Advantages/Disadvantages of Fretless

[SonicGator]

OK, let me preface this by saying I am a guitar player, but since Bass is the dominant instrument to use a Fretless neck in non-classical music, what are the inherent advantages/disadvantages to using a fretless neck?

[fyrwyr]

Tough question; if you have the time to get a feel for it and like the tones you can get with it you may just get hooked like I did. But most of the time I still would grab a fretted for most of the songs I play bass on. It is not for everyone that's for sure...

[GDking]

OK, let me preface this by saying I am a guitar player, but since Bass is the dominant instrument to use a Fretless neck in non-classical music, what are the inherent advantages/disadvantages to using a fretless neck?

I have heard some really good fretless guitar players, and although as a musician I am impressed at the sheer precision and technical skill they employ in chording and hitting notes on key, I find the tone of a fretless guitar sounds like crap. Not enough note definition.

I figure if I don't like it with a guy that is a lot better than me playing the thing, I never had to think too hard if it was the medium for me.

The funny thing is I have never heard a guy playing fretless guitar with a lot of effects on it to doing spacey cool things. The only guys I have seen play fretless guitar have played near clean. I guess to let you know, "hey man dig me doing 3 positions of an Am6add9 mid solo perfectly FRETLESS you bitch".

A fretless bass on the other hand I think sounds awesome for a lot of styles of music.

I guess the advantage of a fretless neck is with a good ear and technique, you do not suffer from the intonation woes of the guitar.

Disadvantages you lose note definition and clarity without frets. In lower frequency bass notes I think this is a good thing for stuff that you want a jazzy bass sound, in higher frequency guitar stuff, I do not like it.

I bet though with some effects and the right music, fretless guitar would be awesome. I just have not heard it yet.

[musicofanatic5]

With a fretless bass you don't have the punch to the attack of the note compared to a fretted bass. 9 out of ten fretless bassists I hear are out of tune, and boy does that hurt my ears.

[jzucker]

Fretless is more expressive but takes much more practice to play in tune. Even with fretlines. Also, it's hard to sightread on fretless. You lose the ability to do traditional slapping and popping on fretless though I've heard guys get good alternative slap tones out of fretless.

Take a listen to Gary Willis for a great example of fretless bass playing.

Or Matt Garrison...or Jaco...

Playing out of tune is strictly a matter of lack of ear or practicing. A violin has even more potential for intonation problems than bass. Keep that in mind...

[jzucker]

With a fretless bass you don't have the punch to the attack of the note compared to a fretted bass.

Tell that to Gary Willis...

[RickC]

Long ago, I had a fretless bass built by Albey Balgochian of Boston. Among others, he built that cool fretless that Darryl Jones was holding in those old Hartke ads. On my bass, Albey had installed a metal plate with a curved top at the body end of the fretboard that acted as sort of "fret" there. The plate was on a sprung hinge so it could be flipped up and down easily; when up, it didn't interfere with fretless playing, but if the bass was slapped or popped, the string would strike it and provide the desired snap. It worked quite well, and I'm surprised I never saw any other builders use this idea; maybe because slap-and-pop went out of fashion shortly thereafter :rolleyes:

re adv/dis, the obvious downer is playing in tune. As has been mentioned, there is a lot of painful intonation out there by guys who probably shouldn't be playing fretless in public. But on the plus side, there are colors in the fretless that you just can't get any other way.

I was involved in an "unplugged" situation a few weeks ago and had to use a borrowed fretless ABG. I was never a strong fretless player anyway, and hadn't touched one in years. At first it was quite dodgey, but I found that by concentrating, and by simplifying the lines I was using, I started to get some music coming out of the thing. It was quite rewarding; so much so that I've been inspired to start exploring the fretless again.

Btw, here's Albey's website:

http://www.abasses.com/

/rick

[Thor]

I agree with the above posters - playing in tune is TOUGH!!!, I am still nowhere near being able to play out with a fretless. The pay off is the expressivness. There is a very warm/orgainic vibe. A great fretless baseline really feels alive. Taste and restraint are extremely important, as the clairty is somewhat less. It is a real blast to just play the right note and work it a bit.

For what it's worth - if you are going to venture into fretless - get one with lines. I didn't, and I think that it's made it much more difficult for me to play with propper intonation.

Cheers,

Edward

[RickC]

For what it's worth - if you are going to venture into fretless - get one with lines. I didn't, and I think that it's made it much more difficult for me to play with propper intonation.


+1

I've heard some express the notion that going without lines forces you to use your ear and develop a more integrated style. Sounds good on paper, but in practice I haven't found it to be true. Electric is often used in situations where it's hard to hear yourself clearly, and you can always not look at the lines if you want. But having the lines there to orient and check yourself occasionally is invaluable. Heck, I still have to look on fretted bass sometimes.

Lines are nice, but I think side lines are even better. On my Albey bass, I made my own side-of-the-fretboard line markers out of sticky reflective tape. Worked great, and I had the best of both worlds: lines markers, and that cool clean-slab-board look.

/rick

[LL1]

i have an upright and a 5 string fretless acoustic /electric and one advantage is getting that dvvvvvv ,bmmmm and brrrrrr slide into the note sound.
Sorry I could describe the sound effects any other way but I have a feeling you know what I mean. :AOK

[Thor]

Lines are nice, but I think side lines are even better. On my Albey bass, I made my own side-of-the-fretboard line markers out of sticky reflective tape. Worked great, and I had the best of both worlds: lines markers, and that cool clean-slab-board look.

/rick
[/quote]



That is a fantastic idea!!! I think I might have to give it a whirl!

Cheers,

Edward

[jzucker]

side lines or dots don't work well on the high strings in higher fret positions.

I figure if Gary Willis can use lines, you can too. :)

[RickC]

old bass player adage:

"there's no money to be made above the 5th fret"

:)

[RickC]

side lines or dots don't work well on the high strings in higher fret positions.

I figure if Gary Willis can use lines, you can too. :)

as a more serious response, I have nothing against lines per se; in my case, it was a solution for a bass that didn't have lines to begin with.

Also, in practice, even lines aren't the end-all. It still requires rather precise fingertip placement to get the note in tune. I think of lines, side-markers, etc as visual clues; they get you in the ballpark, but there is still a matter of art and technique involved in getting proper intonation to happen. From that perspective, I've found the side marker idea to work pretty well, even high up the neck.

Finally, and I'm sure I'll get berated for saying this, but intonation seems to get less critical high up the neck. It's harder for sure; maybe that's why it seems to be tolerated. But even the monster upright players seem to get a little dodgey with intonation up in the thumb position. It's almost a characteristic of that sound, a common "color".

/rick

[tkozal]

""MWWWWWAAAAAAAAHHHHHHH"

I love it, can't get it with anything else....

[The Golden Boy]

old bass player adage:

"there's no money to be made above the 5th fret"

:)

7th. I need my open string octaves...

[The Golden Boy]

I don't dig the fretless sound.

When I was a kid I got a fretless Yamaha. I played that thing all the time- a friend worked in that store. I finally bought it, and I loved it. I played that thing around the house all the time. All the wacky neat things you could do... Then I tried playing with some people. Painful. I sold it. Don't miss it.

There's guys that make it work for them, but for everything I listen to and play- I hear it with the sound of a fretted bass.

[AlanHendrick]

i have an upright and a 5 string fretless acoustic /electric and one advantage is getting that dvvvvvv ,bmmmm and brrrrrr slide into the note sound.
Sorry I could describe the sound effects any other way but I have a feeling you know what I mean. :AOK

Anyone with fretless bass experience knows EXACTLY what you mean. That was precisely what I was looking for when I bought a fretless fender jazz. It takes some getting used to, but on a low and slow song it sounds unbelievable.

[Thor]

Finally, and I'm sure I'll get berated for saying this, but intonation seems to get less critical high up the neck. It's harder for sure; maybe that's why it seems to be tolerated. But even the monster upright players seem to get a little dodgey with intonation up in the thumb position. It's almost a characteristic of that sound, a common "color".

/rick


I think that you should be cheered for that response! It helps us all in terms of how we feel about our own playing. I agree that some of that "dodginess" is part of the package of the higher position riffage. Ever notice how those bass solos usually have nothing else but the drums happening....;)

Now we can all return to enjoying our BRRRRRUUUAH, RRRHAAAAH and MWWWAAAAAH!

Cheers,

Edward

[jzucker]

that's totally wrong. The intonation is much less critical in the lower register. That's as you get further up the neck, there's less room to work with and intonation becomes more critical.

[Thor]

that's totally wrong. The intonation is much less critical in the lower register. That's as you get further up the neck, there's less room to work with and intonation becomes more critical.


Intonation becomes much tricker above the 12th fret, and I completely agree that there is a lot less room for error. IMHO when a bassist is doing their job and holding down the bottom, flights of fancy in the upper positions should be very few and far between. FWIIW, if I am playing a piece that calls for more work in the upper positions, I am reaching for a fretted bass to make sure that it is on. :o

cheers,

Edward

[RickC]

that's totally wrong. The intonation is much less critical in the lower register. That's as you get further up the neck, there's less room to work with and intonation becomes more critical.

different use of the term "critical". As in, up high up the neck, precise intonation seems to be less musically important. I base (bass?) my opinion on years of listening to solos by all the great masters of the upright bass - Carter, LaFaro, Chambers, etc - all of whom seem to stretch the intonation envelope when they solo in the higher registers.

/rick

[jzucker]

different use of the term "critical". As in, up high up the neck, precise intonation seems to be less musically important. I base (bass?) my opinion on years of listening to solos by all the great masters of the upright bass - Carter, LaFaro, Chambers, etc - all of whom seem to stretch the intonation envelope when they solo in the higher registers.

/rick

That's because the intonation in the upper register is more sensative. They are not deliberately stretching it. It's just harder to play in tune up there.

Some better examples of upright bass soloing and intonation in the upper register might be bromberg, pederson, george mraz, etc.

[RickC]

I understand, and I'm not arguing (really :))

It's just been my impression that upright players use that tuning dissonance in the upper registers for color; in fact, I think in some cases it *is* deliberate, that they are trying to exaggerate it. And it's easier to sound out-of-tune up there than it is not to.

Btw, an upright scale is typically around 42". If *those* guys have trouble playing in tune up there at that length, how can us mere mortals have any hope on a typical 34" electric, where the problem is even worse?

All back to the original point re the effectiveness of side dots as a reference high up on the neck; they are not as precise, you have to compensate for the visual distortion, but given the limitations of fretless electric anyway they seem to be quite sufficient; at least that's what I've found.

/rick

[jzucker]

jaco and willis don't seem to have a problem with lines. The guys you mention were great bassists but not particularly great soloists in the horn-line sort of vein. I certainly don't think they would have chosen to play out of tune for the most part.

[RickC]

I was just giving examples. Pederson, whom you cited, is certainly a player whom I've heard play seemingly out-of-tune up the neck.

Did Jaco play solos up there; I can't think of any. He was inhuman anyway :)

Christian McBride may be the only upright player I've never heard play a note out of tune. He seems to be from another planet as well...

/rick

[Zhangliqun]

When I had a fretless I found it was easier to intonate than I thought it would be, at least toward the lower end of the neck. Intonating up high is definitely harder but it doesn't seem to sound quite as bad if you're off a little bit.

[Bassomatic]

There's sooo much potential for altered (non-equal tempered) pitch craft with fretless. Think Mick Karn and Percy Jones. And Tony Levin, at times ("Only Us" line/solo from Gabriel's "Us", for example).

Also, properly played double and triple stops will *always* sound better than their fretted equivalents because they're more "in-tune" (physically speaking - rationally intonated intervals, perfectly executed, will not produce audible beating).

[Jim S]

One can slap and achieve a great tone on fretless: Michael Manring
.
.

[ghoti]

Fretless means you're always in tune if you have a decent set of ears :P

That said, the sound isn't quite as "sharp" and is a bit more mellow, because usually you're using flat-wound strings and your fingers don't cut off the string vibration as cleanly as a fret does (fingers are softer than nickel or steel.

I had a fretless Guild Pilot a few years ago that I had to sell to pay rent. I liked the things I could do on it; only frustrating thing was sometimes it felt like I couldn't get as sharp an attack on some stuff that I could with round-wound strings and frets.

Frets let you have a bit more lazy of a technique as well, especially if you have really large hands like mine. I have a 6-string fretted bass right now with a 35" scale and I can hit every half-step in first (or half, don't quite remember) position with one finger per...on a fretless this kind of technique would be much more difficult...

[jzucker]

who says you're using flatwounds? :) Almost everyone I know uses roundwounds on fretless assuming you're going for the jaco/willis/garrison/caron type of sound.

[ghoti]

who says you're using flatwounds? :) Almost everyone I know uses roundwounds on fretless assuming you're going for the jaco/willis/garrison/caron type of sound.


Roundwounds tend to beat up the board more...and coming from a classical background many will be using flatwounds (and fretless) for a closer feel to a stand-up bass. (all the four main bowed string instruments actually). I kind of wish I'd tried roundwounds on my old fretless back in the day though.

[jzucker]

Roundwounds tend to beat up the board more...and coming from a classical background many will be using flatwounds (and fretless) for a closer feel to a stand-up bass. (all the four main bowed string instruments actually). I kind of wish I'd tried roundwounds on my old fretless back in the day though.

Flatwounds don't sound more like upright bass. They do not growl like roundwounds. Jaco, Caron, Willis, Manring, Oteil, Grey, Garrison all use roundwounds. I can't think of any significant fretless electric players who use flats.

[jbird327]

I have been playing fretless since the mid 70s - Fender P with side dots. I am using half rounds and I don't use a pick. I love the mellow, deep tones and really don't have a problem with intonation but for me it requires a lot of concentration. I also change strings often. There is a violinist in the band so between the two of us, it needs to be very accurate or it's a mess. I have a fretted bass but rarely use it. As far as effects go, currently a TRex Squeezer, in the past a Morley Flanger. When I first started, it took a few years to get comfortable with the intonation, the more I stressed over it the worse it sounded.

[teleman1]

In my expereince there are two things that kept me not playing with perfect intonation. #1 is lines or dots on the fretboard. I find it is far better to play by ear. I make corrections so fast;otherwise valuable time is used LOOKING for the spot. I don't look and just use my ear.

#2 I went with the flow and got roundwounds. Problem is when you slide into note and it is a fst run,the grooves slow you down. That messed with my intonation.

So flatwounds and no fret markings helped me.

ANd however it does it. I am a better bass player especially when I go to frets;everything seems effortless and its easier to play in the groove.

[Bassomatic]

Flatwounds don't sound more like upright bass. They do not growl like roundwounds. Jaco, Caron, Willis, Manring, Oteil, Grey, Garrison all use roundwounds. I can't think of any significant fretless electric players who use flats.

You'll still get mwaah from flats, though I've always just paid the wear and tear price with rounds for my fretlesses. Half rounds are a reasonable compromise.

Jack - have you ever actually played a good bass with flats through a good rig?

[jzucker]

You'll still get mwaah from flats, though I've always just paid the wear and tear price with rounds for my fretlesses. Half rounds are a reasonable compromise.

Jack - have you ever actually played a good bass with flats through a good rig?

Yes I have. I just don't like the sound of flats on fretless. I like flats on a precision though. If they're dead, they really have that vintage vibe to them...

[jay42]

The Antares atr1-a isn't that expensive used or new. Turn it on after the first set...or couple beers.

Ebony or Pau Ferro/Ironwood/Morado?

[RickC]

I think I posted this somewhere before around here, but I'll repeat:

flats on a fretless Rickenbacker - curiously refreshing uprighty tone

/rick

[Soul Man]

Great smooth tone but somewhat difficult to get used to without the frets (at first)

[jzucker]

Novak's design has nothing to do with a guitar not being intonated properly. His design allows each string to have a different scale length. And you can get fretless instruments with that design. And they do have lines.

The fact that lines only get you in the ballpark can't be emphasized enough. Fretted instruments by design are off a little bit. When you look innovative technologies like Ralph Novack's fanned fret designs, you see how a guitar should be set up when truly intonated properly. Maybe we could design a fretless with those type of lines on it. It might be a little more accurate. I know Dingwall uses his theories, not sure if he does a fretless with that in mind though.

I just bought my first fretless (cheap Jaco Squier w/lines) and I can't dare bring it on the gig at this point.

Great discussion though. First post and I look forward to many more great discussions in this positive environment.