Amp packing, now we gotta...

[teleamp]

OK, I learned something today. I received a JTM 45'ish head today in a trade deal. The seller had very carefully double boxed the amp and shipped it UPS.

When I was opening the inner box I could hear broken tube glass. I unpacked the amp and removed the back panel. Wow, the chassis was tweaked 3/4" from the weight of the transformers during countless sideways impacts during it trip from PA to TX. Also, due to the way the cabinet was constructed one of the KT66's was busted. I put some pressure one the cabinet and I could feel at least one loose joint. This amp was toast and it had been packed well, at least by most standards.

As I looked at the amp in disbelief, I noticed the corners of the chassis were not welded, not even riveted. Also, the weakest part of the chassis was where the mounting holes were, on the ends, combine that with the fact that the chassis isn't a rigid box and had huge transfomers.

So, how could this been avoided? First, this is for shipping amps that have folded non-rigid chassis. The only thing I can think of would have been to use styrofoam blocking to go between the sides of the chassis and the cabinet, then also support both transformers...this would have prevented the chassis from being totaled. Plus I would recommend 4" of dense bubble wrap on each end of the amp (the amp had 1" of padding on the sides in the inner box and 2" of padding to the outer box) in the inner box and 4" of padding on each end between the inner and outer boxes...This would have saved the cabinet.

The damaged amp needs to be dismantled, the chassis need repaired or replaced, the cabinet needs the tolex peeled off so it can bere-glued and then re-tolexed, plus a new matched set of power tubes.

Well, I just want to wrap up my birthday with a useful suggestion for the day.

Mike

[plexi67]

"""""The seller had very carefully double boxed the amp and shipped it UPS.""""


"""""So, how could this been avoided?"""""

Don't ship UPS!!!

they are a number one amp killer. I'm sure people have had bad luck with other shippers,when it comes to who is best.
But the only thing UPS is best at is destroying amps. It may cost more, but always try to ship so the least times its handled,by anyone.

[John Phillips]

I also have to say, that amp was not constructed well enough. I know many of us like hand-made amps, especially with aluminum chassis, but a lot of them simply aren't strong enough to survive being thrown around like that, and would probably fall apart on tour too. They even have long-term problems with sag from the weight of the transformers when they're not moved about much. Original Marshall JTM45s are very rarely found without chassis distortion. No matter how well you pack an amp like this, it's very hard to protect it because the inertia of the transformers alone is enough to cause damage.

But if you shipped a modern Marshall JTM45RI, or most other factory-made amps with a fully-welded steel box chassis - even with handling like that - it would survive.

I'm not excusing the way couriers throw packages around, but it's not all their fault, nor of the person who packed it.

[jca345]

And people wonder why I go to the trouble to build amps with chasses that are 1/4" thick Aluminum:D It's pretty hard to kill a "Golden Ratio"--it was designed to be pummeled by gorillas, pickup trucks, or just your average guitarist...

Sorry to hear about your shipping damages--that's a real bummer. UPS is not remotely nice to packages--no shippers really are. All you can do is package them up to UPS' specs and hope nothing happens. If something does, they should cover it--but only if you use their approved packaging techniques.

[JerryP]

No matter how well it's boxed the weight of the transformers can cause them to bend mounting brackets, chassis, or rip right off if the amp is dropped on it's side. I've had many amps arrive here with bent mounting and the box looked perfect on the outside. Because of the shape they usually stand the amps on their side. I always draw arrows on the box pointing to the top, not that they actually pay attention, but it might help and I figure it leaves me a way to file a claim if there's any damage.
The only sure fire way to prevent this damage is to build some transformer bracing in side the head box when you ship. This is a must do on an amp like a Marshall Major or anything with giant transformers like that.
Jerry

[plexi67]

"""""But if you shipped a modern Marshall JTM45RI, or most other factory-made amps with a fully-welded steel box chassis - even with handling like that - it would survive."""""

I'm going to have to start keeping pictures. I'm talking steel chassis.not thin aluminum. Some fenders with the chassis hooved out from the pull of the transformers. And alot of destroyed cabs, where the amps are dropped so hard, the fenders top mounting..tears loose from the sides..

I don't know, maybe its just a gamble in whatever you ship. and like was posted,to get a claim have the shipper store pack it, and ins.

[teleamp]

I also have to say, that amp was not constructed well enough. ...

I totally agree, the chassis contruction was the key factor to a lot of the damage, the chassis seems to be made of 18 ga mild steel. Then, since the bolt holes through the cabinet became slotted the packed amp became its own "dead blow" hammer, loosening the cabinet joinery.

http://i70.photobucket.com/albums/i115/teleamp/chassis2rev.jpg



I did tell the seller the same thing, the amp was not built sturdy enough for the size and weight of the transformers.

Mike

[teleamp]

The only sure fire way to prevent this damage is to build some transformer bracing in side the head box when you ship. This is a must do on an amp like a Marshall Major or anything with giant transformers like that.
Jerry


I agree, and the POINT of this thread. Double boxing has become the "acceptable" method of packing and shipping amps. And evendently, sometimes that's not enough protection, depending on the amp.

Mike

[John Phillips]

No matter how well it's boxed the weight of the transformers can cause them to bend mounting brackets, chassis, or rip right off if the amp is dropped on it's side. I've had many amps arrive here with bent mounting and the box looked perfect on the outside. Because of the shape they usually stand the amps on their side. I always draw arrows on the box pointing to the top, not that they actually pay attention, but it might help and I figure it leaves me a way to file a claim if there's any damage.
The only sure fire way to prevent this damage is to build some transformer bracing in side the head box when you ship. This is a must do on an amp like a Marshall Major or anything with giant transformers like that.
Jerry
You also have to put some inside the chassis, or a heavy drop the right way up can collapse the chassis - a friend of mind shipped a Hiwatt 400 from the UK to the US a while ago and that happened, despite him packing the space between the transfomer tops and the inside of the head box (luckily it wasn't too bad and the buyer was able to straighten it). This can be a real problem because there's often no way to do it without risking crushing the other components.

The way Marshall used to reinforce the transformers with extra steel brackets on the later JMPs and JCM800s is good - it keeps the transformer from twisting, and makes it much harder for it to put a lot of stress on one side, which is how most of the chassis distortion happens - by keeping everything flat, the load is distributed better. I've seen a couple of those which fell (unboxed of course!) from the top of a couple of 4x12"s, and still didn't rip apart. They're strong :). The odd thing is that most of them used brass transformer bolts not steel though, which can snap.

[donnyjaguar]

I've seen the baggage handling equipment at O'Hare. If UPS uses a similar automated sorting system, and I bet they do, its a miracle anything makes it through without being destroyed.

[dbx]

All these reports scare the **** out of me wanting to ship or receive an amp via carrier. Anecdotally, I've had really good luck with the double boxing or heavy bubble wrapping. The only incident was from a vendor, even with a custom built crate, UPS browned it...

What about shipping the amp "on it's head" upside down? Doesn't that somewhat lower the center of gravity? Regardless, proper padding and a shout out to the patron saint of shipped things are about the only things you can do...good luck getting resolution on the claim...

[NitroLiq]

Do you guys have any tips if your just sending a completed chassis with no head cab? Bubblewrap it, double-box it, go Fed-Ex and Pray? Mail the tubes separately?

[tonio19]

I've worked for several trucking/shipping companies including UPS and Conway, among others, although I hope I never have to do it again. All the double boxing with 4 inches, or more of bubble wrap and blue styrofoam and writing "Fragile" and putting big red "Up" arrows is all well and good. Sure, everything that you do to help protect your amp, or guitar, or whatever does help...but it is still just a crapshoot and an insurance claim is almost always a high percentage risk.
If I could show you guys even a one min. movie clip of what any average night on the loading dock is like at most shipping companies, well.... You would probably take a few days off from work and drive your package yourself. I'll try and give you an idea though. Lets say your double boxed amp gets dropped off at your friendly local shipper by you. A friendy person takes your box and probably uses a hand truck and walks it into a semi-trailer till the end of the night, before it gets packed into another trailer to begin its journey.
Now the fun begins. Later that night a very un-friendly guy, who is in a big hurry because there is a timeline when the trucks need to leave, and (most usually on a forklift) will unload everything out of the trailer and move it down the dock to a position outside of the trailer that it will be going into. Now I did say the word "Forklift" didn't I? Yes, this is how virtually all freight is moved, slammed and rammed into and out of trailers onto the loading dock, and then re-slammed and rammed back into other trailers which will (hopefully) be headed to your customers home town. Now, you have to understand a very simple principle first, and with that knowledge you can hopefully avoid the most common damage pitfalls. Now here it is. The guys running the forklifts have a whole bunch of different shaped pieces of frieght that they have to fit into a trailer. Imagine a giant jigsaw puzzle. Now whenever they see a nice square sturdy looking box with a flat top.... they fly towards it at full throttle and drop the forks and try and slid under it as they skid to a stop. (If they went slow, the box would just slide back) Most of the time this works, and then they tilt the blades back and lift the box and drive into the trailer and put it on the floor somewhere where it will now become a base to stack other freight onto. Now I did say most of the time, but sometimes the blade angle is wrong, or the box is slightly top heavy, and it justs get knocked over... real hard. Bang, your tubes just broke, and there is not even a mark on the box, yet. Ooops. So now your amp box is lying on its side, but hey, no problem. Now the forklift driver backs up about 8 feet and takes another stab at it, and now he has an even better stackable block of freight to use as a bottom load. Back into the trailer he goes. Now how boxes are usually dropped off inside the trailer is like this: The driver heads at full throttle towards the intended spot where your amp (now on its side) is to be used for a bottom block, and about 8-10 feet away slams on the brakes and drops the forks. Hopefully the box slides off the forks and is realatively close to where he wants it. Next he lifts the forks about 3/4 inch off the floor and pushes your box into position. Now hopefully nothing on the floor (wood splintered floor, aluminum torn and jagged etc.) causes your box to snag, because what happens when your box gets hung up, and the forklift is still pushing? Holes in boxes, crush damage, or worse.
But wait, the fun isn't over yet. Now he goes back and looks for something else to stack on top of your amp. Problem is, what happens if the freight he loads on top of your amp weighs 3-400 lbs? (Or more?) And 2 or 3 more pieces might get stacked on top of this growing pile, are you getting a mental image here?
Now your amp has not even traveled 1 mile yet towards your customer. Just imagine how many times this process takes place if your shipping cross country, and the trailers need to be broken down several times in different states to keep your box headed towards your soon to be very unhappy customer...
Now there are a couple of things that you can do that will help.
#1) Make your piece of freight as "Un- Stacker" friendly as possible. I've seen plenty of boxes where they taped a pyramid shaped box onto the top, and labled it as "Glass". Why? Because if it is not easy to stack something "On Top" of it... they will have to use it as the top piece of the puzzle, and it will not get crushed by heavier freight stacked on top of it, bouncing down the road at 65 mph for hundreds, or thousands of miles in some cases.
#2) Use method #1, and attach a little device called a tattletale. These are small devices that attach with double stick tape, and have a red outlined arrow on them pointing up. As long as they stay upright, the arrow stays clear, but if they get tipped over, the arrow turns red. And now the gig is up for the shipper, and they know it. No questions asked (usually) they are going to be paying a claim check if that arrow turns red. Even the angriest of forklift drivers know that they have to be cool with these packages, or king bossy-poo will be very unhappy with them as claims take away from profits. Only cost a few dollars extra for a tattletale, yet very few people even know about them.
#3) Ship your amp, double boxed as before, inside a wooded shipping crate, and on a pallet. Then attach a cardboard "Pyramid" and label it as fragile, "Glass". And attach a tattletale to the box inside, so everything stays upright. They will not like you when you drop this pallet/crate off because it is a pain in the neck to load around. SO-FU**ING WHAT?
When you ship your stuff on a pallet, your miles ahead of the game already, because you know that there going to use a forklift, right? Pallets are forklift friendly, boxes are not. Next, when you make your crate stacker un-friendly (this is the best way to keep things from getting crush damaged) they will have to load your stuff on top of the other guys amp, or, and this is most likely: It will get placed on top of what is called a load rack, which is placed inside the semi-trailers and will keep your crate separated from all the other nasty items regularly hauled with your $3000.00 amp.
Hope this helps. And just in case anyone is wondering, I didn't exaggerate even a little bit about how things are routinely done with most shipping companies, and I left out a great many things which I have seen a million times, like: Usually when a trailer is really loaded full, and they cant quite get the doors to close, maybe they just need an inch or 2, sometimes they need to "Compress" the load (shove everything forward) as much as a foot or more. You will appreciate this... an empty pallet, or a piece of plywood is stood up against whatever unfortunate piece of freight was loaded on the tail... and that angry forklift driver will ram the back of his forklift against the pallet or plywood and hopefully move everything in front of it forward enough to get the doors to close. I have seen guys back up and take 10-12 foot runs 6-8 times in order to get everything shoved forward enough to get the doors to close. And then I would start all over again on someone elses freight, in yet another nameless, faceless trail of destruction. And my bosses watched and said "Good job", now go start on another trailer.... This is the nature of the business, and no they don't like to pay damage claims, but they would rather pay a certain # of claims than have the bigger boss bitch at them for not getting trailers out on time, ***because they are fined for late delivery in most cases...*** Be forewarned, and use what I suggested and you will dramatically reduce your chance of damage.
P.S. Make sure that your crate is securely attached to your pallet, (and not with rope) nailed, or with wood screws would be best as I have seen Crates tied to skids which simply had the ropes cut off and the crate wedged into whatever space was available. Unless they had a "Tattletale" of course....A day or 2 before you are going to ship your stuff, go to the trucking/shipping company and ask them for a small pallet and a small crate. Many times they have them and will give them to you since your going to be shipping with them. Call around and you will find one. Or you could easily build one yourself out of several scrap pallets, which are usually free.
***This Should be a Sticky***

[Southbay Ampworks]

I just shipped out a Major Crunch head to a client in New York, shipped Fedex Ground.

Here's what I did to insure no issues, and yes my transformers are BIGGER than a JTM 45, too.

1) Take all the tubes out, pack them in newspaper, then inside a box.
2) Put another box, cut/fit/bent between the PT, and OT on the top, sides so they can't move.
3) Pack the amp with 2" of Insulfoam (1" thick, available at Home Depot) taped around the amp head, which I also had a Marshall cover for...
4) Put 2 inches of newspaper around the 2" of Insulfoam.
5) Wrap the entire amp head, insulfoam, newspaper in double corrugated cardboard box (I used one of my 4 speaker boxes from Weber).
6) Tape the beejesus out of the whole thing.
7) Insure for $3000, and send it off Fedex Ground with FRAGILE, GLASS written on it on all sides 2 inches high.

Result? Client gets amp in one piece, tubes are intact, inserts tubes, cranks amp, smiles appear.

This chassis was not welded at the corners, either so it was similar to what your JTM 45 chassis was made like.

Oh...and...


NEVER SHIP UPS!

[hasserl]

I hate to say this because I don't want to jinx myself, but I shipped several dozen amp chassis via FedEx Ground last year, didn't have one problem. Best rates too.

[photios]

I hate to say this because I don't want to jinx myself, but I shipped several dozen amp chassis via FedEx Ground last year, didn't have one problem. Best rates too.

+1 I have a FEDEX account and I ship everything that way (quite a bit BTW) and no problems (knock on wood) and they are much cheaper and faster than UPS.

[teleamp]

Probably the best way to ship an amp with questionable structual integrity would be to separate the head and cabinet.

Do you guys have any tips if your just sending a completed chassis with no head cab? Bubblewrap it, double-box it, go Fed-Ex and Pray? Mail the tubes separately?

This is what I would do: 1) bolt/screw the chassis to a thin plywood or heavy cardboard (this protects the innards), 2) bubble wrap the bulbs individualy, then box them and tape the box to the chassis, 3) wrap the chassis/tube box with several layers of bubble wrap, then double box it and ship it.

Mike

[tedw]

I have had the bent transformer mounting tabs happen to me, I would consider using a trucking company if I need to in the future and do the strapped to a pallet method with perhaps a little odd sized empty box shrink wrapped to the top of the amp's box so they can't stack on it.

[guitarmind]

I agree with everyone who said, DO NOT SHIP UPS !!. Even if your item is insured, it is almost impossible to collect from them. I used to use the post office, but after recent price hikes, they are out of the question. FedEx is the way to go right now. Of course no matter who you use, you still have to pack your amp like it was going to get thrown into a brick wall.

[allynmey]

I agree....never ship an amp UPS or Fedex!!!!!!! I have a commercial UPS and Fedex Account at my shop and ship around 1000 packages per year. i spend more on bubble wrap and boxs than on shipping it seems. I shipped an amp to a customer 3 months ago and it arrived damaged. here is the scenario...Customer ordes a chassis with no cabinet. The amp is made of welded 1/8 aircraft aluminum and weighs a ton with the transformers. I bolted the amp to an oversized (by 6") piece of hardboard to protect the underside. I put the amp in abag and surrounded by 2" of small bubble wrapping. I then surrounded the amp with 6" on all sides of large bubble wrapping. I filled the amp with foam 2" and put the 8" of bubbled wrap on all sides cocoon in that. When the customer received it and opened it, It was unwrapped laying in the box, the toggles were smashed off and not in the box. I called UPS and told them what happened (basically the dropped it from at least 30ft and opened it when they heard the hardboard crack. They cut off all the wrapping and dropped the broken toggles on the floor and never put them in the box.) amazingly, that was the only damage. 3 months later, I still haven't received my check even though it was insured for $3000.00. They keep calling asking me to refax the bill (7 times so far). Since UPS self-insures you can sue them for damages. In certain states you win triple damages if insurance companies don't pony up on claims.

Allyn

I repeat dont ship UPS!!!!!!

[plexi67]

"""""Now I did say the word "Forklift" didn't I"""""

I think you did say fork lift. I had a friend that got a combo amp,shipped in from UPS.. the fork truck had speared the box, through the amp and out the other side.. and it had the fork truck tire marks on the box..
AND they still delived it to him like that!!!

thanks for posting,that was highly informative.

[s2amps]

I had an amp speared once too. Right through the grill cloth ans speaker. UPS actually denied the claim because they said it wasn't packed well enough. They also denied that the rectangular hole was created by a forklift blade.

Something I've learned lately deals with flight cases. No amount of double boxing has ever worked for me. We ship all our Category 5 amps in flight cases. But that seems to just be a license to abuse it. While shipping amps in flight cases, I have...

I've had amps arrive with the magnet literally broken off the speaker. I've had even 2mm welded Al chassis bent and warped. I've had the bolts sheared off transformers. I had a speaker with an ejected voice coil. And amps with busted corners.

The tattle tale idea is a good one. We receive freight with those on it at the office. That might be enough on its own to solve the problem.

[VacuumVoodoo]

Ok, I'm intrigued. Where do I get these tattletale thingamajings ?

[trisonic]

Best boxed amps I've seen have been from Dave Z. at Maven Peal.
Wooden shipping crate (screwed together) complete with skids for fork lifts and the interior lined snug with dense shipping foam plus steel carrying handles - he's still had a few issues because of inertia damage.

Best, Pete.

[teleamp]

I guess a road trip isn't out of the question on valuable vintage gear.

Mike

[justonwo]

You should ship the chassis and head box separately. The problem of torque being applied where the transformers meets the chassis comes from the fact that the chassis is being held in place. If you pack the chassis as one unit, it's no longer held down, so any inertia from the transformers just causes the entire chassis to shift a bit.

1) Chassis separate with lots of bubble wrap and foam to absorb impact. Double boxing provides no additional protection if you don't have a layer of foam or bubble wrap in between the boxes.

2) Tubes removed, boxed, and bubble wrapped.

3) Chassis bubble wrapped and shipped in its own box.

The idea here is the egg inside the suitcase. You can wrap it in 20 boxes, but if there's nothing to absorb the impact, it's going to break. Put that egg in a suitcase full of foam and you could drop it off a building.

[NitroLiq]

Is this the "Tattletale"?

http://www.uline.com/Browse_Listing_1053.asp?desc=Shockwatch%26trade%3B

or this

http://www.uline.com/Browse_Listing_1051.asp?desc=Drop+%28N%29+Tell

[2tones]

#2) Use method #1, and attach a little device called a tattletale. These are small devices that attach with double stick tape, and have a red outlined arrow on them pointing up. As long as they stay upright, the arrow stays clear, but if they get tipped over, the arrow turns red. And now the gig is up for the shipper, and they know it. No questions asked (usually) they are going to be paying a claim check if that arrow turns red. Even the angriest of forklift drivers know that they have to be cool with these packages, or king bossy-poo will be very unhappy with them as claims take away from profits. Only cost a few dollars extra for a tattletale, yet very few people even know about them.

I bought a dozen of these after getting a new amp dropped, and I sent 4 of them to the manufacturer (3 were for him to keep). So he sticks ALL 4 of them on the replacement amp's box, and ships it. When the box arrived, ALL 4 tattletales had been ripped off (they were taped on in addition to the sticky backing). You could clearly see where someone used a knife to cut the tape covering them.

[VacuumVoodoo]

Well, I'd apply these both to the outside and inside of the box.

I'll be ordering some too even though I never had any problems shipping half way across the globe.