What are your favorite modes?

[GivenToWail]

I'm currently learning the modes in diatonic form to expand my boundaries. It's overwhelming to try and fit them all in while playing one solo/song/jam, so what i want to know is

What are your favorite modes to use, and any preference for tying a particular mode to certain type of music (ie. Is mixolydian a great mode to use for blues?)?

[MrDoty]

I think this may not be a popular answer but in my mind its all major. the line you are playing has more impact than what mode you are in or what scale shape you use. I guess I use "modes" by default, if im playing inside over a chord and im playing scale stuff than I am using a mode, but I never think about it like that. As long as your lines are smokin' everything else is a moot point. boy i hope some of that made sense.

[GivenToWail]

I think this may not be a popular answer but in my mind its all major. the line you are playing has more impact than what mode you are in or what scale shape you use. I guess I use "modes" by default, if im playing inside over a chord and im playing scale stuff than I am using a mode, but I never think about it like that. As long as your lines are smokin' everything else is a moot point. boy i hope some of that made sense.

What didn't make sense was probably because of my lack of knowledge when it comes to certain terms. What do you mean exactly by the line being played?

[MrDoty]

a musical "line" is like riff, more specifically a series of single notes that comprises a musical idea. Im mostly refering to soloing here I figure thats where the mode conversation gets thrown around most.

[GivenToWail]

a musical "line" is like riff, more specifically a series of single notes that comprises a musical idea. Im mostly refering to soloing here I figure thats where the mode conversation gets thrown around most.

Got ya. I overanalyzed that a bit.

[tkager]

Favorite mode? I don't know. I look at it a little differently. This is the way that I visualize modes. I apologize if it seems a bit long winded:

Modes are dictated by the underlying chord structure. Let's say you have a very simple progression: Aminor, GMajor, FMajor, GMajor... Many songs use a similar sort of progression such as Stairway to Heaven or All Along the Watchtower.

By Analyzing the chord structure, you see that an A minor consists of ACE, G Major consits of GBD, F Major consists of FAC. In essence, when we string all of these notes together, we have the notes ABCDEFG. This is A Aeolian (Natrual Minor) which is relative to CMajor.

All of the modes of C Major are:
C Ionian (Major)
D Dorian
E Phrygian
F Lydian
G Mixolydian
A Aeolian (Natrual Minor)
B Locrian

Here is how I try to apply this information:

Since the progression that I provided includes simple chords, consisting of the 1st, 3rd and 5th, these are essentially the notes that you would want to resolve to. When I say resolve, I mean end on, or otherwise stress. The main point, is that any other note in the scale might sound a bit funky (unresolved), over a given chord.

So over the Aminor.
> You could play A Aeolian.
> You could also play C Major.
> You could play E Phrygian.
> In practice, you might play any other of the C Major modes, you just need to make sure that you choose to "resolve" to the 1st 3rd or 5th. In my opinion, where you end off a run (or any notes that you choose to sit on or emphasize) are much more important than necessarily where you start (or what happens in between). Let's put it this way, when playing a scale you have many tones which you don't emphasize, which could be considered passing tones, but that would not sound resolved (or possibly dissonant) if you ended your run on them, or sat on them for a period of time.

So over the G Major
> You could play G Ionian (Major).
> You could also play B Locrian (though you might choose to resolve to G or D - since a straight Locrian scale sounds somewhat unresolved).
> You could also play a D Dorian.
> Again 1, 3, 5 resolution is most important.

F Major
> F Lydian (I really like Lydian because of the Augemented 4th)
> A Aeolian
> C Ionian
> Again 1, 3,5 resolution....

There are time when you don't end up a run on the 1st, 3rd or 5th. One case might be when you are trying to lead into the next chord in the progession. For example, over A, you play a natrual minor but end off on F. This "passing tone" may lead well into the next chord in the progression which is a G.

This is a very basic explanation. In reality, I look at modes in 2 different ways (phrasing and color). I think that maybe people get confused by this concept when learning modes:

First, you have phrasing (which is what I mention above). In other words you can play an E phrygian over an A minor. However, the feel is still a lot like A minor.

Second, compositionally you have a progression that it written to take advantage of a given mode. For example, let's say you had a progression that went E Minor, F Major, C Major, E Minor. Although we could employ all of the same principles as before (1,3,5) the underlying feel would be Phrygian.

Last Note: Could you play an A Dorian over the A Minor? You certainly could, but this would technically be out of key, as it includes an F#, not an F, which is a very important part of the progression. In essense, you will need to change keys when playing over the F.

Well, anyway, this is my perspective on it... Hope that it was helpful.

Tom

[GivenToWail]

Hope that it was helpful.

It was. Thank you for explaining all that. I guess when i was introduced to the modes, I perceived them the wrong way, or maybe just differently. Theoretically, would it be correct ( or i guess tasteful) to play, for example, either a D Dorian or A Aeolian or over the entire progression? As long as the key is A Minor of course...

[tkager]

Modes are one of those concepts that people struggle with quite a bit. It took a long time to start thinking of them this way. Perhaps others visualize them differently. I am not quite sure. I think that you understand the concept, it is just a question of how you put all of this information together.

It would be theoretically correct, it is just that you probably want to resolve with respect to the underlying chord.

Let say you play an A Aeolian over the G Major. If you ended on an A note over the G it is going to sound odd (perhaps not tasteful), but if you ended the scale on the G, B or D, it would sound much more complete and resolved (since these notes are the 1st, 3rd and 5th of the G chord). In this case, I guess you would say that you resolve to a G Mixolydian, B Locrian, or D Dorian. I am a bit reluctant to say that you would be "completely" playing within a given mode, just resolving to the 1st 3rd or 5th of the underlying chord.

You still are playing all of the same notes, it is just a question of phrasing and resolution.

Anyway, this is how I view it.

Tom

[GivenToWail]

Awesome. Thanks a lot. Off topic, where in NJ are you from?

[tkager]

NP at all. I hope that this was helpful. I suppose that this is one of those concepts for which many people may have different perspectives. This is just the way that I see it.

I live in Hunterdon County, near Clinton. How about you?

Tom

[GivenToWail]

Camden County... Cherry Hill/Haddonfield area. I was just wondering if you might be in a band playing around here. I'm always up for seeing some live music any night of the week.

[tkager]

I am not in a band. I did put some effort into trying some folks to jam with locally, and actually was looking to join a band, but then after not finding very much in my geographic area, decided that I wanted to concentrate my efforts on practicing, composing and recording. How about yourself?

Thanks,
Tom

[A-Bone]

In addition to playing (which is always first and foremost) to really get a feel for modality you might check out the Miles Davis modal jazz stuff from the 50s (Kind of Blue, Sketches of Spain). Scrutinizing modal jazz is a great way of learning to appreciate the impact of tonality and overall sonority on note and scalar choices in both a melodic and a soloing context.

As a completely different tack, thrash and speed metal are also often pretty great for this kind of study, as the prevalence of songs in one overall tonality (low E or low D strings driving the overall riffing especially) has led to a great deal of modal and scalar variety on the part of many of these bands. Of course, you have to enjoy or tolerate this kind of aural assault, and it is not for everyone.

[tkager]

That's fine. I understand where you are coming from, but I think that starting off simple and diatonically, is probably the easiest way for someone struggling to understand modes.

Tom

[tkager]

Maybe, but when trying to grasp modes, I think that some of these concepts could be daunting. In all honesty, I think that you need to know, and have a firm foundation with the basic rules before you can really conceptualize breaking them.

Tom

[GivenToWail]

All advice is appreciated and I'm taking pieces from both. For example, when practicing, I'm going to try to work on the basics and get everything down, but if I'm playing with some friends and i start to draw a blank, I may jump to Phrygian or Locrian. Right now, I find myself going back to the Aeolian form even when i try to get away with it. It's just a muscle memory thing i guess.

My goal is basically to avoid paying for lessons. So far, I've been doing pretty well piecing together info from forums and websites, which is 100% thanks to guys like you giving your $0.02. Eventually, I'm sure I'll have to take a few theory lessons, but right now I'm just a broke college student trying to understand what I'm playing when I copy Phish or Scofield or whatever it is I'm learning. I think having the right influences and taste in music is contributing to my knowledge as well. I'm always trying to learn things that will either challenge my skill or knowledge, and I question things like when I notice Trey playing in a scale that I don't recognize. Thanks for all of your input.

[gennation]

All advice is appreciated and I'm taking pieces from both. For example, when practicing, I'm going to try to work on the basics and get everything down, but if I'm playing with some friends and i start to draw a blank, I may jump to Phrygian or Locrian. Right now, I find myself going back to the Aeolian form even when i try to get away with it. It's just a muscle memory thing i guess.

My goal is basically to avoid paying for lessons. So far, I've been doing pretty well piecing together info from forums and websites, which is 100% thanks to guys like you giving your $0.02. Eventually, I'm sure I'll have to take a few theory lessons, but right now I'm just a broke college student trying to understand what I'm playing when I copy Phish or Scofield or whatever it is I'm learning. I think having the right influences and taste in music is contributing to my knowledge as well. I'm always trying to learn things that will either challenge my skill or knowledge, and I question things like when I notice Trey playing in a scale that I don't recognize. Thanks for all of your input.

Probably one of the main reasons you find yourself "going back to Aeolian" is because you're playing "diatonic music" as opposed to "Modal Music". There's a BIG difference and it's one of the reason for "modal confusion".

When you play modal music there really isn't a choice of scales...just the right scale, or pivoting modes (which works in theory, but not always musically).

So to say "I have a favorite mode" really means all your songs would have the same harmony.

So, if you're one of those guys who plays in one Key and calls it "modes" there a huge world for you to explore in real modal music. So, if you're playing in C with: C, Am, F, and G and you're thinking...C Ionian, A Aeolian, F Lydian, G Mixolydian...you need to take a step back since that's JUST C Major and you don't need anymore, until the Key changes. But then again if all the new chords are from one Key, again there's no reason to think modes at all, just play in the new Key you moved to.

Maybe I'm wrong, but that might be the reason you keep moving back to Aeolian, besides the fact that the fingering probably suits you too. So, you may be playing a "fingering" you term as Aeolian, but are really playing in the Relative Major scale, or some other scale...because in reality that "fingering" really fits all the modes.

[GivenToWail]

Probably one of the main reasons you find yourself "going back to Aeolian" is because you're playing "diatonic music" as opposed to "Modal Music". There's a BIG difference and it's one of the reason for "modal confusion".

When you play modal music there really isn't a choice of scales...just the right scale, or pivoting modes (which works in theory, but not always musically).

So to say "I have a favorite mode" really means all your songs would have the same harmony.

So, if you're one of those guys who plays in one Key and calls it "modes" there a huge world for you to explore in real modal music. So, if you're playing in C with: C, Am, F, and G and you're thinking...C Ionian, A Aeolian, F Lydian, G Mixolydian...you need to take a step back since that's JUST C Major and you don't need anymore, until the Key changes. But then again if all the new chords are from one Key, again there's no reason to think modes at all, just play in the new Key you moved to.

Maybe I'm wrong, but that might be the reason you keep moving back to Aeolian, besides the fact that the fingering probably suits you too. So, you may be playing a "fingering" you term as Aeolian, but are really playing in the Relative Major scale, or some other scale...because in reality that "fingering" really fits all the modes.

Yeah it's definitely the comfort and ease of moving my fingers in an Aeolian pattern. For some reason, it just comes naturally now to throw my pinky in on the B and e strings (more pentatonic). I feel like there's a lot of notes in the diatonic minor scale that don't sound right when playing over something. I understand that C Ionian covers all 4 chords, so long as C Major is the key. I use that approach more than changing scale form from chord to chord, because that would be even harder, and who wants to work harder when they don't have to? :D Kidding aside, what I've been doing is using any mode relative to the C Major (for that example at least) over the entire progression. I haven't gotten mentally quick enough to the point where i can quickly switch from G mixo to F Lydian, so i usually make one mode last for at least one chord change.

[gennation]

Yeah it's definitely the comfort and ease of moving my fingers in an Aeolian pattern. For some reason, it just comes naturally now to throw my pinky in on the B and e strings (more pentatonic). I feel like there's a lot of notes in the diatonic minor scale that don't sound right when playing over something. I understand that C Ionian covers all 4 chords, so long as C Major is the key. I use that approach more than changing scale form from chord to chord, because that would be even harder, and who wants to work harder when they don't have to? :D Kidding aside, what I've been doing is using any mode relative to the C Major (for that example at least) over the entire progression. I haven't gotten mentally quick enough to the point where i can quickly switch from G mixo to F Lydian, so i usually make one mode last for at least one chord change.

Well, since the "fingering" doesn't determine the name of the mode, try figuring out what mode you are really playing. Most of the time if you are playing a diatonic type progression you are really only in Major or Minor.

This is a tough one to grab onto for a lot of people because they think they need to "think" modes in order to "get to the next level". But really they need to understand modal music a bit more. It will really help, because those finger patterns have NOTHING to do with modes, err nothing to do with "mode names".

So, take one of the songs you're playing with your friends, spell out the chords...find what chord you start with, and what one you end with...find out which chords are in Key, and which ones aren't...and see if you're really playing Aeolian when you use that fingering.

The fingerings are great for memorizing Diatonic scales, but understanding Modes and using them are a completely different study.

You can experience modal playing by listening to a couple of classic modern modal tunes like So What, Footprints, and others. Also look up some Ravi Shankar or other traditional, even modern, music from the middle-east. Much of the "drone" type of music is Modal. This is also great music for modal pivoting or sequencing.

Once you play modal music for awhile it'll help you better understand Modes place in Western Music, it will probably be a much different view than you have today.

[MrDoty]

Probably one of the main reasons you find yourself "going back to Aeolian" is because you're playing "diatonic music" as opposed to "Modal Music". There's a BIG difference and it's one of the reason for "modal confusion".

When you play modal music there really isn't a choice of scales...just the right scale, or pivoting modes (which works in theory, but not always musically).

So to say "I have a favorite mode" really means all your songs would have the same harmony.

So, if you're one of those guys who plays in one Key and calls it "modes" there a huge world for you to explore in real modal music. So, if you're playing in C with: C, Am, F, and G and you're thinking...C Ionian, A Aeolian, F Lydian, G Mixolydian...you need to take a step back since that's JUST C Major and you don't need anymore, until the Key changes. But then again if all the new chords are from one Key, again there's no reason to think modes at all, just play in the new Key you moved to.

Maybe I'm wrong, but that might be the reason you keep moving back to Aeolian, besides the fact that the fingering probably suits you too. So, you may be playing a "fingering" you term as Aeolian, but are really playing in the Relative Major scale, or some other scale...because in reality that "fingering" really fits all the modes.


word

[Flyin' Brian]

I've always had a tough time remembering modes (age makes it worse). I usually think of scales and how they apply. For instance if I'm playing in A minor, I ask what the 4 chord is. If it's D9 or a variation of it, I think a G major scale, and also would use Am pentatonic, Bm pentatonic and Em pentatonic. If the 4 chord is Dm, like say "The Thrill Is Gone", I think of Am pentatonic, Dm pentatonic, C major and Fm melodic against the 5 chord.

Just my own weird way of thinking.

[tkager]

In a completely diatonic sense, I consider modes more of a compositional concept. You may write a song to emphasize a specific tonal center in relation to a given key... for example, you may write something that is tonally centered around the Lydian mode. In addition, you may also change the tonal center within the piece, while still staying in same relative Major key.

This aside, I would certainly agree, that modal theory, in a diatonic sense, is signifiantly different than something like Jazz modal theory. Granted, when playing diatonically, you really don't need to think about playing a given mode. On the other hand, in most cases, I don't believe that it is going to sound all that good, if you phrase a major scale over all of the chords in a progression. In this sense, whether or not you recognize it or not, to make it sound "right" you will probably still be employing modal phrasing, though certainly not in the Jazz sense of the word.

Tom

[A-Bone]

Great summation, Tom.

Modal jazz is good listening and learning music precisely because it allows you to confront the differences of true modal composition from standard diatonic major and minor compositions. When you listen closely, you will hear that the melodies do not sound quite (or at all) like more conventional diatonic music; the resolutions and melodies are often different, the tonality is not quite what you would expect. I suggested the Miles Davis recordings because they are not super arcane or "outside", while still allowing the listener/player to step into the world of modal playing and that component of melodic theory.

It is also valuable to play the modal intervals in a scalar sense to hear what the patterns sound like. It can be kind of off-putting at first because the Western ear is so accustomed to the "do re mi" pattern of diatonic major; but I have found that playing each of the modal scale patterns in the same tonal center, say "A" (playing the scales against a droning or resonating A string can help to hear the different sound and feel), can help to deepen the appreciation of the modal concepts. Play the scales slowly and listen for the overall feel of the modes. I have always found Locrian especially interesting to play with, but they all reveal something of the depth and possibilities lurking in the Western musical tradition.

Traditional, medieval (and older ancient) modal music is something that I confess I really do not understand at all.

[GivenToWail]

Again... thanks for everyone's input. The simplest way to state my goal is I'm trying to learn is what is acceptable to play lead while staying in key. A friend gave me a chart of all the finger patterns for the scales. He explained the rules of what scales can be used ie. for C Major: D Dorian, E Phrygian, F Lydian and so on. Maybe I'm throwing the word "mode" around too much and I'm not sure enough of what it truly means. Most of my lead playing sounds the same when I use pentatonic form only, so I've tried expanding to Diatonic, but there's a lot of notes that just sound dissonant over the rythm.

[GivenToWail]

Great summation, Tom.

Modal jazz is good listening and learning music precisely because it allows you to confront the differences of true modal composition from standard diatonic major and minor compositions. When you listen closely, you will hear that the melodies do not sound quite (or at all) like more conventional diatonic music; the resolutions and melodies are often different, the tonality is not quite what you would expect. I suggested the Miles Davis recordings because they are not super arcane or "outside", while still allowing the listener/player to step into the world of modal playing and that component of melodic theory.

It is also valuable to play the modal intervals in a scalar sense to hear what the patterns sound like. It can be kind of off-putting at first because the Western ear is so accustomed to the "do re mi" pattern of diatonic major; but I have found that playing each of the modal scale patterns in the same tonal center, say "A" (playing the scales against a droning or resonating A string can help to hear the different sound and feel), can help to deepen the appreciation of the modal concepts. Play the scales slowly and listen for the overall feel of the modes. I have always found Locrian especially interesting to play with, but they all reveal something of the depth and possibilities lurking in the Western musical tradition.

Traditional, medieval (and older ancient) modal music is something that I confess I really do not understand at all.


I think you're right in that I need to take a few steps back, learn the modes slowly and better w/o any music behind it. I've been trying to incorporate them before really practicing and understand them.

[gennation]

Again... thanks for everyone's input. The simplest way to state my goal is I'm trying to learn is what is acceptable to play lead while staying in key. A friend gave me a chart of all the finger patterns for the scales. He explained the rules of what scales can be used ie. for C Major: D Dorian, E Phrygian, F Lydian and so on. Maybe I'm throwing the word "mode" around too much and I'm not sure enough of what it truly means. Most of my lead playing sounds the same when I use pentatonic form only, so I've tried expanding to Diatonic, but there's a lot of notes that just sound dissonant over the rythm.

Those charts of finger charts/patterns with names over each one, and with these "special rules", is how probably 95% of us learned how to play them, and memorized them.

And we all learned they were for C Major, etc...but each pattern related to different scale names.

But, that's not 100% true. The fact is that all of them ARE C Major.

Try my tutorial on this stuff...I'm still working on Part II but what I have in Part I tries to break the Modes v/s Diatonic theory, as well as the Modes Names v/s the Patterns.

http://lessons.mikedodge.com/lessons/MusicTheory/Diatonic/DiatonicTOC.htm

Yes it's long, but don't skip through it. It's to help the player who gets Pentatonics down, then learns "modes" as "the next step in the process". But, the more they learn about Modes, the more they feel confused at times, and revert back to easy fingering.

Nothing bad about it, it's part of the growth but it also can seem harder to get get over the hump. Hopefully that tutorial will help a little.

[jakob]

Dorian right now..:)

[Dickie Fredericks]

Im gonna give a +1 on a few previous posts. I dont think in modes usually. I try to look at the piece of music and make some decisions.

A- / G / F?

Depends on the rythym. In some cases Id try to use all 12 notes. heheh

But usually Id be in C for the progression you describe. We have a tune that uses that exact progression on the CD and I stay with C for it.

However, I might use Ionian or Lydian over the G and F or whatever. I just relate it all back to keys I guess.

[gennation]

Im gonna give a +1 on a few previous posts. I dont think in modes usually. I try to look at the piece of music and make some decisions.

A- / G / F?

Depends on the rythym. In some cases Id try to use all 12 notes. heheh

But usually Id be in C for the progression you describe. We have a tune that uses that exact progression on the CD and I stay with C for it.

However, I might use Ionian or Lydian over the G and F or whatever. I just relate it all back to keys I guess.

If you're playing is similar to the Stairway or Watchtower you are using A Nat Minor. Sure if comes from the C Major scale, but (and again I'd have to hear the progression how you are playing it) I'm sure it resolves to Am, so this progression would be in "A Minor", not necessarily in "A Aeolian", but "A Minor". This isn't really a modal piece, it's just diatonic, so it's either Major or Minor, and since the heart of the progression is the Am chord, this would be in A Minor (or A Natural Minor).

You can use the A Natural Minor for the G and F chords too. No need to "think" modes here. Just the A Natural Minor scale.

[gennation]

I think a lot of people don't understand that you only play a mode over a ONE chord. This is a great way to start really using modes.

Most people also try and sprinkle modes over everything they do without any comprehension of Modal Music.

Here's an example...

As we have learned by 'reading', the Lydian modes is even MORE "brighter sounding" than the Major scale. This is classic modal confusion...listen to this minor sounding piece, ONE drone (E) and ONE mode, E Lydian. Listen how Minor this thing sounds...and it's E Lydian...

http://test.mikedodge.com/mvdmusic/MikeD1/elydian.mp3

Ok, now watch this vid using a E Major scale. Sounds pretty dark to me...but "guitar wise" I'm playing all the same Major scale you're playing...

http://lessons.mikedodge.com/lessons/IndSlide2/ExtraEmaj.htm

This is an example of Modal Music...one static tone with a "Mode". And, all the little bendy stuff almost help resolve each Interval into the notes of the mode. Now both of these never change the static tone but if it did I would find the next mode.

[tkager]

I think that this discussion has taken a life of its own and believe that we have (at least) two different concepts here: scale modes and modal music.

I don't know if the following concept is contrasting (or perhaps restating) what some others are saying, so let me try and be as specific as I can. I believe that you can play diatonically, yet employ modes. I don't believe, in the simple Stairway progression (without a drone), that one has to, or really should "just" play in A minor.

Let me explain my perspective:

Assume that someone plays a solo over the "Stairway" progression (I initially chose this progression because it was very simple, and had a disctinct tonal center). OK, let's assume that he or she technically stays in key... is that enough to be considered playing modes? I don't think so. From my perspective, the real test is whether the chordal accompanyment can be dropped. Can you still hear changes? If you can, I would say that they are certainly playing modes. Perhaps this is more of an issue of terminology and granted, this is playing in a somewhat constrained diatonic box. However, I believe that many players don't really conceptualize this.

Tom

[GivenToWail]

I think a lot of people don't understand that you only play a mode over a ONE chord. This is a great way to start really using modes.

Most people also try and sprinkle modes over everything they do without any comprehension of Modal Music.

Here's an example...

As we have learned by 'reading', the Lydian modes is even MORE "brighter sounding" than the Major scale. This is classic modal confusion...listen to this minor sounding piece, ONE drone (E) and ONE mode, E Lydian. Listen how Minor this thing sounds...and it's E Lydian...

http://test.mikedodge.com/mvdmusic/MikeD1/elydian.mp3

Ok, now watch this vid using a E Major scale. Sounds pretty dark to me...but "guitar wise" I'm playing all the same Major scale you're playing...

http://lessons.mikedodge.com/lessons/IndSlide2/ExtraEmaj.htm

This is an example of Modal Music...one static tone with a "Mode". And, all the little bendy stuff almost help resolve each Interval into the notes of the mode. Now both of these never change the static tone but if it did I would find the next mode.

To be honest, I think I just found exactly what I'm looking for on your first page after the Indian Slide video. That first page on Satch/Johnson/Vai is something i should work on before i get ahead of myself, and it will open up my sound quite a bit more. Up til now, I've been playing the pentatonic scales the same way every time because that's how I learned them. I didn't think of breaking them up and making different scales out of them. One question so i don't f**k this up...

Is there any rule other than using 2 notes per string? In other words, are there any limitations?

[GivenToWail]

I think that this discussion has taken a life of its own and believe that we have (at least) two different concepts here: scale modes and modal music.

I don't know if the following concept is contrasting (or perhaps restating) what some others are saying, so let me try and be as specific as I can. I believe that you can play diatonically, yet employ modes. I don't believe, in the simple Stairway progression (without a drone), that one has to, or really should "just" play in A minor.

Let me explain my perspective:

Assume that someone plays a solo over the "Stairway" progression (I initially chose this progression because it was very simple, and had a disctinct tonal center). OK, let's assume that he or she technically stays in key... is that enough to be considered playing modes? I don't think so. From my perspective, the real test is whether the chordal accompanyment can be dropped. Can you still hear changes? If you can, I would say that they are certainly playing modes. Perhaps this is more of an issue of terminology and granted, this is playing in a somewhat constrained diatonic box. However, I believe that many players don't really conceptualize this.

Tom

The issue was definitely with terminology on my part. Perhaps what i should have stated in the original post was...

"What are your favorite diatonic scales?"

I now have a much better understanding of the term "mode" than before, so even if some responses weren't exactly what I was asking, that was my fault but I did learn a lot from everyone's input. Thanks again... I think I know what I'm taking to the practice room now.

[tkager]

I understand what Mike is saying as well. In general, a purely diatonic piece of music will have the feel of its tonal center and a need to gravitate back to its tonal center. It is not considered "modal music." However, you can still respect the chord structure and even play to it.
The concepts that I was describing with regards to resolution were way oversimplified and general, but really included to illustrate a concept...

In terms of diatonic modes, I have been writing a lot around Lydian, Phrygian, mixolydian.

[Austinrocks]

This may sound stupid and if your anal about your terminology its not perfectly correct, but it helps in understanding modes.

Chords are Modes

Just like you have the I IV V chord your playing the Ionian, Lydian, Mixolydian modes, they occur naturally in music when you play a bass note or a chord.

Chords are modes, when you play a chord in a key you are playing a mode of that key, a basic premise in
chord theory is to create an extended chord in a key you use the modes to determine if the chord will work,
you kind of see this in the major and minor chords, it really shows up in the extended chords.
I chord, mode is Ionian, extended chords are maj7, 9, 11, 13 natural 11th
ii chord, mode is Dorian, extended chords are min7, min9, min11, min b13
iii chord, mode is Phrygian, extended chords are min7, min b9, min 11 with b9,min b13 b9 and natural 11
IV chord, mode is Lydian, extended chords are maj7, 9, #11, 13, 13 has a #11 in the chord
V chord, mode is Mixolydian, extended chords are 7, 9, 11, 13 natural 11
vi chord, mode is Aeolian, extended chords are min7, min9, min 11, min b13
vii chord, mode is Locrian, extended chords are min7 b5, min9 b5, min11 b5, min b13 b5.

as a simple expample of the chords and modes of the key of A, to make it a bit interesting.

Key of A has notes A B C# D E F# G#
chords and modes are
I chord is Amaj....... mode is A Ionion or A Major
ii chord is Bmin...... mode is B Dorian
iii chord is C#min.... mode is C# Phrygian
IV chord is Dmaj...... mode is D Lydian
V chord is Emaj....... mode is E Mixolydian
vi chord is F#min..... mode is F# Aeolian or F# Natural Minor
vii chord is G#dim.... mode is G# Locrian
You can play any and all of these modes
Chords are modes so you can follow the chord progression with the right modes that is how I play and
its very cool.
If you can not remember the modes the Pentatonics work, they avoid the conflicting notes of the modes,
A Major Pentatonic
B Minor Pentatonic
C# Minor Pentatonic
D Major Penatonic
E Major Penatonic
F# Minor Penatonic.
The Pentatonic does not work for the Locrian mode, the b5 however the Locrian scale is the Major scale
starting one note flat, so its really easy to remember. In this case an G# Locrian is the A Major Scale
starting on G#.

The diminished chord is confusing chord, its the Locrian mode chord, and people rarely play it and to really make it confusing there are several diminished chords, the formulas are
dim- 1 b3 b5
half diminished, usually written m7 b5, 1 b3 b5 b7
fully diminished, usually written dim7, 1 b3 b5 bb7
So a Cdim has C Eb Gb
Cm7 b5 has C Eb Gb Bb and is called a half diminished chord
Cdim7 has C Eb Gb A and is called a fully diminished chord

[gennation]

I don't mean to be a stickler or anything. I definitely agree that there is NOT ONLY one way to look at things. The more ways you can criss cross concepts, the more you learn about them and others things. It's an ongoing endeavor for some of us. That's why music has survive as long as it has.

The only reason I brought all this up was, there's a HUGE number of people that:

1. talk about "modes", but actually go no where near Modal Music.

2. that group ALL the modes into one big batch showing them together with no separation. Like Diatonically.

3. that relate "modes" to "finger patterns".

Getting passed #1, it will help separate #2 and #3 from being "Modes".

I don't see much talk about modal music and it's a VERY key point getting the modal confusion cleared up. It's those darn charts with names over them that starts it all.

[tkager]

Mike,

Sorry man.. I have to disagree with your first point. In doing some more research, I have come across many definitions for the term "modal music", but finding a universal definition seems next to impossible. Here is some of what I have found. Obviously I am paraphrasing - actually just trying to backfill some of the definitions that I have seen.

1) Compositions are more or less centered upon notes, not a chord structure. This one even argues that a modal progression should not have two chords used in succession within the same key:
http://www.outsideshore.com/school/music/almanac/html/Improvisation/Harmonic_Considerations/Modal_Improvisation.htm

2) Here is a definition, that seems to define it as, not having a particular key or tonal center, and resolving in an unpredictable fashion:
http://www.allmusic.com/cg/amg.dll?p=amg&sql=77:2613

3) I have also seen definitions of modal, whereby the piece of music is centered around a mode other than minor or major:
http://cnx.org/content/m11421/latest/

4) Some people define Ravi Shankar's Ragas as modal. He does not:
http://www.ravishankar.org/indian_music.html

I can understand the argument, that someone who doesn't listen to Modal Jazz, or something like that, really does not have a full appreciation for the application of modes. I would certainly agree. I could even understand someone saying that the initial progression (in A Minor) might not, dependent upon definition be modal, and further may not a good example. I would possibly agree as well (though I was trying to keep it simple). However, I can't agree with the contention that someone who doesn't listen to modal music shouldn't talk about modes. It seems a bit extreme, especially when there is some confusion as to what exactly modal music is. How are you defining it?

Tom

[gennation]

Mike,

Sorry man.. I have to disagree with your first point. In doing some more research, I have come across many definitions for the term "modal music", but finding a universal definition seems next to impossible. Here is some of what I have found. Obviously I am paraphrasing - actually just trying to backfill some of the definitions that I have seen.

1) Compositions are more or less centered upon notes, not a chord structure. This one even argues that a modal progression should not have two chords used in succession within the same key:
http://www.outsideshore.com/school/music/almanac/html/Improvisation/Harmonic_Considerations/Modal_Improvisation.htm

2) Here is a definition, that seems to define it as, not having a particular key or tonal center, and resolving in an unpredictable fashion:
http://www.allmusic.com/cg/amg.dll?p=amg&sql=77:2613

3) I have also seen definitions of modal, whereby the piece of music is centered around a mode other than minor or major:
http://cnx.org/content/m11421/latest/

4) Some people define Ravi Shankar's Ragas as modal. He does not:
http://www.ravishankar.org/indian_music.html

I can understand the argument, that someone who doesn't listen to Modal Jazz, or something like that, really does not have a full appreciation for the application of modes. I would certainly agree. I could even understand someone saying that the initial progression (in A Minor) might not, dependent upon definition be modal, and further may not a good example. I would possibly agree as well (though I was trying to keep it simple). However, I can't agree with the contention that someone who doesn't listen to modal music shouldn't talk about modes. It seems a bit extreme, especially when there is some confusion as to what exactly modal music is. How are you defining it?

Tom

Great links Tom! They pretty much explain quite a lot of it.

Personally I see modes as anything from (but not limited too):

1. a static drone (traditional music from India for example), strict fixed scales, ragas are definitely part of this, and Carnatic would be consider also since it's strict groups of notes. I think the Lydian and Major clips I posted fits that traditional bill to a good extent..one static drone, one scale (not Carnatic though).

2. progressions with longer, drawn out chords (early modal jazz), where one has a static back ground to play over, but the chords don't necessarily relate to each other Diatonically. It's has a "center" scale, but can resolve with in itself so to speak, IOW any chromaticism seems to find it's way home to the Mode/Tonic. And (this is important) when the chord/tonic changes, it's in a different Mode all together pretty much. So, each change is to a "I" chord. So, if you don't hit on the new "I" chord it will be obvious. Obviously this would be similar to the common early modal jazz tunes, So What, Footprints, Impressions, etc...

3. modern modal music (Stanley Clarke, Mclaughlin, Di Meola, etc...) quick progressions that change Keys often, but not too much diatonically within each Key. So, again each chord, or at least a small group of chord, fits a new "I". Also using the the last Key as a turnaround...but not using a V7, because a V7 doesn't always fit as a turnaround for Modal music. V7 fits (I'm sure there's an exception somewhere in the world) primarily Major and Minor music. I'm sure some of it could be considered a non-perfect type of cadence. But it could get to the last chord from anywhere almost.

Those are the basics.

In a way I consider a I-IV-V as being modal, sure the Root's of each chord are a I-IV-V from a Major scale of the first, and resolving, Root. But, the harmonies are not based out of the Major scale harmonies.

Each chord has Dominant harmonies. So, you can "think" of it as...

starting with a I7 chord, then another I7 chord a 4th above the first chord, then a I7 chord a 5th above the first chord. Hence the reason you can play a Mixolydian scale from each chord. Because generally modes are based on Tonics, when playing a Mixo scale for each chord, that's suggesting a move to each Tonic, or each new chord. In a way, that approach is very modal.

But yes, the Blues is special to where there's a number of ways to play over it, due to the Dominant harmonies. That's the "no one way to look at things" idea.

When playing something like a Am-G-F...the harmonies of each chord relate directly to each other. IOW, you don't really play ANY Minor scale for Am, or a straight Major scale for the G and the F. You play a scale that relates to all the chords, that directly contains the harmonies within the Key...of A Nat Min. Sure you can "think" your playing A Aeolian, G Mixo, and F Lydian if you want...but NONE of the notes have changed between those scales, it resolves to Am, it's an A Nat Min progression. Sure, some notes have heavier weights on the given chord...but they are all using the same notes. There's no reason to "change".

These are a few views I have. But, when someone gets those patterns on a sheet of paper with a name given to each one, and they say you can play a D Dorian scale, or try and E Phrygian scale over that C Major chord...that's where people try to make Modes fit everything they do. Not that it's completely wrong in one's quest, but a lot of times that where the confusion begins.