Sprague Atoms.........

[outtahear]

http://www.el34world.com/Forum/yabb2/nph-YaBB.pl?num=1182110842

;)

Discuss...............

[Blue Strat]

"It ain't the meat it's the motion" :D

[Stokesdead]

Haha

[electroid]

Interesting discussion... Last year the folks at Mojotone suggested that Atoms were being phased out. Their new catalog has a message that contradicts that. In any case, they are getting very expensive and it's time for many of us in the business to start looking at alternatives. I have been using them for years (mainly for marketing reasons). I believe there are other less expensive capacitors of equal or higher quality available but many customers trust only Atoms. For this reason, I still use them. It's just too time consuming to try to change people's mind. Soon, I will start offering another choice at a lower price.

For the record, I've seen 4 failuresthis year of "new" power supply capacitors (that had not been abused). One was an Atom in a vintage Fender another was a Ruby brand in a Diesel. Both were about a year old. The other 2 were CE brand twist lock multi-section cans in Fenders. They were both about 4 years old.

Also, it think it's worth mentioning that just because a manufacturer uses a specific part does not mean it's the highest quality. They have other factors to consider. You can find a lot of lesser quality components in mass produced amps.

[Blue Strat]

I've had several failures with the CE/Antique multipart caps in a relatively small sampling (probably 15 to 20).

[Trout]

http://www.el34world.com/Forum/yabb2/nph-YaBB.pl?num=1182110842

;)

Discuss...............


I saw that last week, IMO it would be very interesting to see a Vintage 60's or 70's Sprague Atom cut open in a similar fashion.

Me personally, I buy spragues low voltage caps for bypass caps, But for axial lead power supply use I generally buy FT from Germany. If I need multisection caps I use JJ when ever possible. Knock on wood, no failures yet.

I used to buy a lot of caps from Just Radios out of Canada. He claims they are made by the OEM supplier for CDE. They seem to work but I always had a question in my mind about them.

Trout

Edit,

Hey Mike? have you ever used any of the custom multisections from Vibroworld?
http://www.vibroworld.com/parts/tech15.html#cans

I see at their website they are back up and running in a limited capacity.
We are still CLOSED temporarily till May 26th. We will open the Online Order system June 25th. NO EMAIL reply. We will reopen our sales office soon. We are in the process of relocating to a larger, more efficient location, to better serve all of our customers.

[Blue Strat]

Edit,

Hey Mike? have you ever used any of the custom multisections from Vibroworld?
http://www.vibroworld.com/parts/tech15.html#cans

I see at their website they are back up and running in a limited capacity.

I've used them in the past. They're small (el cheapo?) caps stuffed in a can. Never had a problem with them but didn't use them very often.

[VacuumVoodoo]

I wonder what kind of warranty ATOMs carry. If you make a warranty claim they'll say you used it outside of specs. What specs? There are no specs in the latest (jan 07) published data sheet (http://www.vishay.com/docs/42038/tvaatom.pdf). No tolerance, no lifetime, no derating vs. temperature, no electrical parameters at all except rated capacitance and voltage. All important data on ripple current and ESR isn't there either. I wouldn't make a design decision based only on a components physical size or pretty logo and color. "That's what has been used since the early days" in case of electrolytics is an argument against them, not in favor. Never used ATOMS and never will.

[mark norwine]

I stopped using Atoms a while back. To date, the *only* failures I've had with brand new electrolytic caps have been Atoms [TVA1716 & TVA1803.1 seem to be the worst]. I've never had a failure with an IC, Xicon, FT, etc.

I know everyone seems to hate IC, but from my POV.....they work just fine.

Early on, right after CE got the Mallory / AeroM machines and began production of multi-section cans, the products were awful. The 20-20-20-20 was especially horrid. The crosstalk between the sections was unacceptably high. But lately, they seem to be much, much better. I've used the 80-40-30-20 in Ampegs quite a lot and have had no issues in the last few years.

[StratTone]

Yeah that is weird. I wonder if haven't open space in the cap has a certain purpose? Anyone?

[LowellH]

I used F&Ts for my first amp build a few weeks ago. I once saw a sliced-open Atom and will never use one. They're bulky too.

I do understand that many people like the Atoms for their sturdy leads.

[JamesO]

The pics are a bit surprising, but don't really mean anything without doing the same thing to other popular caps like Xcions. I just got an order of Xcions though, and I'm glad they're 1/3 of the price :)

[TheAmpNerd]

Once I ran out of my military stash of NOS Mallory's that were
refomed every five years by our favorite Uncle Sam, I thought
CE caps would be pretty good.

You've seen the pics...nothing worse for a little guy to get stung
first by product that had to be removed from amps, but also to
suck up about $170 in defective product of what CE Dist refuses
to stand behind.

You think beta testing is bad, try having to pay for "production"
parts that have yet to pass Alpha testing!

NOTE: Dear CE distribution, I shall be pleased to receive an email
offer of replacement or credit from you to replace the defective parts bearing your name.

[mark norwine]

Huh? Seen what pictures?

What in the world are you talking about?

[jca345]

Anybody actually able to cite some hard facts [measurements/statistics/anything concrete] as to why Sprague ATOMS are supposedly junk? ;)

I'd love to hear them. I have built literally many hundreds of circuits/amplifiers with Sprage ATOMS, Black Gate, Elna Cerafine, Tech-Cap, F&T, Aero, JJ, CE, Illinois, LCR, Hunts, Erie, Xicon, Beyschlag, Sangamo, Nichicon, Mallory, Cornell Dubilier, Elna, SCR/Solen. Literally hundreds of circuits with most brands available. I have never had a single failure with any brand. Not one. Likely reason--because each and every time the cap was properly deployed in the circuit--proper voltages, ripple current, ESR, DA, etc. were all accounted for. In otherwords, proper engineering/design/construction. Most of the cited failures in this and many other threads were most likely caused by an extranneous sources. I am very interested in the hard details surrounding each failure.

It has been considered by some that I build some pretty darn durable, reliable, and good sounding small combo amplifiers on the market. I continue to use ATOMS because of over 15 years of never having a single failure. If I wind up getting a failure, I'll re-consider my position on this after studying the problem in depth--if it ever occurs. Until then, they are 100% an excellent choice in guitar amplifier power supplies--don't let anybody anywhere BS you. Some "Techs" and "Audio Gurus" on the internet have built a kit or two and profess to know it all after doing so. Most have never built an original design from scratch. Some have actually never built an amp at all. IME, most will never admit to having made or caused a mistake regardless. I have been there and done that--made big mistakes--continue to make smaller mistakes--and learn from each one. It's called getting in the trenches and getting your hands dirty. Take the risks. Sometimes you get your ass handed to you. Other times you're handing out the ass. I take the mistakes to the bank. However, the end result is always another killer audio creation built in my little shop that nobody could duplicate. Not a single JCA Circuits amp has ever seen a repair shop in the past 15 years of building custom pieces. When was the last time any of you folks had a filter blow up? I personally haven't yet. If so, I am very interested in hearing about it. There are better explainations/details as to why rather than blanket statements cited in earlier posts in this thread. Please enlighten us on the MTBF rates, manufactuing techniques, chemical impurities, etc. Whatever can be directly measured and thus proven by logic and common sense. If we study up on these types of parameters, we might conclude that correctly manufactured and deployed passives rarely fail outright--unless stress is induced in the component somehow. Stress could be due to aging, but it could also be due to improper operating parameters, etc. Why sepcifically did the part fail?

One power filter repair stands out. EA iAMp800. Beautiful bass amp BTW. The owner said he bought the amp used last year from a Philly area boutique store. He opened it up soon after buying it and discovered that one of the 10,000uF/100V filters was ruptured. He has been playing it in this condition for the better part of a year--why he didn't elect to have it repaired sooner I'll never know:nono. Why the store owner didn't realize that this 800 watt beast wasn't nearly up to snuff before selling it is also beyond me. The owner recently decided to have me repair his amp. As it turns out, the manufacturer received some bunk caps from their supplier which did not live up to their ratings and each ruptured in turn. They were labeled incorrectly by their cap supplier. So I replaced the [2] 10,000uF/100V caps with [3] brand new 6,800uF/100V caps since there was another set of pads to accomodate the extra can. The amplifier worked [very inefficiently] for a better part of the year in it's crippled state. Now it really performs like a heavyweight and can basically decapitate audience members @ 50 feet with 800 Watts RMS. There is my "Bad Power Supply Filter" story of the day.

[VacuumVoodoo]

+1 Jason,

I feel called to the stand since I said "I never used them and never will". Why? Like I said, I am not able to verify a design because of lack of pertinent data. Would you design in a component that you don't really know anything about? See ATOM datasheet (http://www.vishay.com/docs/42038/tvaatom.pdf) , that's all there is.

Ok, ATOMs have their reputation and history but there's nothing to verify physical component against. We can only assume that Sprague/Vishay are serious enough and supply at least "as good as old" product even if it is a different capacitor repackaged in ATOM casing. So why not say so and publish relevant data?

There are 450V and 500V electrolytic caps out there that will have lifetime in excess of 200.000 hrs at 85 degC or 500.000 hrs at 60 degC ambient temperature in first ripple filter position. Documented in published datasheets. With these in supply filter an amp will never need a cap job.
Use "wrong" 450V electrolytic cap in that same application and you might not get past 500 hrs.

As you said: proper deployment of components is the key to rugged design. Kudos to you.

PS. What about pots? Would you prefer pots with 20.000 revolutions lifetime or be satisfied with 5.000 as long as it says "mil specs"? Planning to take your amp on 8G roller coaster at 35.000ft in an F18?:D

[Rosewood]

God forgive me for bringing this up but what do the audiophile guys use?
Btw, never had an Atom fail myself, never, not yet anyway.

[VacuumVoodoo]

God forgive me for bringing this up but what do the audiophile guys use?
Btw, never had an Atom fail myself, never, not yet anyway.

"Continuous duty polypropylene electric motor capacitors", of course relabeled and in a sexy wrapping.......

[Dana-L]

http://mysite.verizon.net/koitopia/RAHandbook-04.jpg

[plexi67]

I too quit useing the Atoms a while back, when i started getting bad ones.
Some were the smaller black bodied ones,like for bypass caps. I have had some bad ones in the blue ones too. I wish i could find the pic someone posted that got some caps,and the covering/label had been put on the caps backwards.

[justonwo]

Just out of curiosity, why does it matter that the actual cap is smaller than what you see on the outside? Does larger translate to better?

[VacuumVoodoo]

Just out of curiosity, why does it matter that the actual cap is smaller than what you see on the outside? Does larger translate to better?

I for one wouldn't like a small cap to rattle inside an oversized case. Also, if the actual cap doesn't have direct physical contact with the aluminum case it will not dissipate heat build up well.
Power transformers: larger is generally better.

[teleamp]

"Continuous duty polypropylene electric motor capacitors", of course relabeled and in a sexy wrapping.......

The polished ones sound soooooo good, lol.


MikeY

[teleamp]

I too quit useing the Atoms a while back, when i started getting bad ones.
Some were the smaller black bodied ones,like for bypass caps. I have had some bad ones in the blue ones too. I wish i could find the pic someone posted that got some caps,and the covering/label had been put on the caps backwards.

I've had about 3 of the blue ones with bad internal solder connections.

Mike

[outtahear]

Just out of curiosity, why does it matter that the actual cap is smaller than what you see on the outside? Does larger translate to better?

Oh, YOUBETCHA! Especially on the web; the same rookies who can tell how goodly an amp sounds by how prettily the wires are arranged, will swear that Sprague atoms are the best caps 'cause they're big, and American made!:AOK










Seriously:jo
(I should print off excerpts of some of the e-mails I get here..)

[Wakarusa]

Oh, YOUBETCHA! Especially on the web; the same rookies who can tell how goodly an amp sounds by how prettily the wires are arranged, will swear that Sprague atoms are the best caps 'cause they're big, and American made!:AOK


:munch

[Trout]

Oh, YOUBETCHA! Especially on the web; the same rookies who can tell how goodly an amp sounds by how prettily the wires are arranged, will swear that Sprague atoms are the best caps 'cause they're big, and American made!:AOK










Seriously:jo
(I should print off excerpts of some of the e-mails I get here..)

1st off, Agree 100% with the above and would like to also add,


The reason that the Sprague's are so large is because the internal shell of the cap can is coated with C37 Lacquer.
My spectral analysis of the Sprague Atom has revealed that nearly invisible coating is actually the real secret behind the legend!

To be certain not to scuff the .004ml layer of C37 during assembly they simply opted to use a larger can.

If you Google C37 lacquer, it will be very easy to locate sources of information on the amazing influences of this compound.
http://www.ennemoser.com/

This stuff is "THE" miracle around sound perfection.
Put it on your car, It sounds mean
Put it on your guitar, INSTANT MoJo
Hell, Dentists are now putting it on fillings to improve unwanted tooth noise during chewing.:D

Edit: Rumor has it a well known Indiana speaker source uses it as an additive to their speaker doping. That would explain the creamey feel and extended frequeny range.

My Gosh I am so F. O. S. today! :AOK

[outtahear]

The reason that the Sprague's are so large is because the internal shell of the cap can is coated with C37 Lacquer.

If you Google C37 lacquer, it will be very easy to locate sources of information on the amazing influences of this compound.
http://www.ennemoser.com/

This stuff is "THE" miracle around sound perfection.




EXACTLY!

It's also the same lacquer used by Mullard/Philips on the exterior of the infamous "Mustard" capacitor. It was dipped instead of sprayed to avoid electron standing waves that would have been caused by neat, parallel surfaces. The result-rich harmonics.

And THAT's why Mustard caps are the secret to vintage tone-even in an amp w/non vintage spec trannies ,new production tubes, and old Eminence/Fender speakers, you can NAIL the tone of an old Marshall!!

(Don't even get me started on vintage english fuses.....);)

[teleamp]

Oh, YOUBETCHA! Especially on the web; the same rookies who can tell how goodly an amp sounds by how prettily the wires are arranged.....

Seriously:jo
(I should print off excerpts of some of the e-mails I get here..)

Yeah, the lead dress in this amp is beautiful, so its gotta sound great:cool:.














For those that don't know, lead dress has nothing to do with appearance, and everything to do with rules.


MikeY

[Trout]

Yeah, the lead dress in this amp is beautiful, so its gotta sound great:cool:.














For those that don't know, lead dress has nothing to do with appearance, and everything to do with rules.


MikeY

Hey, there is a huge difference in lead dress and wires arranged in a pretty fashion.

Pretty is Pretty, cute colors, fancy braids, Just for Show but No Mojo.

Now proper lead dress is an art form, I really do not think we should confuse the 2.:D

I think we are all on the same page, Somebody pass me a Bud Lite in a 1/2qt can painted with C37! LOL

[outtahear]

Nah, Just tie everything together w/tie wraps!

Get the board color right too....... :D

[VacuumVoodoo]

Don't forget to twist heater wires clockwise if in northern hemisphere and counterclockwise in the Antipodes. If not then you must put your US or European made amp upside down when gigging down under and vice versa.
If your amp has DC heater supply it will have to be aligned perpendicular to earth magnetic field to minimize secondary electron emission in the tubes, believe me, I kid you not.

[Trout]

Nah, Just tie everything together w/tie wraps!

Get the board color right too....... :D


Never Never Never Use Red G10 board with orange Alpha stranded wire unless you use green tie wraps! The green tie wraps cancel heater noise.

That said, The bown alpha wire has better EVH vibe, but tends to cause excessive feedback.:NUTS

[outtahear]

That said, The bown alpha wire has better EVH vibe, but tends to cause excessive feedback.:NUTS

But only w/the NON-irradiated PVC insulation.

(learnt it from Ken Fischer. Or was it Bobby?)

[Trout]

But only w/the NON-irradiated PVC insulation.

(learnt it from Ken Fischer. Or was it Bobby?)

Neither, It was Amy!! LOL

[Trout]

BTW,

My thinking is a pair of these on my Tweed Deluxe will give me a much more woody sound than any greenback.

Face it, C37 IS the ultimate answer for anything audio.
http://www.referenceaudiomods.com/Merchant2/merchant.mvc?Screen=PROD&Product_Code=NOB_C37_C

http://www.referenceaudiomods.com/images/products/ac/knobc.jpg

But my major question is, will I need 3?? 1 for each Volume control and 1 for the Tone control?
Trout