Digital Delay Poll

[mrmega]

I admit it, I am a tone FREAK.

I am going to be the guitarist for an artist I am producing while doing showcases, so I making a board just for this band. For the sake of reference, the guitar tone will be a cross of modern heavy rock, modern alt rock, with moments of blues rock.

For this gig I will play mostly humbuckers (Les Paul Customs amongst others)through non Fender tube amps. For this gig I am after a modern tone and will try to stay away from the tried and true tones of the 60's and 70's, Stevie Ray Vaughn's Tone, The Woman tone and the Brown Sound. I want to sound like me!!! ;)

I will play rhythm, lead and some slide.

I prefer analog and tubes at all costs EXCEPT when I use delays. I tend to like clear and clean delays, and most analog delays strike me as too dark or muddy. This is a bad way to explain it but i think you get the idea.

I am not going for subtle effects only. Some of these effects need to be quite pronounced and very noticeable!

My board (actually mostly racked and hidden) will consist of pedals such as (not listed in order)

WH1 Whammy
Envelope (prolly the old DOD modded for true bypass with some component/tone upgrades)
Teese RMC3 Wah (2007)
Double DGTM OD
Custom Boutique Double OD Pedal
Keeley Modded SD-1
Analogman KOT
Effector 13 Fuzzes (TBD & Rocket and another one)
Original MXR Chorus (with the wall plug)
Original Ibanez CS9 Chorus
DeArmond Twister Phaser
Original TC Electronics Phaser
Shannon Phaser
Shannon Univibe
Aria FL-10 Flanger (really great pedal btw)
Washburn AF-4 Flanger
Custom Boutique Tremelo (Chopper, stutter and vintage sounds)
And either the Paradox or ADA FLanger


Now what I need is a versatile delay:

1)Backwards delays and echoes,
2)Short, medium & long delays,
3)Modulated delays (that I can also twist knobs and create "manual effects"),
4)Hard core echo's
5)Tap tempo
6)Expression Pedal input

I do not need to have a record & loop function but I am not against it.


I haven't heard an analog delay that will do all these things, and like I said, I normally prefer digital delays so it looks like I only have a few choices.

I am leaning towards a Line 6 DL4 with the Keeley Mod but I am nervous about everything I have read about the unreliability and tone suckage when engaged.

So gear heads, what say you? See the poll and please feel free to suggest your own favorites, experiences and stories!

[wolfpack]

TC2290, you're done

there's a reason why alot of pro's still use this one

[Wooley]

...I prefer analog and tubes at all costs EXCEPT when I use delays. I tend to like clear and clean delays, and most analog delays strike me as too dark or muddy. This is a bad way to explain it but i think you get the idea...

I understand you, perfectly. I personally am an analog or analog-sounding delay guy, but even for me there are many applications for clean true repeats. I actually think they are a thing of beauty, really a distinct entity from the analog delay sound. Just not my sound (at least not all that often). Anyway, I really loved my Analogman modded DD-3 a LOT. It gives you the option clean digital, medium decay, and analog-like decay, with long delay times, etc. If I'm not mistaken, his modded-DD-6 has all the features you're looking for and will take up very little space on your board. It has 5 seconds of delay, tap tempo, and reverse delay, and he will mod it for an expression pedal as well if you would like. Here is a link: http://www.analogman.com/boss.htm#dd6, and you can "buy it now" here: http://www.buyanalogman.com/ProductDetails.asp?ProductCode=AM+Boss+DD6%2Fhicut . Happy hunting, and good luck in your new endeavor.

[Lucidology]

No matter what I try (buy)...
Always end up putting the stock Boss DD-3 back on my board ...
So bascially I've given up searching for something better ...

[rydia is hot]

1)Backwards delays and echoes,
6)Expression Pedal input


these, especially 6, rule out the dd20. it has reverse delay, but the dl4's reverse blows it out of the water. the dd20 doesn't really do 100% wet, which is a bummer for rev. delay. also, the dd20 has a control pedal input, but it's pretty much just a tap tempo in.
i have 2 dl4s and a dd20. if i could only have one, it'd be a dl4.

reliability - i've had one of the dl4s for 5-6 years, and it's never even hiccuped. i use the hell out of it, too. my other one i've had for about a year, and same story. if you do have troubles, i've read that taking the main chip out and popping it back in resets everything but saves your presets, so that's good to know (although not that handy in the middle of a gig).

if you are truly a tone freak, then i'd go with the keeley mod. it's not a night and day difference, but it pretty much fixes all the little things that bug freaks about the dl4. the "tone suck" is pretty much just a pretty small volume drop when you engage the dl4 while it's set to true bypass mode.

if you have it set to the non-tb mode where trails repeat after you cut it off, there's no volume dropped when engaged (which i assume is because the volume drop is there all the time, but my board is big enough with a few good buffers in it that i'm not worried about it). personally, i hate tb delays because of the way they kill the delay trails. just my taste; some people hate trails.

some upsides to the dd20 are that you can tap the tempo in before engaging the delay (have to engage delay and then tap it in on a dl4). also, with the dl4, you get 3 stored settings, no manual mode. if you use an exp pedal, you can kind of get 6 - each preset will have it's stored setting for toe up and toe down on your exp pedal, but it's limited to the same model setting. still very cool to use the exp pedal to manipulate the number of repeats (kick it into self oscillation - something the dd20 doesn't do) or delay time for spaceship sounds.

with the dd20, you get 4 stored sounds and a manual mode, so you can get 5 different sounds that aren't limited to the same delay model.

all in all, both are great. anyway you can try before you buy? i know that's the most obvious and annoying advice, but still...

anyways, i could probably type another five paragraphs and still not have said everything. if you have any other specific questions, feel free...

hope i might have helped out a little...good luck!

[KustietheKlown]

Just get the DD20. it's all you will ever want or need in a digital delay pedal.

[El Gallo Negro]

The DD20 does do 100% wet in reverse mode.

[Steven]

The DD20 is very good. I´ve been using mine for over two years of heavy giging without any problems. However, you will get four preset sounds + one manual setting = five sounds for live work (with tap tempo function). If you are really into having lots of different delays - and wanna have your pedals racked then you might be better of with a rack mounted unit with an additional midi pedal. The DD20 needs to be stepped on when using it live for any flexibillity IMO.

[mrmega]

Lots of great opinions, thanks!


I will have a smaller board on stage that the WH1, RMC3 Wah, Volume, Delay (if I go with a pedal), bypass switches and stuff I need to change settings for on the fly will be on.


So far, the Boss is a clear winner in the poll and based on the numbers to now, it doesn't seem like the Line6 has a high percentage of dedicated users. This is turning out to be quite interesting!

[ARch]

I've got a DD-6 and a Line 6 DL-4 on my board. I have never had any problems at all with my DL-4 (4 years running), and just purchased an expression pedal to expand the functionality a bit.

I mainly use it for looping (28 seconds when half-speed is engaged; things still play back in real time :D), but also have 3 normal presets - a good verb, a good rhythmic dotted 8th, and then either a Slow Gear clone setting, or reverse/etc.

I've never noticed a volume drop or tone suck with mine, but I did just buy an MM4 with a noticeable volume drop, so I know what it sounds like. I think I got one-off DL-4 with none of the regular issues.

I use the DD-6 as basically a "4th" preset, or for the WARP function.

[pear gage]

The dd-3 was one of the first effects I bought when I was 16 in '86 and wanted to be the Edge. That was over 20 years ago! It was over $200 if I recall and it was a lot of money for a kid back then. It was the bleeding edge of technology at the time and now I'm eagerly waiting for the eventide timefactor which is probably about the same price as a dd-3 in '86 when adjusted for inflation.

[Pa'ani]

I'm using a Boss DD-5 Delay on my L.A. Sound Design pedalboard, a DD-20 Delay on my Trailer Trash pedalboard, and a Boss DD-3 Delay is on my small pedalboard rig.
They all work great for their intended applications!

[hbentley]

man, the dd20 is one of the only pedals that's hyped up here at the gear page that i just don't get. the only things i felt like it had over the dl4 were stability and the ability to set the exact bpm (for those whose bands play to clicks). i didn't like the buffer at all and the pedal overall just seemed less musical than the dl4. that said, i'm really hoping to find something that covers as much ground as the dl4 so i can fill it's hole (sold mine a while back). i wish that eventide pedal would hurry up and come out!!

[John Phillips]

if you are truly a tone freak, then i'd go with the keeley mod. it's not a night and day difference, but it pretty much fixes all the little things that bug freaks about the dl4. the "tone suck" is pretty much just a pretty small volume drop when you engage the dl4 while it's set to true bypass mode.Sorry, but I have to strongly disagree here. The tone suck is the digitization of the entire signal path, including the dry part, and IMO it totally screws up your tone - especially if it comes after distortion. The latency inherent in the digitized dry signal also makes it unusable in a parallel FX loop unless you set either the amp or the pedal to 100% wet - if that matters for your application (this applies to Mesa amps and possibly others even with the loop mix set to maximum BTW). I haven't tried the Keeley mod, but since it can't possibly address the issue of digitization (that's inherent in the way the pedal works), it can't fix it, no matter what else is improved.

That, and the fact that the loop-sampler mode screwed up at a gig, on mine - although to be fair I never had problems with the normal delay modes - are the main reasons I don't have it any more.

I agree, it had some great sounds - I especially liked the Sweep Echo and the Reverse - but I don't miss it now.

FWIW, I'm not totally sure the DD-20 doesn't digitize the dry signal too - I haven't tried one with my own rig - but the DD-2,3,5 and 6 definitely don't. Neither does the Akai Headrush, if looping is a priority for you.

Personally, given that you can easily fit three separate Boss (or other, eg Digidelay) pedals in the same floor space as a DL4 makes the all-in-one versatility a bit questionable too. You can probably do more varied effects on the fly with three different pedals (eg DM-2, DD-3, DD-6).

[Red Suede]

I've not had a problem with my DL4 before or after the Keeley mod. The MM4 was horrible, though, especially with the Leslie patches, which sounded really good to me, but they went away under distortion. Sent it to Keeley, problem solved. By the way, I seem to remember that the Line 6 pedals (at least the MM4 and the DL4) are meant to go straight in, not into an effects loop.

[drbob1]

If you're putting most of your effects in a rack anyway, go with a rack delay. Sonically, flexibility-wise and reliability-wise it'll blow the line 6 stuff out of the water. I'm partial to Eventide, but the TC, the Yamaha and the Lexicon stuff are very good, too...

[stvnscott]

I would go rack. TC or Lexicon. Actually, it almost sounds like you want a G System to tie all that stuff together.

If you go with the DL4, buy at least 2 of them. Some are really good. Some are really bad. You never know. I've been let down enough that I only use one in the studio for extreme and crazy effects I can't get with a plugin.

My live pedal board has a DD3 and an H20 set to different delay times. Maybe I'm just a simple man?

[soybean]

Whatever you buy, get one with tap tempo. Once you get used to it, it's hard to play without it.

[mrmega]

Lots of great opinions, info and advice. I really appreciate it. Thank you to everyone!

I did manage to add to my purchase list several of the units recommended from this thread. Should I thank you or curse you because of the money its going to cost me ? ;)


Seriously though, thank you very much for your input.


For this particular rig I am staying away from rack units (line level) and trying to keep everything at pedal level.

However, the TC rack unit is definitely on my short list now and I have eliminated the Line 6, which is kinda sad in a way because the concept and features list seems excellent. I just don't want to take a risk when so many people have had a bad experience with reliabilty.


I am going to test drive the Boss this weekend as long as my local dealer has one in stock. I am also going to try and get my hands on an Echolution.

On the horizon the Eventide and the TC Nova delay look intersting. I plan on taking a look at those units on the web tonight.

If we were going to talk about pedals, and eliminate the Boss and the Line 6, what pedal would you get and why? Needs to have:

1) Digital
2) Echo
3) Reverse
4) Tap Tempo
5) Modulation (Width and Depth controls)
6) Reliable

[drfrankencopter]

Check out the Pigtronix Echolution....

1) Digital-> Yes, up to 20 seconds
2) Echo -> Yes, with a controllable low pass filter for 'browning', and a drive control for adding compression/distortion
3) Reverse -> Yes
4) Tap Tempo -> Yes, but not in modulation mode...but expression pedal can control time in modulation mode
5) Modulation (Width and Depth controls) -> You mean speed and depth, right? If so, yes, there's LFO speed, and depth, and also tremolo dept (a much cooler feature than it sound like initially)
6) Reliable -> time will tell, but it looks pretty sturdy (I've had mine apart)

The 2290 is a nice unit, but it has it's flaws too including:
-single tap for tap tempo (or 'Learn' as it's called on the 2290, not averaging
-no expression pedal support (except via midi possibly)
-Induces noise in your guitar if you play too close to it (it's all those leds on the display...you only notice this when you're editing presets with your guitar on)
-No multi taps...single delay only (stereo though with ping pong, and modulation including tremolo)


Cheers

Kris

[orogeny]

Check Music123 for the dd20. I just got one for 180 bucks.

It is my last delay.

Tone to the bone.

[Fixxxer]

I would suggest a used TC vintage, and maybe a keeley or analog boss pedal. You can do it right with those two.

Do you really need the reverse delay?

[mrmega]

Do you really need the reverse delay?

Yeah, a few of the songs have reverse delay as prominent parts so for this board, its important :)

[Mitch T]

The Line6 Echo Park has it all too, although modulation is controlled only by a single knob. The overall construction seems better (more reliable) than the DL4 and it saves space to use another delay unit :cool:

[drfrankencopter]

This thread makes me think (again) about how Line-6 dropped the ball with the DL-4. It's got such potential as a delay unit. Here's the mods that I would suggest in case any Line-6 folks happen across this:
1. Forget about digitizing the whole signal (dry included)...I know Line6 did this to have the mix setting storable in the preset, but it compromises the sound too much. Instead, they could have used two VCAs (voltage controlled amplifier) in the output stage going to a summing amp and could have the control voltage controleld by the microprocessor (and hence have mix level stored in presets)
2. More presets....I'd want 20 preset banks, each with 3 sub-models available, and tap tempo linked to all 3 presets on the switches at one time. This way you could use 3 different delay sounds on one song, linked to one tempo.
4. BPM display...useful for setting time in a repeatable fashion.
5. Ability to have tap tempo independant from the expression pedal. The expression pedal morph function is brilliant, except it will change delay time as you sweep (except if you fiddle around with the knobs to match delay times, or remove and re-insert the expression cable)
6. Rotary encoders with LED rings...so you know where the knob settings are for a given preset.
7. LCD display of the parameters underneath each knob.
8. Dual expression pedal control (e.g. one for wet dry blend, and another for the preset 'morph').

That would do it for me....man I'd pay almost $1K for something like that!

Cheers

Kris

[DavidS]

I prefer a rack unit thru an effect loop with amps so equipped. Use a blackface Intellifex with my Fuchs, DD-20 on pedalboard for Marshall/ Fender amps, and a DD-2 and DD-5 for quick little pedalboard.

[El Gallo Negro]

FWIW, I'm not totally sure the DD-20 doesn't digitize the dry signal too - I haven't tried one with my own rig - but the DD-2,3,5 and 6 definitely don't. Neither does the Akai Headrush, if looping is a priority for you.



Good thread. There was also some really good info on the A/D/A conversion of the DD20 and DL4 in this old thread:
http://www.thegearpage.net/board/showthread.php?t=231565&highlight=conversion
(http://www.thegearpage.net/board/showthread.php?t=231565&highlight=conversion)

Like one of the earlier posters, the buffer in the DD20 is not my favorite either, but the pedal is just so damn useful and reliable that it's tough to beat, especially given the price.