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View Full Version : Ceriatone 5e3 with Neil young mods


thusunpeng
05-03-2007, 01:39 PM
Hi!

I'm planning to get the 5e3 tweed deluxe amplifier from ceriatone.. And I really like the sound of Neil Young's deluxe.. I've heard that he has done some mod's for his amp so it could handle 6L6's or something like that.. Do you guys have any advices to get THAT sound?? and is it possible to get it built with those mod's from ceriatone??

Thanks!!

AshlandBump
05-03-2007, 02:25 PM
Don't know about Ceriatone but Mission amps (missionamps.com, I think) makes a deluxe that can be upgraded to use 6L6 tubes.

Curly
05-03-2007, 02:31 PM
AFAIK, it's just a matter of upgrading a couple of resistors.

DirtyChains
05-03-2007, 02:44 PM
Neil has said they went through so many amps trying to find one like "THE" one, and he never found it. It might be modded, but he was talking about the amp itself the way I interpreted things. I have to agree with him, the Crazy Horse stuff and most everything else done with that amp has tone for days. He says it's one of a kind and I believe him.

The guy at Pure 64 Amps says the same thing. I think we have all heard THAT tone and are chasing it. That along with the fun of chasing it is why we are here and spend as much time talking about it and doing research as we do playing-least I do. I am sure others are guilty too.

Curly says it's just a couple of resistors and he is probably right on the schematic, but in my mind there will never be another Neil Young Fender, NEVER.

hasserl
05-03-2007, 03:34 PM
You'd want to upgrade the cathode resistor to 10 watts. Depending on the power transformer you might be putting a strain on it trying to run 6L6's.

It's all subjective, but I've never thought Neil YOungs tone was such a great example of a tweed Deluxe. IMO it's over the top, farty adn blatty. I think tweed Deluxe amps are capapble of much better tone that that.

Curly
05-03-2007, 03:39 PM
I have a bad habit of not being specific enough.

If you plan to run 6L6s in a tweed Deluxe, Bruce at Mission Amps and some other suggest beefing up the (cathode?) resistors from 5w 270 ohm (I think) to 10 watts -- on the layout, they are just next to the filter caps.

I'm certainly not saying that will get you Neil's tone either, it's just what you need to do to run those tubes. Neil also uses a fan because his amp runs hot.

Neil's old Deluxe may be "the one", but most tweed Deluxes sound killer when they're set up right.

personally, I like regular old 6V6s, but whatever ...
I have a Hamer Artist with Duncan Seths in it, and it gets close to Neil's tone. I found that out kinda accidently when a friend came over and played that combo CRANKED ... on the edge harmonics and sustain. I think the Seths help because they're a little raw and not potted -- remember that Neil's black LP has a VERY microphonic pickup ... I think it's a T Bird pickup?

my 5E3 clone just doesn't get that close -- I think it's a matter of component and tranny differences.


http://www.bluestheater.net/Deluxe.jpg

I have the old Guitar Player article with Neil's gear listed, and the specifics of his amps. IIRC, he bought his Deluxe used for $50 in '67.

DirtyChains
05-03-2007, 06:12 PM
You'd want to upgrade the cathode resistor to 10 watts. Depending on the power transformer you might be putting a strain on it trying to run 6L6's.

It's all subjective, but I've never thought Neil YOungs tone was such a great example of a tweed Deluxe. IMO it's over the top, farty adn blatty. I think tweed Deluxe amps are capapble of much better tone that that.

I do like the tone of the amp but I have also heard better. My point was that it is his tone and he says that he could not find another even close. I was merely pointing out how different amps can be and how great it must feel to find THE ONE. Most of us here have not.

DirtyChains
05-03-2007, 06:14 PM
Curly, I understood what you were saying. See the post above for my thoughts on Neil's amp.

I have a bad habit of not being specific enough.

If you plan to run 6L6s in a tweed Deluxe, Bruce at Mission Amps and some other suggest beefing up the (cathode?) resistors from 5w 270 ohm (I think) to 10 watts -- on the layout, they are just next to the filter caps.

I'm certainly not saying that will get you Neil's tone either, it's just what you need to do to run those tubes. Neil also uses a fan because his amp runs hot.

Neil's old Deluxe may be "the one", but most tweed Deluxes sound killer when they're set up right.

personally, I like regular old 6V6s, but whatever ...
I have a Hamer Artist with Duncan Seths in it, and it gets close to Neil's tone. I found that out kinda accidently when a friend came over and played that combo CRANKED ... on the edge harmonics and sustain. I think the Seths help because they're a little raw and not potted -- remember that Neil's black LP has a VERY microphonic pickup ... I think it's a T Bird pickup?

my 5E3 clone just doesn't get that close -- I think it's a matter of component and tranny differences.


http://www.bluestheater.net/Deluxe.jpg

I have the old Guitar Player article with Neil's gear listed, and the specifics of his amps. IIRC, he bought his Deluxe used for $50 in '67.

thusunpeng
05-03-2007, 07:12 PM
Thanks a lot for the answers!

How does modding it to use 6L6's change it in general?? does it get louder or does it also affect the tone? Is it anyway clever to use bigger tubes in it?

Rick51
05-04-2007, 08:34 AM
6L6's put out noticeably more power. A stock 5E3 puts out about 15 watts cranked. Modified to run 6L6's, 25 watts. Internal voltages must be changed. Mission recommends a different OT with 6L6's as well as other component changes like those descibed in this thread.

My 2 cents worth is that if you can't engineer the circuitry yourself, get your kit from an expert who will stand behind his work.

I built a stock Mission 5E3 kit. To me it sounds very nearly like Neal Young's sound on the clip of "Cortez the Killer" found on Tonequest.com. Of course after 40 years of playing, my hearing isn't quite the same as everyone else's...

marscottm
05-04-2007, 12:02 PM
Neil has several hundred original 5E3's and he says none of the others compare to the one. His bridge pickup is a microphonic Firebird mini-humbucker. My '55 GA-6 is as close as I can get.

Roe
05-05-2007, 06:35 AM
here's some info on neil young's sound:
http://www.thrasherswheat.org/sound.htm

pbradt
05-05-2007, 08:27 AM
Hi!

I'm planning to get the 5e3 tweed deluxe amplifier from ceriatone.. And I really like the sound of Neil Young's deluxe.. I've heard that he has done some mod's for his amp so it could handle 6L6's or something like that.. Do you guys have any advices to get THAT sound?? and is it possible to get it built with those mod's from ceriatone??

Thanks!!
While I'm sure it's possible to get in the ballpark, you will never have Neil Young's tone. You could play HIS guitar through HIS amp and you wouldn't sound like him.

You ain't him.

When I was a kid, I was truly, the biggest Who fan on the face of the planet. When I was 19, I inherited a fairly small sum of money and I spent half of it on an SG Special and a Hiwatt 50-watt half stack.

DAMMIT, I wanted Live At Leeds to come out, when all that came out was me. I had that stuff for two months, sold it at a loss and went back to my Telecaster.

You don't have to SOUND like Neil Young to COVER Neil Young. Just make it sound like you.

Someone asked me what I like so much about the 5F4 Super I built over the winter, and I said, "it oozes Peteness." When I play that thing, it sounds like me.

You can mod your amp until time itself comes to a stop and you won't sound much different than you do right now. It's YOU that makes the difference.

Peppy
05-05-2007, 09:27 AM
You don't have to SOUND like Neil Young to COVER Neil Young.

You can mod your amp until time itself comes to a stop and you won't sound much different than you do right now. It's YOU that makes the difference.


Let's all just buy some cheap s/s Gorilla amps, a cheap Teisco guitar (as long as it can be playable) and focus our hard-earned $$ somewhere else. After all, when playing Neil Young it's okay to use a Dual Rectifier, set to major distortion, with an ES-175D as the guitar, to play "Cowgirl in the Sand". Play a Tele through a Twin to get that "Rust in Peace" tone for your Megadeth covers. So, since "you won't sound much different" why worry about gear....more importantly, why be on The Gear Page?

Rod
05-05-2007, 09:59 AM
I own a Whipporwill 6L6 tweed deluxe that sounds truly wonderful..

NatStrat79
05-05-2007, 12:15 PM
My '55 GA-6 is as close as I can get.

Thats interesting because my '56 GA-6 sounds closer to Neil Youngs tone than any tweed deluxe clone I've played through including one I built with 6l6's.

72sg
05-05-2007, 10:20 PM
Let's all just buy some cheap s/s Gorilla amps, a cheap Teisco guitar (as long as it can be playable) and focus our hard-earned $$ somewhere else. After all, when playing Neil Young it's okay to use a Dual Rectifier, set to major distortion, with an ES-175D as the guitar, to play "Cowgirl in the Sand". Play a Tele through a Twin to get that "Rust in Peace" tone for your Megadeth covers. So, since "you won't sound much different" why worry about gear....more importantly, why be on The Gear Page?


You're going way out of your way to draw this silly inference.

I don't play -- golf that is -- , but I like golf analogies. He's just sayin' ... good clubs help, but it's mostly about the swing. Clubs will get you so far, but it's up to you to hit the ball. Like, maybe it frustrates him when people won't quit dik'n around with the clubs and just hit the ball?

Obviously, bad clubs won't help. And putting with a three wood ... well that would just be stupid.

bolero
05-05-2007, 10:34 PM
I dig Neil's gtr tone !!!


:BEER:BEER

Peppy
05-06-2007, 03:04 AM
You're going way out of your way to draw this silly inference.

I don't play -- golf that is -- , but I like golf analogies. He's just sayin' ... good clubs help, but it's mostly about the swing. Clubs will get you so far, but it's up to you to hit the ball. Like, maybe it frustrates him when people won't quit dik'n around with the clubs and just hit the ball?

Obviously, bad clubs won't help. And putting with a three wood ... well that would just be stupid.


Your first post, welcome to The Gear Page. We'll just have to disagree. I find nothing wrong with the original poster trying to get a sound/tone (nowhere did he infer he was trying to play like Neil Young) as close to Neil Young as possible. To tell him to not even try, as the poster did to whom I was responding to, negates the purpose of this site. It's about doing such...it's about equipment....and specifically this particular forum about amps and cabs.

72sg
05-06-2007, 05:37 PM
And thanks for the welcome. I'm just trying to find my way around!

Peppy
05-06-2007, 11:28 PM
And thanks for the welcome. I'm just trying to find my way around!

:AOK

Turnipfarmer
05-07-2007, 05:52 AM
Mike Clark told me I'd have no problem just switching the 6V6's with 6L6's in my clark Beaufort, as I mentioned Neil's amp to him. I asked if it had a bigger Output Transformer, or if it was a modified circuit and he vaguely replied "sort of". I'm colorblind so I never bothered to try taking note of resistor values- but I think it mostly has to do with his custom made Output Transformer. Neil's tech Larry Crag said once that Neils Deluxe had a "magic" OT- that like the pickups of the time were wound inconsistantly, Neil happened to find one with all the right specs for his sound. The beefier OT may be the only mod - he has to have fans blowing on the tubes to keep it from melting down, and they have a stash of very specific NOS tubes and C12N speaker cones with the accordian style surrounds.

phsyconoodler
05-07-2007, 09:36 AM
Real Tweed Deluxes had several different PT's in them over the years,the most notable being a schumacker.It may or may not be able to handle the extra filament current of 6L6's.I build a 6L6 Deluxe and I use a 40 watt OT and a beefier PT and it has lots more headroom and still grinds like a muther.For serious grit use a 12AX7 in V1.For a softer bluesier sound use a 12AU7.The sound is close to the 6V6's but has more girth and volume to it.Definitely use a 10 watt cathode resistor.Nothing else needs to be changed and it does Neil's tone easily.Think Cinnamon Girl in double drop D.For that matter so does a regular Deluxe,just less volume.
I set mine up so you can use 6V6's,6L6's,KT66's and EL34's for a wider variety.