Why do 4th chords sound IN when playing OUT?

[tonefingers]

All twelves notes are always in play

When playing say a G min/C7 vamp
I can play the min7sus chord anywhere
and my ear accepts it at least as a
tension moving to resolution.
I find this 'out of the key'
note acceptance grounded on the melody note
very interesting.
Playing 'out' in 4ths help me hear the 'out' better.
It's like the stack of 4ths are all consonant
It seems to work a little like a safety net.

How might you transfer this thinking to single note playing?

[Bryan T]

I find this 'out of the key'
note acceptance grounded on the melody note
very interesting.

What do you mean by "grounded on the melody note?" What melody note?

Playing 'out' in 4ths help me hear the 'out' better.
It's like the stack of 4ths are all consonant
It seems to work a little like a safety net.

I think I know what you mean, though most of my quartal playing is more than stacking perfect fourths - a lot of it ends up hinting more strongly at a key.

How might you transfer this thinking to single note playing?

Play melodies based off of stacking fourths. Use octave displacement. Pay attention to where the ear is being "pulled."

Bryan

[Lucidology]

Ah.. shhhh (index finger on lips),
that one of the secrets of hip fusion comping...

Stacked fourths create an ambiguity that stands completely on it's own ...

Miles Davis calls it leaving out the "butter notes"........

[tonefingers]

What do you mean by "grounded on the melody note?" What melody note?



I think I know what you mean, though most of my quartal playing is more than stacking perfect fourths - a lot of it ends up hinting more strongly at a key.



Play melodies based off of stacking fourths. Use octave displacement. Pay attention to where the ear is being "pulled."

Bryan
I'm thinking of playing say a G min pent
over the Gmin7/C7 progression
Maybe the Dorian as well.
But we don't need to be restricted by scales do we?
So when we step out side of these prescribed scales
we enter a world of tension, every note bitter enemies
to resolution, or maybe not.

Bill Frisell is a master of wrong against right
He's a master of quartal harmony
He can make any note work in his melody
and that note would be the top of a stack of 4ths.
As he holds that note the lower stackmight decend
by half step.
It can add profound depth to the Gm7/C7 vamp
And never sounds wrong.

Anyway, it's a powerful tool and I want to understand
beyond what I already got.

I do all this in my playing already, learned from the streets.
Been teaching how to do it to the younger generation for years.
Keep em out of trouble and all.

But I can't explain the 'why?' of it. How the harmonies
interact when playing 'out' yet sound in
I mean you can pretty much hang on an out min sus chord

[tonefingers]

Here's a line using all notes


|---------------------------------------------------------|---|
|---12--12--12--11--10--10--10--9--8--8--8--7--6--6--6--5-|-3-|
|---11--10---9---9---9---8---7---7--7--6--5--5--5--4--3--3-|-2-|
|---11--10---9---9---9---8---7---7--7--6--5--5--5--4--3--3-|-2-|
|---------------------------------------------------------|---|
|---------------------------------------------------------|---|

play that over Gm7/C7/F

[Austinrocks]

Pretty cool, thanks tonefingers.

[KRosser]

Bill Frisell is a master of wrong against right
He's a master of quartal harmony


Bill is a giant for sure, one of my favorite guitarists, ever, so - much respect...

But, that said - most of his quartal stuff sounds to me to come directly from Jim Hall, who should probably have the props on that one. Check out the solo guitar version of "I Should Care" from "Where Would I Be" for a doctoral thesis on this exact phenomenon you're referring to (and, he does that - harmonizing melody notes with parallel clusters/stacks - with more than just 4ths)

Also, Joe Diorio is a player who was deeply influenced by Hall's 4th stuff, and ran with it in his own way, though his recordings can be hard to find. Diorio supplemented a lot of this with McCoy Tyner stuff, as did Lenny Breau.

For those really interested in getting into quartal harmony more deeply, check out some Aaron Copland...


It can add profound depth to the Gm7/C7 vamp



Not to bust your chops, because I dig where you're going with this, but -

I don't believe one can 'add depth' to anything by way of applying more harmonic tricks. I believe it's possible for profound depth to come from purity of intention, even if one is playing "Michael Row The Boat Ashore" with nothing but triads.

I'm sorry - it's a pet peeve. Like those guys that say you can 'add emotion' to your playing by using vibrato...not that you were saying that...and it may just be a semantic obsession of mine...anyway...anyone for Margaritas?

[Lucidology]

Wonderful post Ken..

When are you going to publish these insightful views on playing music?
Seems you may have enough material already on this website...


(I'm serious....:YinYang )

[KRosser]

Wonderful post Ken..

When are you going to publish these insightful views on playing music?
Seems you may have enough material already on this website...


(I'm serious....:YinYang )

Dude, I'm flattered..

That has been suggested/encouraged to me before, and I have seriously thought about it, but -

There's life....lots of it...that needs my urgent attention right now. The book will have to be on the back burner for a while.

There are so many good books out there already, anyway. When I have the time, and if I feel the need, I'll try to add one to the pile....

[Dajbro]

Wonderful post Ken..

When are you going to publish these insightful views on playing music?
Seems you may have enough material already on this website...


(I'm serious....:YinYang )

For real!

David

[kimock]

All twelves notes are always in play

When playing say a G min/C7 vamp
I can play the min7sus chord anywhere
and my ear accepts it at least as a
tension moving to resolution.
I find this 'out of the key'
note acceptance grounded on the melody note
very interesting.
Playing 'out' in 4ths help me hear the 'out' better.
It's like the stack of 4ths are all consonant
It seems to work a little like a safety net.

How might you transfer this thinking to single note playing?

The G-/C7 sound isn't the easiest territory to learn to hear stacks of 4ths "in/out" . . .

If you're hearing it resolve to G- you're not getting the benefit of hearing the big major/lydian release to a tonic major chord.

So to start, making the "in" as strong as it can be helps to clarify the "out".

Go stare unblinking at the circle of fifths for awhile.

You're just flipping from one side of the menu, "C up"

To "C down"

as you move your stack of 4ths up by half step.

The motion is tonic to subdominant.

Yeah, I know, just think about it for a minute. . .

[tonefingers]

The G-/C7 sound isn't the easiest territory to learn to hear stacks of 4ths "in/out" . . .

If you're hearing it resolve to G- you're not getting the benefit of hearing the big major/lydian release to a tonic major chord.

So to start, making the "in" as strong as it can be helps to clarify the "out".

Go stare unblinking at the circle of fifths for awhile.

You're just flipping from one side of the menu, "C up"

To "C down"

as you move your stack of 4ths up by half step.

The motion is tonic to subdominant.

Yeah, I know, just think about it for a minute. . .
Ok Steve, I'm getting on that right away.
- With thinking.

Ouch, thinking is painful.
If my stack is tonic, moving down by 1/2 step
wouldn't that be a tritone sub of F.
Steve, you got me again. But not for long.
Dang.

Could you please illistrate the tonic to subdominant motion
that you are talking about.
And how to use the circle to see this stuff.

if you want to use this.

....................C..........................Am
................F.......G..................Dm..... Em
.............Bb............D..........Gm.......... ..Bm
...........Eb................A......Cm............ ....F#m
.............Ab...........E...........Fm.......... .C#m
................Db.....B.................Bbm....G# m
....................F#.......................D#m
....................Gb........................Ebm

Thank you for challenging me.

[tonefingers]

Bill is a giant for sure, one of my favorite guitarists, ever, so - much respect...

But, that said - most of his quartal stuff sounds to me to come directly from Jim Hall, who should probably have the props on that one. Check out the solo guitar version of "I Should Care" from "Where Would I Be" for a doctoral thesis on this exact phenomenon you're referring to (and, he does that - harmonizing melody notes with parallel clusters/stacks - with more than just 4ths)

Also, Joe Diorio is a player who was deeply influenced by Hall's 4th stuff, and ran with it in his own way, though his recordings can be hard to find. Diorio supplemented a lot of this with McCoy Tyner stuff, as did Lenny Breau.

For those really interested in getting into quartal harmony more deeply, check out some Aaron Copland...



Not to bust your chops, because I dig where you're going with this, but -

I don't believe one can 'add depth' to anything by way of applying more harmonic tricks. I believe it's possible for profound depth to come from purity of intention, even if one is playing "Michael Row The Boat Ashore" with nothing but triads.

I'm sorry - it's a pet peeve. Like those guys that say you can 'add emotion' to your playing by using vibrato...not that you were saying that...and it may just be a semantic obsession of mine...anyway...anyone for Margaritas?
My friend, I put myself out there, expose myself, so I can
Benifit from your experience and wisdom.

I'm not afraid to sound dumb at times - if I walk away with the prize.

Of course I could quit music and do something easy in life
like brain surgery.

Many people read these posts, only a few ask the questions.

And man, do I have questions.

Like Steves latest brain twister

"as you move your stack of 4ths up by half step.

The motion is tonic to subdominant."

I don't get this yet, and yet I do it in my playing.

I've been looking at the circle of 5ths, and it doesn't
give up its secrets too easily.
But with a little help from my friends...

What's your take on Steves post?

peace bro

[drfrankencopter]

This stuff is way beyond by harmonic knowledge, but perhaps the reason that 4ths can works so well in or out of key is that by themselves they are a very harmonious interval (i.e. perfect), and do not suggest minor or major tonalities.

I certainl find that when just jamming chords to come up with song ideas that playing sus2's and sus4s as well as 4th and 5th stacks keeps me in safe 'ambiguous' harmonic territory.

Cheers

Kris

[KRosser]

My friend, I put myself out there, expose myself, so I can
Benifit from your experience and wisdom.

I'm not afraid to sound dumb at times - if I walk away with the prize.

Of course I could quit music and do something easy in life
like brain surgery.

Many people read these posts, only a few ask the questions.

And man, do I have questions.

Like Steves latest brain twister

"as you move your stack of 4ths up by half step.

The motion is tonic to subdominant."

I don't get this yet, and yet I do it in my playing.

I've been looking at the circle of 5ths, and it doesn't
give up its secrets too easily.
But with a little help from my friends...

What's your take on Steves post?

peace bro

Steve's post lacks a few details for me to know exactly what he's referring to, but I'll venture a guess.

The tip off is in his 'lydian major release' comment.

So -

If you have a stack of fourths - B-E-A standing in for an F lydian major chord, raising it a half-step would yield C-F-Bb, which strongly suggests a subdominant minor 11th chord to my ears.

It all depends on:

1) What Steve intended the 'stack of 4ths' to specifically represent, since for instance B-E-A can be a C, D, F, G or A major-type chord, a Db, D, Eb, G, Ab or A dominant-type chord, a C#, D, F# or A minor-type chord, or an E or B sus4-type chord (and a dissonant 'cluster' in Bb - very important!)

2) How large a 'stack of 4ths' we're talking about. A four-note stack has different harmonic implications than a three-note stack

Steve?

[tonefingers]

Thanks Ken.
I see what your saying.
Very smart.
Further on down the road,


Just trying to weave a basket.

[kimock]

Steve's post lacks a few details for me to know exactly what he's referring to, but I'll venture a guess.

The tip off is in his 'lydian major release' comment.

So -

If you have a stack of fourths - B-E-A standing in for an F lydian major chord, raising it a half-step would yield C-F-Bb, which strongly suggests a subdominant minor 11th chord to my ears.

It all depends on:

1) What Steve intended the 'stack of 4ths' to specifically represent, since for instance B-E-A can be a C, D, F, G or A major-type chord, a Db, D, Eb, G, Ab or A dominant-type chord, a C#, D, F# or A minor-type chord, or an E or B sus4-type chord (and a dissonant 'cluster' in Bb - very important!)

2) How large a 'stack of 4ths' we're talking about. A four-note stack has different harmonic implications than a three-note stack

Steve?

Hi Ken!
The question sounded like function/application to me.
Where are these 4th chords going?
What's the translation from where they're at to my single note lines?

It's been correctly stated here that a large part of our attraction to these sounds is their ambiguity.
I'm assuming that that ambiguity needs to be reduced to a tolerable minimum to get the applications started.

I'm assuming the "how does this relate to single note lines?" question is going to be answered in conventional diatonic chord/scale terms.

So, the "parent stack" of 4ths would be all seven notes of the C major scale. B E A D G C F. Or, F C G D A E B as 5ths

The pentatonic scale octave reduction of which is all you need to get some tonic major function going on.

C D E G A. Major enough?

As a guitar chord, my pet voicing is C in the bass on the A string with
the E A D G stack of 4ths above. At which point I've "run out of horn"...

So, without getting too fancy, that chord C 6/9 and the C major pentatonic scale represent the tonic function and starting form.

Sing that pentatonic scale over the C 6/9 chord a couple of times to get the sound of it in your head. Make a little music with it. . .

OK, look at your circle of 5ths again and see where you are.

You're working that area from C up to E.

Play the C 6/9 chord again. Keep the low and high voices and move the interior of the stack up a fret. C F B flat E flat G.

Play that move a couple of times, C 6/9 to C-7 11 or whatever you call it, and listen to the chromatic motion of that stack of 4ths nailed to the tonality of C by the Root and Fifth that are framing it.

If we continue the pentatonic scale=stack of 4ths idea to this new chord, you get C- pentatonic.

Try singing a couple of basic blues licks over those two chords as if you were playing over the one chord and the four chord in a blues.

I think that this is the most basic harmonic interpretation possible of how a student might get a handle on the shifting tonalities implied by chromatic motion in 4ths.

The full shift would be C to A flat obviously, look at the circle. . .

The major/minor quality of this basic and very mild in/out move is forshadowed by the center of its symmetry being the quarter tone between C and G. The "hinge" as it were smack dab in the middle of E flat and E.

Anyway, the right hand side of the circle for our purposes is "in".
The left hand side is "out".

Any melodic fragment that lives on the "in" side will have a counterpart symmetrically opposed on the "out" side.
Corresponding to either the polarity of the thirds, major/minor in which case up from the Tonic is reflected down from the dominant:

C D E = Major

G F E flat = minor

Or corresponding to the Harmonic symmetry exactly:

C D E

C B flat A flat

As above so below with C as center.

Yeah, I know. . .

Think about it. :NUTS

[tonefingers]

....................C..........................Am
................F.......G..................Dm..... Em
.............Bb............D..........Gm.......... ..Bm
...........Eb................A......Cm............ ....F#m
.............Ab...........E...........Fm.......... .C#m
................Db.....B.................Bbm....G# m
....................F#.......................D#m
....................Gb........................Ebm

The answer is in there
How to see it in there

Like a lyon hidden in tall grasses.
--------------------------------

Steve, I'm getting it, I really am.
Just had a moment. Everything makes complete sence.
For the moment.
Thanks man,

We're talking C major pent and its reciprical Ab maj pent
Sort of like matter and Dark matter
Or if you push on a balloon you create a hole
but on the inside surface, a complete opposite hill.
A polarity.

I like the sound of these two pents.
and I'm listening for the hinge note.

The other examples C, D, E, = major, and G, F, E = minor
I see the reciprical nature but it comes back to
to the fact I'm a bit cofused. That's my nature it seems.
This might be the spiraling nature of the circle you have mentioned.
That's still lofty thinking, those spirals.
How do the spirals spiral my friend.

You mentioned the blues,that would be a great
place for one to work this kind of thing up?
At least the C and Ab pents, I - IV

When and what situations can one jump into this bag?
Every situation, right? lol Just guessing.

Just a little 'out', that's all I ask.






I

[kimock]

Or if you push on a balloon you create a hole
but on the inside surface, a complete opposite hill.
A polarity.



The other examples C, D, E, = major, and G, F, E = minor




Just a little 'out', that's all I ask.








Just trying to make the point that chromatic motion with a stack of 4ths doesn't neccesarily mean move your scale application chromatically.

In the example I gave, the "chromaticism" didn't change the tonic.
More of a modal modulation or some such bullshit. . .

In re. visualization "deformed balloon", etc.

One simple physical analogy that conforms to my own observation of this harmony stuff is "ball in funnel".

Imagine you're holding the spout of a funnel in your fingers, the open end up.
Drop a marble in there, and it just sits at the bottom of the funnel.
It's at rest. Let's call that C. Tonic, whatever. . .

Give the funnel a little spin, and the marble climbs up out of it's at rest position and spins in a circle around it's tonic position.

On one side of its travel it's G, or dominant.
On the opposite side, it's F, or subdominant.

Add a little more energy to that system and by the time you hit E on the dom. side, you know you've got to hit A flat on the subdom side.

If you spin it hard enough to hit B, you just invited D flat to the party, etc.

Let the energy drain out, ball spirals back to tonic. Game over.

Anyhow, you meant E flat in your maj/min example, right?

If you want more out, go back to the other example and turn both those pentatonic scales into blues scales.
Harmonize freely, the added chromaticism is in just the right place for some familiar "out" sounds.

More fun? Do this in E so you can keep a low E and A to refer to. . .

Take your E blues scale, E G A B flat B D E, and reverse the interval sequence so that it reads DOWN from E.

So, if E is going up a minor third to G, its going to go down a minor third to C#, right?
Up to A, down to B.
This is nice here, up to B flat, down to B flat.
Up to B, yup down to A.
Up to D, down to F#. . . done

D
B
B flat
A
G
E center
C#
B
B flat
A
F#

Two different interpretations of the blues scales, right? One's F#, the other is E. . .
Top half is the factory issue blues thing, the bottom half's got both 3rds instead of both 5ths. . .

Bottom half still has that familiar C# F# B E A stack of 4ths thing tho,

Top half still has B E A D G,
but the B flat with E A D on top of it
puts that family of sounds
on the "out" list for me.

Bottom half is tonic.

Harmonize freely, the 4ths are ambiguous, the blues scales have no avoid tones.
Do your best to keep the two batches of harmony strict until you're comfortable with the tonic/non-tonic differentiation sound, then just play.

Start with E or A for a tonic, and try one, four alternately for roots.

Have fun!

[tonefingers]

Here are Cmajor pent and Ab major pent


C maj pent

|-0-----3---5------8---10----12----|
|---1---3---5------8---10-------13-|
|-0---2-----5----7---9-------12----|
|-0---2-----5----7-----10----12----|
|-0-----3---5----7-----10----12----|
|-0-----3---5------8---10----12----|


Ab maj pent

|---1-----4---6----8-------11----13-|
|---1-----4---6-------9----11----13-|
|---1---3---5------8----10-------13-|
|---1---3-----6----8----10-------13-|
|---1---3-----6----8-------11----13-|
|---1-----4---6----8-------11----13-|


Mixed
C = 6,4,2 strings Ab = 5,3,1 strings

|---1-----4---6----8-------11---13-|Ab
|---1---3---5------8---10-------13-|C
|---1---3---5------8---10-------13-|Ab
|-0---2-----5----7-----10----12----|C
|---1---3-----6----8-------11---13-|Ab
|-0-----3---5------8---10----12-----|C


C = 5,3,1 strings Ab = 6,4,2 strings

|-0-----3---5------8---10----12----|C
|---1-----4---6------9-----11---13-|Ab
|-0---2-----5----7-----10----12----|C
|---1---3-----6----8-------11---13-|Ab
|-0-----3---5----7-----10----12----|C
|---1-----4---6----8-------11---13-|Ab

Interesting

The first mixed one is so vertical
and the second is so diagonal.

Putting one scale (C) on say the 3rd and 1st string
allows you to play sixths that sound sweet and
on the second string you have an 'out' note to plug in.

I have no problem using the full C major scale in this concept.??


.

[tonefingers]

Here are Cmajor pent and Ab major pent


C maj pent

|-0-----3---5------8---10----12----|
|---1---3---5------8---10-------13-|
|-0---2-----5----7---9-------12----|
|-0---2-----5----7-----10----12----|
|-0-----3---5----7-----10----12----|
|-0-----3---5------8---10----12----|


Ab maj pent

|---1-----4---6----8-------11----13-|
|---1-----4---6-------9----11----13-|
|---1---3---5------8----10-------13-|
|---1---3-----6----8----10-------13-|
|---1---3-----6----8-------11----13-|
|---1-----4---6----8-------11----13-|


Mixed
C = 6,4,2 strings Ab = 5,3,1 strings

|---1-----4---6----8-------11---13-|Ab
|---1---3---5------8---10-------13-|C
|---1---3---5------8---10-------13-|Ab
|-0---2-----5----7-----10----12----|C
|---1---3-----6----8-------11---13-|Ab
|-0-----3---5------8---10----12-----|C


C = 5,3,1 strings Ab = 6,4,2 strings

|-0-----3---5------8---10----12----|C
|---1-----4---6------9-----11---13-|Ab
|-0---2-----5----7-----10----12----|C
|---1---3-----6----8-------11---13-|Ab
|-0-----3---5----7-----10----12----|C
|---1-----4---6----8-------11---13-|Ab

Interesting

The first mixed one is so vertical
and the second is so diagonal.

Putting one scale (C) on say the 3rd and 1st string
allows you to play sixths that sound sweet and
on the second string you have an 'out' note to plug in.

I have no problem using the full C major scale in this concept.??


.
any thoughts on these grids

[kimock]

any thoughts on these grids

You got some nice sounds on there, keep going!

:)

[tonefingers]

Steve, these are really nice sounds

Been playing the ideas.

Ab pent is very cool, you can hang all day on it
playing against a C7 to F7 vamp

For all you blues guys, you should be checking this out.

This is something new you can do with the ol' I IV

And like Kimock said, it relates to SRV and Albert King and to the
way they would bend slightly past the 5th.
Sugar, that's what it is.

Try this,

Play the C minor pent on the bottom 6,5,4,3, strings
make sure to do a lot of emotional bending with
the 3rd string 10th fret, make that bend as sweet as possible.
Now, quickly check that second string 8th fret.
you probobly have been playing your bent note sharp.

Call it grease, whatever, it sounds good.

Some notes just sound better moved around.
A little up, a little down. A little oWt.

Adding the Ab major to C blues playing is perfect for the
greasy players out there.

- And you know who you are.

So, Steve, thanks for all the wonderful energy you
put in your posts. I am actually thinking different
with my music. This stuff is just not the same old hash.
In the end the things you are talking about is not that
difficult.

[tonefingers]

Ok, just read more Kimock a couple before this, where he talks of
a reverse symetry with the E minor pent

Check this out


|---------------|-------------|-------12-15-|-|
|---------------|-------------|-12-15-------|-|
|---------------|-------12-14-|-------------|-|
|---------------|-12-14-------|-------------|-|
|---------12-14-|-------------|-------------|-|
|---12-15-------|-------------|-------------|-|


|--------------|-------------|------9-12-|-|
|--------------|-------------|-9-12------|-|
|--------------|-------10-12-|-----------|-|
|--------------|-10-12-------|-----------|-|
|--------10-12-|-------------|-----------|-|
|---9-12-------|-------------|-----------|-|

Mirror image of the E minor pent

Sounds great. And out.

Amazing, I'm blown away


Easy.




.

[kimock]

Ok, just read more Kimock a couple before this, where he talks of
a reverse symetry with the E minor pent

Check this out


|---------------|-------------|-------12-15-|-|
|---------------|-------------|-12-15-------|-|
|---------------|-------12-14-|-------------|-|
|---------------|-12-14-------|-------------|-|
|---------12-14-|-------------|-------------|-|
|---12-15-------|-------------|-------------|-|


|--------------|-------------|------9-12-|-|
|--------------|-------------|-9-12------|-|
|--------------|-------10-12-|-----------|-|
|--------------|-10-12-------|-----------|-|
|--------10-12-|-------------|-----------|-|
|---9-12-------|-------------|-----------|-|

Mirror image of the E minor pent

Sounds great. And out.

Amazing, I'm blown away


Easy.




.

That's cool, but my example was inverting an interval sequence, above and below a tonic.

The example above mirrors a fingering around the 12th fret.

My deal, in half steps, was 3 2 1 1 3 2.
Up from E, down from E.

Your first diagram, I guess we call that E minor pentatonic here, right?
In half steps would be 3 2 2 3 2. Up from the root. . .

Your "inverted" example, if the pitches were arranged in descending order from E would be 2 1 1 1 2 1 1 2 1, or something equally awful. .

So, that's not really an inversion, is it?

Totaly cool anyway, you could generate all sorts of shifting tonality type sounds and "guitaristic" sequences with that latest diagram.
I like it.
It's got nothing to do with my example!

:BEER
Over and out!

[tonefingers]

Oh Heck

I now get what your saying, But,

Cool things can be created by accident.

Now to work on your concept.

[tonefingers]

Ok, submit ex.2a for approval

Steve, I reread your instructions and sure enough I got it wrong

This one I think is correct.
It's still easy.

Play E tonic or A tonic.

Emin pent
|---------------|-------------|-------------|-12-|
|---------------|-------------|-------12-15-|----|
|---------------|----------12-|-14-15-------|----|
|---------------|----12-14----|-------------|----|
|---------12-13-|-14----------|-------------|----|
|---12-15-------|-------------|-------------|----|

Reversed interval sequence
|---------------|-------------|-------------|-12-|
|---------------|-------------|----11-12-14-|----|
|---------------|----------11-|-14----------|----|
|---------------|----11-14----|-------------|----|
|---------12-13-|-14----------|-------------|----|
|---12-14-------|-------------|-------------|----|

Reversed interval sequence 'new fingering'
|---12-9-------|------------|-----------|------|
|--------12-11-|-10---------|-----------|------|
|--------------|----11-9----|-----------|------|
|--------------|---------11-|-9---------|------|
|--------------|------------|---13-12-9-|------|
|--------------|------------|-----------|-12-9-|

As F# min blues
|-----------|---------|-------2-|-5-|
|-----------|---------|---2-5---|---|
|-----------|-----2-3-|-4-------|---|
|-----------|-2-4-----|---------|---|
|-------2-4-|---------|---------|---|
|---2-5-----|---------|---------|---|




I now understand how I mis-interpreted the data.

Thanks

This correct scale you are talking about sounds great.

I see how E min has the 5 and b5
and F#min has the 3 and b3
Microtonal universe in there, right?
this scale sounds like a natural for some greasy slippage.

Pull offs to open strings or just using open strings seem to
be an easy way to mix the two scales up.

The Bb E A D stack is a cool out 4th sound
and leads back into the E min blues thing real nice.
Also sounds good going to A as the I chord
Is it also a Bbmaj7(#11) or should it be thought
of as just 4ths.

You metioned E or A as the tonic? A little confused on that.
Not on the sound. The sound is great on both tonics
but seem to have a different hit in each situation.
Or are these two tonics in some sort of polarity
or inversion sceme?
E>A = I>IV and A>E = I>V

And then after all that, it's out of tune.
A whole new concideration.
Like learning to play all over again.

This is good stuff, fresh ideas.










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