Need speaker help...throw me a bone

[guitarded_1]

Yeah I know...it's another "suggest a speaker" thread. After searching all of the threads, I still can't find any info that pertains to my situation. In most cases, it seems like a guy will ask for speaker suggestions (with not much in the way of criteria), and then everyone will suggest their favorite speaker. Hopefully I can provide (and receive) a little more detail.

My current speaker cab is a Mojotone 4x12 loaded with 2 Weber Blue Dog ceramic 30's and two Weber Silver Bell ceramic 30's in an X pattern. Now that these speakers have broken in, I'm really not digging them. This is in no way a negative reflection on Weber...just a personal taste thing. I have a feeling that most guys would really dig the exact characteristics that I dislike about these speakers.

To be specific...it's the character of the high end. No matter what amp I use, the high end has a very pronounced breakup. I wouldn't necessarily call it "raspy" or "grainy", but the high end imparts a texture to the tone that I wish wasn't there. It's not a gradual thing either. When I dig in to the strings, this high end texture jumps out or "barks". Most guys would likely welcome this as being a very musical sound, but it's not my thing.

I am looking for a speaker that doesn't add extra texture to the high end. I'm not looking for a dark speaker. Not a big fan of jazz/fusion tones. In fact, I want plenty of high end clarity...but I want it to be fairly clean, smooth and non-abrasive on the top end. The speaker needs to be able to do clean and flat out rock with complex vintage character and vibe. I need tight bottom end, full midrange character, and that smooth, clear top end. Basically, a full, meaty speaker that doesn't wear the ears out. Did I throw in enough thoroughly subjective and meaningless adjectives?

My main amp is a Matchless Phoenix that I crank to sound like the thickest, juiciest Marshall ever.

I am anticipating many Scumback suggestions, but would love to hear others. Thanks.

[Dave]

The Eminence Swamp Thang has the characteristics you're looking for IMO.

[doc]

Several items mentioned are a little confusing, but I'd guess Texas Heats would fill the bill. If you want a little more "Marshall crunch" maybe Tonkers. The confusing parts are "not a big fan of jazz/fusion tones" and "complex vintage character and vibe" juxtaposed with "doesn't add extra texture to the high end". To me, the hi fi EVO cleans would fit, except for the lack of vintage character and vibe and the fact that that is the choice for jazz/fusion tones. One other speaker to consider is the Cannabis Rex - its smooth with a bit of complexity to the high end, which is present but never strident. It is not as "clear" as the Texas Heats, however. The Red White and Blues would be another consideration. I however would probably like your current setup!:)

[rockon1]

Well a good well broken in G12H-30 is well balanced with a strong bottom, smooth high end and has a vintage vibe. Tonespotter is similar with more mids. Neither are dark and both have a smooth top end-AFTER break in. Bob

[guitarded_1]

The confusing parts are "not a big fan of jazz/fusion tones" and "complex vintage character and vibe" juxtaposed with "doesn't add extra texture to the high end".

I guess the bottom line is that I don't want a speaker that is too dark (Jazz/Fusion/Dumble vibe) or too bright. I believe that you can have plenty of high end without the high end having it's own texture/breakup. I love a warm, pushed speaker...but when the highs start to break up and "spit"...then I'm not digging it anymore. While they do have a reputation for being dark, I wonder how the 65 watt Celestions would sound in a rock context???

[Scumback Speakers]

I am anticipating many Scumback suggestions, but would love to hear others. Thanks.

I'd need more info to make a suggestion, actually. Let me know if you want my input. Good luck. :)

[doc]

I guess me continuing to post now that an expert is on scene is a bit like Jimmy Olsen trying to save the girl now that Superman landed, but I'll hazard a few more thoughts. Based on your response, I'd say you DO want a clean American style speaker. The dark, thick Dumble type tones you refer to are more a product of high gain preamp overdrive than the speaker - if you put a Marshall through the same speaker there would be a lot more high end. You want something that is fairly uncolored but not bland. I'd probably try a Red White and Blues. Don't shy away from dialing in your preamp to get it in the right zone. Break it in for a while before deciding to move on, sometimes the treble is a little tizzy to start. If you want something with a more British character (I don't think you do) the Scumbacks have a reputation as the best thing going in that genre.

[Hacksaw]

I found the eminence to be a darker speaker overall, personaly.. I have the gov/man-o-war mix.. and I did the non mix cab thing. they just where not for me and my ears. I moved back to all celestions. then I called Jim the scumback guy.. I got a great balance now, I think. ( I have 10 of his speakers now..)

I been through a bunch too! SO MANY to choose from! lol... I did the v30's, greenbacks, h30's, ok pretty much all the celestions.. a few eminences, and found myself in scumbag territory. I mean scumbacks. lol

Good luck.. speakers are not easy!

[gkoelling]

My knowledge of, and experience with, different speakers is very limited.

That said, isn't the Weber California supposed to be a speaker that doesn't color the tone of an amp?

[doc]

Some Eminences can be a bit dark, but the ones you reference are all British style designs, the American style are voiced differently. Actually, the Stonehenge might be a good choice also for this application.
Weber Californias would work well here also. There are a few Celestions that might fit, like the G12H-30 already mentioned, but I really think given his comments he'd like an American voiced speaker. If you want to spend more, try an old Electrovoice or JBL.

[mad dog]

The trick might be to figure out which of the two speakers in there are not doing it for you. Assuming you can keep one set of two in place, two Cali ceramics w/paperdome or 2 CRex might work for you. The Cali has a real nice high end breakup and drive tone. As does the CRex. Some consider the CRex dark ... that's a judgement call. They are smooth and warm, great tone. 4 might be overkill, but 2 might be just right.

[Scumback Speakers]

I guess me continuing to post now that an expert is on scene is a bit like Jimmy Olsen trying to save the girl now that Superman landed, but I'll hazard a few more thoughts. Based on your response, I'd say you DO want a clean American style speaker. The dark, thick Dumble type tones you refer to are more a product of high gain preamp overdrive than the speaker - if you put a Marshall through the same speaker there would be a lot more high end. You want something that is fairly uncolored but not bland. I'd probably try a Red White and Blues. Don't shy away from dialing in your preamp to get it in the right zone. Break it in for a while before deciding to move on, sometimes the treble is a little tizzy to start. If you want something with a more British character (I don't think you do) the Scumbacks have a reputation as the best thing going in that genre.
I don't consider myself a speaker expert, doc. I would say I have a lot of experience with the Celestion style tone.

That said, the Dumble style tones are achieved through speakers with a large dust cap to diffuse the highs slightly. Not sure of what Eminence offers (they have so many), but ones that fit that description are the G12-65 or Scumback M75-LHDC for a medium magnet model, or the Classic Lead 80 and Scumback H75-LHDC for the heavier magnet type.

The M style will have more mids, less highs, and low end. The H style will have more low end, flatter mids, a bit more highs and put out more volume due to the H magnet making the speaker more efficient.

Again, your tone needs are quite wide, and without knowing your guitar/pickups, fx used, gain style/OD used, etc. that your best bet (from me) would be the H75/H75-LHDC mix. If you were near LA, I'd be happy to setup an appointment for you to try it, as I have these speakers loaded into a cab at Revolution Guitar.

[guitarstan]

Hey Decatur GA, I'm from Dekalb County GA still have friends in Decatur. I moved and retired to Alabama recently, Auburn, little college town lots of music venues and young music hungry students.

OK small talk over. Uh, you might want to visit the Dr Z amp forum "Cabs and Speakers" section...lots of very useful professional commentary.

I expect you have already done this but before removing your speakers try a few different heads just to eliminate the possibility your head is the problem. That done then come to my studio and check out individual speakers. I have a nice collection of mostly alnicos, oops did I say a bad word :crazyguy. I have a few ceramic Hemp cone Tone Tubby's and they are nice. There are no stock speakers anywhere except in the Ampeg bass amp. Alnico's: Weber, Tone Tubby and Celestion and ceramics we have Tone Tubby with the obligatory Celestion Vintage 30's.

This is one very subjective topic with far too many variables. So I bought a bunch of cabinets tossed the stock speakers and pulled out the credit card. I will soon be selling off a few of the redundancies to fund new projects now that I have landed on what works for me.

If you ever find yourself south of Atlanta on I-85 drop by.

http://i65.photobucket.com/albums/h212/guitarstan/IMG_0004-1.jpg

http://i65.photobucket.com/albums/h212/guitarstan/Cab_Backs.jpg

Ah yes and a few vintage guys for experimentation or special projects.

http://i65.photobucket.com/albums/h212/guitarstan/IMG_0009.jpg

[guitarded_1]

I don't consider myself a speaker expert, doc. I would say I have a lot of experience with the Celestion style tone.

That said, the Dumble style tones are achieved through speakers with a large dust cap to diffuse the highs slightly. Not sure of what Eminence offers (they have so many), but ones that fit that description are the G12-65 or Scumback M75-LHDC for a medium magnet model, or the Classic Lead 80 and Scumback H75-LHDC for the heavier magnet type.

The M style will have more mids, less highs, and low end. The H style will have more low end, flatter mids, a bit more highs and put out more volume due to the H magnet making the speaker more efficient.

Again, your tone needs are quite wide, and without knowing your guitar/pickups, fx used, gain style/OD used, etc. that your best bet (from me) would be the H75/H75-LHDC mix. If you were near LA, I'd be happy to setup an appointment for you to try it, as I have these speakers loaded into a cab at Revolution Guitar.

Good input. I would actually love a vintage sounding, British-style speaker...but again...my main concern is specifically with the high end. Better yet, my main concern is with the quality of the high end, as I love plenty of high end. I would love a vintage greenback-sounding speaker without a high end that is grainy, raspy, or otherwise too forceful in the way that it colors the overall tone. I have played some vintage Marshall cabs that sounded great, but I had minor issues with the bottom end being a bit loose, and the top end breaking up a bit too much. I definitely dig a "woody" sound. I guess I'm looking for a big, muscular vintage Celestion-type speaker.

[guitarded_1]

If you ever find yourself south of Atlanta on I-85 drop by.



I may just have to do that. Thanks for the invite.

[guitarstan]

Check out Weber 1225, designed after the G12M only with better bottom end.

[guitarstan]

I may just have to do that. Thanks for the invite.

Pretty much anytime......I'm retired....:p....just sit around and play geetar all day long.....:RoCkIn.

(334) 354-7258