanks again for starting this thread and thanks for the tips & tricks that resulted from your many hours of trials.

rockinrob

02-08-2007, 06:10 PM

I have tried it at the store, for extended runs with it.

If you think the learning curve is steep with the Line 6 XT series, then you shouldn't even bother with anything made by Roland. :D (sarcasm).

You can get great things from the GT-8 and a lot of guys know that thing inside/out. I found it frustrating to navigate; but that's me.

The Digitech stuff (on the higher end) gets lots of good reviews too, but I am just more comfortable with Line 6.

It's funny, I've been on the GT-8 forums and really got nervous because the programming seemed so complicated. But I actually had an OK time in manual mode- it wasn't too hard for me, besides the fact that I couldn't get the harshness out, which may have been user error. Then again I wasn't doing anything complicated, just dialing in sounds. It seems that people either think the GT-8's interface in intuitive or the POD's is, but rarely both. Odd, huh?

I was just wondering what you thought of the sounds on the Boss unit. I'm not worried so much about the feel- even though I'm a vintage tube amp guy there are some things that are cool about the way my POD feels through the PA. With this group I'm hooking up with, most of the sounds are clean, funky stuff that sounds and feels good through a modeller- that compression or plinky-ness actually helps. And all the overdriven sounds are intentionally cheesy, so I don't need the super organic tubey feel for this stuff.

Also this band has most everything sequenced/prerecorded, so using a modeller makes sense as it should fit in the mix naturally.

It's just my opinion and YMMV. What I do/say/talk about is just my take on it, not being any sort of authority on it and not trying to be.

Just talking shop from my perspective is all.
Oh, don't worry, I take everything with a grain of salt. :cool: It's just that I've heard your stuff and know what kinds of things you're going for, where as you can read some other reviews and you don't know if it's from an old pro or a 13 year old kid (most often it's the later).

One thing that helped me develop tones was to get out of the mindset of the amp "models". I *know* Line 6 modeled numerous amps and named them appropriately, but if you keep an open mind and try many different amp/cab combinations, you can have some great results. In other words, I did not expect the Plexi to sound exactly like a plexi, an AC 30 to sound exactly like an AC 30, etc. I have also found that the Line 6 2x12 & 4x10 cabs pretty much sound great universally.
That's something I learned when using the POD 2.0 and can really help- don't use it for what it should sound like, use it for what it does sound like.

epluribus

02-08-2007, 09:48 PM

Ray, have you tried the GT-8?

Not yet, let me put it that way. I'm in the small minority who's had great luck with the CyberTwin combo. The only pedal I "need" for it is an FCB1010. (BTW, no matter how great the cab sims, it has the distinctive personality of a very stout 2X12. Extension jacks are a huge improvement, but makes for a very bulky rig. DI'd, however, is where they live, IMHO.)

That said, I'm keepin' my ear to the ground on user opinions of the GT-8 as well, as I seem to be moving back into basic tube amps these days. I love the notion of hefty deep-edit. If nothing else, I find these multi-function units to be excellent previews of different rig architectures that can save you a ton of primrose paths when you go to buy the real deal. And in the case of the CT, it's a terrifically real deal in itself.

One other thing on the GT-8. I understand they're great multi-FX boards, but you don't seem to hear of tons of people buying them for their amp sim power, as Kewlpack points out. I hear a lot more about Pod XTs and ToneLabs.

...for what that's worth. :)

--Ray

Dave_C

02-08-2007, 11:05 PM

I've owned the Valvetronix, and the Roland Cube 60. That's it for modeling combos.

I have messed around with the Cyber-Twin, the Flextone (I, II, and III), the Yamaha DG (60 watt), the Johnson (when it was out), the Roland (big huge massive heavy thing), and the Vetta.

The Flextone just wasn't as flexible, and feature filled as the POD. The Yamaha sounded great, but was very heavy and somewhat limited. The Johnson had some good tones, and some not so good ones. The Roland was very cool, but excessively heavy. The Vetta was all that, but very expensive.

In the end, I built my rig around what I had and what I can afford. It's that simple. I am getting some very happening and very hip tones and lots of feel. I've gotten addicted to the extension speaker (for me a Tone Tools Fat Cat with Jensen Neo 12") cabs with the Atomic. It's a fantastic mix. Powerful and the tone/feel/vibe of the entire rig is working very well for this well heeled boo-teek lovin' guy.

I have not felt the need to look for more/better. I don't have the need for it, I am getting everything right now with what I have. The further I dig, the deeper the rewards with this stuff. Line 6 gets a bad rap for some good reasons, but if you dig into this enough and keep an open mind, you can get amazing results. I approach every patch like an entire rig; you gotta spend the time with all the elements to find that magic brew. The neat thing with all this is that you can have a lot of magic brews once you spend the time.

The Cyber-Twin, and other newer tube/midi stuff is indeed interesting; but I don't have the time or money to start a whole new learning curve when I am already where I want to be.

I hope that makes sense.

So...the Vetta was all that? What did you like about it over everything else (except the price)? Kinda' interesting you mention the Vetta. My bassplayer rarely talks tone, but came to rehearsal the other night absolutely raving about the tone this guy got with a Vetta II at some function with his wife. Said it was one of the sweetest guitar tones he's ever heard. So, that comment has stuck with me. The only Vetta I ever heard was from a guy who used way too much 'verb and sounded totally buried in the mix, so I don't have a good example. Never plugged into one either. Maybe I should try one.

Scott Peterson

02-08-2007, 11:16 PM

So...the Vetta was all that? What did you like about it over everything else (except the price)? Kinda' interesting you mention the Vetta. My bassplayer rarely talks tone, but came to rehearsal the other night absolutely raving about the tone this guy got with a Vetta II at some function with his wife. Said it was one of the sweetest guitar tones he's ever heard. So, that comment has stuck with me. The only Vetta I ever heard was from a guy who used way too much 'verb and sounded totally buried in the mix, so I don't have a good example. Never plugged into one either. Maybe I should try one.

I like everything about the Vetta, except the weight and price. I'd rather, honestly, have an XT and Atomic setup. It's the tubes and the ported cab; really makes this whole adventure come alive in a way I like.

9fingers

02-08-2007, 11:54 PM

I used a GT-6 for 3 years & now a GT-8 for over a year. The presets are virtually 100% awful. I don't know who comes up with such crud. You can't judge the GT's at all by them. There are great sounds, including amp sims, in there. Also with the GT's. "output select" makes a huge difference in sound quality. They (GT-8 especially) are amazing machines & will go as deep as you are willing to go with them. I can't speak for the other brands as I started multis with the GT's and know how to work them well enough now that I don't want to start with a new platform. If you don't like to learn, explore & tweak they are not for you. They are NOT plug & play.

I have found that Hadley Hockensmith's Harmonic Converger between the GT-8 & amp makes a huge difference in regards to tube amplike feel. I now wouldn't play a GT without it. (I have the model that goes in the loop of the GT-8). I have played Strats through tube amps for over 35 years and am more than satisfied with what I am getting with this rig.

I use a somewhat unconventional approach in that I run the GT-8, then Harmonic Converger, straight into the front of a Reverend Kingsnake (amp set on UK mode). I have tried it into full range amps, tube power amps into good speaker cabs, effects return on tube amps (bypass the preamp), 4 cable method, etc. l get the best feel, dynamics & "sing" by using the tube pre and power sections of a good amp. I do keep the amp drive way down, using it as a clean tube amp with the drive coming from the GT-8.

So, I obviously find the GT-8 to be a great machine, incredibly deep & flexible, & yes, good dynamics are possible too. I think, as with any multi or pedalboard, less is often more. The best sounds do not come from maxing out the preamps & OD's. It is easy to overdo with so much power but tone is in restraint. I also think it best to stick with one a two amp models & really learn & tweak them, at first anyway. I think if you go all over the map you may not get the best of any of the amp models.

One guy's experience only!!

epluribus

02-09-2007, 12:05 AM

The only Vetta I ever heard was from a guy who used way too much 'verb and sounded totally buried in the mix, so I don't have a good example. Never plugged into one either. Maybe I should try one.

'Nother thing I love about DSP. If you have a good sound man, bring your laptop (with a GUI for the digi-amp) to the sound check/rehearsal and let the FOH build your patches into the mix for you. The GUIs are so intuitive that it takes all of about five minutes to figure most of 'em out. Once the FOH gets a grip on what everybody's rig can do, together you guys can tweak up your entire patch selection just for the room and the gig. Guys'll flip when they find out what you can do for 'em.

Not, however, for the faint-of-heart school of "soundman." In that case, hide the laptop, and better yet, don't tell him it's a modeller at all. :)

--Ray

TieDyedDevil

02-09-2007, 12:12 AM

I'm keepin' my ear to the ground on user opinions of the GT-8 as well

I said some things about the GT-8 a couple of pages back:

http://thegearpage.net/board/showthread.php?p=2061932#post2061932

What I didn't say here is that I put my Vibro-King and my Twin Reverb into storage. (I run the GT-8 through a portable PA.)

You can also find my preliminary GT-8 review on HC and some discussion on FDP and BossGTcentral.com - all under the same handle.

I can relate to the comments about the GT-8 being intimidating. The manual is complete, but it just lists the features without telling you why you'd want to use them. It took me a while to climb the learning curve, but now it makes perfect sense. It's not so much complicated as it is modular, and you have to figure out for yourself how all the modules can interact. The upside is that it's an amazingly flexible system, and that you really can do a lot of stuff with a limited understanding. Put a little extra effort into really understanding it though, and you can do some serious programming...

I picked the GT-8 because I thought it met my needs the best. But you can't go wrong with any of the "Big 3" (Boss/Roland, Line6, Vox). They all have their own strengths and weaknesses.

hotraman

02-09-2007, 12:35 AM

I picked the GT-8 because I thought it met my needs the best. But you can't go wrong with any of the "Big 3" (Boss/Roland, Line6, Vox). They all have their own strengths and weaknesses.[/quote]

I would echo david's opinion as well.
I get to hear the GT-8, a mesa nomad and my Tonelab Se all the time.
Another friend plays Line 6... but everyone is waiting for my Atomic Reactor to arrive. I enjoy the differences between all of the modelers.

epluribus

02-09-2007, 01:13 AM

I said some things about the GT-8 a couple of pages back...

Hey David. Yeah, I remember reading that, great post. I read Kewlpack's stuff quite some time ago, and you reminded me of it. Went back and cruised it again. Got me thinkin', that did...

:)

slotools

02-09-2007, 02:13 PM

I gotta tell ya that a Boss Dr 880 drum unit has saved me many times as it has a built-in Boss GT 6 unit.
I have done many smooth jazz gigs with just a Gt 8 direct- no issues, just many-many options that may overwhelm some, and can gum up the tone if not careful.
I do prefer the Line 6 XTL for the over-the top-stuff, but for clean and full, the GT 8 is the leader IMHO. tweaking will bring forth results absolutely.

rockinrob

02-10-2007, 01:31 AM

I made it back to the GC and this time I brought my own headphones. I plugged into the GT-8 and while it sounded better, the harshness was still there. I futzed with the output setting and realized I had been doing it wrong- it was set on JC-120, and I managed to get it to Line/phones (I guess I didn't before) and it sounded much better- the harshness was almost gone. I was able to get around on it pretty well, and I went through all the effects- some cool stuff in there.

Then I went to the XTL, and it was hard to figure out how to mess with the settings. It took me a good couple minutes to figure it out, but once I did it wasn't too bad, but having different knobs for all the different stuff like on the GT-8 (amp, OD box, delay, etc) is definitely handy. Anyway, there were a lot more effects in the XTL than I thought there were - a lot more wacky synth, ring mod, freak out kind of stuff, which could be cool for this band.

Anyway, I thought they both sounded OK. The basic amp sounds I got with the XTL were better for what I'm going for (and all around, IMO) than the Boss, but I believe the Boss's could be as good with some tweaking. The XTL definitely has a notched sound, an upper mid thing, like my POD 2.0. I wish I could try it with a band to find out if it's a good thing or a bad thing. On the effects I have to hand it to the Boss. I look at it like this -the boss has a lot of basic effects sounds, and you combine them in ways to get an overall effect sound- like building blocks. The XTL's effects are based more on classic units, and I can't see running a bunch of them at the same time- they're sort of all-in-one.

Another thing, the GT-8 seems like a much sturdier unit- it's heavier and more solid, and the pedals seem more rugged, especially the wha/volume pedal. The XTL's wha pedal seemed like it was held on with half a bolt or something.

Anyway, I'm still up in the air, but I'm leaning toward the XTL simply because my buddy's place has them in stock and I think it'll be easier to dial in quickly. But there are some really great features on the Boss, maybe I'll try that one at some point in the near future if this band works out.

One other thing on the GT-8. I understand they're great multi-FX boards, but you don't seem to hear of tons of people buying them for their amp sim power, as Kewlpack points out. I hear a lot more about Pod XTs and ToneLabs.Often that's how it is, but it depends who you ask. The guys on the GT-8 seem to prefer the GT-8's tones (I guess that why they're on that board :D). It's really frustrating for me, as 99% of the soundclips I've heard for either are tones I'm not really into, and trying them in a GC where the background music is louder than I am is not much help.

I wonder why Fender hasn't come out with a pedal version of the Cyber series stuff?

I used a GT-6 for 3 years & now a GT-8 for over a year. The presets are virtually 100% awful. I don't know who comes up with such crud. You can't judge the GT's at all by them. There are great sounds, including amp sims, in there. Also with the GT's. "output select" makes a huge difference in sound quality. They (GT-8 especially) are amazing machines & will go as deep as you are willing to go with them. I can't speak for the other brands as I started multis with the GT's and know how to work them well enough now that I don't want to start with a new platform. If you don't like to learn, explore & tweak they are not for you. They are NOT plug & play.I agree about the presets -which output setting do you like for a PA/direct/headphones situation? I'm OK with tweaking and exploring, I just get nervous that if I have to change settings to fit the room/PA I might have problems. Plus I need to be gig ready with this unit in a couple weeks.

'Nother thing I love about DSP. If you have a good sound man, bring your laptop (with a GUI for the digi-amp) to the sound check/rehearsal and let the FOH build your patches into the mix for you. The GUIs are so intuitive that it takes all of about five minutes to figure most of 'em out. Once the FOH gets a grip on what everybody's rig can do, together you guys can tweak up your entire patch selection just for the room and the gig. Guys'll flip when they find out what you can do for 'em.Over my head... :o

I said some things about the GT-8 a couple of pages back:

http://thegearpage.net/board/showthr...32#post2061932 (http://thegearpage.net/board/showthread.php?p=2061932#post2061932)

What I didn't say here is that I put my Vibro-King and my Twin Reverb into storage. (I run the GT-8 through a portable PA.)

You can also find my preliminary GT-8 review on HC and some discussion on FDP and BossGTcentral.com - all under the same handle.I caught that, and I was a part of a discussion of yours on another forum, too. It's funny you bring up the Vibroking- I have a trusty BF Pro Reverb which has never failed me, until today. I fired it up before I left for the gig (luckily- I guess I had some kind of intuition or something), and it's doa. I had no time to futz with it -luckily I have a tweed Deluxe I built, but haven't gigged it yet. It's a little nerve racking taking an amp you've built but haven't gigged yet to a four hour set, plus there's no PA so taking the POD as a backup would be pointless. I considered taking the POD and my home stereo.... :crazy Anyway, it made it through, so I was happy. But in a roundabout way it's really made me think, man that Pro is heavy, maybe I need a change...

I do prefer the Line 6 XTL for the over-the top-stuff, but for clean and full, the GT 8 is the leader IMHO. tweaking will bring forth results absolutely.It doesn't have quite as "notched" a sound as the Line 6 stuff. Damn, I can't make up my mind... :jo

epluribus

02-10-2007, 10:21 AM

Damn, I can't make up my mind... :jo

Sounds like a job for The Lovin' Spoonful...

I wonder why Fender hasn't come out with a pedal version of the Cyber series stuff?

They do have a CyberTwin head, pursuing the notion of building a truly analog amp with massive switching. That said, the DI comes out before any output gear, so thinking of a head with no OT section, it wouldn't be hard to imagine a pure DI Cyber Amp. I'd love to see it--a real amp that thinks it's a pedalboard.

--Ray

9fingers

02-10-2007, 11:21 AM

rockinrob, I don't use the GT-8 direct to PA so can't answer your "output select" question except to say to try diffferent settings- it is quick & easy. The one that sounds best is not always the one you would expect. I much prefer the "combo return" setting into the front input of a tube combo. As far as adjusting to individual rooms etc, there is a quick "global EQ" that will change the EQ's of all patches. Press "ouput select" and use the < > parameter buttons to get to "global EQ". Then use the wheel to adjust each EQ parameter. It can be a quick global (all patches) tailoring to a room. If you do opt for GT-8 & need to have some patches ready in a few weeks my advice would be to concentrate on getting a few patches well worked out rather than trying to "do it all" in a hurry.

Scott Peterson

02-10-2007, 01:18 PM

FWIW, I think it is really cool that the Roland guys are posting here related to the topic too.

This is not simply Line 6 related (or Vox, et. al.). Keep on keepin' on guys!

9fingers

02-10-2007, 02:17 PM

Thanks Scott, I am learning from the Line 6 (Pod) folks as well (GT-8 here) . I'd like to see a little more Vox input too.

epluribus

02-10-2007, 03:50 PM

FWIW, I think it is really cool that the Roland guys are posting here related to the topic too.

This is not simply Line 6 related (or Vox, et. al.). Keep on keepin' on guys!

Amen to that. There's an awful lot about using modelling that works across platforms, and it comes out (sometimes in surprising places) as people discuss the particulars of their weapons of choice. The variety is also an excellent preview of owner experience for anyone who's shopping.

So while we're talking cross-platforms, another thing I have about DSP--the flavor of the dirt. Most DSP gear gives you just one, or maybe two. The Cyber Twin is unusual in that it has several, though none really match what I can get from the Deluxe Reverb II. (Tall order--the DR II is a dirt-shaping machine.) By contrast, and maybe it's just me, I hear just one generic Line 6 grind in all the patches in my Pod 2.0, and it sounds nice but distinctly SS. (However, it hasn't gotten the quality time my CT has. Headset practice only for The Bean.) Different amounts, different EQ, different response dynamics, but same old grind. (Sorry.:)) Also noticed this about VAmps and VAmpires, ditto the min quality time. What'm I missin'? And for the other platform owners, what's your take?

--Ray

Desiknow

02-10-2007, 04:23 PM

Any GT-8 Samples?

Can you adjust the mix of whatever is in the effects loop on the GT-8?
The Tonelab and XT Pro is either on or of.

9fingers

02-10-2007, 05:37 PM

Desiknow, Sorry no samples. You have separate adjustable send level and return level controls for the loop on the GT-8.

hotraman

02-10-2007, 09:09 PM

I'd like to see a little more Vox input too.[/quote]

We're around :AOK
I am really getting a good perspective from all of the takes on this thread.
I play with two other guitar players who use Line 6 and Gt-8 respectively.
Its interesting to see how each player uses their modeler. I just ordered an Atomic Reactor 12-50. My Line 6 friend is going nuts.... he wants to bring his gear over and play thru the Atomic. Should be interesting!
Steve

slotools

02-10-2007, 10:20 PM

I set up a diverse 10 song set list with the line 6 XTL and a Fuchs TDS today-( the Atomic I ordered last week has shipped-I will be sure to report my findings) I have not used the XTL until recently- kept it packed away, but after loading the version 3.1 software, I just love using it again, not to mention it replaced a TC G force and pedals which I sold, so there is no going back. wasnt really happy,especially the cost and inconvienience of the rack and pedal setup, and was constantly evolving.

As much as I love the XTL patches available, I really enjoy setting up the sounds myself-many times using a good patch for a starting point as you might expect-

I will say I could not use the Boss GT 8 with the same enthusiasm- don't get me wrong, I think it is a great unit and have used it considerably- strong on effects, the Line 6 XTL is just a better fit right now for me -stronger in the amp modeling and distortions.

epluribus

02-11-2007, 08:03 AM

We're around :AOK
I am really getting a good perspective from all of the takes on this thread.
I play with two other guitar players who use Line 6 and Gt-8 respectively.
Its interesting to see how each player uses their modeler. I just ordered an Atomic Reactor 12-50. My Line 6 friend is going nuts.... he wants to bring his gear over and play thru the Atomic. Should be interesting!
Steve

What a cool situation. Seems to me if they're good tweakers that you could plug in and try out properly set up patches in the two modellers to get an A/B idea of the performance. Worst part about comparing these things is getting the presets singin' the way you like 'em--takes a lot of getting to know the rig. I love to have guys plug into my CyberTwin after they've pooh-poohed 'em in the shop. It's fun to watch 'em stare at the amp. :) (Same's true of me. to be fair, when I plug into a rig that a guy's done some work with. Don't think I've ever heard one of Wakarusa's amps that didn't just plain sing.)

Love to hear your impression from a side-by-side, as well as theirs.

--Ray

TieDyedDevil

02-11-2007, 04:46 PM

Can you adjust the mix of whatever is in the effects loop on the GT-8?
The Tonelab and XT Pro is either on or of.

Yes, you can. In fact, you can select either a series or a parallel loop on the GT-8 and adjust the send and return levels independently.

epluribus

02-12-2007, 12:35 AM

And Now From Left Field Dept: You guys have been talking about Atomic combos for your modellers. What if you used those Atomics as heads? I tried just that with my Cyber Twin. This weekend I finally got the chance to embark on a grand modelling experiment--I put speaker In's and Out's on all my combo amps.

I recently replaced the speakers in my Deluxe Reverb II (Weber 12F150), a 1X12 combo, and a '66 Kalamazoo Model II (Weber Signature Alnico 10S), a near-clone of the 5F1 Champ. Between those two and the Cyber Twin, that means I now have three different real-world cabs to connect to my Cyber Twin. (I also have a thundering Univox 2x12 that's in the shop, and a Peavey 4x12 that currently lives in a church. A couple of other cabs are in the works as well, esp a 2x10 closed-back. More films at eleven.)

The CT makes an often astonishing effort to shape it's native cab tone (reverse phase on one stereo channel to create a 1X6 Champ--amazing) but A/B'd...you can always hear that super-stout Celestion-loaded 2x12 cab. Spot on for a Twin Reverb or Blues Breaker sound, but not quite "there" for smaller stuff like Deluxe, Princeton, Champ, etc. So now with any amp able to drive any speaker, (Within output/capacity limits. And they're all impedance-matched) time to see what the CT could do with appropriate real-world cabs.

The Champ-style 1x10 cab was a cinch--no surprise there. But that little 10" Weber still had far more oomph left than a Tweed Champ would throw at it, so I tried a Blackface Princeton patch...and about fell over.

I like real Princetons a lot and I've never known the CT to do justice to one--it just doesn't seem to be in there. So I started with a slightly tweaked Fender factory patch for the BF Princeton, then dialed the EQ and a touch less gain so the CT wouldn't continue to try to compensate for the 2X12, and bang! All that presence and Princeton personality just kind of materialized right there in the living room. Eerie real.

Then a Cyber Twin-only voice: The actual Kzoo II has a distinctive, gorgeous Fender shimmer to it with a Strat plugged in, and the CT can almost, but not quite, get there--it's just too stout. The Kzoo, however, leaves something to be desired in the body, low mids, and lows, yet sounds amazing running into the Deluxe Reverb II's 1x12 cab. So I ran the CT's K2 patch into the DR cab, and not only could I get the sweet harmonics in the higher end, I could fill out the body of that sound unlike any of the real amps, and use the CT's output power to create depth and presence that the Kzoo/DR can only dream about-and at low volume at that. It became an amp unto itself.

Yeah, I know you can't drag twelve cabs to a gig. But try this anyway. We've known for a long time that a modeller piped into heavy iron can do pretty well, but this is another route entirely.

--Ray

Scott Peterson

02-12-2007, 07:16 AM

You can turn off the internal speaker in the Atomic, so it's pretty easy to do. I am using extension cabs with my Atomic; not "quite" what Ray is doing, but I so much prefer the mix of the Tone Tools 112 or 212 (both loaded with Jensen NEO 12")'s that I don't use the Atomic alone much.

My plan was to try other speakers in the Tone Tools cabs until I could find a mix that worked and make the Atomic "huge" sounding the proper way - push more air - and got very very lucky with the Jensen NEO speakers. They kill mixed with the Atomic speaker. BOOM.

:D

gimmejava

02-12-2007, 11:02 AM

Scott Peterson

02-12-2007, 11:10 AM

Another Line 6 "trick" that I am using on most every preset with great success:

- set the reverb to "chamber" and the other parameters at 30/30/30 and mix in about 5% on heavier stuff and more on lighter OD and cleans to taste.

Unless you have some specific reverb needs, this will add just a touch of body to the sound that really works for my ear.

Try it!

epluribus

02-12-2007, 11:41 AM

- set the reverb to "chamber" and the other parameters at 30/30/30 and mix in about 5% on heavier stuff and more on lighter OD and cleans to taste.

30x3...input, time, tone, diffusion...out of a scale of 100? Always interesting to try other folks approach to time-based FX--so easy to misset.

--Ray

megalowmatt

02-12-2007, 12:49 PM

Scott,

Thanks for this post. I did some patch testing yesterday with my sons' Crate Powerblock into a 2x12 cab that I built. I just used the combo poweramp with the 2x12 line6 cab sim and the tones were very nice. Like you say, they sound kinda bright at first, but the more I played the better they sounded. I set up cleans to slightly crunchy to full out rock. Very nice indeed. I did a lead tone based on the slo100 and all I can say is "Oh my god!!"

Randall

Yes! I am exclusively using the slo100 2x12 line6 cab combo for all my light crunch to high gain sounds and love it.

Scott, thanks for the reverb tips...gonna give it a try. I have been universally using the Vintage Plate with great success also.

rockinrob

02-12-2007, 05:37 PM

I have a couple quick questions about the XTL. First one is -can you adjust the level of the effects? As in the mix level- wet to dry, that sort of thing? I imagine it would make many of the effects more usable. It'd be cool to get a very slight envelope follower sort of thing, for one.

Also, is there a way to set it so that a delay effect keep repeating after it's switched off (via it's designated pedal)? Having the repeats stop when it's switched off is a dealbreaker for me.

Anyway, I don't need to know how just yet, only if you can. Thanks!

FWIW, I think it is really cool that the Roland guys are posting here related to the topic too.

This is not simply Line 6 related (or Vox, et. al.). Keep on keepin' on guys!

:D For a second I felt bad about trying to hijack this thread, but I read through it and it seemed like the kind of thread where everyone was learning for everyone else, so I figured why not...

Atmospheric

02-12-2007, 06:46 PM

I am 13 months into using the PODxtLive as my main rig. 99.99% of the time I go direct with high-end dual driver in-ear monitors. More about this later.

If I need an actual amp, I have a Mesa 20-20 with two Avatar 1-12 sealed cabs (G12H30s).

I have it sounding REALLY good. Scary good actually.

The Output mode control is a godsend for disabling/enabling AIR. I use very little room and only when going direct into the board.

The whole world of in-ears throws a major moneky wrench into things. Those little drivers are freakishly efficient at amplifying dog frequencies. However, the upside is that when I can get a patch to sound good through in-ears and through the Mesa 20-20, I know I've got a winner.

I use the global EQ on every patch. I basically use two profiles:
Basic Low/Hi Rolloff | 50Hz -3.0db | 70Hz 0db | 4800Hz 0db | 7500Hz -3.0db | Strat w/Upper Mid Emphasis | 50Hz -3.0db | 70Hz 0db | 3600Hz 2.5db | 6000Hz -3.0db |

Setting those -3db points on the high end has been the secret (for me) of getting patches to sound natual in all settings.

I use the Soldano model almost exclusively. I liked it better in the POD 2.0 before they gained it up, but it still sounds right to me, even for cleans. Plus, sticking to one amp model means that my patches all sound like they come from the same amp, which is good IMHO for what I'm trying to do.

Instead of the compressor for clean boost, I use Effects Boost + EQ set like this:
| Gain | 70% | Bass 50% | Treb 50% | Mid 70% | Midfreq 46% |

It's the best clean boost I've ever owned.

I'm going to give the Dragster a try.

I have tried preamping with PXTL with the line out from my Mini Cat. It sure brings a welcome lower mid fatness and compression to the party. It makes the PXTL sound more "right" for lack of a better term.

If the Dragster did half as much, I'd be pleased.

I'm not sure if I would have the balls to show up with the PXTL in all circumstances, but it's sure working for me in a big way at churches. Ths sound guys love it because they can run it in stereo and it's dead quiet, even with SCs.

Scott Peterson

02-12-2007, 08:17 PM

rockinrob - yes you can mix in the wet/dry level of the effects. It's very cool. I do not think however that the delay spills over.

MLT - Very cool post, I just went about checking your boost out and liked it a LOT on most all my presets. Excellent post with a lot to mull over. I'll try some of your EQ. Are you using the cab sims then? What one do you use with the Soldano preset?

Atmospheric

02-12-2007, 08:28 PM

Again, I find that by sticking with the same amp/cab, I really capture the vibe of using a real amp, but being able to tweak it a bit to taste.

So a typical bank for me is:
1-cleanish 2-cleanish w/mod (usually trem) 3-crunchy (with a bit of slapback analog delay) and 4-soaring (essentially the crunchy patch but with more delay and delay set to tap tempo).

BTW, I found a handy little gizmo for balancing volume levels. It's called a Beachtek SVU-2. It's basically a battery powered stereo VU designed to mount on video cameras. Before I got it, I had a dickens of a time actually getting my patches balanced to the same output level. They are discontinued, but I did find one new on at an outlet store. They run around $100 but are well worth it.

MLT - Very cool post, I just went about checking your boost out and liked it a LOT on most all my presets. Excellent post with a lot to mull over. I'll try some of your EQ. Are you using the cab sims then? What one do you use with the Soldano preset?

ButchR

02-12-2007, 11:46 PM

So....with the atomic amps, I could disengage the combo speaker and run into my iso cab?

If so, this could work in my situation.

Scott Peterson

02-12-2007, 11:47 PM

So....with the atomic amps, I could disengage the combo speaker and run into my iso cab?

If so, this could work in my situation.

Quite simply, yes.

rockinrob

02-12-2007, 11:59 PM

rockinrob - yes you can mix in the wet/dry level of the effects. It's very cool. I do not think however that the delay spills over.
:(:(:( Man, I was all but set to buy this thing. I just spent an hour searching the Line 6 forums, and it seems there isn't a way to get the delays to trail off when turning off the effect or changing the patches. I'm really frustrated! :mad:

I was given the technical explinations and they make sense, but honestly I don't understand the point of having a delay effect if it doesn't trail off. How do you go from a heavy delay patch to a dry patch without sounding bad?

I guess I could get a seperate delay stomper to use with the XTL, or a different MFX unit. Looks like the GT-8 is back in the running... :rolleyes:

BTW, does anyone know for sure if the GT-8 can do the delay trail off thing? On another forum they said it can, but they also said that about the XTL (d@mn 13 year old kids...). The GT-8 has the dual COSM thing, so it should be able to do it (that's the XTL's hang up- it has a single processor) but I really need to know for sure.

Webfoot

02-13-2007, 12:50 AM

This is a great thread as it pushes the envelope. I really would like to move into this equipment space if I knew the sound really hangs together. I've always been in the camp of a couple great sounds versus many so-so sounds. But if you can also get many great sounds... then wow! I also really like the concept of being able to turn your rig volume up or down and the sound quality remains the same versus a narrow sweet spot. Eons ago I had a peavey rockmaster into a intellifex into two stacked carvin combo amps that gave a great full stereo sound that was consistent at any volume and allowed my to do my guitar and midi thing back then.

My two questions/requests would be:

- It almost sounded like in the last couple of posts that the speaker in the Atomic may not be enough on it's own. Is that true? If so would just a mesa 20/20 and avatar cabs get you in the same place... or is the atomic 50 112 really good enough my itself?

- I guess this is a request regarding why line 6 versus a GT-8. I know there are other good choices and have read kewels site and comparison work (a great job). So given this is a personnel choice with tradeoffs... what would be really helpful and cool is some mp3 posts for our ears. Something like clean (single coil neck) and dirty (humbucker neck) sound clips from a line 6 and atomic amp only setup being mic'ed (playing both single note stuff and chord stuff). Really curious how much body and richness there is in the sound.

Thanks for the info sharing. I am learning alot.

epluribus

02-13-2007, 03:53 AM

If I need an actual amp, I have a Mesa 20-20 with two Avatar 1-12 sealed cabs (G12H30s).

And those can even handle big-amp/cab sims? Cool--I have a cab project in the works right now. Coupla Carvin 12s need a good home.

I have it sounding REALLY good. Scary good actually.

The Output mode control is a godsend for disabling/enabling AIR. I use very little room and only when going direct into the board.

This is a biggie with me when I help a guy build his patches into a mix. Most rooms, esp older churches, have more than enough air. Adding to it is one fast way to bury a guy in the mix--not to mention making it very noisy.

I use the global EQ on every patch. I basically use two profiles:
Basic Low/Hi Rolloff | 50Hz -3.0db | 70Hz 0db | 4800Hz 0db | 7500Hz -3.0db | Strat w/Upper Mid Emphasis | 50Hz -3.0db | 70Hz 0db | 3600Hz 2.5db | 6000Hz -3.0db |

Setting those -3db points on the high end has been the secret (for me) of getting patches to sound natual in all settings.

Interesting to see those EQ points. Almost exactly where I bump my channel strips (room considered) when I have a modeller in the mix--to make it sound more "amp-y," and give it stage presence. First noticed this effect with a metal axe with ultra-punchy pups--it just jumped out of the DSP with detail and presence like no other. (...And yes, taming the highs at about 6000+ Hz keeps that punctuated presence from turning into ice picks.) Found out I could do it to people's patches at the console too, though it's much more effective when done in the modeller, IMHO. That's when it occurred to me to try the "Ultra Clean" thing with the Cyber Twin, (a mysterious item in the FX menu) it does something very similar. Sounds very amp-y that way, cool.

But to make it sound power tube-y as well, esp when clean, try just a very light touch of chorus. (A component of this UltraClean thing.) I like a chorus rate of .08Hz, depth at around 45%, and about 10-20% wet/dry. Exceedingly subtle if all you do is listen like you're auditioning an A/B shootout in a stereo. But try this and listen instead for what it does to your imaging onstage. Something about it kind of makes the amp materialize in an eerily 3D way. Even non-guitar people have told me that when I ask for opinions in a sound check--it sounds like it's "there." The other thing it does is make the tone more comfortable on the ear fatigue front, another issue that doesn't immediately hit you in the face. Again, from A/B tests with non-music people--Which sound feels better?

I use the Soldano model almost exclusively. I liked it better in the POD 2.0 before they gained it up, but it still sounds right to me, even for cleans.

Guess I'll have to take another run at my Bean II. I gather your patches are optimized for PA as opposed to headsets?

Plus, sticking to one amp model means that my patches all sound like they come from the same amp, which is good IMHO for what I'm trying to do.

Instead of the compressor for clean boost, I use Effects Boost + EQ set like this:
| Gain | 70% | Bass 50% | Treb 50% | Mid 70% | Midfreq 46% |

As opposed to what before boost? I was just talking to a guy about setting up an FCB1010 to give you "clean" boost with gain and volume combined.

It's the best clean boost I've ever owned.

Good stuff...more things to try out. :)

--Ray

Atmospheric

02-13-2007, 09:22 AM

Great thread. It's nice to come out of the closet a bit:)

Ray- Just to clarify, I tend to woodshed thru the 20-20 with the Avatar cabs, but play live direct into the board with in-ears. It's taken almost a year, but all my patches all sound pretty close in both applications.

Adding the cab sims when I go direct adds some warmth, removing them when I go into the 20-20 makes them feel more like a real amp. Yes, the Avatar cabs to my ears are fairly neutral and G12H30s just sound right to me. I'm not necessarily trying to imitate a real wold amp, I just try to get patches that work for me.

For me, this whole convergence thing of getting the same patches to work in both applications has been an unexpected blessing.

Regarding the use of chorus... yes! I downloaded a patch called (as I recall) "Boutique Clean" from the Line 6 site and the guy who created it used this very technique... chorus set to almost no sweep and depth set just enough to fatten it up. You can also move the chorus voice around with depth and speed to emphasize a specific mid freq. Problem is that you sacrifice your mod pedal for that patch, and it will sound way different than the rest of your patches that don't use that technique.

Actually, preamping with the Mini Cat got scary close to this tone and is in some ways better... double-fat and warm in the lower mids without being mushy at all. I can't fully explain it and it goes beyond mere EQ. I'm sort of wondering whether or not I should seek out a Bad Cat pedal or Matchless Dirt Box and give those a try. It really is an intoxicating tone/feel that rivals any real world amp.

And those can even handle big-amp/cab sims? Cool--I have a cab project in the works right now. Coupla Carvin 12s need a good home.

This is a biggie with me when I help a guy build his patches into a mix. Most rooms, esp older churches, have more than enough air. Adding to it is one fast way to bury a guy in the mix--not to mention making it very noisy.

Interesting to see those EQ points. Almost exactly where I bump my channel strips (room considered) when I have a modeller in the mix--to make it sound more "amp-y," and give it stage presence. First noticed this effect with a metal axe with ultra-punchy pups--it just jumped out of the DSP with detail and presence like no other. (...And yes, taming the highs at about 6000+ Hz keeps that punctuated presence from turning into ice picks.) Found out I could do it to people's patches at the console too, though it's much more effective when done in the modeller, IMHO. That's when it occurred to me to try the "Ultra Clean" thing with the Cyber Twin, (a mysterious item in the FX menu) it does something very similar. Sounds very amp-y that way, cool.

But to make it sound power tube-y as well, esp when clean, try just a very light touch of chorus. (A component of this UltraClean thing.) I like a chorus rate of .08Hz, depth at around 45%, and about 10-20% wet/dry. Exceedingly subtle if all you do is listen like you're auditioning an A/B shootout in a stereo. But try this and listen instead for what it does to your imaging onstage. Something about it kind of makes the amp materialize in an eerily 3D way. Even non-guitar people have told me that when I ask for opinions in a sound check--it sounds like it's "there." The other thing it does is make the tone more comfortable on the ear fatigue front, another issue that doesn't immediately hit you in the face. Again, from A/B tests with non-music people--Which sound feels better?

Guess I'll have to take another run at my Bean II. I gather your patches are optimized for PA as opposed to headsets?

As opposed to what before boost? I was just talking to a guy about setting up an FCB1010 to give you "clean" boost with gain and volume combined.
Good stuff...more things to try out. :)

--Ray

epluribus

02-13-2007, 10:04 AM

epluribus

02-13-2007, 10:12 AM

This is a great thread as it pushes the envelope. I really would like to move into this equipment space if I knew the sound really hangs together. I've always been in the camp of a couple great sounds versus many so-so sounds.

Most veteran modellers I know are still this way. Just a few choice tones. But if you play in several bands, those'll be different libraries for each one. Thing is, the tones you do use are super-tailored to you without buying truckloads of experimental gear. And if you find your niche? Then you can go out and get the real-world gear and get it right the first time.

But if you can also get many great sounds... then wow! I also really like the concept of being able to turn your rig volume up or down and the sound quality remains the same versus a narrow sweet spot.

FOH's dream. I love it.

- It almost sounded like in the last couple of posts that the speaker in the Atomic may not be enough on it's own. Is that true?

I might have given that impression, but didn't mean to. The CyberTwin cab does indeed have its limits. But mostly, I was just singin' the praises of installing I/O jacks in all your amps so you have a huge collection of cabs without having a huge collection of cabs.

Thanks for the info sharing. I am learning alot.

Aren't we all? +1!

--Ray

Londoncalling

02-13-2007, 10:28 AM

Scott Peterson

02-13-2007, 11:30 AM

This thread is a godsend. I am digging deep into a piece of gear I thought would remain a toy and nothing more. Thanks guys.

A rookie question, how do you set a global EQ? I have worked myself into a tailspin!

Thanks again!

Doug

Assuming you have a Line 6 product, then you get into their "Edit" or "GearBox" and do it there. You can do it on the unit, but it's slower and not as easy. They basically have a low-shelf, high-shelf and two fixed Q parametric in there. There is a great deal you can do with it, and in the last few pages are some great ideas to start with.

Paul Conway

02-13-2007, 12:52 PM

I'm pretty ignorant about modellers (apart from a Korg Pandora I once owned). So I'd value your opinions: how do the samples of this: http://award-session.com/sessionette.html compare to what you guys use?

kkuehl

02-13-2007, 01:42 PM

Ok I'm deciding if the pod will do this or if I need to trade it in on for lots of pedals. I just spent big bucks on a new head and would like to use it 's clean, crunch and lead tones.

1. I know that the pod's bundle has a few banks of fx only tones and these are what I am after. I know I can turn off all the amp and cab modeling for each tone one at a time, is there a way to globally do this with linedit or gearbox?

2. For what I am after, should I be in front of the amp or in the effects loop. I am currently in the effects loop (parallel), would it be better in serial?

Thanks.

Dave_C

02-13-2007, 03:34 PM

This thread inspired me to listen to some modeler clips. So far, I'm diggin' the Vox Valvetronix stuff over the Line 6 by a large margin. I'm surprised at how artifical and "fake" the Line 6 clips sounded. I thought they had come further by now. I've played them both briefly live, but not side-by-side. But, from memory, this relationship was the same. The Valvetronix is the only one I think I could live with.

Londoncalling

02-13-2007, 08:01 PM

Assuming you have a Line 6 product, then you get into their "Edit" or "GearBox" and do it there. You can do it on the unit, but it's slower and not as easy. They basically have a low-shelf, high-shelf and two fixed Q parametric in there. There is a great deal you can do with it, and in the last few pages are some great ideas to start with.

Scott, Thanks. I should have stated Pod XTL duh!

I found it in Gearbox. Thanks for the tip and thanks for starting this thread!

Doug

Scott Peterson

02-13-2007, 11:18 PM

rockinrob

02-13-2007, 11:25 PM

Bump- anybody have an answer on the Boss GT-8 trailing delay thing?

Scott Peterson

02-13-2007, 11:33 PM

Bump- anybody have an answer on the Boss GT-8 trailing delay thing?

I do not. There are straight up Roland GT-8 forums that would probably have the answers though. I don't know where they are, and don't hang there... but they are out there.... (just didn't want you to think you were ignored!)

rockinrob

02-13-2007, 11:39 PM

epluribus

02-14-2007, 08:27 AM

Oh, no I didn't think I was being ignored. I'm actually on my way to ask the same thing on the GT-8 forums for the second time. I just figured I'd post here first.

Nevermind- I did another search on those forums and found out you can do it (it's called Smooth Patch Changing, if anyone's interested). Apparently it's on page 71 of the GT-8 manual.

See, it's one of those...I don't remotely own a GT-8, but the concept A) never occured to me and B) strikes me as a terrific insight. And that's another interesting thing about this thread--anybody notice how much of the stuff we're talking about here applies to analog rigs as well? You can learn a lot from DSP.

--Ray

Scott Peterson

02-14-2007, 09:04 AM

... on page 71 of the GT-8 manual.

Which is why so many guitarists fear DSP in any way - you said the "M" word.... manual. :messedup

9fingers

02-14-2007, 10:52 AM

rockinrob, thanks for the "smooth patch change" info on the GT-8 to keep the delay or verb going on natural decay after a patch change- I have been doing GT-8 for about a year & had not found that yet. The GT-8 is so deep I'll never begin to touch all it can do, even though I do a lot of tweaking. I have been playing with the "resonators" in "tone modify" lately- really amazing tools to change resonant frequencies. I also recently got into the pickup modelling. I play mostly Strats & going to an "H" model pickup really fattens up the tone, while still sounding very Stratlike (very different than when I play an LP with the same patch). Killer for slide! The GT-8 continues to amaze.

TieDyedDevil

02-14-2007, 02:03 PM

The GT-8 is not very difficult to navigate by "braille", but reading the manual is essential to get a clue as to what's in the box.

slotools

02-14-2007, 02:38 PM

epluribus

02-14-2007, 03:25 PM

I received the Radial Dragster today- I am impressed- I will use it tonight with the L6 XTL -Fuchs TDS rig with a 20 piece orchestra job.
On another note, I purchased a Zendrive and for me is a keeper- wow- great singin' sustain pedal too.

Let us know how the Dragster works with your other gear too.

20-piece orchestra...Meatloaf? :)

--Ray

slotools

02-14-2007, 03:43 PM

Miles

02-14-2007, 04:04 PM

Scott,

I respect and empathize with most if not all of your opinions posted on TGP. And I think it comes down ultimately to what works best for you, and what allows you to enjoy music the most. Some of us don't become musicians, and instead become gear heads first, some of us just want to play. It's good to address this. If we're getting to be too tone snobbish or investing more of our interest in music in the gear than music, it sort of turns into a disease, and no matter what platform of amp technology we prefer, it's good to be mindful of this.

We are constantly growing mentally and reaching conclusions of what works best for us. After my years of experimentation, I've realized that a small to midsize valve combo, a guitar, and a tuner are ideal and optimum. I'm kind of in the middle of the road. I spend an equal amount of money on my valve amp, that it would take another person to get a decent modelling amp. And I own a 1x12 combo, 2x12 combo and 3 guitars...not bad for here. So, I find simplicity appealing for enjoying music, and thus, I don't delve into high end cables and the like.

Even for diverse genres of music, an amplifier that can help my guitar produce a nice cleaned up tone, and a rockin dirty tone that's dialed in with ease and easily adjustable to what venue it is being used in, and a tone that feels responsive and tight with my playing helps ME to be versatile. That's where modelers have failed for me. I don't enjoy tweaking so much to find my tone, and somehow, with sooooo many options, you get to thinking:

"Well, since I have all these tools in 1 package, it has to be able to be better than this. So...I could throw in this kind of EQ, or this kind of cabinet model...NO!! wait!!! Now I can throw in a little chorus to thicken it up, OR adjust the kind of mic simulator to get more focused mids....THEN, I'll save it, and make sure it fits nicely with my clean tone so that the tone doesn't sound out of whack or awkward...OR I can engage this stompbox to compensate...Now, I'll save it"

All of a sudden, you get to a gig, and you don't like the tone. Then what?

It's the mentality: "it sounds bad, but I have this library of tones to tweak and adjust that CAN make it sound better, so it has to" and the headache recycles itself.

Again, just for me.

I need to plug my amp in, put a tuner and the boost/channel switch pedal on the floor, turn on, adjust channel 1, then channel 2 to taste, or for my 'class A', usually increase the highs a little, and hte mids to 2:30, and done. At this point, if it doesn't sound good, I know that's as good as it gets, and I blame the room and live with it.

It's the mentality/mindset.

Plus, I've never liked the way any modeler has reacted as a guitar amplifier in an acoustic environment with the lack of punch and warmth that a valve amp generally has. As recording instruments, I think they are phenomenal.

HOWEVER, Scott, you are a much more accomplished musician than I, and I'm sure a better player too, and you have the good fortune of being able to do it for a living it seems, while I type this stuff from my deskjob. I hear your reasoning, and I know that you know what you are talking about and what works best for you. Being a forum, I wanted to share my reasoning

Thanks.

Miles

Londoncalling

02-14-2007, 04:18 PM

I just picked up my dragster. Plugged it in, plugged in the Pod and the laptop, got the global EQ set, fired up the amp (Carr Mercury) set it clean and plugged in the strat. I set the Dragster a bit down from full on and started messing aorund with various patches. I was amazed at the quality of the sounds I was getting. Many of the factory presets (which I really disliked) are now musical and fun to play. I feel like I am playing through an amp, not an AM radio.

I plugged the unit into my Fender Hot Rod and low and behold more musical sounds (different but still good).

I am not going to say that I can get sounds that mimic a Dumble, or an SLO. I am going to say that I am getting some great useable tones with just a very few tricks (turning off air/mic, global EQ and the Dragster).

I want to thank all of you folks who have participated in this thread and put forth so much useful information. I now have enough of a grounding that I can start messing with getting the Dragster set optimally and building some cool patches. Yeah it is work, more work than just plugging in and jamming. But a little work should provide me with great versatility.

More than that I have faith that good sounds can be had from the kidney bean.

Again guys, thanks a bunch. When I have something more useful than "Damn this sounds cool" to report I'll let you know.

Doug

Scott Peterson

02-14-2007, 07:14 PM

HOWEVER, Scott, you are a much more accomplished musician than I, and I'm sure a better player too, and you have the good fortune of being able to do it for a living it seems, while I type this stuff from my deskjob. I hear your reasoning, and I know that you know what you are talking about and what works best for you. Being a forum, I wanted to share my reasoning

Thanks.

Miles

Miles,

I'm just a weekend warrior man, not a pro. Semi-pro would be stretching it a bit, but I'll take it. I play music out of love, not to put food on the table. I get paid for a lot of the playing I do now, but for years I just played for beer money same as anyone else.

I think we come from the same cloth so to speak, I just want what I want and have gone the guitar-cord-amp route, the guitar-pedals-amp route and guitar-modeler-FOH route too. This mix between the modeler and the Atomic (with the Dragster) is the right "mix" for me; and doing the job really well.

I am hitting with more bands as the only guitarist and having to fill more sonic space instead of just finding my "slice" of sonic space; and this setup is cutting the mustard on both fronts.

I have to cut some clips to get across what I am getting from this now; it's really satisfying and truly great stuff.

All I can say for my approach is that it is my approach, I just thought it was time someone put down the whole thing and started a dialog about it on TGP. You see the partisan thing on other boards, ie. all Line 6 = Vox and Roland sux and boutique tube guys are snobs; all Roland = Line 6 and Vox sux and boutique tube guys are snobs; etc etc.. And here on TGP you see the tube snobs (hey I resemble that remark!) and the pedal guys/tube amps waving off modeling like it was some toy their kids play with.

What I like about this thread is that folks from all sides of the table have stepped up and contributed tips, opinions and thoughts that are in pursuit of making music, not just tweaking tones chasing the brass ring of "sounding like xxxx amp" only.

Tone is subjective anyway; check the amp/effects section here for proof of that. Tones I enjoy and can work with in different contexts/genres/situations means a lot more to me than nailing a BF Twin from 1966 with these tubes, that transformer, those caps and specific speakers. I want tones that make the instrument sing and work in the context of music.

Tis a noble endeavor, no matter the path chosen to get there. :D

TieDyedDevil

02-14-2007, 07:19 PM

"Well, since I have all these tools in 1 package, it has to be able to be better than this. So...I could throw in this kind of EQ, or this kind of cabinet model...NO!! wait!!! Now I can throw in a little chorus to thicken it up, OR adjust the kind of mic simulator to get more focused mids....THEN, I'll save it, and make sure it fits nicely with my clean tone so that the tone doesn't sound out of whack or awkward...OR I can engage this stompbox to compensate...Now, I'll save it"

All of a sudden, you get to a gig, and you don't like the tone. Then what?

It's the mentality: "it sounds bad, but I have this library of tones to tweak and adjust that CAN make it sound better, so it has to" and the headache recycles itself.

That's an interesting observation, Miles.

I have two comments...

First, that is - as you have implied - a losing game. I think it's pretty common, though. It's easy to be intellectually impressed by the supposed potential of a complex piece of gear that has a lot of options. This leads to the line of thought, "Even if I can't make this piece of gear sound good in the store, I'm sure I'll be able to figure out how to get it to sound the way I want once I get it home and study the manual or experiment with all the knobs and switches."

The trick, I think, is to treat a modeler just like you would any other piece of gear at the time of purchase. If you can't make it sound the way you want it to sound in the store, then don't buy it!

Second, I believe that the seduction of complexity is not necessarily limited to modelers. Personally, I went through an embarassingly large number of Mesa/Boogie amps before I realized that the sound I wanted just isn't in any of them... I've made similar mistakes with traditional stompboxes that have offered a lot of tweaking options.

epluribus

02-14-2007, 11:46 PM

these days, Smooth Jazz, broadway style and orchestra work- think Les Miz and cirque du soleil-
although meatloaf would be a gassy gig -:D
I used a VG 8 or VG88 for many years- whatever the job dictates.

Sounds like a really legit gig. Guess you're beyond cuttin' your cones for fuzz and stuff like that. :)

epluribus

02-15-2007, 01:00 AM

I feel like I am playing through an amp, not an AM radio.

AM radio? What's wrong with AM radio? My first "amp" was a hot-wired (tube) AM radio, with a big car speaker in a wooden box. We were cool, man. Soul Sacrifice--yaaaa! :D

I plugged the unit into my Fender Hot Rod and low and behold more musical sounds (different but still good).

I am not going to say that I can get sounds that mimic a Dumble, or an SLO. I am going to say that I am getting some great useable tones with just a very few tricks (turning off air/mic, global EQ and the Dragster).

Guess I'm gonna hafta break down and nab one of these. I think what you're hearing is optimum loading and output from your pups. Not surprised it even worked with your tube rig. Great review.

Again guys, thanks a bunch. When I have something more useful than "Damn this sounds cool" ...

See? There ya go--that AM radio thing again.

:BluesBros

--Ray

slotools

02-15-2007, 01:03 AM

the Dragster worked very well, I used a les paul (humbuckers) and there was an improvement in presence. Presently, I am amplifing using a fuchs TDS 100

The venue uses Aviom monitor systems and I really dont care for them. usually complimented with well used ear buds- I bring headphones........

I only used 2 patch variations on the XTL, a great clean with assortment of delays (mod, short and long), little trem and lite phaser patches. and a patch that has a little teeth and mods into hi gain territory- these features makes the XTL so useful not to mention the compactness as I have to huddle tightly between Percussionist and bassist.

Miles

02-15-2007, 11:19 AM

What I like about this thread is that folks from all sides of the table have stepped up and contributed tips, opinions and thoughts that are in pursuit of making music, not just tweaking tones chasing the brass ring of "sounding like xxxx amp" only.

I think this also brings up another good point, Scott. You really have to judge the sound on the modeler based on good tones you get at face value and whether you like them or not, and based on tones that you blend through a modeler rather than judging it based on the impersonation of the '66 BF twin.

I agree, and this was the approach I had when I had my Valvetronix, and then when I used my Vetta II for a while. I really wanted to like a modeler in the live setting, but it didn't work out so well. I don't think I'm a much of a tube snob at all. Had the Vetta or VT had the same presence and punch for any uses, I would have stopped there, and I have always had plenty of tones using a 2 channel amp or 1 channel w/ gain boost in a 3-piece rock band. However, I'm sure that I'm playing within a much narrower genre than you. In recording situations, Vox and Line6 been genius for me to get tones without micing and putting a demo down on a digital 8-track, and it doesn't matter. If it sounds good, I don't care what's doing it, whether it's Line6, Rivera, or Crate. It just so happens that my preference in a good live sound has been fulfilled by tube amps so far. And when I had the modelers, I wasn't trying to make them sound like a particular amp. Rather, I was just trying to get the same cohesive, raw, warm, and punchy tone and feel that I was used to out of tube amps.

A small side note, I'm not a fan of high-gain, but if ever I wanted great high gain tones, I would NEVER go to a tube amp. In that department, the Vetta II took all. But, I use cleans w/ hair and AC30 esque medium gain tones for what I do, and I couldn't find that same pleasure in the modeler.

I would like to hear clips, Scott, when you have a free moment, I'll bet they sound Dee-Lish.

Geez, I get long winded.

Miles

02-15-2007, 11:20 AM

Scott Peterson

02-15-2007, 02:38 PM

I'll get some clips in the next week or so. (Maybe I'll have a chance tomorrow). It's just simply a time issue with me; but I'll get something done.

Atmospheric

02-15-2007, 03:49 PM

I remember someone back on the old Harmony Central forum offering the opinion that, "sounding good beats trying to sound just like someone else every time."

Truthfully, I have tried real hard to like the BFDR, AC30 and Twin sims in the PXTL and I have never gotten them to sound good to me, certainly NOTHING like the real deal (I remember the first time a GC sales guy dialed in the BFDR on the old Axe amp and told me, "this sounds like a Fender Deluxe Reverb;" I just laughed at him!). I know that other guys swear by them (or swear at them).

I actually think that is one of the strengths of the PXTL: there are many, many, many ways to skin the same cat.

Semi-Hollow Smith

02-15-2007, 07:18 PM

I just wanted to butt in and say a personal thanks to Mr. Peterson (well...and everyone else who has participated in this thread, but especially Scott)

I played my first gig last night with a Dragster, and I have to say my Rickenbackers haven't sounded that good for a long time. It really did give them back their bounciness and sparkle that had gone missing for the past few weeks as I transitioned to a modeling rig. I got comments on my tone like I hadn't received since I gave up my tubes.

I'm now using my electrics (a Ric 330 & 330/12 with an Epi G-1275 for backup) through a Dragster into a PodXT Live into the back of a Crate Powerblock. From there I run both the direct out to the PA and the speaker outs going to a pair of Carvin 10" PA speakers housed in an old Ampeg 8x10" turned into a 'dual 2x10' cab (one stereo set of 10's for my guitar, another for monitoring loops from my Mac through a second Powerblock)

Like I said, last night my Rics came alive again! Both the jingle and jangle returned, and (though I hate sounding repetitive) there's a life in the sound that wasn't there before. To me, that Dragster is worth every cent - probably the most "bang for the buck" improvement in my sound since I traded my Casinos for Rics. Another benefit: the easy accessibilty of my sounds and distinct lack of pedal-dancing made playing last night so much FUN! I felt freer to move around and in some senses goof off onstage - and hey, getting more involved with the crowd is (almost) never a bad thing. I also have to say, I found the 20 minute setup and teardown to be quite nice; what with my entire rig (power cords, cables, capos, mics, and of course the floorboard with Dragster, Pod, and both Powerblocks) fitting into a single old keyboard flight case I had sitting around.

Secondly, I'd like to say thanks to everyone for keeping me my curiosity piqued about this new adventure I'm on out of tubes and into modelers! I was frankly quite depressed having to sell off my amps and pedals, but this thread has really kept my interest alive and been an invaluable resource for me playing around trying to find the best sounds I can.

Scott Peterson

02-15-2007, 08:43 PM

777

02-15-2007, 09:15 PM

The Dragster is a killer little tool that really does what it does, no hype.

Okay, somehow I've missed it. What is a dragster? :jo

Semi-Hollow Smith

02-15-2007, 09:21 PM

Cool man - thanks for the kind words.

The Dragster is a killer little tool that really does what it does, no hype. Glad to see that some other guys are checking it out and hearing/feeling it too.

Makes me say, "See, I am NOT nuts after all!" :D:D

No sir, you definitely are not nuts. :D

777 - The Dragster is this wonderful little box:

http://www.tonebone.com/tb-dragster.htm

That site will do a much better job explaining it than I could, and if I recall there is a good description of it earlier in the thread...

rockinrob

02-16-2007, 12:20 AM

rockinrob, thanks for the "smooth patch change" info on the GT-8 to keep the delay or verb going on natural decay after a patch change- I have been doing GT-8 for about a year & had not found that yet.

Glad I could help! As it turns out, it looks like I'm getting the XTL, but like I said, if this project works out I may end up getting a GT-8 at some point, too. You have to admit, it's pretty amazing the tools you can get for around $400 or so- or even $300 used.

We are constantly growing mentally and reaching conclusions of what works best for us. After my years of experimentation, I've realized that a small to midsize valve combo, a guitar, and a tuner are ideal and optimum. I'm kind of in the middle of the road. I spend an equal amount of money on my valve amp, that it would take another person to get a decent modelling amp. And I own a 1x12 combo, 2x12 combo and 3 guitars...not bad for here. So, I find simplicity appealing for enjoying music, and thus, I don't delve into high end cables and the like.

Even for diverse genres of music, an amplifier that can help my guitar produce a nice cleaned up tone, and a rockin dirty tone that's dialed in with ease and easily adjustable to what venue it is being used in, and a tone that feels responsive and tight with my playing helps ME to be versatile.Me too- I've come to that conclusion myself. Here's the issue -I can get all the tones I need for anything I'd want to do with a midsized amp and maybe an analog pedal or two. The problem is when you're getting tones for what other people want. Myself, I'm not too concearned with exactly coping tones live the same as they've been layed down on the album, but not everyone feels the same. So it's simply an issue of who's music you're playing, or who's the boss.

That's where modelers have failed for me. I don't enjoy tweaking so much to find my tone, and somehow, with sooooo many options, you get to thinking:

"Well, since I have all these tools in 1 package, it has to be able to be better than this. So...I could throw in this kind of EQ, or this kind of cabinet model...NO!! wait!!! Now I can throw in a little chorus to thicken it up, OR adjust the kind of mic simulator to get more focused mids....THEN, I'll save it, and make sure it fits nicely with my clean tone so that the tone doesn't sound out of whack or awkward...OR I can engage this stompbox to compensate...Now, I'll save it"

All of a sudden, you get to a gig, and you don't like the tone. Then what?

It's the mentality: "it sounds bad, but I have this library of tones to tweak and adjust that CAN make it sound better, so it has to" and the headache recycles itself.

Again, just for me.That's one problem that makes sense, but I've never run into it (yet). All my use of modelling so far has been with direct recording, in which case I have an idea of the sound I want in my head before I even touch the thing. Then it's just a matter of getting there. The approach above is more of a "let's just see what happens" approach, and I think that's not that best, but I understand how someone could get into that trap.

The key is to get the unit and play around with it a lot to see what it can do, but when it comes to actual patches have a planned out idea of what you want it to sound like. It's more about how you want it to fit in the mix or in the track than "oh, I want a JTM-45 sound". Especially with effects.

Webfoot

02-16-2007, 09:38 AM

Out of curiosity, how does the Dragster sound with nothing in between... just guitar - Dragster - amp? Is there any sound alteration?

I have a BBE sonic stomp that does some interesting things and I have also read about the Radley Harmonic Converger (specific for modelers to manage down fizz and enhance sound quality). Between these three... the Dragster (right after the guitar pickup), Sonic Stomp (anywhere in the signal path but typically at the end) and Radley Harmonic Converger (after the modeler output).... any idea if there is any overlap on these units or which one makes the biggest impact?

Londoncalling

02-16-2007, 09:49 AM

[quote=epluribus;2135186

See? There ya go--that AM radio thing again.

:BluesBros

--Ray[/quote]

HAA Now that does bring back memories....I won't get into 8-track!

The real problem with all of this fiddling with Pod is that it is cutting into my TGP time!

Scott Peterson

02-16-2007, 09:59 AM

Webfoot,

It's a good question. Short answer to your question is that the three devices you name have absolutely nothing in common at all.

The Dragster doesn't change your tone, it changes the timbre of that tone. It is more a "feel" than a "tone" or "sound" if that makes sense. The perception with single coils especially will be of clearer highs, not "more" highs - but clearer highs and the volume/feel of the guitar seems "right". Into just an amp, it depends on the amp. That isn't its design or function though; it was created to load the pickups and most any amp does that, and most of them do it well.

The Radley Harmonic Converger is - depending on who you listen to - some sort of fixed EQ and/or EQ filter/capacitor/mystery-meat device. The creater is not too forthcoming about what it is, but it is meant and designed from everything I have read, to go after your choosen modeler to knock out the "fizz". Here's a thought though - follow my formula (Dragster, no mic modeling, no "AIR" modeling, flat "Cab" modeling, slight high/low EQ shelving (-3db at 50Hz and -3db at 7500Hz) and an Atomic and you'll have no "fizz" to deal with.

The Sonic Stomp is their foot pedal version of the Sonic Maximizer, which is a Compander/Expander that processes the lower and upper regions of your tone. If you check the specs on the BBE Sonic Stomp, you'll note that it processes +12dB @ 50Hz for "Low Contour" and "Process" is +12dB @ 10kHz. With boxes like these, which have been around since their overuse and "heyday" the 80's (they were on EVERYTHING recorded) a little goes a long way.

Just my opinions/thoughts.

9fingers

02-16-2007, 11:54 AM

My experience with GT-8 only. The Dragster before the "8" had little effect, maybe reduced sparkle (Strat) & dynamics a bit. The Harmonic Converger in the loop (a model is made just for that) makes a huge difference. I was not having bad fizz problems but the HC really takes a blanket off the GT-8 and makes it respond much more dynamically, & with a lot more sparkle & life. I could hardly play my GT-8 without it after using it. I do keep the level on the HC pretty low or it adds too much brite & bite for me. I have tweaked pretty extensively with & without it. (I also spent a couple of hours trying all different levels with the Dragster.) I have no doubt that the Dragster produces the aforementioned results on a POD- I did not get that with the GT-8. One guy's experience.

Scott Peterson

02-16-2007, 12:15 PM

9fingers,

No flame and no problem with disagreement here, just a question... what pickups are you using in your Strat? I am very surprised at your results given the results of nearly myself and nearly everyone else (not just on this forum); "reduced" sparkle? Are you using active pickups? How could the Dragster reduce sparkle unless you have the load cranked up all the way on the Dragster? Really? Wow.

slotools

02-22-2007, 10:42 AM

I received the 1x12 Atomic 60 watt - I can say that I was pleased with the performance and the service I received.
As I stated, I had a line 6 XTL packed away, did'nt think I would ever use it again, but now with software upgrade and the Atomic is effective and truly a transportable rig.

I was lugging multi-amp rigs and pedals and was considering another equipment upgrade, I am going to on hold with purchases for a while.....

Atmospheric

02-22-2007, 06:28 PM

Thanks for the tip Scott. Actually, I bought two because Musician's Friend had the best price ($49) and if I bought two, shipping was free.

Anyway, I hooked it up to my PXTL/Mesa/Avatar rig and dialed in the load.

I could tell a difference right away with the strat 3-5 quack setting. Whereas, the tone used to load up and get foggy if I got too far up on the guitar volume control with too gainy a patch, now the tone is just clearer all the way through the volume pot travel. It feels different as well. Note that these are all relatively subtle changes - my rig sounded darned good before. I would call it a refinement more than a radical change, but well worth $50.

I'm velcroing mine to my PXTL as well.

9fingers

02-22-2007, 11:12 PM

Scott, I tried the Dragster with both the SCN's on my Deluxe, and Duncan APS-2's on an Am. Std. I started with the Dragster turned all the way down & worked my way very slowly up. When I say "maybe reduced sparkle a bit" I mean it was very slight if at all. I really did not seem to get much at all with the Dragster through my setup and seemed to maybe lose a little something, once again very slight. Mostly just very little effect. The Harmonic Converger tho made the tone just jump out of the GT-8. The effect is immediate and dramatic with the HC & the GT-8.

Lution

02-23-2007, 09:31 AM

Scott,

Forgive me if this was already asked in the thread, I didn't read it all.

What steered you away from going with something like a Vetta II Head and 2x12 cab?

thanks

-Lution

Scott Peterson

02-23-2007, 01:01 PM

Scott,

Forgive me if this was already asked in the thread, I didn't read it all.

What steered you away from going with something like a Vetta II Head and 2x12 cab?

thanks

-Lution

I've messed with Vetta's (version 1 and 2) in stores; it never appealed to me from a cost and weight standpoint.

I can get the tones I like from the POD; and having owned POD 1.0, 2.0, XT and XT-Live, I know things change.

Having to sell and replace the Vetta at one point when it was a) out of production or b) not working just never appealed to me.

If you look at the first post here on this thread, you'll see I didn't go looking for a rig in this manner; I had to sell things to pay bills. I was left with my XT Live and Roland Cube 60 and that was that. Needed to keep playing, so started getting back into looking at ways to make it work. Once I got the Atomic, it all fell into place and now I'd be hard pressed - even with the money - to go back to an amp situation where there are one or two really killer tones; I have a ton of killer tones right now; and changing them up is as easy as working on the patches or if I wanted to - change up the modeler. Much less expensive.

And the Vetta is heavy; not a fan of heavy gear anymore. The Atomic isn't slight by any means, but a 50lb combo with side handles is pretty easy to get around. I can live with this and intend to.

hotraman

02-23-2007, 07:34 PM

and Scott's comments ( IMHO), are spot on!
I was getting ready to dump my Tonelab SE if I didn't hear a noticable improvement in tones. Well, I am certainly no pro player, but I could finally hear the tones like I could thru headphones. My Taylor T5's active EQs respond with more clarity than before. My fav patch is a customized 4x10 bassman. After playing thru a Mackie 450, a Roland KC 350, I think the Atomic is a keeper :AOK

Brett Valentine

02-24-2007, 12:02 AM

Great thread.

While I haven't tried the Radial Dragster yet (it's on my list), my best results with the POD have been with decent bass rigs. The best was out of an Ampeg SVT. It had the punch and power (the Fender amps really came to life). The AIR settings did cause issues with the sound.

Brett

Scott Peterson

02-24-2007, 10:06 PM

I am going to post this here, because it applies and gives my backstory a little bit.

Radley is the guy making the "HC" that he sells to combat the "fizz" that he and others get; I address that a little towards the end and just wanted to add that context here.

The thread I put this on is on the Channel 6 Forums for Line 6.

I've used Line 6 stuff from POD 1, POD 2, POD XT, POD XT Live, Variax 500, Variax 700 and the Variax 700-Acoustic. I've also owned the Vox Valvetonix 212 amp and SE pedal.

I've owned and used PA systems, JBL EON G2 10" and 15" power monitors; a tremendous range of higher end amps (Guytron, Dr. Z, Matchless, THD, Groove Tubes, VHT, Rivera, Bogner, and more) with a range of various higher end speaker cabs and speakers.

I've run modelers into PA's, tube amps, solid state amps, effects returns, into the fronts of combos, and heads.

I've recorded and played live with modelers.

One thing that is pointed out but I'd like to highlight. I've felt - always - that electric guitarists play their amps as instruments - you interact with the tone, feel, volume and dynamics. My best recorded tones always come - modeler or not - when the levels are cranking and interacting in the room. When I play with cans; it lacks life and feel IMHO.

Now I've had success direct into the PA, but in those cases - even with really good monitors - has been less than ideal. You can get the tones, but most times its the feel. When I'm on stage (or in the studio), I don't want to play with tones that don't make me feel good. No guitarist, IMHO, is all that happy working with what modeling critics deem "recorded" tones. Seems to me, always that there is some interaction with the pickups/strings and the volume in the room.

I'm a tweaker by nature. With tube amps, I spent hours A/B'ing amps, speakers, tubes, bias settings, cords. With modelers, I'll do what I need to find what I want to hear and FEEL. What's lacked for me is that feel aspect, not the tone. I don't buy the "fizz" thing - it's a red herring to me. If you seek it, it'll be there. If you get a good feel and tone, that tizzy high end is really a result of different factors - but running full range PA speakers isn't gonna help in those cases. Here's a thought to ponder, even with a killer tube amp rig, it'll sound buzzy and fizzy down low. Crank it up to proper stage volumes and BOOM - there's the tone. No more buzzy, fizzy highs.

Radley makes the point that perhaps modeling hasn't reached the goal yet if we aren't happy with the current "AIR" and "mic" modeling. Well, when you run direct it is there. Sounds great. You might have to EQ a bit; but look at what you are going through. Assuming you have a killer tube rig that is properly mic'd on a good cab, you still have a lot of EQ at the board. Now you take an accurately modeled amp, cab and mic into the board direct. And you'd expect to NOT eq it the same way? That doesn't make sense to me.

As to what I do and mentioned on this thread, I don't care what anyone else uses, thinks, wants, needs or anything else. I go with what works for me - and counter to a lot of the want that I see for folks to "get on board" and do what I do; I don't want anyone to do what I do. I don't want to convince anyone to do what I do, how I do it. I share my experience and thoughts in the spirit of sharing the journey; not handing anyone instant results. I am also not selling anything (no slam Radley, but there you are).

To me the modeling "thing" is about options, choices, and most of all possibilities. There is no "one" way, or right way. It's about finding your own path, tone and way.... just like a good tube amp rig. It's really no different.

Webfoot

02-24-2007, 11:01 PM

Scott Peterson

02-24-2007, 11:11 PM

Scott... I think you got us all hankering for some clips of your rig (clean; dirty; single notes; crunchy rhythms; soaring leads... the works)! I know I would like to 'turn my rig upside down' (...and that you are sharing info, not selling). But this sounds like really great stuff. If I was nearby, I would send over a case of beer as encouragement (am I allowed to say that?!).

Heck yea you are allowed to say that. And feel free to follow through with the beer!!!

I know I need to cut clips; it's just that I am working a lot now and have zero time during the day. My wife is off at home from work with a disability and is no fan of cranking up and this coming week to add to it all, my kids are off school for "Mid-Winter Break".... and all my free time is spent working on playing, learning new songs for a band I am in. Just no time to cut clips!

But I've promised I will, and I will. Just need an hour with no one around and I'll cut them loud and proud. :D

Atmospheric

02-25-2007, 11:07 AM

This is gonna be even more OT, but here goes (hope I don't break any rules)...

I dunno, maybe it's turning 50, maybe it's all the ugliness in the world perpetrated in the name of "being right," but at this point in my life I'm decidedly "anti" two things: 1) facism and 2) collectivism.

I don't need everyone on board with whatever I'm doing. In fact, I rather like it just the opposite.

Also, as life goes on, I spend less and less time trying to change other people's minds. IMHO, it is the rare person who is truly open-minded enough to participate in honest discourse. The vast majority of people seem to have made up their minds and only see discourse as a vehicle to vindicate those beliefs.

I'm absolutely the most surprised guy on the planet that a modeler-based rig is working for me at all. But it is. I've now used the same exact rig continuosly for over a year... somewhat of a personal record in the past 20 years anyway (I did play a Les Paul straight into a 100 watt Fender Super Bassman for about 5 years back in the 70s, but we had fewer choices back then... maybe that was a GOOD thing).

...
I don't care what anyone else uses, thinks, wants, needs or anything else. I go with what works for me - and counter to a lot of the want that I see for folks to "get on board" and do what I do; I don't want anyone to do what I do. I don't want to convince anyone to do what I do, how I do it. I share my experience and thoughts in the spirit of sharing the journey; not handing anyone instant results. I am also not selling anything (no slam Radley, but there you are).

To me the modeling "thing" is about options, choices, and most of all possibilities. There is no "one" way, or right way. It's about finding your own path, tone and way.... just like a good tube amp rig. It's really no different.

epluribus

02-25-2007, 04:03 PM

This is gonna be even more OT, but here goes (hope I don't break any rules)...

I dunno, maybe it's turning 50, maybe it's all the ugliness in the world perpetrated in the name of "being right," but at this point in my life I'm decidedly "anti" two things: 1) facism and 2) collectivism.

I don't need everyone on board with whatever I'm doing. In fact, I rather like it just the opposite.

AAMOF, this is one of my concerns about DSP. (I'm six years on with my CyberTwin. Not DSP in the sense my Pod is, but certainly fits the question here.) Your ability to "mod" the rig is confined to whatever the menues allow you--your "mods" come from a list of approved solutions, which represents something of a creative box, IMHO. With an analog rig, esp tubes, your ability to think outside the box is limited only by your soldering iron. As you get deeper into SS, PCB, IC, and so on, things get far tougher to tinker with. And tinkering, IMHO, got us to where rock n roll is today.

In addition, in analog circuits, esp tubes, all the pieces talk to each other, sometimes in chaotic (as in Chaos theory, as far as I understand it) ways, giving the machiery much more a mind of its own. The interactivity of the components is huge, particularly when compared to the behavior of "components" in DSP.

Not to knock DSP here, incl mine, but more to address your notion that lots of people with different voices may just be an invigorating thing. I can't agree more, diversity does wonders for the old intellectual gene pool. Paradoxically enough, the fact that creating DSP tone is ultimately a creature of its menues strikes me as rather confining. Kind of the difference between specialized Lego sets and TinkerToys. (Boy, there's a flame war we haven't had around here! :rotflmao )

Also, as life goes on, I spend less and less time trying to change other people's minds. IMHO, it is the rare person who is truly open-minded enough to participate in honest discourse. The vast majority of people seem to have made up their minds and only see discourse as a vehicle to vindicate those beliefs.

Well you're just wrong, obviously. :)

--Ray

TieDyedDevil

02-25-2007, 11:30 PM

AAMOF, this is one of my concerns about DSP. (I'm six years on with my CyberTwin. Not DSP in the sense my Pod is, but certainly fits the question here.) Your ability to "mod" the rig is confined to whatever the menues allow you--your "mods" come from a list of approved solutions, which represents something of a creative box, IMHO. With an analog rig, esp tubes, your ability to think outside the box is limited only by your soldering iron. As you get deeper into SS, PCB, IC, and so on, things get far tougher to tinker with. And tinkering, IMHO, got us to where rock n roll is today.

That's nice in theory, but in practice...? I mean, how many of us actually get into modding amps? I'd guess that most of us flip a lot of gear trying to find the right combination for our rig. Within the limitations of a modeler, it's a lot less expensive (although arguably more difficult) to tweak settings looking for the right sound.

I actually put off working with a modeler because I didn't want to spend time programming it. I realize, though, that I've spent a ton of time tweaking my tube rig for very small differences in tone and feel.

In addition, in analog circuits, esp tubes, all the pieces talk to each other, sometimes in chaotic (as in Chaos theory, as far as I understand it) ways, giving the machiery much more a mind of its own. The interactivity of the components is huge, particularly when compared to the behavior of "components" in DSP.

I agree with this observation. I'm kind of on the fence regarding its relative importance.

Not to knock DSP here, incl mine, but more to address your notion that lots of people with different voices may just be an invigorating thing. I can't agree more, diversity does wonders for the old intellectual gene pool. Paradoxically enough, the fact that creating DSP tone is ultimately a creature of its menues strikes me as rather confining. Kind of the difference between specialized Lego sets and TinkerToys. (Boy, there's a flame war we haven't had around here! :rotflmao )

I'm not sure what you're getting at here. That it's more difficult to tweak menus than to turn knobs? Granted. OTOH, a modeler is capable of a wider range of functionality than a five-knob amp, isn't it?

epluribus

02-28-2007, 09:39 PM

Hey TDD!

That's nice in theory, but in practice...? I mean, how many of us actually get into modding amps?

Good point. Unfortunately I have recently succumbed to the siren scent of soldering... :)

I'd guess that most of us flip a lot of gear trying to find the right combination for our rig. Within the limitations of a modeler, it's a lot less expensive (although arguably more difficult) to tweak settings looking for the right sound.

I actually put off working with a modeler because I didn't want to spend time programming it. I realize, though, that I've spent a ton of time tweaking my tube rig for very small differences in tone and feel.

No arguement here. DSP can cover intense amounts of turf when you're customizing tones. Within limits, that is...

I'm not sure what you're getting at here. That it's more difficult to tweak menus than to turn knobs? Granted.

I 'spose I was a bit obscure. (who me? :rolleyes: ) Actually, I was saying that it's probably harder to tweak with a soldering iron than with menus, but that the potential for creating something truly new is greater when you can actually re-wire things, esp such that an analog signal can make analog components interact and modify each other's behavior way down the road when you change something.

OTOH, a modeler is capable of a wider range of functionality than a five-knob amp, isn't it?

No arguement here either.

I guess my wayward thinking is indeed OT here, but I keep looking back to our landmark artists who tried fairly radical things on their way to creating classic rock tones, like cutting speakers, asking Jim Marshall for a louder JTM45, turning pups upside down, or even the fabled foibles of the Variac.

At some point rock will need, as it periodically does, to break out of the "box" and take tone and voice someplace entirely new, like Jimi so famously did. (Or less spectacularly, the way John Lennon did when he went guitar direct to mixer and overdrove the mixer itself. 'Fraid I'll have to do a bit of research to ID the track he did it on--I've forgotten.) As DSP rigs are currently built around menues of known and established parameters, Going Where No Rig Has Gone Before isn't going to be easy without being able to think outside the menu.

It's another way of saying that, ironically, powerful digital flexibility notwithstanding, DSP actually constitutes a "box" defined by the limits of its menues--menues made up of sounds we already know. As we tweak our digital rigs, mine included, I find it a useful point to keep in mind. The truly new lies outside the permutations of the old, outside the box.

Probably shoulda started another new DSP thread, but I'm not sure it's that discussable a point. :) Hm...maybe we need a DSP forum around here? O give me a home/ Where the Ones 'n' Ohs roam...

--Ray

Geez it's late. Did that make any sense? :NUTS

epluribus

02-28-2007, 09:48 PM

ALERT, ALERT! (Chicken Little, Chicken Little, Simon and Schuster, 1st chiseling, 2227 BC)

There's a cool clip shootout going on at the link below, a Bogner, a Soldano, a Mesa, and a Pod. The Pod got waxed. (MO) Since we're talking about max performing our DSP, any Poddites got a better patch?

http://www.thegearpage.net/board/showthread.php?t=221278

--Ray

Rock Johnson

03-01-2007, 07:38 AM

Heck yea you are allowed to say that. And feel free to follow through with the beer!!!

I know I need to cut clips; it's just that I am working a lot now and have zero time during the day. My wife is off at home from work with a disability and is no fan of cranking up and this coming week to add to it all, my kids are off school for "Mid-Winter Break".... and all my free time is spent working on playing, learning new songs for a band I am in. Just no time to cut clips!

But I've promised I will, and I will. Just need an hour with no one around and I'll cut them loud and proud. :D

Scott,

Have you any interest in sharing your patches? :BEER

Scott Peterson

03-01-2007, 08:26 AM

Ray - Those same patches (or better ones) through an Atomic and mic'd the same? They'd be a ton better. If haven't noticed yet, I am not a fan of Line 6's "AIR". But you probably knew that. :D

Yes, I will share my patches. I'll clean up one of my bundles and get it up at Andy Z's ION Forum. But note this - they are set up for MY setup. My hands, my guitar, my Dragster, my extension cabs, with my speakers; my rig. They most likely will not work for you or anyone else.

One thing I always notice, and this is not directed at anyone here personally, is this need for approval; this seemingly universal desire to be vindicated and have others support you and your tone. I have what works for me, I talk about it and that's that. To me. Others try to convince me or you of this and/or that; to me it isn't relevant to the conversation. For others it is worth getting all worked up over. My whole point here (and usually) is just to share the journey, not convince anyone that you should do it my way or get my gear or anything like that.

I'll share the patches, but note that you should approach them as a point to study and perhaps investigate, not just accept them. Tis all. :D

epluribus

03-01-2007, 11:00 AM

Ray - Those same patches (or better ones) through an Atomic and mic'd the same? They'd be a ton better. If haven't noticed yet, I am not a fan of Line 6's "AIR". But you probably knew that. :D

Hey Scott.

Just peaked my curiosity, actually. The OP alluded to the fact that those might be vanilla factory patches, and no mention of where the signal went beyond the Pod. As we all know, that difference can be day and night. It would be fun to hear a shootout with a well-tweaked Pod in a lineup like that, as well as other DSP/modelling rigs.

Line 6 AIR--yeah, my ears been burnin' on that one. :) AIR was one of the first things I figured out how to shut off. Noisy.

BTW, good point about not having to drink from the same cup of tea. I often find that after soliciting reams of sound advice, I chuck it all out the window and launch off on my merry way. For some bizarre reason--it works. I always tell people that when they ignore my advice as well. I think it's a sign people are on the right track... :D

--Ray

TieDyedDevil

03-01-2007, 12:35 PM

It's another way of saying that, ironically, powerful digital flexibility notwithstanding, DSP actually constitutes a "box" defined by the limits of its menues--menues made up of sounds we already know. As we tweak our digital rigs, mine included, I find it a useful point to keep in mind. The truly new lies outside the permutations of the old, outside the box.

I'm not so sure that I find merit in this argument. To turn it around for a moment, there's not a lot of variety in vacuum-tube circuits, is there? At the core, designers tend to tweak topology and component values within some pretty narrow limitations. That's not necessarily a bad thing - they have certain expectations to meet and the "classic" techniques are known to be a good starting point. But I personally wouldn't look for any sonic breakthroughs on the tube-amp front.

The problem with digital, as I believe you've inferred, is that there's a lot hidden under the covers that we can't see or alter. Or to put it another way: if you can't get there through the menus, you can't get there at all.

But is this so different from a tube amp for the average guitarist? Heck, I've designed and built electronics since I was a kid (including a tube guitar amp that strayed a bit from the typical Fender-inspired topology), and I can't look at a schematic or the guts of an amp and accurately guess what the amp will sound like or how it will respond to a player's touch. In the end, I have to play an amp to know whether I'm going to like it.

The same thing applies for digital rigs. They each have strengths and weaknesses. Some are strictly plug `n play, while others do allow fairly deep editing and customization. So far, I haven't played a modeler that I think does more than one "class" of sound very well. There's probably no reason for that other than the respective designers' outlooks on guitar tone - they're going to do a better job at the tones they really like, and just toss in the rest because that's what's expected in their market space.

To give you a concrete example of the menus not necessarily being a dead-end, my GT-8 allows me to specify three custom preamps by specifying a half-dozen parameters for distortion and EQ in different frequency ranges. That's an incredibly powerful tool. There are similar customizations available for the OD/distortion effect and for the speaker simulation.

Personally, I wouldn't buy a modeler based on its potential, just like I wouldn't buy a tube amp or a stompbox based upon reading literature or reviews. I have to know that a piece of gear - any piece of gear - is going to work for me before I'll spend my money. Once past getting that first good sound, though, the modeler is way ahead of the game because the remaining potential is already paid for and almost certainly broader than I'll find in a single-purpose device such as a tube-amp or a hardwired stomp box.

Probably shoulda started another new DSP thread, but I'm not sure it's that discussable a point. :) Hm...maybe we need a DSP forum around here? O give me a home/ Where the Ones 'n' Ohs roam...

There are quite a few forums for DSP users, but they tend to be product-specific.

The only site I've seen that attempts to be open to a broader range of DSP users is http://thestompbox.net/ . Unfortunately, its forum is a bit of a backwater as far as these things go.

I've even seen a forum for DSP designers...

At any rate, some kind of DSP/modeler forum might make a nice addition to TGP. I think we're well past the point where players are treating these units as just another potential tool for making music.

Geez it's late. Did that make any sense? :NUTS

At least as much sense as I've been making... ;)

dankayaker

03-01-2007, 01:20 PM

Scott Peterson

03-01-2007, 03:23 PM

I read though alot of this thread (and didn't see my question addressed) and was wondering if Scott (or others) liked the Cube 60 and still felt the need to run a buffer into that amp ? I'm thinking of just running my KLON up front for it's buffers.
thanks

I like and own a Cube 60. There is no need to run a buffer into it IMHO, but that assumes you don't have a lot of pedals beforehand. (Also, the Dragster is not a buffer if that is something you assumed).

I do not run the Cube 60 anymore, but it is a wonderful backup amp IMHO.

epluribus

03-02-2007, 10:50 AM

At any rate, some kind of DSP/modeler forum might make a nice addition to TGP.

Hey David.

Kinda what I was thinkin'. I have yet to find a really top-notch modelling community--a very fragmented world so far. I think it's because people think that discussions have to be brand-specific, but as we've discovered here, that's not necessarily true.

Boy, I can hear the tube howls now...maybe we should call it the Leper Colony or New Salem or something... :)

--Ray

BTW, I liked reading your point of view about whether menues constitute a "box," very well put. A head scratcher for sure.

I'm not so sure that I find merit in this argument...

Ben F.

03-02-2007, 06:27 PM

One thing I always notice, and this is not directed at anyone here personally, is this need for approval; this seemingly universal desire to be vindicated and have others support you and your tone.... Others try to convince me or you of this and/or that; to me it isn't relevant to the conversation.

Those are some sobering words, friend. I guess I needed to hear it, so thanks for speaking up.

BTW, I was checkin' out your clips at myspace. I didn't know you were in Ypsi, man! I lived just south of there (in Milan) during '01-'03. Those were good times for me.

-Ben

rockinrob

03-02-2007, 11:14 PM

Hey guys, figured I'd check in here. I'd ordered a POD XT Live from a local store. They didn't have it in stock and told me 4-5 days -that was two weeks ago. :mad: I guess you can't complain when you're getting a deal (I think $325), but I really need to get working with this thing so I'm ready to gig with it in a couple weeks.

BTW, have any of you guys tried the Tech 21 Power Engine? They seem reasonably priced.

9fingers

03-03-2007, 01:14 AM

Scott Peterson

03-03-2007, 09:23 AM

Originally Posted by TieDyedDevil http://www.thegearpage.net/board/images/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://www.thegearpage.net/board/showthread.php?p=2196104#post2196104)
"At any rate, some kind of DSP/modeler forum might make a nice addition to TGP."

+1 on this. I think this community would be an excellent place for this category of forum. Folks dig pretty deep here!

Personally, I am for it. (Big surprise, eh?) :D

But creating new categories isn't something we do very lightly. I'll discuss it with Brian next week after he returns.

Scott Peterson

03-03-2007, 10:38 AM

Here's my bundle. www.spetersonmusic.com/ScottPetersonBundle032007.l6b (http://www.spetersonmusic.com/ScottPetersonBundle032007.l6b)

Now some caveats!

These tones are setup for my hands, my needs, my ear, my gear. They are setup for the Atomic 112-50 and an extension cab loaded with Jensen NEO 12" speakers. They'll work for direct stuff and other applications with varying results. Please remember - YMMV!!

I play Melancon S/S/H setup guitars (Wagner SR/SR/Goodwood). I use the single coils for most all the cleans, the volumes in the patches are setup that way. I do the following: set the output setting of the POD XT (or XTL) to "Combo Poweramp". I use a Radial Dragster before the POD 100% of the time.

Now you can check them out, have at them. And hopefully understand how individualized I have made this for me. You might dig it, you might hate it. That's up to you; I do not desire nor need any feedback on this, I share it in the spirit of learning only. Other guys out there have far more "universal" bundles that work with a wider range of gear; my whole journey as documented here is very specific to *my* needs and not 'designed' in anyway to impress others or be 'the' way. Just 'my' way.

Have at.

rockinrob

03-07-2007, 04:35 PM

Ok guys, I finally got my XTL. I'm pretty jazzed -it's got the 3.1 update and FX Junkie pack already on it. I've got to be ready to gig with this thing in a little more than a week... :worried

Anyway, a couple quick questions -global EQ. I see that I have an option of setting a post EQ from patch to patch, but is there a way to set it for every patch on the fly? You know, to adjust to a room? I looked at the output settings and I see you can adjust for the "front combo amp" setting or the "front stack" setting, but not for the direct setting (or Bose, power amp, etc), which is what I want to use as I'll be going straight to the board. Maybe I can just use one of those- can I tweak them to make them neutral or are they a different sound/path altogether?

Also, which is the best software editor? I did a quick search on the Line 6 board and it seems many prefer the older Line 6 Editor over the Gearbox editor, but I figured I'd ask here while I'm at it.

And lastly- levels. I was hoping there'd be a db monitor on the XTL or something so I could have an idea of getting patches at similar levels. Any thoughts? Maybe downloading one of the software editors will help me with that (I hope).

Here's my bundle. www.spetersonmusic.com/ScottPetersonBundle032007.l6b (http://www.spetersonmusic.com/ScottPetersonBundle032007.l6b)Cool! :AOK I'd like to check it out, but my 'puter doesn't know what to do with the file- I guess I need a Line 6 tone editor thingy?

Scott Peterson

03-07-2007, 06:04 PM

Ok guys, I finally got my XTL. I'm pretty jazzed -it's got the 3.1 update and FX Junkie pack already on it. I've got to be ready to gig with this thing in a little more than a week... :worried

Anyway, a couple quick questions -global EQ. I see that I have an option of setting a post EQ from patch to patch, but is there a way to set it for every patch on the fly? You know, to adjust to a room? I looked at the output settings and I see you can adjust for the "front combo amp" setting or the "front stack" setting, but not for the direct setting (or Bose, power amp, etc), which is what I want to use as I'll be going straight to the board. Maybe I can just use one of those- can I tweak them to make them neutral or are they a different sound/path altogether?

Also, which is the best software editor? I did a quick search on the Line 6 board and it seems many prefer the older Line 6 Editor over the Gearbox editor, but I figured I'd ask here while I'm at it.

And lastly- levels. I was hoping there'd be a db monitor on the XTL or something so I could have an idea of getting patches at similar levels. Any thoughts? Maybe downloading one of the software editors will help me with that (I hope).

Cool! :AOK I'd like to check it out, but my 'puter doesn't know what to do with the file- I guess I need a Line 6 tone editor thingy?

Load the Monkey and Edit.

EDIT: to address your other concerns - I set up my cleans first and then the dirty stuff. I set the 'volume' of the patch starting at noon and use my ears to balance them. You will need to refine this at rehersal with your band.

You can universally EQ the thing, but you need to use one of the output settings that use the universal EQ to do that. I don't like them tone-wise, so I don't.

Read the Fletcher-Munson curve stuff on Vettaville for setting up your EQ. That matters.

You'll find you don't use that many patches live for the most part; so tweaking on the fly is as simple as turning the knobs to taste and clicking "save" twice afterward.

Atmospheric

03-07-2007, 06:52 PM

Check my previous post. I use a portable battery powere stereo VU intended for video cameras. It works great. My previous post has the make/model/etc. It's made a HUGE difference knowing my patches are perfectly balanced.

I also prefer Line 6 edit for editing. Don't like the GuitarPort application, although it does have a metronome.

Keep us posted.

And lastly- levels. I was hoping there'd be a db monitor on the XTL or something so I could have an idea of getting patches at similar levels. Any thoughts?

rockinrob

03-08-2007, 02:21 PM

Load the Monkey and Edit.Took a minute (I'm computer inept), but I did it last night.

EDIT: to address your other concerns - I set up my cleans first and then the dirty stuff. I set the 'volume' of the patch starting at noon and use my ears to balance them. You will need to refine this at rehersal with your band.
You'll find you don't use that many patches live for the most part; so tweaking on the fly is as simple as turning the knobs to taste and clicking "save" twice afterward.Start with the cleans -sounds like a good plan. One of my problems is the band I'm with isn't like a normal rock group- we have a lot of sequenced things. In fact we don't even have a live drummer, we have a DJ. So volume levels are really important- certaint things need to be low and others need to jump out, and I have a lot of different sounds to cover. My patches aren't going to be the normal clean sound/OD sound/lead sound, they'll be all over the place.

Read the Fletcher-Munson curve stuff on Vettaville for setting up your EQ. That matters.Will do! I'm thinking I'll try and get everything approximately the same volume and then use the post EQ to either boost or lower a specific patch. I just need to learn things like how many dbs is a good boost and in which frequencies (I imagine it's mostly the middle frequencies).

Check my previous post. I use a portable battery powere stereo VU intended for video cameras. It works great. My previous post has the make/model/etc. It's made a HUGE difference knowing my patches are perfectly balanced.Yes- thanks! I knew I had read something about that, and I did a bunch of searches on this thread (I didn't want to re-read all 16 pages) but it didn't come up. I'd planned to try and use the VU monitor on my stereo, but don't know how well it will work. I also have some cheap recording programs on my computer with input monitors I could try, but I'll also look into that Beachtek thing. Only problem is I'm about out of dough...

IMO, a level/db monitor is definitely something they should have on the unit, or at least in the software.

ibobunot

03-08-2007, 03:52 PM

rockinrob

03-08-2007, 11:39 PM

epluribus

03-09-2007, 03:54 AM

And lastly- levels. I was hoping there'd be a db monitor on the XTL or something so I could have an idea of getting patches at similar levels. Any thoughts?

Yeah, AAMOF, don't know why I missed this part of your post. A mind is a terrible thing. :rolleyes:

Normalizing my patches is a big deal with me, since I work FOH here and there. At rehearsals, I also like to build my patches into the mix so I don't fiddle with the mixer so much during the show.

Step 1: After building my patches at home, I run out and use a mixer to set all my patch levels. I use one input trim setting and then watch the level LEDs with the PFL function selected. (Set the channel EQ flat first.) Most good mixers have terrific LED displays so you can really fine-tune your levels. Fortunately, the mixer I use for this is right next to a PC that I loaded PatchWizard on. (I also have PatchWizard on a laptop with a USB/MIDI adaptor. More on why in a minute.)

But what if you don't have a mixer? The one I use is an Allen & Heath in a church. Even if you live in a very small town, if you have a church or an auditorium, chances are quite good you'll find a mixer. Ditto bars and clubs, not to mention schools. If you have a good relationship with your local music shop, they might even help you do it. (Most never heard of normalizing patches!)

Some folks will freak out, but eventually somebody will say yes. Once you get a yes, they usually get all intrigued and will cruise by ocassionally to see what the heck you're doin'. You'll also get requests. If you have a laptop, bring your GUI on that. If not, see if your editing software'll run from a jump drive--some do. Reason A to have a portable GUI.

Step 2: Take yer rig and yer GUI to a rehearsal. (Snag a bud and have 'em bring a laptop it you don't have one.) If you have a soundman, have him fine-tune the Pod EQ, FX and stuff on your patches with the band at full blower. (You can run out front and do it too, but that's tougher.) Yes, it'll mess up your gain structure a mite when you do it. But once you have your EQ and FX squared away in a live setting, just go back to your friendly neighborhood mixer and reset all your levels. Now you're normalized, all your patches will work with one EQ curve set in the channel strip, and you know you're gonna lay back/cut through just right with each patch.

Optional Step 3: Once in a blue moon you get an extended sound check in the place where the gig is. If you're that lucky, do Step 2 one more time. You'll find your EQ, verb, delays, and even dirt levels will be off if the room acoustics are greatly different from your rehearsal environment. If so, make some notes about the room and what you do to your settings to compensate. (You can do that after the gig to save time.) Then if you know you're going to a similar room, you can ballpark your settings. Better yet, save the entire patch library into your computer and label it Joe's Bar or something. Next time you play a boomy place like Joe's, just load up the library file.

That's what I mean by building patches into a mix. YMMV, but it works great for me. Does wonders for your setup time and your confidence in your sound.

Warning: If you have anybody else in the band with DSP, like the keyboards, chances are they'll want to do this too.

--Ray

Scott Peterson

03-09-2007, 07:05 AM

OK, I've been programing all day. It was sort of difficult as I didn't know where to start, but I'm slowly getting it. It took me a lot of time to figure out you need to hit the "Sync" button to keep the files loaded to the XTL from the Line 6 Edit program. I wish they had a better help menu.

One issue I'm having is the sounds seem good when I set them, and then when I go back to 'em they sound like poop. Also, it's hard to get the clean sounds up without getting the clip signal, and the gainy sounds are so much louder in general. I quickly ran a couple patches through a recording program to check levels with it's monitor, and I think that will work OK.

BTW- is there a way to listen to the sounds through your computer when using the Line 6 Edit program? I'm getting a little punchy doing this all through headphones.

Also, I'm use to the POD 2.0, where EQ controls only work if they're on the amp being modeled, and the others are more like post EQ. For instance, on a Deluxe Reverb there's no Mid knob, and on the 2.0 DR setting the mid is more of a post EQ thing. But the XTL seems different -it seems like all knobs (mids, presence, drive) act as if they're part of the amp regardless of the amp being modelled. Any thoughts?

Is there a way to check/build your patches at volume (through at least good powered monitors that can create some level)? Doing it through headphones and expecing it to work with some air moving never seems to work ever.

I've done a fair amount of mixing and mastering (used to run a mastering company for a few years). You cannot, ever, trust what you hear in cans. Even very very good cans. It does not translate to 'real' life 'in the room'.

Another point, don't jack up the channel levels on the clean patches; which is what is going on if you are clipping them. Just accept that the dirty and OD patches will be turned down lower than the cleans.

I've used db meters to try and set my output levels to match; I've found that OD always seems louder than the cleans, even if the db levels match. It's a fine 'have to use your ears' thing. Also, until you are with the band, there is no real way to know if you are being accurate with your settings. Sorry. But there is no exceptions to that. I am talking volume, EQ, amount of overdrive, effects volumes.

One thing to note - the different cab sims all have vastly different EQ curves and therefore vastly different 'output levels'; you get much more consistent results if you use the same cab sim on all your presets. It's just like real life here - if you have 412, 212 and a 112 cabs from different companies with different speakers, you already know that some are more efficient and emphasize/de-emphasize different frequencies and you have to adjust your amp to account for it. Same thing here in 'virtual' life.

I've posted a few times on this thread about where to set your channel output levels; I'd simply set my cleans in the 12-2 o'clock range and then adjust your OD patches to match - at volume through powered monitors - by ear. You'll find that 9-10 o'clock will be fine if you are using "studio direct" mode.

rockinrob

03-09-2007, 11:53 AM

Wow Ray, thanks for the tutorial! I'm going to print it out and go over it some more. Some I can't do because I don't have a laptop, but I can get to a mixer.

Is there a way to check/build your patches at volume (through at least good powered monitors that can create some level)? Doing it through headphones and expecing it to work with some air moving never seems to work ever.
I hear you about doing it through cans. I have 2 stereos setup up in my living room right now, 1 for the CD and one for my POD, but they're pretty far from the computer. I thought there should be a way to listen through the computer as I use the Line 6 Editor, but I guess there's not. I could try and run a line from the 'puter area to the stereos, but right now I think I'll try and get the basic sounds through the cans, then further tweak through the stereo.

Another point, don't jack up the channel levels on the clean patches; which is what is going on if you are clipping them. Just accept that the dirty and OD patches will be turned down lower than the cleans.
Good point. I think that's a symptom of using the cans. I was trying to get the cleans as loud as I could.

I've used db meters to try and set my output levels to match; I've found that OD always seems louder than the cleans, even if the db levels match. It's a fine 'have to use your ears' thing. Also, until you are with the band, there is no real way to know if you are being accurate with your settings. Sorry. But there is no exceptions to that. I am talking volume, EQ, amount of overdrive, effects volumesI hear you. My plan is to get the levels at least in the ball park before I get with the band, using as much of Ray's method as I can. Time is tight and we've all got a lot to work on, so the less time I hold everyone up dialing in the better.

One thing to note - the different cab sims all have vastly different EQ curves and therefore vastly different 'output levels'; you get much more consistent results if you use the same cab sim on all your presets.Yes- I got hip to that while tweaking last night.

I've posted a few times on this thread about where to set your channel output levels; I'd simply set my cleans in the 12-2 o'clock range and then adjust your OD patches to match - at volume through powered monitors - by ear. You'll find that 9-10 o'clock will be fine if you are using "studio direct" mode.Thanks for that tip- I'm running way hotter than that, about 7-9 o'clock on the channel volume.

BTW, even though there's not a dial, about where on the level out (on the back) are you guys running?

Oh, and I just wanted to add thanks for all the help -you guys have been great!!

:BEER :D:D:D:D:D:BEER

Scott Peterson

03-09-2007, 01:08 PM

BTW, even though there's not a dial, about where on the level out (on the back) are you guys running?

One the POD XT there is, "Output" - it's set to line all the time.

On the POD XTL there is "Amp" and "Line". Amp is simply quieter; I prefer to use this as my "master" volume and get it as high as I can. (I set my amp 100% volume and use this as my overall volume level). Hope that makes sense.

epluribus

03-09-2007, 01:13 PM

Hey RR, hope it helps.

Really nice to see Scott's post, big +1. Might seem like we're contradicting each other, but I was limiting the scope of my post and Scott's progresses into some big key issues, IMHO.

One is judgement. My post is about gettin' yer ducks in a row. Scott went a step further about applying creative license to make it dramatic. Can't agree more, levels are a starting point to make sure your signal is stout and your tone is unclipped and uncolored. Once you get 'em in max performance, just remember that you can't boost without clipping or coloring--you can only cut something. Hence his excellent note about OD and cleans. But the larger point is that solid tech stuff supports, but doesn't replace, sound artistic judgement. :JAM

The other issue he hits is mixing as an FOH would think of it. I see a mix being kinda like a Tweed amp--all the parts are enormously interactive, and if you change one thing, you change the whole thing. (Hence his remark about sticking to one cab, IMHO. Most DSP road warriors I know use one "amp" with three or four variants max in any given gig. If you do radically different covers, cool, but then everybody's gotta re-patch and re-mix.)

I really liked Scott's remark about fine tuning everybody's sound when they're together, and the fact that that means FX, drive, EQ, levels, the whole nine yards. I believe in mixing (building) patches almost like you'd mix a track in a studio--even the analog guys. The physics are very different, but the idea of orchestrating for max punch isn't. And if you take it one gig at time, a few patches each time, 1) it stays fun, and 2) you end up with a wicked library of cut-and-paste patches that'll get ya real close. Your setup time will go down and your confidence onstage will go way up. (BTW, you'll end up building a lot less patches than you think. In six years of CyberTwinning, I have maybe five go-to "amps." The differences from there will be a library of tiny tweaks for each room, and that won't really be all that big either.)

But imagine if the whole band thinks this way--few do. This is one place you can really steal a march on the competition. Or, this is something you can share with everybody and just make the music scene that much more vibrant.

--Ray

ps. IMHO, every rock musician, esp modelling guys, would benefit greatly by learning the FOH biz. It's literally transformed my thinking and I know it's why I have such great luck with DSP. (Didn't know you'd owned a studio, Scott, but now I see why you think the way you do. Cool!) Besides, it's easy to say The Band's All Gotta Work Together, but the soundman scene'll give ya the mechanics to get it done--fun factor goes way up. :BluesBros

So just nab a gopher gig with a good FOH here and there, and do some reading on the FOH boards. RigTips on Yahoo is my hands-down favorite, incl the Files page. Won't make ya an FOH overnight, but it'll make ya think like one. :NUTS :D

rockinrob

03-10-2007, 01:19 AM

One the POD XT there is, "Output" - it's set to line all the time.

On the POD XTL there is "Amp" and "Line". Amp is simply quieter; I prefer to use this as my "master" volume and get it as high as I can. (I set my amp 100% volume and use this as my overall volume level). Hope that makes sense.

Actually, you kind of lost me. On the XTL, by "amp" and "line" do you mean "studio direct" or "front of combo amp", that sort of thing?

Anyway, I just went through your bundle, and just looking at your patches really helped me out. I noticed you keep your channel volume's low, but you've got a 6db boost on the compressor for every patch- is that engaged all the time or just used here and there?

Also I'm really nervous about the post EQ- even through my stereo at decent volume I can't hear too much change with it. I noticed you mostly have the same post-EQ settings per patch, I guess you got them through trial and error at volume? I've read the articles at Vettaville and understood them, but to be honest I just can't hear it when I try and dial it in.

Might seem like we're contradicting each other, but I was limiting the scope of my post and Scott's progresses into some big key issues, IMHO... .....But the larger point is that solid tech stuff supports, but doesn't replace, sound artistic judgement.No, both posts make sense to me, and I understand I have to be the final judge. But it sure would help if I had a better starting point- I feel like I'm just thrown into the middle of this thing and don't know in which direction to go. The thing is I have pretty good ears and know what I want, it's just taking me a long time to figure out the format. Man, it took me 20 minutes just to figure out how to save a patch on Line 6 Edit- they got this folder that says "templates" and no explination as to what a template is...

The other issue he hits is mixing as an FOH would think of it. I see a mix being kinda like a Tweed amp--all the parts are enormously interactive, and if you change one thing, you change the whole thing. (Hence his remark about sticking to one cab, IMHO. Most DSP road warriors I know use one "amp" with three or four variants max in any given gig. If you do radically different covers, cool, but then everybody's gotta re-patch and re-mix.)

I really liked Scott's remark about fine tuning everybody's sound when they're together, and the fact that that means FX, drive, EQ, levels, the whole nine yards. I believe in mixing (building) patches almost like you'd mix a track in a studio--even the analog guys. The physics are very different, but the idea of orchestrating for max punch isn't. And if you take it one gig at time, a few patches each time, 1) it stays fun, and 2) you end up with a wicked library of cut-and-paste patches that'll get ya real close. Your setup time will go down and your confidence onstage will go way up. (BTW, you'll end up building a lot less patches than you think. In six years of CyberTwinning, I have maybe five go-to "amps." The differences from there will be a library of tiny tweaks for each room, and that won't really be all that big either.)

But imagine if the whole band thinks this way--few do. This is one place you can really steal a march on the competition. Or, this is something you can share with everybody and just make the music scene that much more vibrant.Yes, I agree. The difference is in this group there isn't really a full band, basically there's a mix which is the album with various parts dropped out- so the only thing we're playing live are some of the guitars, bass, keys and effects, and vocals. So it's sort of a unique situation which I would think would make things easier as the "rest of the band" is a constant, but I'm really having a hard time getting stuff to mix right. And none of the delays and other effects sound right. I'm not even trying to nail stuff as on the record, just trying to get good sounds that will work, but it's slow going. And here's the real hang up- the PA we rehearse with SUX. It's all high end and no bass. I was running my POD 2.0 with the treble rolled all the way off on both the POD and the mixer- that's how bright it is. They ordered some really nice powered speakers which are waiting at the shop, but they can't get the dough together to pay for them. That's why it was important to get at least a starting point here at home. Damn broke musicians...

So I'm trying to start simply -trying to get one decent patch to build off of, but I'll take a break and come back and realize that patch sucks. :rolleyes: I hooked up my POD 2.0 and dialed in some patches and then tweaked the XTL to match, but I still can't get it the same- they're like 95% there, but that last 5% seems like the most important 5%. Anyway, I'm getting punchy. I'd love to just leave this thing alone for a couple of days and come back to it, but I just don't have the time.

epluribus

03-10-2007, 05:16 AM

Just dawned on me about the gig...you're playing against tracks from a CD lifted from published songs. I've read about the lifting process in mixing/recording books. (Scott, you'd know all about this.) Seems to me that if you build patches interactively like we talked about, that in itself could be the problem right there--you may never get a patch to blend with an up-mix or a down-mix, esp if its been mastered.

Trouble is that if it is indeed a selection of tracks from an album, they've been heavily processed in the studio to the point where the music has tones and dynamics in it that simply won't come out of a live amp. I've had horrible luck lifting amp tones from albums, for that reason I've always thought. Every time I've tried this, I sound like a live player with a record going in the background. (Which is why I detest karaoke in church.)

Scott, am I on the right track here?

As for finding a patch, I think you're going about it right. Start by finding one amp that really works for you and base your variants on that. Cuts down the tweak time and gets you a tone that can take you lots of places. All that stuff about levels is way down the road.

As for why the 2.0 and the XTL don't match, I'm too casual a Pod guy to be any use there. Some day, I keep telling myself, I'm going to do Pod versions of my favorite Cyber Twin patches, as well as my analog rigs, so I can use the bean as a backup to my other amps. So far, I just have a nice set of practice setups.

You might also consider a post on the recording section of TGP to see if you can find out more about these partial-mix CDs. You may get some insights into exactly what's been done to them.

And yes, Line 6 couldn't write a help file for finding your way out of a carport. :messedup

--Ray

Scott Peterson

03-10-2007, 09:19 AM

Actually, you kind of lost me. On the XTL, by "amp" and "line" do you mean "studio direct" or "front of combo amp", that sort of thing?

Anyway, I just went through your bundle, and just looking at your patches really helped me out. I noticed you keep your channel volume's low, but you've got a 6db boost on the compressor for every patch- is that engaged all the time or just used here and there?

Also I'm really nervous about the post EQ- even through my stereo at decent volume I can't hear too much change with it. I noticed you mostly have the same post-EQ settings per patch, I guess you got them through trial and error at volume? I've read the articles at Vettaville and understood them, but to be honest I just can't hear it when I try and dial it in.

I wrote that and the following assuming you have an XT-Live (XTL). If you have an XT (the bean) then there is no "amp/line" switch. The output on the bean is always at "line" level.

Okay - first part. On the back of the XTL, near the output, there is a little pot you turn for output volume. Just above that is a switch, "amp" and "line". That's what I was talking about.

Second part - Post EQ - those were suggested settings that were mentioned on this thread by someone else, I can't take any credit for them. They work.

Third part, set the "amp" switch to "comp" in Edit and use that +6db you see as a solo boost. I do not engage it unless I am soloing. I adjust it for the situation, but if I am in a loud 2 guitar rock band, I use 6db, if I am the only guitarist in a smaller setup (like a trio) I'll use 4db.

No, both posts make sense to me, and I understand I have to be the final judge. But it sure would help if I had a better starting point- I feel like I'm just thrown into the middle of this thing and don't know in which direction to go. The thing is I have pretty good ears and know what I want, it's just taking me a long time to figure out the format. Man, it took me 20 minutes just to figure out how to save a patch on Line 6 Edit- they got this folder that says "templates" and no explination as to what a template is... Edit is clunky, but it is very powerful and puts everything in your patches right in front of you. Once you get Edit as a program, you'll move very fast with it.

Yes, I agree. The difference is in this group there isn't really a full band, basically there's a mix which is the album with various parts dropped out- so the only thing we're playing live are some of the guitars, bass, keys and effects, and vocals. So it's sort of a unique situation which I would think would make things easier as the "rest of the band" is a constant, but I'm really having a hard time getting stuff to mix right. And none of the delays and other effects sound right. I'm not even trying to nail stuff as on the record, just trying to get good sounds that will work, but it's slow going. And here's the real hang up- the PA we rehearse with SUX. It's all high end and no bass. I was running my POD 2.0 with the treble rolled all the way off on both the POD and the mixer- that's how bright it is. They ordered some really nice powered speakers which are waiting at the shop, but they can't get the dough together to pay for them. That's why it was important to get at least a starting point here at home. Damn broke musicians...If the PA sucks, then no matter what you do banging your head into the wall at home is going to somehow 'transcend' the PA. You cannot over come it; you can polish a turd, but it's still a turd. A shiny turd perhaps, but still a.... turd. I hate saying that, but you are setting yourself up to be highly underwhelmed.

So I'm trying to start simply -trying to get one decent patch to build off of, but I'll take a break and come back and realize that patch sucks. :rolleyes: I hooked up my POD 2.0 and dialed in some patches and then tweaked the XTL to match, but I still can't get it the same- they're like 95% there, but that last 5% seems like the most important 5%. Anyway, I'm getting punchy. I'd love to just leave this thing alone for a couple of days and come back to it, but I just don't have the time.Check Andy Z's bundle, and Rob Tognoni ( http://www.robtognoni.com/line6.htm ); all these cats and epluribus and everyone else - approaches this differently. Check out www.customtone.com (http://www.customtone.com) too. Spend time looking at and listening to how/why they set their patches like they do.

Remember that a "patch" is in essence constructing an entire 'rig' in real life, with amps, speaker cabs, pedals, the whole deal. If you look at my bundle, 5C is my main sound. In headphones or into a PA? It sucks. In my output preference, with my hands, with my guitar, into my Dragster/Atomic/ToneTools rig? BOOM. One of the best sounds, real - modeled or otherwise - that I've ever had.

It isn't as easy as dialing it into a stereo and making it sound okay. Just like building a full blown rig in real life - demoing amps, speakers, cabs, effects, doing EQ for the room, finding the tones for the song, etc - one single patch is the same way.

Epluribus asked about playing to tracks; to me you have to remove the mindset of specific amps used for specific purposes and just find what works. Just like real life, finding and crafting virtual patches (aka 'rigs') takes enormous time and effort. You are playing live, not on a record. So don't craft tones to match the recording so much as to match the live situation. You can't play with a 'recorded tone'; you need a live tone. They are very different animals. On a record, what you are hearing isn't what was coming out of the amp (nor any other instruments or voices). It's all EQ'd, mixed and massaged with surgical precision. Live work is a more raw and honest thing - you cannot play "pretty" unless you have the killer PA, complete and utter control of a professional team of sound engineers. Look at full blown professional tours and how much preproduction goes into getting it to sound right... and note how often it doesn't.

If your PA sucks and this is all on the fly with no preproduction, take that into account crafting tones for live work.