Silverface vs Blackface Deluxe - What's the tone difference?

[tele_jas]

If I had a Blackface Deluxe sitting next to my Silverface Deluxe, what differences would I hear??

Is it possible to mod a SF to a BF I a man were to want to do so?

[Dollar]

Yes you can convert silverface amps to blackface circuits. I just last week did so to a 69 pro reverb taking it from the AA1069 circuit to the AA165 circuit.. I didn't get to A/B the differences per se because it was about 3 days before I completed the conversion but the differences were not as great to my ear as I had thought they would be. This particular amp is a drip edge silverface and the tube chart was for an AA165 even though the circuit was "almost" entirely AA1069. That leads me to guess that this amp was a very early model AA1069. I think that as the years went by the differences became greater but that's just an educated guess on my part as I don't have the experience with enough silverface amps to say. Suffice it to say that this particular amp sounded very good before the changes and probably even slightly better after the conversion.

I think that there can be greater tonal differences between 2 amps of the same model year than there were between this amp pre and post conversion.

[Blue Strat]

Right, the tonal differences between 2 properly functioning DRs, one a SF and one a BF, are relatively minimal compared to other Fender SF and BF models.

You might get slightly earlier breakup with the BF model (or conversion).

[electroid]

Yep. The SF ones seem to have slightly more clean headroom.

[davess23]

That's my experience, too. My 72 stays clean a tad longer than a blackface. Other than that, no noticeable difference, given the same speakers. My amp tech told me that it would be easy to blackface the amp, but he couldn't understand why I'd want to bother.

[strumminsix]

Here is my experience: SF has a smidge more headroom and a smidge less on the highest pitched notes. But I kinda like that since it never sounds ice-picky.

From a tech perspective a more significant thing they did was use different wiring cables and routed them differently often causing parasitic oscillation which is barely audible but present in the highest tonal registers so they threw some filter caps of sorts across the feed into the powertube which shelves off the highest of highs which eliminates some high notes but also the parasitic oscillation.

[waxnsteel]

I've heard quite a few times that Deluxes and smaller amps like champs and Princetons didn't get circuit makeovers, so a Silverface Deluxe should sound pretty much the same as a Blackface Deluxe. Supers, Bassmen, Twins and the like are the ones that got re-done to maximize clean headroom and hi-fi qualities.

[cameron]

It's generally simple to "blackface" a silverface Fender. There will still be some differences, due to cabinet manufacture, etc. But minor differences.

Many of the smaller amps (Princeton, Vibro Champ, etc.) never really got the output section changes associated with the siverface era. Those will just need routine maintenance, no real modifications.

The exceptions are the "ultralinear" amps. Those appeared in the later 70s, and only on some of the larger amp models. I know there were ultralinear Bassmans, and Twin Reverbs. Perhaps some other amps as well. Those designs aren't bad - they were intended to boost output power and increase clean headroom, and they did. But the nature of the changes to the output section make it non-trivial to revert them to blackface specs.

[electroid]

I've heard quite a few times that Deluxes and smaller amps like champs and Princetons didn't get circuit makeovers, so a Silverface Deluxe should sound pretty much the same as a Blackface Deluxe. Supers, Bassmen, Twins and the like are the ones that got re-done to maximize clean headroom and hi-fi qualities.

That's not true of Deluxe Reverbs. They did get changes. The difference is that they did not get bias balance changes and the short lived cathode resistor mod that the bigger amps got. Otherwise, they were changed about as much as the bigger amps.

[DejavuDave]

Great topic. :) Very timely for me, too. I'm looking for something loud and clean, and I'm leaning toward a Fender Twin or Showman. I started thinking vintage 60's BF but now possibly early, non-MV SF since everybody seems to agree that they provide somewhat more headroom than the BF's. But I hope to try both. Keep the comments coming...

[KennyM]

I've had both and as already mentioned, not huge differences. I personally think the transformers in the SF are consistently better. One of SF I had converted to BF specs was my favorite of all.

[Fender66]

If I may throw in another part to this question.

Is there a noticable difference between the ReIssue DR to either the SF or original BF?

Peace,

[Old Tele man]

..."silverface" = the 'TIN MAN' in the Wizard of Oz.

..."blackface" = Al Jolson in Burlesque.

[TimH]

Great topic. :) Very timely for me, too. I'm looking for something loud and clean, and I'm leaning toward a Fender Twin or Showman. I started thinking vintage 60's BF but now possibly early, non-MV SF since everybody seems to agree that they provide somewhat more headroom than the BF's. But I hope to try both. Keep the comments coming...

I doubt very much on a Twin or Showman it's going to matter at all. Clean headroom is what these amps were made for and a BF will still be super loud before it breaks up.

[mcgriff420]

so where does that leave my 71 princeton reverb? Silver circuit or blackface? I'm thinking of putting it up for sale -is the chart with the circuit type not going to accurately reflect the real circuit?? How would I know for sure?

[waxnsteel]

That's not true of Deluxe Reverbs. They did get changes. The difference is that they did not get bias balance changes and the short lived cathode resistor mod that the bigger amps got. Otherwise, they were changed about as much as the bigger amps.

So it's true for Deluxes, but not Deluxe Reverbs?

[aeolian]

To me the big difference is the coupling cap between the preamp and PI. the early ones passed more low frequencies making them muddier. I can't remember the values off the top of my head but one of KF's suggestions was to use a value in the middle, which is exactly what I did when I blackfaced my DR. Tried both stock values to be sure and that middle value just sings clear. Guess KF knew what he was talking about.

[slider313]

I have had both and still own an original '65. I have also A/B'd early silverfaces '68-'69, with blackfaces. I hear a tighter, yet not as smooth, bass response and a solid state-ish top end from the silverfaces. The blackface amps seem to breathe compared to the silverfaces, even when crossing over speakers to the others cabinet.