Mystery Amp

[allynmey]

Can anybody name this amp? Why does this cost over $6000????

http://i94.photobucket.com/albums/l92/allynmey/DSC08673.jpg

[Witek]

That blue sludge looks tasty, maybe it's some super expensive test sludge being made by the military that has the potential of enslaving the entire human race.... or maybe it's just goo. No idea.

[pepi]

Is that a bumble:jo

[TWreckXS]

That's the worst rats nest I've ever seen in an amp. At least Dumble knew how to goop properly and the Two Rock guys cover it with formica. Putting someones name to that would be an insult so I'll pass on that.

Can someone explain to me how the masking tape affects the tone?

[TBlewz]

Can someone explain to me how the masking tape affects the tone?


You don't have a roll of tone tape? Time to get with the program bud! :D

[andyland6]

what is it?!?!?

[allynmey]

Is that a bumble:jo

Nope! It has been accused of being a direct clone of one made by a major manufacturer.

[TWreckXS]

I just can't figure why he didn't use blue painter's tape. It must not be a blues amp.

[DAB]

My guess is that this is an older Bruno Super 100. Mine was gooped like that although it was a lot neater than this one. Sounded great though!!

[allynmey]

I really don't want to tell the name of the company. At first when this came across my bench with a bad relay? or wiring and I opened it up, I thought it was a hack job by some tech. I lifted an edge of the goop and saw the job underneath was of the same caliber as above. I told the customer I couldn't get to the section I needed to check for the problem discussed. Luckily the guy just bought it an could still return it. Some of you might say "but,...does it sound good? thats all that matters" Well, what happens when any repair costs hundreds of dollars to remove the goop to get to the part needing repair? Oh...I forgot to tell you that the amp came with a smashed in PT bell cover and no chassis grommet for the power transformer.

I won't release the name in case it didn't come from them like this and it wouldn't be right to damage a company's reputation due to something beyond their control. It does raise a point about some recent threads complaining about sub-standard work that is done by hobbyists and how they shouldn't be building amps for customers.

Food for thought!!!!

[52ftbuddha]

Omg that is horrible. Dull dusty looking solder fillets. Flux not removed. My favorite is the three pack of power resitors held with a zip tie. This could be used in a soldering class on how not to do it. How is this legal for sale.
rob

[Jeph]

Damn. Good to see people still take pride in their work :jo

[57special]

I think that amp was made for Samuel Bartholomew.

[michael.e]

Unless you had direct contact with this amp at the stage of origin, I find it highly irresponsible of you to even post pic's and get the speculating crew, many of which are new folks, posting ramble and catty opinion. I say that even if you post that you are not going to reveal the maker. You are going to get a ton of PM's and emails regarding the amp from people asking you to let them know who it is so they do not get an amp like that.


Nice way to get your name out there as well! :rolleyes:



Perhaps HC is a more suitable place for threads of this nature.


M.E.

[allynmey]

Michael.e, I guess when you start a thread warning people about fly by night amp builders without seeing or hearing their amps, it's a public service message. When somebody uses an actual amp with pictures it irresponsible. And one more thing. anyone who burns solder can see this amp was originally made this way. I was giving the builder the benefit of the doubt by not posting his company's name. I won't tell people in PM either.

This is the amp discussion forum right??? Can we discuss amps here? I'll tell you what is a public service announcement...maybe a few potential buyers of any companies amp might from this moment on ask to see the inside of the amp they are spending thousands on. People like Germino, Reinhardt, Marshall, Gabtone, Mojave, etc. etc. post gut shots on their websites because they are proud of their work. Some companies goop and attack people who post pics of their work for the reasons shown above.

Just for a little education, nothing is original or new in tube amplification....

Allynmey

[Steve Snider]

Michael.e, I guess when you start a thread warning people about fly by night amp builders without seeing or hearing their amps, it's a public service message. When somebody uses an actual amp with pictures it irresponsible. And one more thing. anyone who burns solder can see this amp was originally made this way. I was giving the builder the benefit of the doubt by not posting his company's name. I won't tell people in PM either.

This is the amp discussion forum right??? Can we discuss amps here? I'll tell you what is a public service announcement...maybe a few potential buyers of any companies amp might from this moment on ask to see the inside of the amp they are spending thousands on. People like Germino, Reinhardt, Marshall, Gabtone, Mojave, etc. etc. post gut shots on their websites because they are proud of their work. Some companies goop and attack people who post pics of their work for the reasons shown above.

Just for a little education, nothing is original or new in tube amplification....

Allynmey


So spill the beans- amp, model, new vs used etc. There are very few amps that cost 6K so why not just put the whole deal out there. No need for a mystery. If it is a 6K amp than it is a public service you are providing.

[lgehrig4]

Aside the fact that work like this is difficult to troubleshoot and repair, I kind of like when I see sloppy work by a builder who's amps are known for great tone. Almost makes you feel like the person is some sort of genius and is laser focused on just tone.

Hell, give me the parts and diagram and I can make a neat looking amp, but I couldn't create one from scratch.

Einstein wasn't exactly the neatest person either ;)

[lgehrig4]

So spill the beans- amp, model, new vs used etc. There are very few amps that cost 6K so why not just put the whole deal out there. No need for a mystery. If it is a 6K amp than it is a public service you are providing.


My gut tells me that GAB nailed it, but what do I know.

[52ftbuddha]

This is an issue of safety. These are products in the use of the public. That ckt layout is a hazard. I have been building and designing ckts for 20 years and if I did that kind of work for my employer people would die. This product should be revealed.
rob

[NitroLiq]

I'd be pissed if someone blew their nose in my amp like that. :D Isn't masking tape in an amp a firehazard? :crazyguy

[pureoldsound]

One question though aside from the point if it does or does not sounds great....If the amp had some type of problem who is going to service this? Is it fair to pay a substantial amount of money to have someone take all that mess out to change a $1.10 cap? Masking tape? What is up with that? It is the first amp that I've ever seen with masking tape.

6K wow, for now on I'll open every amp that I get if I see something like this is going back I don't want to deal with the hassle even if it sounds extraordinary....

[TheAmpNerd]

Unless you had direct contact with this amp at the stage of origin, I find it highly irresponsible of you to even post pic's and get the speculating crew, many of which are new folks, posting ramble and catty opinion. I say that even if you post that you are not going to reveal the maker. You are going to get a ton of PM's and emails regarding the amp from people asking you to let them know who it is so they do not get an amp like that.


Nice way to get your name out there as well! :rolleyes:



Perhaps HC is a more suitable place for threads of this nature.


M.E.

You've got to be kidding me. For $6000 I'd be pissed to open up an
amp and find it like that. But then again, I won't buy and amp unless
I know what is under the hood.

[michael.e]

Here we go again......

"Those that forget the past, are doomed to repeat it"



M.E.

[go7]

It`s a Blue Goo Deluxe:BEER Enjoy!

[SteveVHT]

This has to be the most useless thread ever posted at TGP.
To come in here and post a "Mystery Amp" picture, and not tell anyone what it is, you are doing the site a disservice.
I've seen pictures of Brunos that looked like that and it hasn't hurt the sales at all...Sometimes there are ratty prototypes etc.
You are awarded the most useless thread on the net award for 2007.
Thanks for not helping out.....

But then again....anyone paying over $6K for an amp....:rotflmao:rotflmao:rotflmaodeserves it....

[NitroLiq]

This has to be the most useless thread ever posted at TGP.
If I had a nickel for everytime someone said that here...:AOK

[allynmey]

This has to be the most useless thread ever posted at TGP.
To come in here and post a "Mystery Amp" picture, and not tell anyone what it is, you are doing the site a disservice.
I've seen pictures of Brunos that looked like that and it hasn't hurt the sales at all...Sometimes there are ratty prototypes etc.
You are awarded the most useless thread on the net award for 2007.
Thanks for not helping out.....

But then again....anyone paying over $6K for an amp....:rotflmao:rotflmao:rotflmaodeserves it....

Well Steve, I would say to people "know what you are buying". That would not pass any safety standards examinations. This is a company that sells amps all over the world from what I gather. I don't know how they could sell that in Europe or Canada with the rules they have for electronics. I didn't say that their amps are bad sounding, in fact, I think they sound good. Hopefully they have a lifetime warranty since nobody would want to have to go through that mess to fix a problem. How would you chase down an oscillation in that wiring job?

http://i94.photobucket.com/albums/l92/allynmey/DSC08669.jpg

Here is more of the wiring job to look at. Steve, where would you start?

Also if you try to fix it, you void whatever warranty they give. If you send it to them to fix, how much would they charge you to fix it? The boards are epoxied to the screws. After their warranty is over, you have a $6000+ toaster if it breaks! I just thought I would make people think about more than perceived mojo when spending their hard earned money on an amp. Ask to see inside the amp they want to buy. Most vendors would be proud to show you their workmanship!

[plexi67]

wonder what the warranty is on these amps? Or if they have a certified service center. No gromets? I guess they spent all the money on goop to afford the gromets. Wonder if that would pass any wiring code.

[52ftbuddha]

OMG part 2. that is just the most horrible thing ever. Allynmey you are doing a public service.
rob

[jspax7]

I just built a D'lyte, and it ain't pretty, (my sloppy work) but it sounds amazing!

As for the "Blue Goo", it looks like an extra-terrestrial couldn't control himself...

Tone is in the ears.

[n.j.]

Good lord. I though the first shot was bad. The second shot looks like a freeway interchange.

[plexi67]

""""Tone is in the ears"""

yeah, but if that amp has a problem, then the tone won't make it to your ears,and its going to take a bit of work to get the tone back.I guess if you can afford the 6k they say it cost, you wouldn't worry about what it would cost to fix it, or have it replaced.

[52ftbuddha]

a bit of hijack but it is so good to see many 18watt people over here.
rob

[John Hurtt]

Ok, so once again.....

What is it?

[MoRawk]

Unless you had direct contact with this amp at the stage of origin, I find it highly irresponsible of you to even post pic's and get the speculating crew, many of which are new folks, posting ramble and catty opinion. I say that even if you post that you are not going to reveal the maker. You are going to get a ton of PM's and emails regarding the amp from people asking you to let them know who it is so they do not get an amp like that.


Nice way to get your name out there as well! :rolleyes:



Perhaps HC is a more suitable place for threads of this nature.


M.E.

Geez...take a chill pill dood. He's just trying to make a point that people who buy expensive amps should take some time to pop the hood and inspect it first. He's not revealing anything about the builder and has said so if you read the previous posts. You're turning a thread about members vs. the amp to members vs. members. That's what belongs on HC.

[plexi67]

sometimes a public service means keeping one's mouth shut
;)

as for slagging other companies check this

http://ampgarage.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=2607


Ah another informative link. So you'd rather someone didn't speak out or show you what your getting for your hard earned money?
Is this a forum to dicuss amps?

[jspax7]

If I had a problem with an amp, I would go to the dealer first, then to the builder. Only an authorized factory service person would be allowed to poke around in my amp. (If it was under warranty)

My first thought if a tech told me it was a POS:

Let me see and hear one of yours.

[Mr. dB]

actually this is the gear page not the amp page
dont morph this place into some off the charts builders choice forum cause it aint



Interesting distinction...:rolleyes:

[MyVette67]

If we dont know what it is than how can anybody believe it's a high dollar amp?
This thread is useless without knowing the builder.... could be a homebuilt POS for we know. :horse

[michael.e]

If I have to be more literal........
HELLO!! HAVE WE NOT BEEN ON THIS MERRY GO ROUND BEFORE??? JUST A SHORT TIME AGO??? AND HOW DID THE STORY END???


So we have some [for lack of a better term] "unknown" tech who has not been around/contibuting here long, coming along and posting pic's of a goo'ed up amp from a builder of allegedly 6k amps.

Under the guise of a "public service".........give me a break



Are we going to be seeing a new infiltration of threads like this, from a bunch of wanna-be techs from the 18 watt forum, posting away around here on a more regular basis because their forum has now closed down?
All these guys that have been lurking here, that used to have a platform at 18 watt are now going to start throwing this crap up here?

And......
Crimony, talk about sheep mentality........


Congrat's err, threadstarter, whoever you are, you are now person no. 2 to make my "ignore" list after all these years. :AOK


I worry about you boys who take a look at a picture, read the text above it and then formulate these "golly, I don't wanna be taken by whoever THAT guy is......" ideas.

Fortunately, that worry fades quickly as far more important things in my day invade my thoughts.

M.E.

[JamesHealey]

personally I know nothing about amps, but i'd agree masking tape, blue goo and that wiring job is horrendous, i've done small courses on electronic assembly at college years ago and i'll tell u now Im neater than that.

And if you guys who have more experience know that this is unsafe and could endanger a human life, then your just as responsible for the first person it kills as the guy who made it, if you don't release the maker of this amp.

[MoRawk]

If I have to be more literal........
HELLO!! HAVE WE NOT BEEN ON THIS MERRY GO ROUND BEFORE??? JUST A SHORT TIME AGO??? AND HOW DID THE STORY END???


So we have some [for lack of a better term] "unknown" tech who has not been around/contibuting here long, coming along and posting pic's of a goo'ed up amp from a builder of allegedly 6k amps.

Under the guise of a "public service".........give me a break



Are we going to be seeing a new infiltration of threads like this, from a bunch of wanna-be techs from the 18 watt forum, posting away around here on a more regular basis because their forum has now closed down?
All these guys that have been lurking here, that used to have a platform at 18 watt are now going to start throwing this crap up here?

And......
Crimony, talk about sheep mentality........


Congrat's err, threadstarter, whoever you are, you are now person no. 2 to make my "ignore" list after all these years. :AOK


I worry about you boys who take a look at a picture, read the text above it and then formulate these "golly, I don't wanna be taken by whoever THAT guy is......" ideas.

Fortunately, that worry fades quickly as far more important things in my day invade my thoughts.

M.E.

Again, geez man. I don't think his point was to unmask a particular builder. Just inspect an amp completely before you buy. Doesn't matter if it's a $6k amp or $300 amp.

To begin with, Allymney isn't an unknown newbie. If you want to be specific, the top right corner of the posts show a join date of July 2005. And just because he hasn't spam posted to increase post count and rank doesn't mean he isn't a credible member. I recognize Allymney from a number of forums and one thing I can tell is he can build a nice amp and is very generous with his knowledge of amp building.

Secondly, I don't get this forum-gang territory mentality. The feeling I get from your post is that the TGP and 18watt are Bloods and Crips and you don't want the Crips in your hood hehe. I don't get the hostility towards the 18watt members. I think it's great that they can share their knowledge and opinions here. I'm sure many TGPers and myself included are very interested in the DIY/tech knowledge behind all the gear we use and discuss. I welcome the Crips in my hood. :BOUNCE

Anyways, just relax. Don't make it personal with everyone. It's just people discussing gear.

[hw2nw]

eh, i'd like to know. Hope we can find out who makes that "mystery amp" sometime.

[dunara]

So we have some [for lack of a better term] "unknown" tech who has not been around/contibuting here long, coming along and posting pic's of a goo'ed up amp from a builder of allegedly 6k amps.



Er, yes - your point is? It's a subject well worthy of comment (makes a refreshing change from "Let's hear it for my new Two Rock!") and this would appear to be an appropriate forum......

Allyn may not be known to you, sir but there are those of us for whom he needs no introduction.


Are we going to be seeing a new infiltration of threads like this, from a bunch of wanna-be techs from the 18 watt forum, posting away around here on a more regular basis because their forum has now closed down?



TGP should be so lucky:cool: - Might liven things up a bit. All we seem to get here is photographs of some dentist's collection of Komets and PRS's. Funny how some folks here get twitchy when there's some real content.....

Congrat's err, threadstarter, whoever you are, you are now person no. 2 to make my "ignore" list after all these years. :AOK

Please, Michael, make me no.3.

I worry about you boys who take a look at a picture, read the text above it and then formulate these "golly, I don't wanna be taken by whoever THAT guy is......" ideas.


I'd worry about anyone that didn't.......
You're getting rather worked up about this, Michael. Could it be that you know exactly what this amp is, having shelled out 6K of your own hard earned?

Colin

[BJF]

Originally Posted By allynmey

"Mystery Amp
Can anybody name this amp? Why does this cost over $6000????"

Hi

I can say I can guess what type of amp it is.

It would be bad form naming the amplifier presented in a context like this.

Why it would fetch over 6000USD is obvious and may have actually little to do what it looks like inside.
I think it is not nice questioning competitors pricing.

I also don't think it would be necessary to go into the inner workings of an amp to fix a malfunctioning relay or trace it for oscillation- sources of both should be easy to find anyway and there would be no reason why repair of either would be very expensive, while one might think the builder or manufacturer would be able to service it- oh and sometimes one may as a repairguy refer servicing to the orginator

If you would have asked what there could be to say about the construction of an unknown amp
leaving both naming the amplifier and commenting on what it retails at, I think I may have a different answer.

With the words of Bukka T Mönkkönen: " Not Impressed"

Regards
BJ

Affilliations
www.bjfelectronics.com
www.mpamp.com

[Scott Peterson]

Here's why some of the members here are upset; from the User Agreement that each of us agree to abide by every time they post here:

Attention Dealers and Manufacturers
You are invited to post and participate in any section of the Gear Page. You are free to answer any/all product/service questions in any section. It is against forum policy for manufacturers and/or dealers to start threads concerning your products/services outside of the Dealer and Manufacturer's Emporium. You are welcome to to promote your business there as well as selling your personal gear on TGP. In addition to the other Emporium rules, please adhere to the following:


If you're starting a thread (as opposed to replying to a query) that can be construed as promoting your business, it belongs in the Dealer/Manufacturers section.
If you're selling gear that was acquired in the course of doing business (i.e., "inventory"), it belongs in the Dealer/ Manufacturers section.
If you're selling personal gear, you are allowed to list it in the appropriate non-dealer section. In these cases it would be advisable to provide a disclosure that it's personal gear and NOT related to your business.
You may NOT post negative comments about potential competitors.
We've been down this road before when someone posted a pic similar to the pic in the first post on this thread with a supposed Bruno; that Mr. Bruno had to contact me about that wasn't a Bruno.

We do not want TGP to turn into some sort of battleground between amp builders/parts suppliers/small-time techs/big-time techs over supposed fraud and/or accusations.

Note that the thread starter here is a professional tech and owns at least a parts supply storefront on the Net. That qualifies him as a Manufacturer here on TGP. His post might be indeed a PSA; but the innuendo and slight of hand showing us horrible work inside an amp and teasing us with "...$6,000 amp" and then the following comments about dentist's PRS and such from other folks that tend to follow these sorts of threads around are what gets folks goats.

TGP will not be used to tear down small companies. It's that simple. If that's your goal, you won't be here.

Have your proof and show your hand. If not, don't bring your half-truths here to destroy competitor's work. How do we know, for instance that the thread starter didn't 'craft' that amp and/or pic just for the sake of creating controversy? We don't. And there's the rub. Did he? Probably not; but who knows? (In case you miss this, I am not accusing the thread starter of doing that, just pointing out the obvious that with all the innuendo and 'who could it be?' BS; this could be interpreted any damn way anyone wants it to be). The thread is BS, my thought about the thread starters is made up entirely and this sort of thing isn't adding to the community here in any way, shape or form.

The truth is that this is no more a PSA than it is an attempt to create mis-information and get folks worked up over..... what? Crappy insides of some unknown amp.

This isn't anything more than a tempest in a teapot over some unknown picture proposed to be some exclusive builder.

Either do a real PSA or STFU. How about that?

[dunara]

Scott
Had Allyn named the amp then he would have been in contravention of your rules. By not naming it, he's stayed 'onside'. I suspect you would have closed the thread by now if he had actually broken the rules. The point he's making is a valid one; ie that one can spend a truckload of money on an amp and not necessarily get the kind of workmanship one might expect. Caveat emptor. He left the identity of the amp for us all to figure out to protect your arse, Scott. Think 18watt and Weber. Even telling the truth was no protection against Ted's legal stormtroopers....
Allyn might fall within your definition of a manufacturer, but he's not a competitor with this company, nor has he any axe to grind with them. He was simply shocked when this landed on his repair bench, and this is an obvious place to share that astonishment.
We're all invited to 'ooh' and 'aah' at the latest shiny Splawn or Roccaforte or whatever; pardon my mixed metaphor, but it seems you've no stomach for the sight of a sacred cow with its pants down. Surely you can't credibly have one without the other?

Regards, Colin

BTW, the amp discussed in this thread is not one of the above!

[shallbe]

Thanks for the public service!

I've learned that someone charges around $6000 for an amp. I've learned that someone built an amp that looks pretty crappy on the inside around 2005, and it has problems. I've learned that some people sell amps all around the world. I've also learned we should all know what is inside our amps. I now know what is inside this mystery amp, but it will remain a mystery.

All this specific and helpful information came from an amp tech.

It reminds me of a long joke, where the puchline is never told.

[dunara]

Steve
As I've said already, had the amp been named, the post would have been nuked instantly for reasons descibed above by Scott. I can understand your frustration with this thread......
Colin

[scottl]

I too vouch for Allyn... Great dude and totally on the up and up. No axe grinding. This amp from what I have learned is indeed original and was merely at Allyn's for service.

Not BS IMO. That is the worst crap workmanship I have seen. And my protomods are rats nests that look like Hiwatts in comparison!!

Look at the the craftsmanship of Bludotone, Carol-Ann, or Glaswerks for less than 1/2 the price. Shame on the builder.....

(I guess that means that this is a Dumble style amp w/built in Dlator. Clearly not a Fuchs (PCB), Two Rock (formica board), or Skrdystrup (PCB). )

[Scott Peterson]

Scott
Had Allyn named the amp then he would have been in contravention of your rules. By not naming it, he's stayed 'onside'. I suspect you would have closed the thread by now if he had actually broken the rules. The point he's making is a valid one; ie that one can spend a truckload of money on an amp and not necessarily get the kind of workmanship one might expect. Caveat emptor. He left the identity of the amp for us all to figure out to protect your arse, Scott. Think 18watt and Weber. Even telling the truth was no protection against Ted's legal stormtroopers....
Allyn might fall within your definition of a manufacturer, but he's not a competitor with this company, nor has he any axe to grind with them. He was simply shocked when this landed on his repair bench, and this is an obvious place to share that astonishment.
We're all invited to 'ooh' and 'aah' at the latest shiny Splawn or Roccaforte or whatever; pardon my mixed metaphor, but it seems you've no stomach for the sight of a sacred cow with its pants down. Surely you can't credibly have one without the other?

Regards, Colin

BTW, the amp discussed in this thread is not one of the above!

Colin,

Well, you certainly seem to know what the hell is going on. No one here does.

You've hit my point, how do I - or anyone - know if he is talking about a competitor if he doesn't name the builder? And if he does, well then, it does in fact go against the rules here.

So, and I'll be direct, why on earth make the post/thread in the first place?

Don't condescend to me. I am no tech, never said I was, never wanted to be. That doesn't make you - or any other tech - any smarter than me. I see goop over parts, I know you can't fix that amp. Don't need to be a tech to know that.

This is more a PSA than I am an amp builder. It's creating a mess for the sake of doing so. You seem to know who the supposed builder is. So do the guys from the the small/hobby/builder crowd. Most TGP members do not. And that's the rub.

Post the pic, explain how this is bad amp building and explain why. Don't get into the 'guess this amp' by starting off with the '...it's a $6000 amp' crap. That isn't needed, only leads to speculation and isn't good for anyone.

[dunara]

Scott
This is the flipside of the 'boutique' amp business, and you're evidently not too comfortable with it. What's the point of celebrating the high quality of fabulous hand built pieces of equipment if we can't have a laugh at the crap ones? Revealing the fact that this is a very expensive amp is what makes this thread interesting! No one except Michael e has used the term 'public service announcement' or 'PSA'. It couldn't be that without revealing the make of the wretched item, and we've already been down that road.
If all we're going to do here is celebrate the quality/quantity of equipment that can be bought on a real estate lawyer's salary, this corner of TGP will end up like the Harmony Central review page with pictures. And I'm guessing you don't want that......
I do understand and respect what you're saying, Scott and I'm not aware of any condescension on my part. You don't like this thread - that much is obvious - but nobody's broken the rules here.
Regards, Colin

[StompBoxBlues]

For myself, I went back and forth on this reading the whole thread.
Scott summed it up nicely I think "Post the pic, explain how this is bad amp building and explain why. Don't get into the 'guess this amp' by starting off with the '...it's a $6000 amp' crap. That isn't needed, only leads to speculation and isn't good for anyone."

I have no clue, nor am I interested really in who built the amp. It did give me a shock headsup (and the only disagreement I have with Scotts' post...I DO care, or better said, I wouldn't have thought an amp going for over 5000 would look like this on the inside, so it is a wake up call, that if price wasn't named, I would have assumed a small builder with no real following) and though I think it was silly to have a "guess who" part to the thread, I agree totally...discuss what is wrong with it, how it impacts servicing, etc.

IF I ever bought that expensive an amp, I might ask for photos of the inside first, after seeing this. Or I might tend to go for amp makers that display photos of the workmanship on their sites.

So there was some good that came out of it.

Could have lost the "guess the maker" aspect though.

[Scott Peterson]

Scott
This is the flipside of the 'boutique' amp business, and you're evidently not too comfortable with it. What's the point of celebrating the high quality of fabulous hand built pieces of equipment if we can't have a laugh at the crap ones? Revealing the fact that this is a very expensive amp is what makes this thread interesting! No one except Michael e has used the term 'public service announcement' or 'PSA'. It couldn't be that without revealing the make of the wretched item, and we've already been down that road.
If all we're going to do here is celebrate the quality/quantity of equipment that can be bought on a real estate lawyer's salary, this corner of TGP will end up like the Harmony Central review page with pictures. And I'm guessing you don't want that......
I do understand and respect what you're saying, Scott and I'm not aware of any condescension on my part. You don't like this thread - that much is obvious - but nobody's broken the rules here.
Regards, Colin

Colin,

I really don't have time for this sort of thing today.

Here's the condescension: TGP should be so lucky:cool: - Might liven things up a bit. All we seem to get here is photographs of some dentist's collection of Komets and PRS's. Funny how some folks here get twitchy when there's some real content.....


You are not stupid. I am not stupid. Don't preach to me about what I want TGP to become; that isn't up to me.

What is 'interesting' to you is against the rules here. Simple as that. We have a standard of not allowing builders rip on other builders here; if it doesn't fit your definition of interesting, then you are more than welcome to start your own forum and make it as interesting as you deem fit.

When you are on TGP, you agree to follow the rules here. It's a privately owned board. Simple as that.

Post crappy work and call it that. But don't get into this speculation crap; it does no one any good. Notice the guys all comfy and back slapping each other on this thread all KNOW the thread starter and who the crappy amp pic came from.

Notice the guys that are questioning it and rubbed the wrong way don't.

Draw your own conclusions.

And note that perhaps I was also not agreeing with Michael A on some of his chosen syntax either. There is a lot less of 'us vs. them' than you suppose here.

[plexi67]

actually this is the gear page not the amp page
dont morph this place into some off the charts builders choice forum cause it aint

and my link is what it is... a link


Ah, thanks for letting me know where i am.
Gear Page [Amps and cabs section]
So nothing negative can be said of amps in here. All you can say is look at that cab, how nice it looks,and how great it sounds.
Oh Oh.. i see it now, Brew Beck, you always post negative when Allyn posts something.. but i see thats ok for you or Michael E. I didn't see that part in the rules i read.

As for the ""its best to keep your mouth shut" public service thing.
If you look through history,you can see many things like 3 mile island, to the space shuttle, where they knew they had problems, but just wouldn't listen. So they turned there heads or kept their mouths shut.
Or maybe next time your children are in a car with you, you might thank someone for pointing out manufacture defects on brakes ,or fire hazards. But yeah, best keep your mouth shut is a good way to sweep crap under a rug. You might hide it, but it still smells bad.

[dunara]

Plexi67 wrote
All you can say is look at that cab, how nice it looks,and how great it sounds.

That would appear to be the situation, my friend....

[Scott Peterson]

Often, it isn't what you say, but how you say it.

That seems lost on the 'look at this mystery rat's nest' guys here.

Come on. Play this straight or don't play. It's just that simple.

[SouthernVintage]

Well I would just like to mention that I played my Carr Mercury all weekend and realize how happy I am with it and again would like to Thank the nice people here at TGP for taking the time to advise me...

[SW33THAND5]

on a side note...


i bet that the amp builder doesn't let the outside cabinet and tolex look as messy as the inside :)



btw, i as an adult. i am able to take the thread for what it is. i appreciate it. actually, if he were to post the name of the builder...said builder should not feel spited. his/ her work speaks for itself. if a builder is ashamed for pics of their work to be shown? then they have control to fix that, don't they. it just kinda is what it is...good or bad. the original poster didn't build that crap (and that is what that is...regardless of how it sounds) he just posted the pictures. the eventual servicing of the amp it a very real concern. ALL TUBE AMPS WILL REQUIRE EVENTUAL SERVICING. crazy assed amp. i would be madder than hell if i bought that and then saw that mess.


my .02 :)

[dunara]

Sweethands - I couldn't have put it better:BEER

Nevertheless, if the amp had been named, the thread would have been nuked......

[allynmey]

I see the thread has taken it's usual turn. I am not a commercial builder. I build and repair amps and the amp presented here in no shape or form is a competitor of mine. Rather, the company is very big and this is one of their production models. This is the second amp made by this company that has come across my bench in this condition. It is not a clone. I presented these pictures out of exasperation that a company would sell such workmanship. The name was hidden to protect TGP from the companies threats! That is what Happened to 18watt.com and other forums.
I have been posting here since July 2005 and am not a newbie. I try to post when I have something to add instead of just worrying about my post count.

I don't know why some of the members feel it necessary to follow my threads and bash me (right, chimeboss?)...rules of the road I guess but, I'm a big boy.

Scott wanted to hear facts.....
1. This is a production Model
2. It did come to me for repair (not pics on the internet)
3. The amp retails for over $6000.00
4. It is a fire hazard (wires through steel holes with no grommets, masking tape etc.)
5. The amp is expoxied together (look at the pics) making repair impossible for all but the simplest repairs.

I hope all people look in any amp they purchase to check for things like this. You might have noticed I mentioned people who post pics of their work and are proud of their workmanship. None of them were me! So their is no competition bashing going on here. I was just horrified at what came to my bench and wanted to let people know what to look out for when spending their hard earned mony...nothing more.

Allyn

P.S. I appreciate the kind words from some of the guys here.

[Jon Silberman]

Einstein wasn't exactly the neatest person either ;)
No, but his final equations were.

[allynmey]

No, but his final equations were.

:BEER

[Jon Silberman]

geez man. I don't think his point was to unmask a particular builder. Just inspect an amp completely before you buy. Doesn't matter if it's a $6k amp or $300 amp.
Bingo. And this IS a public service message.

[shallbe]

I don't know who it is. There were enough clues given for me to speculate who it may be, but that is all it would be--speculation. If this is a Dumble-type amp, it makes me all the more glad I've not chased that sound. I've often thought selling a new and improved Dumble-type is like shooting fish in a barrel.

I know we all love good sound, but dependability is HUGE for me. I want to know my amp is built well and can be serviced easily and quickly.

[Jon Silberman]

All right, I made it through to the end of the thread. Here's my final observation: while the originator, as some have pointed out, could have phrased his opening post differently, a picture's worth a thousand words and the two in this thread are scary. If the poster of 'em photoshopped 'em, that would be unethical but if they are real pics of what he saw under the hood, that's reality, my friends.

P.S. To sooth our souls, we take this brief digression to show you an alternate reality from someone who's not afraid to have his work identified by name on a public forum.


http://pic20.picturetrail.com/VOL1600/682310/3467154/42568886.jpg

Now back to your regularly-scheduled programming ...

[SW33THAND5]

Bingo. And this IS a public service message.




although i do not agree with a lot of the moderation here. i always bow to their judgement because. its NOT a 'public forum.' its a privately owned forum that allows the public to post under their private rules. once again, i thought that there was not anything wrong with the thread either. buts it is up to the powers that be to do as they wish with their forum.:BEER

[Jon Silberman]

Agree completely. If Scott elects to nuke this thread, he'll get no argument from me. That Scott hasn't yet, even after posting his concerns, suggests, does it not, that while he's not thrilled with how this was handled he deems it "legal."

[MikeyG]

Whoever the builder may be, line me up 5-6 of that same model, over a period of construction dates. If they all look the same, then the builder has a problem.

There was a similar clusterf$&k about a Two Rock that circulated the net, years ago. Same as this thread. We don't know what happened to that particular Two Rock, but it's clear that Two Rock doesn't build with that type of quality (or lack thereof).

Dangling the $6K carrot out there was a thinly-veiled slag on the builder. Come on, the $6K space is small, and within that small space, I can only think of one that that often gets slagged for build quality. So it may not have been evident to everyone, but I had no misconceptions about the 'mystery' builder.

There may be a pattern of bad design/quality issues. But this one photo doesn't prove that. All you're doing is opening up TGP for legal issues.

All of your info may be true. But the form is VERY BAD, VERY BAD, IMO.

[pureoldsound]

I thought it was informative, sometimes we take things for granted and just trust on the popularity of X builder without asking more questions or even inspecting what you are getting...This is a wake up call to always inspect what you are getting even if you are buying direct so there will be no surprises afterwards and don't lay your head on the pillow just because X builder has a great reputation...

From the looks of it seems like this might be a second hand amp, it raise the question what happens after the warranty expires, who is going to take care of me when things go wrong…evidently who ever owns this amp is on for some $$$ for repairs, and from the description of a relay which might cost $3, it seems like the repair is going to cost fairly more than a couple of hundreds for a very inexpensive component.

I see no harm on the post and people are just making this personal. There has been no mention or attacks of any builder or model by the originator of the thread, merely speculations and opinions by other members ….It is awesome to see all those beautiful pics of great clean work that no one seems to complaint about it is also great to see the bad and ugly side when this go wrong and what to look for…I learned something about this I will be extra careful next time I pickup an used or new amp from any builder….

[SW33THAND5]

Whoever the builder may be, line me up 5-6 of that same model, over a period of construction dates. If they all look the same, then the builder has a problem.




he did say that it was the second amp from the same builder that he has personally inspected with similar build. that sounds less than isolated. it is inconsistent at the very least

[dunara]

It is awesome to see all those beautiful pics of great clean work that no one seems to complain about it is also great to see the bad and ugly side when this go wrong and what to look for


Exactly :BEER

[MyVette67]

I see the thread has taken it's usual turn.
Well, with an opening statement such as this what did you expect?

Can anybody name this amp? Why does this cost over $6000????



I read it just as it was written, somewhat of a challenge to guess who's big dollar work it is.
And many have tried to do just that.

[rhinson]

Allyn never said it was a Bruno. But if it were, it would be a S100 not a CT45. Fwiw, the amp the OT posted was 100% production. Not a counterfeit.

yes correct. the other amp is obviously a much more complicated amp and more difficult to build with respect to the circuit. it's not the relatively simple blackface fender circuit (sans trem) that the cowtipper is.
rh

[RMcFarland]

Super 100. Look at the second pic. It has the same rear layout, unless someone is cloning Bruno's now.

[lastwinj]

man, that is some ugly wiring. i have seen worse, that sounded great, but it sure didnt cost 6k.

no clue who the builder is, but i would be embarrassed to have anyone see that.

[MoRawk]

Seriously...let's just try and edit out any mention of the builder that people are speculating at, even if it is to defend him because just the mention of the name connects that product to this thread. Casual readers will wonder why said builder needs to be defended and that's where more speculation will occur. Let's just keep calling it the mystery amp. Even if you're sure you know what it is.

[RMcFarland]

Why exactly?

[teleamp]

scottl[/b] http://www.thegearpage.net/board/images/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://www.thegearpage.net/board/showthread.php?p=2513607#post2513607)
Allyn never said it was a Bruno. But if it were, it would be a S100 not a CT45. Fwiw, the amp the OT posted was 100% production. Not a counterfeit.

As my first sentance states, I posted the pic of the CT-45 to show similar construction behaviors.

I did not say it was a CT- 45.

Mike

[MoRawk]

Why exactly?

Because I like TGP. And I'd have too much free time on my hand if TGP were to shut down because of legal problems directed at it by the builder due to allowing slander/libel to proliferate on the site. I'm all for public service announcements and looking out for the community, but if TGP gets shut down, there is no community.

[RMcFarland]

I don't think this would hold up in any court as libel. He is truthfully representing a manufactures handy work, with a photo no less.

I am easy going though, and understand if someone wants to remove my post. I was just answering th original posters question.

$6000 large?????? nawwww

[Distortion]

I don't think this would hold up in any court as libel. He is truthfully representing a manufactures handy work, with a photo no less.


In my opinion it is not a question regarding legal merit.
It is more a question of what a major pain in the ass any such legal action against the TGP would be.


I know Allyn and consider him a friend and one of the best amp builders I know.
I am confident he started this thread to warn folks than sometimes you should look underneath the hood before spending your lunch money on any amp.

[voodoosound]

I currently own 2 Bruno Super 100s and have had in my possesion over the years about 8. None of Tonys work was subpar.

Regardless for me peformance is the key. I could care less whats under the hood as long as my performance is there.

[Smokin Tone]

I currently own 2 Bruno Super 100s and have had in my possesion over the years about 8. None of Tonys work was subpar.

Regardless for me peformance is the key. I could care less whats under the hood as long as my performance is there.

Would you care to post a couple of gut shots?

[voodoosound]

Yes I would care. I don't do gutshots of anything I have. Email Tony I am sure he would be happy to share his work.

By the way I am sure some of you may have seen Dumbles work before. That amp posted looks more like one of the Dumbles I had owned rather than any type of clone I have.

[John Phillips]

Regardless for me peformance is the key. I could care less whats under the hood as long as my performance is there.It's all very well for a musician not to care about the technical aspects of an amp as long as it sounds good, but what if it -

- breaks in a way which makes it extremely difficult to fix, perhaps in a situation (eg on tour) where shipping it back to the maker isn't an option? Or very expensive if it's out of warranty?

- contains safety hazards which mean it could fail in a way which could cause a shock or a fire? How would you feel if it injured or killed you or someone else, directly or indirectly?

It makes no difference if it's a production model, a one-off or even a mod or repair - it should not be sold or returned to a customer like that, period. The workmanship in that amp is unacceptable regardless of how good it sounds. The two things are not at all mutually exclusive - you can have your great sound with proper build quality... why can some people here not understand this? Good tone does not justify or excuse bad workmanship.

I would not even work on an amp if I opened it and saw that - not without being paid to go through the whole thing and fix all the problems, as well as whatever stopped it working.

It's not a real production amp BTW, even if it's one of a number of the same spec - it's made by hand in non-factory conditions. It would certainly never pass safety regulations in Europe at least and so could not legally be sold here anyway.

[pureoldsound]

I currently own 2 Bruno Super 100s and have had in my possesion over the years about 8. None of Tonys work was subpar.

Regardless for me peformance is the key. I could care less whats under the hood as long as my performance is there.

Perfectly understandable, and no one has mentioned names...It is not about any X builder or if the amp sounds good or not...The thread is pointed out to workmanship, future problems that may be expensive to fix and most important hazard material used like masking tape... I got the message crystal clear; because something is high priced does not necessarily means high built quality and technique. Ask questions, ask for lots of pictures and if you see something like this take in count what would happen in the future if the amp ever needs service like every 10-15yrs cap replacement which could cost about $60 or so worth of labor and $10 on parts...not $500 worth of labor because you had to de-goop an amp and be extra careful not to damage anything...

[SW33THAND5]

Yes I would care. I don't do gutshots of anything I have.


strange policy. i can't imagine why on earth you wouldn't? :Spank

[voodoosound]

Your post is exactly why this is so suspect. Nobody wants a lawsuit for faulty workmanship "especially" someone that has a great reputation to begin with.

The funny thing is almost everyone around here thinks the goo that was apllied to HADs amps was to hide the circuit. It was actually so when it got bounced around on tour that crap would keep components from moving around. At least thats what was told to me when I purchased my first one in 85.

Anyway, to much specualtion regarding this topic. What if? is just that. I have seen some old fenders that look like a bomb went off in them yet they are still working problem free after 35+ years.

I think there are a ton of hidden agendas going on within this thread. Seems right up there with the TW cloning dicussion we had a while back.

By the way, I have to date about 6 Clone type amps with this circuit. Two Rocks, Skrydstrup, and a couple others. I have had zero problems with any of them and they all see their fair share of use.

[TheAmpNerd]

Added bonus if the blue goo is silicon....

It migrates! It will migrate into everything electric in the house,
site, facility, etc.

That wasn't my word, but one from one of the STRANGE folks
who have PhD's at WE/Bell labs.

Oh yeah, the very same folks who gave us most of these tube
circuits to begin with.

[allynmey]

all good points...for and against. I merely want to make people aware of what they are buying. This is very important to the gigging musician who needs reliabilty over everything else. There are NO other motives.

There are a lot of great amps out there that are a little messy but, will last many years and are easily repaired. This is one example of one that is not. I returned the amp to the owner untouched. He is returning it for a full refund to the store he purchased from. He had no idea that it looked like that in there and he was horrified.

There is no need to mention the builders name since now everyone who has read this thread might ask questions and look more closely what they are getting when they plunk their hard earned money down.:AOK

[Tread]

:munch

[voodoosound]

I have but one question. Why would someone buy an amp from a music store, have the amp fail on them and then take it to a repair man? Only to then have his repair man tell him to get his money back because it is shody workmanship? It doesnt make any sense. The first place you would take it is the authorized dealer or the builder. Not a repair man. Doesn't sound like a logical train of thought.

If you bought a new car and it broke down on you, you take it to the dealer or contact the manufacturer itself. You do not take it to Jiffy Lube.

[TheAmpNerd]

Under the guise of a "public service".........give me a break

from a bunch of wanna-be techs from the 18 watt forum, posting away around here on a more regular basis because their forum has now closed down?

M.E.

Well M.e. if you ever leave your bedroom and have to play that thing
and anything ever happens, you are up a creek and with out a paddle.

There is NO EXCUSE for this ignorance.

+ however many of what John said.

[allynmey]

I have but one question. Why would someone buy an amp from a music store, have the amp fail on them and then take it to a repair man? Only to then have his repair man tell him to get his money back because it is shody workmanship? It doesnt make any sense. The first place you would take it is the authorized dealer or the builder. Not a repair man. Doesn't sound like a logical train of thought.

If you bought a new car and it broke down on you, you take it to the dealer or contact the manufacturer itself. You do not take it to Jiffy Lube.

Voodoo, he bought the amp used but, in good shape (on the outside). The store has a 30 return policy. He had it for a few days and a switch stopped working. He brought it to me to look at because if it were a major repair, he would return the amp. Back it goes. And no...Voodoo, I am not building him an amp. No axe to grind here. In fact, he just found another amp to buy....a Two Rock. I'm sure he will bring it to me to look at then too.
:horse

[voodoosound]

Do you build amps Allynmey?

[andyland6]

Added bonus if the blue goo is silicon....

It migrates! It will migrate into everything electric in the house,
site, facility, etc.

That wasn't my word, but one from one of the STRANGE folks
who have PhD's at WE/Bell labs.

Oh yeah, the very same folks who gave us most of these tube
circuits to begin with.



WOW...cool.

[John Phillips]

I have but one question. Why would someone buy an amp from a music store, have the amp fail on them and then take it to a repair man? Only to then have his repair man tell him to get his money back because it is shody workmanship? It doesnt make any sense. The first place you would take it is the authorized dealer or the builder. Not a repair man. Doesn't sound like a logical train of thought.

If you bought a new car and it broke down on you, you take it to the dealer or contact the manufacturer itself. You do not take it to Jiffy Lube.
Maybe because you're a long way from the dealer and have a local tech who can do the job on the spot and much quicker. Or because you don't trust the dealer's repairman - they're not all great, even among 'authorized' dealers - and know a better one.

It happens quite often - I usually recommend to the customer that the amp goes back to the dealer if it's under warranty, but sometimes they genuinely would prefer to spend their own money to have it fixed quickly and right, than slowly and badly or not properly at all. (One large dealer near me is notorious for slow repairs and things that come back with the same faults, BTW.)

FWIW, before you ask, no I don't build amps, I only repair them - but I know very well what constitutes good, safe, reliable workmanship and what doesn't. Do car mechanics build cars?

[allynmey]

Do you build amps Allynmey?

Yes. That seems to be common knowledge here. I also repair them.
Your cross-examination sir.......

[lgehrig4]

No, but his final equations were.

I wasn't defending this particular amp. Just referring to the fact that I don't necessarily care if the wiring is neat. An amp can still look like a rats nest and still be of high quality, though obviously not in this case.

[voodoosound]

No cross. I rest. check your pm.

[Fuchsaudio]

The first place you would take it is the authorized dealer or the builder. Not a repair man. Doesn't sound like a logical train of thought.

What if the original builder doesn't want to know you unless you're the original owner ? Let's just suppose....

[voodoosound]

There is only one builder I know of like that and I think its safe for everyone to say this is not his amp. On the flip side of that I buy very few amps new lets say maybe 4 over my lifetime. I own many custom amps and everyone has gone back to its original builder for tweaks, repairs, or service. A confident builder stands behind his product with a lifetime gurantee or at least a limited lifetime.

[John Phillips]

I wasn't defending this particular amp. Just referring to the fact that I don't necessarily care if the wiring is neat. An amp can still look like a rats nest and still be of high quality, though obviously not in this case.
Exactly, this is something else often confused. Neatness by itself is not important for safety or reliability - unless for example a wire touches a component which might get hot enough to melt the insulation either under normal conditions or during something like a tube failure. You can easily have a very well-made amp which is quite untidy in terms of wiring dress or component placement, as long as everything is mounted properly and nothing is touching anything it shouldn't be. Criticising an amp for poor workmanship isn't just picking petty arguments about whether the wires are straight, it's more about seeing things which are known poor practice for reliability or safety reasons.

Many older Fender amps (for example) are fairly untidy, but are still extremely well-built.

It's also actually possible to have an amp which appears neatly laid-out and uses high-quality components but where some of them are not mounted properly and could come adrift given enough vibration or shock. I've seen a few of these too...

[NitroLiq]

There is only one builder I know of like that and I think its safe for everyone to say this is not his amp. On the flip side of that I buy very few amps new lets say maybe 4 over my lifetime. I own many custom amps and everyone has gone back to its original builder for tweaks, repairs, or service. A confident builder stands behind his product with a lifetime gurantee or at least a limited lifetime.
Well, there are quite a few builders out there as well as suppliers, some more well-known than others. There are those who build up a rep for customer support and backing up their product and there are a few who don't and would rather you didn't bug them. Unfortunate, but true. Andy brings up a completely valid point.

[MBreinin]

6k? That is a pretty specific amount. I am going to guess...it is a Mad Professor. Personally, I never open up an amp to admire its internals. If it sounds good, it sounds good.

Mike

[voodoosound]

I have not come across any of those builders and frankly at the prices these things go for these days I would be shocked. I own about 30-35 high end amps(as there called) all different builders and everyone stands behind there product Bogner, Soldano, Komet, Bruno, Mad Professor, Two Rock, Divided 13 the list goes on and on not one of these guys has ever given me anything but the best service and support available.

[pureoldsound]

There is only one builder I know of like that and I think its safe for everyone to say this is not his amp.

Well, that was not my experience with one highly regarded builder. I was about to buy a second hand amp contacted the builder for more info on such particular model, I got a very nasty email back from the builder, not only that the builder even contacted the dealer and made it aware of my email....Great customer service, what a great way to stand 100% behind your product....I turned away from it....no thank you...

[voodoosound]

Im sure we are talking about a different builder the builder I am refering to has no dealerships.

[Fuchsaudio]

6k? That is a pretty specific amount. I am going to guess...it is a Mad Professor. Personally, I never open up an amp to admire its internals. If it sounds good, it sounds good.

Mike

Not a Mad Professor. I will hold the line on "who's amp this is", but not an MP, nor a Tube Wonder or Two Rock.

[Stormy]

http://http://www.shutterandpupil.com/images/bumble.jpg

Originally Posted by jspax7
As for the "Blue Goo", it looks like an extra-terrestrial couldn't control himself...

Or this guy...
http://mumpy.typepad.com/gimpy_mumpy/images/abominable_snowman_1.jpg

[Gumby]

What does Voodoo mean by migrating silicon?

[Smokin Tone]

Maybe because you're a long way from the dealer and have a local tech who can do the job on the spot and much quicker. Or because you don't trust the dealer's repairman - they're not all great, even among 'authorized' dealers - and know a better one.

Exactly why one might do this. I had an output transformer go out in a new hand wired amp and had to take it to the authorized service center. When I got the amp back 4 weeks later they did a crappy job of installing it. What was a nice laced bundle of wires was now spliced and heat shrinked together with the extra wire wrapped in a bundle with ties around it. I ended up having to reinstall it myself.

[WesKuhnley]

Having built several "custom" amplifiers for clients, though certainly nothing even remotely close to what could be considered a small production run, I would personally be ashamed to sell an amp in such condition. Doesn't matter whether it's "safe" or not, it just looks like shit. Figure in the supposed $6k price tag, and whoever bought this was hustled. I always offer a lifetime warranty against manufacturing defects on any of my builds, and often will repair user-caused issues for free regardless. I just finished overhauling an amp one of my clients toasted by running it without a load. It only lends to a better repuatation.

Personally, the goop, pricetag, and the general aura that surrounds this amp reeks of insecurity. Honesty, especially regarding your expertise, is always the best option. In my humble opinion, unveiling someone's shotty work can't be considered even in the same league as "A negative comment about a competitor." as TGP guidlines state, more like simply revealing the reality of the situation.

For example, (first one I could think of...)Toyota is doing this in their commercials, comparing the different parts of their new truck vs Ford and Chevy's parts. Not that anyone should be using situations like these for commercial gain, but a rat's nest like this needs be be shown as an example of "what not to buy" rather than, "buy mine, it's better than this".

I say out the builder, he's more than welcome to post pictures of my builds...

[Smokin Tone]

Yes I would care. I don't do gutshots of anything I have. Email Tony I am sure he would be happy to share his work.


Ok. I thought so. Thank You anyway. I'll pass on emailing as I'm not that interested. I build my own.

[voodoosound]

From pictures of gutshots no doubt.

[57special]

6k? That is a pretty specific amount. I am going to guess...it is a Mad Professor. Personally, I never open up an amp to admire its internals. If it sounds good, it sounds good.

Mike
Nope. Got one. Looks nothing like that inside. It's very neat looking. See how the rumour/innuendo starts?

[WesKuhnley]

Nope. Got one. Looks nothing like that inside. It's very neat looking. See how the rumour/innuendo starts?

This is another good reason the builder should be outed...why should speculation lead to potentially inaccurate info regarding other builders (who arn't responsible for the amp pictured) being spread throughout the web by people who were never told straight out what type of amp it is? Let responsibility rest where it belongs, on who built this amp, and let said builder, should it be necessary, have a fair opportunity to rectify the situation. What's the matter with that situation?

[Smokin Tone]

From pictures of gutshots no doubt.

I didn't want hi-res gut shots. Just a shot to compare build quality to. Besides if it has that much goo the pics would be useless anyway. I have no interest in cloning one of these amps. If I did though I would buy one and flip it when I was finished.

[NitroLiq]

If you bought a new car and it broke down on you, you take it to the dealer or contact the manufacturer itself. You do not take it to Jiffy Lube.
Actually, I was thinking it's more like when you road test a new car and take it to a mechanic for inspection before purchasing—seems like a more logical anecdote.

[mykljpao]

Sorry to come so late to the party, or lynching (of Allyn, I might add, not the builder) but having just read through the entire thread, I guess I have a few relevant thoughts to add.

First off, this ugly beast happens to belong to me, although only until tomorrow when I return it to the national chain from whence it came. I tried the amp in the store one day. It sounded fabulous. Two days later, I returned with a different guitar just to be certain before the purchase. During this trial, the boost function stopped working. Now sounding somewhat less fabulous. Due to the "relatively low" cost, I still purchased the amp with the understanding that if I could have the problem easily repaired, they would refund the repair costs to me and I would add another "highly regarded" amp to the stable at a pretty reasonable expense.
So, let's get a few facts straight right off; the amp was USED and it was already MALFUNCTIONING and it was purchased with the intent of getting it repaired. No conjecture about "what if" something goes wrong......it already had.

I am fortunate to know Allyn and to be conveniently close to his place of business. I have seen, heard and played a couple of the amps he has built and they are as good as anything out there. BTW: Michael e. your snide, condescending comments about the "newbie amp tech" only preach your own ignorance. And I have spent a few too many hours chatting with Allyn about amps, guitars, music and personalities. Through this I know him to be an extraordinarily consciencious and respectful member of the playing and building community. Anyway....I brought the amp to him expecting the quick repair of a relay or bad connection, etc. only to have him call me one day later and say "you're not gonna believe this. I've got to send you some pictures". Why would I want to ship this back to the original builder if it is bought used, out of warranty and I could get it fixed almost immediately for less than the cost of shipping? How hard is it to see the logic in that? Especially when the "tech" is a highly regarded builder himself. Oh, another point, Allyn has extremely high standards not only in his build quality but in what projects he will accept. He primarily builds for himself, occasionally to help someone out but, to my knowledge, has never built a clone of another builder's amp in order to market it or even offer it up for sale. From what I can ascertain, he does it for the love of it (kinda like playing music for some / most of us, eh?)

Regardless, back to the sad story. So I receive the pics and am as horrified as Allyn was. No amplifier with a pricetag that high should look like that inside, IMHO. I stated at the start, and reiterate again, the goddam thing sounds incredible. However, I have quite a few amps that sound incredible ( 5 Fuchs, 2 Two Rocks plus one on the way, Constellation, London 65, Shiva, Germino Masonnette, Aiken Intruder, etc) And I can say with some certainty that NONE of them look anything like that inside. I have enough similarly voiced amps that I don't need the potential problems that could arise out of that mess.

Allyn did me a serious favor in looking into the amp and revealing the difficulty of repair and several potential hazards within. Although he might have phrased his initial post differently, I can tell you with absolute certainty that his post was specifically intended to warn folks to look under the hood when spending the kind of money that high end amps command in this day and age. I respect his decision to not state the manufacturer and would like to think that this amp was an anomaly rather than standard practice however, I am inclined to think otherwise. It is possible, although highly unlikely, that sometime in the past, someone else butchered the insides of this thing, but that is precisely the point. If you're buying a used amp, you don't know where the damn thing might 'a been and it would be prudent to open it up and see just what you are spending your hard earned thousands on. That's all....no agenda...just some advice to those of us who tend to take some things for granted.
Allyn doesn't need to "get his name out there" ; it's already out there and seriously regarded in the circles that matter to him. Nor is he a competitor of any commercial amp builder. Nor does he deserve the personal attacks and conjecture espoused by several in this thread. Direct your ire towards the shoddy build quality, not the person who brings it to your attention. These things are, after all, machines that are powered by fragile glass tubes; a dicey notion at best and every machine I've ever experienced has broken at some point. For some, it might only be about tone but for me it's about tone, functionality, reliability and serviceability and safety. You can take all the issue you want with Allyn's semantics but at the end of the day, caveat emptor.

[WesKuhnley]

Thanks for the lowdown on the whole situation.

[allynmey]

Thanks for the post Mike. I didn't feel that it was place to mention the individuals (owner and builders names) for them. I'm glad you had a chance to clear that up. It was always my intention to call attention to fact that people know what they are buying, nothing more.

Allyn

[Red Planet]

I take this thread for what it is. Someone genuinely trying to urge others to think about their purchases and beware as to not fall prey to this kind of building. Whats in those pics is a freakin pure mess and build quality really does matter when it comes time to service or repair said amp.

You'll not catch me purchasing an amp like that and I'm not the least bit curious about who may have built it. The simple message is BE CAREFUL!

As to the hole everytime someone says something negative around here and some go to quacking in their boots. Good grief get a grip. I say what I want and what I think. It may get my arse run off but it wont shut me up. :crazy


:RoCkIn What some of you guys need is a sack full of corks. Clearly some of you have a bad case of the Spuckets. :D

[MoRawk]

Im sure we are talking about a different builder the builder I am refering to has no dealerships.

If it's the builder that you are referring to who has no dealerships, no one in their right mind would get the materials, double box the amp and pay the shipping fees to send it halfway across the country to fix a problem with a switch. The easier, safer and most cost-effective thing to do is to take it to a trusted amp tech a la Allynmey. Sorry voodoosound. Seems like you're going to have to figure out another way to chip away at the credibility of Allynmey's experience.

[kt77]

I just don't understand why you don't gut it, and turn it into a REAL amp....like a HiWatt, or a Burman

send that 'thing' to me........I'll burn it's guts out w/ JP-5 and build you a MAN's amp

****ing women.....grow some ball's and buy real amps

[BJF]

Hi,

Well allynmey, you could have gotten respect by showing a picture, and then preferably one were fire may just occour as an example of something to check for.
Actually I and I think anyone would agree with you that customers would best be ware of what they buy and a tech would be able to tell............
Very good and well

However that's not what you ask in the first post.

To me that first post reads 'guess who makes this amp and how does that guy dare charge 6000$ for it?'

I don't see the good in such a discussion, nor to where that would have to lead.

I can say there's a very thin line between naming the manufacturer and asking others to name the manufacturer after having posted pictures of the amplifiers inwards and stated that it is has been accused of being a clone of a major manufacturer and that it costs 6000$- there are very few amps in that range and even fewer that would resemble the inward looks of the photos presented.
Having said that I have no idea what amp it is, though I assume some can guess.
Hm, let's see it's 6000$ channelswitching amp made in US and a presumably a clone of a famous amp and sold through dealers and worldwide........and it's not Fuchs, Two Rock,Bruno, Glaswerks..................continued

Do you see where this is leading? Any known manufacturer would have to deny any acknowledgement of the pictures-even if their amps would not fit the bill............sooner or later there would only be one left........

This leads to speculation and you know there are even those that wonder if you have posted a picture of a Mad Professor amp!!!!!

Well, sir allynmey, you are not spreading happiness

Anyone interested in how an MP is built may either do a search on this forum and others or visit
www.mpamp.com


If this thread had been merely a discussion of amplifier building techniques and in the tech section it could have been one thing and it could have been real good and held in a polite manner-while this thread seems more concentrated on the price of this amp and wether that is justified as compared to building techniques.

OK- it's not what I'd call neat wiring.............and yes there are a number of US amps that could not be sold in stores within EC, though musicians sneak them in anyway becuase they crave the sounds, the myths and percieved value..........oh yes there are some amps built in EC aswell that ..........well are not approved and cannot be, while most of those have very little popularity

http://i26.photobucket.com/albums/c149/VacuumVoodoo/TBWDR/tbwdr_shake_2.jpg

Some good old EC tolchocking for your amp-featured is the Tubewonder amp http://www.anacon-tech.com taking the vibrationtest......

allynmey are you Allyn Meyer associated with
http://ampbuildersguild.com/story2007Q1.htm


Carry on gentlemen
BJ
'Not Impressed' Bukka T Mönkkönen

Affiliations
www.bjfelectronics.com
www.mpamp.com

[StompBoxBlues]

I'm with the other guy...wanting to know what was meant by "silicon migration"???

[Stormy]

I'm with the other guy...wanting to know what was meant by "silicon migration"???


Mysterious Blue Goo?

[MoRawk]

Hi,

Well allynmey, you could have gotten respect by showing a picture, and then preferably one were fire may just occour as an example of something to check for.
Actually I and I think anyone would agree with you that customers would best be ware of what they buy and a tech would be able to tell............
Very good and well

However that's not what you ask in the first post.

To me that first post reads 'guess who makes this amp and how does that guy dare charge 6000$ for it?'

I don't see the good in such a discussion, nor to where that would have to lead.

I can say there's a very thin line between naming the manufacturer and asking others to name the manufacturer after having posted pictures of the amplifiers inwards and stated that it is has been accused of being a clone of a major manufacturer and that it costs 6000$- there are very few amps in that range and even fewer that would resemble the inward looks of the photos presented.
Having said that I have no idea what amp it is, though I assume some can guess.
Hm, let's see it's 6000$ channelswitching amp made in US and a presumably a clone of a famous amp and sold through dealers and worldwide........and it's not Fuchs, Two Rock,Bruno, Glaswerks..................continued

Do you see where this is leading? Any known manufacturer would have to deny any acknowledgement of the pictures-even if their amps would not fit the bill............sooner or later there would only be one left........

This leads to speculation and you know there are even those that wonder if you have posted a picture of a Mad Professor amp!!!!!

Well, sir allynmey, you are not spreading happiness

Anyone interested in how an MP is built may either do a search on this forum and others or visit
www.mpamp.com (http://www.mpamp.com)


If this thread had been merely a discussion of amplifier building techniques and in the tech section it could have been one thing and it could have been real good and held in a polite manner-while this thread seems more concentrated on the price of this amp and wether that is justified as compared to building techniques.

OK- it's not what I'd call neat wiring.............and yes there are a number of US amps that could not be sold in stores within EC, though musicians sneak them in anyway becuase they crave the sounds, the myths and percieved value..........oh yes there are some amps built in EC aswell that ..........well are not approved and cannot be, while most of those have very little popularity

http://i26.photobucket.com/albums/c149/VacuumVoodoo/TBWDR/tbwdr_shake_2.jpg

Some good old EC tolchocking for your amp-featured is the Tubewonder amp http://www.anacon-tech.com taking the vibrationtest......

allynmey are you Allyn Meyer associated with
http://ampbuildersguild.com/story2007Q1.htm


Carry on gentlemen
BJ
'Not Impressed' Bukka T Mönkkönen

Affiliations
www.bjfelectronics.com (http://www.bjfelectronics.com)
www.mpamp.com (http://www.mpamp.com)

Agree with your post Bjorn but honestly, I'm 99.9999999% sure that MBrennin threw out the name Mad Professor as a joke to make light of the whole situation. Anyways, anyone who knows anything about amplifiers, knows that the Mad Professor doesn't have blue goop....








...it has red. :BEER

[StompBoxBlues]

This thread brings up another aspect/point with boutique amplifiers.

For those that say "I don't care what's inside, if it sounds good that's all that matters" aren't thinking about the phyical danger of an amp not up to standard. The reason there are standards is not just for servicing, neatness, etc. The reason for standards also has to do with safety for from deadly shock, from fire, etc.

Wires with higher voltages running through holes stamped or cut in metal without grommets is a good candidate for fire, shock, OR just "blowing up" your amp, no matter how good it sounds.

What amazed me in all this, is I always assumed even home builders, if it were electrical components carrying possibly fatal currents, would have to be "authorized" or "approved" by regulators. Manufacturers at least years ago, used UL (there was a main UL facility near where I lived in Chicago, and I thought that would be the COOLEST job, testing new products for failure, safety).

That is the scary part. That an amp that was made like that can be sold in the US is a pretty scary thought actually.
How does one know amp designers are using "best methods" for grounding, etc.?

[teleamp]

OK, I give in, this thread has become a PSA. But only after reading posts by JP & SBB.

.......That is the scary part. That an amp that was made like that can be sold in the US is a pretty scary thought actually.
How does one know amp designers are using "best methods" for grounding, etc.?

Look for UL, CE, CSA certs on the amp, you probably won't find any on any of the boutiques. If you are not comfortable buying a non-certified amp then you are left with the major mfg'ers (at least they have pockets deep enough, that if something were to happen...)

There is no "best method" for grounding, there is only ONE way... the chassis MUST be grounded......IF YOUR AC RECEPTACLE IS NOT GROUNDED....then your amp IS not grounded!!! IT is a two way street with grounding safety! A lot of older homes may have grounded receps, but are they actually grounded? Mine wasn't!!



I think, the consumer needs to do their homework. There is a wealth of mis-information on the net.

There are only a couple of custom/boutique builders that have any kind of certification here in the states.

I think that in the coming years Uncle Sam is going to step in and the majority of boutiques will go by by. It is not long before RoHs is going to be implemented here in the states.

Mike

[TheAmpNerd]

I'm with the other guy...wanting to know what was meant by "silicon migration"???

It physically moves. The silicon migrates into everything and anything
electric that has a path to the source....from switches, to pots, to
sockets, to motors etc.

I was flabbergasted when he explained it to me...I couldn't belive it.
He assured me it was quite true. It would also show up in their
solder too causing havoc with their newly manufactured stuff.

It also messed with their test equipment too.

Kind of like Soy in animal feed; (lab mice, rats, rabbits, monkeys,
swine, etc.) it has just enought stuff in it to invalidate or add unusual variation to 60+ years of labratory testing.

OR

Think about the old boob jobs...they used to end up at the ankles!

[StompBoxBlues]

OK, I give in, this thread has become a PSA. But only after reading posts by JP & SBB.



Look for UL, CE, CSA certs on the amp, you probably won't find any on any of the boutiques. If you are not comfortable buying a non-certified amp then you are left with the major mfg'ers (at least they have pockets deep enough, that if something were to happen...)

There is no "best method" for grounding, there is only ONE way... the chassis MUST be grounded......IF YOUR AC RECEPTACLE IS NOT GROUNDED....then your amp IS not grounded!!! IT is a two way street with grounding safety! A lot of older homes may have grounded receps, but are they actually grounded? Mine wasn't!!



I think, the consumer needs to do their homework. There is a wealth of mis-information on the net.

There are only a couple of custom/boutique builders that have any kind of certification here in the states.

I think that in the coming years Uncle Sam is going to step in and the majority of boutiques will go by by. It is not long before RoHs is going to be implemented here in the states.

Mike

Please...could someon explain what PSA stands for?

As far as grounding...you hopped over the part...if the ground wire in the amp is NOT grounded, or not PROPERLY grounded. That is my point. It doesn't matter if you have a grounded receptacle if the plug isn't physically connected properly to the chassis. There are other paths (through the guitar and you) if grounded improperly.

If you are saying that imposing standards, SAFETY standards, that any respectable amp builder better know about and doproperly, is some kind of burden on them and they ought to be able to slip having to conform to those, then I'd say that would be a mistake.

[TheAmpNerd]

My theory of amp building it this.

You first have to fix equipment for a while first.

Then you can design and build amps that can be maintained
and worked on--holding up to the abuses of the road,
the electrical grid, musicians, and roadies.

It is no wonder that there are so many Fender amps still
plugging along have years of abuse and misuse.

Leo was first a repairman who deisgned built his amps with a logic
and simplicity that even "a cave man" could fix'em.

Well the latter might be a tad far fetched...but they
do have moms that call them on their cell phones....

[trivial]

I have found this to be a pretty good thread. It definitely makes one think twice about what they are purchasing (at any price).

Also, let's not fool ourselves here... even if the thread had been started "in a different manner" inevitably we would have ended up at the question "who made this amp?"

(not trying to ruffle any feathers here... just making a comment)

.m

[Scott Peterson]

All of this could have been avoided easily if the thread starter had started this in the right spirit. He did not.

Which leads to lots of folks speculating about his motives. His method - 'guess this amp...." and showing a picture of crap in a chassis.

First off, post it in the correct section. This is a tech related discussion. Put it in the right place.

Second off, add some context to the discussion. Do not simply post a thread called "Mystery Amp" and then goad folks into 'guess the amp...". That is muckracking, sensationalism, call it what you like. It is meant and aimed to get a rise out of folks.

Playing stupid when you are not stupid sets me off. The, "Who me?" defense and "Well, that's not what I meant to do...." when you did indeed mean to do just gets me pissed off. Play it straight or don't post.

Post the thread. Title it appropriately. Add context into the first post and don't put the thing in the wrong section.

I hope that helps folks to understand what went on here and why, at least related to my posts on this thread, I said what I did.

[teleamp]

Please...could someon explain what PSA stands for?

Public Service Announcement

As far as grounding...you hopped over the part...if the ground wire in the amp is NOT grounded, or not PROPERLY grounded. That is my point. It doesn't matter if you have a grounded receptacle if the plug isn't physically connected properly to the chassis. There are other paths (through the guitar and you) if grounded improperly.


You can have the safest amp in the world... and all that safety goes out the door IF your house/power source isn't properly grounded.

If you are saying that imposing standards, SAFETY standards, that any respectable amp builder better know about and doproperly, is some kind of burden on them and they ought to be able to slip having to conform to those, then I'd say that would be a mistake.

That wasn't my point. and definitely NOT what I meant. What I meant was, that there are no requirements for boutique amps to have any certification here in the states. And with that in consideration, you have guys that can solder building and selling amps. That doesn't mean that they are building them correctly (safetywise).

Anybody selling amps, better have done there homework...but....the bottom line is and will always be....at least here in the states, BUYER BEWARE!!!

[grill]

wow, :munch

[StompBoxBlues]

Public Service Announcement



Thanks!



You can have the safest amp in the world... and all that safety goes out the door IF your house/power source isn't properly grounded.



I get the feeling we agree mostly, but you and I are getting hung up on different aspects here.

You can also have the most UNSAFE amp in the world, and it also goes out the door even if your house power is correctly grounded.

I see the issues as seperate. We are talking about the amp makers. It's good to repeat the normal safety idea that houses ought to have three pronged outlest, properly grounded. There are though, electrical codes, houses being built cannot just install whatever, they have to be inspected. I know there are older wiring in houses that is unsafe, but assume the buyer is either aware of this, or not on the internet.

However, CONSUMERS are used to expecting that if say a guitar amp is being sold it is safe as long as you don't go into the chassis, etc. They may believe it wouldn't be sold if unsafe, they would be wrong in just assuming that as this PSA (see, I learned!) thread ought to show. Grounding is only one problem, fire hazard is another...

I personally was pretty flabbergasted when I realized that someone could sell something without being required to adhere to standard practice. Grommets in holes in metal where current carrying wire would be routed. Things like that. That would indicate they aren't insured also. Product liability, all that.

[Mastervolume]

Wow what a thread!!!

Please leave the pictures up!!! I am having my 3 y/o neighbor build me a clone.

Intentions of the original post? - I think it is just shock and dismay at the site of what was under the hood. Really that is just horrible AND inexcusable. You don't need to build amps that way and if you do people should know that this is what they are buying. I wouldn't buy a new car that had the engine duct taped in, nor would I get mad at consumer reports for exposing the design flaw.....

on another note I have seen Allyn's handy work and I can honestly say that I have NEVER seen a better or cleaner build from any bulider, this guy could teach a clinic...... I honestly don't know why he hasn't developed his own line of amps so we can pick them apart for ...I don't know veiled mids in the upper 2.5K area........"seems to interfere with the figurines my wife has on our bookshelf....."

[soulohio]

i kinda like that pic with the blue goo everywhere...sorta like spin art...and i haven't had me breakfast yet and i need to eat something...

[StompBoxBlues]

Wow what a thread!!!

Please leave the pictures up!!! I am having my 3 y/o neighbor build me a clone.



While I am not sure a 3-year-old could do better, certainly couldn't do worse.

Also...there IS such a thing as child-labor laws you know.

[pureoldsound]

I have not come across any of those builders and frankly at the prices these things go for these days I would be shocked. I own about 30-35 high end amps(as there called) all different builders and everyone stands behind there product Bogner, Soldano, Komet, Bruno, Mad Professor, Two Rock, Divided 13 the list goes on and on not one of these guys has ever given me anything but the best service and support available.

No pun intended nor I would like to see any gut pics, but will love to see a pic of your collection I think it will be cool to see all those amps sitting one next to the other…

[VacuumVoodoo]

What I meant was, that there are no requirements for boutique amps to have any certification here in the states.


Yes, but does it imply that a certain subset of consumer products - which a boutique amplifier is - is exempt from conforming to electrical safety norms and standards?

Let's take the CE mark as example. A manufacturer, that is any manufacturer, is obliged by law to put a CE mark on any product, even a one off custom flux capacitor, intended for sale. Now, CE mark does not mean "Made in European Union" and it does not even mean that the product is certified as complying with the norms. All it means that the manufacturer declares that the product complies with applicable norms and standards. A copy of this self declaration with your signature must accompany each product.

All this is not required if you only build for your private use in your home. As soon as you sell it the CE mark rules apply. Strict to the letter interpretation of the CE mark rules implies that you aren't allowed to use the amp outside your home.(A digression: Ah, yes, when it comes to safety Europe as a whole is a lunatic asylum; we shouldn't be spending money on building new psychiatric clinics but just put a roof over the whole continent)

Now, boutique or small production: depending on your risk taking profile you can bungy jump without a rope and just stick a CE mark on your rear panel and mumble happily "so far so good" as you descend towards the ground which you will eventually hit rather hard.

So, is all this CE mark thing just crap? I mean, all you need to do is buy a roll of "CE" stickers and be done with it?

Well, not really. The key is "manufacturer declares compliance". If you have enough knowledge about safety standards and which ones apply as well as how to test compliance of your product you can perform all tests yourself, protocol and archive the test results and be done with it. Self conducted tests do not warrant certification in strict meaning. Otherwise have your product tested by an accredited test laboratory, a good tester will work with you as tests progress and will point out weak points that need adjustment. Look for a test lab with some old engineers still working there, they'll be more than excited to have a tube amp to work with.
The lab will then provide you with test protocols and relevant certificates and they'll also keep a full technical file in their archives.
It does cost money but considering the worst case scenario involving trigger happy lawyers and insurance companies a properly maintained certification is dirt cheap by comparison.

The norms applicable to amps are: IEC60065 and IEC61558-2-4 to transformers in particular. Substitute UL for IEC in USA.

Just to make a point:
Safety norms and standards do not concern themselves with wiring aesthetics at all. On the other hand neat wiring is easier to make safe and to inspect.
Goo: you shouldn't use silicon intended fro sealing leaky plumbing and such. There are special compounds designed for sealing, and if need be concealing, electronic circuits and they come in a variety of colors. Boosts aesthetics of the guts too.

Sorry for the rant and some of the wording, I'm in a lightly sarcastic mood today.

[teleamp]

Thanks Alex, that was an informative post. With a lot of useful information. IIRC, (here in the states) if an amp is used in a commercial setting (on stage etc...) the amp is required to have a UL (forgot the number) certification. Makes perfect common sense, CE = consumer electrical device, for househould use only.

So, I have a new question. If an inspector showed up at a concert and a guitarist was using a non certified or CE certified amp, who could be cited? And for What?

Mike

[Fuchsaudio]

This thread brings up another aspect/point with boutique amplifiers. The reason for standards also has to do with safety for from deadly shock, from fire, etc. Wires with higher voltages running through holes stamped or cut in metal without grommets is a good candidate for fire, shock, OR just "blowing up" your amp, no matter how good it sounds. What amazed me in all this, is I always assumed even home builders, if it were electrical components carrying possibly fatal currents, would have to be "authorized" or "approved" by regulators. Manufacturers at least years ago, used UL (there was a main UL facility near where I lived in Chicago, and I thought that would be the COOLEST job, testing new products for failure, safety). That is the scary part. That an amp that was made like that can be sold in the US is a pretty scary thought actually. How does one know amp designers are using "best methods" for grounding, etc.?

Some chains (from what I understand Long and Mc Quade and Guitar Center) will not sell new products that do not bear a CE or UL mark somewhere. As a manufacturer who has submitted his products for CE testing, I can tell you it's not cheap, but we feel it pays.

For starters: Despite posts to the contrary, the CE mark actually exceeds the US UL electrical testing standards. UL testing in the US can be a time consuming and expensive process. Many companies cannot afford this, nor wait for it. UL often asks a manufacturer to make corrections and resubmit for a full battery of tests again. Some companies choose to self-certify. For a large company like Fender, they could afford the liability. For a small company, most wouldn't want to take the risk, (if their smart).

The CE process took over a year and our company invested over 15-K for our initial testing process, and we pay quarterly "review" fees for RoHs and CE compliance. Testing not only involves simple things like the ratings of fuses, switches, or that a fuse holder is "zero clearance" (you cannot reach a line voltage with a finger), but: CE certification also tests proper electrical grounding, proper wire ratings, internal transformer construction and insulation ratings, vent holes and/or consumer protection against hot power tubes, but it also includes destructive testing. Things like over voltage, surges, high voltage shocks similar to a lightning strikes are simulated and the amps are repaired then tested again.

While it is legal for someone to sell a product that isn't marked, as a consumer you can feel comfort in the safety of the product within normal use. As a manufacturer, our insurance provider is very happy that should there ever be a fatality related to proper use of our products, we have test reports from a recognized testing laboratory showing these tests were conducted and under what circumstances.

[VacuumVoodoo]

Thanks Alex, that was an informative post. With a lot of useful information. IIRC, (here in the states) if an amp is used in a commercial setting (on stage etc...) the amp is required to have a UL (forgot the number) certification. Makes perfect common sense, CE = consumer electrical device, for househould use only.

So, I have a new question. If an inspector showed up at a concert and a guitarist was using a non certified or CE certified amp, who could be cited? And for What?

Mike

Mike,

firstly: HAPPY BIRTHDAY!

CE does not stand for Consumer Electrical device, it stands for Commission Europee. Everything must carry CE mark, even teddy bears and condoms must comply with relevant norms.

As for stage use, same CE rules apply, however some aspects of 60065 norm can be "loopholed" by clearly stating that the product is intended for operation and use only by trained professionals.

As for whose rear end gets kicked: whoever is/was primary channel for putting the product on EU market: importer, distributor is required to ensure that CE marking is applied in due dilligence i.e. request and obtain copies of compliance certificates from manufacturer.

Guess why "Safety Instructions" section of my and some other CE marked amps Users Manual is over 4 pages?

[Fuchsaudio]

Aleks, just caught your post. We said the same thing from two sides of the world ! lol.

Check your PM's , I have a question....

[pureoldsound]

The CE process took over a year and our company invested over 15-K for our initial testing process, and we pay quarterly "review" fees for RoHs and CE compliance. Testing not only involves simple things like the ratings of fuses, switches, or that a fuse holder is "zero clearance" (you cannot reach a line voltage with a finger), but: CE certification also tests proper electrical grounding, proper wire ratings, internal transformer construction and insulation ratings, vent holes and/or consumer protection against hot power tubes, but it also includes destructive testing. Things like over voltage, surges, high voltage shocks similar to a lightning strikes are simulated and the amps are repaired then tested again.


Andy did you had to repair the same amp over and over and then send it back to them for more testing?

[allynmey]

BJF, I understand why you want people to know it isn't your amp...It isn't. And yes that is me on the ampbuildersguild site concerning the KF memorial Amp. The spirit you talk about is one of shock and reaction to an abortion of an amp that made it's way to my table...nothing more. If you need it to be, maybe I should run my posts by you for Political Correctness before I submit them....come on!!!!!!

ScottP, I don't know why you have such a hard on for me lately, maybe I struck a nerve in a recent post that I don't know about. The fact that I do repairs and build amps has nothing to do with the post. As usual, when somebody around here posts a picture of an amp or discusses Holy Grail technology, the same 4 or 5 people come out in force to start trouble or to assign motive. Maybe the same psychic that can tell my true motives might tell us where Jimmy Hoffa is buried too!

To answer you in another post....Allyn Meyers is my name. Allynmey is my screen name and I've had it since the text days on the internet when names were kept to 8 letters. I don't hide behind clever names as you mentioned before. Those who know me or have had work done by me or even people I helped in the past generally have good things to say about me. That is who I care about. Those who are attack dogs at the behest of others well...I could care less! Maybe that same psychic can tell me what your true motives are.

Thanks all who supported me as I tried to heighten peoples awareness about what they might or might not be buying. One thing for sure...everyone who read this and buys expensive gear will probably ask to see the insides in the future before plunking down their hard earned money.....


Allyn

[57special]

Mike,

firstly: HAPPY BIRTHDAY!

CE does not stand for Consumer Electrical device, it stands for Commission Europee. Everything must carry CE mark, even teddy bears and condoms must comply with relevant norms.

As for stage use, same CE rules apply, however some aspects of 60065 norm can be "loopholed" by clearly stating that the product is intended for operation and use only by trained professionals.

As for whose rear end gets kicked: whoever is/was primary channel for putting the product on EU market: importer, distributor is required to ensure that CE marking is applied in due dilligence i.e. request and obtain copies of compliance certificates from manufacturer.

Guess why "Safety Instructions" section of my and some other CE marked amps Users Manual is over 4 pages?

Alex,
Appreciate your posts. I'm sure your choice of Teddy Bears/Condoms as products needing a CE designation was arbitrary.???!!!
Look forward to getting the amp.

[Fuchsaudio]

Andy did you had to repair the same amp over and over and then send it back to them for more testing?

Most of the issues were minor: chassis ground and how it's connected, switch ratings fuse holder types, and declarations of conformity from transformer and wire suppliers, that kind of stuff. They blew up a bunch of power supply boards through destructive testing, which we supplied and they replaced.
Having worked in the fire alarm industry, I dealt with companies who had products certified by UL. In comparison the CE certification and the company that supplied it were a much smoother process.

[VacuumVoodoo]

Aleks, just caught your post. We said the same thing from two sides of the world ! lol.

Check your PM's , I have a question....

Ok, replied.

As for "destructive testing". Norms define "potentially destructive tests". Some test labs, especially formerly state owned now privatized, will intentionally run the test until irreparable damage is inflicted. These guys still think they have monopoly on testing.
Go with a smaller private lab, just make sure they are accredited and entitled to issue certificates. The lab I used stayed in constant communication with me during testing, whenever they had doubts about some component they'd call and I would send properly rated replacement for them to put in the amp. Any potentially destructive test was discussed in depth and preventive measures taken prior to test. As mentioned in my first post: find a lab with some old engineers who are tube geeks themselves. I know they don't grow on trees any more.

[Fuchsaudio]

Ok, replied.

As for "destructive testing". Norms define "potentially destructive tests". Some test labs, especially formerly state owned now privatized, will intentionally run the test until irreparable damage is inflicted. These guys still think they have monopoly on testing.
Go with a smaller private lab, just make sure they are accredited and entitled to issue certificates. The lab I used stayed in constant communication with me during testing, whenever they had doubts about some component they'd call and I would send properly rated replacement for them to put in the amp. Any potentially destructive test was discussed in depth and preventive measures taken prior to test. As mentioned in my first post: find a lab with some old engineers who are tube geeks themselves. I know they don't grow on trees any more.

Pretty much our experience as well. Thanks for the PM. :)

[plexi67]

On the CE or UL rating,and some stores will only sell those. What about old amps, the UL or CE rating may be on them,but by a 1950 or 1960 standard. And i'm sure many updates and changes and different regulations over the years,have been added.

I do agree, it seems like the rules here can be broke by some,and nothing is ever done to them. I've seen this many times. And the same people 'chime' when Allyn posts..and they are just wanting to cause trouble or stir the pot. Most of the time it has nothing to do with what is being discussed.
And it all comes back to things that were posted long ago about Wrecks or komets.

[Jackie Treehorn]

All of this could have been avoided easily if the thread starter had started this in the right spirit. He did not.

Which leads to lots of folks speculating about his motives. His method - 'guess this amp...." and showing a picture of crap in a chassis.

First off, post it in the correct section. This is a tech related discussion. Put it in the right place.

Second off, add some context to the discussion. Do not simply post a thread called "Mystery Amp" and then goad folks into 'guess the amp...". That is muckracking, sensationalism, call it what you like. It is meant and aimed to get a rise out of folks.

Playing stupid when you are not stupid sets me off. The, "Who me?" defense and "Well, that's not what I meant to do...." when you did indeed mean to do just gets me pissed off. Play it straight or don't post.

Post the thread. Title it appropriately. Add context into the first post and don't put the thing in the wrong section.

I hope that helps folks to understand what went on here and why, at least related to my posts on this thread, I said what I did.

I interpretted the 2 questions posed in the original post as rhetorical. The funny part is that the original poster did not say anything negative at all. It was the subsequent posts that set the thread in its "negative" direction. Mystery Amp struck me as humorous due to recent fears/paranoia of litigious amplifier companies, and the rules set in place in their wake.

Maybe there should be a rule that all posts have to be literal in style!

[VacuumVoodoo]

On the CE or UL rating,and some stores will only sell those. What about old amps, the UL or CE rating may be on them,but by a 1950 or 1960 standard. And i'm sure many updates and changes and different regulations over the years,have been added.


Yes, norms change over time but they do NOT act retroactively, instead a grace or phasing out period is defined. A general rule is that electrical equipment must comply with norms that were in use at the time it was put on market/certified. This implies that upgrading old equipment to current norms isn't always an upgrade of safety per se, it may or may not introduce new hazards. Example of what is absolutely not allowed any more are old radios and amplifiers powered directly from mains supply without an isolating power transformer, they belong in a museum (preferably) or should be made nonoperational by removing the power cord if you have them in your home.


The CE system is part of global harmonization of norms and standards and as such has replaced all national certification marks such as Semko, VDE etc.
It also means that a certification issued in any EU country is valid in all of EU.

I hope that the recent posts have put this thread on the right course and we can leave the "who dunnit" games behind.

[Fuchsaudio]

On the CE or UL rating,and some stores will only sell those. What about old amps, the UL or CE rating may be on them,but by a 1950 or 1960 standard. And i'm sure many updates and changes and different regulations over the years,have been added.

I do agree, it seems like the rules here can be broke by some,and nothing is ever done to them. I've seen this many times. And the same people 'chime' when Allyn posts..and they are just wanting to cause trouble or stir the pot. Most of the time it has nothing to do with what is being discussed.
And it all comes back to things that were posted long ago about Wrecks or komets.

This is no different than the RoHs issue in Europe and Japan. I understand Japan reputedly has new laws that affect old vintage gear. An old Les Paul with lead solder, sorry, cannot bring it into the country. It's hurt their vintage market substantially from what I've heard. I could be wrong, and would welcome input from afar, if I am.

As far vs old and new, I did mention in my post "new gear". Used and vintage should certainly be exempt, in a perfect world where politicians don't make these decisions. It would seem logical that an old amp would not be expected to comply with current codes, of-course since when did logic prevail ? I still get service customers who request I DON'T put a 3-prong cord on a repair, since "it's not original".

In any case, to return to topic: No, the subject amp in the thread would not comply with UL nor CE, for most of the reasons listed previously.

[brad347]

I still get service customers who request I DON'T put a 3-prong cord on a repair, since "it's not original".



Speaking of which, I have still not gotten around to putting a 3-prong cord on that Echoplex you fixed up for me. :nono

I guess I'll have to get a good shock before I stop being lazy. :Spank

[plexi67]

I still get service customers who request I DON'T put a 3-prong cord on a repair, since "it's not original".


Same here.

[Fuchsaudio]

With "pro's" like Eric Johnson telling people "ungrounded amps sound better", a consumer is rightfully confused.

It's scary. I've been shocked in bands that HAD three prong cords on everything and the venue had a serious wiring problem. Of-course, how many band members do you know who carry voltmeters to gigs..? :)

[mykljpao]

I interpretted the 2 questions posed in the original post as rhetorical. The funny part is that the original poster did not say anything negative at all. It was the subsequent posts that set the thread in its "negative" direction. Mystery Amp struck me as humorous due to recent fears/paranoia of litigious amplifier companies, and the rules set in place in their wake.

Maybe there should be a rule that all posts have to be literal in style!

Yikes! The voice of reason is finally heard. Rather than honoring Allyn's intention to not name a builder, others just HAD to speculate. Personally, I am indebted to him that I didn't have to find out (with a potentially outrageous repair bill) the hard way that this was an item I was probably better off without. Prior to his post, we had spoken about how many of us would never think to open an amp to see what we were buying. How many of us would consider buying a vehicle if we opened the hood and saw the equivalent build quality? "Oh yeah??? We'll it does 0-60 in 2.5 seconds!" But it has the potential to blow up at the end of the run.... And just wait 'till you have to degoop it to change the belts. :worried

[ScottR]

Of-course, how many band members do you know who carry voltmeters to gigs..? :)

I do, I also gig with Wireless just for that reason

[jspax7]

I passed on buying an Emerald Pro awhile back, because it had been modded, and not by Two Rock.

Most reputable builders will service or restore one of their own.

While I do believe that tone is the bottom line, safety is of course important. BTW, I built a kit, but that does not make me a tech. My D'lyte looks better than the pics posted, and I did have help with power up. (safe and sane...)

The problem I see with the thread is putting it out there as an example of a builder's product without knowing if it has been modified, and by whom, and whether the picture is an indication of a known builder's typical work.

Any dealer should open an amp if the customer requests it, providing the amp is used.

New amps that are covered by warranty may be another issue. I prefer that new amps should not be opened, as I had an experience where a dealer changed a speaker to something that was not stock, and IMO was inside the amp before I received it. Lesson learned, buyer beware. Know your dealer.

[Doug's Tubes]

I still get service customers who request I DON'T put a 3-prong cord on a repair, since "it's not original".



A replaced 2 prong plug wouldnt be original either........might as well play safe.

[Jackie Treehorn]

http://i26.photobucket.com/albums/c149/VacuumVoodoo/TBWDR/tbwdr_shake_2.jpg



Very cool, my friend. I prefer a 5 gallon myself, as here in the wine country, beer drinkers are a rarer breed...

http://ftp.theinside.net//misc/KegTest.JPG

[JimiB]

thats hilarious!
:horse

[pureoldsound]

This is no different than the RoHs issue in Europe and Japan. I understand Japan reputedly has new laws that affect old vintage gear. An old Les Paul with lead solder, sorry, cannot bring it into the country. It's hurt their vintage market substantially from what I've heard. I could be wrong, and would welcome input from afar, if I am.

.

No you are correct, Japan imposed that law last year...I was after a couple of Vintage analog synths when the news hit the market.

[El Caballo]

IIRC, (here in the states) if an amp is used in a commercial setting (on stage etc...) the amp is required to have a UL (forgot the number) certification. Makes perfect common sense, CE = consumer electrical device, for househould use only.

Not true. "The UL Mark does not carry any legal weight beyond that of any other trademark. In this sense, it is different from the CE Marking or the FCC Part 15 requirements for electronic devices, which are required by law." -Wikipedia
[Note: CE marking is only required in the EU]

It may be true that some venues require equipment plugged into their electrical system to be UL or CE marked, probably as a result of their insurance coverage. However, in the USA, there is no legal requirement AFAIK for amplifiers built for sale to meet any particular safety specification. (This doesn't mean that someone can't sue your pants off if they shock themselves, so as Andy Fuchs notes, it is wise to comply with a standard for liability reasons.)

[brownnote]

Roflmmfao!!!!

[Fuchsaudio]

Not true. "The UL Mark does not carry any legal weight beyond that of any other trademark. In this sense, it is different from the CE Marking or the FCC Part 15 requirements for electronic devices, which are required by law." -Wikipedia
[Note: CE marking is only required in the EU]

It may be true that some venues require equipment plugged into their electrical system to be UL or CE marked, probably as a result of their insurance coverage. However, in the USA, there is no legal requirement AFAIK for amplifiers built for sale to meet any particular safety specification. (This doesn't mean that someone can't sue your pants off if they shock themselves, so as Andy Fuchs notes, it is wise to comply with a standard for liability reasons.)

I figure since CE exceeds UL in it's standards, it cannot hurt to comply :dude.
I don't want to be sued for the $ 1.85 I managed to save from this chicken shack....no way !

[lastwinj]

I just don't understand why you don't gut it, and turn it into a REAL amp....like a HiWatt, or a Burman

send that 'thing' to me........I'll burn it's guts out w/ JP-5 and build you a MAN's amp

****ing women.....grow some ball's and buy real amps


amen!!!!!!!

[hasserl]

The pictures posted by the OP do look like crap, no way around that and I really don't have anything to add to that. But there is a weird atmosphere that hangs around a certain group of builders on the net that like to slag other builders. I saw it happen on the old 18watt.com board, and I see over at The Amp Garage, of which I was a member of from back when it was the Trainwreck Forum on a freebie Yahoo bbs. I haven't even been by there in a long time. Interesting link to a thread over there was provided back on the second page or so of this thread (notice Billy Yates' comments about his thread right here on this bbs where he got his backside kicked, because his claims were crap and we proved it). That shows the attitude that exists among this group of builders.

And that is what Micheal E was pointing out. Someone else said how nice it was to see a bunch of guys from 18watt over here. The problem is those guys blew it over on that board and now they want to do the same thing over here.

It's pretty pathetic to have to feel the need to slag someone else in order to build yourself up. It'll be too bad if the same group takes this place down the same lousy road. It's encouraging to see Scott P taking note of it here.

[MooreCowbelle]

Jackie, dude, that's FUNNY! :rotflmao:rotflmao

[lastwinj]

I still get service customers who request I DON'T put a 3-prong cord on a repair, since "it's not original".



i hope you show them where the door is?

germ

[dunara]

Hasserl wrote:
there is a weird atmosphere that hangs around a certain group of builders on the net that like to slag other builders
What group of builders exactly? Who do you mean? Lets have some names! Maybe they should form a group! If the original poster here set out to 'slag another builder', he hasn't made a very good job of it - we still don't know who he's talking about.....
The problem is those guys blew it over on that board and now they want to do the same thing over here.
I was a member at 18watt from day 1. The factors that brought it down were a)the legal threats that emanated from certain paranoid, witless manufacturers, none of whom I see in evidence here (or any of the people with whom they took issue), and b) the loss in focus of the group, which in some ways had run its course and the gradual change of membership towards those more interested in single-ended designs. There was no 'group of builders' that 'blew it' at 18watt.

I'm not sure what it is about this thread you and Scott P find so odious. A good few people here seem to have found it interesting and useful. There are far worse - more offensive, more poorly worded - threads appear on TGP all the time without attracting comments like yours and Scott's. I suspect you have it in for Allyn Meyers, the original poster in some way. I know Allyn from our 18watt days. His posts have always been well written, witty, informative and above all, interesting. He had no part in any way with the demise of 18watt.com. If there is some feud, please tell us so we can put these seemingly irrational put-downs into some kind of perspective.
Thanks, Colin

[hasserl]

Thank you for the fine example of just what I was talking about.

As for Allyn, I've never posted anything directed at him before, or responded to any of his posts that I know of. I do note that he's been the main poster involved in a few controversial threads here at TGP that have been locked and deleted. I suspect this will be another of them.

If one person is consistently involved in that type of thread it would lead me to wonder what it is about them that repeatedly puts them in these controversial situations. But until I read the thread over at The Amp Garage I really didn't have much of an opinion of him. Now I do.

[Bluewail]

A few years back I acquired my boutique dream amp, the best amp I had ever heard up to that point. I was actually out of work at the time and despite that, the recollection of the one evening I'd played this model was so vivid, I bit the bullet and bought a used one. I cannot describe how excited I was when it arrived. I fired it up and it sounded good, but not nearly what I recalled. Must be tubes, I says, and spent another small fortune on an NOS set of unobtainium EL-84's and 12AX7's. It sounded better but not remotely like what I'd experienced. So I opened up the chassis and was greeted by something very, very, very similar to what alleynmey posted. I was appalled and I immediately assumed the amp had been butchered along the way. So I called the manufacturer's representative and just as Andy Fuch's described, was blown off entirely as I was not the original owner. I recall the conversation vividly as I was willing, despite my dwindling finances, to pay whatever it took to get "that tone" again. No dice. I was on my own. I remember telling the guy that there was a builder's reputation a stake and I did not want to pass this amp on if it wasn't representative of the his craft. "Not his problem" I was told but he did suggest that when I sold it, I could order a new one through him. I passed on that offer, sold the amp with full disclosure of my reservations and learned a lesson. Not all the "quality" built into a product is visible or even audible. A lot of it has to to with the integrity of the builder and his willingness to stand behind his product.

To this day I don't know whether the amp I had was representative of this builder's work. Some say yes, some say no. You've all heard the arguments and seen the gutshots. I know now it doesn't matter. Goop and sloppy soldering are something I could learn to live with, but the lack of customer service and outright disdain for the owner of the product, be they the original buyer or not, that can't be modified or repaired once it's broken. Why even bother when there are guys like Andy Fuchs, Ed DeGenaro at THD, Tom Holmes, Don Grosh, Visual Sound, Pedaltrain, Dave Allen and a ton more who consistently exceed every expectation I have for service, advice and backing their product.

Does that make an amp like Andy's sound better than any one else's amp. Nope, that's all still in the eye or ear of the beholder. But you know the funny thing is every time I hear about the way he goes out of his way to make his customers happy, my ODS-50 sounds better. Weird, huh?

[plexi67]

Hi,

Well allynmey, you could have gotten respect by showing a picture, and then preferably one were fire may just occour as an example of something to check for.
Actually I and I think anyone would agree with you that customers would best be ware of what they buy and a tech would be able to tell............
Very good and well

However that's not what you ask in the first post.

To me that first post reads 'guess who makes this amp and how does that guy dare charge 6000$ for it?'

I don't see the good in such a discussion, nor to where that would have to lead.

I can say there's a very thin line between naming the manufacturer and asking others to name the manufacturer after having posted pictures of the amplifiers inwards and stated that it is has been accused of being a clone of a major manufacturer and that it costs 6000$- there are very few amps in that range and even fewer that would resemble the inward looks of the photos presented.
Having said that I have no idea what amp it is, though I assume some can guess.
Hm, let's see it's 6000$ channelswitching amp made in US and a presumably a clone of a famous amp and sold through dealers and worldwide........and it's not Fuchs, Two Rock,Bruno, Glaswerks..................continued

Do you see where this is leading? Any known manufacturer would have to deny any acknowledgement of the pictures-even if their amps would not fit the bill............sooner or later there would only be one left........

This leads to speculation and you know there are even those that wonder if you have posted a picture of a Mad Professor amp!!!!!

Well, sir allynmey, you are not spreading happiness

Anyone interested in how an MP is built may either do a search on this forum and others or visit
www.mpamp.com (http://www.mpamp.com)


If this thread had been merely a discussion of amplifier building techniques and in the tech section it could have been one thing and it could have been real good and held in a polite manner-while this thread seems more concentrated on the price of this amp and wether that is justified as compared to building techniques.

OK- it's not what I'd call neat wiring.............and yes there are a number of US amps that could not be sold in stores within EC, though musicians sneak them in anyway becuase they crave the sounds, the myths and percieved value..........oh yes there are some amps built in EC aswell that ..........well are not approved and cannot be, while most of those have very little popularity

http://i26.photobucket.com/albums/c149/VacuumVoodoo/TBWDR/tbwdr_shake_2.jpg

Some good old EC tolchocking for your amp-featured is the Tubewonder amp http://www.anacon-tech.com taking the vibrationtest......

allynmey are you Allyn Meyer associated with
http://ampbuildersguild.com/story2007Q1.htm


Carry on gentlemen
BJ
'Not Impressed' Bukka T Mönkkönen

Affiliations
www.bjfelectronics.com (http://www.bjfelectronics.com)
www.mpamp.com (http://www.mpamp.com)


A better test would be to just send it UPS and see if it survives.

[VacuumVoodoo]

A better test would be to just send it UPS and see if it survives.

No, UPS is for testing shipping boxes:D:AOK

[Mr. dB]

No, UPS is for testing shipping boxes:D:AOK

UPS could break a lead ingot.

[allynmey]

Mr Hasserl, with regards to:

"As for Allyn, I've never posted anything directed at him before, or responded to any of his posts that I know of. I do note that he's been the main poster involved in a few controversial threads here at TGP that have been locked and deleted. I suspect this will be another of them."

The threads that I have started or posted to have become controversial due to the same cast of characters attacking me. I ask you to Post here one of those controversial threads here that I started....
Maybe you mean the one where I posted wher the KF Memorial Amp will be displayed at the NJ Ampshow in answer to a dozen PM's here -or- perhaps some where people asked for technical advice and it was freely and happily given...were the those the controversial subjects you talk about? I believe they were locked by the mods when the same cast of characters attacked me personally. Maybe you could post the mean spirited, nasty things I've said here so we can all see them!

I didn't think so!

[scottl]

As a guy who knows and hopefully gets along well with not only the TGP guys, but my amp building buds, I definately see the bias against Allyn and the other "do-it-yourselfers". Somehow, their perceived lack of ethics draws the ire of the Trainwreck circuit police on TGP. Many of these guys were friends of Ken and the attacks and bias is way unwarranted. Just my unbiased 2C.

Allyn posted these pics to point out that it is important to look under the hood. He did not name the amp.

His intentions were not evil and he should be commended. I, as well as many people in this thread, will always want to see the build quality after viewing what may be inside the "boutique" chassis.

Can't we all play nice? ;)

[MBreinin]

For the record, my post WAS a joke, no harm intended to Mad Professor.

I am curious as to what this IS though. Why not just name the amp?

This would be no big deal if it sounded amazing and didn't break, but it did indeed break, and I am sure this sub-par quality control had something to do wth that.

Mike

[HeeBGB]

The pictures posted by the OP do look like crap, no way around that and I really don't have anything to add to that. But there is a weird atmosphere that hangs around a certain group of builders on the net that like to slag other builders. I saw it happen on the old 18watt.com board, and I see over at The Amp Garage, of which I was a member of from back when it was the Trainwreck Forum on a freebie Yahoo bbs. I haven't even been by there in a long time. Interesting link to a thread over there was provided back on the second page or so of this thread (notice Billy Yates' comments about his thread right here on this bbs where he got his backside kicked, because his claims were crap and we proved it). That shows the attitude that exists among this group of builders.

And that is what Micheal E was pointing out. Someone else said how nice it was to see a bunch of guys from 18watt over here. The problem is those guys blew it over on that board and now they want to do the same thing over here.

It's pretty pathetic to have to feel the need to slag someone else in order to build yourself up. It'll be too bad if the same group takes this place down the same lousy road. It's encouraging to see Scott P taking note of it here.


You accused me of being in this "group" not too long ago ONLY I haven't posted to this thread except now to point out how you continually accuse people of coming here to make trouble. You seem a bit paranoid. Better check the grassy knoll for shooters! :horse

[hasserl]

You accused me of being in this "group" not too long ago ONLY I haven't posted to this thread except now to point out how you continually accuse people of coming here to make trouble. You seem a bit paranoid. Better check the grassy knoll for shooters! :horse

Not sure I accused you of anything, I did ask you, in one thread, if you were involved in a previous thread. You said you weren't, and I accepted your word for it. I don't see why you were offended enough to bring it up again, and in the process add a personal insult. If I offended you before I apologize for incorrectly accusing you of being part of something you weren't.

But to the grassy knoll point, clearly there is an element out there that loves to jump on the bandwagon, heaping praise on the current cool guy and slagging the current bad guy. If you can't see that, or admit to it, then there's nothing more to discuss. But just go read the thread at The Amp Garage that was linked earlier in this thread. Here. I'll give you the link so you don't have to search for it: http://ampgarage.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=2607&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=30

That's not my imagination.

Allyn, sorry bud, but it's your mess. I'm not a Trainwreck cop, and I'm not a BBQ Boy forum scanner. I'm just a guy in this same community that finds it pretty sad that a portion of this community finds it necessary to attempt to tear down another in order to find some kind of self worth. It shows a definite lack of class, and you're only impressing the few simple minded that enjoy jumping on the bandwagon; or those that think you've got something of value for them. I'm not one of either camp, and I'll call BS when I see it.

[HeeBGB]

But to the grassy knoll point, clearly there is an element out there that loves to jump on the bandwagon, heaping praise on the current cool guy and slagging the current bad guy. If you can't see that, or admit to it, then there's nothing more to discuss. But just go read the thread at The Amp Garage that was linked earlier in this thread. Here. I'll give you the link so you don't have to search for it: http://ampgarage.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=2607&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=30


No! you DID accuse me of being part of a "group" coming here from 18watt, I believe it was, to start trouble. But that is not the issue at hand!

Right now YOU are the one causing trouble! If you don't like someone's opinion you accuse them of something! You are the one taking shots at Billy Yates because you don't like what he had to say about your "Current cool guy" ON ANOTHER BOARD I might add! It seems to me that you are the one with the adgenda here! You don't want anyone's opinion to differ from yours. If it does you try to discredit them!

[Scott Peterson]

Guys - Admin hammer time.

Chill out on the flame stuff back-and-forth. He said/she said arguments only get tempers flaring, get threads pulled and let folks claim being martyrs. To me, the lines are all clearly defined. Spend some time seeing what some of the characters in all this say about TGP members on other sites - like ampgarage - and then see them play 'nice' here. I am sincerely disappointed at the two-faced behavior I see; some from some longtime members here; but I am not your father so who gives a hoot about what I think.

But when you are here, don't go after other members here. Chill or be chilled. I have been posting on this thread; so I'll call in another moderator that is neutral and not involved on this thread to handle it; but they will handle it.

One and only warning.

[AmpMan1961]

WTF did I do?
Billy Yates

[MoRawk]

WTF did I do?
Billy Yates

Someone pointed you out as a communist sympathizer!

[allynmey]

For those who would like a recap of things I actually said in this thread instead of the hit squads interpetations, These are the post numbers. read them in a row and form your own opinion.
#1, 10, 27, 64, 95, 99, 156.
The real person who owns the amp personally chimed in on #25. Read them first then reread what was said by some members and even a mod.

Thanks all,

Allynmey

[mykljpao]

Tafkar, go back and read the post by Jackie Treehorn. Although I can understand some, who don't know Allyn, can read his initial post literally, yours is not the only interpretation of the first post. A number of posters indicated that they understood that the questions were not to be taken literally. And, once there was some confusion and speculation, Allyn fairly quickly reposted that he had no intention of revealing the builder's id either publicly or privately,in the event that it was not his original work.
He has explained his reasons for posting, to wit; in order to remind buyers to be diligent when making a high end purchase; either new or used.

I can undeniably confirm his intentions because the damn thing is mine and I spoke with him immediately upon his opening the amp. I might add that at no time did he, with me or in his posts, issue a blanket indictment of the builder. All comments revolved around this particular amp and it's evident shortcomings as displayed so blatently in the pics. All other comments about his intentions and/or integrity are nothing more than the conjecture and speculation of which so many have accused him of instigating. The fact remains that this is a VERY expensive piece of gear with some functional issues that will be difficult and expensive to solve due to the obviously chaotic build quality. It is MY thousands of dollars that were on the line with this amp and I'm convinced that Allyn's advice has prevented me from wasting a fair amount of hard earned cash. And we both; I as a consumer and he as a quality tech and builder were outraged at the build quality evidenced here. We were also both careful to specifically mention that it might not have been original to the manufacturer (although the internal chaos is uniform)and I was also careful to say that, in spite of what lay inside, the amp sounded great until it ceased to work as designed. This all strikes me as being fairly even handed while pointing out a problem without wholesale condemnation.

As Scott P said....could we lose the personal attacks? Stick to the amp problem or better yet....drop the whole thing entirely as I'm guessing that after 13 pages, people get the point either way.:horse

[plexi67]

it would be nice to have one that is known to be untouched,and all orignial,and have a pic of it to compare them.

[Lance Romance]

allynmey,

We dont know each other, but I want to say thanks for posting this. I believe your intentions were just, and I LEARNED from your pics about what is potentially out there at that price point.

On another note, I'm a little in the dark about the whoe amp controversies, but some people here are throwing a hissy fit over something small.

If some of the fit throwers have anything to do with this amp...look at it this way: The owner and tech both claim that the amp sounds great....just clean up the inside/curcuitry in the future. If you feel that you are a victim of guerilla marketing...just move past that obstacle. You are going to deal with critics everywhere you turn....just look at it as an opportunity to learn and improve.

On the other hand...how long did this maker think they were going to get away with this kind of workmanship?

[Dai H.]

This is no different than the RoHs issue in Europe and Japan. I understand Japan reputedly has new laws that affect old vintage gear. An old Les Paul with lead solder, sorry, cannot bring it into the country. It's hurt their vintage market substantially from what I've heard. I could be wrong, and would welcome input from afar, if I am.

As far vs old and new, I did mention in my post "new gear". Used and vintage should certainly be exempt, in a perfect world where politicians don't make these decisions. It would seem logical that an old amp would not be expected to comply with current codes, of-course since when did logic prevail ? I still get service customers who request I DON'T put a 3-prong cord on a repair, since "it's not original".

In any case, to return to topic: No, the subject amp in the thread would not comply with UL nor CE, for most of the reasons listed previously.

I don't think that was anything to do with leaded solder specifically. Basically what happened was that there was a mass revolt against applying the new electrical product certification to used equipment (which doesn't make sense and was a stupid idea anyway). Here's an article if you'd like to check it out:

http://search.japantimes.co.jp/cgi-bin/nn20060325a8.html%5DJapan

[scottl]

Tafkar,

I have no agenda. It is what it is. I don't get one red cent from the sale of any amp. Hence, no agenda. Dangerous sloppy wiring is just that. Fwiw, the guy who almost bought the amp in the pic is a friend of mine and I am sure glad he found out what he was getting into when Allyn opened it. I also doubt the amp in pic was modded as I have seen at least a half dozen of this same model, all similar. Just saying... I guess I should apologize for letting my emotions get the best of me about making sure people knew it WASN'T from one of the companies I mentioned. There are posted gut shots of those amps here on TGP or the company website and anyone can clearly see it is not one of them. That is all. I know the people at all those companies, even those that I don't "endorse". I wouldn't want speculation that they are the "guilty" party. But I am editing my other post to remove the manufacturer references as I certainly don't want any appearence of "bias"

The times I have spent hours assisting fellow TGPers, here at my house, with their amps for little or no $, just for altruistic motives, buys me a pass I think. To charge the $ in question and get that workmanship offends me like Ebay scams or the Nigerian emails. Shame on any builder who sells work like that, especially for premium prices.



I am sorry, but this is BS!!! This thread was intended to be a "guess the amp" thread. Just look at the first post and the title.

In my opinion the Allyn should have discussed this issue with the amp builder first before bringing it up on this board. It is possible that the amp in question has been modified and messed with by a third party.

Some people here seem to have some kind of hidden agenda. Including the Glasswerks and Fuchs endorser: trying very hard to ensure everybody knows which competitor built this amp without mentioning the name.







Not cool, Mr Lerner. :nono

[WesKuhnley]

Enough is enough. We've been around this bush 4 or 5 times now in the last few days, absolutely NOTHING has been accomplished aside from letting a few people know that there is shit craftsmanship at all price points. As I said before, there are multiple reasons to publicly show the amp for what it is, not the least of which is to prevent speculation by those of us who DON'T know what it is, about amps that ARE actually well made.

The builder needs to back up his product, or he deserves what he gets. Nuff said.

[StompBoxBlues]

Enough is enough. We've been around this bush 4 or 5 times now in the last few days, absolutely NOTHING has been accomplished aside from letting a few people know that there is shit craftsmanship at all price points. As I said before, there are multiple reasons to publicly show the amp for what it is, not the least of which is to prevent speculation by those of us who DON'T know what it is, about amps that ARE actually well made.

The builder needs to back up his product, or he deserves what he gets. Nuff said.

I would disagree with that assesment. We have also let people know that bad crafstmanship can be deadly, the reason there are standards, what kind of certification one would/could/should expect from an amlifier, and most importantly...according to some, anyone smart and capable of opening up an amp and taking a picture is automatically disqualified from publishing said picture. ONLY people that don't know a capacitor from a toilet paper roll, and hence that cannot even find out how to open up an amp are allowed to take the pictures they won't be able to take, and post them.

I think that's a lot.

[jca345]

Can anybody name this amp? Why does this cost over $6000????

http://i94.photobucket.com/albums/l92/allynmey/DSC08673.jpg

Build quality looks about identical to a Custom Cowtipper 45 I had on my bench last year.

[GuitarsFromMars]

I cannot believe I just read all of this.Some of you gentlemen,have way too much time on your hands.Allyn,now that everybody on the forum has had a free shot at knocking you out,thanks for the posts,informative from a conceptual standpoint,perhaps a deficiency(due to the rules here) in process related to the amp builder name being involved.I think your posts have been valid and I am now going to 'change the channel',TV metaphor intended...

;)

[StompBoxBlues]

jca345, so...you are trying to get the thread deleted? What part of the dissing thing didn't you fathom?

[Fuchsaudio]

Tafkar,

I have no agenda. It is what it is. I don't get one red cent from the sale of any amp. Hence, no agenda. Dangerous sloppy wiring is just that. Fwiw, the guy who almost bought the amp in the pic is a friend of mine and I am sure glad he found out what he was getting into when Allyn opened it. I also doubt the amp in pic was modded as I have seen at least a half dozen of this same model, all similar. Just saying... I guess I should apologize for letting my emotions get the best of me about making sure people knew it WASN'T from one of the companies I mentioned. There are posted gut shots of those amps here on TGP or the company website and anyone can clearly see it is not one of them. That is all. I know the people at all those companies, even those that I don't "endorse". I wouldn't want speculation that they are the "guilty" party. But I am editing my other post to remove the manufacturer references as I certainly don't want any appearence of "bias"

The times I have spent hours assisting fellow TGPers, here at my house, with their amps for little or no $, just for altruistic motives, buys me a pass I think. To charge the $ in question and get that workmanship offends me like Ebay scams or the Nigerian emails. Shame on any builder who sells work like that, especially for premium prices.

Shame on you Scott. Is it me, or does the bass tail resistor looks like a 1-K, so it's no longer a clone, even if it was a clone, even though it's not....err, ya-know what I mean ??? lol.

[scottl]

But pre Skyline TS had 1K on bass pot.... I have a nickel that says it has 100k plate loads and 1.5K cathode resistors too! LOL

Although the 270pf bright cap looks modded....

Shame on you Scott. Is it me, or does the bass tail resistor looks like a 1-K, so it's no longer a clone, even if it was a clone, even though it's not....err, ya-know what I mean ??? lol.

[HeeBGB]

But pre Skyline TS had 1K on bass pot.... I have a nickel that says it has 100k plate loads and 1.5K cathode resistors too! LOL

Although the 270pf bright cap looks modded....

Freakin' amp geeks! :D

[hasserl]

No! you DID accuse me of being part of a "group" coming here from 18watt, I believe it was, to start trouble. But that is not the issue at hand!

So I take it you didn't accept my apology. ;)

[BudLite]

I have read this thread....Is there not one of you who will name the builder? Why not ...out of respect for him, or as one of you mentioned ...you should contact the builder before posting.....
Let me ask you all this, does the builder respect his customers...?

[HeeBGB]

So I take it you didn't accept my apology. ;)


Maybe you should apologize to Billy Yates! No?

[ScottR]

:munch

[hasserl]

Maybe you should apologize to Billy Yates! No?

I don't see how that's your business.

[teleamp]

I have read this thread....Is there not one of you who will name the builder? Why not ...out of respect for him, or as one of you mentioned ...you should contact the builder before posting.....
Let me ask you all this, does the builder respect his customers...?

As other posters have guessed it is a Bruno S100, I would agree. There were 13 prototypes of the S100, this could possibly be one of those. Also, if Tony spend two weeks wiring one of these, I could see no problem with the price.

Great sounding amps that cost a little more, nothing new with that concept. This particular model is builder serviceable (so was the Dumble that was gooped up, that's another thread all in itself), though the rest of his products are very serviceable.

So, it pretty much is a matter of consumer education, you need to know what you are getting into.

Mike

[HeeBGB]

I don't see how that's your business.

But it's your business if Billy makes negative comments about a Weber product?

You are a hypocrite of the worste kind! You defended Doug Roccaforte's comments about Ceriatone even though Doug has no experience with Ceriatone products.

Again, you guys are blowing things out of proportion. Nobody has ripped Nik, except to criticize his use of the Trainwreck logo, and to mention that some of his parts are not top of the line. But that's not ripping him. No builders are afraid of his competition. What is it with you guys? Does everyone have to bow down and worship him for you to back off? What are you, his personal little army of 300? Give it a freakin rest.
Here's the thread link! And I didn't have to bring garbage from another board either! http://www.thegearpage.net/board/showthread.php?t=228226&page=16&highlight=Ceriatone

But now Billy makes negative comments about a Weber product based on HIS experience and you attack him. (Not the first attack either) So you are protecting "Your Boy Ted" AND THEN you come here and accuse some "Group" of doing what you yourself are doing! I guess the rules only apply to certain fortunate sons! If Doug's comments in that thread were about Weber they would have been pulled in seconds flat! If I were to attack someone the way you attacked Billy I would probably get demerit points or whatever they call them.

[BudLite]

Thanks Mike, I was thinking when reading this last night, what if someone got hold of a prototype or some project by the builder. Its possible, but the amp sure is a mess to look at....Yikes

[scottl]

I think the problem is that the prototypes "may" have been sold as production. I personally saw one with my own eyes that was sent in for a repair by the original owner who bought direct!

[BBQLS1]

Who sneezed in my amp!!!!!

[hasserl]

But it's your business if Billy makes negative comments about a Weber product?

You are a hypocrite of the worste kind! You defended Doug Roccaforte's comments about Ceriatone even though Doug has no experience with Ceriatone products.


Here's the thread link! And I didn't have to bring garbage from another board either! http://www.thegearpage.net/board/showthread.php?t=228226&page=16&highlight=Ceriatone

But now Billy makes negative comments about a Weber product based on HIS experience and you attack him. (Not the first attack either) So you are protecting "Your Boy Ted" AND THEN you come here and accuse some "Group" of doing what you yourself are doing! I guess the rules only apply to certain fortunate sons! If Doug's comments in that thread were about Weber they would have been pulled in seconds flat! If I were to attack someone the way you attacked Billy I would probably get demerit points or whatever they call them.

Dude, you really need to ease off the coffee. You've now insulted me twice in this thread. I've apologized twice to you for something I didn't even know offended you. Though I don't think there is anything that could be said to satisfy you I'll try; Billy's comments in that other thread, that my comments were addressing, were in regards to his posting here on this board and the people here on this boardthat responded to his posts. That makes his comments germane to this board. His connection to Allyn makes it germane to this thread. I know you won't agree, you won't even be able to recognize what I've said. Eh, what is new. It seems like I wasn't out of line after all when I accused you of being part of the rabid internet mob.

At least you've provided another fine example of just what I was pointing out earlier. Dare to cross with the favored and suffer the attack of the dogs. Mods, take note that I've been insulted twice now by this guy.

[RMcFarland]

As other posters have guessed it is a Bruno S100, I would agree. There were 13 prototypes of the S100, this could possibly be one of those. Also, if Tony spend two weeks wiring one of these, I could see no problem with the price.

Great sounding amps that cost a little more, nothing new with that concept. This particular model is builder serviceable (so was the Dumble that was gooped up, that's another thread all in itself), though the rest of his products are very serviceable.

So, it pretty much is a matter of consumer education, you need to know what you are getting into.

Mike

I am sorry, but the quest for tone does not allow for dangerous electrical devices being sold to the public. That amp isn't just sloppy, its hazardous.

[NitroLiq]

Believe it or not, theres an amp on ebay right now that has the filter cap board screwed on the outside of the chassis (behind the preamp tubes) with no cover! Imagine finishing up a gig and tucking away the power cord in the back of the head cab. *ZAP*. If anyone walks away from this thread with at least one thing, aside from the bickering, it's "know what your buying".

[big mike]

Oy. Enough of this bickering and witch hunt crap. It's ridiculous.
Keep the personal crap to emails and PM's and off the board.