Wayne Krantz OS discussion, 2048 formulas, one player, wow

[tonefingers]

I like to hear what this book means to you

Me, I'm not through with it yet, but what I am realizing

is this could be one of the most powerful books I own.

But I don't 'own' what the book is about - yet.

What might be going on

Tell me about this 'wonder-full' book :Spank

[brad347]

Maybe there's a deeper level i'm not "getting"

But to me, the book seems very simple.

In much the same way as, when we internalize a "scale" it becomes not a sequential pattern but a "pool of notes,"

Krantz has systematically identified all possible "pools of notes."

Only unlike scales, they are not limited to 5, 7, 8 note patterns. Any group or number of notes from 1-12 can be a "pool of notes." One note by itself has its own unique 'tonality,' as do all twelve, and everything in between. The atypical ones that fall "in the cracks" (i.e. not commonly derived from the usual scales) are often ignored. Krantz sets out to rectify that.

I think the whole deal is, you set about exploring each of these "pools" in equal measure, rather than as functions/portions/extrapolations of existing "scales."

Two notes have as much weight in this system as 8.

Tonalities exist that are "synthetic," i.e. not major, melodic minor, diminished, or harmonic-minor-derived.

In Krantz's system, these 'synthetic' tonalities are just as viable as the common ones to which we are more accustomed, and are weighted equally.

He has set it up, in terms of exercises, so that you never allow yourself to learn the tonalities/formulae as "scales" or patterns, etc. He starts you out right away shedding them as pools of notes with no fixed order. In order to do this, you actually have to learn the fretboard quite well. Very smart. That way you actually learn the tonality, rather than a muscle-memory set of patterns. Guitarists often take that shortcut because you can use/transpose patterns very easily without knowing the names of the notes you are playing.

His "spreadsheet" or whatever you want to call it puts at your fingertips all harmonic possibilities that exist in the 12-tone tempered chromatic scale available to us on guitar (and most Western instruments). Any of us really could've made this list ourselves, if we thought about it.

Then he suggests some things you can do to explore this vast territory. What you ultimately do with it, however, is up to you.

That's my "Book Report." :AOK

[tonefingers]

cMaybe there's a deeper level i'm not "getting"

But to me, the book seems very simple.

In much the same way as, when we internalize a "scale" it becomes not a sequential pattern but a "pool of notes,"

Krantz has systematically identified all possible "pools of notes."

Only unlike scales, they are not limited to 5, 7, 8 note patterns. Any group or number of notes from 1-12 can be a "pool of notes." One note by itself has its own unique 'tonality,' as do all twelve, and everything in between. The atypical ones that fall "in the cracks" (i.e. not commonly derived from the usual scales) are often ignored. Krantz sets out to rectify that.

I think the whole deal is, you set about exploring each of these "pools" in equal measure, rather than as functions/portions/extrapolations of existing "scales."

Two notes have as much weight in this system as 8.

Tonalities exist that are "synthetic," i.e. not major, melodic minor, diminished, or harmonic-minor-derived.

In Krantz's system, these 'synthetic' tonalities are just as viable as the common ones to which we are more accustomed, and are weighted equally.

He has set it up, in terms of exercises, so that you never allow yourself to learn the tonalities/formulae as "scales" or patterns, etc. He starts you out right away shedding them as pools of notes with no fixed order. In order to do this, you actually have to learn the fretboard quite well. Very smart. That way you actually learn the tonality, rather than a muscle-memory set of patterns. Guitarists often take that shortcut because you can use/transpose patterns very easily without knowing the names of the notes you are playing.

His "spreadsheet" or whatever you want to call it puts at your fingertips all harmonic possibilities that exist in the 12-tone tempered chromatic scale available to us on guitar (and most Western instruments). Any of us really could've made this list ourselves, if we thought about it.

Then he suggests some things you can do to explore this vast territory. What you ultimately do with it, however, is up to you.

That's my "Book Report." :AOK
Ah, brad, you hit the door knocker of my thread. But you didn't come in.

I also understand the pools and how I could have put together
the 2048 formulas and learning the tonality not just muscle memory

So, how does that pertain to a blues?

How does it get used in the 90% of the tunes I play.

Does it require dense linear noteage?

What about tension resolution?

Does it have any relationship to Howard Roberts Sonic Shapes?

Does Frisell use any of this thinking?

Brad347 - deal, or no deal

also, read what Steve Kimock wrote in my 'Cool ways to use Pents' tread.

very, very cool stuff

[brad347]

I also understand the pools and how I could have put together
the 2048 formulas and learning the tonality not just muscle memory

So, how does that pertain to a blues?

How does it get used in the 90% of the tunes I play.

For me, the answers to these questions would be "however I want it to, if I am comfortable enough with it."


Does it require dense linear noteage?

What about tension resolution?

Does it have any relationship to Howard Roberts Sonic Shapes?

Does Frisell use any of this thinking?


Well, since it's just "dead information," you could say it doesn't "require" anything. It just is. As far as how other players would conceive of it, I certainly cannot speak for that.

There is very often a tendency to want to "use" or "exploit" information/insights that we gather.

The spirit that I took this book in, is that you practice all this stuff if it interests you and (hopefully) at some point or another say to yourself:

"Wow. Isn't that neat? Doesn't that sound different than anything i've ever heard? Cool!"

And that's it.


If you then said "Wouldn't this sound crazy as s*** on the IV chord of a blues" and proceeded to 'work it out,' that would be entirely up to you, and following your own muse. That's the beauty part.

But I don't think this information was put out there with the intent to be a "secret" to get a certain type of sound. One might not even consciously "employ" any of the principles in real-time playing.

I see it more as a venture to acquaint one's ear/mind/spirit with some of the different and more obscure "tonal flavors" that exist. For the pure joy of doing so.

Sometimes it's very tempting to want to "exploit" sound for our own purposes. Make us sound cool, look cool, feel cool. But often it's more enriching to just share a space with sound for awhile... give ourselves to it rather than taking from it, and develop a beautiful, mutual relationship with it that may or may not result in playing "cool stuff."

But it will certainly result in some level of musical enlightenment.

[Dana]

I have this book also. It certainly opens the mind to an overwhelming number of possibilities.

It reminds me a lot of Jerry Bergonzi's first book Melodic Structres. Instead of the entire scale Jerry maps out a series of 4 note groupings.

1 2 3 5 For major ie: C D E G
1 3 4 5 for minor ie: C Eb F GFor each for note grouping there are 24 different ways to play it.

1235 1253 1325 1352 1523 1532
2135 2153 2315 2351 2513 2531
3125 3152 3215 3251 3512 3521
5123 5132 5213 5231 5312 5321

Just this much alone takes hours and hours of work.

So, in regards to your question. I would take ONE of the patterns in Wayne's IOS book. Just one.

Play it in all keys.
Learn one fingering starting on each finger.
Play it backwards.
Play it in 3rds, 4ths, 5ths
Find an appropriate chord for it. Record a vamp or loop and practice soloing over it.

I'm trying to say, there's a wealth of information in just 4 notes. Try taking just one (or part of) a formula, and see how many ways you can use it. Try writing a solo using one of the formula as the basis. There are many possibilities.

I was just thinking, it might be fun if someone picked a formula out of the book, and each person takes it and comes up with something and posts it. It could be writing solo, lick, lesson, song, mp3 jam, whatever. What do you think?

[Frank Prince]

I bought the book.

In one sense I was unimpressed and slightly disappointed with the book because, as a computer programmer, I realized it would be pretty simple to write a program to spit out all those combinations and permutations, which is what I suspect Wayne did or had done for him.

On the other hand, I respect Wayne for thinking of it, and as a player I believe that his thoughts and tips on how to approach that material, use it in playing and composition situations, and how to expand on it are more than worth the price of admission.

I just wish I had thought of it first! :jo ;)

[tonefingers]

I bought the book.

In one sense I was unimpressed and slightly disappointed with the book because, as a computer programmer, I realized it would be pretty simple to write a program to spit out all those combinations and permutations, which is what I suspect Wayne did or had done for him.

On the other hand, I respect Wayne for thinking of it, and as a player I believe that his thoughts and tips on how to approach that material, use it in playing and composition situations, and how to expand on it are more than worth the price of admission.

I just wish I had thought of it first! :jo ;)
Yea, but you probobly would have wrote it in DOS. ha ha (just jokin )

But then there's Waynes playing to back up his book you got to think about that.
Cause I sure do. Blistering harmonic depth.

[Frank Prince]

Yea, but you probobly would have wrote it in DOS. ha ha (just jokin )

But then there's Waynes playing to back up his book you got to think about that.
Cause I sure do. Blistering harmonic depth.Yep, and that's why I bought it. I already have enough guitar books to last more than a lifetime even if I studied out of them for an hour a day.

Wayne is incredible, and I definitely wanted to tap into a bit of that if possible. I think the anecdotal stuff about how to use those patterns is the gold in that book.

I would have preferred some straight-up transcriptions of any of his solos, with fingerings and tab, but I have a feeling that he is not really into that. :worried

[KRosser]

I bought that book, out of immense respect for Wayne's playing, took a cursory look through it but I haven't worked out of it at all. Yes, to me it does seem a bit 'obvious' in retrospect, and I'm not sure it's not an idea covered much more fully in Slonimsky's Thesaurus...

Oddly enough, Wayne's sense of harmony is really not my strongest attraction to his playing, it's really in his 'time' and fearlessness about keeping things raw and loose, none of which is covered in that book, so there you go....

But - one idea that intrigues me that might start me working in that is that all those numerical permutations are not just possible melodies, they're also possible chords (I think he even says this, in the intro?). Hmmm....a composer friend of mine has a chart on his wall that he made of every possible chord from the root 'C' - every two-note interval, every possible three-note combination, etc, etc, to every possible 12-note chord (Ha! - there's only one of them, in 12 possible inversions!). It seems like this would provide something similar (?)

[sumis]

the important thing with IOS is not the formulas themselves. that should be pretty obviuos, since the book lists all possible formulas within the 12-tone system. i think it basically should be looked at as a form of ear training (which all improvisation practice must be) ... as a way of practicing certain sounds. paradoxically enough, the four-fret system is not about fingering, but a way to try not think about fingering when practicing a formula. practicing a formula is always practicing THE SOUND of a formula -- it's not about getting dominant 11 arpeggios under your fingers.

yes, the book is extremely simple in concept. but there's a huge pedagocic merit to the way wayne explains his approach. it's not the shortest way, but he really wants to make a point of what this way of practicing really is about.

it is very much a practice approach that tells you to NOT do certain things. a reductive system, that tries to foucus in on certain sounds, how they work and can be explored.

had the opportunity to discuss his approach at length with him last year, and boy was it inspiring. i have a three hour conversation on tape that i'm about to transcribe and make into an article. there's some really good stuff there that i hope you'll be able to read in a not too distant future.

experiencing what he does at the 55 bar, with carlock, lefebvre, jackson, almond, genus, hoenig, et al, is something i wish that everyone could do. there's nothing remotely like it. but thatäs another story i guess.

.

[rh]

Disclaimer: (1) WK aimed private lessons at me for a couple of years, and (2) almost every time I find myself in a musical situation where the goal is to re-create the stylisms of the past, I spend the next three days fighting the urge to just sell everything off and quit from loss of motivation. I just don't care about doing that.

So, please take my comments / questions in that context. Our musical goals may be very, very different. I'm just stating my personal preferences; I don't want to argue the merits of whatever musical decisions one makes. These things are often driven by where one is playing the music, anyway, and limited playing options sometimes force one's hand.


So, how does that pertain to a blues?


Depends on what you're trying to do in said blues. Are you asking, "How do I use IOS to sound like SRV?" Are you asking, "How to I use IOS to create sounds that are stylistically similar to what listeners will recognize as a blues?" Or, are you asking, "How do I use IOS to take a fresh look at an established, underlying harmonic framework?"

Or some other question entirely? To me, the question is loosely formed, as given.


How does it get used in the 90% of the tunes I play.
What's your musical goal for 90% of those the tunes you play? Are they static performances, or are you aiming for a specific well-defined stylistic sound? Or are you trying to shake things up / keep yourself awake in the face of mind-numbing musical boredom?

Or are you asking some other question entirely?


Does it require dense linear noteage?
Maybe. Maybe not. Consider a one-note formula. That note can functionally be the unison, b2, 2, b3, 3, 4, b5, 5, b6, 6, b7, or 7 of any chord you apply that formula against.

Pick a couple of chords at random and record or loop yourself playing them. Apply that formula, one function at a time, to those two chords. There will be a logical musical continuity formed by the fact that the function against those two chords is the same. How strong is that continuity? Depends on the chords. If you're playing the function b3 against a D7#9 and an Abmin9 chord, it's probably going to be pretty strong. There are other function choices where it's even stronger, or others where it is less so.

Repeat for each of the n-note formulas, where n is a number between 1 and 11. There isn't a shortcut to this process.

Something I found helpful: One of the many things WK mentioned in lessons was that using all 7 notes of a scale creates, to his ear, a certain "sameness" regardless of position. One thing he said he really liked about using 4- and 5-note formulas, in particular, was that the neck position they were played in created strongly different musical effects.

This would argue against a requirement for dense linear noteage, as I understand how you mean those three words.


What about tension resolution?
What does 'tension' sound like to you? How 'bout 'resolution' ?


Does it have any relationship to Howard Roberts Sonic Shapes?
In my most personally lucid moments, I see only one relationship between literally everything -- so maybe I'm the wrong guy to try and address this question.


Does Frisell use any of this thinking?
I can't even begin to answer that question, either.

[KRosser]

Disclaimer: (1) WK aimed private lessons at me for a couple of years, and (2) almost every time I find myself in a musical situation where the goal is to re-create the stylisms of the past, I spend the next three days fighting the urge to just sell everything off and quit from loss of motivation. I just don't care about doing that.

So, please take my comments / questions in that context. Our musical goals may be very, very different. I'm just stating my personal preferences; I don't want to argue the merits of whatever musical decisions one makes. These things are often driven by where one is playing the music, anyway, and limited playing options sometimes force one's hand.



Depends on what you're trying to do in said blues. Are you asking, "How do I use IOS to sound like SRV?" Are you asking, "How to I use IOS to create sounds that are stylistically similar to what listeners will recognize as a blues?" Or, are you asking, "How do I use IOS to take a fresh look at an established, underlying harmonic framework?"

Or some other question entirely? To me, the question is loosely formed, as given.

What's your musical goal for 90% of those the tunes you play? Are they static performances, or are you aiming for a specific well-defined stylistic sound? Or are you trying to shake things up / keep yourself awake in the face of mind-numbing musical boredom?

Or are you asking some other question entirely?

Maybe. Maybe not. Consider a one-note formula. That note can functionally be the unison, b2, 2, b3, 3, 4, b5, 5, b6, 6, b7, or 7 of any chord you apply that formula against.

Pick a couple of chords at random and record or loop yourself playing them. Apply that formula, one function at a time, to those two chords. There will be a logical musical continuity formed by the fact that the function against those two chords is the same. How strong is that continuity? Depends on the chords. If you're playing the function b3 against a D7#9 and an Abmin9 chord, it's probably going to be pretty strong. There are other function choices where it's even stronger, or others where it is less so.

Repeat for each of the n-note formulas, where n is a number between 1 and 11. There isn't a shortcut to this process.

Something I found helpful: One of the many things WK mentioned in lessons was that using all 7 notes of a scale creates, to his ear, a certain "sameness" regardless of position. One thing he said he really liked about using 4- and 5-note formulas, in particular, was that the neck position they were played in created strongly different musical effects.

This would argue against a requirement for dense linear noteage, as I understand how you mean those three words.

What does 'tension' sound like to you? How 'bout 'resolution' ?

In my most personally lucid moments, I see only one relationship between literally everything -- so maybe I'm the wrong guy to try and address this question.

I can't even begin to answer that question, either.

rh - yeah, the impression I get from the book is that it breaks things down to an elemental level, so that one has to consider the way they're re-contructed. This is a very powerful device for getting around the traps that 'assumed patterns and relationships' can get you in.

tonefingers - how to use it in a blues or '90% of the tunes you play' is up to you...since there are no harmonic 'rules', or even 'licks' given, none need be consulted as to what you can & can't do with the information

I think this is very important - really, it appears to be a process-oriented book, rather than a result-oriented one...

I regret that my post above makes it sound like I was a little 'down' on it, which is far from the truth - I just haven't had much time to look at it yet, but my immense respect for WK leads me to believe there's defintely something there. I finally have some time over the next few days, and I'm really looking forward to digging into something new.

I'll let y'all know if I have any revelations, unless they're really big ones and I feel like keeping 'em to myself....

[Leucadian]

...over the last month or two, I've downloaded a few of his trio's live performances @55 Bar and ordered all his cd's...I am just intrigued with Krantz's playing...lots of Youtube video's too! What an interesting player...I love that one where he explains to a classroom of students how he had to "give up the music that he loved" in order to find his own voice/style/approach...anyway, I ordered Wayne's book last week.

[Phineas]

I bought that book, out of immense respect for Wayne's playing, took a cursory look through it but I haven't worked out of it at all. Yes, to me it does seem a bit 'obvious' in retrospect, and I'm not sure it's not an idea covered much more fully in Slonimsky's Thesaurus...



exactly! before i even had a good knowledge of guitar (i'm talking like my 3rd or 4th year playing guitar) i instinctively knew this stuff. i even have a spread sheet that i once worked out listing all permutations based off 4 notes in the minor blues scale eg. 1 m3 4 b5 OR 1 m3 #4 5. I remember showing it to some friends years ago and they told me i was crazy and that no one would ever break it down like that and analyze notes in depth to such degree. Anyway, i've since then applied this to pretty much any grouping of notes eg. synthetic scales or pools - that i'm intrigued by and would also find new diads or triads out of it too.

Now here i am years later on this thread searching to find out what's all the fuss about krantz's OS book and it sounds strikingly familiar to what i've been doing for years.

And yes, i checked out slonimsky's book and pretty much did the same for any pool of notes offered there. very similar mode of thinking too.

So my question is - are the pages in this book all 'spreadsheet' like charts or is there written verbal content on concepts too. Perhaps, say, on specific permutaion analysis and what you can do with it like: 'based off this synthetic pool here's a synthetic chord progression and using these chord tones here's a weird sounding melody..."

In short - does he go deep into all possible consequential applications of understanding these pool permutations?

[godinman]

Where do you buy this book can't find it anywhere on the net.

Cheers Ross

[dkaplowitz]

Where do you buy this book can't find it anywhere on the net.

Cheers Ross
WayneKrantz.com

Be warned it's a book that, IMO, requires a commitment of time and dedication to this way of doing things (if only for a portion of your practice regimen) for a period of several months or years before you'll get much out of it. If you have a solid routine, know the fingerboard, know your way around all kinds of changes, etc. already, then this will be a great addition to your collection and a great, new way of looking at things. But frankly if you're struggling with any of those other things, then you should probably handle those first.

Personally, I don't think the name is fitting. An OS is software that's responsible for interfacing between all kinds of different hardware, giving the software the ability to talk to/control the hardware. A book so named, to me, would be more akin to a comprehensive method book interfacing between the "hardware" and the "software" or the "application layer" that the end user sees. This book isn't really a method as much as it's something more akin to the translation of machine code (binary) to a higher level code (like C). This might be better titled "Improviser's Guide to Machine Code" or "Improviser's Guide to the binary language of moisture vaporators". ;)

Just my opinion of course.

That having been said, I like Wayne, I like the book. I intend to use it but have so much other stuff I want to get out of the way first. I'm happy to have it.

[KRosser]

Since this thread has been resurrected, lemme throw in another $.02...

In looking it over very closely I have a new-found appreciation for WK is going for here.

Lots of ado is being made about the 'all possible combinations spreadsheets', which make up about half the book - I made the mistake of assuming that's where the 'meat' of it was, but the business end of this book is in the second half - the text portion, after the formulas.

Read it very carefully. Apply even some of that stuff and I'm convinced there's gold to be found in there, both in terms of music and an understanding of the guitar

[godinman]

Thanks guys

[Leucadian]

Since this thread has been resurrected, lemme throw in another $.02...

In looking it over very closely I have a new-found appreciation for WK is going for here.

Lots of ado is being made about the 'all possible combinations spreadsheets', which make up about half the book - I made the mistake of assuming that's where the 'meat' of it was, but where the business end of this book is in the second half - the text portion, after the formulas.

Read it very carefully. Apply even some of that stuff and I'm convinced there's gold to be found in there, both in terms of music and an understanding of the guitar

...exactly...I've read the second half more than a few times...also, if you're so inclined and it makes sense to you, I think you can jump right in and make music immediately using the most basic of his formula's. Over the last few months, I've spent a lot of time listening to his live sets...they're only a few bucks a pop...makes everything clearer...

...there's no time to bored with the guitar!

[KRosser]

...there's no time to bored with the guitar!

Hell no.

I'm at the age now (45) where I'm starting to realize there may not be enough time left to get into everything I want to get into, even if I live to 100...

[Leucadian]

Hell no.

I'm at the age now (45) where I'm starting to realize there may not be enough time left to get into everything I want to get into, even if I live to 100...

"You're not getting older...you're getting better.":RoCkIn

[yZe]

Where do you buy this book can't find it anywhere on the net.

Cheers Ross
waynekrantz.com

[Phineas]

Lots of ado is being made about the 'all possible combinations spreadsheets', which make up about half the book - I made the mistake of assuming that's where the 'meat' of it was, but the business end of this book is in the second half - the text portion, after the formulas.

Read it very carefully. Apply even some of that stuff and I'm convinced there's gold to be found in there, both in terms of music and an understanding of the guitar

thanks Krosser. that helps to know. i'd hate to buy a book filled w. 'spreadsheets' w. a couple of sentences sprinkled throughout. i can do that on my own (if i had a zillion hours or if i programmed it myself). A buddy and I are going to check him out at the 55 club here in the city this thurs and then i'll get the book.

Another old buddy of mine got me into WK a long time ago. He insisted Wayne and Kevin Eubanks were the guys that 'have it'. whatever that meant. since then i've been interested in checking WK and seeing what he's all about.

Can't wait to see some strat jazz this thurs!

Thanks all for the insight on the book too!

[bigroy]

thanks Krosser. that helps to know. i'd hate to buy a book filled w. 'spreadsheets' w. a couple of sentences sprinkled throughout. i can do that on my own (if i had a zillion hours or if i programmed it myself). A buddy and I are going to check him out at the 55 club here in the city this thurs and then i'll get the book.

Another old buddy of mine got me into WK a long time ago. He insisted Wayne and Kevin Eubanks were the guys that 'have it'. whatever that meant. since then i've been interested in checking WK and seeing what he's all about.

Can't wait to see some strat jazz this thurs!

Thanks all for the insight on the book too!

Hey Phineas,


If you're headed to the 55 bar this Thursday, see if WK has any shows scheduled in July. I'll be in NYC on 7/26 and want to see him, but the 55 and WK's sites have no info yet posted for July. :BEER

[Phineas]

Hey Phineas,


If you're headed to the 55 bar this Thursday, see if WK has any shows scheduled in July. I'll be in NYC on 7/26 and want to see him, but the 55 and WK's sites have no info yet posted for July. :BEER

hey bigroy - i can't make his show tonight so i won't be able to get the inside info for ya. Maybe next wk....

[Lucidology]

Can't wait to see some Strat Jazz this thurs!



"Strat Jazz" ....!!

That's a very cool way of putting it...
Thanks for that Phineas ....;)

[Phineas]

i can't make it AGAIN! playing a show tomorrow. maybe next thurs!

strat jazz!

[shigihara]

Hell no.

I'm at the age now (45) where I'm starting to realize there may not be enough time left to get into everything I want to get into, even if I live to 100...

welcome to the club !

:D

[Strung Up]

Mirkhand deja vu all over again:

http://caferisko.ca/ak/MERUKHAND.html

[SteveStevens]

I posted about this a while back, but I'll send out a reminder. WK will be in Montreal for the Jazz festival in early July. He wants to give lessons while he's here, so anyone who lives in the area and wants some first hand clarification should e-mail WK at wk@waynekrantz.com Toronto, Ottawa, upstate New York and Vermont spring to mind...

Steve

[rh]

So my question is - are the pages in this book all 'spreadsheet' like charts or is there written verbal content on concepts too. Perhaps, say, on specific permutation analysis and what you can do with it like: 'based off this synthetic pool here's a synthetic chord progression and using these chord tones here's a weird sounding melody..."


Most people, myself included, seem to find the "dialog" parts of the book the most valuable. I believe this is how WK intended it, too.

[Phineas]

rh - thanks for clarifying that.

Can you give an example about what to expect in the 'dialogue' part?

[gec78221]

the important thing with IOS is not the formulas themselves. that should be pretty obviuos, since the book lists all possible formulas within the 12-tone system. i think it basically should be looked at as a form of ear training (which all improvisation practice must be) ... as a way of practicing certain sounds. paradoxically enough, the four-fret system is not about fingering, but a way to try not think about fingering when practicing a formula. practicing a formula is always practicing THE SOUND of a formula -- it's not about getting dominant 11 arpeggios under your fingers.

yes, the book is extremely simple in concept. but there's a huge pedagocic merit to the way wayne explains his approach. it's not the shortest way, but he really wants to make a point of what this way of practicing really is about.

it is very much a practice approach that tells you to NOT do certain things. a reductive system, that tries to foucus in on certain sounds, how they work and can be explored.

had the opportunity to discuss his approach at length with him last year, and boy was it inspiring. i have a three hour conversation on tape that i'm about to transcribe and make into an article. there's some really good stuff there that i hope you'll be able to read in a not too distant future.

experiencing what he does at the 55 bar, with carlock, lefebvre, jackson, almond, genus, hoenig, et al, is something i wish that everyone could do. there's nothing remotely like it. but thatäs another story i guess.

.

How's the article coming along???

[55bar]

Hi just posted this thread didnt know there was such a good one already,

Had a lesson with wk just before summer, i'd been working through parts of the book and had a few questions i wanted to ask him. He was a very open guy held nothing back, most of my lesson was chatting about time and groove (something im particularly interested in). I thought i would share some of his wisdom, it really helped my time and feel. One exercise which really interested me was,
whilst working on some of the formulas with a metronome was not to tap your foot, move your head or do anything which may distract from the click. Wayne's point here was unless you have your foot midi synced to the click its going to distract from where the click is.
The second point here which again i fell guilty to was, listen to the volume your playing at, i was way too loud to have any possible way of being able to focus on the click.As i progressed with the exercises (wayne made me record the lesson) We listened back and i could see where my phrases were not quite lining up (or grooving) with the click by "grooving" i suppose i mean that sometimes the phrases weren't always intentionally played bang on the beat (as we know not all music is metronomic) but i really have a tendency "to rush the beat". Something else wayne suggested here was to
picture how the phrase (these were all really simple sparse pentatonic phrases 3 or 4 notes more like brass stabs) would be written out.i'm a fairly competent reader so this was a little easier as it sounded and it really helped me finish of my phrases more " in the pocket"

Anyhow just thought these were some good points. I guess the crucial thing to remember is that the exercises i.e The not tapping or moving stuff. where only for the purpose of this particular exercises.
Looking at wayne play live he does keep very centered and doesn't move around alot. Check out the 3 part dock on youtube. check out the bit where he says " i play a straighter groove" This stuff blows my mind and yeah he taps his foot! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WE4TCD4MFF4One last quote from hi that made my laugh was (on the subject of vocabulary

" no one gives a **** how much altered shit you have down, they just want you to sound good!"

[Dana]

I love that video clip, especially where he's doing the clinic and he says "What am I gonna do, try and sound like somebody else? I'm a grown man. Why would a grown man want to try to sound like another grown man? We grow up and have our own things to say."

[gec78221]

Looking at wayne play live he does keep very centered and doesn't move around alot. Check out the 3 part dock on youtube. check out the bit where he says " i play a straighter groove" This stuff blows my mind and yeah he taps his foot! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WE4TCD4MFF4
A better quality clip.
http://video.yahoo.com/video/play?vid=1116360855&fr=hp-pvnb

[theohartman]

just found this, gonna resurrect this. great thread.

wk's music impacted me deeply when i first heard it and still does. after making the pilgrimage from oakland to the 55bar a couple times to see him play and a lesson with him, it wasn't until the OS arrived that i really started to confront the more difficult question of what it all meant to me for my own music and playing. this is what i've managed to come up with so far:

the desire to 'sound like yourself' is the centerpiece of this whole thing. after casting about for ways to practice his instrument in a manner that would support this goal, wayne documents the things that have worked best for him in the OS. to the extent 'idols are to be respectfully dismissed', we may all have the discovery of our own process and OS ahead of us and it may or may not look anything like wk's.

for me, honestly confronting gaps in my knowledge of the fingerboard was the first step. to try to do this and get into the formulae all at once proved overwhelming. what did seem to work was spending a year or two with ted greene's single note soloing books I and (after a long search) II. this helped me fill in the gaps between my prior classical piano and ear training, and the physical interface of the guitar. i only picked up the OS to remind myself why i was doing what i was doing.

once that was taken care (after 25 years of careful avoidance and denial) the guitar became much more of a canvas for me to experiment with the sounds and ideas i was hearing in my head. as this transition took place, the formulas in wk's book became ways of understanding the stuff i thought sounded cool, and even (i think as he intends) arbitrary experiments to lead the ear into new note-combinations and sounds, but as has been pointed out here, those formulas just are. if anything, permission to not have to classify 1-b2-5-b6 as chord or scale might have been a relief after years of classical theory, but otherwise, it's just a reference.

having arrived at a rudimentary command of the instrument harmonically, i made another discovery: what draws me to wk's music is as much his time as anything else. this isn't documented in the OS, but i got into it a bit in the lesson and not surprisingly his approach is really no different: if you start with a 4 or 8 beat unit of time, there are a finite number of 8th, 16th and triplet divisions and syncopations possible--a lot, but finite. he demurred to go into it much further other than to say for him it was still something he hadn't dissected apart from sitting down and doing the sometimes hard math to figure out what the permutation were, and to make an effort to explore them as a field of rhythmic possibilities in much the same way the formulae are a field of harmonic and melodic possibilities.

along those lines there is a cool book called factorial rhythm that lays these rhythmic maps out in much the way OS lays out the formulae.

goodrick's almanacs of voice-leading seem to fall into the same type of category, somehow, along with slonimsky.

in the end, i listen to his stuff quite infrequently now, there's this magic in sitting down with the guitar now and interacting with the sounds, some familiar, some not, but they each seem to have some sort of character or personality and the process has become one of discovering them and letting them inform my playing. i still find use in anything that will help my poor neglected right hand catch up with my left--zucker's sheets of sound, hybrid picking by (?), but being in a situation where i can target a deficiency in my technique because my hands can't keep up with my ears is a luxury after decades of mindless regurgitation of rote patterns and licks.

gone with it too is the 'wondering if it sounds good'. it might not, it just turns out that kind of fear-based mentality has no place in the process of discovery.

anyhoo, good stuff, very grateful to wayne for his music and sharing his journey.

-theo

[Clifford-D]

just found this, gonna resurrect this. great thread.

wk's music impacted me deeply when i first heard it and still does. after making the pilgrimage from oakland to the 55bar a couple times to see him play and a lesson with him, it wasn't until the OS arrived that i really started to confront the more difficult question of what it all meant to me for my own music and playing. this is what i've managed to come up with so far:

the desire to 'sound like yourself' is the centerpiece of this whole thing. after casting about for ways to practice his instrument in a manner that would support this goal, wayne documents the things that have worked best for him in the OS. to the extent 'idols are to be respectfully dismissed', we may all have the discovery of our own process and OS ahead of us and it may or may not look anything like wk's.

for me, honestly confronting gaps in my knowledge of the fingerboard was the first step. to try to do this and get into the formulae all at once proved overwhelming. what did seem to work was spending a year or two with ted greene's single note soloing books I and (after a long search) II. this helped me fill in the gaps between my prior classical piano and ear training, and the physical interface of the guitar. i only picked up the OS to remind myself why i was doing what i was doing.

once that was taken care (after 25 years of careful avoidance and denial) the guitar became much more of a canvas for me to experiment with the sounds and ideas i was hearing in my head. as this transition took place, the formulas in wk's book became ways of understanding the stuff i thought sounded cool, and even (i think as he intends) arbitrary experiments to lead the ear into new note-combinations and sounds, but as has been pointed out here, those formulas just are. if anything, permission to not have to classify 1-b2-5-b6 as chord or scale might have been a relief after years of classical theory, but otherwise, it's just a reference.

having arrived at a rudimentary command of the instrument harmonically, i made another discovery: what draws me to wk's music is as much his time as anything else. this isn't documented in the OS, but i got into it a bit in the lesson and not surprisingly his approach is really no different: if you start with a 4 or 8 beat unit of time, there are a finite number of 8th, 16th and triplet divisions and syncopations possible--a lot, but finite. he demurred to go into it much further other than to say for him it was still something he hadn't dissected apart from sitting down and doing the sometimes hard math to figure out what the permutation were, and to make an effort to explore them as a field of rhythmic possibilities in much the same way the formulae are a field of harmonic and melodic possibilities.

along those lines there is a cool book called factorial rhythm that lays these rhythmic maps out in much the way OS lays out the formulae.

goodrick's almanacs of voice-leading seem to fall into the same type of category, somehow, along with slonimsky.

in the end, i listen to his stuff quite infrequently now, there's this magic in sitting down with the guitar now and interacting with the sounds, some familiar, some not, but they each seem to have some sort of character or personality and the process has become one of discovering them and letting them inform my playing. i still find use in anything that will help my poor neglected right hand catch up with my left--zucker's sheets of sound, hybrid picking by (?), but being in a situation where i can target a deficiency in my technique because my hands can't keep up with my ears is a luxury after decades of mindless regurgitation of rote patterns and licks.

gone with it too is the 'wondering if it sounds good'. it might not, it just turns out that kind of fear-based mentality has no place in the process of discovery.

anyhoo, good stuff, very grateful to wayne for his music and sharing his journey.

-theo
Thanks for the post. Great stuff.

Keep the thread alive.

Your pedals look interesting, any sound clips?

[dorfmeister]

just found this, gonna resurrect this. great thread.

wk's music impacted me deeply when i first heard it and still does. after making the pilgrimage from oakland to the 55bar a couple times to see him play and a lesson with him, it wasn't until the OS arrived that i really started to confront the more difficult question of what it all meant to me for my own music and playing. this is what i've managed to come up with so far:

the desire to 'sound like yourself' is the centerpiece of this whole thing. after casting about for ways to practice his instrument in a manner that would support this goal, wayne documents the things that have worked best for him in the OS. to the extent 'idols are to be respectfully dismissed', we may all have the discovery of our own process and OS ahead of us and it may or may not look anything like wk's.

for me, honestly confronting gaps in my knowledge of the fingerboard was the first step. to try to do this and get into the formulae all at once proved overwhelming. what did seem to work was spending a year or two with ted greene's single note soloing books I and (after a long search) II. this helped me fill in the gaps between my prior classical piano and ear training, and the physical interface of the guitar. i only picked up the OS to remind myself why i was doing what i was doing.

once that was taken care (after 25 years of careful avoidance and denial) the guitar became much more of a canvas for me to experiment with the sounds and ideas i was hearing in my head. as this transition took place, the formulas in wk's book became ways of understanding the stuff i thought sounded cool, and even (i think as he intends) arbitrary experiments to lead the ear into new note-combinations and sounds, but as has been pointed out here, those formulas just are. if anything, permission to not have to classify 1-b2-5-b6 as chord or scale might have been a relief after years of classical theory, but otherwise, it's just a reference.

having arrived at a rudimentary command of the instrument harmonically, i made another discovery: what draws me to wk's music is as much his time as anything else. this isn't documented in the OS, but i got into it a bit in the lesson and not surprisingly his approach is really no different: if you start with a 4 or 8 beat unit of time, there are a finite number of 8th, 16th and triplet divisions and syncopations possible--a lot, but finite. he demurred to go into it much further other than to say for him it was still something he hadn't dissected apart from sitting down and doing the sometimes hard math to figure out what the permutation were, and to make an effort to explore them as a field of rhythmic possibilities in much the same way the formulae are a field of harmonic and melodic possibilities.

along those lines there is a cool book called factorial rhythm that lays these rhythmic maps out in much the way OS lays out the formulae.

goodrick's almanacs of voice-leading seem to fall into the same type of category, somehow, along with slonimsky.

in the end, i listen to his stuff quite infrequently now, there's this magic in sitting down with the guitar now and interacting with the sounds, some familiar, some not, but they each seem to have some sort of character or personality and the process has become one of discovering them and letting them inform my playing. i still find use in anything that will help my poor neglected right hand catch up with my left--zucker's sheets of sound, hybrid picking by (?), but being in a situation where i can target a deficiency in my technique because my hands can't keep up with my ears is a luxury after decades of mindless regurgitation of rote patterns and licks.

gone with it too is the 'wondering if it sounds good'. it might not, it just turns out that kind of fear-based mentality has no place in the process of discovery.

anyhoo, good stuff, very grateful to wayne for his music and sharing his journey.

-theo

Thoughtful post! I just got "The Advancing Guitarist". This post makes me want to get "Factorial Rhythm".

[russ6100]

Originally Posted by theohartman:

gone with it too is the 'wondering if it sounds good'. it might not, it just turns out that kind of fear-based mentality has no place in the process of discovery.

+ 1,000,000 ! ! !

[theohartman]

Thanks for the post. Great stuff.

Keep the thread alive.

Your pedals look interesting, any sound clips?

there are sound clips for the bc108 silicon fuzz, oc44 treble booster and 8va on my website (http://www.hartmanelectronicstore.com), there's also a vid clip of the nkt275 germanium fuzz on the product page if you can deal with all my yakking. there will be more this week.

as for wayne, much as the last years at 55 were about improvisation, i'm really looking forward to the studio album he reports to be 'in the bull pen'. if for no other reason than i think his composition is as strong as his improv.

dorfmeister, advancing guitarist is great. there's some comment in that book in the intervals section along the lines of, "once you know all your intervals, you'll know all your intervals". i think in some ways that's the point wk makes by presenting the formulas, or his 4-fret system. i still catch myself thinking 'infinite' when in fact it's simply 'vast'. the mindsets are completely different.

love to hear some more OS thoughts if people have 'em. -t

[Jerrod]

Interesting discussion and video clips. Some players make things look impressive and easy simultaneously, but IMO none of what Wayne plays LOOKS impressive. I sure do like how it sounds though, and I think his voice is incredibly distinctive.

[tvegas99]

Great new article where Wayne does a Master Class in this months Guitar Player...reading it inspired me to order the book... a friend of mine used to take lessons from Wayne and I swear...he couldn't shut up about the lessons, I would say his 10 lessons with WK have stuck with him to this day, many years later...congrats to WK on the article, it's very good!!!

[tvegas99]

just want to say I love the concept behind the Improviser's OS, I can't wait to get started, the book is very well written!!

[Clifford-D]

This months Guitar player has a Master Class on Wayne this month.
(Slash is on the cover)

The things I found difficult to understand in his OS book
has been CLARIFIED in this GP article.
Way to go. 1.000,000 +++

It's easy to understand, yet still hard to execute.
(that's good, that means advancement is happening)

-Clifford-D aka Tonefingers

[GovernorSilver]

Looks like a quick trip to Guitar Center to pick up Guitar Player is in order. I missed the Holdsworth issue because I kept waiting for Guitar Player to show up at the local bookstores before I realized they just don't carry that magazine anymore.

[Clifford-D]

I've been combining the Krantz "restricted" method of practice
and the "Coltrane matrix" into one study.

Challenging.

[dkaplowitz]

the "Coltrane matrix"
What's that?

[scadet]

I saw WK, Tal Wilkenfeld & Cliff Almond at the Baked Potato in LA on Friday. Really great show!! Forgot to get a good look at his pedalboard though. (Too busy watching Tal!) Does anyone know what all he uses? I know there is a MoogerFooger Ring Mod, and octaver, a Boss DD3 and a Crybaby. But I am curious as to the other 3 or 4 pedals he has. I guess the one I would be most interested to hear about would be his looper. He was getting the craziest, grooviest loops going and then playing on top of them, with the band. It sounded nothing like the mostly mellow, Mike Stern or almost Metheney sounding clips I have seen on YouTube of his. More like Landau or Henderson I thought. Not much gear info on the web, at least that I could find.

Anyway, I got the magazine today (My Borders had it :-) and so I'm off to enjoy some good reading and see what I can learn about this amazing player.

John

[Clifford-D]

What's that?
"Coltrane Matrix" is also known as "Coltrane Changes"

In my case I am playing C7 and using C, Ab, and E major pents.

So three pents at the same time, this uses every note on the fretboard.
But that doesn't mean you just play anything, you have to know how it works

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coltrane_changes

and of course
http://www.thegearpage.net/board/showthread.php?t=389976

that should explain it.


And then I do all that using Waynes OS approach to practice.
In other words all 3 pents restricted to a four fret spred.

Each position is a bear.

These examples are restricted to the 7th,8th,9th.and 10th frets.

C works great but as you can see Ab and E become very angular.

C maj pent
|---------------------------8-10-|
|----------------------8-10------|
|------------------7-9-----------|
|-------------7-10---------------|
|--------7-10--------------------|
|---8-10-------------------------|

Ab maj pent..............E maj pent
|--------------------8-|-----------------7-9-|-|
|------------------9---|-------------7-9-----|-|
|-------------8-10-----|-----------9---------|-|
|--------8-10----------|---------9-----------|-|
|------8---------------|-----7-9-------------|-|
|---8------------------|-7-9-----------------|-|

If I shift 1/2 step down all fingerings change drastically.

It looks so restrictive, but it really is expanding and clarifying.


:)

[GtrWiz]

I saw WK, Tal Wilkenfeld & Cliff Almond at the Baked Potato in LA on Friday. Really great show!! Forgot to get a good look at his pedalboard though. (Too busy watching Tal!) Does anyone know what all he uses? I know there is a MoogerFooger Ring Mod, and octaver, a Boss DD3 and a Crybaby. But I am curious as to the other 3 or 4 pedals he has. I guess the one I would be most interested to hear about would be his looper. He was getting the craziest, grooviest loops going and then playing on top of them, with the band. It sounded nothing like the mostly mellow, Mike Stern or almost Metheney sounding clips I have seen on YouTube of his. More like Landau or Henderson I thought. Not much gear info on the web, at least that I could find.

Anyway, I got the magazine today (My Borders had it :-) and so I'm off to enjoy some good reading and see what I can learn about this amazing player.

John


I got to hang with Wanye a lot this past weekend, we have mutual friends... Anyway you nailed most of his pedalboard, anout the only things missing were, an Analogman BD-2, and he didn't use a looper it was just a DD-5 or DD-6, he had a TB loop for his tuner and the RV-3.

Oh and I took a lesson with him yesterday. :BEER

[scadet]

Thanks GtrWiz,

That's cool that you have connects and got some quality time with him. My mag had his gear in it, and you are correct, no looper. It was a loop bypass unit. My bad. The music I heard was so intense, and I assumed there was a looper involved.

Take it easy,
John

[GtrWiz]

I can understand why you might think that it was a looper, he was doing some crazy stuff with it!:RoCkIn

what mag?

[Clifford-D]

I can understand why you might think that it was a looper, he was doing some crazy stuff with it!:RoCkIn

what mag?
Guitar Player (Slash on cover)

The month is almost over, don't wait to get it.

[GovernorSilver]

Glad I picked up this month's Guitar Player! Worth the $6 to read more about Krantz's Zone concept (not to be confused, I'm sure with the "zone concept" taught in a book by Bay-Christiansen (http://www.baysidepress.com/home.asp?ProductID=97195BCD)) for improvisational practice. It's an interesting way to force oneself to truly improvise instead of falling back on favorite licks - at least for those of us who are jealous of the freedom guys like Krantz, Holdsworth, Henderson, etc. appear to enjoy on their fretboards. Clifford was nice enough to post an example application of the concept (thanks!).

[mike walker]

Been teaching the restricted approach for many years fellas. Slap yourself in the first five frets and get your maj scales down from the highest to the lowest note, without any open strings. Once you can switch between any scale without stopping try switching in the middle of one scale , say Ab maj, to another scale, say Fmaj, without breaking the flow. Once you can do this, improvise in quarter notes, then 8th notes etc over mixed maj chords kinda like;

B /// Ab /// D /// F/// etc. Experiment.

Good luck fellas


http://www.mike-walker.co.uk/audio/Therewillneverbeanuddereweextract.mp3

[j_uc]

Mike, sorry but English is not my native language - what does "slap yourself in the first five frets" mean, "limit yourself to the first five frets"?
Thanks,
j

[Clifford-D]

Mike, sorry but English is not my native language - what does "slap yourself in the first five frets" mean, "limit yourself to the first five frets"?
Thanks,
j
That's hot guitar talk for "play in a four fret area"

Hot guitar players are always slapping something around. :)

[GovernorSilver]

Been teaching the restricted approach for many years fellas. Slap yourself in the first five frets and get your maj scales down from the highest to the lowest note, without any open strings. Once you can switch between any scale without stopping try switching in the middle of one scale , say Ab maj, to another scale, say Fmaj, without breaking the flow. Once you can do this, improvise in quarter notes, then 8th notes etc over mixed maj chords kinda like;

B /// Ab /// D /// F/// etc. Experiment.

Good luck fellas


http://www.mike-walker.co.uk/audio/Therewillneverbeanuddereweextract.mp3

Come to think of it, I've seen similar advice to practice the scales in 4ths in Jazz Theory Book by Levine and David Baker's book for jazz bass/cello. For example, practice C major, then F major, then Bb major, etc. I suppose the idea is to get used to switching tonal centers on the fly, especially with harmony going up/down along the circle of 5ths.

It's something I haven't bothered to try yet, so I'll get on that asap.

Thanks!

[mike walker]

Sorry j,
It means exactly what ya thought. Switch those tonal centres in random chords Governer. In 4ths too many notes correspond so it's easier to find the key whilst playing notes that apply to both scales, whereas if you go form F to B or A to Eb for instance, there's more chance of a balls up. And balls ups are better measurements to progress.
Is all that clear? I just read it back and i'm not so sure. It's early in manchester england and i ain't had my cornflakes!!

[GovernorSilver]

Governer. In 4ths too many notes correspond so it's easier to find the key whilst playing notes that apply to both scales, whereas if you go form F to B or A to Eb for instance, there's more chance of a balls up. And balls ups are better measurements to progress.
Is all that clear? I just read it back and i'm not so sure. It's early in manchester england and i ain't had my cornflakes!!

My bandmate and I once fantasized about moving to Manchester to immerse ourselves in the scene. Never mind the little details like being American and moving into the UK, finding new jobs, etc.

David Baker's book (Jazz Expressions for Bass Clef) has the scales laid out in such an order that you do the scale in C, then F, then Bb, etc. until you eventually work through all 12 keys. Not sure if I'm actually ready for more random transitions in key centers but I'll give it a go after I move (not to UK, sadly) and get set up again.

The Wayne Krantz masterclass article also mentions his zone practice being applied to chords, as a way of letting go of favorite chord "grips" (I'm still stuck with my grips to an extent - for example, when I see a min7 I go for the same grips 99% of the time out of habit). Discover new chord fingerings on the fly, and forget about them after you're gone kind of deal.

And finally, it concludes with a reminder that all his zone stuff is for practice only, not for playing on the bandstand. ;)

[mike walker]

Let me know if ya get over here. A coffee and a chat will be waiting.
I agree 100%. Leave practice off the bandstand. Just play, improvise, sing from within. Let all the scales, and licks and practice stuff catch up when it's ready to. Never force it. It'll sound contrived and tight and a little desperate if it's forced.

[GovernorSilver]

Nice demo of the book material, I suppose, playing "Green Earrings" with Steely Dan:

http://nl.youtube.com/watch?v=IBiPGfrDmng&feature=related

[hangten]

badass playing as usual.

notice how his picking hand position is similar to that of one EVH.

my body doesn't work that way...unfortunately.

[LR1400]

Nice demo of the book material, I suppose, playing "Green Earrings" with Steely Dan:

http://nl.youtube.com/watch?v=IBiPGfrDmng&feature=related

WOW! Always hear WK can/did play like that but haven't heard much of it. Pretty cool to hear him go off like that. I prefer his more groove based playing but prefer him playing on songs.

Killer.

[jzucker]

wow, he's absolutely brilliant. Too bad he doesn't get more press.

[Ollie]

http://www.guitarplayer.com/article/get-zone-intriguing/jun-08/36177

In case anyone mwanted to read the article examples on the right. :AOK

[Prof. O'Kaine]

seeing that video brings back memories. I saw them in 95. Unfortunately, Wayne was not with them. I vividly remember that when Walter Becker did some tracks off of his solo record, about half the auditorium went to go buy a beer or take a piss! Hearing him noodle over the first couple of versus of that song reminds me why everybody vacated the auditorium :-)

back to Wayne; is OS book is brilliant. I notice now how many people follow his question/answer format in their own books now. In addition, I use this concept of zones in a very basic way to teach my students at the university. Even just doing it for garden-variety arpeggios (Major seven, -7, half diminished, dominant) in the zones either through the circle, removing the zone up and half steps or down and half steps is really quite a serious assignment! Not to mention, the rest of the 2048 other things you can do with this!

Wayne Krantz has really evolved since the Steely Dan days. What a brilliant player! He used to offer lessons on his website. They were not personal one-on-one lessons, but nonetheless they were very inexpensive! And I believe he's not doing that anymore, but I could be wrong.

Cheers,

[GtrWiz]

Wayne Krantz has really evolved since the Steely Dan days. What a brilliant player! He used to offer lessons on his website. They were not personal one-on-one lessons, but nonetheless they were very inexpensive! And I believe he's not doing that anymore, but I could be wrong.

Cheers,



I just checked, they're still up. $5 each.

[Prof. O'Kaine]

Brilliant!

[RichardB]

WK is just fantastic. I just love his sound. So warm and woody and organic but w/ that quacky bite.

2 things:

1. The Steely vid has WK's gtr effected w/ chorus. I hate the way that chorus masks his personal sound, I am pretty sure that the FOH guy was slapping some chorus on his gtr unbeknownst to WK. I seem to recall WK mentioning he was appalled to hear that the sound idiot had been "fixing" up his sound.

2. WK told me he thinks the gtr player w/ the greatest time ever is George Benson

[LR1400]

WK is just fantastic. I just love his sound. So warm and woody and organic but w/ that quacky bite.

2 things:

1. The Steely vid has WK's gtr effected w/ chorus. I hate the way that chorus masks his personal sound, I am pretty sure that the FOH guy was slapping some chorus on his gtr unbeknownst to WK. I seem to recall WK mentioning he was appalled to hear that the sound idiot had been "fixing" up his sound.

2. WK told me he thinks the gtr player w/ the greatest time ever is George Benson

I agree with WK on both accounts. I remember hearing WK say he didn't like the chorus as well. Awesome he digs GB, how can you not? I am sure GB would dig him.

[tvegas99]

can't wait to see him tomorrow night with Kneebody (killer band) at Galapagos

anyone else goin'?

[jackULL]

just got my copy today. will read & post some questions later on. at first glance, it looks like very handy. reminds me of the eis course in terms of formula...

-j

[TopDog]

I saw Wayne Krantz in August with Cliff Arnold (d) and Paul Socolow (b) at the 55 Bar in NYC. My first time seeing him solo, I have seen him with Steely Dan and with Donald Fagen.

He is an innovator when it comes to guitar paying -IMO. I think he's the Coltrane or Coleman of guitar. There's nothing conventional in his playing from what I can hear. The guy is in a class all by him self.

I have a few of his CDs live from the 55 bar, but to see him up close and in person (I was about 5 feet away) was an experience.

WK walked in about 10 minutes before the start and set up his own gear. Then the band had a 5 minute rehearsal which was a discussion prior to their start, which at the end of the discussion the drummer and bass payer looked at Krantz with a "you gotta be kidding look" and insecurely acknowledged the changes Krantz had just explained to them. During the set, they both watched every move WK made watching for his cues. It was amazing how they transitioned in and out of grooves, keys and time feels. WK had his eyes closed the whole time. I don't think I heard a pentatonic scale, or any scales for that matter. Just Sheets of sound!

His sense of time is RIDICULOUS!!!

[jackULL]

OK, just got a good 4 hrs of practicing 2 formula over 2 zones. In fact I mostly do just 1 formula(5-note), then tried to see the effect of weaving the 2nd formula superimposed per his suggestion. I wander what's everybody's take on this exercises strictly within a given zone. Definitely, a lifetime worth of information OS :bow

-j

[Clifford-D]

The idea is to play all twelve tones within the confines of a four fret spread.

It's not a lifetime thing, all those notes have always been available. In real playing
you would weave in and out of formulae. Some of it's in and some take you out.

To play formulae without thinking about it. Where tones that were once dissonent
are now stable tones. Octave displacement occures, all chords are in there in some
form.
Not easy, requires advanced hearing and singing.

Keeping it to four frets, that's like a new instrument.
it's brilliantly nuts.

[jackULL]

The idea is to play all twelve tones within the confines of a four fret spread.

It's not a lifetime thing, all those notes have always been available. In real playing
you would weave in and out of formulae. Some of it's in and some take you out.

To play formulae without thinking about it. Where tones that were once dissonent
are now stable tones. Octave displacement occures, all chords are in there in some
form.
Not easy, requires advanced hearing and singing.

Keeping it to four frets, that's like a new instrument.
it's brilliantly nuts.

Just like horn players, they only have one zone imo. That 4fret zone really force me to play the available possible chord/harmony which sometimes sounds great. I also started to limit myself playing over standard changes over the same zone. It also forces me to think of a note or interval instead of habitual patterns. Will see over time if it helps me sounding different than usual as I haven't pick up my instrument in nearly 5 yrs. as I mostly writes. How long have you been using this OS exercises Clifford-D?

[Clifford-D]

Just like horn players, they only have one zone imo. That 4fret zone really force me to play the available possible chord/harmony which sometimes sounds great. I also started to limit myself playing over standard changes over the same zone. It also forces me to think of a note or interval instead of habitual patterns. Will see over time if it helps me sounding different than usual as I haven't pick up my instrument in nearly 5 yrs. as I mostly writes. How long have you been using this OS exercises Clifford-D?
I've owned the book for around four years but I have backed off
on exclusive practice, just working on integration with regular playing.
That will take the rest of this life easy. Even Wayne Krantz continues
his journey with this. We all continue our journey. There is no end.

[jackULL]

how do you integrate it with your playing? do you pick a formulae base on a given chord say maj with(3), min with(b3) & dom with(b7) ?
I understand that WK play both melodically & harmonically together. just wandering if there's another harmonically playing instrument, how to integrate the formula. thanks.