Bass players - Mic or D.I. your amp at live shows? [Archive]

tedzepplin

04-14-2007, 09:54 AM

I was at a show last night and even though a bass amp was on stage and it was turned on, I couldn't hear sound out of it. the bass guitar only made sound after the PA sound guy turned up the Bass guitar in the mains.

during the night night the bass player kept asking for more bass in the monitor even though she was standing right in front of her amp.

The bass sound was crap of course. It sounded like plugging the bass straight into a PA power amp - super clean, no tone shaping or growl, no personality.

Do PA sound guys insist on D.I. just because it's the easiest way to get a low bass signal into the PA? Why do most sound guys think Bass should bypass the amp and give every bass player the same sterile sound? How long do you think guitarists would put up with this??? "let's turn off that guitar amp of yours - plug straight into this D.I., it will be a much better, pure signal - trust me."

This drives me nuts because the sound of a bass coming out of a growly Ampeg tube amp sounds so good. What is so difficult about micing a great sounding bass cab?

When my band starts to play shows I'm really dreading my bass player getting stuck with a sterile sound.

Does anyone have any tips for pursuading the sound guy to mic the cab? or let the bass player crank his SVT? I'm hoping for a growly, slightly overdriven (not fuzz) sound for classic Punk (The Strangler's bass sound is a good example). Not a super clean sound.

John Phillips

04-14-2007, 10:14 AM

Two ways:

Point blank refuse to let him DI the bass.

Turn the amp up to the point it doesn't matter whether you're going through the PA or not anyway. (You should be able to manage that with an SVT ;).)

:)

OK, maybe slightly too confrontational, but I'm with you all the way. I absolutely detest the way most soundmen want to DI the bass, not even the amp, let alone mic it. The sound of a bass DI'd into the PA sound just exactly like that... like a DI'd guitar. Flat, bland and uninspiring, to me. OK, both the bass player in my band, and me when I'm playing bass, like overdriven/distorted/fuzzed bass sounds using pedals, which is usually a way of persuasion, since DI'ing that sounds horrible... it needs to at least go through the amp, if not through the speakers as well. You could maybe try that - the standard Boss Bass Overdrive is OK, although I prefer the ProCo Juggernaut (bass Rat).

Why do soundmen do it? Not sure... probably a mixture of laziness and a misguided belief that bass 'needs' to be clean. In fact, it tends to sit better in the mix if it's at least slightly growly - not necessarily actually clipped, but at least 'harmonically richened'. Really professional soundmen usually do mic the cab, anyway - you'll see it done like that at most proper rock-star level gigs.

BTW, JJ Burnel used a Marshall guitar amp for bass, as far as I know. Cool sound.

Whiskeyrebel

04-14-2007, 10:25 AM

Does a Redbox only work on guitar or is there a bass version? At you'd be getting the amp's full signal path up to the speakers.

trpullen

04-14-2007, 11:12 AM

When playing 'important' bass gigs, I will usually use my SansAmp BassDI as my source to the board. It sounds amazing, really warms up the tone and frankly sounds like a mic'd SVT.

I have also been known to run a mic on a 410 cab as well as direct off the back of the amp and them mix them at the board when channels are available.

Mic'd bass is very hard to do live. Most don't have the right mics for it. An SM57 will not cut it and the AKG D12s are in the kick drums. Nobody carries 3 or 4 of those.

rockbutt

04-14-2007, 11:34 AM

tedzepplin

04-14-2007, 01:38 PM

Get a slightly older guy like me who can walk into a show and intimidate the guys running the board. This should get you where you're going.

You're hired!:D

pete kanaras

04-14-2007, 04:08 PM

i mic the cab, every single time. that is what i like. i don't care if a 57 is all they have i mic the damn cab and never use a di for live work. a B15 cab/ bassman head/ Pbass with flats; man i've worked for years to get the sound i want and using a di would just obliterate it. ymmv

D.G.

04-14-2007, 06:42 PM

A bass SansAmp will save your ass. But I still require an amp onstage.

Jarrett

04-14-2007, 07:20 PM

When playing 'important' bass gigs, I will usually use my SansAmp BassDI as my source to the board. It sounds amazing, really warms up the tone and frankly sounds like a mic'd SVT.

This is the answer. Get a SansAmp Bass Driver DI made by Tech21. Tell him to plug into that and KYA! :)

Here's the original:

http://www.tech21nyc.com/bassdriver.html

And they even have a cool looking new version:

http://www.tech21nyc.com/bassdriver_p.html

rod horncastle

04-14-2007, 07:51 PM

I've been having the same problem for awhile now. I just bought a Sans Amp Bass Driver D.I. - I love it. Sounds better than alot of average Bass amps I've tried. It's got an overdrive built into it too. Well worth the Money. very tweakable.

I'm just curious! Don't most GOOD bass amps have an XLR out to the board? Shouldn't this be better than a Bass Driver D.I.? Especially from a nice tube amp?

John Phillips

04-15-2007, 05:56 AM

I'm just curious! Don't most GOOD bass amps have an XLR out to the board? Shouldn't this be better than a Bass Driver D.I.? Especially from a nice tube amp?
Many, but not all, do. But even then, there are soundmen who will argue with you about it, or try to set the amp's DI output to 'pre EQ' if it has the option. And you still don't get the speaker coloration, which is very important - especially for overdriven sounds, or you hear those nasty high harmonics that the speaker naturally won't reproduce. (Although actually I do like to hear them a little, with a fuzz bass sound - it gives a crackly, bass-synth-like edge - you need a tweeter in the cab to get that without DI'ing.)

I hate to say it, but I agree with rockbutt that you often have to start out confrontational to get it how you want. Letting them DI a pedalboard with a fuzz on it and deliberately making it as nasty as possible to the board will help get your point across :). If you play something with the fuzz turned right up they'll probably be worried about frying the PA cabs... then you can suggest mic'ing the bass amp as a way to protect them.

tedzepplin

04-15-2007, 07:37 AM

What mics are good for micing a bass cab for a live show?
thanks!

2 Loud 4 You

04-15-2007, 10:37 AM

I played a club once where the soundman was bragging about how good he bass tones were. After our set when of our fans who knew everything like the back of his hand said it was the worst he'd ever heard my bass sound. The next time around I MADE him mic me and I turned it up. At the time I played a 4/10 and 2/15.

TedZepplin, AKG D112. If you're serious about how it sounds go buy one because they MIGHT have one at the club and if so it'll be in the kick. My old drumer bought one to make sure he had his kick mic'ed right.

Dutchman

04-15-2007, 09:12 PM

I like the sound direct from the guitar to a DI, Sans Amp etc then to a compressor and then a EQ
(both in the rack) then to the board. I always have the Bass player come out front during sound check and tell me the tone they want. Some like it flat some want brassy sounding, the lisy goes on. It's their sound. They always seem happy with the tone. They can dial in the tone they want on stage but the PA's gonna kick louder than the stage volume most times. And if it isn't I cut off the Beer until it does :Devil

Like I could do that :crazy

musicofanatic5

04-16-2007, 12:33 AM

My old P-bass does not sound dead, sterile, lifeless, flat, bland, uninspiring, and in fact sounds quite the opposite. I have gotten killer recordings with this bass straight in. I have had soundmen want to use that sans amp thing as a D.I., and I always say, "sure, if you can set all those damn knobs flat", which they probably can't. I do not play no heavy metal, so I do not want fuzztone on my bass sound. My P-bass through a "hi-fi" rig with flat eq sounds stupendous.

The Golden Boy

04-16-2007, 09:18 AM

How long do you think guitarists would put up with this??? "let's turn off that guitar amp of yours - plug straight into this D.I., it will be a much better, pure signal - trust me."

After taking YEARS of finding what sounds good to me, and it is the combination of bass, head and cab- to obliterate that for the sake of laziness... it doesn't please me. I do understand the give & take involved- and I do understand it's more difficult to mic the speakers. I prefer 15s- that's my sound, it's not a sound you're getting any other way. For ease of use, I just use the Post EQ setting of my amp's DI. Most every soundguy I've worked with has been accomodating about using the DI on the amp. Some older amps will have the DI to a set volume (or controlled by the main volume) - and I assume those are Post EQ- Those can be a problem- but these days, most amps will have a Pre/Post selection, variable output volume, and a ground lift.

I still believe the most awesome live bass sound I ever had was at an outdoor festival- I knew the sound guy and the monitor guy- big huge stage- He mic'ed my cab and ran me really heavy through the sidefill on my side. Not only was I getting my 2x15 cab, but I was getting that same sound from an awesome sidefill. Pants fillingly awesome.

The same goes for recording the bass. I'll have engineers say to run the DI or use their DI- no ****ing way. Every single time they'll run a mic on the cab and then run the DI- and when they hear the difference the DI line will either be completely removed or pulled way down in the mix. If I'm paying to have a recording, I'm going to want it to sound the way I want it to sound. The only time I've ever relented was when we won some recording time for one song- engineer was a jackass and I truly didn't care about the way he was running anything about that session. And, as I figured, the bass came out sounding flat- it was run through a preamp of some sort, but it still lacked depth.

I'm waiting for the pro sound guy to post. The guy that's never met me before that knows exactly what kind of bass tone I'm trying to achieve. Which is obviously just like Flea or Jaco.

tedzepplin

04-19-2007, 07:54 AM

http://www.thegearpage.net/board/showthread.php?t=237735
I didn't know how to move this thread so here's a link at least.
cool to have a bass section at the gearpage!

Scott Peterson

04-19-2007, 08:07 AM

http://www.thegearpage.net/board/showthread.php?t=237735
I didn't know how to move this thread so here's a link at least.
cool to have a bass section at the gearpage!

Moved and merged for you. You just had to ask!

BigMikeW

04-19-2007, 09:00 AM

I have done both in my career. I have also used SansAmp and Line6 direct to the board. Sounds fantasstic.

There are a lot of of really good sounding tube DI's these days that sound thick and phat in the mix.

The REDDI is amazing, the Demeter is very nice, haven't tried the Aggie tube di or the GT Brick/Ditto box DI's but hear they sound great as well.

As far as FOH engineers go, I try and befriend them and subtly show them I know whaty I am talking about. It seems easier then to tell them what I need and what I may be hearing that needs correcting.

fakeox

04-19-2007, 10:00 AM

Oh Hell, both if possible!:JAM

d7music

04-19-2007, 10:39 AM

I run it out the direct out of my SWR 550X. :RoCkIn

dillonfiore

04-19-2007, 10:54 AM

I have a sans amp bass di for sale in the emporium section if you want to go that route. Best thing is to tell the sound guy how you want it though.

agreatheight

04-19-2007, 04:42 PM

Wow, you all are 180 degrees from where I am at. I let the sound guy DI me every time.

• What you hear in the stage monitors is not what you hear in the FOH. Monitors on small stages are usually tailored vocals, they have 10" or 12"s in them. They are designed to push vocal frequencies loud before feedback. They will reproduce bass badly. The PA in front will have a range of speakers, including bigger speakers that are better for reproducing bass, usually 15" or 18"s.

• If you bring a loud enough amp you should be able to get plenty of volume and coverage for the stage. I have never needed my bass in the monitors, except on occasional large outdoor stages.

• Mic'ing a bass cab live is problematic at best. The chance of them having an extra mic suitable for bass is very small. IMO, a 57 is not suitable for bass cabs; it almost always sounds bad. In addition, close mic'ing cabs is necessary in live situations to reduce bleed and feedback, and is not necessarily the best way to mic a bass cab, due to how bass waves form.

• A good bass will sound fine through a decent direct box into the board. In the front of the house. Period.

• Don't piss off a sound man by telling them how to do their job, not a good idea. You will sound worse for it.

IMO & YMMV.

kipknee

04-19-2007, 05:11 PM

I've been running bass bass direct to the board for about 20 years now, either through a good DI-box or via the DI out of the head. Lately, I've been using an SWR Baby Blue. It's loud enough to serve as a bass monitor for my ears and the DI tone is good enough that the sound man would have to really work hard to screw it up.

I will say that if the choice is between miking and running a POS generic, passive DI, then go with the mike.

+1000 for the little SansAmp Bass-DI. It's a miracle worker.

John Phillips

04-19-2007, 05:28 PM

• What you hear in the stage monitors is not what you hear in the FOH. Monitors on small stages are usually tailored vocals, they have 10" or 12"s in them. They are designed to push vocal frequencies loud before feedback. They will reproduce bass badly.

• If you bring a loud enough amp you should be able to get plenty of volume and coverage for the stage. I have never needed my bass in the monitors, except on occasional large outdoor stages.I agree, which is why you should never rely on the stage monitors for bass (and because putting bass in them reduces their ability to reproduce vocals clearly, so the vocals have to be louder in them and hence closer to feedback). You need a bass amp which you can hear properly on stage, period.

• Mic'ing a bass cab live is problematic at best. The chance of them having an extra mic suitable for bass is very small. IMO, a 57 is not suitable for bass cabs; it almost always sounds bad. In addition, close mic'ing cabs is necessary in live situations to reduce bleed and feedback, and is not necessarily the best way to mic a bass cab, due to how bass waves form.I agree, which is why I'd usually accept DI'ing the amp, live - at least short of any stage size where you can really mic it properly.

• A good bass will sound fine through a decent direct box into the board. In the front of the house. Period.I completely disagree. It sounds like a DI'd bass... you don't get any of the natural harmonic richening, EQ or compression of the amp. Yes, you could add these with a preamp at the desk, but firstly I've never seen a one in any normal PA set-up, secondly you're relying on the soundman to set it right, and thirdly why bother trying to duplicate it when you've already got your amp set right on stage? Worse, if the sound through the mains is different from what you're hearing on stage, you may not be getting the correct feedback about your playing tone dynamics - the full-range sound through the PA is usually much more sensitive to pops and transients than your amp is.

• Don't piss off a sound man by telling them how to do their job, not a good idea. You will sound worse for it.I also agree (and have been on the other side of the argument a lot of times, I've done sound too), but sometimes the soundman's idea of your bass sound is just plain wrong, and you need the ability to get it right on stage - that will at least give some hope that it will be close to right out front...

Yes, this does assume that both the soundman and the bass player know what they're doing. If one of them doesn't it can turn into a battle. Even as a soundman, I'd still much rather work with a DI'd amp than a DI'd bass, though.

The Golden Boy

04-19-2007, 05:43 PM

• A good bass will sound fine through a decent direct box into the board. In the front of the house. Period.

I disagree vehemently.

There's the whole issue of who says it sounds "fine." I want my bass to sound like I want my bass to sound- not necessarily how the sound guy wants my bass to sound.

It's cool to add some compression- or tweaks in the EQ for the particular PA or room, but to allow the soundguy to have full control completey defeats any reason for having an amp, or caring about what you sound like.

agreatheight

04-19-2007, 09:20 PM

I disagree vehemently.

There's the whole issue of who says it sounds "fine." I want my bass to sound like I want my bass to sound- not necessarily how the sound guy wants my bass to sound.

It's cool to add some compression- or tweaks in the EQ for the particular PA or room, but to allow the soundguy to have full control completey defeats any reason for having an amp, or caring about what you sound like.

But that's how it is. The sound guy controls EVERYONES sound in the front of the house. There is no changing that, barring you playing bass from behind the board.

I can understand everyone's wanting to get their sound from their amp to the people in the crowd, but it's kind of unrealistic and generally speaking implausable if not impossible.

I let go of this a long time ago. I have found some soundmen do a great job, some not so much. Those are the breaks. You want the sound guy to work on your tone? Buy him a beer and have a chat, don't yell at him.

And I said a bass -> DI -> PA sounds fine. And I think it does - IMO and YMMV. Notice I didn't say amazing or breathtaking, but fine. Even in what I thought was my personal worst live mix ever, I have never heard anyone complain about my bass tone. Not once, and I have played a lot of shows. I have also heard myself sound excellent out in the front. In some cases I have gotten some complients. But never any complaints. Which means it sounds fine.

agreatheight

04-19-2007, 09:29 PM

I completely disagree. It sounds like a DI'd bass... you don't get any of the natural harmonic richening, EQ or compression of the amp. Yes, you could add these with a preamp at the desk, but firstly I've never seen a one in any normal PA set-up, secondly you're relying on the soundman to set it right, and thirdly why bother trying to duplicate it when you've already got your amp set right on stage? Worse, if the sound through the mains is different from what you're hearing on stage, you may not be getting the correct feedback about your playing tone dynamics - the full-range sound through the PA is usually much more sensitive to pops and transients than your amp is.

I agree that a bass through an amp, well eq'd, sounds great / wonderful / frickin' awesome. But I still think any decent bass into a decent DI into the board will sound 'fine.' As for compression / eq... any soundman worth his / her salt will send the bass to the buss compressing the kick, so you should be getting compression in most venues. And the pres on the board will have eq, so there is tone shaping available. Will he compress & eq to your standard? Prolly not. But it should still sound fine.

Maybe I have worked only with good soundmen? :D Maybe I am a better soundman than most? :D I guess I just don't have the same problems you all do!

PB+J

04-19-2007, 09:48 PM

I use a really good Di as the preamp in my rig--the Avalon U5. I don't want any distortion in my tone though. As far as controlling things, I gave up on that long ago. From the stage, you can't tell what you sound like in the crowd; it's going to be different depending on where you are; it's going to change as the room fills up. What you hear on the stage is just not what the audience hears.

Bullying the sound guy is a really bad idea, IMHO--you can't tell what he's doing to your sound and there's zero point in antagonizing him.

My feeling is I do my best to play well and have fun, and let go. I give the sound guy a really good, clean signal, and then let it go. If the audience is happy then your sound is good. end of story. But that's just my approach

bikeplate

04-19-2007, 10:54 PM

HI

DI almost 100%. There are some shows I do where the club has a dedicated PA and soundman. They generally do both for me. DI from my Epifani UL502 and mike in front of one of my 10" speakers. He told me he sends one signal above a certain frequency, the other below. Cant remember the specific one. All I know is I walked out front with my wireless during soundcheck and it sounded fantastic!!!

Rob

BigMikeW

04-19-2007, 10:58 PM

Bullying the sound guy is a really bad idea, IMHO--you can't tell what he's doing to your sound and there's zero point in antagonizing him.

+1 I will go further and say this. I have always taken the time to meet them before a gig. If it is outside, send a 12 pack of cold soda's to them as a thank you. They have a tough job to do and pissing them off will only hurt you in the end. I go out of my way to be nice and even suck up a little if I think it is necessary. As Musical Director for a couple artist (one now, several in the past) I want to make sure the artist sounds great. If kissing a little ass or just doing something nice gets them on my side them it is worth it.

jokerjkny

04-20-2007, 02:25 AM

like bikeP, i go DI, maybe 100% of the time for most live shows.

mic'ing an amp cab is fine, too, but frankly, i've been blessed with terrific soundmen, who i gladly hand them good tones from my epifani 902's DI out or demeter tube DI to work with.

only if i'm doing a particular rock show where the director'll tell me to use a pick, or if they have an SVT rig do i see the old mic setup.

tedzepplin

04-20-2007, 07:01 AM

alanbass1

04-20-2007, 08:48 AM

You are right in as much as going DI, typically pre eq, means you are totally at the mercy of the soundman. As these people do not really know the band or the sound you want to create it's a nonsense for them to dictate how you sound out front. Also, speakers have as much to do with shaping tone than the amp.

I actually take my own AKG 414 mic, stand and lead to a gig and always take time out when the band is unloading/setting up to hunt out the soundman and talk about using this. I always make a point of saying that I want to run my amp as low as possible on stage (just enough for me to hear) and will be relying heavily on some bass through the monitors. This gives the PA guy confidence that you are not trying to 'wreck' the out front balance they need to achieve. I get more confidence that if the soundman can hear the tone from my cab, when they need to make adjustments to account for room acoustics they at least have a chance to preserve the essence of this.

jokerjkny

04-20-2007, 08:51 AM

I think different people might be expecting different sounds out of their basses. The sound my bass player wants can not possibly be achieved running direct from the bass to the PA board even if compression and EQ are used. The sound of his tubes overdriving are an important part of his sound. Just like I could never achieve my guitar sound by plugging direct to the board.

As far as bullying the sound person - sure no one should have to bully anyone. But remember the sound person should not bully the bass player into having to go direct from the bass. that's bullying too.

If micing a cab is too difficult, why don't we all go direct? all drummers should start using electronic drum pads and guitarists should go direct too. any acoustic element should be removed.:crazyguy

couple thoughts...

you're absolutely right. that compressed gritty rock sound that your bass player wants to achieve is helped tremendously by going all mic'ed up. the interaction btwn the overdrive and speakers needs a mic, no doubt. but, i'd bet that if your bass player added a DI'ed signal to the board along w/ that mic, it'd be MUCH more articulate and defined sounding. ;)

but vice versa, for that pristine, clean as a whistle, defined, articulate, clear bass tone that many bassists, such as myself go for, the only way is by going DI. god forbid, but lots of bass players love that DI sound. just ask the great anthony jackson. and many of the boutique cab companies like acme, accugroove, euphonic audio, bergantino IP series, all strive for a neutral clean bass sound that's very PA like. the aforementioned anthony jackson regularly uses meyer sound PA cabs for his setup! heck, i loved soooo much the sound of my sadowsky basses when i first heard them thru a pair of killer monitors, that for live, i used an avalon u5 / stewart 1.2 / acme B-4 cab setup for a few years. add in my trusty parametric EQ, and i was also able to "tune" out those boomy annoying frequencies and find a killer bass sound for whatever room i was in.

again, that overdriven, rock bass tone is a nice sound to have in the arsenal, but on the whole, for most louder fusion, hiphop, funk, r&b, gospel, dance, electronica, most pop music, etc. all else being equal, that rock sound is just too sloppy to cut it in those idioms. (and i'm not talking about that subsonic bass "boom" you hear coming from a car stereo either.)

as for soundmen, they will invariably have a much larger impact on the overall sound of a band than any single person in said band. the house soundman will know the room better than any one person in the band, thus, i'll usually defer to their needs. if swallowing my pride is going to help the band/music sound best, i'll do my best to comply.

i'm glossing over a ton of stuff, but again, if there's anything i've realized in the past couple of years being a bass player, i'm realizing that the bass isnt just an overgrown guitar. ;)

6stringer

04-22-2007, 05:04 PM

kipknee

04-22-2007, 05:29 PM

jeak

04-22-2007, 06:50 PM

Also check out the SansAmp Para Driver. It will do what the Bass Driver will do and much more. Could come in handy if you ever need it for acoustic instruments as well. The manual shows typical Bass Driver settings and several others.

dillonfiore

04-23-2007, 01:42 PM

I prefer to mic my cab, but my head has a DI on the back. I wouldn't want to use the club's DI. I'm sorry, but if you have a high end head and cab set up, there is no way using a DI box into the club's PA will sound as good. I don't complain if they want to use the DI on my head.

I don't think anybody is suggesting bullying the sound guy. Everytime I have said, "I would rather mic the bass cabs if possible." The sound guy has always been understanding. Never been a problem for me.

RickC

04-23-2007, 03:58 PM

I go with whatever works. The Thunderfunk has an XLR preamp out, which is preferred. In an ideal case, I get this plus a mike on the cab. Worst case is when they only want to run a direct from the bass itself, but if that's the deal I don't fight it; do the best with what you've been given.

I totally agree with the notion of not confronting or bullying the sound guy, no matter what. As has been pointed out, there are a lot of variables to consider, a number of things to be balanced, and hate to break it to you but the tone of the bass is not the most important thing about your band's sound no matter who you are. Clear vocals and lead instruments are. Having full control over the bass in foh is critical I think; I'd want it if I were doing sound. I've seen plenty of problems with bass players destroying a live mix with too loud and/or overbearing bass tone muddying everything else up.

You're a bass player; you're not the star of the show. Get used to it.

/rick

PB+J

04-23-2007, 06:59 PM

I agree completely with John Phillips.

Being an attorney I have learned that with sound guys you have to be conforntational right from the start, behaving like a bully, even if that is not your nature. Sound guys are usually stubborn, unfriendly, narrow minded and unwilling to comply with a musician's reasonable petition. Do not expect to obtain good results from them by being meek.

This post, on the first page, got me thinking about bullying the sound guy--it was probably the part where the word "bully" apeared!

I just can't see how there's any point at all in antagonizing the sound guy. He has a lot of things to worry about besides your tone, and he hears the mix in ways that you can't . I mean, you bully him, and then as soon as you start playing he's gong to do what he wants to your tone. If I wanted overdrive and the sound guy, for whatever reason, didn't want to mic my bass, I'd get a stomp box and use the DI

tedzepplin

04-23-2007, 07:16 PM

You're a bass player; you're not the star of the show. Get used to it.
I mean, you bully him, and then as soon as you start playing he's gong to do what he wants to your tone.
It's interesting how different people handle the situation.

I understand there are probably lots of people who think of the the bass as just something that fills in the low frequencies. Those people probably don't get hung up on the sound of the bass or actually do get the sound they want by going DI right out of the bass.

Then other bands have a bass sound that carries a melody and is a more equal instrument within the band - for example Joy Division or the Pretenders. I think it's these type of bands that really do need to maintain the desired sound of the bass. With a band like this, as soon as the sound guy bullies you into going DI right out of your bass, he's already messed up your sound. So, even if he gets offended that you want to try something other than a DI out of the bass, he's already ruined your sound so you don't really have anything to lose.

PB+J

04-23-2007, 08:35 PM

I think the whole "your sound" idea is just a fantasy--does it mean "your sound" ten feet from the amp? Or "your sound fifty feet back" or "your sound at the side of the hall in the 20 feet from the stage?" Does it mean your sound when the room is empty, or your sound when it's half full, or your sound when it's packed? Because they'll all be different. What does the rest of the band sound like in the room? I can't hear "my sound" unless, while the band is playing at full tilt, I go out and stand in various places in the crowd at various times in the gig.

For me, it's much better to be nice to the sound guy, ask him if he'll do x or y, and if he won't do what I want prefer--which is rety rare in my experience--politely give him a general sense of what I like to hear and then I let it go. It's much better to concentrate on playing well, with passion and commitment, than it is to stand there all night stewing about the sound guy's mid setting. Give the guy some props--he's the only one who actually hears what you AND the band sound like. There's no point in insisting on a sound that's yours but doesn't fit the context.

And if he doesn't know what he's doing, big deal--I've played hundreds of gigs where the drummer can't keep time, the guitar's out of tune, the room sounds terrible, there's only one dubious looking outlet, the overhead light introduce hellacious hum and buzz, etc. etc. Let it go and just play! The audience doesn't really hear tone, it hears energy, commitment and groove

So to go back to the topic, it seems to me the best solution for a less than perfect world is to always carry a good stompbox drive pedal and Di. That way you get in the ballpark of what you want without having to throw a hissy ft.

RickC

04-23-2007, 09:43 PM

Then other bands have a bass sound that carries a melody and is a more equal instrument within the band - for example Joy Division or the Pretenders. I think it's these type of bands that really do need to maintain the desired sound of the bass. With a band like this, as soon as the sound guy bullies you into going DI right out of your bass, he's already messed up your sound. So, even if he gets offended that you want to try something other than a DI out of the bass, he's already ruined your sound so you don't really have anything to lose.

It's a valid point; but if you feel that overdrive or some other effect in the bass is critical to the sound of your band, then you should provide a way to add that to the DI signal. Ultimately, in any big room situation, you are going to have to release ultimate control of your sound in the house to the sound guy. Until you get big enough to tour with your own system and crew.

And even in a band like the Pretenders for instance, I think you'd agree that getting Chrissie Hynde's vocal right is more important than growly bass; if there's a compromise that needs to be made, the bass is going to lose.

/rick

The Golden Boy

04-23-2007, 10:05 PM

You're a bass player; you're not the star of the show. Get used to it.

/rick
I think the whole "your sound" idea is just a fantasy--does it mean "your sound" ten feet from the amp? Or "your sound fifty feet back" or "your sound at the side of the hall in the 20 feet from the stage?" Does it mean your sound when the room is empty, or your sound when it's half full, or your sound when it's packed? Because they'll all be different. What does the rest of the band sound like in the room? I can't hear "my sound" unless, while the band is playing at full tilt, I go out and stand in various places in the crowd at various times in the gig.

For me, it's much better to be nice to the sound guy, ask him if he'll do x or y, and if he won't do what I want prefer--which is rety rare in my experience--politely give him a general sense of what I like to hear and then I let it go. It's much better to concentrate on playing well, with passion and commitment, than it is to stand there all night stewing about the sound guy's mid setting. Give the guy some props--he's the only one who actually hears what you AND the band sound like. There's no point in insisting on a sound that's yours but doesn't fit the context.

And if he doesn't know what he's doing, big deal--I've played hundreds of gigs where the drummer can't keep time, the guitar's out of tune, the room sounds terrible, there's only one dubious looking outlet, the overhead light introduce hellacious hum and buzz, etc. etc. Let it go and just play! The audience doesn't really hear tone, it hears energy, commitment and groove

So to go back to the topic, it seems to me the best solution for a less than perfect world is to always carry a good stompbox drive pedal and Di. That way you get in the ballpark of what you want without having to throw a hissy ft.
This is the forum where you have people that believe the audience can tell what brand strings you're playing, and the choice in amplification and instrumentation is key to a good sound, but what's being said is- "it doesn't matter what you play or what you sound like or what you would like to sound like, you'll take what you're given- and like it."

**** that.

My instruments were chosen for reasons, my amplifiers have been chosen for reasons and my cabinets were chosen for reasons. I care about the sound I'm making, and the way that sound interacts with the rest of the band. I'm in the band, I've rehearsed with the band and I've got a pretty good idea of how the band should sound. Post that '"I think the whole "your sound" idea is just a fantasy' idea elsewhere on this forum and see how that flies.

The sound guy's job is to take the sound the band is giving him and translate it to the room, not to make the band sound like he wants the band to sound. It is the sound guy's job to say "there's too much high end on the guitar, I will pull that down," it is the sound guy's job to say "I cannot hear the keyboards, I will turn them up," and it is the sound guy's job to say "the bass is indistinct for this room, I will pull some bottom out and add some mids." It is not the sound man's job to say "I think the guitar needs more chorus," or "I think it would be neat to digitally process the drums into glockenspiel tones," or "I want the bass to sound like Jaco (or Fieldy)."
but if you feel that overdrive or some other effect in the bass is critical to the sound of your band, then you should provide a way to add that to the DI signal.
It's called an amplifier.
Ultimately, in any big room situation, you are going to have to release ultimate control of your sound in the house to the sound guy. Until you get big enough to tour with your own system and crew.

And even in a band like the Pretenders for instance, I think you'd agree that getting Chrissie Hynde's vocal right is more important than growly bass; if there's a compromise that needs to be made, the bass is going to lose.

/rick
Where is the compromise "either a good vocal or a growly bass sound?" The idea is to reproduce the band as they wish to be heard within the limits of the room.

walterw

04-24-2007, 12:41 AM

the ironic thing is that, as someone who has ran plenty of sound in in both decent and less than decent situations (multiple bands with little set change time and marginal equipment, for example), i've found that with almost any kind of music, a good mic is easier, not harder, to dial in, taking less time and avoiding DI ground loop, impedance and level issues entirely. even 15's can sound great. my good d112 stays in the kick drum, but i use an older audio-technica kick mic for bass cabs and it works great. the natural compression, increased harmonic richness, and slight frequency narrowing from even "clean", hi-fi bass speakers is usually much easier to fit into a stage mix. also, any soundman who has "feedback" issues with mic'ed speakers is doing something wrong!

of course, when i play bass these days, it's a p-bass into a sansamp into the board, with the sansamp feeding whatever power amp/speaker combo i can scrape up to hear myself with.

John Phillips

04-24-2007, 03:19 AM

I totally agree that bullying the soundman is a bad idea.

The problem is that, as already said, the exact opposite is more common, especially in smaller venues... soundmen bullying band members into turning down and handing over total control to the desk - usually with the justification that 'you don't know what it sounds like from where you are'. Which is true up to a point - although for an experienced player, it's still insulting.

How many of us rehearse with everything mic'ed or DI'd through the PA and monitors? None, I would guess (not anyone below rock star level, anyway). So anyone with any kind of ears already knows roughly how to set their tone and volume so they can hear themselves and each other in a space. Whether that translates exactly into a good FOH sound isn't always a given, but at least it's a starting point. If you break that feedback loop between the musicians and their sound in context, how do they play together well, know how their EQ fits together, know how far up to turn for solos, etc? They don't, probably... so then the soundman has to take charge of levels, individual EQ etc, so completing a vicious circle and ending up where the soundman has complete control. Which can be fine if they're a trusted member of the band's circle, or a really good professional who can instinctively dial-in to a band, even if they don't know them (yes, I've worked with some like this too). But the average small-gig soundman isn't either of those things, and it's IMO one reason why so many small gigs sound like a muddy mess - because the musicians can't properly hear each other, they can at best just hear a muddled, wrong-sounding monitor mix which doesn't really bear any relation to either their own tone or the FOH sound either.

DI'ing the bass (not the amp) isn't the only cause of this, but IMO it's a significant factor. Likewise turning the guitar amps down too far is a problem, not a solution. Obviously it's equally difficult if someone insists on being too loud or having totally the wrong sound, and some musicians don't seem to be able to accept they are/do (usually because they have their amp badly positioned), but you have to at least hope that a balance can be reached... and reducing the number of different mixes - if you DI the bass directly and also run an amp and monitors on stage you could have at least three, none of which necessarily sound anything like each other - will help in achieving that.

So IMO it can sometimes be necessary to put your point across 'effectively' rather than just accept being pushed around, if you care about your band's sound and already know what you're doing. You can be assertive without being aggressive.

PB+J

04-24-2007, 05:12 AM

This is the forum where you have people that believe the audience can tell what brand strings you're playing, and the choice in amplification and instrumentation is key to a good sound, but what's being said is- "it doesn't matter what you play or what you sound like or what you would like to sound like, you'll take what you're given- and like it."

Nah, that's not what's being said. What's being said is that you can't exercise micro control of the situation, and that it's better to be nice to the guy to try to get what you want, but in the end, it's out of your control, so relax and play. It's not an especially radical message.

This is a forum where people believe audiences can tell what kind of strings you use--it is that kind of forum, but it's totally wrong. The audience A; can't tell, and B: doesn't care. I spend as much time as anyone fussing about gear, and the truth is, the people that matter the most can't tell the difference between your two brands of pickups, or whether you play boutique bass A or bass B, or use hi-beams or fat beams. That's just the truth. What they can hear and do care about is the emotional content of your playing; they can hear how well the band grooves based on the way you play. So work on that rather than browbeating the sound guy into boosting 200hz by 3 decibels

I say by all means try to get him to use a mic if that's what you want. In my experience, they usually have no problem with it. They usually ask at the set up "how many mics do you need?" If the guy refuses for some reason--and who knows, maybe he has a good reason--carry a stomp box. That's all.

dillonfiore

04-24-2007, 08:05 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by RickC http://www.thegearpage.net/board/images/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://www.thegearpage.net/board/showthread.php?p=2408328#post2408328)
You're a bass player; you're not the star of the show. Get used to it.

/rick

Take that Geddy Lee! In your face Les Claypool! Flea who?
My point is that in some bands the bass is just as, if not more, important than the rythm guitar. If you are a bass player that is only playing root notes that follow a guitar player, then yes by all means go DI. However, I don't think that is what the majority of the people on this forum do.

kipknee

04-24-2007, 08:27 AM

You're a bass player; you're not the star of the show. Get used to it.

Yeah, this sentence cracked me up also. This sounds like a cop-out to me.
What I'm used to is the band working together to making good music. That means everyone working hard to hone their skills and their tone (individually AND complementary) to the finest point possible. If everyone had the attitude that subtle nuance was going to be lost on the audience, then the band would sound like crap. As a person that has played as much guitar as bass over the last 30+ years, I have learned that the bass is as much a part of the sound as the "star." Maybe the brand of strings and boutique-brand of bass isn't going to be recognized by the audience, but substitute that with generic strings on a $50 bass and the audience will definitely hear that. More importantly, substitute a player that doesn't care about what the audience hears and it will definitely be noticed.

On a more technical note, to those that prefer to be miked, it might be wise to purchase and bring your own mike AND stand. What I've found over the years is when the bass gets miked, it's with whatever is left over after everything else is set up. All too often, that means your $2000 bass rig is getting miked with a $10.00 Radio Shack mike hung over the cabinet.

RickC

04-24-2007, 09:46 AM

RickC

04-24-2007, 10:33 AM

If you are a bass player that is only playing root notes that follow a guitar player, then yes by all means go DI. However, I don't think that is what the majority of the people on this forum do.

This notion has been hinted at in a few other replies. No way am I saying that this is for just playing roots or "filling out the low frequencies" as someone else suggested; quite the opposite. I want the bass clear and present in the mix, so that complex interactions with the band are preserved. The problem is, it's a balancing act, and there are always compromises involved.

I think that demanding that the sound out of your amp be reproduced exactly in the house can and often does work against the sound of the band as a whole. That's been my experience. We're not talking stage sound, or how it sounds in your practice space, or at your gig at Starbucks. Sound in a big room with full support is a whole different ballgame. It's not as simple as "just make our stage sound louder". Different frequencies do funny thinks at volume and distance, and when the room starts empty and later fills (and vice versa).

It's incredibly easy to overpower the mix with bass, and that makes control all the more critical. I *have* to trust the sound man to balance things properly for a good overall group sound, and I generally find that the more control I give him the better. Again, that's been my experience.

And finally, just a bit of bass philosophy. I always liked the quote "when the bass player is doing his job, everyone else in the band sounds good". Even in high profile, "lead bass" situations, the bass player usually bears the brunt of responsibility for making the overall band sound good, tight, and together. As such, my primary concern is always what works best for the band as a whole.

/rick

jokerjkny

04-24-2007, 10:40 AM

What brand/mfg of Direct boxes are recommended for bass application. My bass player's rig is MM Stingray 5 into a Hartke VX3500 4X10 combo. We are thinking about puting him into the monitor amp/mixer - which will go into the PA.

What is better, playing stand alone, using a D Box, or mic. What brand mic or Dbox would any you guys recommend.

despite the current row going on, hopefully, you'll see this. ;)

a DI box is the simpler way to go. the amp should have a DI XLR out on the back. if not, then you'd have to pickup a nice DI box. you could go w/ a nice tube loaded DI, ala the aguilar db900, or something as simple as a countryman or Radial ProD1 box.

there's a nice DI roundup in the latest issue of bass guitar magazine (NOT bass player. they're two different magazines).

mic'ing a cab works fine, too, and sounds especially great if your bassist is using overdrive. but due to the voicings of particular mics, like an SM57 which might not go low enough (drops around 50hz, whereas a low E string hits 42hz), making your bass not feel as "full frequencied" in the lower end as a DI straight to the house PA. also, you run the risk of slamming the mic too hard causing distortion, which IME, has a lower threshold of gain than a DI.

and as you've read here, there are proponents for either. while, IME, mic'ing vs. DI is more a mere "toolbox" issue.

jokerjkny

04-24-2007, 10:42 AM

(...)

It's incredibly easy to overpower the mix with bass, and that makes control all the more critical. I *have* to trust the sound man to balance things properly for a good overall group sound, and I generally find that the more control I give him the better. Again, that's been my experience.

(...)

+1

couldnt agree more.

jokerjkny

04-24-2007, 11:09 AM

(...)

You're a bass player; you're not the star of the show. Get used to it.

/rick

+1

its this attitude that's gotten me more gigs than vice versa.

kipknee

04-24-2007, 11:39 AM

And finally, just a bit of bass philosophy. I always liked the quote "when the bass player is doing his job, everyone else in the band sounds good". Even in high profile, "lead bass" situations, the bass player usually bears the brunt of responsibility for making the overall band sound good, tight, and together. As such, my primary concern is always what works best for the band as a whole.

+1000

The Golden Boy

04-24-2007, 11:45 AM

Nah, that's not what's being said. What's being said is that you can't exercise micro control of the situation, and that it's better to be nice to the guy to try to get what you want, but in the end, it's out of your control, so relax and play. It's not an especially radical message.

This is a forum where people believe audiences can tell what kind of strings you use--it is that kind of forum, but it's totally wrong. The audience A; can't tell, and B: doesn't care. I spend as much time as anyone fussing about gear, and the truth is, the people that matter the most can't tell the difference between your two brands of pickups, or whether you play boutique bass A or bass B, or use hi-beams or fat beams. That's just the truth. What they can hear and do care about is the emotional content of your playing; they can hear how well the band grooves based on the way you play. So work on that rather than browbeating the sound guy into boosting 200hz by 3 decibels

I say by all means try to get him to use a mic if that's what you want. In my experience, they usually have no problem with it. They usually ask at the set up "how many mics do you need?" If the guy refuses for some reason--and who knows, maybe he has a good reason--carry a stomp box. That's all.
You're right, the audience doesn't care about your strings, and having an entire backline of cabinets is impressive to a few that are interested, but not experienced. The audience doesn't necessarily care about awesome tone, but they'll appreciate good tone, and they'll catch bad tone.

It's not about "micro control," it's about relating your sound to the audience. I have my bass EQed the way it is because that's what's worked best for the band and myself over the course of days/months/years of rehearsals and shows- not over the course of a couple of minutes behind the board. I understand there's going to be tweaks for the room- that's the guy's job. My job is to provide him with a good signal.

What I care about is getting a good tone that fits well within the context of the music that I'm playing and relaying that music as a whole to the audience. What the sound guy should be concerned with is relating the sound of the band to the room.

What "good reason" does the sound guy have for "bullying" a player into using a DI box before the amp? What is carrying a stomp box going to accomplish if you've got your amp with a DI line right there? Why should I get a stomp box or DI or preamp that's either doing what I want the amp to be doing or completely circumventing what I want to be happening (going through the amp)?

I understand there's a give and take- but it's "give some, take some," not "I give, he takes."

dillonfiore

04-24-2007, 12:44 PM

This notion has been hinted at in a few other replies. No way am I saying that this is for just playing roots or "filling out the low frequencies" as someone else suggested; quite the opposite. I want the bass clear and present in the mix, so that complex interactions with the band are preserved. The problem is, it's a balancing act, and there are always compromises involved.

I think that demanding that the sound out of your amp be reproduced exactly in the house can and often does work against the sound of the band as a whole. That's been my experience. We're not talking stage sound, or how it sounds in your practice space, or at your gig at Starbucks. Sound in a big room with full support is a whole different ballgame. It's not as simple as "just make our stage sound louder". Different frequencies do funny thinks at volume and distance, and when the room starts empty and later fills (and vice versa).

It's incredibly easy to overpower the mix with bass, and that makes control all the more critical. I *have* to trust the sound man to balance things properly for a good overall group sound, and I generally find that the more control I give him the better. Again, that's been my experience.

And finally, just a bit of bass philosophy. I always liked the quote "when the bass player is doing his job, everyone else in the band sounds good". Even in high profile, "lead bass" situations, the bass player usually bears the brunt of responsibility for making the overall band sound good, tight, and together. As such, my primary concern is always what works best for the band as a whole.

/rick

If you are dialed in with the other band members, wouldn't it make sense for the sound of your amp to be reproduced? And its been said before, but I don't think some people are quite getting this: The sound guy doesn't know what sound you are going for 90% of the time. Given if you are in a cover band its obvious what you are going for. If you are an original band though how does he know? What if my band wants to sound muddy? We don't, but the sound guy doesn't know that. What if we want the bass out front? It is his job to set the eq for the house once the stage sound is set. I have played fairly large venues where the sound guy has mic'd my amp(and he prefers to do so) and people always compliment the mix. I have also played a larger venue where the sound guy couldn't figure out how to mic my guitarist 2x12 correctly.
Point is, if the sound guy knows what he is doing he can work with a band.

RickC

04-25-2007, 09:06 AM

If you are dialed in with the other band members, wouldn't it make sense for the sound of your amp to be reproduced?

I thought I was quite clear; I'll say it again. Stage sound is not house sound. If you haven't, get a good wireless and try listening to your bass and your band mix from the back of the room. It's an ear opener.

(...)
Point is, if the sound guy knows what he is doing he can work with a band.

Hard to disagree with that, and I wouldn't. Of course you should work with the sound guy, and let him know what you're going for. And I'm not against miking either; as I said in my first post in this thread, my ideal case is when they give me a mike on the amp, and a direct from my preamp. But what I don't do is go in with the assumption that I know the room or the system better than the guy who's running sound. That *may* sometimes be the case, but it's usually not.

/rick

fakeox

04-25-2007, 09:29 AM

It's nice to have enough horsepower to fix the problem yourself if you don't hear yourself coming back from the room.

John Phillips

04-25-2007, 09:43 AM

But what I don't do is go in with the assumption that I know the room or the system better than the guy who's running sound.No, of course not - the thing we're arguing against here is the assumption that the soundman knows the sound the bass player wants better than the person holding the instrument... that's all.

Some (not all, admittedly) go out of their way to make the bass player's choice of sound on stage irrelevant. That to me is wrong.

dillonfiore

04-25-2007, 01:25 PM

No, of course not - the thing we're arguing against here is the assumption that the soundman knows the sound the bass player wants better than the person holding the instrument... that's all.

Some (not all, admittedly) go out of their way to make the bass player's choice of sound on stage irrelevant. That to me is wrong.

Exactly.

Bassomatic

04-25-2007, 05:48 PM

D.I. Always and without any exception I can remember.

BigMikeW

04-30-2007, 01:20 AM

and for those who seem to have been offended by my "you're not the star" statement, that's not a particularly radical message either.
/rick

It's incredibly easy to overpower the mix with bass, and that makes control all the more critical. I *have* to trust the sound man to balance things properly for a good overall group sound, and I generally find that the more control I give him the better. Again, that's been my experience.

And finally, just a bit of bass philosophy. I always liked the quote "when the bass player is doing his job, everyone else in the band sounds good". As such, my primary concern is always what works best for the band as a whole.

/rick

+1000 Much Wisdom Here

RickC

04-30-2007, 10:17 AM

I saw a show this weekend; no names, to protect the innocent. The bass player was smokin, and he had a smokin rig too; Walter Woods and Bergantino. He was a great player, but his tone was overbearing to the point of obnoxiousness; way too loud and punchy for the music, imo. I'm sure he thought he had a rippin tone, onstage. It was a small club, and I think a lot of what I was hearing was stage sound, so the sound engineer's hands were somewhat tied.

/rick

waxnsteel

05-05-2007, 12:53 PM

When I'm the sound guy, my goal is to make the band sound just like they do, only louder. For bass, I want a direct signal from the amp, not from the bass, unless the guy's sound IS bass into a DI into the board. I'll take a Sansamp any day, too.

mattvon

05-09-2007, 07:27 AM

LOL...I'm the bass player Tedzepplin mentioned in the first post of this thread. Great to see everyone's responses.

I agree with much of what's been said, on both sides of the issue. I don't for a second assume I have the right to dictate terms to sound guys. For the record--I have (and will use) a SansAmp PBDDI, should the need arise.

In my past experience, I HAVE usually ended up going direct, and thought it was like unflavored oatmeal--filling, nutritious, bland, and somewhat unsatisfying. Nothing exactly wrong with it, but not a whole lot right with it, either.

Since picking up some higher-end gear, I've come to appreciate the tone I get from my rig (typically Reverend Rumblefish->1970 SVT->Bergantino NV610) much more than in my younger days, when I was mostly concerned with appearance and volume.

All that being said, I feel it's a bit unfair to reduce the bass player to a "generic low-frequency tone generator"...I don't have any "Flea-Jaco-Billy Sheehan" aspirations--I'm much more of a pocket player--but I don't feel I should have my tone neutered by sound men for no other reason than "it's easier."

As for whether the crowd is impressed by "my" specific tone--I'm not all that concerned. I mostly would like to have the whole band sound tight and focused, with my sound representative of what I sound like--at rehersal, on recordings, and playing live. I don't feel that's too much to ask.

When all is said and done, much of the reason I play music is because I like how it sounds when I play it. I'm guessing most of you feel the same way.

dillonfiore

05-09-2007, 05:34 PM

I agree 110%. Your tone is what makes you. Yes the audience wont walk away sying the bass player had great tone. They also wont walk away saying the guitarist had great tone. You try to get great tone so that people (and yourself) will like the sound of your band. Its not important that they know why they like it, just that they do like it. They won't remember that the klon sounded really good on the chours of the last song, but they will remember that they liked the chourus of the last song. I guess the point is, as a bass player I don't want my tone watered down by a sound guy that is used to hearing people play through cheap amps.

JohnSS

05-09-2007, 07:32 PM

I usually have used a DI with a feed to a stage amp with pretty good results. Most soundmen are professionals and will reciprocate if treated with respect. I presently use an Ampeg BA115 that has a built in DI out, which makes it easier for me to get my sound, since the DI is after the preamp.

If you can't afford a SansAmp, the Behringers are quite good. They're relatively transparent and built like tanks.

tedzepplin

06-23-2007, 06:31 PM

Check this out:
http://www.thegearpage.net/board/showthread.php?t=261609

Like I expected, guitar players won't put up with one second of DI nonsense from a sound person.

jazzercountry

06-24-2007, 05:09 PM

Well, I guess we can see how my perspective fits in with everybody elses.

I've always been of the opinion that it's my job as a professional to make sure that I'm able to get good clean signal to the soundman so that he can do his job. My sound is a clean one (Aguilar DB680), so I just ask the engineer if they prefer pre or post EQ from me, or if they'd rather I DI in front of my rig. They know what they prefer to work with, and that leads to smooth sailing on both ends. However, if my gigs called for a dirty tone, I feel like it would be my responsibility to get that tone to the board in an efficient manner. In my opinion some sort of POD or better yet a SansAmp would be the quickest/easiest/most consistent way to do this, as Mic'ing bass is not always something engineers have the desire (or time, or channels) to do. Again, my opinion, but I think that courtesy and professionalism/preparedness are half of what keeps my phone ringing. Worst case scenario: it ends up not sounding the way I would've liked - still not the end of the world. Chalk it up to a bad soundman or a troublesome room (giant concrete convention center with the stage in the corner and 75 foot ceilings - I still have nightmares about the sound at that gig...ugh). Generally speaking, throwing a tantrum is not going to do anything to improve your sound. (Trust me they get enough of this from the star and the guitarist..heh)

Anyhow, this is my perspective as a professional sideman, take it for what it's worth (which is slightly less than nothing at all...hah).

poorboy

12-27-2007, 06:14 PM

But that's how it is. The sound guy controls EVERYONES sound in the front of the house. There is no changing that, barring you playing bass from behind the board.

I can understand everyone's wanting to get their sound from their amp to the people in the crowd, but it's kind of unrealistic and generally speaking implausable if not impossible.

I let go of this a long time ago. I have found some soundmen do a great job, some not so much. Those are the breaks. You want the sound guy to work on your tone? Buy him a beer and have a chat, don't yell at him.

And I said a bass -> DI -> PA sounds fine. And I think it does - IMO and YMMV. Notice I didn't say amazing or breathtaking, but fine. Even in what I thought was my personal worst live mix ever, I have never heard anyone complain about my bass tone. Not once, and I have played a lot of shows. I have also heard myself sound excellent out in the front. In some cases I have gotten some complients. But never any complaints. Which means it sounds fine.
I'm with ya brother.
The sound guy can do what ever he wants, XLR out the back,DI,Mic, I don't care.
Unless I'm out front I can only trust the sound guy. Beside ,I"m useally busy during the job.

eyeteeth

12-28-2007, 07:53 AM

I love this never ending debate... it comes up on every bass forum I know, and never really ever seems "resolved".

Personal taste I guess.

I run a studio on the side... and one thing I think we need to take into consideration here, is they "typical" forum member here is much more conscientious of their equipment and sound than the "average" player. The average player I have in my studio falls more into the "You're not the star, get over it" category in that they're playing a cheap bass through a worse combo that does more to harm the bass tone than anything. For them they're just trying to be heard. (Oddly enough... sometimes getting their sound more defined via DI brings out some "talent" issues and you have to begrudgingly go back to the mud)

It seems too many players around here just have crappy gear, and a DI would probably give them better tone then trying to Mic their poor little overworked combo, so the soundguys get used to trying to compensate.

Personally however, I didn't spend big $$$ on my amp, cab, and efx to have them removed from the equation for creating "my sound". The sound of the tubes in my head, the speaker, all play apart in the way I want to sound, and... how I play. If I'm hearing something I don't like, I'll adapt to correct. The problem is if I'm DI'd the house is getting something I"m not hearing, and I may adapt in the wrong direction. A soundguy wouldn't think of running a guitar player direct why do they often pressure the bass player?

It irked me to the point of traveling with a D112 and a stand. I will fight to mic my rig, but I can see how DI can be beneficial in some circumstances.

2 Loud 4 You

01-20-2008, 07:29 AM

John Phillips

01-20-2008, 12:43 PM

Another thing people aren't considering when it comes to DI'ing the bass instead of DI from the head or micing the cab. What about those of us who use effects? Unless the soundman is willing to DI from your pedalboard he's much better off getting the signal from the amp or cab.Since I use a pedalboard - which I have a nice lo-fi transformer-balanced DI box on, in case the house box is something really crap - there is no way I'll ever have my bass DI'd. That way, at least if the soundman absolutely will not compromise and DI the amp (post EQ), I can set the amp fairly flat, dial the tone with the pedals, and still have most of my sound.

2 Loud 4 You

01-20-2008, 06:01 PM

Since I use a pedalboard - which I have a nice lo-fi transformer-balanced DI box on, in case the house box is something really crap - there is no way I'll ever have my bass DI'd. That way, at least if the soundman absolutely will not compromise and DI the amp (post EQ), I can set the amp fairly flat, dial the tone with the pedals, and still have most of my sound.

Not a bad idea considering some of the direct boxes I've seen at clubs. Your way also comes in handy for those gigs where the equipment is supplied and you ahve to make due with what's supplied. I remember when a former band got to open the Lollapalooza stop in ATL and I had to play through a tube Ampeg into an 8/10. While some guys may think that's great, I hated it. I don't like tube bass amps and just COULD NOT get my sound from it.

Alpha Audio Works

01-22-2008, 02:51 PM

DI baby! No engineers crying because you want a mic. No knocking the mic into your cabinet while performing....which always adds a "nice" BOOM to your lines. No hollow stage resonating through the mic stand. Give me ANY DI over a mic for live application.

stratman34

01-25-2008, 08:57 AM

I can go either way on this one, depending mostly on the venue. I am a tone nut so mics are preferred, but I also play at church in a 120' x 80' REVERB BOX. It is impossible there to run an amp at volume to get good tone without blowing out the monitors and drowning the singers. I DI out of my bass amp, and use the amp as my monitor. I tried DI directly without the amp, and it was totally lifeless. I use EMGs due to cut on noise (don't want any hum at church), and they just don't seem to do well through a DI box.

Also, cut the soundguys some slack, they have way more to deal with than just your precious tone. I run sound often, and it's like herding cats.

Funky Chicken

02-01-2008, 07:23 AM

I have used the XLR out on my ancient SWR head for YEARS. Between the bass(es) I was using and the preamp section of the amp my tone was there when it hit the board. I also give the soundman a hot enough signal to work with without boosting gain at the board-that way he is touching EQ as little as possible. I always politely ask for the eq to be set to flat as a starting point-most of the time they pull the fader up and we are there.

You also have to keep in mind the "throw" of different bass cabs. An SVT is going to throw farther and lower than a Goliath Jr.-a good soundman will take what is coming off the stage into account when he pulls you up in the mix.

In the end it's much easier to translate bass tone thru a PA than to be a guitarist using time-based effects and trying to get those sounds to the back of the room in one piece.

Jimi1976

08-04-2008, 08:35 AM

If I have the option, both DI and mic.

The trick, however is to time align the mic signal with the DI signal.

Any COMPETENT foh audio engineer will understand the importance of this.

Kevin Freeby

08-05-2008, 09:14 AM

+1 for both!

powermatt99

08-18-2008, 02:45 PM

As a church audio engineer, I'd rather use a mic if the bassist really has his sound dialed in. Otherwise, I have a SansAmp Bass Driver DI that gets frequent use for bassists who just don't care or who have inferior equipment.

When I play bass, I'd rather use a DI because I have very little faith in the other sound tech to get my sound with a mic. Thankfully, I don't have to play bass more than a few times a year in church.

Bassomatic

08-19-2008, 09:05 AM

teleharmonium

08-19-2008, 11:17 AM

when I'm playing electric, probably 2/3 of the time the bass isn't going through the PA anyway so this is a non issue. When I am going through the PA, I try to get myself miked, and I usually have a mic and cable with me. I can live with being both direct and miked, but I hate being direct only, and I haven't had to do that in a long time.

For upright, my amp is squeaky clean, so there wouldn't be much to gain from miking it in terms of signal coloration. Also I use both a mic and a piezo on my bass, so it's got some microphone character. If I know I'll be playing through a PA with decent monitoring, I don't even bring the amp, just my preamp and some pedals (tuner and Diamond compressor, and maybe kicking in modulation delay occasionally when I'm playing with the bow).

bemymonkey

08-22-2008, 01:12 AM

If I have the option, both DI and mic.

Exactly - I'm not a very good bassist, but I do a lot of live sound engineering, and I will flat out REFUSE to run a mic'd bass amp through the PA on its own. I'm sorry to say this, but a lot of bassists don't know how their sound sits in the mix, and when they run fuzzes and distortions, the bottom end disappears completely because there's not enough dry (clean!) signal in the mix.

That's why, if a bassist wants to have their amp mic'd, they get an SM57 (which is fine for the distortion sounds - a good bass drum mic is overkill for fuzzy sounds anyway) and a DI... the mixing of levels is performed at the sound desk. The DI signal is the basic staple, to provide a solid basis for the band's sound, and the distorted or fuzzed sound is just layered over the top.

Et voila... punchy, fuzzy, in-your-face gritty fuzz bass sound that doesn't fart out and doesn't get lost in the guitar mix.

Tip for the guys running bass modellers (Sansamp Bass Driver or stuff like that) - run the dry signal at AT LEAST 1/2 (so 50% dry, 50% wet) if you're using very distorted or very fuzzy bass sounds. Otherwise sound engineers will have a hard time getting you heard properly...

Wolv54

08-22-2008, 11:23 AM

I'm with you, the bass never goes direct to the board. The only reason the soundman even has a preference is because of how easy it is to DI versus mic'n a bass cab effectively.

theroan

08-22-2008, 01:09 PM

Hopefully both, if not DI

bemymonkey

08-23-2008, 02:39 AM

I'm with you, the bass never goes direct to the board. The only reason the soundman even has a preference is because of how easy it is to DI versus mic'n a bass cab effectively.

True - I have trouble getting enough low end with a mic'd cab (no matter what mic I use), which is why I need a DI to support the mic...

shakerAU

08-23-2008, 07:22 AM

i Agree Completely With John Phillips.

Being An Attorney I Have Learned That With Sound Guys You Have To Be Conforntational Right From The Start, Behaving Like A Bully, Even If That Is Not Your Nature. Sound Guys Are Usually Stubborn, Unfriendly, Narrow Minded And Unwilling To Comply With A Musician's Reasonable Petition. Do Not Expect To Obtain Good Results From Them By Being Meek.

+1000

Kitsapbass

08-30-2008, 02:55 AM

Both...If I have to pick one, I pull out my Sansamp BDDI, get a good SVT-ish sound and go from there....

Bo Faulkner

09-02-2008, 05:35 PM

I have played big stuff where they used 3 channels on the bass.. on for mic one for amp di and one for bass di

Slough Feg Bass

10-09-2008, 01:25 PM

My preference is to have the 3 channels as well, but that is once in a great while and only at large shows where there are dedicated stage hands to help get it all together.

However, one thing i have learned, to get the sound I want, I put an MXR M-80 in my effects loop, then took the DI out from that to the FOH.

That way, I can get the sound of my bass preamp, then I can switch the dirt on and off with the MXR M-80, which, IMHO, sounds better than the Sansamp. I think the Sansamp muddy's the lower frequencies a bit, while the MXR Makes them SHINE!

That way I also know that I can retain some control of my EQ, but then again, if the sound guy tells me my signal is too hot, then I have to bring down the preamp volume and crank the master volume, which can be a problem during the quick line check gigs.

Quickest and easiest way to get a decent FOH sound?
get a nice preamp with a DI that has the pre/post switch on it. Leave it on post until they ask to bump it to pre. 9/10 times they will not ask unless you have some insane amount of 40 hz bumped in your settings.

again, the folks who were saying the DI sounds dry and sterile are probably not using a hi-end DI box like the Demeter or GT Brick.

Oh well... my $.02

zydeco papa

10-20-2008, 12:33 PM

I played a gig at a Hard Rock Cafe over the weekend. It was: Stagg Jag w/ Audere - IMP2 - Ampeg B15N - Sennheiser MD421

The sound man had no qualms about micing up that amp. The IMP2 is a cheap DI, but I don't think anyone has ever accused it of sounding cold. The cheap transformer saturates easily and luckily sounds pretty good for rock bass. I generally like to use my Radial J48, but this worked really well (probably better than the J48 would have).

I set the amp up as side fill so the engineer didn't have to deal with what was coming off the amp and all of its on axis output was utilized for stage volume. The PA was plenty for the room - two Yorkville TX8 over two double 18 subs per side in a mid-size club setting.

Everybody dug it, onstage and out front.

I don't think 3 channels for bass are necessary. I've mixed FOH enough and played enough shows to learn that keeping 3 sources in phase is more of a pain than it's worth. If I can't get a good sound with a mic and DI then something upstream needs attention. edit: Most likely only one of those diect signals are being used at once, though, so it does make sense to take 3 lines if the real estate is available @ FOH just to offer the engineer the choice between pre- and post preamp.

burner

11-15-2008, 04:29 PM

• Don't piss off a sound man by telling them how to do their job, not a good idea. You will sound worse for it.
If they were doing their job, you wouldn't have to say anything to them.
And then to take a vindictive attitude and clamp our sound because they can't do it "their way"? Sorry, that sh!t won't fly.:nono

Belmont

11-19-2008, 12:40 AM

pros don't tell the soundman how to do his job,hacks and their girlfriend/wives do though.

dancehall

11-21-2008, 12:26 AM

Yeah I generally go with whatever the soundman wants. If I have a choice I have him use the SABDDI on my pedalboard so I can mess with my amp volume without changing the FOH sound.

aluminumbeardo

01-09-2009, 01:17 AM

I've almost got into fist fights over this exact thing. I don't spend retarded amounts of money on amps just to have you bypass the whole thing. The only time this has really been an issue though is when the sound man is a complete douche with a bunch of crap equipment.

lambro

01-09-2009, 05:23 PM

it's nice to mic and di and blend to taste

good to have your own mic that you know captures your sound well

also good to talk to the sound guy to let them know what sound you are after, that way they have a goal

bigethyl

01-10-2009, 11:24 AM

bring your own soundperson to the gig
let him/her work the board with the house soundperson

Thor

01-11-2009, 09:16 PM

bring your own soundperson to the gig
let him/her work the board with the house soundperson

That is a great idea, and I have found that, when handled well, most house sound guys are OK with this. That way you have someone at the board who knows what sort of sound/mix the band is shooting for. Obvoiously you have to choose this person carefully as "playing well with others" is just as important as a good ear for this position.

-Edward

Katri

01-20-2009, 10:46 AM

i dont think ive ever played a gig with a mic'c cab, i have always played with a DI from either my amp or Sansamp.

DanGouge

01-20-2009, 11:58 AM

I'd like to mic my cab, but it's just easiest to send DI from my amp. I keep a Whirlwind passive DI with me all the time as an idiot-proof back-up if something happens to the amp.

rikvee

06-01-2009, 07:58 AM

Here we go for a bit of thread revival, I like this subject.... : )

This whole forum is full of opinions WITHOUT qualifying what
the context is, for instance:

1. what sort of music is it?
2. what kind of venue is it played in?
3. what's the amplifier being used?
4. do effects play a big part?
5. how much time is there to try things out?

etc, etc, etc....

In the 'debate' on miking or DI-ing bass guitar at live shows,
unnecessary tension is created by suggesting it should be one
or the other, DI or Mic.
The other factor is soundpeople who 'tell' muso's what to do
and muso's 'telling' soundmen where to stick it.....

In my world, where I am a soundman, I try do do a
complimentary job, something that fits the music being
played, and we work together!
If there is time, I listen to different DI's, different places to
put the Di's, pre or post amp XLR outs, different mics as well
as different mic positions.
Usually I end up with both a line and a mic, the blend of
which can depend on the song being played....

However, in most places, even arenas, the biggest difference
to how the bass sounds out the front, is made by the sound
coming off the stage! (rendering the entire debate above a mute point...)
Nothing travels further, and nothing will sound as uneven as
low frequencies at various distances....

Any bass player who does not walk the entire audience area
(with either a long lead or a wireless) during a soundcheck,
while carefully making sure his/her sound spilling off the
stage also sounds appropriate everywhere else, IMHO does not
really understand that every room will potentially sound
radically different, or worse, by not bothering with this,
prove they actually do not really care how the audience hears them.....

Brian Krashpad

06-05-2009, 12:20 PM

Onboard DI in amp head.

But a number of clubs we play are so small that that neither mic'ing nor DI is needed. PA in those sitches is reserved for vox and maybe a kick drum.

Wobegon

06-05-2009, 06:42 PM

Something many people in this thread are not considering. Bass waves, because of their longer wavelength, are not apparent to the listener standing right next to the cab. In fact, especially with larger speaker cones, the setup of the bass waves may not be at full strength until they are completely off the stage and well into the crowd. Having a high volume bass amp on stage can cause a lot of problems with balancing frequencies in the house. Many bassists even do not appreciate the fact the DI'ing not only allows soundmen to control the sound in the house more effectively, but it allows bass players to create the sound they want to hear onstage, while not mucking up frequency and channel balance in the mains.

Long story short, if you are a live player, you should be focusing your efforts on creating the direct out sound you want. There are many pieces of gear you can use available, from SansAmp to tube preamps by Ampeg, Aguilar and Demeter (to name a few), to many high quality pedals and pieces of rack gear. Focus your energy on creating the best direct sound you can, not the best amp sound, then the sound you spent all your energy on will not be lost when you play live. Rethink where you are putting your effort.

EDIT: Somewhat beaten two posts above, but hey...

walterw

06-07-2009, 08:57 PM

Something many people in this thread are not considering. Bass waves, because of their longer wavelength, are not apparent to the listener standing right next to the cab.
sorry, but that's an oft-repeated myth. bass waves do not "develop" anywhere. they certainly resonate with room modes and cancel from multiple sources (which is where most of the low end issues in clubs come from), but a 30Hz wave will "develop" just fine in the centimeter or two of your ear canal from in-ear headphones.

low end certainly carries farther than high end, so from a distance, a sound source will seem to have more bass than from close up, but that's treble loss, not bass gain.

Long story short, if you are a live player, you should be focusing your efforts on creating the direct out sound you want...Focus your energy on creating the best direct sound you can, not the best amp sound, then the sound you spent all your energy on will not be lost when you play live. Rethink where you are putting your effort.

now that certainly makes sense. plus, it becomes easier to use house amps (or no amps if the PA monitor situation is sufficient), and be confident that a good tone will still make it to the audience.

bobbyrozlo

06-07-2009, 09:27 PM

DI blows. When I was playing real shows (y'know-for money not beer;) I just brought a truckload of cabs and amps and flat out refused to DI. In six(-ish) years of that I went into PA twice: once for a big outdoor thingie, and once because we were recording and the engineer was worried my power would overtake the guitars in the recording. Both times I gave the sound crew a line level signal from my four channel mixer: a pleasing blend of 1)raw, 2) eq only, 3) overdriven tube, and 4)low-cut sparkle. Be as rude or whatever. Don't forget you're (at least kinda) the reason they're working that night and (at least kinda) paying them to reproduce your sound for the audience. Doesn't matter anyway because if BOSE gets their way nobody will use PA much longer...........

Waxhead

06-08-2009, 04:57 AM

Mic'd bass is very hard to do live. Most don't have the right mics for it. An SM57 will not cut it and the AKG D12s are in the kick drums. Nobody carries 3 or 4 of those.

So buy yourself a Sennheiser e902 and take it to your gigs. Great bass mic - problem solved :AOK

Wobegon

06-11-2009, 06:13 PM

low end certainly carries farther than high end, so from a distance, a sound source will seem to have more bass than from close up, but that's treble loss, not bass gain.

This very well could be, I'm not a physicist, but I can tell you that even just 20 feet in front of the stage sounds very, very different w/r/t bass balance, making the point the same whether the effect comes from the peculiarities of bass waves or the quicker treble loss. What creates the effect is kind of moot, since the point is that the effect is there. I'll have to research that though, thanks for pointing it out.

walterw

06-11-2009, 06:42 PM

This very well could be, I'm not a physicist, but I can tell you that even just 20 feet in front of the stage sounds very, very different w/r/t bass balance, making the point the same whether the effect comes from the peculiarities of bass waves or the quicker treble loss. What creates the effect is kind of moot, since the point is that the effect is there. I'll have to research that though, thanks for pointing it out.
i've got only a tenuous grasp of it myself, but some studying over on PSW (http://srforums.prosoundweb.com/) has been very informative.

blueline

06-16-2009, 12:51 PM

I have experience with both, I play, record and am sometimes caught doing live sound (I don't really like too, but sometimes offers are too good to refuse) Anyway, I hate regular DIs, however, they offer a sound engineer some added control that may help the overall mix through the PA speakers blend together to make an overall good sound. I use an Avalon U5 as a DI for my bass, live and in the studio, when another bassist is up for it, I try to convince them to try it and have had nothing but pleasant success when they have tried it. Other times I will try to take the bass pre DI out as it can still capture the tone of the musician and allow a sound engineer control as well. However, we as musicians often set our rigs up to sound good with our instrument the priority to us. This is not always the best choice for a mix and can often cause problems. Bass is an interesting instrument to capture with microphones, especially live. Thus, DIs or instrument pres offer the potential of a better bass sound in the overall mix through the PA in many situations.

svtb15

06-16-2009, 02:59 PM

If i DI i use my REDDI tube DI... I prefer a mic but the REDDI just slams all the time

Jim S

06-16-2009, 03:41 PM

DI if needed; no mic

SGD Lutherie

06-17-2009, 09:18 AM

I only go DI, usually from the head so I get my effects in the mix, but if not from the end of my cable before the amp. My amp sounds like a PA anyway, so I'm not interested in injecting an amp's tone to the bass. Yes, that means I'm not a big fan of Ampeg amps. If I want a little grit I use a BK Butler BlueTube.

In regards to sound men. I've been playing live on big stages since I was 16, and I'm 51 now. I have rarely ran into a sound man that had a clue about what they were doing. They spend a long time getting a "good" drum mix, and then want to shoehorn the bass into that. You generally can't hear the bass anyway. They don't like you to play to loud on stage because then they lose the ability to bury the bass behind the drums!

The best front of house sound I have gotten was either when we brought our own sound man, or in very large professional venues.

I used to play in a club all the time and one night I was hanging out by the sound booth, and the band on stage was setting up, and the bass player was using a burpy Jaco type of tone. The sound man said "I hate that type of tone" and proceeded to turn it into a deep blur, and you couldn't hear the players tone out in the front of the house!

Wobegon

07-02-2009, 03:56 AM

I have rarely ran into a sound man that had a clue about what they were doing.

Everyone is crazy I'm the sane one. Perhaps some of them do know what they're doing, and what they're doing is mixing a band for the house and not for your amusement and ego. Maybe.

nad

07-14-2009, 01:09 PM

As long as I'm loud enough to be heard by the audience, I honestly don't care. I prefer a mic'd cab of course, but I think my bass sounds fine enough on its own so a DI doesn't really bother me.

skippytheboatman

02-16-2012, 01:10 PM

There seems to be some polarization of opinion here.. I think it depends on a lot of things. The acoustics have a major impact on how you get your sound accross and it depends on what your sound is. I think there are two camps, those who want a full range, HI-FI sound and those who approach the problem more like a guitarist. I have used both a methods both live and in the studio. i used to be in a very bottom heavy band where i sent the low pass signal from my crossover (SWR Studio 220) to the FOH so that the engineer couldn't add any mids or top. I used the system processor from a RAMSA PA system to control the ridiculous amount of bottom end (4 string tuned BEAD) and this went before my DI as did the enhancer and EQ in my pre amp. I had engineers dive for their fader many times at sound check but they soon got the idea mostly and I never made enemies of them. I needed them onside so often bought them a drink. After a difficult recording session trying to balance this kind of sound the engineer miced up an 8x10 SVT and this sounded huge but gave much less real bottom and was therefore relatively easy to mix and didn't stress the small nearfields. I had great reviews for the CD and for the live gigs most of which mentioned the bass first of all. I now need a more 'normal' full range sound and use a Martin sub without the crossover as my bass cab and a small valve guitar amp which I send the highs to. I intend to mic this and blend it with a DI from after my valve/ opto comp and aphex big bottom. Hopefully this will give me the best of both worlds and get round many of the problems of micing low frequencies on stage and should help keep my stage bottom end on stage where it belongs. I will take my own mic, a beyer m201 as i cant see how anyone can be serious about having their rig miced and not see particular:munch a Mic as part of their investment.

excane

02-16-2012, 06:51 PM

I ALWAYS use a combination of both. Seems to get me the best of both worlds. I send the DI from the back of my amp and I usually bring an AKG D112 to mic one of my Mesa cabs with.

rokpunk

02-16-2012, 07:41 PM

both, of course.
why would you do anything less?

9fingers

02-17-2012, 02:47 PM

I agree completely with John Phillips.

Being an attorney I have learned that with sound guys you have to be conforntational right from the start, behaving like a bully, even if that is not your nature. Sound guys are usually stubborn, unfriendly, narrow minded and unwilling to comply with a musician's reasonable petition. Do not expect to obtain good results from them by being meek.

I have to heartily disagree (if you are being seroius). That is some advice to practically guarantee a pretty miserable gig. I work as part of a team & show respect for the sound folks and almost always get treated well with consideration for my needs as a musician.
I would be "stubborn, unfriendly, narrow minded, and unwilling to comply" too if I was bullied from the get go. These are human beings doing a job that (for the most part) they really like.

rokpunk

02-19-2012, 01:19 AM

I have to heartily disagree (if you are being seroius). That is some advice to practically guarantee a pretty miserable gig. I work as part of a team & show respect for the sound folks and almost always get treated well with consideration for my needs as a musician.
I would be "stubborn, unfriendly, narrow minded, and unwilling to comply" too if I was bullied from the get go. These are human beings doing a job that (for the most part) they really like.

i assume the lawyer who made the statement was kidding, but if he wasn't, i'd sure love to mix a show of his! you know how bad you can make a vocal mic sound just by putting less than a half second of delay of his vocal mic in his monitor? talk about having a bad night. and chances are he's have no clue why he was so off all night. be nice to your soundman. signed, a soundman.